Scott Brown - Complete Discussion

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Welcome to the Whole Council Podcast. I'm Jon Snyder, and this week we have a special treat for you. We want to introduce you to a man and a ministry and a book that you may not be familiar with.

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Many of you will be, Scott Brown with Church and Family Life Ministries. And Scott has recently published a book, and it's one that I've read and recommend.

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And I think that it could be one that, especially in this new year, one that might be really fruitful.

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It's a simple, clear statement about the family and the

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Christian view of the Sabbath and what the Puritans called the market day of the soul.

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And how, as parents, can we help our children to see that? How can we remind ourselves? Some just very simple, practical things.

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So, good to have you with us, Scott. Thank you, Jon. It's always a pleasure to see you. So, just give us a quick intro to where you're pastoring and the ministry there.

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Yeah, I'm a local church pastor in Wake Forest, North Carolina. Hope Baptist Church, been doing that for about 20 years.

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And I also lead a ministry called Church and Family Life. And our mission is to proclaim the sufficiency of Scripture for church and family life.

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And so that's what we do. So, the book we're looking at today is

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The Family at Church. How Parents Are Tour Guides for Joy.

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20 Days to Transform Your Local Church Experience. So, let me just throw you a few questions.

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And that might be the best way for us to introduce the book to the folks. What caused you to take time from a busy schedule to write on this particular topic?

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Hey, the church is the most important place you ever take your family. When you think about the magnitude of the purpose of the church, to declare the glory of God, to disciple the nations, to evangelize.

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You know, all the things that the church does. The church is the central matter. It's the central institution on the planet.

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So, it's so critical. And I wanted to help families, you know, squeeze the greatest amount of good out of their local church life.

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Whatever it might be. I'm not here to solve all the problems of your local church life. But, I wanted to identify opportunities.

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I wanted to see how rich it could be. I wanted families to see how sweet it could be.

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I wanted them to understand they're in a really pivotal time in their life. And they should maximize the value of the local church, which is a treasure in the world.

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Yeah, I think it was about a year ago that I was with you there at your church. And I was quite shocked.

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Because our friendship began about seven years ago. And so, we had already planted the two churches and been part of that.

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And had not met each other. But when I was there, I was shocked by two things.

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One is how amazingly similar your approach there to worship is to our approach here.

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And, you know, I don't often find that. So, that was really encouraging. And also,

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I would say, what a happy group of people that is. So, when we talk about being careful with gathering to worship the

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Lord on the Lord's Day. We certainly want to make it clear. And I think, you know, what you just said does.

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But from my own experience there, I would echo that. That it is a very happy thing to take that opportunity seriously.

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And to make the most of this gift from the Lord. You call it a family field guide to the local church.

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Why that title? Well, because I think parents are supposed to be tour guides for their families in local church life.

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And I really want to encourage parents to understand the opportunity that they have.

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It's a field guide because there are lots of things that you do in the field. You know, local church life is really rich.

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There's a lot of things going on. You know, we could talk about the ordinary means of grace.

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We could talk about the relationships. We could talk about the preaching relating to the preacher. We could talk about the fellowship.

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There are just so many things going on. I wanted parents to understand they are like tour guides.

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Here's the deal. You're either a lousy tour guide or a really good tour guide. You know, everybody knows that.

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You've probably experienced some not so great tour guides.

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Parents should be. They should seek and practice to be great tour guides. So if you were to say the target audience, while this applies to quite a few different groups, what's really the target audience?

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Would you say parents? Yeah, young parents, young families. But not just your parents because I have a lot in this book to talk to children about how to operate in the church too.

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But my main motivation for writing this book is I want to come alongside young families.

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I want to get them when their kids are little. I want to get them when they're early on the curve so that they can really max out the opportunity that's there.

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And healthier children love the church. So I really targeted this to young families.

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That's why the chapters are short. You can read them in 12 or 15 minutes. What I wanted to do is to have a book where a husband and wife could sit down maybe in the evening while the kids are in bed, read this thing together out loud for about 12 or 15 minutes, and do that for 20 days.

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There are 20 chapters. But I really so desire young families to get off on a really good start in their local church.

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I want their children to be so happy to be part of a local church and to see all the great things that go on there.

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One of the things that you mention in the book is that a family coming together with other believers at church, that it ought to be a celebratory thing.

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So there's gravity. There's seriousness. We're dealing with eternal issues. And of course sometimes when we look at the

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Psalms, it's appropriate that when we walk into the presence of the Lord together, there's a brokenheartedness at times.

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But that's not where He leaves us. That is to bring us again to the cross where there is such a sense of perfection in our

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King, that we are free as children of a perfect Father, subjects of a perfect King, to be happy.

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No matter what's happening in the ups and downs of my personal life or in the national life.

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I remember reading Hudson Taylor's two -volume biography, where he mentions how his parents went the extra mile to make

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Sunday the most special day of the week. They weren't wealthy, so a dessert at a meal was pretty rare.

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But on Sunday, there was always a dessert. Dad was very busy during the week. Six days a week he works.

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Sunday, he would give special time in the afternoon between the worship services to just spend time with the family.

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He would take Hudson Taylor for a walk in the woods, and they would talk trees and botany and things that his son was interested in.

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Doing things that showed the children in practical ways, that they could never forget, that this was a special day.

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What do you think of, what do you mean when you talk about it ought to be a day of celebration?

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Well, because there are so many things to celebrate. First of all, you're celebrating the

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King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, the God who created you. You're coming into the presence of the

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God who made you, who loves you, who knows your frame. You're coming together with people made in the image of God.

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Every person you look at has been made in God's image. They're very special, and they're different.

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They're all kinds of different people. Big people, little people, smart people, dumb people, foolish people.

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Everybody's there. I think that there's so much to relish in.

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Also, people are in different moments in their life. Some are like on a rocket ship of joy.

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Others are despondent, something really bad's happened. Or maybe because of their experience in life, they've had a hard life.

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But you have all those different kinds of people, and so that's life, right? That's real life.

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In the church, you celebrate real life with real people, with real joys, real problems, and hopefully you get to know them, or at least many of them.

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So there's a lot to celebrate. We could talk about the celebration of the gift of preaching, right?

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We could talk about the celebration of all the different things that you do in the church. Yeah, it certainly is, especially,

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I think, as we see social media through electronics become a larger part of people's lives.

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There are things that social media lacks that are not just good things, but are essential things in the

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Christian life. You've just mentioned many of them. Real contact with real people in all the different stages of life.

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It doesn't require much sanctification to give a thumbs up or to like an

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Instagram thing, or to say to someone, great job, you're my hero.

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But to walk alongside another believer when they're not so impressive, or for them to love you when you're on the verge of despair, or maybe you're proud and you don't even see it, but other believers see it, and they lovingly call you aside and say, hey man, guard that.

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Why drift? Those things are so valuable and are not found in other ways of connecting.

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Oh, let me take it another step. There's nothing in this culture like the experience in a local church.

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The relational depth, the diversity. You actually have responsibility. It's not like watching a movie. It's not like going to a concert.

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You're not just a passive person who's watching.

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You're interacting. You're interacting with everything. But really, there is nothing in this culture like a local church that has this rich diversity of experiences and feelings and responsibilities.

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I mean, it's an intellectual experience. It's a relational experience. It's interactive with God and people, this whole idea of fellowship.

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I mean, our gathering together is not like the Lions Club. I mean, there's a spiritual connection between the person and God and all of us together.

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So I just want to say there's nothing in the world like a local church.

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Yeah. Yeah, really there isn't. You mentioned the dynamic of the vertical, that we're not just connecting with others, but it is in light of the reality of a

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God before whom we live. And that does drive it to depths that no other community on planet

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Earth deals with each other on those depths. You know, I remember talking to people and saying, you know, the church should be like a pub, you know, where you're sitting there and relating.

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No. No, the church is a hundred times richer than a pub. Yeah. Well, you know, in your book, you do talk a lot to the young parent, but it's for the benefit of the child.

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And we do live in a day where if people are making the effort to show up on a

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Sunday and gather with other believers, and they're not just, you know, reading books or watching sermons on the

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Internet, but to take it the next step and to have your children really involved in a meaningful way, that can be a pretty rare thing.

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We have children in our prayer meeting. You know, we have children in the preaching. So I know that you do that as well.

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So one thing I want to ask you is, you know, there are difficulties that are added to the normal difficulties of an adult individual being willing to be transparent, to be connected with other people, to care enough about other people, and then to do all of that before the face of this holy

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God and this glorious Savior. And then you add children climbing on you or, you know, running around or, you know, in the morning as you're packing into the car.

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The stressful situation of getting everybody someplace on time and arriving with a heart that is restful, you know.

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So what are some of the difficulties that you see for parents and, you know, and the cures for that?

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One of the greatest problems that causes the difficulties is lack of anticipation, lack of preparation, lack of seeing the moment, communicating the meaning of the moment, communicating sort of the behavior that's best in the moment.

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You know, how to, I think where parents mostly neglect is in the preparation part.

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They just show up. They just jump in the car and show up, right? So in this book,

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I'm advocating that parents, they prepare themselves, excuse me, and they prepare their children, and they talk about what's going on before the moment.

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And they even anticipate what that preacher is going to preach about.

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Parents are prepping them. They're getting them ready so that when they come in to hear it, they'll hear it almost kind of like a second time, and then they'll review it afterwards.

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I think that thoughtful preparation and anticipation is the most helpful thing.

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But the truth is, these are children. Children, they're children.

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And God, I mean, God designed it that way. He actually designed a local church experience to be with children who are, you know, if they're really young, they might cry.

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They might act up, and parents have to rise up and teach their children how to behave, you know, how to focus on the preacher, how to be kind to their sister sitting next to them, you know, how not to grab the communion tray when it's coming by and threaten the entire deal, you know?

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So I think that, you know, children need preparation. They need instruction.

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You have two chapters in the book on the issue of singing.

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Why is that so important that you devoted two chapters to it? Well, I wanted to say two things.

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I wanted to say, here's what the Bible says singing is, because there's this idea that people often have that singing is very individualistic.

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But the Bible makes singing a very rich experience. You're instructing one another in Christian singing.

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You're not just singing to the Lord. You're actually instructing and you're admonishing with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

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So singing is really active. So on the one hand, I try to go to some length to explain what singing really is and just how rich and beautiful it is.

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And then just some ways to help your children sing, because all children don't want to sing.

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And I think parents have to kind of shepherd their children out of the I'm just going to stand there like a bump on the log.

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Because God gave us this physical being in which our whole physical being is activated to give thanks, to worship, to encourage the brethren, to sing the songs in the voice that they are sung.

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Some songs are actually directed to one another. A mighty fortress is our

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God. Like we're all saying this. Some are more on the line of admonition.

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Some are helpful intellectual exercises about the doctrine of God.

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Proclaiming something. So the church is comforting one another.

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So I wanted parents to understand sort of the richness of the depth of the singing experience the way the

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Bible explains it, and to fully engage their children in it so that they're lifting up their voices.

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And here's the reality. Those songs will come back and strengthen them.

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Even if they're not believers. If those children are not believers, don't worry about it. Help them sing the songs.

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When God puts his hand on their head, perhaps later in life, those songs will come back, and they will be so sweet.

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They sang them kind of deadpan when they were 12. But when they're converted, those songs are going to light up.

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So I encourage parents to teach their children the songs so that if they're not converted during that time, those songs will be so meaningful, so sweet when they are converted.

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It reminds me of an anecdote from John and Charles Wesley's life. 18th century founders of the

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Wesleyan Methodist movement, where we have the Methodist church from. John was the writer of the theological treatises for the movement.

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If you see John Wesley's works, it's about 15 volumes. There's a lot of sermons. There are a lot of books on theology, little tracts that he wrote.

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But not Charles. Charles doesn't have 15 volumes. But what Charles said to John was, early in the movement, if you will let me write the hymns, and you write the theology books, at the end of our lives, they will believe what

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I wrote, not what you wrote, because most of us don't study our theology books as well as we should.

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But what we sing, and as you mentioned from Ephesians, it's designed that way. What we sing in corporate worship is one of the ways that we instruct each other.

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How many of us, for good or bad, our theology has been fashioned by what we sing?

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One last question. Children in the worship service. Children listening to sermons that are above their intellect.

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You mentioned parents can prep children for this. After the service, parents can review with children.

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So that can be a great help in bridging that gap, maybe intellectually, where they're not quite there.

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At the children's level, we want to help kind of take that food and feed them. But what about the prayer meeting?

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It seems to some people that having children in a prayer meeting is an absolute waste.

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Why not go ahead and have special classes for them, a children's church, where we can teach them, because they're getting nothing from a prayer meeting.

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That would be the thought. So why do you bring children into the prayer meeting? Well, in our prayer meetings, people pray from their heart.

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So children get to know the voices and the things that other people are concerned about.

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And it's really just part of being part of a family. But I do acknowledge the prayer meeting is more challenging than the worship service.

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But at the same time, I would instruct parents to help their children understand what's going on in the room.

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Someone is being prayed for who just lost a child. Welcome to the fallen planet.

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There's somebody else who is sick. So many of the prayers are prayers just exalting

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God, just declaring how good God is. So there's a lot going on there, and you want your children to listen for the things that are going on.

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It's easy for them to zone out. It's easy for anybody to zone out. But I just believe that children get something out of everything that they're a part of, including a prayer meeting.

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And also, I think parents should teach their children sort of the various contours of prayer, the different kinds of prayer.

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In our church, whoever is leading prayer gives maybe a five - or ten -minute exhortation about prayer.

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If you cobbled all these things that are said together, it's like a theology of prayer that gets communicated in little bite -sized chunks for a long time.

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So the children will hear that. But prayer is so wonderful because it acknowledges your need.

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The reason we pray is that we're not sufficient. We actually believe God is sufficient, and so we cast our cares on Him.

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Children need to see adults casting their cares upon God because that's what they need to learn how to do too.

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If they don't learn how to cast their cares on God, what will life be like for them?

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So I like children in the prayer meeting, even though it's a little bit more challenging. But again, here's the deal.

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Parents have to power up and help their children understand what's going on in that room. It's so bad for parents just to let their children be bumps on logs in these meetings.

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Yeah, we bring children into our prayer meeting, and we have really, I think, almost an identical approach to the prayer meeting itself.

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We sing a hymn. We have about a five - to ten -minute exhortation, which is, like you said, really is just part of the theology of prayer.

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How does a man or a woman, how does a young person speak to a living

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God? What would we say? What words would we bring? But when we're asked, why do you bring children in, they're not going to pray out loud, are they?

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Well, generally, they don't. But it's because we want to see them, like you said, watch other people seek the living

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God so that when they're older, they say, I know what it looks like when a person is desperate, and they cry out to the

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Lord, or when a parent is brokenhearted, and they plead for the conversion or the rescue of their child, a grown son or daughter, or a church is confused, or people are overjoyed by God's answering their prayers.

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I've seen it happen year after year. I sat in and watched men and women meet with God. And that is something that just reading a great book on prayer could never give you.

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Right. Amen. Well, Scott, it is always encouraging to spend time with you.

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And even if we're a couple thousand miles apart, anything you would like to say as a closing comment?

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Well, the church is the most important institution. The church has the sweetest

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Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. The church is composed of the people of God.

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The church brings the living, inerrant, all -sufficient, sweeter -than -honey

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Word of God. And I want parents to really be thoughtful and power up and be very diligent during the years as they're raising children and to absolutely squeeze the greatest amount of good out of whatever local church that you're in.

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I'm not here to fix all the problems in a local church, but I am here to say, hey, there's treasure over there. Go get the treasure.

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Yeah. We'll put a link to the book in our show notes. Again, the title is The Family at Church, How Parents Are Tour Guides for Joy, 20

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Days to Transform Your Local Church Experience. Thank you very much,