The Laborers' Podcast- Women Deacons?

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00:19

Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the laborers podcast. We are so thankful that you decided to join us and watch.

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We would appreciate it if you would share. We are joining together to show our unity, share the message of Christ, share the truth of God's word with you, with our community, and we want to lock arms with you as we do that.

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We love doing ministry together, and so if you have any questions, give us a shout.

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Let us know that you're watching. We would really appreciate it. Appreciate the share, the like, and the follow, and all that good jazz.

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We appreciate it. So I apologize for my voice. I'm a little sick tonight. I hope these brothers can carry me tonight the best that they can.

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We changed our topic last minute, which I'm glad it was suggested. We were going to talk about or continue in our series on a healthy church, and we're going to talk about the gospel and conversion in a healthy church.

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But it was mentioned since we were talking about leadership in the church and we were talking about the two offices in the church.

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We kind of focused on one since that was also a hot topic here recently with the

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Southern Baptist Convention. We kind of neglected the other office that we saw in Scripture.

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So it was recommended that we look at that office, and one of the big conversations when it does come up is are women allowed biblically to hold the office of deacon?

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And so we want to discuss that tonight. So with that being said, we've got Claude, the Happy Calvinist, Tyler from Bread of the

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Word podcast. We got Big John from what's the name of your podcast?

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Real Talk with Big John. Real Talk with Big John. That's right. And we got Dan, who joins me on Truth and Love.

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You can find all those podcasts on the website through our ministries.

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I would encourage you to listen to all of them. How are you guys doing tonight? I'm sorry if I seem distracted.

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I'm trying to share this out live, but I'm not having a lot of success.

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It seems like I struggle as well trying to do all these all these things at one time and multitask. So let's let's jump right in.

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Let's jump right in with the conversation and see where it takes us. We'll start next week back on the conversation of what is the gospel or what the gospel looks like?

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And what does conversion look like in a biblically healthy church? But tonight, are women allowed biblically to hold the office of deacon?

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So, Dan, let's start with you at the bottom corner there and go with the first question.

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What are the offices? And this is kind of a recap of last one. What are the offices that the

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Bible gives us for local church? Also, I believe there are two offices, the office of elder, the office of deacon.

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How in depth do you want to go on the recap? You can give a little brief description, a little bit deeper.

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All right. So elder, basically, you'd think of when you think of a pastor or. Someone who is spiritually qualified as a leader in the church called out, separated hands laid on them to be a spiritual guide leader and cornerstone pillar in the church.

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They have to be able to teach and and lead the people well. Then you have the office of a deacon, which is a servant role, which is to to take care of basically the orphans and widows and to help dole out money's alms.

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And to generally serve, serve the church in its work of.

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I put. Caring for the body and the world around us in a more physical, tangible, earthly, physical material sense.

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Gotcha. All right. Jonathan, are you doing my brothers?

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Yeah, good, good, good. We just answered the first question. What is what are the offices in a church?

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Here's the next question. John, big John. I'm going to try to figure out a way to distinguish you two guys.

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So here's my comment. First, based on last podcast, I think we have a consistent consensus with each other.

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Now, I'm not so I'm not so sure from from your background and it's it's OK. We had the consensus that the biblical office of pastor is for qualified men only and not sure about your your background, your denominational background.

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And that's OK. But the question is, go ahead, go ahead.

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I would say the the Church of God allows for women to be pastors and.

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And elders in a church now, they don't allow them to be bishops in the church.

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I think that that was it's been voted on many times. They they push.

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Seems like it's forever being pushed every general assembly to go further in that direction.

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I don't know how I don't know how to shake out, you know. But they but they do make a distinction, though, at some level.

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Yeah. Up until recently, a woman could not pastor. She could she could preach.

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But there had to be a man. She had to be serving under a male pastor. Typically, it was their husband.

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In fact, I can only think of one example except for. Oh, my goodness.

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Brother Robert, do you remember that prayer meeting we used to have on Saturday morning with Brandon? Yeah. You remember a sister named

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Gloria? I do not. It came on there. And there's only one one lady that ever give a devotion.

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In any case, she is actually the pastor of Southside Church of God in China Grove. And she is the only female pastor that I know of.

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Personally, no. And to my knowledge, that's a pretty recent development that they've allowed for women to actually hold the pastorate of a church.

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I can't tell you when that started, though. I'm not a church of God historian. Gotcha. Gotcha. I disagree with it.

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I think it's pretty clear. Timothy. My understanding.

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Right here. These are trustworthy. If anyone desires an overseer, I'd be a bishop.

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And I get on verse eight. Deacons, likewise, be worthy of respect. Not hypocritical.

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Not drinking a lot of wine. Not greedy or money. Holding faith and with a clear conscience.

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And they must also be tested. If they prove blameless, they can serve as deacons.

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And then says wives, too, must be respect. It's assumed or at least it's put in.

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This is assumed that they must be the husband of one wife. It kind of leaves women out of that.

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In my eyes, anyway. Was that the answer to the question you was asking?

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I apologize if I skipped ahead. Hello. Robert froze.

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He can really long stare. What that is. Look at that. Oh, man. He picked him off.

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I'm telling you. Yeah. We're right now. This is scary. Look at that.

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I mean, he hasn't even blinked. That's a really upsetting job.

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I'm sorry. He's froze right now. We're not afraid of you. What's that?

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Look how serious. All right. Let's move. Let's move. Let's keep on moving around the table. Then let's go to Pastor John here.

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Pastor John the Ninja. By the way, that that picture of you doing that kick is still awesome.

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It's forever burned in my brain. Thank you. So we're going to take on the

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Greek definition of deacon. Is that where we're at then? Are we?

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Are we done? Yeah. If you want to go ahead and tackle that and then we'll get Rob to get us on track and comes back. Yeah.

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So because we just deal with, you know, the consensus about me and being pastors and, and then, and, and then basically the

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Greek word for deacon. And so, I mean, is there any other comments on pastoring though? I mean, any other comments that need to be made on that from a pastor standpoint?

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I don't think so. I think we covered that. Only question I'd like to ask John is why, why do you think sort of in the

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Pentecostal realm that, that that is that, that is in movement of that direction?

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I don't know. I'm a, I'm first generation church. God man.

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I don't I don't know how it was before. I've been in the church of God since 2000, 2010.

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And the, they have allowed women to pastor or not pastor, but they have allowed women to preach since 1906.

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That was one of the first rules I made. Now I'll say that there have been times throughout history that God's used women in a mighty way inside the church.

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Whenever, sadly, there was no man to do to do anything. I don't know if it's in every

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Pentecostal church, Pastor John, or if it's just in the church of God, I've never been associated with any other Pentecostal body.

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A lot of the charismatic movement, which I don't associate all Pentecostal denominations with the charismatic movement.

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I don't want to agree. I agree. You know what I'm saying? But, but Pentecostal and then

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Pentecostal leaning and then all the way through to, to more hyper charismatic movement stuff.

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You know, you find, you find that is where a lot of the momentum is. Even, even a lot of the emotionalism that, that is attached to the charismatic maniacs is what

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I call. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Ghost and God can do whatever he wants. You know, but all I'm trying to say is, but a lot of the hyper charismatic stuff and things it's attached to emotionalism and it's often led by women.

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And that, and I, and I think that's the reason this is a, is a big issue. And especially in a, in a feminist hyper culture, because it, it bothers me.

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The reason I'm asking that question, I still consider, especially in our area and our region, the

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Pentecostal holiness churches and church of God churches. And even though there's, there's things that doctrinally we disagree on,

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I would still consider them very conservative when it comes to fundamental theology. You know,

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I'd still consider them very, very conservative. And so, so I'm, I'm, I'm interested because then what we're seeing is there's a push in, in the

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Pentecostal world. And then there's also a push in the liberal world and they're both going for the same thing of putting women in more authority in, in the pulpit and in church.

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And, and so that's, that's a strange place to, to, to, to see that that that's becoming a topic as, as much as it is.

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And this is a hot topic for Baptist life right now, just, just across the year, independent

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Baptist or, or whatever we are, you know what I mean? Southern Baptist or so on and so forth.

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It's a, it's a, it's obviously a very hot topic right now in that, but yet not compromised on yet.

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Okay. When it comes to pastor and role of pastor and that kind of stuff. But anyway, so that's, that's just where I was just curious.

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I would interject here too, that it's not just in the charismatic.

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Area of Christianity, but it's in Methodism. It's in Anglican, it's in Presbyterian.

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It's in, it's in Baptist. I mean, because that's really where all this is. Our conversation really, you know, coming from Rob's perspective here, that's where it's, where it's coming from, from a focus in all those.

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So it's not just one. One denomination that, that facing these issues and, and that I'll say this compromising, compromising on the truth of the scripture.

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Amen. I mean, by that Claude was, that's what I'm saying. It's confusing to me that a lot of our

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Pentecostal brethren that are very conservative, that are very different than the, the liberal side of the

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Methodist movement or the liberal side of the Presbyterian or the liberal side of the Lou for movements or those kinds of stuff, they're still holding a very conservative

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Orthodox Christian values, but yet on this one subject are compromising.

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and so that's, what's confusing to me because there'll be extremely staunch on other, other things that are as equally clear in scripture, but on this one subject, it seems like it becomes relativism versus biblical truth because it's relative to the moment or it becomes relative.

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The Holy Spirit's movement. So now I guess I'm the one to do this, you know, and they, and again,

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I can say that because I get the opportunity to preach in a lot of Pentecostal churches and church of God churches. And I get in,

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I'm thankful to get invited to those opportunities to do that. And I, I'll preach anywhere.

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People, people know that I'll go preach the gospel. So that's all

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I'm trying to say is I'm, I have really good friends in, in, in Pentecostal circles and I'm asking them, the same question, why is there a slide for this one specific issue when there is zero movement on any of the other moral issues of the day?

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And so I'm just curious as to why, you know, that's all y 'all. So thank you guys for carrying on.

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I, my computer froze, but on, on that line of thinking, that conversation, it kind of leads to that question that I was leading up to because we just, we just took a pause there and we got back on the topic of, of women, pastors, elders.

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And so why do we have, why do we not have as many discussions concerning it?

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And Jonathan, I'll, I'll let you continue. Why do we not have as many discussions concerning women deacons as we do women pastors?

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That's a good question. And, and I, I did some, some soul searching on this one in particular because if I'm, if I'm real honest about the role of deacon,

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I've waffled through the years on that because, because I believe non -negotiably the past, the role of pastor and the role of elders are clearly to be men without, without doubt.

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And I can find that precedent throughout scripture. The, the only precedent we find in when it comes to deacons is when, you know,

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Timothy is there and we find an act, Timothy, the qualifications and an ax look out among you men of good report, but then, but then you have to, you can't ignore

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Paul's acknowledgement of the value of serving women that in the

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English translation, like, like Phoebe was, was obviously the same word for deaconess was used for her as, as in first Timothy three.

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So, you know, so you, so I've struggled with that and, and where I've landed personally.

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So let me say that where I've landed personally is I believe that the role in the office of deacon is still reserved for a man.

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I believe that because the, the very just clear approach that John used was when we look at qualifications and how we qualify, it's a man of woman, a woman, man, it's, it's one that rules his house.

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So, well, it's pretty much the same qualifications as an elder, except with the exception of apt to teach a deacon is not required to be able to preach, but it still has to be doctrinally sound.

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And so, but it's pretty much the same set of qualifications. And as I mentioned, you're an ax when they, when they first chose men, the first church deacons, it says, look out among you men of good report.

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And so, but I also know that that's rooted in Jewish culture. And so when you go over to Greek culture, where Paul went, there was obviously women that he, that, that, that God used in the early formation of the church.

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And so, so we should not just dismiss that as light or, or unnecessary in the current body.

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And so that's where in my heart, there's been, there's been through the years shifting this up and down, because I do believe pastor and elder is the authority.

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And then if you had them as authority and deacons are not a deciding a decision -making body, but they're, they're table waiters.

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And when you get into the, the definition table waiters and servants and those kinds of stuff, well, then could there be room for a woman to be a deacon to the other women, you know, could be those kinds of stuff.

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And maybe perhaps, I don't know, but I think it just brings a lot of confusion and a lot of frustration in the body.

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And so, and the reason this was hard, I wanted to give a background story real quick. When pastor

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Josh and I, we merged our churches together, he was gospel life and, and we were vertical church.

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And when we merged our churches together, we were both pastor led, elder led churches, but he had from, from the

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DNA of the church that planted them, there were women deacons in their church, but it was not a decision -making body.

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It was very specifically. So it was like a deacon of hospitality. And so they, they would say now a woman could hold that position as a servant of hospitality and assign them to that, to that role.

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There's not a teaching position there. There's not an authoritative position. They're basically a position of hospitality.

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But at the same time, when we did come together, that was an honest conversation we had. And really what it all boiled back down to was just coming back to scripture.

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Because when you come back to those qualifications and the normal precedent set in the new Testament church, the qualifications are obviously speaking of men.

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And so we, we, so we, so I just, I just want to give some background to that just to say it, when it comes to the role of deacon versus elder in Baptist life, it becomes even more difficult because in Southern Baptist life, a majority of those churches are pastors and deacons and that's it.

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There's not a plurality of elders. There's really only one elder, which is the pastor and then deacons who really serve as the board of deacons or the elders or the decision -making body in the church.

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In that, I can confidently say non -negotiably that it should be all men.

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If that is, if that is how the structure of the church is done. And then where I personally extend a little more grace, if there is, if there is pastors and a plurality of elders, and then under that there are servants that aren't shepherding, leading, authoritative, teaching, preaching, but they're serving in different capacities.

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I don't get all twisted up over, over the term servant or deacon in that capacity, but, but in the normal Baptist church that I was raised in, there was the deacons that basically had the authority of the church.

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And in many times made the pastors to be hirelings, made the elders to be hirelings to the deacons. Totally screwed up.

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So, so I think, I think you have to measure it in some context of, of where it's at.

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But so the long and short of it is I do think it's an important conversation, the role of deacon and the role of deacon in that local church.

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The final thing I'll say is, it's not our conviction as a local church, but I do think the

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Bible is more descriptive in the roles of deacons than it is prescriptive.

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There, there's not a lot. It's like, thus sayeth the Lord, do it this way. And, and I think we have to be honest about that.

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So there's deductions that we make in the qualifications of Timothy and the president's acts and those kinds of stuff.

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But at the same time, what is prescriptive is the authority of men and the role of women in the church.

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It's, it's, it's prescribed. Amen. And so the, the title is not as much prescribed except for master and elder, those kinds of things.

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Those are prescribed to be apt to teach and those kinds of things of that nature. But when it comes to deacon,

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I think it really boils down to a conversation of what role does that deacon have? What authority do they have in the church?

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And I think that's important to unpack as we have conversations about the roles of deacons, you know, because every church has some, a level of autonomy and how that's handled at least in Baptist life.

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There's some autonomy there. So anyways, not to give a lecture, but Tyler, I'm glad this next, since we talked about this before the show went on,

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I'm glad this next question falls in your lap. I'm interested to see what, how you answer this question.

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So what is, what is the Greek word for deacon? And, and what is its range of meanings in, in the

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New Testament? So the word where we get deacon is pastor

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John actually mentioned it. Deaconess. I might be mispronouncing that, but that that's where we get the word deacon in passages.

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Like Acts chapter six or five. I'm sorry about setting up men to serve.

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That's what we read about in first and second Timothy with the qualifications of a deaconess or deacon.

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We also read about it in Romans chapter 16, when Paul says,

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I commend to you the Roman church, Phoebe, a deaconess of the church.

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And so there's this, it's, it's one word, but it doesn't necessarily have one meaning.

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And so sometimes it's used across the landscape of the new Testament to describe a quote office of deacon, a very specific function in the, the way the church is set up and the way that it is led the way it's served.

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But sometimes it's used in a more generic sense in description of somebody who serves in the same way that it says in Romans 13, that the government is a deaconess of God.

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It is a deacon of God. And we're not saying that Obama is a deacon of his church or saying that the government in the way it relates to God and to the church is like that of a servant.

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And so sometimes it's very specific. Sometimes it's very generic and that plays in as we approach how the

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Bible uses the word deacon. That sometimes we're talking about an office. Sometimes we're talking about qualifications of that office, but at the same token, there is an element to where we are all small

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D deacons that we are all lowercase servants of the church. If that helps.

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Absolutely. Claude, I want to ask you this question before I get to the question on the list, because I think it's relevant to the question that I'm going to ask you because it's a, it's an observation that I've made and I'm just curious your thoughts on my observation.

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So we pretty much agree that there's two offices, elders and deacons or pastors and deacons.

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And so when do we know it's just a general use of servant or minister and the actual office?

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My observation is, and just curious what your thoughts are on my observation. It's usually speaking of the office when it's mentioned together with the other office of pastor and elder.

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If it's used by itself, it's usually talking about the general definition of servant, a table servant or whatever.

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Does that seem consistent? I would, I would say, yeah, particularly like referencing

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Philippians, right? Also, which are in Philippi with elders and the deacons mentioned as an office.

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Right. Particularly as well in the letter to Timothy, again, he gives stipulations qualifications or the quote unquote office.

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Now, so I'm short answer. I agree. I agree with what you're saying there.

26:43

Okay. Here's the, here's the next questions and I'll go ahead and ask both of them. I think their context questions, which is kind of why

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I wanted to ask you that. And this is good for all interpretation, not just this topic, but, but the question is, does context matter in determining which meaning we use?

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And therefore, does it help us understand the meaning of the context? And then what are the dangers in ignoring the context to determine the meaning of the word deacon?

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And again, the context and application. I'll start on that.

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I'll go with your last question. First, what are the dangers in ignoring the context to determine the meaning of the word deacon?

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And again, the context and the application itself, the dangers are drifting away from the inspiration, sufficiency and authority of the scripture itself.

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I'd say that's the great danger because anytime that we lean away from the text of scripture, we're what we're doing is leaning on our own understanding.

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And like Proverbs is, you know, the wisdom Solomon there, they not under your own understanding, but in all your ways, acknowledge the

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Lord, acknowledge him and he will direct your path. That's the danger. And there's no, there's no more dangerous place to be than outside of the boundaries of the text of scripture.

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Does anybody want to tackle that question or the previous one? Does context context matter in determining the meaning of the use of the word?

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And, and then help us understand the meaning of the context. It kind of works in both, both ways.

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So when you say context, you're talking about scriptural context. I want clarification on that or, or, or location to context, or I would,

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I would say all the above, because I think there would be a consensus on how we interpret scripture, grammatical, historical.

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So we take all those things into consideration, but, but sure, we definitely start with the immediate context and the greater context of scripture.

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And then we bring in the cultural and historical geographical. So, yeah,

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I would, I would include all that. I guess I'm just asking, even as far as like a modern context.

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So you know what I'm saying? That's. But yeah, so you, so we're starting biblical context, right?

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So I think of course the context,

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I think that's exactly what Tyler explained to us. You know, he gave an excellent explanation.

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And, and giving that, I think the context context is the defining portion of it.

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Are we talking about a servant or are we talking about the office of the, and I think that is the defining aspect of it in biblical standards.

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What do you think, Dan? Oh man, I got a lot. Yeah. I absolutely think the context matters in, in how you interpret stuff like this and how you interpret stuff everywhere.

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But the, the specific passage in Timothy, there's, there's more to it than which use of Deacon is being used here.

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There's some other words that are used throughout that have to guide how we understand and interpret that passage.

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For instance, he gets in to it in the first bit of chapter three says it's a trustworthy statement.

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If any man aspires, the office of the overseer, it's a fine work that he desires to do.

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And it goes through and it gives you the entire qualifications for an elder. And then it says Deacons, likewise.

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So Deacons, likewise changing from one office to another, the office of Deacon has to be understood the same way as office of an elder.

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These are the qualifications. If you were going to be a Deacon, but then in verse 11, it says women, likewise must be, and then it gives a qualification for women.

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I know a lot of Bible translations out there will say their wives, but their wives is not in the

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Greek. It's just the word for women. So it says women, likewise.

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So there's a qualification here for a woman in some form or fashion to be serving or to be upheld to.

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And it says they must be dignified, not malicious gossips, temperate, faithful in all things.

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And then he continues on talking about Deacons. So there's a book in there where that thing about women is pulled up into the conversation of what it means to be a

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Deacon. So it says that Deacons must be husbands of one wife only. I think that's just saying that a person must be a faithful spouse to their spouse.

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Obviously the husband ruling the house has the further qualification of managing their house.

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Well, but a wife also is supposed to be taking care of her children and managing her house under the authority of her husband.

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So I think that this passage is actually giving us a qualification for women to be in the

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Deaconate, going by the context that's here.

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I would say, I would argue there. I would say that the bookends themselves dictate that it's male in role rather than their wives being the

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Deacon in the female role. So what do you do in verse 11? That's what

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I'm saying. You talked about the bookend there. Verse 12 in verse 8, the first verse 8, likewise,

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Deacons must be not doubletones, right? They must hold the mystery of faith in their pure conscience. And of course, verse 11, yes, it described their wives.

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Their is a specific, or their. Their is not in the Greek. The Greek is

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Guna, right? Or Gena, however it's pronounced. Yeah. Guna. Yeah.

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The Greek there is Guna. But again, when you go down to 12, it's clear that it's bringing back the hierarchy there.

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The hierarchical order that the Lord has set up. Because everywhere else, the women, the role of women is not set above or equal to the role of man.

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The role of women throughout the text of Scripture is always, well, God first, the husband, then the wife.

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But there's no. There's no bringing. I'll get in trouble for this.

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Y 'all just smile through this. We're not putting down women.

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We all agree there. Amen. We're not saying men are better than women. We are equal in God's eyes.

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However, the role of authority that the Lord has given to men in the church itself is hierarchical.

34:29

In order. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But the office of a deacon is not one that's vested with authority.

34:38

It's a servant role by nature. Right. It's like what Jonathan brought out a good point.

34:43

There's no prescriptive text for the role of deacon. Right.

34:49

That's what you said earlier. Right, Jonathan, but not it, which I thought was a wonderful description there.

34:55

But as far as the role goes, the bookends that you spoke about there,

35:00

Dan, I would go just the opposite way is what you're going on that. I would say that the bookends clarify the context.

35:09

So what does verse 11 mean then? It means the woman is a woman, but it's also used just as many times in scripture as wife and wives.

35:21

And so at the same time, it's not a misinterpretation to say, likewise, their wives must also be.

35:28

And that's why I think most, most English translations use the word wife or wives because it's, it's speaking of, then he goes right into the next clarification.

35:39

It's those who speak about the family, the husband of one wife. So he's saying that that whole group of bringing in the word woman or wives is, is bringing bracketing one who manages his household.

35:53

Well, so in other words, if there's a woman that is a slanderer and out of line gossip, then that man is not managing household well, and it's not oppressive.

36:04

It's not like beating her with a wet noodle at night or whatever, you know, that kind of stuff. But that's how

36:09

I interpret that because it's as equally used all throughout scripture, wives as it is woman.

36:16

So it's right. But there's gotta be a context here.

36:21

And the context doesn't give any clue that you're talking about a wife because there's no parallel up above when you're talking about the elder, but the very next person doesn't give a qualification for an elder's wife that she has to follow.

36:35

And she has to be found worthy in any sort of fashion. So why then would the deacon wife have to go to a stricter standard than the elder's wife?

36:43

Can I interject an observation? I was trying to look over, Claude sent me an article by grace to you,

36:50

John MacArthur's ministry and about this. And it seems like Claude, correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like that article kind of leans toward the interpretation that Dan is giving, but here was my observation of that article because I was,

37:04

I was trying to look at some of their arguments and here was, here was one of their arguments that's relevant to this discussion,

37:10

I think. So you're, you're in verse 11 and I can't, I don't know if it was

37:16

MacArthur or who the author was of that article, but from grace to you, they, they use the word likewise refer back to the, the office.

37:26

So their conclusion was just like in verse eight, likewise is referring back to the office in a similar fashion as the, the pastor or overseer.

37:39

And in verse 11, likewise or in similar fashion as the, the pastor.

37:46

But if, if that's the case, if that's the actual case that there's, this is a third office,

37:52

Deaconess and it's likewise is referring back to the, the office, then you would have to go back and, and rethink who can hold the office of pastor.

38:07

Could it be women then if this is, if likewise is referring to the office, because you're making that argument for, for Deacon though, my observation is when it says in verse 11, likewise, it's, it could be,

38:22

I'm not being definitive, but it could be speaking to the woman's relationship to the pastor and to the

38:33

Deacon, not to the office, but to the person holding the office. And, and I could see that except that it is contained within discussion of Deacon on both sides in verse eight, nine, 10.

38:47

Then you have the discussion about women in verse 11. Then you come back to Deacon in verse 12. So it's self contained in, in the discussion of what it means to be a

38:56

Deacon. Whereas you don't have that discussion of what it would mean for a woman to be an elder, because that's not, that's not something that Paul is allowing for.

39:08

Cause he says other where other places explicitly, I don't allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man.

39:13

In fact, it's on the previous page, if I'm not mistaken, depending on how big the text is or whatever.

39:21

Yeah. I mean, the previous page, actually mine's right above it. Yeah. Because even in, even in verse 13, it goes on and says, for those who served well as Deacons obtained for themselves a high standing.

39:42

So the whole paragraph there is speaking about Deacons. I don't see a flip flop or moving back and forth.

39:48

He goes from one office of elder. And then he goes on to a discussion of the office of Deacon. And he continues that throughout the rest of the, the paragraph.

39:56

And then going into the next paragraph, he, he just talks to Timothy, you know,

40:04

I'm writing you this things. I'm hoping to come see you. And you know, we'll be one big, happy family church.

40:12

Right. I had one other observation based on arguments you were making about.

40:18

It doesn't describe it as a leadership role. And it goes back to the article that I was reading earlier. It spoke of people use the ax passage as a

40:29

Deacon passage. And their estimation was that now they, again, they lean more towards your interpretation, but they did make the observation that there were probably around, this was their estimate, 20 ,000 people there.

40:44

So how can seven men serve 20 ,000 people? And the only way that I could, as, as John used the word

40:53

Jonathan used earlier, the deuce, the plan there was for these seven men to have a leadership role and then the serving.

41:05

Does that make sense? It's not, it's not explicit. So that's why I can't be dogmatic. That makes sense.

41:13

And even in, in our denomination there there's talk of us going back and revisiting this topic to include a, a sort of a secondary tier where, where woman is, is not just a gender.

41:30

It is a gender, by the way, one of two, but there's some talk about going back and revisiting.

41:46

No, what if, if it listing a woman separately in verse 11, in the context of being a beacon, if that could mean a different role where they are, serving orphans and widows exclusively.

42:04

And that the, the giving out of arms and decision -making authority aspects of the role of a deacon would actually go to a man.

42:15

That was John Calvin's view of the role of a deacon. You'd have to read him on it.

42:21

He's got other nuances and stuff, but that was his understanding that a woman could serve as a deaconess, but that her, her role would be tempered.

42:29

So that's what

42:36

I was saying earlier there.

42:42

I think the nuance of what Dan's bringing out, I'm glad you brought it out. I really think it boils down to a vote of authority and roles.

42:52

I think that's, I think to me, not to hijack the conversation. They're taking a different direction, but I really think the whole debate.

43:01

really is a misdebate if we're only talking about a title.

43:07

We're not talking about the responsibility attached with that title. Because, I mean, if we're in Titus and older women,

43:17

Titus 2, where it is prescriptive, it's like, do this. So older women, likewise, are to be reverent in behavior, not slanders or slaves or drink too much wine.

43:28

They have to teach what is good. And so train the young women to love their husbands. So that Titus passage in chapter two very closely parallels

43:36

Timothy 3. To not be slanderers, to not be drunks. And then here's who you teach.

43:43

You older women teach the younger women and teach the children of the household to love your husbands and this is how you do it.

43:51

So teach them to be self -controlled, pure, working at home, kind and submissive to their husband. You know what

43:56

I'm saying? And so that's where I wouldn't get all bent out of shape if there's an older woman in the church that's the deacon of women, the deacon of women's ministry.

44:07

If they wanna call her deacon of women's ministry and it's an older woman training up young women and she fulfills these qualifications,

44:14

I don't think we should get all bent out of shape with that on the title, but the role fits a biblical prescription.

44:23

Does that make sense? I mean, because there is an absolute prescription of who should be teaching who, who should be discipling who, and who should be, you older men, you're training up the younger men, you older women, you're training up the younger women.

44:38

That's absolutely definitive. And I think that's what is the heart of the discussion.

44:44

That's what's at the heart of the debate is the authority and the roles, not as much the title.

44:50

Right, if you muddy up and blur the lines between elder and deacon, everything

44:56

I just brought up, it goes off the rails. That's right. You have to have that well -defined understanding of what each one does.

45:08

And if you blur the two or you use your deacons as elders, the whole thing falls apart because you end up going against parts of scripture that are very, very clear.

45:20

And when you interpret everything together, you have to find that place where you're not going against anything else that the scripture is actually saying.

45:31

Because when you do, like you could be right on something and then apply it in a wrong way because of just what you were saying.

45:37

If you get your, basically, if you get the job title wrong, you can apply something rightly and then screw it up.

45:48

And the whole point there in Titus was, it says this, so that no one will malign the word of God.

45:55

Right. So that no one will abuse or defile the things that God has written.

46:04

And I think that's why this is a hard subject because that's what we're striving for is that the protection of what the word of God is actually saying.

46:16

And Adrian Rogers and I, I wish I could sit down and talk with him today. I think he and I would have a lot to talk about. I listen to a lot of,

46:22

I grew up listening to him every Sunday morning, and all those kinds of stuff. I'm sure there's things that we would find when it comes to reformed theology or all those kinds of stuff that we would disagree on.

46:32

But there is one thing that I do agree with him. And it was a post that I saw, it was a repeat post from a convention that he had preached that years ago.

46:42

There was the moderate side told him, said, brother Adrian, if we don't lay some of these things down, we're not gonna be able to get together.

46:50

And his response was, we don't have to get together. Yeah. Like we don't have to. And that's the thing, guys, that's the hard part with what we're talking about because there's such a culture of hyper -tolerance and relativism that anybody that says, hey, this is what the

47:07

Bible says. Well, then they'll come back and say, no, that's what the Bible says to you. Let me say what the

47:13

Bible said to me. And that is not what we're after. I really don't care about my opinion or your opinion.

47:20

I wanna know what God's opinion is and what the Bible says. And that's what we're striving for. Does that make sense? And we all agree on that 100%.

47:26

So that's why though, I'm just bringing up the definitives are definitely the authority and the roles.

47:37

And then the offices are there, but no one's gonna say that there should be authority of a woman over a man.

47:44

And so if that's how the role of a deacon is defined, then if the deacon is authority in the church, then it can't be a woman.

47:55

But if deacon is not authoritative, then maybe so.

48:01

And that's why I was giving my little lecture earlier that there's been this like waffling.

48:08

And I don't think when it comes to the role of deacon, it's not as cut and dry because every church has its own little, just like there's no prescriptive way that God said, okay, here's the six ways that you're going to lead the church.

48:26

He gave these offices in there. And for what? For the equipping of the saints, for the work of ministry,

48:33

Ephesians four. So you have these things that God gave, but at the end of the day, what are the roles?

48:40

And so that's why I'm saying in our church, the deacon does have a level of authority and does have a level of decision -making over certain things.

48:49

He's still under the authority of the elders and under the direction of the elders, but also they have decision -making authority over building and grounds and over other things of that nature.

48:58

And so therefore, for us, it's become very clear that it's a man's responsibility.

49:05

It's a man's role. But I am not there going to say that the role of the women in our church is replaceable.

49:11

It's not, because in the church plant, I can tell you right now, we've got some sorry men.

49:17

I'm just kidding. It's not. You ever hear that on Father's Day? Mothers are like, oh, you're so loved and you're so gracious and you're so gracious.

49:26

And then Father's Day, it's like, you sorry bunch of men. You know, you make that stuff up and you know. No, I'm just kidding.

49:33

We've got some great men of God in our church too. But I can promise you as a church plant that we're in our 10th year now, praise

49:41

God, we would not have survived if it weren't for the hand of God on some anointed women that have been tremendous servants in our church.

49:49

And that's why I think the Romans passage and Paul talking about Phoebe is so precious and so special because basically what

49:57

Paul's saying is, receive this woman as worthy of a saint.

50:03

Like he's been a patron and basically he's saying this ministry would not be existing had it not been for this woman of God.

50:11

And so I just think that's why it's such a sense and subject is to recognize that.

50:18

I'll be quiet, sorry. Tyler, I wanna get to you next. I wanna make sure, Big John, are you still with us? It's like he's still online, but he's not audio or audio.

50:32

Okay. We'll have to check in with him in a second. Tyler, I wanna get to you next, but I don't want to fail to address

50:38

Becky's questions. So her first question was, why would Phoebe, and this is what

50:43

Jonathan brought up in Romans, why would Phoebe be a deacon? And then it'd be unbiblical. I'm gonna take a shot at it, and then somebody else can take a shot at it.

50:53

So the word deacon is used there in some translations, but that will be up to the translator, right?

51:02

So the same Greek word is used throughout the scripture for minister, servant, or deacon.

51:09

It's just up to the English translator, what they wanna use. My observation that I mentioned earlier was, in this particular case, it's not mentioned in the same context as the other office.

51:24

And you have other passages in our list here that we're probably not gonna get to look at, where Paul mentions himself as a deacon or a servant.

51:35

But we know that he wasn't in the office of deacon, he was an apostle. So I don't think it's conclusive enough or clear enough that we could say she held that office.

51:47

That's just, that's how I'm viewing it. Does anybody have a different perspective? So in terms of the question of Phoebe, I do think that it was biblical to call her a deacon in the sense that us as Christians, every single one of us in the church is a type of deacon, that we are servants in the church.

52:13

And I think Paul was invoking that generic language that she is a faithful servant of the church in the same way that he does in the preceding chapter, chapter 15, when he calls

52:24

Jesus a deacon of the church. And while Phoebe is not

52:29

Jesus in any sense of the term, just looking at the overall context of Romans and who he's writing to and how he's writing to them,

52:39

Paul uses the term deacon very differently here than he does when he's writing to Timothy.

52:45

And he's using it very generically, we're not talking about a quote office or authority or anything like that, we're talking about servants.

52:53

We're talking about people that are accountable. We're talking about people that are laying things down to serve the church.

53:00

If you read the whole of Romans 16, with all of these people that he's greeting, Paul is listening men, he's listening women, he's listening people named after pagan gods.

53:11

This is a mosaic of people that God is using in different ways and different functions.

53:18

The thing about mosaics is all those pieces are not all the same size or shape, but they all contribute to the same picture.

53:26

And so I think it was biblical to say Phoebe was a deacon because they didn't have the same understanding that we have of the word deacon, that we have in some ways made this to be something it's not, it seems a lot of times, that it is like Robert was saying about this decision board.

53:43

And this is the posse that runs the church, but I don't think that's what Paul was meaning by the term deacon.

53:50

I think it was a generic, this is someone who serves the church. And are we not all deacons in that sense?

54:00

And the only distinction, if I can add two cents on Phoebe, it is clear in the text, she was leading in something because basically we don't know what, we don't know specifically what ministry she was leading in, but Paul gives instruction to receive her and then assist her in anything that she needs.

54:21

And so she was doing something specific that had given her that title of servant.

54:30

Now, whether it's office or not, I don't think it is either. I agree with you, Tyler. But that doesn't mean women are just sitting around and doing nothing.

54:39

It is clear that Phoebe was serving and the rest of the church, it's not just the other women of the church, it means the men of the church, whoever, he has given instruction that you receive her as what becometh of a saint and you assist her in whatever business she has need of, whatever business she's gonna, because she's been a great supporter of Paul in the church planning ministry and those things that he's done.

55:06

So I think it's worthwhile noting, she got that compliment of being a servant of the church by what she was doing.

55:16

And I don't even mind using the word leading out in or leading in that, but we don't know specifically what that is.

55:24

And then Paul's expectation is she's assisted given whatever she needs, because she's worthy of that.

55:29

So it is an esteemed verse for this woman, a woman of God, no doubt.

55:37

Dan, did you wanna jump in? Yeah, I got a totally different take on that. Okay. It says our sister

55:45

Phoebe, who is a deacon of the church, they just calls her a deacon right there.

55:50

And that would be a weird thing to hear in the church in that time, that a woman has a position, an office in the church.

56:01

And so here it says, is a servant of the church, deacon in the church and a specific church.

56:08

The one right there, the name is her church. And it's telling people, receive her in the

56:14

Lord in the manner worthy of the saints, help her execute what she's doing, anything that she needs, she's a helper and she's helped me too.

56:25

So I think that whole thing is saying, yeah, she's a deacon and y 'all need to help her be a deacon because she's doing the

56:32

Lord's work here. I think Becky's next question,

56:37

Jonathan, is referencing something that you were talking about. It's teaching part of the role of the deacon.

56:42

And I think you brought up the roles that the Bible specifically gives to us, women teaching young women.

56:50

So I think she was referencing your conversation. So how would you answer that question there?

56:56

Is teaching part of the role of the deacon? I thought it was an elder's job. So it is not required as a qualification in 1

57:06

Timothy. I was referencing apt to teach is a qualification of an elder, that is a requirement of an elder.

57:16

Being apt to teach is not a requirement in Timothy as holding the office of deacon.

57:26

And so the answer is no, but did deacons teach?

57:33

Well, we can look at Stephen who was of that first seven, who became a great evangelist and a great revivalist and a great preacher.

57:41

And the first Christian martyr was a deacon. And so could it happen that deacons that are men that are called to preach, they could, but are they required as a qualification to be a deacon?

57:56

The answer is no. And where there is a role, what I was referencing was in Titus chapter two, that I was affirming part of Dan's argument, even though we're not on the exact same page on that,

58:12

I was also still some in that it feels like I'm waffling. I don't mean to, but what

58:18

I'm saying is I'm affirming that there's validation in that argument because in Titus two, the qualifications of the older women sound very much parallel with the qualifications of deacon in Timothy chapter three.

58:33

And so for that woman, then if this woman, this older woman is to be a deacon, then there is specific direction of who she is to teach.

58:41

And it's that the older women should be teaching the younger women. There's like very specific prescribed direction of who is teaching who and who is discipling who in the body of Christ.

58:53

And so that's what I was referencing teaching. So I would say for the office of deacon, teaching is not a required part of the role, but it could be possible that a deacon does.

59:05

And then to echo Tyler's part, I think everybody's teaching everybody.

59:11

Everybody is a little dee deacon, we're all to be making disciples and then there's best practice in discipleship.

59:18

So I think those are great questions and I hope that answers that. Yeah, yeah. All right, guys, here's how

59:23

I wanna wrap things up. Tyler, it looks like you had your book up. So I wanna give you a chance to, if you had something in mind that you wanted to say,

59:31

I'll give you the opportunity. So you go first. Claude, the question for you is after Tyler is in our differences, where have you seen unity among us tonight?

59:41

And then Dan, if you'll share the gospel with us and Jonathan, Pastor Jonathan, if you'll close us in prayer.

59:48

So Tyler, go ahead and jump in there if you have any last comments. No, I actually had to go grab my

59:54

Greek New Testament to keep up with you guys. So I've got a

01:00:00

Bible and a New Testament in Greek in front of me. Gotcha, gotcha. Fantastic.

01:00:05

Claude, where have you seen unity among us, among our differences? I know there's a lot of other nuances that we could have looked at, but where have you seen unity tonight?

01:00:12

I think the unity is in our understanding and the distinction between the role or the office and the general view of service.

01:00:27

That's where the word, the Akinos is used, it's used three different ways, particularly in context in some, generally in context in others.

01:00:39

So I would say the unity is that we all recognize the importance and I particularly want to echo what

01:00:51

Jonathan said there about the importance of women in the church.

01:00:58

We are not discounting the importance of females in the church.

01:01:05

The church would, I think we would, I think if we're honest, I think probably

01:01:11

I'd have to say 98 % of churches that we know of would collapse if it wasn't for the faithfulness, the love and the care and the work that the women do in our churches.

01:01:26

So I'd say there's unity there. And again, last of all, I would just echo unity in the scriptures because we see this throughout the text in Mark 15, 41, when he was in Galilee, speaking of Jesus, they followed him and ministered to him.

01:01:40

And there were also many other women who came up with him to Jerusalem. Dan, would you share the gospel?

01:01:49

Yeah, sure. One more area of unity though, before we get there one. One of the questions down here at the bottom that you had was do we have creative license to be able to follow the culture or go out beyond the bounds of scripture?

01:02:09

And the answer is no. Amen. And we all agree on that.

01:02:15

If I'd come to you four with a culturally based feel good argument, you would have probably laughed at me and rightfully so.

01:02:26

Because if we're going to come to conclusions, we're going to come to conclusions based on the word of God because that's where our authority lies.

01:02:34

So there's a point of view. You know, we can agree on the Bible, go to the Bible and then fight it out all the way to heaven and join each other's company.

01:02:44

But another point of unity, the best point of unity is that we came around here to talk about the word of God.

01:02:52

The word of God tells us very clearly who we are. And all of us disqualified in some way because we are horrible, rotten, terrible sinners.

01:03:04

I mean, to the bit of the... And it's terrible to see what's going on in the world, to see the sin that's running rampant and to know that the real problem is not, whether there's guns or this or that, the real problem is sin.

01:03:23

It's in the heart of each and every one of us that oozes out and looks like political problems and personal problems and just the mess that we've caused in this world because we rebelled against God and of sin.

01:03:40

And God saw that, knew that and planned for it ahead of time and sent his son into the world to live a perfect life, to take that sin to himself, to pay for the consequences of it upon the cross and to go to the grave and raise up from the grave, defeating sin, death and the devil.

01:04:00

That is fantastic news because that means that that sin that holds us down, that weighs on us, that chains and binds us up is being dealt with, it's being taken away and that we will one day have the opportunity to live without it because Christ has paid for the penalty of sin.

01:04:20

So if you do not know Jesus that I'm talking about tonight, I pray that if you don't listen to anything else, listen to that and get to know him, trust in him, believe in the gospel that he has come and died in the place of sinners and you'll find him to be a true and perfect savior.

01:04:39

Jonathan, close us in prayer if you will. Amen. Father, we thank you for your word and I thank you for brotherhood and the family of God.

01:04:48

Thank you for our sisters who labor diligently among the body as well.

01:04:55

Lord, how you are building your church and I thank you for honest conversation tonight.

01:05:02

I thank you for studied conversation that is, as Dan said, it's not just a bunch of guys pulling stuff out of the air and how we feel, but Lord, we're digging into your word, we're digging into those contexts and we're diligently wanting to be faithful to uphold your word and we thank you and I thank you tonight for brothers who are 100 % unified in that together.

01:05:28

Lord, we can always find things that we can disagree or nuances that we can discuss, but at the end of the day,

01:05:36

Jesus, we all 100 % agree on what Dan just shared with us, that we are lost and undone without you, that we praise you, that we are saved and redeemed in you and we put our hope and faith in that.

01:05:49

And Father, for anyone that hears this podcast tonight, I pray that if they don't know you, they're not distracted by a discussion about women in ministry or women deacons, but they will hear the good news of the gospel, a group of men that desperately need you,

01:06:06

Jesus, every day, completely rely on you every day and praise you for the salvation we have in you and that Jesus, you'll be lifted up and that people will receive you and know you as Lord and Savior.

01:06:21

I pray you bless this ministry and I pray you bless every ear that hears and eye that sees, that they'll be drawn in closer to you.

01:06:28

We give you glory in this opportunity to parse through your word and to work through these things together.

01:06:34

Thank you for brotherhood, Lord. Thank you. Amen. Thank you everyone for watching.

01:06:41

Thank you for encouraging us by watching. We hope that you were edified and it was useful to you to listen to this discussion.

01:06:50

Remember that Jesus is King. Go live in the victory of Christ. Go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.