April 29, 2022 Show with Gary DeMar on “Taking Off Your Tradition’s Eyeglasses” PLUS Matt Kenitzer on “Our Theology is Inescapable & Will Influence our Lives”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity.

Living on the planet earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 29th day

of.

April.

2022 the last April episode of iron sharpens iron radio for

April this year.

And I'm thrilled that we have two guests that I'm eagerly looking forward to interviewing.

For the first hour we have one of my favorite guests, and it's obvious that he is one of my audience's

favorite guests Gary DeMar.

He is going to be discussing taking off your traditions eyeglasses to see things biblically and.

The second hour will be joined by Matt Kennet sir, who is senior

pastor of St. John's Reformed Church of Freidensburg, Pennsylvania.

And he's going to be addressing.

Our theology is inescapable and will influence our lives.

But first it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Gary DeMar.

It's.

Always great to talk to you brother.

And Gary is the president or yes, he is the president of American vision and.

He has written many books over 35 book titles and has been a

featured guest on nearly every major news media outlet.

And as I said, we are going to be addressing taking off your traditions eyeglasses to see things biblically and.

It.

Seems that we who are reformed and I'm not excluding reformed

people of.

Being.

Guiltless of this either you have to make that clear, but we

very often run into especially if you're talking with.

Our dear friends and brothers and sisters in the independent fundamentalist movement.

Who might even be accurately described on many occasions as hyper literalists.

It's fascinating how often they will accuse We who are reformed or

we who do not share their dispensationalist eschatology.

That we spiritualize everything in the Bible.

We allegorize everything and they're the ones that take things literally when in reality on some of the most.

Pivotal.

Passages in the scriptures.

Some of the most essential passages in the scripture.

It is they that are guilty of that themselves and are Filtering

everything that they believe and teach unconsciously perhaps through their traditions on

Theological and eschatological lenses and.

And.

It is quite an amazing thing to experience having a conversation with somebody that is.

Unconsciously doing that over and over and over again.

Would you agree with that assessment that I just made?

Yeah, I think there are a couple of elements to this.

There was a Read

that they have

become a nation of biblical

things about their and People say

go along with those things without ever checking the Bible Itself to see whether or not the Bible

has to say to the

Apostle Paul to see

whether these things are so.

And I was when you called me.

Yes yesterday.

I was up in Huntsville, Alabama.

I was about to go and give a give a talk to a to a number of people and I

thought someone asked me the question, you know when hey when I'm talking with my Dispensational friends

on eschatology because

oftentimes when people come out of a particular position, let's say out of dispensationalism and and into

More of a form aspect of eschatology or if somebody Changes from

Arminianism to Calvinism and so forth.

The question is how do you talk to somebody who?

Was in your you were in their camp before.

What what do you do?

I said what you kind of take the Colombo approach if you remember the

detective Colombo.

Yes, and he was and he was always not very pretentious at all in fact people

didn't take him very seriously because he had this rumpled a trench coat on and he had this cigar that never

seemed to be lit and he drove this old car and And and what he would do is simply ask

questions.

And by the way, I said I said the Colombo character sure he might give me a lot of RCS.

Boy, I can't believe you said it because I was about to come out of my mouth.

Other than other than the rumpled clothing Mannerisms and his approach

the teaching was very much Colombo esque.

Oh, yeah, and soon as I said that I mean everybody got it.

Everybody laughed.

I think there was one guy there.

Later on he was from he was from Spain.

I saw him, you know nodding shaking his head with his daughter like I've never even heard of Colombo.

I don't know if he was just kidding or everybody understood the character what was going on I said, that's the

approach I take.

I don't go headstrong in with somebody and just hammer them with this.

I just started asking him questions.

It's like where in the Bible does it say Jesus will reign on the earth for a thousand years?

Or where in the Bible does it say that the church is going to be taken up into heaven?

Before during or after a seven -year period I go in

there essentially with questions and it's kind of

just took on the numerous.

He has questions of people and you've got that

what they were thinking about things.

So I Think that's that's

with a lot of discussions with people that they don't know the Bible very well.

They Jesus deals with on about you've heard it as

you've heard it said you've heard it said you've heard it said or you know.

You've heard it was written etc.

And so this say this lack of Bible reading explains why Americans

Know so little about the Bible that is there

can say they are Christians.

But only four in ten know that Jesus according to the Bible Bible delivered the Sermon on the Mount

Named Matthew Mark Luke the New Testament.

While many do not know that Jesus had twelve disciples or that he was born in Bethlehem in addition.

A large majority of Americans believe that the Ten Commandments are still valid rules for living today.

Following exactly what those rules are.

So I think I think this is where we are with a lot of people now that you're not going to find that among.

You know some of the more popular know their Bible.

But there are a lot of people who go along with popular teachers and as a result of that They don't really check the Bible for

themselves to see where these things are.

So

believe

that in order to put all these things together.

Then we come up with that doctrine right.

And I must quickly add that the vast majority of Non

Calvinist or even anti Calvinist independent fundamentalist Baptists know their Bible

very well.

But they don't always know very well what it actually means.

I.

Could still remember engraved in my memory.

Having a discussion with a friend he's still a dear friend who is an independent fundamentalist King

James only.

A.

Fundamentalist Baptist pastor and he was trying to in our conversation

refute the idea of definite atonement or limited atonement as it's

often called and he brought up John 129 and

He said John the Baptist Said when Jesus was coming toward him to be

baptized John the Baptist said Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the

sin of the world.

And I said, okay.

Well you've emphasized that word world.

But how about if you read it this way?

Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

What's the more important aspect of that?

That sentence when you take it into biblical context.

Is it more important to rightly understand?

What takes away the sin that means or What your definition

in context of the world means when we already know that there are?

Clear instances in the Bible when the world does not mean every single human being that ever lived or ever will

live.

So it's kind of an interesting thing where the I think that's an evidence where you have somebody.

Clearly reading something through a lens.

That is preventing them from seeing the most powerful element of that passage or other passages.

Yeah, and yeah, of course you go in on John's gospel and Jesus deals with a Samaritan

Samaritan woman and you begin to see what the understanding of the word world means there that the gospel Isn't

just meant for Jews, but it's meant for Samaritans and other people as well.

Yeah, so yeah, you're right so it's and it's and I always use this little

phrase with people, you know Judas went out and hanged himself.

Go down and do likewise and whatever they'll do is do quickly because there is no God.

Where you can take a you can string Bible verses together.

Lift those Bible verses out of their context their immediate context and broader context and you can make the Bible say

anything.

Passages are all found in the Bible and yet when you when you string them together outside of their context They mean

something completely completely different.

And so the first, you know.

So the first thing is, you know.

You you've got to know what the what the Bible what the Bible says and I often times and I speak on a on a difficult

Topic kind of a new audience.

I Give them a little bite and it kind of dampens

people make about how can you say that and so like here's a question Noah's Ark landed on Mount

Ararat true or false and Most people say true.

Now these aren't doctrinal things.

These things aren't these things aren't going to you know,

you're the Bible say and.

So most people say well, it's true.

Well.

If you actually read the text that says in the seventh month on the 17th day of the month the Ark rested upon the

the mountains of Ararat.

Genesis chapter 8 verse 4.

And we talked we here today about Noah's Ark found on Mount Ararat.

Well, it's the mountains of Ararat.

So it's a range of mountains or years and years

ago.

The guy goes into a.

He he asked the question about who cut off

Samson and made

him that Samson sleep on her knees.

And called for a man and had him shave off the seven locks of his hair.

You can go on with with with this type of thing.

One of my one

of my goes before those before

destructors before a fall.

These are topics I know something about me.

I don't do this with anybody.

You got to really know your stuff if you're going to do something like this.

If you just ask questions of them where in the Bible does it say that and on the basis of that?

That's your first step and it's amazing.

I found people I've talked to about this and generally they said, you know.

They were sitting under some famous Pastor who they really they really support

where it's found in the Bible and it's amazing the kind of reaction I get.

What are the some of the main areas in and all the decades you have been

writing about certain elements of

Reform theology.

That would include your post -millennialism.

And of course that would even divide you amongst other professing reformed Christians because

It is probably unless you know something.

I don't do I think post -millennialism is Today even amongst reformed people a minority view

Although it is growing and very popular.

It seems to me that on millennialism is the more dominant amongst reformed denominations.

But what are the things that strike you as being the most prominent things?

That people who should know better are reading the Bible they might even know it

by heart and and are able to Cite it without even cite many

passages of it at length without even looking at an open Bible and yet they're reading through

their traditions and presuppositions that are altering the actual

Belief that was intended by the authors and and let me immediately

say that I'm not claiming that I don't have traditions and I think that the Moment that

somebody does that the moment of Christian says I don't have a tradition at all.

I go by the Bible alone I think that they are revealing that they don't really understand themselves very well.

But we all are in some ways importing a presupposition that is

altering what the Bible says because even amongst those who are theologically

Nearly identical there's still differences.

I mean you and I differ over Baptism we you believe in infant baptism, and I

believe in believer only baptism and we could go on and on.

But but what are the some of the things that are clear examples in your opinion that are primary

areas where people are?

Even biblically literate people are looking through the lenses of their tradition.

Well, I think we have to also make a distinction about you know, some some differences of opinion are differences

of Interpretation.

I mean if there were a passage that says Infants should be baptized.

This would be very easy or a passage that says only adults should be baptized.

That would be easy to and I think same thing with so

-called millennium, which is built on Revelation chapter 20.

And this is where I separate myself from even my own post post millennial friend.

Is that I don't think Revelation 20 is dealing with the Millennium as we understand it.

Premillennialism maintains that Jesus is going to rain on the earth for a thousand years yet when you read Revelation chapter 20

Revelation chapter 20 doesn't say anything about Jesus raining on the earth.

There's nothing about rebuilding the temple animal sacrifices taking place again a period of

Kind of a utopian a utopian period those elements aren't found in Revelation

chapter 20.

Now you might be able to make the case.

Well, Jesus is going to rain on the earth for a thousand for that thousand years.

But you can't make it on Revelation chapter 20, and I don't think post -millennialist can.

Either not all millennialists after 20.

But then the question is is Revelation chapter 20 even dealing with the millennial question at all.

So there's there there are different elements to all this but some of the more basic ones since you know, I

deal with eschatology.

One is of course when you tell somebody and I don't go up to somebody

and say well, I don't believe the rapture.

I don't believe in the rapture.

That's not the way you I approach things even Ken Gentry uses the word when he's explaining.

His eschatological view, but he's obviously viewing it in a different way than the dispensationalist would.

Yeah, yeah, I Think RC Sproul does does that back?

No, the thing I did yesterday I think someone else that brought up up to me after my talk that RC Sproul uses the word

rapture.

I I I don't because the I know

Odds, oh and you could use the word rapture has

been used to describe.

What you and I would say would be the consummating or the final?

Physical return of Jesus Christ at the end of history

today.

And this is another thing you have to ask somebody is you say you believe in the rapture?

What what is what do you believe about

the church off the earth?

I said no, can you give me a book a Bible verse that says that and I might go well first Thessalonians

chapter 4.

Let's say that off

the earth before during or after a seven -year period

and the Antichrist and

then all a Reap and many

of them look at me like I'm from Mars and like what do you what are you talking about?

I said, well, that's the rapture position.

This is the thing.

They they've heard it said they've heard it said about the rapture that Jesus is going to return before all hell breaks loose.

You know Jesus and we're going to be taken up into heaven.

And we're going to we're going to

the the wrath being a lot of

people don't know I get them to try

to define that the term for me and that's you know,

how how is that doctrine built?

Where does where does the seven years come from and they don't they don't have a clue most of them Don't have a clue where that

there was even seven years involved in this thing.

So where did it come from now the more students would say that's Daniel 70th week.

I said, well, where'd that come from?

I thought what happened to the 69 weeks?

Well, they'll say well, there's a gap between the 69th and the 70th week.

I said, where does it say that there's a gap between the time?

So you just keep going on with it now you've got a you have to kind of know these things and you know, what I know the pitfalls of

another position and that's somebody who Was really really a student really know the dispensational system.

Well, he and I would be would be debating these things and explain why there's a gap and

you know, etc, etc, etc.

But the basic personal and

Bible prophecy.

Are you know, I've seen they're trusting the people there.

Why do you hear people today that

all the signs all the signs of That for the return of Jesus for the rapture the second

coming of words you got you got Russia

and prophecy.

You got Israel back in the land and I said wait, wait, wait a minute.

I thought you were dispensationalist.

And they said well, I am a dispensationalist.

They'll say I said, but apparently you don't know your dispensational system very well.

So what do you mean?

Well, according to dispensationalism the rapture is an any -moment event.

That is Jesus could return at any moment and Jesus could have returned any moment throughout church

history it's a sign list event and it's funny you go and you read a lot of

these these Dispensational writers and they're

telling us that the rapture might be near that and that's something that

many many Christians have no idea is.

Against teaching about signs, but then you can't you can't sell prophecy books if there are no signs.

That the rapture could come at any moment back because of this imminent any

moment Jesus could have any

time during the book of Acts.

And any time during the 2nd century the 3rd century the 4th century the

phase would be irrelevant.

Concerning a sign for a dispensation sign list event and

I had a and he understood

that doctrines.

It won't have to be booted out of the land again and be brought brought

believing.

Because you can't say Israel in the land today is a sign because we're living in what's called the

church age today.

And no prophecy is being fulfilled within the church age.

The whole system is very very confused very confusing and people believe these

things because.

It's pretty exciting.

It's exciting that we're living in the last days and Jesus is going to return and take you to heaven and.

And yet when you when you really press them on very specifics about that particular part immediately.

Now you just mentioned an nameless dispensationalist prominent dispensationalist who

Said that Israel has to be kicked out of the land and then brought back in believing.

Is that a rare view amongst dispensationalist because when I hear most the

vast majority without question of dispensationalist speak about the current day

Land in the Middle East known as Israel.

They are speaking of it as if it is the true Israel so and and that

always Perplexed me since it is an atheistic state, even though there are

Orthodox Jews that live there.

The the rulers of that nation are certainly not Orthodox believers, but but

are they viewing Israel there now as the authentic article?

Well, I think I think they do and this is why there's a great deal of Schizophrenia, I'll give you a couple of

examples.

This is from John MacArthur I

happen to be landed on

and it says this is what John MacArthur wrote and this is typical of a lot of guy.

I'm not picking on John MacArthur.

I have a whole bunch of these quotations from these guys.

He says it could have says the rapture could happen at any moment.

It is a signless imminent event.

No first signs before the second coming, but there are no

signs before the rapture.

We live in the life that at any moment in any fraction of a moment Trump's

sound the angel calls and we go.

This is the next event in God's plan.

It's only for those who know and love Christ.

We're here to serve you and help you.

Well If if that's true then in 1947 and

again is what Tim LaHaye called a super sign then in 1947 the

rapture couldn't have taken place and therefore it wasn't an imminent any moment event and It's

amazing to kind of read these what these guys what these guys say now they wouldn't.

Almost no one.

No one says well Israel has to be kicked out of the land again.

You can make the case while Israel's in the land and etc.

But that's.

And say well, it's part into the period of the great of the Great

Tribulation, which is after the rapture.

But you can't say it's a sign now because if it's a if it's a if it's a sign.

There and it happens within what they say is the church age and the rapture is a silent event.

Israel being back in the land right now cannot be a I was

just going to say so you you are saying that that.

That dispensationalist you debated has a rare view about Israel being kicked out and brought back in

believing.

Yeah, because yeah, it's a very unpopular unpopular thing to say that

because You're talking about putting Israel in jeopardy because if let's let's say

that's the position and something let's say some country goes in there and and

Bombs Israel and throws them out of the land.

Well, according to Bible prophecy that would be irrelevant to Bible prophecy.

Because of course they get bombed out

of the land.

But sometime in the future Israel is going to be in the land and and the rapture is going to take place.

But that's not necessarily a sign of anything.

That's what that is their position.

By the way.

I also want to quickly add that I actually view John MacArthur as one of my

greatest living heroes of the faith, but I strongly and adamantly disagree with him on

his eschatology and I I'm actually blessed to see that he surrounds himself

frequently with people that disagree with him on his Dispensationalism which is much more than

eschatology.

But.

It's just good to see that.

In fact, he had always maintained a very close friendship.

That just that quotation just just On my screen because I'm editing this book.

Tim La Tim La Haye.

He has written 12 reasons why this could be the terminal generation.

And you say well, wait a minute.

How's that.

There can't be any reasons why.

And and Tim La Haye even goes goes further than that because he takes the seven the seven churches

in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 the church

age and.

That the rapture will take place during the liosacean age.

Which we supposedly were now living in and said well, wait a minute.

If the rapture was a silence of the sign list event and it was imminent because it could have happened any

moment.

That means the rapture could have taken place during any one of those so -called six church ages.

Look, this is this is the nature of people who claim

their beginning of this Interpreting the Bible.

Literally when they're pressed on these types

of when you press them on what they act

working on here I'm just quoting what what they say about these things and it's a pretty

instantiation of land again

radio station a

number of years ago.

He actually said that I actually have the actually have the the the program the audio of that program.

See if I can find it and put it up on on American vision site.

We have to take a brief break right now.

If you have a question for Gary remember, he's only going to be on For another half hour, so please

submit your your email immediately because we're already rapidly running out of time with his Portion of

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So send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the first hour with about 25 minutes remaining is Gary

DeMar president of American vision and we are discussing taking off

your Traditions eyeglasses to see things biblically.

If you have a question send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And we do have a question from Robert in White Plains, New York and

Robert.

Asks.

Do you believe that on the very last day of her earthly history?

That the dead will be raised and caught up in the air with Christ.

I'm not talking about the secret rapture view of that happening a thousand years

before.

The second coming.

I'm speaking of the very second coming itself in reference to the second physical coming of Christ.

I know that the the verse Second coming is nowhere found in the Bible, but I'm speaking

of his second physical coming.

Which is obvious that there are only two To in my opinion of reading the Bible, but

as far as being caught up in the air, do you believe that will happen?

Whether that's well, I don't think it's talking about the rapture at all.

But traditionally it's been the passage that deals with the second coming of Christ.

It will be will be caught up and that will be the end of history.

That's a passage.

I'm still looking at I have not been satisfied With anybody's particular interpretation.

I'm looking at a lot of their other passages as well.

Haven't gotten to them yet.

I'm going through the Bible basically verse -by -verse.

Looking at passages because it's interesting that when you go through Some of the creed well, not so

much creedal statements because there isn't a lot of and We go

to the confessional statements regarding eschatology that we that you and

I are discussing right now.

I remember

that way

and GI

Williamson did the editing of that.

He said that he did not agree With with loss using Matthew

chapter 24 30 As a second coming second coming passage.

I call it a consummating coming passage he said he he said that particular passage refers

refers to Events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

I think there are a lot of passages that are oftentimes used for what we call the second coming

that are in reality

anybody who is a Preterist, I mean Marcellus kick who wrote

Matthew chapter 20

leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

He has to back and look at a lot of

commentaries on Matthew 24.

You will find that that

that is my mind a better

understanding of time indicators.

Audience relevance the way it's used.

I'll give you another example if you go to Revelation chapter three

time in judgment against three of those churches.

Well, what coming is that?

What how do you categorize that and almost everybody?

I read I think there's only one one Commentator I found coming

I don't know how you do that first to a judgment coming in that language is very typical of

Language in the Old Testament if you chapter 19 verse 1 that says that Jehovah kind of

comes on a cloud to Egypt and the idols tremble at his presence.

So I

think

the church has not done has not

set analogy covering all of the basic eschatology.

Things, you know, they got to stop at the end of history.

Jesus returns at the end of history, etc, etc.

But they don't really deal with much in between.

There's not hardly any consensus at all.

There's so much confusion over at the pre -trip

mid -trip those

on so forth and so on.

I think it's a variable mix -up teaching regarding

Eschatology and the

debate I had with him on a Dallas, Texas radio program KCBI on

May 15 1991 and here's what he

said present state of Israel

will be a savior.

One believes an imminent event something called the

I think it's a very dangerous language.

But again, they're one today the ones that most of the books that are

written about today.

That are all about signs and telling us, you know money money system.

But if you microchip in you and that's part of the mark of the beast and so forth and so on again If there's if there's an event called

the rapture.

That's supposed to be a silence event.

None of those things have anything to do with Bible prophecy.

Now you mentioned Marcellus kick.

Who wrote an eschatology of victory back in the 70s?

He was he actually wrote.

Yes.

He wrote that book in 1948.

Oh, okay.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, and it was it was just updated a little bit back.

I've got the original version of it as well.

It came out as a single volume and I think and the I'm not even know if there's a there was a date on it.

Was a small hardback read hardback with a dust jacket and that was the first book that kind of

Turned me turned me on to this.

I was in seminary at the time and this is I was in seminary in 1970s when Hal Lindsey's a late great planet

Earth was was was out and Everybody was reading late great planet Earth.

I mean the book sold 20, I think 26 million copies in the 19 1970s it

was it was deemed them the most popular best -selling book of the

of the 1970s, of course, we now know it was the best -selling Probably

fiction book of that time as well.

But yet kicks kicks book Took all of Matthew chapter 24 up through verse 35 as

referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 80 70.

And then he says there's a transition versus

verse in my Kind of pilgrimage in this particular area, but he was

clearly a post -millennialist.

Which is not to be confused with a hyper preterist because I can't think of anything that

lacks victory as much as hyper preterism does I mean you have sin being

perpetuated through all of Into the future possibly for

eternity into the future unless man destroys the planet Earth.

But.

Almost every single time that you've been on there have been people who are Questioning me that you become a hyper

preterist.

You want to settle that now and forever?

Yeah, yeah, again, that's you brought up the point.

I'm Hyper preterist a full preterist.

I don't like the I don't like the term hyper preterist.

A full preterist is probably a better better designation.

Everything everything ends at 80 70.

Well, I don't believe everything ends in 80 70.

That's where I guess my post -millennialism kicks in but I don't even like that term because that's dependent on Revelation

chapter 20.

But I believe there's a there's a lot

left.

I don't think we I don't think the Bible gives us.

There's some debate on 2nd Peter chapter 3

John Brown

anything to do with the

in some time in the future.

They actually found in the destruction of Jerusalem in 80 70.

So there's even something, you know debate on what second Peck the second Peter chapter 3 is all about but I would say that's

that's a Minority position.

David Chilton wrote a very very good article on 2nd Peter chapter

3 using John Owen John Lightfoot and others John Brown a John Brown banner of truth published

John Brown's discourses and sayings and that's the John Brown that took that position on 2nd Peter 3 and then there's

a book called Israel the new covenant covenant by There are

the new heavens in the new earth of Isaiah

chapter 65 and 66 so.

Again, they're a good designation.

There's something many different varieties of full preterism today.

That it's hard to say what petition is the I

guess the death took place at 80 70 and at the end of it I think that's one of the biggest.

And so if you don't like post -millennialism as a label, would you like really really really really really

optimistic on millennialist?

I don't even like this, you know.

To explain things

because even a post -millennialist believes that we could be plunged into another dark age.

Where there are centuries of false teaching dominating the earth.

It's not like a straight hour of boning upward.

Look true.

I mean you got the you got the Reformation that took place.

Things were look during that time.

I mean so much so.

That the.

Reformers Designated the papacy as the Antichrist and the Westminster Confession of

Faith the 17th century doctrine Document did the same thing.

I mean that things were Things were truly bad.

You had World War World War one in World War two you have the Holocaust and all those types of things and

the Interesting thing during that period of time you had prophecy writers.

Oswald J. Smith wrote a book in the 1920s Taking all the Bible passages that people use today

about The end and he maintained it was Mussolini and

regretted this because when Mussolini was finally Executed along with his girl

from the window and Oswald J.

Smith My understanding that when he went out to speak various places He told people they had a copy of

that book to please bring it in and he would buy it back.

Oh.

Lindsay who made something of a prediction that the rapture was going to take place before 1988.

Do that with copies of less of the late great planet Earth.

So at least Oswald J. Smith had a bit of integrity.

But he still was dealing with last -day stuff even up until the time of his death.

So these I think and this is what I think this is what happens when we start

labeling things.

It becomes a shortcut for dismissal.

It's like Calvin.

I think that's kind of a horrible designation for

I mean, come on.

Attach it to a person.

It's not a good.

It was the same thing with the with theonomy and Christian Reconstruction.

Would you end up with these terms and then people use those that though?

He's a theonomist or he's a Reconstructionist or he's a post -millennial.

It's or he's a Calvinist or he's an Armenian.

And all that that's in the debate because what you end up having to do is then

sit back and say no.

No, let me explain this to you and so well, you have to explain it to me.

But I know it's going to take that much time and it's probably not true.

I mean, I've heard I've heard that but you have to sit down and explain this to me.

Let's put you know whether it's not true or I said, well, why don't you read it?

I'm not going to read that.

So I I try to I try to avoid.

Those types of terms.

Because I think it you know debate and it also it

will have they get the impression of what a particular word means.

Based upon what someone else says about it and you never get very far with it.

I guess I use those terms frequently because I love getting into arguments.

What jobs would we have if we did.

We couldn't argue about things.

Well, it's the Christians are always in a dilemma because.

There are so many different kinds of Christians or professing Christians.

That say I just go by the Bible and yet they're complete heretics.

You know, so we are in a dilemma and whether to use labels or not, but I want you to

Give us your final summation of what you would have our listeners most leave with

today etched in their hearts and minds.

Because we're running into the midway break right now.

Well, I didn't want to just deal with eschatology.

I you know, I deal with in fact I'm working on a book right now finishing putting the final touches on it about the case for America's

Christian heritage, which will Should be out the next couple in a couple months.

It's going to be a hard pack of full -color book and that's another area of

Something that we we don't have a handle on a lot of Christians will say well There's a separation between church and state and I said, where

does it say that in the Constitution?

What is the Constitution actually say what was the First Amendment actually say and

Said you will not see to find the phrase separation church or state in the Constitution.

Yeah, just says it that the government shall not establish a religion.

That's wrong.

Well, it's not even that it says Congress shall make no law Respecting an establishment or

prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

He said why is it just a Congress?

Well, because Congress is supposed to be the only law -making body we have in the United States Supreme Court doesn't make law.

Neither does the president so all see and then you'll find something about the three -fifths, you know Black

people were considered three -fifths of a person.

Well, that's not if you read the Constitution.

That's not what the Constitution is saying and There's a you know, so there

there's more there's there's more Hermeneutical principles than just the Bible that

get Christians and people generally.

I'm not this isn't just the Christians problem that people just don't know they're not aware

of the issues.

They don't study the issues.

They don't pay attention to what the topics are.

They don't pay attention to the wording of things they listen to people on the radio like you and me and what

you and I what you and I Want to do is we want to go look check these things out here I'm here's some

here's a place you need to go read the actual First Amendment to the Constitution.

And see and see what it and see what it says and read the whole thing.

Not just the thing that I just quoted and I remember debating a fellow on America's Christian heritage and I always

prepared a notebook beforehand.

So I would be prepared and Eddie to Eddie to Bosch Dr. Greg Bonson debated him too, but

I debated him on America's Christian heritage.

And Eddie to Bosch Quoted quoted something and I said, wait a minute I've got that and I've got the full

quotation in my notebook that I put together and I you know page through and said Here it is.

I said, well, yeah Edward to Bosch quoted this but let me give you the rest of the quotation and I quoted it it

was it was one of those just a Great moment in my life when I was actually

prepared for something that I thought might might come up.

And that's the thing we we read the Bible is at Francis Schaefer said we read the Bible in bits and pieces.

And we oftentimes read so much so many other things in bits and pieces and we're carried away

By what other people say and what other people's views are without checking these things out for ourselves.

And this is where the Apostle John talked about, you know for

again, but go back to script.

Well, you've proven once again that you have to be on for two hours on

Because we're out of time.

Well, I look forward to having you back on to discuss the book the that's not yet in print that you just

mentioned and I look I look forward having you back on frequently and Just to remind our listeners.

Your website is American vision org.

American vision org.

Thank you so much Gary for being our guest today and don't take too long for before you

return.

God bless you brother.

And don't go away folks because we do have a second guest.

We have a second guest.

That.

Is coming on Matt Kennett, sir of St. John's Reformed Church

in Freidensburg Pennsylvania.

He is going to be discussing.

Our theology is inescapable and will influence our lives and.

This is the longer -than -normal break in the show.

So please be patient.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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Before we Introduce my second guest today Matt Kennetzer senior pastor

of St. John's Reformed Church of Freidensburg, Pennsylvania and our discussion on our theology is

inescapable and It will influence our lives.

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Also, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful Church a Christ honoring

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Matt Kenitzer pastor of st John's

Reformed Church of Freidensburg, Pennsylvania on our theme.

Our theology is inescapable and will influence our lives.

Yeah, it's great to be having you back and I'm looking forward to our conversation and

Why don't you tell our listeners for those that are unfamiliar with you and missed your previous interview?

Tell our listeners about st. John's Reformed Church of Freidensburg, Pennsylvania.

Yeah,

so st.

John's

Reformed

and

for

those.

Interested in finding out more about st. John's Reformed Church of Freidensburg, Pennsylvania go to

sjrcpa .org.

Sjrc standing for a st. John's Reformed Church PA standing for pennsylvania

.org Sjrcpa .org.

Well, we have quite a I think Interesting subject at hand here.

Our theology is inescapable and will influence our lives and Let me

also introduce into the discussion something that you will either agree or

disagree with yourself.

But I think it's inescapable to have a theology in other words

even people that claim they don't do.

An atheist or professing atheist.

Who.

May be an advocate for introducing Transgenderism and

homosexuality into Elementary school and even kindergarten classes.

They may say oh we are not importing theology into the Classroom.

It's only the annoying Evangelical Christians who want to do that.

Well, they are importing theology because they are saying that the Bible is filled with lies.

Even if they don't use that terminology by declaring that

Transgenderism and homosexuality are not only acceptable but worthy of celebrating.

They are saying without using the words that God is a liar that the Bible is filled with lies.

And we should not pay any attention to it.

So they are taking a theological position and of course those aren't the only issues but there is a host of other issues

where people may think they are getting around from Imposing

their religion on others by saying that they don't have a religion or they're not using religious

issues.

In whatever activism they're involved in they are clearly mistaken.

Am I right on that?

Yeah, I

would

can't

tell me

that

that's

not

up

so we

get

that

here.

It's being

shoved

in running all the way through it

full of myths and lies.

They're coming from a theological only God

can fill

and so,

you know, we

are and.

Even worse than Professing atheists agnostics

Humanists and secularists claiming that they don't have a religion or theology.

I should say.

Are.

Professing believers who will view theology and doctrine as

something that really gets in the way of Truly

enjoying the Christian experience and.

Even.

Truly worshiping God with joy and

passion.

And You know, there's a common Regurgitated statement, you know doctrine

divides.

Let's just forget about doctrine and lift up Jesus.

In fact while saying that I am reminded of a dear friend of mine

Robert Posh, I don't know if Bob Posh is listening, but he's an old friend going back to the early

90s he is or at least was at the time an

Attorney for Doubleday Books and a devout Roman Catholic with whom I had

much serious disagreement.

Believing that he has a false gospel, etc.

But we maintained a close friendship and still do in spite of the distances that have been placed

between us Geographically now that he's moved to Colorado.

But Bob used to have parties at his home and the sole purpose of his

parties were to invite Catholics and Protestants over to his home so that they could

eat drink and argue.

And that is what actually gave birth to the decade long series of

Catholic versus Protestant debates that I launched in 1996 called the great debates

featuring. Dr. James R. White and Roman Catholic apologists who were his opponents and

I could remember vividly sitting there overhearing a conversation that Bob was having at one of his

barbecues.

Where a so -called evangelical was saying to Bob I'm really

getting tired of the religious nature of this

Barbecue and that doctrine and theology and theology are dampening

the spirit of togetherness that we could have.

Can't we just put aside doctrine and theology and just lift up Jesus.

And Bob's response that I overheard was you see that guy sitting there.

His name is Chris Arnson.

I disagree with almost everything he believes but at least he believes in something you don't believe in anything.

But if you could Let our listeners know what is Foremost on your mind in

regard to this subject that you actually yourself chose to discuss today.

Our theology is inescapable and will influence our lives.

Yeah, well

two lives

that in our

Christian

life.

I mean Jesus

says, you

know

praises

in his high

priestly

prayer Sanctify them by thy truth.

Your word is truth.

And

so

if we

take the

root

of our things

how

you

walk not the

time.

Christian

life.

And

ultimately

to

the

glory

of God and.

There is obviously an element of truth in that statement doctrine divides because it divides

Those that are faithful to the scriptures from heretics or those that are at the very least

seriously in error.

And another issue that could be repeated is that

Everybody is importing doctrine and theology into the conversation because even

The statement doctrine divides is a doctrinal concept, right?

Just like those who claim They do not have a creed or confession and they only believe in the Bible.

That Statement is in and of itself a confessional or creedal statement.

So these folks cannot cannot really avoid.

The.

Roadblocks or the the Bumps in the road that they are trying to

avoid by some by somehow having a more pure loving and enjoyable

faith experience by just focusing on Jesus because the issue is then All right, you

remove doctrine and theology.

What Jesus are you trying to exalt?

There are many different kinds of Jesus That are being presented to the world

in varying churches and cults and world religions

and in greeting cards and in all kinds of places and in

Christmas and Easter specials on National Geographic television or the History Channel.

It's interesting how you very often if not most often during those seasons of the year when you see

Christmas and Easter being discussed on one of those secular television networks.

You have people who are Avowed atheists and agnostics talking about this

like Bart Ehrman.

And others they'll have them as the speakers.

Because Bart Ehrman this may be news to our listeners, but although he is an agnostic He does

believe in a historic Jesus.

He does believe that Jesus Actually lived and walked the earth unlike some who claim to be

atheists and agnostic but people have to really examine the things

that they say and the things that they Teach and declare.

I mean, it's really ridiculous at some point, isn't it?

Yeah,

and

it's

our

life.

So you

hear

the

church

needs

to

come

back

to Understanding that theology is

running through ever

in

in in kind of the

mentality that we square.

I think.

Now what

were the compelling

factors in your life and in your ministry that.

Really engraved on your heart and mind your

interest in the necessity of discussing this issue.

Logical foundation

and

I don't

know if we

really

want to go

this

deep in

our

day.

You

know

to work in the minds

and hearts

and lives of

those

who are

truly

in Christ so that we can

dodge is so Critically important.

Yeah, I

have

heard my friend.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

Who as you know is going to be speaking God willing at my next iron trip inside radio pastors luncheon in

Loisville, Pennsylvania on September 22nd, but I have heard him.

In response to this whole area of people who say that Theology and

doctrine are really intrusions into fully enjoying the Christian experience

He will say imagine saying that you love your wife with

all of your heart and when asked about details about

your wife.

About what color her eyes are.

What are her favorite foods?

What are her favorite?

Recreational.

Things to do are her favorite music.

What makes her laugh.

What makes her cry.

What are her passions if you just keep saying I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know.

How infinitely more important is to know details about God and to say

that you're just lifting up Jesus and removing details about him

his nature his work is Really ridiculous because if you love him You aren't you going to want to learn

as much about him as you possibly can.

Endeavoring

sanctifies

us and

so we

grow in

alignment

with his

word according to his word.

Obviously, that's not perfect,

you know,

there's

there's we

do have

a

listener.

Who chooses to remain anonymous?

He or she says I Am remaining anonymous because I do not want to

unnecessarily insult pastors and Speakers who have

been present at the congregation where I am a member.

Who have been I think guilty of what I'm about to say.

Although I agree with everything that you two are talking about.

Isn't it an equally?

Serious danger that some men who ascend behind a pulpit

Use very deep theological terminology.

That is not a part of your average person's everyday speech

without Clearly explaining what they are talking about.

It seems at times that men who do this are just trying to Impress their hearers

by showing off their large vocabulary.

I'm not talking about dumbing down a message but I am saying that those who Speak a lot

about theology and doctrine should always be clearly Defining what they are saying so that

your average audience member can clearly understand what they are trying to convey.

Yeah,

I

would

understand

it.

A big

issue.

And unfortunately,

they've

come from

shepherds hearts.

And so we need to be that same way in explaining because we shepherd souls.

So and we have to go to our final break and if you have a question for pastor Matt Kennett, sir

Please send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

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Wow, that's some compliment.

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Welcome back Pastor Matt.

We have a listener.

In.

Dauphin County, Pennsylvania.

Susan Margaret who says there is a saying that is very often

misused but I still think that it has merit repeating and That is there are

those who are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good now.

Obviously if somebody is truly heavenly minded Theology and doctrine are going to be an essential

focus of their life but at the same time there are those who may be able

to Memorize vast portions of Scripture and speak for hours about the

deep details of theology and doctrine but are doing nothing for the sake of

others in the body of Christ nor are they evangelizing the lost.

Don't we always have to keep this in balance as even is Included as a

warning in the epistle of James.

Deliberate to walk and

have to be defined

within the same area as each other.

And so.

You

know,

there's

and I think

that we

you mentioned the

importance

of love,

obviously.

We have to remember that when we are speaking with those that we disagree.

And We can be even myself included like raising the hand of guilt

here on that on occasion I can be Mocking and unloving of those that

disagree and we have to be very careful Not to do that.

I'm not saying that we are to never mock things that are outlandishly

absurd and heretical and blasphemous but We at times are too cruel to our brethren in

Christ to disagree and we have to be very cautious about that.

Yes

of

the

church

the

the

pastors of the

church inform our people and shepherd them in these ways.

Now we're almost out of time.

I want to make sure that you announce to our listeners some upcoming important special events you're having.

Yes,

and

that

website

is.

Sjr CPA org SJ RC for

st. John's Reformed Church PA the abbreviation for pennsylvania .org.

SJ.

RCPA org and I also urge you to listen to the

interviews that I conducted with Matt true Ella and Also our guest today

Matt Kennenser on the book That was just mentioned by

Pastor Matt the doctrine of the lesser magistrates.

So if you go to iron sharpens iron radio .com and click on past shows

Podcast you type in the search engine true Ella.

That's trewh Ella, that's obviously the only person I've ever

interviewed with that name.

That interview will come up and I hope that you are blessed by it.

We you have about 90 seconds to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Theology

matters

theology

matter.

Yeah.

Imagine somebody saying that oh Policy

Does not matter at all when it comes to a political office holder in

Authority in our government doesn't matter what they their policies are what their agenda is.

Oh, it doesn't matter.

What you eat it drink at all.

You know you you can be a glutton and you could drink to excess.

Doesn't matter, you know, if you say those things people will think you're insane.

But when when people say that about theology, oh theology doesn't really matter.

Doctrine doesn't really matter.

They are obviously entering into an area of idiocy.

Well, I want to thank you for returning to the show.

I'm looking forward to having you come back on the program and perhaps next time we can have you on for the full two hours.

I know that there are a lot of things that you have to say that will bless our audience.

And Once again just to repeat the website that we just mentioned.

For the church where pastor Matt Kennet sir is the pastor.

Sjr cpa .org.

Sjr cpa .org.

I want to thank you so much pastor Matt for being an excellent guest.

I want to thank everybody who listened today.

I want to thank Gary DeMar for being our first guest today.

And I want to thank all of you who took the time to write in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far

greater Savior Than you are a sinner.

Thank you, brother.