The Laborers' Podcast- Women Deacons?

Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the Laborers podcast. We are so thankful that you decided to join us and watch. We would appreciate it if you would share. We are joining together to show our unity, share the message of Christ, share the truth of God's word with you, with our community.

And we want to lock arms with you as we do that. We love doing ministry together. And so if you have any questions, give us a shout. Let us know that you're watching. We would really appreciate it. Appreciate the share, the like, and the follow, and all that good jazz.

We appreciate it. So I apologize for my voice. I'm a little sick tonight. I hope these brothers can carry me tonight the best that they can. We changed our topic last minute, which I'm glad it was suggested.

We were going to talk about, or continue in our series on a healthy church. And we're going to talk about the gospel and conversion in a healthy church. But it was mentioned since we were talking about leadership in the church, and we were talking about the two offices in the church.

We kind of focused on one, since that was also a hot topic here recently with the Southern Baptist Convention. We kind of neglected the other office that we said, that we saw in scripture. So it was recommended that we look at that office.

And one of the big conversations when it does come up is are women allowed biblically to hold the office of deacon? And so we want to discuss that tonight. So with that being said, we've got Claude, the Happy Calvinist, Tyler from Bread of the Word podcast.

We got Big John from, what's the name of your podcast?

Real Talk with Big John.

That's right. And we got Dan who joins me on Truth and Love. You can find all those podcasts on the website through our ministries. I'll encourage you to listen to all of them. How are you guys doing tonight?

Doing good.

I'm sorry if I seem distracted. I'm trying to share this out live, but I'm not having a lot of success.

It seems like I struggle as well trying to do all these things at one time and multitask. So let's jump right in. Let's jump right in with the conversation and see where it takes us. We'll start next week back on the conversation of what is the gospel or what the gospel looks like and what does conversion look like in a biblically healthy church.

The Biblical Offices of Elder and Deacon

But tonight, are women allowed biblically to hold the office of deacon? So Dan, let's start with you at the bottom corner there. And go with the first question. What are the offices? And this is kind of a recap of last one.

What are the offices that the Bible gives us for a local church?

I believe there are two offices, the office of elder, the office of deacon. How in depth do you wanna go on the recap?

You can give a little brief description, a little bit deeper.

All right, so elder, basically, you'd think of when you think of a pastor or someone who is spiritually qualified as a leader in the church, called out, separated, hands laid on them to be a spiritual guide, leader, and cornerstone pillar in the church.

They have to be able to teach and lead the people well. Then you have the office of a deacon, which is a servant role, which is to take care of basically the orphans and widows and to help dole out monies, alms, and to generally serve the church in its work of, how you'd put it, caring for the body and the world around us in a more physical, tangible, earthly, physical, material sense.

Gotcha.

Hey, John.

Hey, Jonathan, how you doing?

My brothers, how are you?

Good, good, good. We just answered the first question, what are the biblical offices in a church? Here's the next question, John, or Big John. I'm gonna try to figure out a way to distinguish you two guys.

So here's my comment first. Based on last podcast, I think we have a consistent consensus with each other. Now, I'm not so sure from your background, and it's okay. We had the consensus that the biblical office of pastor is for qualified men only, and I'm not sure about your background, your denominational background, and that's okay.

But the question is, go ahead, go ahead, yeah.

I would say the Church of God allows for women to be pastors and elders in a church now. They don't allow them to be bishops in the church. I think that that's been voted on many times. They push, it seems like it's forever being pushed, every general assembly, to go further in that direction.

I don't know how to shake you out.

But they do make a distinction, though, at some level.

Yeah, up until recently, a woman could not pastor. She could preach, but there had to be a man, she had to be serving under a male pastor. Typically, it was their husband. In fact, I can only think of one example, except for, oh my goodness.

Brother Robert, do you remember that prayer meeting we used to have on Saturday morning with Brandon? You remember a sister named Gloria?

I do not.

It came on there. There was only one lady that ever give a devotion. In any case, she is actually the pastor of Southside Church of God in China Grove. And she is the only female pastor that I know of, personally know.

And to my knowledge, that's a pretty recent development that they've allowed for women to actually hold the pastorate of a church. I can't tell you when that started, though. I'm not a Church of God historian.

If I disagree with it, I think it's pretty clear, Timothy. My understanding is right here. These are trustworthy. If anyone desires to be an overseer, that'd be a bishop. And I'll go down to verse eight.

Deacons, likewise, should be worthy of respect, not hypocritical, not drinking a lot of wine, not greedy or money, holding a man with a clear conscience. And they must also be tested. If they prove blameless, they can serve as deacons.

And then it says, wives, too, must be of respect. It's assumed, or at least it's put in this, it's assumed that they must be the husband of one wife, which kind of leaves women out of that, in my eyes, anyway.

Was that, did I answer the question he was asking? I apologize if I skipped ahead.

Hello?

I think Robert froze.

He's taking a real hard long stare, what that is.

Look at that.

Oh, man, he picked him off. I'm telling you.

Yeah, I'm on a tower right now. This is scary.

He said, look at that.

I mean, he hasn't even blinked.

That sounded really upsetting, John.

I'm telling you, I'm sorry.

He's froze right now. We're not afraid of you.

What's that?

Look how serious, all right, let's move, let's move, let's keep on moving around the table then. Let's go to Pastor John here. Pastor John the Ninja. By the way, that picture of you doing that kick is still awesome.

It's forever burned in my brain.

Thank you.

So we're gonna take on the Greek definition of deacon. Is that where we're at then?

Are we, are we done? Yeah, if you want to, go ahead and tackle that, and then we'll get Rob to get us on track when he comes back.

Yeah, so, because we just deal with, you know, the consensus about men being pastors and then basically the Greek word for deacon. And so, I mean, is there any other comments on pastoring though? I mean, any other comments that need to be made on that from a pastor standpoint?

I don't think so. I think we covered that.

Only question I'd like to ask, John, is why do you think, sort of in the Pentecostal realm, that that is in movement of that direction?

So I don't know. I'm a first generation Church of God man. I don't know how it was before. I've been in the Church of God since 2010. 2010, and they have allowed women to pastor, or not pastor, but they have allowed women to preach since 1906.

That was one of the first rules they made. Now, I'll say that there have been times throughout history that God used women in a mighty way inside the Church whenever, sadly, there was no man to do anything.

I don't know if it's in every Pentecostal church, Pastor John, or if it's just in the Church of God. I've never been associated with any other Pentecostal body.

A lot of the charismatic movement, which I don't associate all Pentecostal denominations with the charismatic movement. I don't wanna

I agree, I agree.

You know what I'm saying?

I do.

But Pentecostal and then Pentecostal leaning and then all the way through to more hyper charismatic movement stuff, you find that is where a lot of the momentum is, even a lot of the emotionalism that is attached to the charismaniacs is what I call.

I believe in the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

And God can do whatever he wants.

But all I'm trying to say is, but a lot of the hyper charismania stuff and things that's attached to emotionalism, and it's often led by women. I think that's the reason this is a big issue, and especially in a feminist hyper culture.

Because it bothers me, the reason I'm asking that question, I still consider, especially in our area, in our region, the Pentecostal holiness churches and Church of God churches. And even though there's things that doctrinally we disagree on, I would still consider them very conservative when it comes to fundamental theology.

I'd still consider them very, very conservative. And so I'm interested because then what we're seeing is there's a push in the Pentecostal world, and then there's also a push in the liberal world, and they're both going for the same thing of putting women in more authority in the pulpit and in church.

And so that's a strange place to see that that's becoming a topic as much as it is. And this is a hot topic for Baptist life right now, just across the board here, independent Baptist or whatever we are.

I mean, Southern Baptist or so on and so forth, it's obviously a very hot topic right now in that, but yet not compromised on yet, okay, when it comes to pastor and role of pastor and that kind of stuff.

But anyway, so that's just where I'm just curious.

I would interject here too, that it's not just in the charismatic area of Christianity, but it's in Methodism, it's in Anglican, it's in Presbyterian, it's in Baptist. I mean, because that's really where all this is, our conversation really coming from Rob's perspective here, that's where it's coming from, from a focus in all those.

It's not just one denomination that's facing these issues and that I'll say this, compromising on the truth of the scripture.

Amen.

What I meant by that Claude was, that's what I'm saying, it's confusing to me that a lot of our Pentecostal brethren that are very conservative, that are very different than the liberal side of the Methodist movement or the liberal side of the Presbyterian or the liberal side of the Loufer movements or those kinds of stuff, they're still holding the very conservative Orthodox Christian values, but yet on this one subject, are compromising.

And so that's what's confusing to me because they'll be extremely staunch on other things that are as equally clear in scripture, but on this one subject, it seems like it becomes relativism versus biblical truth because it's relative to the moment or it becomes relative,.

Well, the Holy Spirit's movement,.

So then I guess I'm the one to do this, and they, and again, I can say that because I get the opportunity to preach in a lot of Pentecostal churches and Church of God churches, and I'm thankful to get invited to those opportunities to do that, and I'll preach anywhere,.

People know that,.

But I don't care what your doctrine is,.

I'll go preach the gospel.

So that's all I'm trying to say.

Is I have really good friends in Pentecostal circles, and I'm asking them the same question, why is there a slide on this one specific issue when there is zero movement on any of the other moral issues of the day?

And so I'm just curious as to why, that's all I got, so.

Thank you guys for carrying on while my computer froze, but on that line of thinking, that conversation, that kind of leads to that question that I was leading up to because we just took a pause there and we got back on the topic of women pastors, elders.

And so why do we have, why do we not have as many discussions concerning it? And Jonathan, I'll let you continue. Why do we not have as many discussions concerning women deacons as we do women pastors?

The Qualifications and Role of Deacons in 1 Timothy 3

That's a good question, and I did some soul searching on this one in particular too, because if I'm real honest about the role of deacon, I've waffled through the years on that because I believe non-negotiably the role of pastor and the role of elders are clearly to be men without doubt, and I can find that precedent throughout scripture.

The only precedent we find when it comes to deacons is when Timothy is there and we find an ax, Timothy, the qualifications in an ax, look out among you men of good report, but then you have to, you can't ignore Paul's acknowledgement of the value of serving women that in the English translation, like Phoebe was obviously the same word for deaconess was used for her as in 1 Timothy 3.

So I've struggled with that and where I've landed personally, so let me say that where I've landed personally is I believe that the role in the office of deacon is still reserved for a man. I believe that because the very clear approach that John used was when we look at qualifications.

And how we qualify,.

It's a man of one woman, a one woman man, it's one that rules his house so well. It's pretty much the same qualifications as an elder except with the exception of apt to teach. A deacon is not required to be able to preach, but it still has to be doctrinally sound.

And so, but it's pretty much the same set of qualifications and as I mentioned here in Acts, when they first chose deacons, it says, look out among you men of good report. And so, but I also know that that's rooted in Jewish culture and so when you go over to Greek culture where Paul went, there was obviously women that he, that God used in the early formation of the church and so we should not just dismiss that as light or unnecessary in the current body.

And so that's where in my heart, there's been through the years shifting this up and down because I do believe pastor and elder is the authority and then if you had them as authority and deacons are not a deciding, a decision-making body, but they're table waiters.

When you get into the definition, table waiters and servants and those kinds of stuff, well, then could there be room for a woman to be a deacon to the other women? Could be those kinds of stuff and maybe perhaps, I don't know, but I think it just brings a lot of confusion and a lot of frustration in the body.

And so, and the reason this was hard, I wanted to give a background story real quick. When pastor Josh and I, we merged our churches together, he was gospel life and we were vertical church and when we merged our churches together, we were both pastor-led, elder-led churches, but he had from the DNA of the church that planted them, there were women deacons in their church, but it was not a decision-making body, it was very specifically, so it was like a deacon of hospitality.

And so, they would say, now a woman could hold that position as a deacon, servant of hospitality and assign them to that role. There's not a teaching position there, there's not an authoritative position there, basically a position of hospitality and magnificence.

But at the same time, when we did come together, that was an honest conversation we had and really what it all boiled back down to was just coming back to scripture, because when you come back to those qualifications and the normal precedent set in the New Testament church, the qualifications are obviously speaking of men.

And so, that's really lengthy. So, I just wanna give some background to that, just to say, when it comes to the role of deacon versus elder, in Baptist life, it becomes even more difficult because in Southern Baptist life, a majority of those churches are pastors and deacons, and that's it.

There's not a plurality of elders. There's really only one elder, which is the pastor, and then deacons who really serve as the board of deacons or the elders or the decision-making body in the church.

In that, I can confidently say, non-negotiably, that it should be all men, if that is how the structure of the church is done. And then where I personally extend a little more grace, if there is pastors and a plurality of elders, and then under that, there are servants that aren't shepherding, leading, authoritative, teaching, preaching, but they're serving in different capacities.

I don't get all twisted up over the term servant or deacon in that capacity, but in the normal Baptist church that I was raised in, there was the deacons that basically had the authority of the church, and in many times made the pastors to be hirelings, made the elders to be hirelings to the deacons, which is totally screwed up.

So I think you have to measure this in context of where it's at. But so the long and short of it is, I do think it's an important conversation, the role of deacon, and the role of deacon in that local church.

The final thing I'll say is, it's not our conviction as a local church, but I do think the Bible is more descriptive in the roles of deacons than it is prescriptive. There's not a lot that's like, thus saith the Lord, do it this way.

And I think we have to be honest about that. So there's deduction that we make in the qualifications of Timothy and the precedence of Acts and those kinds of stuff. But at the same time, what is prescriptive is the authority of men and the role of women in the church.

It's prescribed.

Amen.

And so the title is not as much prescribed except for pastor and elder, those kinds of things. Those are prescribed to be apt to teach and those kinds of things of that nature. But when it comes to deacon, I think it really boils down to a conversation of what role does that deacon have?

What authority do they have in the church? And I think that's important to unpack as we have conversations about the roles of deacons. Because every church has a level of autonomy in how that's handled, at least in Baptist life.

There's some autonomy there. So anyway, it's not to give a lecture, but.

The Meaning of Diakonos and the Office of Service

Tyler, I'm glad this next, since we talked about this before the show went on, I'm glad this next question falls in your lap. I'm interested to see how you answer this question. So what is the Greek word for deacon and what is its range of meanings in the New Testament?

So the word where we get deacon is pastor John actually mentioned it, diakonos. I might be mispronouncing that, but that's where we get the word deacon in passages like Acts chapter six. Five, I'm sorry, about setting up men to serve.

That's what we read about in first and second Timothy with the qualifications of a diakonos or deacon. We also read about it in Romans chapter 16, when Paul says, I commend to you the Roman church Phoebe, a diakonos of the church.

And so there's this, it's one word, but it doesn't necessarily have one meaning. And so sometimes it's used across the landscape of the New Testament to describe a quote, office of deacon, a very specific function in the way the church is set up and the way that it is led, the way it's served.

But sometimes it's used in a more generic sense in description of somebody who serves in the same way that it says in Romans 13, that the government is a diakonos of God. It is a deacon of God. And we're not saying that Obama is a deacon of his church or saying that the government in the way it relates to God and to the church is like that of a servant.

And so sometimes it's very specific. Sometimes it's very generic. And that plays in as we approach how the Bible uses the word deacon, that sometimes we're talking about an office. Sometimes we're talking about qualifications of that office, but at the same token, there is an element to where we are all small d deacons, that we are all lowercase servants of the church, if that helps.

Absolutely. Claude, I'm gonna ask you this question before I get to the question on the list, because I think it's relevant to the question that I'm gonna ask you, because it's an observation that I made and I'm just curious your thoughts on my observation.

So we pretty much agree that there's two offices, elders and deacons or pastors and deacons. And so when do we know it's just a general use of servant or minister and the actual office? My observation is, and just curious what your thoughts are on my observation.

It's usually speaking of the office when it's mentioned together with the other office of pastor and elder. If it's used by itself, it's usually talking about the general definition of servant, a table servant or whatever.

Does that seem consistent?

I would say, yeah, particularly like referencing Philippians, the writings of the saints, which are in Philippi with elders and the deacons mentioned as an office, right, particularly as well in the letter to Timothy.

Again, he gives stipulations, qualifications or the quote unquote office. Now, so short answer, I agree. I agree with what you're saying there.

Okay, here's the next questions and I'll go ahead and ask both of them. I think they're context questions, which is kind of why I wanted to ask you that. And this is good for all interpretation, not just this topic.

But the question is, does context matter in determining which meaning we use and therefore does it help us understand the meaning of the context? And then what are the dangers in ignoring the context to determine the meaning of the word deacon?

And again, the context and application.

I'll start on that. I'll go with your last question first. What are the dangers in ignoring the context to determine the meaning of the word deacon? And again, the context and the application itself. The dangers are drifting away from the inspiration, sufficiency and authority of the scripture itself.

I'd say that's the great danger because any time that we lean away from the text of scripture, what we're doing is leaning on our own understanding. And like Proverbs says, the wisdom of Solomon there, they not under your own understanding, but in all your ways, acknowledge the Lord, acknowledge him and he will direct your path.

That's the danger. And there's no more dangerous place to be outside of the boundaries of the text of scripture.

Does anybody wanna tackle that question or the previous one? Does context matter in determining the meaning of the use of the word? And then help us to understand the meaning of the context. It kind of works in both ways.

So when you say context, you're talking about scriptural context? I want a clarification on that or location to context or?

I would say all the above because I think there would be a consensus on how we interpret scripture, grammatical, historical. So we take all those things into consideration, but sure, we definitely start with the immediate context and the greater context of scripture.

And then we bring in the cultural and historical, geographical. So yeah, I would include all that.

I guess I'm just asking even as far as like a modern context. So you know what I'm saying? But yeah, so we're starting biblical context, right?

So that's that. Correct, correct.

I think of course the context, I think that's exactly what Tyler explained to us. You know, he gave an excellent explanation in giving that I think of context. Context is the defining portion of this.

Are we talking about a servant or are we talking about the office of the king? I think that is the defining aspect of it in biblical standards. What do you think, Dan?

Oh man, I got a lot. Yeah, I absolutely think the context matters in how you interpret stuff like this. And how you interpret stuff everywhere. But the specific passage in Timothy, there's more to it than which use of deacon is being used here.

There's some other words that are used throughout that have to guide how we understand and interpret that passage. For instance, he gets in to it in the first bit of chapter three, says it's a trustworthy statement.

If any man aspires the office of the overseer, it's a fine work that he desires to do. And it goes through and it gives you the entire qualifications for an elder. And then it says, deacons likewise, so deacons likewise, changing from one office to another, the office of deacon has to be understood the same way as office of an elder.

These are the qualifications if you're going to be a deacon. But then in verse 11, it says women likewise must be, and then it gives a qualification for women. Now I know a lot of Bible translations out there will say they're wives, but their wives is not in the Greek.

It's just the word for women. So it says women likewise. So there's a qualification here for a woman in some form or fashion to be serving or to be upheld to. And it says they must be dignified, not malicious gossips, temperate, faithful in all things.

And then he continues on talking about deacons. So there's a book in there where that thing about women is pulled up into the conversation of what it means to be a deacon. So it says that deacons must be husbands of one wife only.

I think that's just saying that a person must be a faithful spouse to their spouse. Obviously the husband ruling the house has the further qualification of managing their house well, but a wife also is supposed to be taking care of her children and managing her house under the authority of her husband.

So I think that this passage is actually giving us a qualification for women to be in the deaconate going by the context that's here.

I would say, I would argue there. I would say that the bookends themselves dictate that it's male in role rather than their wives being the deacon in the female role.

So what do you do in verse 11?

But that's what I'm saying. You talked about the bookend there. Verse 12 in verse eight, the first verse eight, likewise, deacons must be not double-toned when they're told the mystery of faith through pure conscience.

And of course, verse 11, yes, it described their wives. Their is a specific, or their is not in the Greek. The Greek is Gouna, right? Or Gouna, however it's pronounced. Yeah, Gouna. Yeah, the Greek there is Gouna, but again, when you go down to 12, it's clear that it's bringing back the hierarchy there, the hierarchical order that the Lord has set up.

Because everywhere else, the role of women is not set above or equal to the role of man. The role of women throughout the text of scripture is always, well, God first, the husband, then the wife. But there's no bringing, I'll get in trouble for this.

Y 'all just smile through this. We're not putting down women. We all agree there, amen. We're not saying men are better than women. We're equal in God's eye. However, the role of authority that the Lord has given to men in the church itself is hierarchical in order.

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, but the office of a deacon is not one that's vested with authority. It's a servant role by nature.

Right, it's like what Jonathan brought out a good point there that there's no prescriptive text for the role of deacon, right? That's what you said earlier, right, Jonathan? Wasn't that it? Which I thought was a wonderful description there.

But as far as the role goes, the bookend that you spoke about there, Dan, I would go just the opposite way as what you're going on that. I would say that the bookends clarify the context.

So what does verse 11 mean then?

It means, well, it's a woman, it's a woman. It's a woman, but it's also used just as many times in scripture as wife and wives. So at the same time, it's not a misinterpretation to say likewise their wives must also be.

And that's why I think most English translations use the word wife or wives because it's speaking of, then he goes right into the next clarification. He goes to speak about the family, the husband of one wife.

So he's saying that whole group of bringing in the word woman or wives is bracketing one who manages his household well. So in other words, a woman that is a slanderer and out of line gossip, then that man is not managing the household well.

And it's not oppressive. It's not like beating her with a wet noodle at night or whatever, that kind of stuff. But that's how I interpret that because it's as equally used all throughout scripture, wives as it is woman.

So it's interchangeable. There's gotta be a context here. And the context doesn't give any clue that you're talking about a wife because there's no parallel up above when you're talking about the elder.

But the very next person doesn't give a qualification for an elder's wife that she has to follow and she has to be found worthy in any sort of fashion. So why then would the deacon's wife have to go to a stricter standard than the elder's wife?

Can I interject an observation? I was trying to look over, Claude sent me an article by Grace to You, John MacArthur's ministry and about this. And it seems like, Claude, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like that article kind of leans toward the interpretation that Dan is giving.

But here was my observation of that article because I was trying to look at some of their arguments. And here was one of their arguments that's relevant to this discussion, I think. So you're in verse 11 and I don't know if it was MacArthur or who the author was of that article, but from Grace to You, they used the word likewise to refer back to the office.

So their conclusion was just like in verse eight, likewise is referring back to the office in a similar fashion as the pastor or overseer. And in verse 11, likewise or in similar fashion as the pastor.

But if that's the case, if that's the actual case, that there's, this is a third office, deaconess, and it's likewise is referring back to the office, then you would have to go back and rethink who can hold the office of pastor.

Could it be women then if this is, if likewise is referring to the office, because you're making that argument for deacon. My observation is when it says in verse 11, likewise, it could be, I'm not being definitive, but it could be speaking to the woman's relationship to the pastor and to the deacon, not to the office, but to the person holding the office.

And I could see that except that it is contained within discussion of deacon on both sides. In verse eight, nine, 10, then you have the discussion about women in verse 11, then you come back to deacon in verse 12.

So it's self-contained in the discussion of what it means to be a deacon. Whereas you don't have that discussion of what it would mean for a woman to be an elder, because that's not something that Paul is allowing for, because he says other places explicitly, I don't allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man.

In fact, it's on the previous page, if I'm not mistaken, depending on how big the text is or whatever. Yeah, I mean, the previous page, actually mine's right above it. Yeah, because even in verse 13, it goes on and says, for those who served well as deacons obtained for themselves a high standing.

So the whole paragraph there is speaking about deacons. I don't see a flip flop or moving back and forth. He goes from one office of elder, then he goes on to a discussion of the office of deacon, and he continues that throughout the rest of the paragraph.

And then going into the next paragraph, he just talks to Timothy. I'm writing you this things, I'm hoping to come see you and we'll be one big happy family church.

Right, I had one other observation based on arguments you were making about, it doesn't describe it as a leadership role. And it goes back to the article that I was reading earlier. It spoke of people use the Acts passage as a deacon passage.

And their estimation was that, now they, again, they lean more towards your interpretation. But they did make the observation that there were probably around, this was their estimate, 20 ,000 people there.

So how can seven men serve 20 ,000 people? And the only way that I could, as use the word Jonathan used earlier, deduce the plan there was for these seven men to have a leadership role and then disperse that, the serving, does that make sense?

It's not explicit, so I can't be dogmatic.