Doug Robinson on Understanding What Drives Homosexuality

We are live now on the Conversations That Matter podcast. Once again, to talk with Doug Robinson, who I had on the podcast a few weeks ago, if you recall. We talked about a number of things. And can you hear me, Doug?

I hear you saying you can't hear. Can you hear what I'm saying? Hey, for everyone out there in the audience, let me know if you can hear me, because I don't know if we're having technical difficulties here, but I'm gonna just

No audio? Okay. I'm gonna keep trudging through, and we'll just see if people can hear what I'm saying, and hopefully the mic. Oh, they can hear. Okay, good. So it must be on your end, Doug. I'll let you guys figure that out while I'm talking.

The Rise of the LGBTQ Movement and the Need to Understand It

But anyway, Doug was an independent reporter in San Francisco for decades, and he got to witness the rise of, we would call it, I suppose, the gay rights movement today, or the LGBTQ plus movement. And he shed incredible light on the origins of that, and how it came to be.

And so I'm looking forward to talking to him more today about that issue, and how exactly people come to this determination, or some don't think it's a determination. So maybe we can talk about that too, to live a homosexual lifestyle.

And of course, in San Francisco, this is a very common thing to see in public, and in other parts, maybe in the middle of the United States, you don't see it quite as much. But it's coming there too. Even the little town that I live in, which now is deeper blue, I found out after the last election.

But traditionally, apple country. I mean, it's farmers. We have a lot of stuff that's come in in the last few years that I would not have, let's just say I'm surprised. I wouldn't have thought 10 years ago, we would be seeing it the way that I'm seeing it now, regarding promotion of homosexual activity and that kind of thing.

But this is something that is, I would say on the rise in many quarters of the country. And so as Christians who have a word of God that teaches us clearly about this, and even talks about homosexuality in sinful terms, and says it's an unnatural relationship in Romans one, and a violation of the created order.

How do we talk to people that are in this particular, whether you wanna call it a lifestyle or really a sinful pattern as what the Bible describes? How do we talk to people like that? And so that's what Doug Robinson's gonna be talking to us about today.

So Doug, can you hear me? I tried to give you a longer intro so you could get that worked out. I think good. Awesome. All right, well, Doug, why don't we start with a little bit of a background? I know many of the listeners probably saw the last podcast that we did.

And that was, I think, very enlightening. I got a lot of positive feedback. I know you did, but you were, like I said, an independent reporter in San Francisco for years, or a journalist. And you observed this LGBTQ plus movement on the front lines in its infancy coming to fruition.

Learning from Observation, the Fall, and False Intimacy

So I think I made a comment last time that we can learn things in an academic way. We can read a lot of books and listen to lectures and meet people and so on, or we can observe life firsthand. And I like to think that the apostles in the New Testament were not academic scholars, and yet there's so much academic work been done about them ever since.

Paul was perhaps a scholar, but the other guys were fishermen. They were tax collectors. They were tradesmen. And so, in my life, I've read hundreds of books. I haven't done grad school, but I have a college degree.

But at the same time, there is so much to learn from being with people and observing people. And part of what concerns me is Christians, Christians, we of all people have a biblical framework to understand what's wrong with the world, what's wrong with creation.

We understand because of the, what Genesis teaches us about the fall. And so we have a redemptive message to present, but we also have a framework where it's worth our time to listen to the wider world, to pay attention, to understand what's going on, and not to communicate at people, but to communicate with people is one way I like to put it.

And part of that means that we listen to things that are very uncomfortable and things that are hard, and we are slow to, not slow to believe what the Bible teaches, but slow to attack people, slow to criticize people, and gentle with people who are in pain.

The other thing I would come back to is, let me put it this way, sexuality is not intimacy. Sexuality is an expression of intimacy when people have intimacy. But too often in the wider world, it's a total substitute for intimacy.

People crave and need intimacy, emotional, intellectual, relational intimacy, and instead they substitute a sexual intimacy without a meaningful relationship. I would like to recommend a book. I've not written books on this subject, but there is a book titled False Intimacy by Harry Schomburg, and it's maybe the best book if someone wants to delve into that subject of the ways that sexuality can be counterfeit currency when what we really need is connectedness emotionally, relationally, spiritually in the way God designed as a way to, sexuality limited to marriage between man and woman as God intends.

And so there are books, there are counselors, there are people who go into great depth, and I stated last time that the problem really isn't sexual. It's relational. It's understanding, it really is understanding what it means to be human being, what God intended versus what man does.

Sincerity, Delusion, and God Giving People Over

And there was a woman who was on the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, Roberta Ochtenberg. Bill Clinton named her Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development in his first term. Bill Clinton gave his first State of the Union address, and he walked down off the podium in the House of Representatives at the joint session of Congress and gave her a hug in the front row, and that was a signal to the gay community of a change of federal policy toward homosexuality.

Roberta was someone from my neighborhood. We stood in line together at the ATM machine. We were at the bank together. My dad visited with her various times, and one day my dad came to me and he said, Roberta really believes what she says.

She was an out lesbian, a strident politician on behalf of gay rights in San Francisco, which is why Bill Clinton chose her for a federal position, the first prominent gay person in the federal bureaucracy.

And dad says, I always thought she was just putting on, but she really believes it. I said, yeah, she does. She really believes it. She really believes that she sees it right and we see it wrong. And so if I'm to relate to her as a human being, whether we're visiting in the line at the bank or whether we're debating something in Congress, whatever it is, we have to accept that as a reality, that people really, in fact, what does the scripture tell us?

The scripture says that God gives people over to believe a lie, that God allows that. It's part of his agenda at times when people reach a point in their life where he says, okay, take it. Live with the consequences of what you're embracing.

And it's in his mercy because in a sense, he lets us experience pain and consequences to things because he cares, he wants to bring us back home to reality, to what is best for us. Roberta was a very prominent politician in San Francisco and then in the federal government.

And then she slipped away, married a man, and suddenly she was no longer a hero to anybody in the political establishment because she had blown it. She had opted out, she had caved in and married a man, a biological man.

I don't know what's happened to her since.

Yeah, that's fascinating. I don't know how often that happens. I'm being told by the way, just for the listeners, I am hearing an echo or they're hearing an echo, I'm hearing it too, coming from my microphone.

It's not coming from yours though, Doug. So I think the way to proceed is I'm just gonna ask questions and let you talk. So how often does that happen where someone claims homosexuality, lives that way, and then later on in life, they become quote unquote straight or are with someone of the opposite gender?

Don't have hard numbers. I've seen it happen many times. Generally, there's a Christian conversion involved in a sense of a better understanding of what it means to fit in with the reality that God created and designed.

And then there's a certain number of those people who just struggle and go back and forth and they're in and out. What I'm trying to convey here is fundamentally our attitude toward people is extremely important.

And that is that we accept what is, not in terms of accepting it as legitimate, but we're not in denial of where people actually are at and what they actually think and actually believe. And we don't say, oh, you're just kidding, or you don't really mean that, do you?

When they really do mean it, they could be completely wrong but very sincerely wrong. And we have to accept the sincerity of what people hold, even if it conflicts with biblical norms.

Well, that's what I wanted to examine a little more and get your thought on, because I think it's interesting that Roberta here in this example, I don't know if she had a conversion to Christianity or what

I don't know, yeah. Yeah, what prompted her then to

I was not part of her life at that point, don't know.

Yeah, and my experience is much more limited than yours in interacting with homosexuals, though I've known a few in my life and of course interacted with many just in general daily, going to and fro and so forth.

But I have, in some of my own personal discussions when they have gone deeper with people that are homosexual that I've known, noticed that there does seem to be often, and my experience is with men, I should say, I mean, maybe that's different, but with men at least, there seems to be some dissonance in their thinking on it.

I see what you're saying as far as there's a sincerity. I really do think they believe that they were born this way. These are their desires, that kind of thing. But there's something raging inside of them often.

They're fighting it. And in fact, a friend recently, I'll be more specific because I wonder sometimes who's gonna watch, and I don't want to obviously embarrass anyone or expose anyone who doesn't want that.

This is a fine example, though, I think for me to share. Not long ago, there was a friend of mine who had an experience with homosexual behavior. And as a result of this, figured that he was gay, essentially.

That's at least how he framed it. And he didn't have a great relationship with his dad, which I know is a very common situation in that group of people. And he then had a conversion subsequent to that to Christianity, and he rejected homosexuality.

At least that's what he claims. And he, for a while, was very actually opposed to it in very public ways. Some of them surprisingly aggressive, to be quite honest with you. I think many people think I'm aggressive because I'm very outspoken that homosexuality is a sin according to God's standard.

But he was on another level. And I would say personal, which is bitterness and hatred against homosexuality is to the point that I thought it was a little irrational at times. This doesn't make any sense.

And then maybe in retrospect, someone would say, well, he just doesn't like himself. That's why he's hating them so much. Or I don't want to say hate, but expressing bitterness and these kinds of things, thinking they're the problem with everything.

And anyway, fast forward, he has since then moved on to, I guess you could call it a conversion, but he is now in a gay affirming church. I don't know if it's PCUSA or what, but he's in a church with the rainbow flags and all the rest, very much on board with the Bible justifies my condition.

And now is, as far as I know, dating guys and this kind of thing. So I bring that up. And just to say that this is a common thing I've noticed at least is that there seems to be this battle. There seems to be this, I feel this way, but I'm also guilty and feel convicted.

And I know this isn't really right and I'm trying to fight it, but then I feel helpless to fight it. So I go back in this case, at least he sort of went back to it. So I get the question is like, is that a common thing in your experience to see this internal battle with identity?

Yes. Because that would be the sincerity, I guess, would be the, like, is that sincere then? Okay, so think about this.

I have a friend who, I was never a student there, was at Moody Bible Institute in the 1960s. And she says there were more homosexuals at Moody Bible Institute in 1968 as a percentage of the student body than at the University of Chicago.

And I can't speak to what Moody has become. I actually don't know. But I know what it used to be. And it made, you know, I just don't know enough. Is whether it's held on to its roots or not. I'm not commenting on that.

But my point is that you're gonna find a certain percentage of people with homosexual proclivities in evangelical pulpits, as well as the priesthood and the Episcopal Church and the Catholic Church. You're gonna find a higher percentage of homosexual people in Christian college settings, even in very conservative Christian college settings.

Sometimes at a higher percentage than at the state universities. And you say, why is this? I've never heard that. Why is that? And the answer is that people are trying to get help. They're trying to be better.

They're trying to, one of my friends who was gay for years, he went off and joined the Army. That's how I'm gonna make myself straight. I'm gonna regiment my life with military discipline and so on. He said, I did pretty good while I was in the military.

And then I got out, you know. And that structure was gone. And so you're gonna find people in our churches, in our Christian schools, even in very conservative circles, who have an underlayer of, maybe they're not, maybe they're suppressing it, hiding it.

And that's just a reality. And often they're there because they want help. They don't want people to know their dark side or the side that they're ashamed of. And so, I was thinking about this lately.

I'm in a church setting. And a homeless man stood up in the middle of the Sunday morning service and started saying some things that didn't quite make sense. And he was kind of interrupting the flow of the service.

And we now have these church security teams at various congregations that move in and escort people out the door and keep the peace. And we're concerned about people bringing guns into Sunday services and firing people.

We're having things that never concerned us decades ago now do. We're concerned about public safety of children and classrooms and all the rest in our church campuses. And so, and I felt so bad for this young man who was being escorted out of the building.

Yes, he interfered with the service. Yes, he was out of order, whatever. And I thought, here's Jesus in a home speaking to a group of people. And some vandals got on the roof and started taking the roof apart.

And they lowered a man down on a cot. And they violated the decency and an order of the meeting that Jesus was conducting. But Jesus didn't have a security detail to get him off the roof and throw the guy out of the building.

Somehow, somehow our Lord took that man on the cot and gave him his full attention and healed him. And you see where I'm going. In San Francisco churches, there was one at the Open Bible Church. One guy came in full costume, face paint, red tail, everything.

He was Satan in a satanic costume as the red devil. In the middle of Sunday morning service, parading down the aisle, harassing people and screaming. What do you do? Do we have the means to play this piece of video?

I have a piece of video I'd like to play.

From San Francisco that I shot. If you go to the present option there, then it should come up. There it is. Let's play it. It's not full screen. Let's see how we can do this. This is an experiment.

This is at the first crisis pregnancy center here. I'm just muting it for a moment.

I don't know. It seems like there's a lot of noise and people can't hear what you're saying. So I'll leave it to the guy running it if he wants to mute it or not while you're talking. So I'm sorry, you were saying at the crisis pregnancy?

This is the first crisis pregnancy center in the state of California. It was hosted by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in San Francisco. And we would periodically have people come into the service and disrupt.

The building was set on fire at night. And the police never caught anybody. There was never really an investigation. And this is what goes on outside the church, sometimes during church services, outside the crisis pregnancy center that's housed in part of the church building.

Wow. Do we have audio on this without me?

There is, say, another group that a mother's summer room here works with secretly called Homosexuals Anomalous Incorporated. Boo! Boo! Boo! Tell us about the homosexuals that are on this side of the secret base that first come to the church.

One of her groups, the affiliate church groups that she works with, a lot of summer rooms, she's lying for them. Oh no.

Homosexuals Anomalous Incorporated.

Reported her to the shop. It'd be natural that she denied it all. They reported it and I just want to say, I just want to say that I got Mona to repent. Also, Repent! Homosexuals Anomalous Incorporated reported her.

We'll take the triumph of the will, Mona. 30 or 40 members, mostly men, some lesbians. And the group that she works with, she's working behind the scenes with Homosexuals Anomalous Incorporated. Exodus Incorporated.

Ah, somebody's Jesus!

Oh Mona, come out of the closet. We know about your secret life in the Westwood. We see you at a meeting every Friday night.

She's a known ex-lesbian. Her people say she's a lesbian. I'd like to check that out. It looks like a Washington, D .C. accident. Let's check that out. Check that out.

Making it clear that this is unacceptable behavior by the exes. Making it clear that this is unacceptable behavior by the exes. All of us are wrong. It's going on much too fast. All of us are wrong. We're wrong.

What about the SOS thing? The SOS thing. What about the SOS thing? The SOS thing. Well, it's like an all-inclusive attack. Well, it's like an all-inclusive attack. Do you want to play more or is that good?

That's enough. There's one point where the guy in drag, in blue dress with a beard, says, let's cackle together, and they play a witch, you know, and we don't need to see all that. I'm just, can you do that?

Maybe just that part. Back up a little bit, Dusty. Right there. Let's watch this. So you sit in church, as we did there, and this is going, I shot this myself. I went out on the sidewalk with my camera.

This is raw footage. It's just camera edits. It flows pretty well as is. You sit in church and you're trying to sing the Psalms, and this is going on outside, and where are the police? The police are across the street, sipping coffee in case something gets out of hand.

Maybe it already has. So they wrote F .U. all over the building with spray paint. They broke glass. They set the building on fire at one point. Not the same group, same day, but while we were there. And we, you go ahead.

Compassion, Boundaries, and the Difference Between Endorsement and Presence

Yeah, so I'm just thinking the significance of this is in your mind, I know this is connected somehow to how to treat people who advocate for this kind of thing, and I'm looking at this and I'm thinking there's a few different levels probably.

You have a political level at which the LGBTQ lobby, which is composed of people that are not just homosexuals, but people who support that kind of thing, publicly normalized, and that's one level at which Christians in organized groups interact.

Then you also have on the personal level, which is I think what we were talking about more before, is how do you talk to someone who's in this lifestyle and they sincerely think that they're in there, and we were on the track of what, are there limits to that sincerity?

In other words, do they know, like Romans 1 says deep down, that they're suppressing some truth? And then, I don't know if there's other levels, but I at least see those two jumping out at me. There is this political, social level where there's, because of the difference, and because they're treating the church like the church is an enemy, then there's a competition of sorts for who actually owns the public square and who is able to advocate and, or, you know, yeah, dispense their views and not be harassed for it.

So I don't know what direction you wanna go with all that. We could go in any of those.

So I would, been at this 50 some years, paying attention to this Cedric matter and befriending people. I think we befriend people and we offer help to people who want it. And it's not my job to go change people.

If God's not working on their heart and calling them to himself, and if they don't want help, then there's little I can do. But I better be available to people who want help. And when the guys broke the order of things and they took the roof off the house when Jesus was speaking to a group inside and they disrupted the meeting, they interrupted what Jesus was doing and they lowered the handicapped man on the cot.

We should side with Jesus in offering compassionate care to that man. And so people get it wrong. And I'll just tell a few stories. By the way, a piece of video we just watched is 35 years old. Yeah, wow.

Yeah.

And it could be yesterday. It could be... Just to make things clear for people, are you drawing a comparison here between Jesus letting the paralytic down and then these folks showing up? Because they seem a little bit more to me like the rambunctious ones in the crowd, like the Pharisees trying to shut Jesus down.

Yeah, you got people who are trying to shut Jesus down or shut the church down or shut the scriptures down. And then you got people who are coming, who are attending the Christian college, who are going to church because they've got deep personal problems and they want help, they want healing.

Okay, so both things are going on simultaneously. So where the church messes up, I'll give a few examples, and there's many contemporary examples, more than I know about, for sure. The Church of the Nazarene in San Francisco, 1970s, 80s, were concerned about this population.

And they brought in a young man from another state to be the innovator and a new ministry and so on. And so they started having joint services with the Metropolitan Community Church, which is the gay church denomination, gay-only denomination.

You have to be gay to be part of it. And the general superintendent for the Churches of the Nazarene in Northern California went to the gay church on a Sunday night for service and he said, man, this is like old time camp meeting.

It was emotional, people were, you know. Except that after prayer meeting on Wednesday nights, all the guys brought their sleeping bags to have sex in the church hall as a slumber party. So you have the, hmm, the lesbians for Jesus and the gay guys for God, and they're using the church to party.

And so this is not very compatible with historic holiness churches like the Wesleyan, the Nazarene, the Freemasons. The Southern Baptist San Francisco, they were afraid of getting sued like the Presbyterian Church got sued, where we just saw some of the footage by the gay community.

And so they went out and immediately hired, the Southern Baptist hired a gay person to be on staff to work with minor children. Proactive, you know, let's put gays on the Christian school staff. This was a Southern Baptist church.

Southern Baptist church, yeah. Okay. And the pastor was a very biblical guy for the most part, and we were close friends. But they were reading the politics of it and what can we do to avoid problem. And so we have to take stands, we have to be clear.

We have a biblical standard that we all need to maintain and not abandon. And yet we have to have compassion hearts that respond to people in pain and need. And the two things go together. They're not incompatible.

In fact, they complement each other. It's only when you have a biblical standard that you can offer help. To go along, to get along, to compromise, to let people follow their worst impulses is not compassion.

I made a film called Loving People Into Hell on that subject years ago. It's toxic compassion is another term people have used. It's really not healthy. It parades as compassion. And so we're back to the, are we gonna be shallow or deep people?

Are we gonna be superficial or meaningful? And what people need is people who care, who will listen deeply and pray hard and be their friend in spite of their ups and downs.

Friendship, Evangelism, and the Call to Know People

Okay, so practically, how do we do that as believers then? And I'm sure you have plenty of personal stories being in San Francisco for that many years, but how can you be, I'll tell you one other thing about me and a friendship, I guess you could call it, that I used to have or an association.

I was trying to be a friend to a man who was homosexual. And I think in the course of that, he wanted more than that, I think. I'm looking back at it and I'm looking at little things he did. And obviously I had barriers up the whole time and I'm just talking to him in public places.

I met him in a public place, shared the gospel, tried to encourage him and that kind of thing. But it was difficult from that. I never knew exactly, did he view me as a friend? Was he trying to eventually see if he could turn me away from, I don't know, I'm a married man, but he could turn me from my wife or something.

I still don't know how to answer those questions because in my mind, that seems like such a farfetched thing that he would ever think that that's even a possibility for me. But at the same time, others have told me that, yeah, I mean, this is a common thing that they've tried to minister to homosexuals.

And then it's not, I'm not saying this is universal, but this is regular enough that they're not in it for the right reasons. And so it makes that ministering kind of hard, a barrier. It's hard to detect that kind of thing.

So how do you show that compassion while not coddling someone, not allowing someone to have the impression that maybe you're so friendly that you're going to accept what they're doing and God forbid, even participate in it with them?

Like how do you avoid some of these pitfalls that I'm sure that you had to encounter?

I've never set out to be a missionary to homosexual people. The fact that the Lord has brought various people into my life, both gay and straight, different kinds of sin patterns, and to befriend people, the Lord does that with all of us, nothing unique.

Where maybe my life experience is a little different than many believers, and I'm a very conservative Bible-believing guy, always have been, is that I've been in places where a few Christians dare to tread, in settings where a few Christians are around, and so you have to say, okay, Lord, why am I here?

What do you want from me while I'm here? And what can I learn? What should I observe? And the church, we just showed some footage from outside that church. I mean, that kind of thing happened on a many-time basis there.

That's just a sample. And again, the building was set on fire at one point, and people could have died, but they got out, and so on. It's very easy to say, well, just give it up. Go somewhere else. Go somewhere safe.

And at some point, after 20 years in San Francisco, and being a father of five children and married, we moved to Kansas, to a farm. Never lived in the country before. We said, okay, we've had enough of that.

I don't think the Lord calls us to do the same thing every decade of our lives. That's good advice. And life comes in seasons, and it's supposed to, and your years raising little children, changing diapers, and feeding kids, and so on, are brief and gone, and you don't do that your whole life, and so on.

And so we have to give each other grace to make different choices in different points in our life, and realize that God might lead us opposite directions for His own reasons. He might lead me to someplace and lead you away from it.

And that's His business, not ours.

Yeah, that's good. I, practically speaking, I guess I'm wondering, you weren't, as you say, a missionary to homosexuals, but when you encountered people of this lifestyle, since that's what we're talking about, of the sin pattern, and that's probably the word I should be using more of, because it is a sin pattern, but do you, are you upfront right away with that, or do you let the relationship organically develop, and at what point do you say, hey, you need Jesus Christ?

I'll tell a real story, real people.

Good, good, that's what I want. Mark came and joined our evangelism staff in San Francisco. We had volunteers who would come for a month, for a week, two weeks, the whole summer, and pass out Bibles, and knock on doors, and befriend people, and cover the phone for counseling calls, and people came from several states to do this ministry in San Francisco we hosted.

Well, Mark had married a woman from Iran. Mark lived in Berkeley. The woman from Iran was gonna be deported unless she got married, so Mark married her, and it was in part political, it was in part compassionate.

It wasn't necessarily the best marriage, because Mark was actually a biological woman who had become a Christian in a conservative Presbyterian small, I think, reformed press church, and Mark was born and grew up as Marilyn and had become trans, and so when I moved Mark, Marilyn, and the wife from Iran, there were two sets of clothes in the closet.

There was the man's clothes, and there were the women's clothes. There was the man's tools in the garage. Mark was a woodworker. Marilyn made furniture, and now she's a real Christian. She really is a Christian, and she's still living as Mark, married to this Iranian woman, and she realizes this is not gonna, this doesn't work.

I'm either gonna follow Christ and be a woman again. They both became believers. I was sitting with Francis Schaeffer once in a little house in Santa Cruz when he said this. He said he'd known many couples who were gay who became Christian believers, and he knew absolutely, because he knew them well as people, that they were no longer sexually intimate with each other, same sex.

He just knew, he knew them well enough to know that for sure, that they were celibate, but they were still living as couples, as roommates in that sense, and Francis said this. He said every gay couple is a caricature of a bad marriage where one person is very domineering of the other, and the other has real issues of dependency that are unhealthy dependencies, and he said even every Christian couple he's seen who became celibate, became truly converted, but still maintained a friendship or roommates or something, he said that it was still like a bad marriage where one person was just lording it over the other, and so I haven't watched the clock.

I don't know where we are, but let me touch on this. You have more than enough time. Okay, gay men's relationship with other gay men is a very different dynamic than women's relationships with women. Gay men tend to be massively more promiscuous.

They tend to become more superficial and shallow personally over time, because the very behavior pattern encourages that, and I think last time we talked, they kind of become race. They kind of become shadows of their former selves.

They become caricatures of who they could have been. It's universally true. I'm making a strong statement. That's the way it is. It's not like 10 of it's that way. It's all that way. Wow. It's always that way.

They cannot escape that. Now, for some people, you're gonna see those changes gradually over three years, and to other people, 30 years, but it will happen, guaranteed, unless you find out who God intended you to be and become that person.

I never, ever heard of a pair, male or female, of people who were sexual virgins who started a homosexual relationship together and remained faithful. It never happened, ever. That's a strong statement, but it's true.

That is, and it might offend some people out there, which is fine, but you lived in the place where in the United States, it's known to have the highest concentration, and you're saying you didn't see it, so that's something worth thinking about.

So the criticism I get is, oh, you lived in San Francisco. You were in the gay community where people lived in the fast lane. They were promiscuous. They weren't conservative gays like we have here in Des Moines or wherever.

Conservative gays, okay. Who lived conservative gay lifestyles were monogamous, and I've already said last time, monogamous means primary. It does not mean exclusive. We think of it as exclusive, but the gay community never does, never.

It means primary. And so I never heard of a male or a female couple coming together as a gay couple who were not, so what happens is a naive girl goes off to college, and she has some athletic prowess, and so she joins the basketball team or the volleyball team, and the lesbian coach seduces her.

It happens over and over and over in those two sports, and she never sets out to be a lesbian, but this older woman, this coach figure, this authority figure takes a special interest, treats her well, and uses her sexually, and now you're one of us, sister.

And so it's a huge problem in athletics for women, and so what happens is this. We have what's called the butch femme cycle. This has nothing to do with the gay men. This is the women's thing. The butch femme cycle goes like this.