Powerful: Pastor Engages Returned Mormon Missionaries

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I love your videos. Oh, praise God, right on. You're a big fan. How you doing? Good, how you doing? Great to meet you. All the pro -life work you do.

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Oh, praise the Lord. Yes. I'm so glad God's using it, man. You had one posted maybe a day or two ago. Uh -huh.

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Loved it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We were at LSU. Yes. Yeah. Some of the best conversations I've seen.

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Oh, praise God. Yeah. I'm so glad God's using it in your life. I'm also a devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. Are you really?

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I do enjoy the good discussions you have, but I mean, I'm firm in my faith. I'm glad you're being blessed by the videos.

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So why are you a Latter -day Saint? Oh, because of the convictions I've had, and I know you've brought up some good points against that, but I don't think

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Joseph Smith's a liar. Why is that? The experiences I've had reading the Book of Mormon, the first vision, any of the accounts,

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I feel the Spirit of God rested upon me, convicting me that that's true and that's right.

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Okay. What would you say to the Muslim that has a similar experience?

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And that's where good conversation comes in. Very similar experience, right? But he thinks, he would disagree with you and I both.

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Right. He thinks Jesus isn't the Son of God. Sure. That he's not, he didn't die for sins. But they feel very strongly about their experience.

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Right, and that's where we kind of go to find their fruits, ye shall know them. Right. And I think the fruits that come from Joseph Smith, namely number one, the

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Book of Mormon, the other books of scripture, I think those ring true to me, as maybe the

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Quran would with a Muslim. So is it right, though, because it teaches a different God and gospel than you would believe in?

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I agree. That's where it gets tricky. I'd like to add something. Sure, sure.

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I think a big part of it is, you know, when we talk about truth, I mean, I think you and I both agree, we don't have a monopoly on truth.

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Like, I believe that there are a lot of inspired men out there where maybe they've just seen things. I mean, like,

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God's work is all around us, right? We can look and see God in everything. And they've probably observed a lot of that and had experiences, maybe, that were similar.

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Don't know exactly how they got those experiences, but they've been able to learn truth just by living in God's creation.

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Sorry, the cows are, cars are loud. I'm trying to hear you, yeah. But they've probably had experiences just living in God's creation.

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Well, yeah, I mean, you're kind of saying what Romans 1 says and other passages, that the creation itself testifies to all of us, so much so that everybody in the world, every image bearer of God is left without an excuse before God for the rejection of God and their worship of a false god.

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So, like, when you look in Africa or other places right now, tribes that worship the grass or the cow or the sky or whatever, the

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Bible says that they actually stand condemned because there's enough revelation in nature itself to leave people without any excuse for the rejection of the true

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God. So people, the real problem of, like, different gods and different religions isn't a problem of a lack of clarity from the true

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God. According to Scripture, it's that we don't want the true God, so we worship something made in His, made in our image.

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We worship the creature rather than the creator. That's what Romans 1 says. So, but you said, you said a second ago, you said we don't have a monopoly on truth.

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Well, Brigham Young and Joseph Smith believed that you did, that this was the one true church, and that a man can get closer to God by obeying the precepts of the

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Book of Mormon than any other book. That sounds like a, that sounds like a monopoly on truth, right? That this is the truth, it's the one way.

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So I think the question really is, and I want to listen to what you say to this, the question is, what is the truth?

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Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. So, He claimed to be the truth, and He taught us about who

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He was. The Scriptures tell us about Christ, about the fact that Jesus was never created, that He always existed as God in relationship with the

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Father, that He created everything in existence, including Lucifer. That's in John 1, that's in Colossians chapter 1, that Jesus of Scripture is the creator of Lucifer.

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He's not a spirit brother. And, and I, you probably heard me say this before if you've watched the videos, the challenge here with, with this conversation is that you guys are very zealous, you're obviously very passionate,

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I believe you're sincere, completely. The problem is, is that in the very first century, not long after the resurrection of Jesus, the

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Apostle Paul says in 2 Corinthians 11 that he's worried about the church in Corinth, that they'll follow another

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Christ, another gospel, or another spirit. And so, the question is, is who is

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Jesus? Because if we worship a false Christ, like I, I assume that, maybe

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I'm wrong, I don't know, we just met, but if somebody said, well I worship the Jesus of Islam, who is not the son of God, didn't die for, he didn't die for sins, right, just a prophet, a good man, good prophet, they'll say peace be upon him, they have reverence for his name, but they'll, they'll say he didn't die for sins.

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I would assume that you both would say, that's not Jesus. Yeah, correct. Right? Okay, so that, but that is a

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Christ, because they say Jesus Christ, they say they revere him, they say they believe what some of the

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New Testament says about him, but that's not a Christ they can save, because it's a false one. So, the question is, is, is the, is the

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Jesus that Joseph Smith brought to the world, is he the true Christ? Is he the truth?

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That's the question. And I, you know, you've, if you've seen the videos, you know, the, the, I'm not concerned with the side issues that would divide us.

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I mean, you mentioned the pro -life stuff, we're on the same page. Absolutely. So, it's not the side issues that I'm concerned about, I'm concerned about whether or not you have a

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Christ that can save you, whether you have a gospel that'll bring you to peace with God. Remind me why you don't think that that is for us.

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We believe our, I mean, Jesus Christ overcame physical and spiritual death to save us from those things.

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Right. We believe in his teachings. Maybe we have a disagreeance on, on some of what those are, but the main thing,

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Jesus Christ, son of God, came to save us from physical and spiritual death. Right. So.

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Where, where are we differing on that? Yeah, no, that's a good point, because there's, there's so much, if we had, if you, if we were sitting at the ice cream shop over there, and we had one minute to talk about Jesus and some, some main points about him, his resurrection, his perfection, people around us probably wouldn't know there's a, quite a difference between us.

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They would just be like, oh, these guys are singing the same song. Right. But. But I hear you bring up all the time, we believe

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Jesus and Satan are brothers and you do not. Right. And that, and that's, that's a main point of it. That gets into a minute and a half of the conversation, right?

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You start saying, well, like, what do you mean? Because like, if you talk to the Muslim on the street and you had 10 seconds, do you believe in Jesus Christ?

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He would say, yes, peace be upon him. We reverence Jesus Christ. Right. Right. He's, he's the

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Messiah, right? And so they would, you, okay, you walk away from the conversation, I guess we're on the same page.

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Yeah. Now, in 15 seconds, you realize you're not talking about the same Christ, same word, different definition. Oh, he's not the son of God.

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Oh, he didn't die for sins on the cross. He didn't rise from the dead. So in the conversation that we're having, the

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Jesus of Mormonism, the Jesus of Joseph Smith, the Jesus is the spirit offspring of heavenly father and one of his goddess wives.

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Heavenly father was once a man like us who became a God like we can become gods one day.

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He had gods before him who had gods before them. It's really, in many ways, we say an infinite regression of gods.

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It goes back and back and back and back and back. And there's gods and gods. And one of your apostles said there's more gods than there is matter.

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That's a heck of a lot of gods. And so when you think about the Jesus of Mormonism, he is the spirit offspring as are we with heavenly father and one of his goddess wives in the pre -existence.

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So that's not the Jesus of scripture. The Jesus of scripture is the I am. He is, he is, he is

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Yahweh. That's what, that's what he calls himself. That's what the writers in the new Testament call him. That's what the old Testament refers to him as, as, as the eternal

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God. The Jesus of John chapter one, just that one passage, just, just read that.

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It says that he was always in existence forever ago. In the beginning was the word.

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And it gets better in the Greek. And Arke ein halagos. The word there is for as far back as you want to go forever.

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Jesus was already there. That he was in intimate relationship with the father and that he was

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God. And it says that he created all things and that nothing came into being that's coming to being except through Jesus.

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Satan came into being. According to John one, Jesus created Satan. We believe that Satan is a fallen angel.

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That's what the Bible teaches. But not necessarily that Jesus created. I know, but John says

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Jesus did. Colossians, Colossians one. In the beginning was the word. And the word was with God.

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The word was God. Sure, but we. I'll show you the text. Let me see here real fast. Let me see this. This.

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Sure. So, I know you probably wouldn't by your standard consider us Christian.

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But by with other people's other Christian or other

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Christian brothers definition of maybe the Trinity. Would you consider them Christian as well?

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Seeing that they might believe God one in three, three in one. Well, we believe in the

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Trinity. Right. Okay. And so I'll give you. Anybody with a different. Here's a good. Here's a good example.

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This guy right here. One of my best friends. Brother in the Lord. He's Presbyterian.

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Cool. Okay. I'm a Reformed Baptist. Right. You. We are exactly in line on every essential of the

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Christian faith. Who God is. The word of God. How a person is reconciled to God. We have disagreements over side issues like motive baptism.

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And whether you whether you baptize an infinite of a believing person. Because you believe

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God establishes a covenant with the family. Sure. But he doesn't believe that that water baptism saves the baby.

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He believes that that baby that child has to have faith in Christ. To be justified before God.

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How is that? How is that different from us? You and I believe. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Son of God. Resurrected on the third day.

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Lucifer's brother. One God among many gods. Well, I mean, side issue. Not a side issue.

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It's a core issue. It's his identity. That's his identity. I mean, Paul even teaches that there's multiple gods. Right. No.

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There's only one God that we worship. Well, in that text in First Corinthians chapter eight, you're referring to. I know it's a popular.

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I know it's a popular text that you're taught in seminary. I actually read that recently. Oh, yeah. But OK. Maybe.

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But in seminary, they do have that in the lessons. They teach it to missionaries. If a

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Christian says there's only one God, none before, none after, as the scriptures say, you can say Psalm 82 and First Corinthians eight.

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And if you look at those passages, you'll see the apostle Paul wasn't saying in any way that there's many gods. He actually completely flatly denies that.

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He's talking about idols. That there are people who sacrifice meat to idols. And he said there are many gods like many, many of these idols.

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He said, but there's only one God. These are false gods. So he didn't say in any way that there were many gods.

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He's actually taught. He's remarking on the fact that there are many idols, many false gods in the world. But there's only one true

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God. When you ask the question about identity, this is a key issue in the beginning.

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And you probably know this text. It's probably one of those famous in the New Testament. Yeah. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was

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God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him. That's Jesus. And without him was not anything made that was made.

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And then it says down here, it says, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. So God, the creator of all things, became flesh and dwelt among us.

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But it says here that Jesus created everything. And there isn't anything that's come into existence except through Jesus.

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You can't believe in the Mormon God and believe that. Why not? Because...

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We believe that Jesus Christ, along with our Heavenly Father, helped organize this earth and many other earths, right?

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Except you don't believe that Heavenly Father, Elohim, that he's the creator of everything that was made.

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Well, we believe that Jesus Christ and, I mean, many of our general authorities have said that Michael or Adam were part of the creation process, under the direction and power of the

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Father. But even Elohim, and even Elohim in your system, is not the creator of everything that's been made.

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What is everything? Everything, not... And without him was not anything made that was made.

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Sure, I think... It's a different God. Relative to our mortal understanding.

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That's kind of how I interpret that scripture. But one thing, just to challenge you on that.

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You had to add all those words to that text. You can't... See, Mormonism doesn't allow you to let the text speak.

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To let God speak. Sure, I mean... The way I think through that in my mind is what was revealed up to that point.

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You know, if we're getting these, you know, God progressing or any of those beliefs didn't come until,

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I mean, Joseph Smith, really. Right, well actually, Joseph Smith didn't believe it early on. Right, and Joseph Smith, I mean,

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John Taylor made it clear in his famous quotation. And so before then, I think God, I mean, revealed these things, and this is what they need, this is relative, this is what's important to them.

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Would God contradict himself, though? Because I get your point. I'm glad you're saying that, that's good. That's good common ground.

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Because before Joseph Smith came along, you have 2 ,000 years of Christian history. But before that, you've got all of God's Old Testament revelation, right?

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And God's Old Testament revelation, over and over and over and in abundance, says there is only one

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God. Isaiah 43 .10 says, Now on that one text alone, all of Joseph Smith's revelation falls.

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Right. None before him, none after him. How I'd answer that, and I don't know how you answered that on our missions, but the way

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I said that was, in Isaiah, I'm pretty sure he's preaching, in 44, the next chapter,

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I think he brings up idol worship. I think he's talking to a people who struggles with that. No, you're actually, that's very good.

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But what he's doing is he's responding to the worship of false gods, and he's saying,

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And you can, back to what I was saying before, I see that as God's being, he's just putting it in a box.

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I'm the only one you worship. He didn't say that, though. But that's kind of. He said he doesn't even know.

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But that doesn't make sense to me. He says, but yeah, but you notice, though, because of Joseph's revelation, you have to do that. It's not because of the

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Word of God. Joseph taught you something, and he says, Now, that's kind of how

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I approach everything, is like, okay, if I start with Joseph Smith, if Joseph Smith's right, then the Book of Mormon's right. If the Book of Mormon's right, then everything else is right.

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And then I can put the pieces together from there. Okay, so, that's very good. Now, where I see most of Christianity is they have a lot of awesome pieces of the puzzle.

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Some of them are twisted. Some of them are put together just right. Some of them not so much. Some of them are missing. Some are over here.

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Some are over there. When I have Joseph Smith with his revelations, with everything he's brought forth more than any other person, man,

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I feel like I see the picture way more clearly than any of my others. Even when Joseph contradicts what

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God's previous revelation was? Which one? Which one are you talking about? Isaiah 43 .10?

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Well, there's 43 .10, but it keeps going, though, because Isaiah 44 .6, he says further,

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I'm the first and I'm the last. Joseph didn't believe that. And he says, I don't even know of any other gods.

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Isaiah 44 .8. And Joseph didn't believe that either. Yeah, I think he's... Was he telling the truth is the question?

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Yes, I think he's just saying, look, it's just me. So there are no other gods? It's not any of these little idols. He said he didn't know of any. Well, and I think...

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But Joseph's revelation doesn't allow you to believe that. He's just revealing to their understanding. That's how I'm taking it. Right, so he didn't mean it. Well, he meant it, but just...

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I mean, of course, you teach your children different things about different subjects. But you don't contradict yourself, though.

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I don't think there's a contradiction. I just think it was less of the picture. So he says, I'm the first and I'm the last.

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Was that true? Yeah, I believe so. But he wasn't the first god, according to Joseph, and he won't be the last.

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According to our... What do you think he means by the first and the last? He says... Yeah, he says...

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And I would just encourage you, he's right. He's exactly right. In Isaiah 40 through 46 chapters, it's like the showdown between the true

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God, the living God, versus all the idols men make. And he takes pains to say, there were no gods formed before me, and neither shall there be after me.

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And he says, I'm the first and I'm the last. Besides me, there is no god. And he says, is there another god besides me?

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Indeed, there is no other god. I know not one. And then he even goes further to say that he says, have your gods tell you the future.

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Go ahead. Right, he's referring to the other ones, not any before... No, but he says, speaking of idols, he goes further than saying he's just the only one.

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He says, your gods can't tell you the future because they're not sovereign over it. Like Joseph Smith, he gave many false prophecies.

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And one of the tests of a prophet in Scripture is if you have even one single false prophecy, you're a false prophet.

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So, now, to be fair, this is not something I'm throwing on your lap saying, ha, try it. Be fair.

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This text says, if you have even one false prophecy, you are not from the true God because only the true

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God can tell you the future and get it right every single time because he's sovereign over it. That means that if there's a single false prophecy in this entire revelation, it's not from God, by God's own standard.

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So that's an amazing thing to think about. This claim is that you can't have a single false prophecy. Joseph had many.

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Brigham Young had false prophecies. There is a whole history of false prophecy in the

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Latter -day Saints' leadership in the last, you know, 150 years. We can keep going and going and going.

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I mean, they taught that Jesus Christ was coming back in that generation before they all died. How we interpret these prophecies and if they haven't yet been revealed yet, that's a whole other conversation.

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Well, this one says even 56 years from 1835 it was going to happen. That's Joseph Smith. And he said that this was made known to him by the

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Holy Spirit of God. Right. And I know that's a common... You brought it up before a few times. I think you brought it up the other day. That's one

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I haven't looked into. I'd be happy to give you the resources. Do it.

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Yeah, yeah. Because it's huge, right?

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Sure. But he's not the first.

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And he's not the last. He's my first. He's like, I'm your dad. Except God didn't say that, though. He said, I'm the first.

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I'm the last. Besides me, there is no God. Sure. If your dad... Let's take your analogy.

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Let's take your analogy. Okay. If your dad said, I'm the first dad and the last dad and there is no other dad out there.

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To me. No, no. There is no other dad out there. You would say, not true.

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You're not the first, not the last. You're not the only dad that exists. But he's speaking to me. But you notice what you have to do to the text.

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You have to constantly, because of Joseph. It's not your fault. Because of Joseph and his revelation, you have to go to the text of God's word, see it speaking plainly hundreds of times, and say, how do

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I get around that? I don't feel like that's that far off, though. I mean,

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I feel like my train of thought makes sense. So does Elohim know... When I learned this teaching, I was like...

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Does Elohim know of any other gods? I'm certain... I mean, I don't know.

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What about his dad? I'm sure they have some form of association. That's my guess. So he does know.

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Yeah, I would say so. And if any other people have become gods since, he knows about them, too, if they were his spirit offspring, right?

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If they've gone to exaltation. The God of the Bible says he doesn't know of any other gods. Right. Again, just relative to us, inside our bodies.

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See what you had to do? Add those words. Yeah, I mean, it's complicated. It's tough. It's not complicated.

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I have love for you as a fellow human being. So don't take this with any kind of insult.

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Take it just with love and passion for you as men. For sure. That is just an excuse.

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You can't, because of what Joseph's Revelation says, you can't just let God speak. Now, here's what I'm going to say.

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In one sense, you, gentlemen, need to turn to the true Christ and receive the gift of eternal life to know the true

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God. That's what I want for you. In another sense, you don't have to take responsibility for Joseph Smith's teachings.

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What I mean by that is if I say, hey, Joseph said this, and it's not consistent, the better thing to do would be to say, let me test that.

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Let me see if it's true. Because Joseph did come about 2 ,000 years into church history and say, hey, the entire church is wrong.

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They're all corrupt. All their creeds are an abomination. Follow me. So it would be right for us to say, you know,

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Jesus says that his kingdom would never pass away, and that he'd build his church, and the gates of hell would never prevail against it.

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And then it was the faith delivered once for all, once for all. So let me test what

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Joseph Smith's saying. He's claiming that the church fell away. The New Testament clearly says, Old Testament clearly says, it would never happen, can't happen.

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That's what the Old Testament clearly says. It's a kingdom that would never pass away, never be destroyed. Jesus said he would build his church, the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

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Joseph believed they did. And Jude says it's the faith delivered once for all to the saints, once for all.

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So we have a right as Christians to look at Joseph Smith in the 19th century and say, you're claiming a lot of things here that contradict

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God's previous revelation, and you're claiming to be sent from the same God.

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That's a challenge. I'm from this God. Sure. But I'm going to contradict everything he says about himself, about salvation, about his word.

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I would say we need to go to those texts and see, do those prophesy an apostasy, a full apostasy of the church?

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From Amos? Yeah. And when was that written?

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Thousands of years ago. To who? See, context is everything, right? You brought up a fine point when you said, well, doesn't

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Paul talk about many gods? All you do is go to the text and say, what was he talking about?

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And to be fair, that standard has to be applied to me, too. I don't get just to pull rank on Scripture and say,

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I really like this tradition. I'm going to make it work. I'm going to just confess this to you.

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I wasn't raised in a Christian home. And so when I first got involved, made a profession of faith, came to church,

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Christian church was all new to me. And I had Bible teachers teach me things that I bit down on and said, great, okay,

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I'll believe you. You're a pastor. You're a teacher. Got it. And that became like, that's my,

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I believe that. And it was after like years later, after studying the Scriptures, realizing that's not actually biblical.

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And I had to go through correction to say, as much as I like this tradition and I respect my pastor, man loved

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God, he was wrong. And I can't go on perpetuating that falsehood just because I like the guy.

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I need to say, no, what does God say? And go ahead. I just have a question. In all these conversations,

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I've had lots of these. I served in Tennessee. Where in Tennessee? Knoxville. Knoxville, right on. I've been there.

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Yeah, it's a great place. Yeah. But when I was there, I just, you know, we get in these conversations like this and I just always walk away like, so, you know, if I'm wrong, then what?

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Like what would be your call to action? That's the most important question. Right. Because I feel like that is important.

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That's the most important question. Like because I walk away with it and, you know, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you want me to accept

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Christ, the Lord and Savior, and, you know, accept him and, you know, start serving him. I feel like I'm already doing that.

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I feel like I've already accepted Christ. You know, Christ is my Savior. I love him. He died for my sins. And I believe that through his blood

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I can be cleansed of sin. And through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Right. And by grace, after all, you can do.

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So it's not just him. It's also your own effort and… It is, I think. Uh -huh.

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That's awesome. Take the sacrament and do a testimony.

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I've been doing it for a long, good testimony.

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And I like to do that. Okay. Well, we were talking about some important things related to that.

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If you want to sort of hang out and listen to the conversation, that's what we're talking about. Or if you're taking off, just take a look at this.

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You'll see why we're here. I'll put it right there so you can have that. So hop back into what we were saying. Yes. So what he was asking, what do we do if we find fault?

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In fact, we just accept Christ, but our tweaked version of Christ, the one where… Well, it's more than that. It's much more.

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It's so much more. And that's the most important question. Like, are we out here just to debate?

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Debate over side issues? Like, is it just for someone to win an argument? I can promise you this. Sure. I'm not here to win an argument.

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I'm here for you. And that's the wonderful thing I love about these conversations is that it's not…

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You know, I hope we walk away from this. I'm going to take what you said. I'm going to consider it. I'm going to ponder on it. I'm going to pray about it. I'm going to read into the

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Word. And I'm really going to put a lot of thought into it. Good. But I just… I think, like, you know, if we're looking at it this way, you know,

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Christ, He is our Savior. But, okay, now, again, just stepping out of ourselves and our disagreement for a moment.

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If the two of us were hanging out, getting dinner or something like that, and we pass by a mosque. Are there mosques here in Provo?

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Is there a mosque? I haven't seen one in Provo. I've seen a few other areas. If we pass by a mosque and a guy walks up to us, he's

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Muslim, and he says, well, I believe in Christ, too. Peace be upon him. I think you and I would have something else to say to him.

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Like, well, not really. Like, we've got to go past the word I believe in Jesus. He's my

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Savior. And ask, like, well, who is He? What has He accomplished? Because Paul's point in 2

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Corinthians 11 was that if you have a false Christ, you have a Christ that can't save you. So, you know, like, if I say to him, this is

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Jesus Christ, and I bow down and worship Him, hopefully you'd stop me and say, no. You can call Him Jesus all you want.

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He's not going to save you from your sins. And so if the God that Joseph Smith gave to the world is not the true

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God, if there actually only is one true and living God and none before Him, none after Him, and if Christ is eternally existent as God, and if He says that He's the only way to salvation and it's only through faith in Him, He says, repent and believe the gospel.

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That's the call of the scriptures. Then you must be joined to that Savior. You have to be united to Him.

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And then you ask the question, like, so what now? Like, okay, there are no other gods. You can't become one one day.

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So what's my hope? And this is a fundamental issue. It's not a matter of just simply switching, going, great, so I'll trust in that Jesus, and then what?

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I'll say I believe Him. The Bible says that the only way that any human being can be reconciled to God is through faith in Christ.

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I know that you believe that, right? But which Jesus is the question. But the question is, okay, what happens?

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How is a person reconciled to God? Like, how does a holy God that we've offended, we deserve

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His judgment. We don't deserve His grace. Those are two different things. Judgment is one thing. Grace is a gift.

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It's unmerited favor. How do I have a relationship of peace with God when my whole life is guilty, when my whole life is foul?

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It says there is none righteous, not even one. None who seeks for God. We've all violated His law, and we only deserve judgment.

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That's it. We just deserve to be judged because God is so holy and so righteous. That's why Jesus came to save sinners.

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But how does a holy God look at you and say, I declare you righteous. We have peace.

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Now you're reconciled. Now you have eternal life. The Bible says it's through the righteousness of Christ and through Him alone.

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He lived a life of perfection and sinlessness, and He takes the death that we deserve, and He conquers that death by rising from the dead.

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And when you turn from sin to trust in Christ, you are united to Him, and you are credited His righteousness in full, and God does not count your sins against you ever.

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You have peace with God today. It's not a ceasefire between you and God. It's peace, eternal peace, eternal life.

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That is the difference. Because just as a comparison, in the

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Latter -day Saint view of salvation, salvation is not something where God gives you the righteousness of Christ to hide in.

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It's His perfect life credited to you so that God sees you as blameless and righteous because of Christ's righteousness, not your own.

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In the Latter -day Saint view of salvation, it's a progressive view, right?

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Like based upon my obedience, my righteousness, my cooperation, my obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, my obedience to God's law, my going to temple, my tithing, whatever the case may be.

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But somehow, my righteousness needs to be good enough so that God can accept me fully, and whether or not

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I have enough righteousness depends on how high up the kingdom I go. I'll give you the summary, and I'll shut up.

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The gospel, the good news, is that you get God. You're reconciled to God.

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Like that's the glory of the message is that you have peace with God. It's not a matter of progression to becoming a god one day, or the good news of the gospel is really about the fact that you get

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God, you're reconciled to God. God made you in His image for His glory to enjoy

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Him forever and to worship Him forever. And we go from a place of rebellion and estrangement from God, where we only deserve

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His judgment and justice, to now we have peace with God. I can say to you right now with full confidence, not because I deserve it,

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I have peace with God. I have eternal life. I'm not waiting to get it. I'm not hoping to get it.

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I have it because of Christ and because of His righteousness. I have no boast. I have nothing to deserve it.

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I've done nothing to earn this. It is solely because of His work, and I've turned from sin to trust in Him and Him alone in what

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He did. I'm right with God because of His righteousness. I'm right with God because He paid for my sin in full.

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Here's the thing. It is finished. That's what Jesus said. Transaction's complete.

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It's over. There's nothing left to deal with. My sins have been conquered at the cross. And what

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Joseph gave us was he gave us a God who cannot save, and he gave us a message of the gospel that robs the gospel of its goodness and peace, where it's still based upon your striving, your working, your obedience.

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So I would like to kind of correct that because I don't feel like that's entirely what we teach. We teach that it is because of the grace of Jesus Christ that we are saved.

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After all you can do. That's not quite it. 2 Nephi 25 -23. That is in 2 Nephi, but just to go, like, so Christ died for us.

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His grace saves us. We can't earn that grace. All of the things that we do are really for us.

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It's to apply the grace of Jesus Christ so that we can better ourselves. We get baptized for the remission of sins.

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However, that doesn't keep sins off of us. We have to continually work towards... There. You just reiterated what

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I said. Just like Peter says in Acts 2, right? When they say we believe in Jesus Christ, it says repent and be baptized.

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I believe that same call goes for us, right? It's not just enough to say we believe in Jesus Christ. But you just said that when you believe in Jesus Christ and you're baptized, that it's not enough.

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Now that life of obedience and everything else has something to do with whether or not you're reconciled to God on a day -to -day basis.

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Can I jump in really quick? Yeah, but just... I mean, I know the Scripture well. Yeah, 25 -23.

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By grace you've been saved. After all, you can do. So it's not just the grace of Christ. My understanding is that heaven is less of a place and more of who we become.

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Jesus Christ has provided us the tools to become complete. Which complete means being a

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God. Sure, being perfect, right? Whatever that is. Being a God. All fullness and glory, right? And it's impossible without Jesus Christ.

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It's not even a thought. But Jesus didn't teach that message. His message was a message of salvation and reconciliation with God.

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It wasn't about where you will ascend to become a God one day yourself and have polygamous relationships with other women like Heavenly Father did, to populate an earth just like this.

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That is not what Christ's message was. It was about peace with God. It was about God is the

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Creator. He is holy. We are sinners. We deserve hell. There is a real place of judgment

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Jesus taught. He said, don't fear the one who has power to kill the body, but fear the one who has power to throw both body and soul into hell.

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He taught that. There is a real judgment. And His message was not a message of exaltation to becoming a

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God one day. His message was so good because it was about the God we've offended has provided a way to have peace with Him.

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He is the center of the gospel. Would you like me to address that scripture? Which one?

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2 Nephi. By grace you saved after all you can do. So I believe that when we are putting forth our best efforts,

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God will give us more strength and power to continue forward. Right. To handle the struggles and the challenges of our lives today.

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And that would be consistent with 2 Nephi 25 -23. We believe that if you ask us if we are saved, going into different definitions,

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I believe that I am saved from death. Jesus Christ paid for that. The check has been cashed.

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We are set. It is up to me to save myself from sin. It is up to me to step out of the pool and Jesus Christ has the towel ready to dry me off from sin.

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He can stand outside and ask me to come out all day long, but it is up to me to step away from sin.

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Now the problem I have with my Christian friends is that they can say they believe in Jesus, but are they acting that way?

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Totally agree with you. But that gets back to the verse that... Or even death, bed, repentance, what have they become?

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You mean like the thief on the cross? Sure, yeah. He was saved. So there are death, bed, confessions.

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That thief will still have to go through a process to become... You only believe that because Joseph taught you that though.

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But really important, the modern evangelicals that you're talking to do not represent biblical faith or historic

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Christian orthodoxy. So when you hear the message, just know I repudiated as much as you, and so does scripture.

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When you hear the message of a person on the street, the average evangelical today who goes to the megachurches, the rock concert, this isn't their authority.

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It's not. And we confront that message as much as I would confront the false message anywhere else. Just so you understand, we repudiate that as much as you do.

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The person that says, hey, I said I believe those things about Jesus. I can live however I want. That gets back to the verse that is in conflict.

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2 Nephi 25 -23 says, by grace you've been saved after all you can do. So first do the work, then you get the grace.

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We're putting forth our best efforts. God will give us additional strength not on our own. And you said that. So it's

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I do, and then God's grace. But that's not having to do with our overarching salvation.

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But ready? The reason that's such a challenge is because Joseph was actually there quoting from the

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Bible, and then he twisted the message. Ephesians 2 8 -10 says, by grace you've been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

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It is the gift of God, not according to works, lest any man should boast. But here's the next part.

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Not only does that fundamentally deny what Joseph gave in the Book of Mormon, but it also gets to the point that you're making that's very good.

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It says, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which

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God has already prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. So Scripture says, you are saved solely by grace through faith.

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It is nothing in yourself. It is all the gift of God. It is all to the glory of God. And it says that God has done this, and you are his workmanship created unto good works.

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So he saves us as a gift, and then he uses his power and glory to make us into vessels that look like him.

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So if somebody says, oh, somebody, no, no, it's completely different. Because our works have literally nothing to do with our salvation.

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Not to any degree. How do you respond to James? I'll get to that.

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So not to any degree. And we don't have to keep going forever. No, no, no, no, it's fine. I'm here for you guys.

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I'm here for you guys. But the key thing is, is that if somebody says today, I believe in Jesus, but I'm going to continue a life of sin, and I don't care, because I'm saved.

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That is as much a perversion of the gospel as what I think Joseph Smith gave to the world. Because he saves people, and then he indwells them.

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And the good works that they do come from a new heart and a new nature.

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But that new nature exists because they are saved. They're already reconciled to God. And your question about James 2.

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James 2 and Romans chapter 3, Paul and James are not at war with each other. In Romans 3, it says, 328, it says, we believe we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

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And then it says that God justifies the ungodly through faith. He counts them righteous apart from any works.

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There's a difference between Latter -day Saint view and Scripture there. He credits to them righteousness apart from any works.

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And it says that he will not count their sins against them. So the believer, because you asked the question, what's the big difference?

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The person who believes the gospel of Scripture knows that I have a righteousness credited to me apart from any works.

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And God will not count my sins against me. That's Romans 4. If you just read Romans 3 and 4, you'll see exactly what

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I'm saying. Then you move to James. And you go, what's James talking about in James 2?

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Well, if you read James 2, starting verse 10, he says, he says, people often will proof text

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James 2. And they'll see, faith without works is dead. Which by the way, we absolutely believe and agree with.

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And that would also go to the person over there that says, I believe in Jesus. Nothing has to happen. Right?

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Faith without works is dead. It's a dead faith. It means it's not real. It's not faith. It's dead.

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It's not even living. That's James' point. But he says before he says that, he says, whosoever shall keep the whole law and stumble in one point is guilty of all of it.

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So if we're going to use James to teach that somehow our works and obedience has something to do with peace with God, if we're saying that that's what

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James is saying, I may ask you a question. How well have you done today in obeying the law of God? Did you do it perfectly?

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Me too. Me too. And none of us have loved God or a neighbor perfectly today. No way. Well, James says if you stumble in one point, you're guilty of the whole thing.

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That means every single day, we are all guilty of violating the law of God.

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Right? And as a unit. Right? But James then goes on to actually, he's talking about the person that you're talking about.

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To challenge the person who says they have faith, James says that. He says, who says they have faith, but they have no works.

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He says, can that kind of faith save them? And the answer? No, that's a false faith.

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It's dead. And so James goes on to say, how do you know that someone's faith is real?

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It's alive by what they do. That's the point of faith, our works is dead. It's not faith plus works justifies you.

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It's how do you know? James's question has nothing to do with whether a person is reconciled to God through faith or faith plus works.

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His question is just simply this. How do you and I know someone actually has a real faith? By what they do.

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And that is consistent with what Jesus taught, what Paul taught. But the question for us is this.

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What does the Bible say about how a person is reconciled to God? And it says it's faith apart from any work of law.

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It's faith alone. You and I come to God as sinners with an empty hand. We've got nothing.

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We have nothing to offer. We have nothing to boast in. We have no righteousness. It's coming to Christ as a beggar, as a person who's only receiving and trusting in Jesus.

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That's the gospel message. And so, you know, you'll hear me, you may have heard me say this a lot.

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Um, my, my, it's okay. I'll just say this to you. My, my very favorite community in the world to minister to.

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I'll be honest, some of my very favorite people in the world are Latter -day Saints. And I'm not just saying that to you.

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Yeah, I mean that with my whole heart. I'll be honest with you. I'll be straight. There are some

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Latter -day Saints that I would rather hang out with and have dinner with than some people who profess faith in Christ. I mean that.

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So, so why, why do this? And for me, it's because of my passion for your community that you, you have a

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God that cannot save you. And Joseph Smith robbed you of the hope of the gospel. Peace with God.

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Peace with God. That's my hope. I'd have to disagree with you. However, we got to get running, but you have a strong faith in Christ.