Doug Robinson on Understanding What Drives Homosexuality

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We are live now on the Conversations That Matter podcast. Once again, to talk with Doug Robinson, who

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I had on the podcast a few weeks ago, if you recall, we talked about a number of things.

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And can you hear me, Doug? I hear you saying you can't hear. Can you hear what I'm saying?

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Hey, for everyone out there in the audience, let me know if you can hear me, because I don't know if we're having technical difficulties here, but I'm gonna just -

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No audio? Okay. I'm gonna keep trudging through and we'll just see if people can hear what

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I'm saying and hopefully the mic, oh, they can hear. Okay, good. So it must be on your end, Doug. I'll let you guys figure that out while I'm talking.

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But anyway, Doug was an independent reporter in San Francisco for decades.

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And he got to witness the rise of, we would call it, I suppose, the gay rights movement today or the

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LGBTQ plus movement. And he shed incredible light on the origins of that and how it came to be.

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And so I'm looking forward to talking to him more today about that issue and how exactly people come to this determination, or some don't think it's a determination.

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So maybe we can talk about that too, to live a homosexual lifestyle. And of course, in San Francisco, this is a very common thing to see in public.

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And in other parts, maybe in the middle of the United States, you don't see it quite as much, but it's coming there too.

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Even the little town that I live in, which now is deeper blue, I found out after the last election, but traditionally apple country.

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I mean, it's farmers. We have a lot of stuff that's come in in the last few years that I would not have, let's just say

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I'm surprised. I wouldn't have thought 10 years ago, we would be seeing it the way that I'm seeing it now regarding promotion of homosexual activity and that kind of thing.

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But this is something that is, I would say on the rise in many quarters of the country.

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And so as Christians who have a word of God that teaches us clearly about this, and even talks about homosexuality in sinful terms and say, says it's an unnatural relationship in Romans one and a violation of the created order.

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How do we talk to people that are in this particular, whether you wanna call it a lifestyle or really a sinful pattern as what the

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Bible describes? How do we talk to people like that? And so that's what Doug Robinson's gonna be talking to us about today.

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So Doug, can you hear me? I tried to give you a longer intro so you could get that worked out. I think good. Awesome.

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All right, well, Doug, why don't we start with a little bit of a background? I know many of the listeners probably saw the last podcast that we did.

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And that was, I think, very enlightening. I got a lot of positive feedback. I know you did, but you were, like I said, an independent reporter in San Francisco for years or journalist.

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And you observed this LGBTQ plus movement on the front lines in its infancy coming to fruition.

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So I think I made a comment last time that we can learn things in an academic way.

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We can read a lot of books and listen to lectures and meet people and so on, or we can observe life firsthand.

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And I like to think that the apostles in the New Testament were not academic scholars, and yet there's so much academic work been done about them ever since.

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Paul was perhaps a scholar, but the other guys were fishermen. They were tax collectors.

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They were tradesmen. And so, in my life,

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I've read hundreds of books. I haven't done grad school, but I have a college degree.

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But at the same time, there is so much to learn from being with people and observing people.

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And part of what concerns me is Christians, we of all people have a biblical framework to understand what's wrong with the world, what's wrong with creation.

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We understand because of what Genesis teaches us about the fall. And so we have a redemptive message to present, but we also have a framework where it's worth our time to listen to the wider world, to pay attention, to understand what's going on.

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And not to communicate at people, but to communicate with people is one way

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I like to put it. And part of that means that we listen to things that are very uncomfortable and things that are hard.

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And we are slow to, not slow to believe what the

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Bible teaches, but slow to attack people, slow to criticize people, and gentle with people who are in pain.

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The other thing I would come back to is, let me put it this way. Sexuality is not intimacy.

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Sexuality is an expression of intimacy when people have intimacy.

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But too often in the wider world, it's a total substitute for intimacy.

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And people crave and need intimacy, emotional, intellectual, relational intimacy, and instead they substitute a sexual intimacy without a meaningful relationship.

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And it's a, I would like to recommend a book. I've not written books on this subject, but there is a book titled

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False Intimacy by Harry Schomburg, and it's maybe the best book if someone wants to delve into that subject of the ways that sexuality can be counterfeit currency when what we really need is connectedness emotionally, relationally, spiritually in the way

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God designed as a way to, sexuality limited to marriage between man and woman as God intends.

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And so there are books, there are counselors, there are people who go into great depth.

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And I stated last time that the problem really isn't sexual.

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It's relational. It's understanding, it really is understanding what it means to be human being, what

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God intended versus what man does. And there was a woman who was on the

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San Francisco Board of Supervisors, Roberta Ochtenberg. Bill Clinton named her

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Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development in his first term. Bill Clinton gave his first State of the

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Union address. And he walked down off the podium in the

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House of Representatives to the joint session of Congress and gave her a hug in the front row. And that was a signal to the gay community of a change of federal policy toward homosexuality.

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Roberta was someone from my neighborhood. We stood in line together at the ATM machine. We were at the bank together.

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My dad visited with her various times. And one day my dad came to me and he said,

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Roberta really believes what she says. She was an out lesbian, a strident politician on behalf of gay rights in San Francisco, which is why

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Bill Clinton chose her for a federal position, the first prominent gay person in the federal bureaucracy.

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And dad says, I always thought she was just putting on, but she really believes it.

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I said, yeah, she does. She really believes it. She really believes that she sees it right and we see it wrong.

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And so if I'm to relate to her as a human being, whether we're visiting in the line at the bank or whether we're debating something in Congress, whatever it is, we have to accept that as a reality, that people really, in fact, what does the scripture tell us?

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The scripture says that God gives people over to believe a lie, that God allows that.

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It's part of his agenda at times when people reach a point in their life where he says, okay, take it.

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Live with the consequences of what you're embracing. And it's in his mercy because in a sense, he lets us experience pain and consequences to things because he cares, he wants to bring us back home to reality, to what is best for us.

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Roberta was a very prominent politician in San Francisco and then in the federal government.

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And then she slipped away, married a man.

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And suddenly, she was no longer a hero to anybody in the political establishment because she had blown it, she had opted out, she had caved in and married a man, a biological man.

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I don't know what's happened to her since. Yeah, that's fascinating.

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I don't know how often that happens. I'm being told by the way, just for the listeners, I am hearing an echo or they're hearing an echo,

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I'm hearing it too, coming from my microphone. It's not coming from yours though,

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Doug. So I think the way to proceed is I'm just gonna ask questions and let you talk. So how often does that happen where someone claims homosexuality, lives that way, and then later on in life, they become quote unquote straight or are with someone of the opposite gender?

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Don't have hard numbers. I've seen it happen many times. Generally, there's a

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Christian conversion involved in a sense of a better understanding of what it means to fit in with the reality that God created and designed.

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And then there's a certain number of those people who just struggle and go back and forth and they're in and out.

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What I'm trying to convey here is fundamentally our attitude toward people is extremely important.

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And that is that we accept what is, not in terms of accepting it as legitimate, but we're not in denial of where people actually are at and what they actually think and actually believe.

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And we don't say, oh, you're just kidding, or you don't really mean that, do you? When they really do mean it, they could be completely wrong but very sincerely wrong, and we have to accept the sincerity of what people hold, even if it conflicts with biblical norms.

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Well, that's what I wanted to examine a little more and get your thought on, because I think it's interesting that Roberta here in this example,

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I don't know if she had a conversion to Christianity or what - I don't know, yeah. Yeah, what prompted her then to -

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I was not part of her life at that point, don't know. Yeah, and my experience is much more limited than yours in interacting with homosexuals, though I've known a few in my life and, of course, interacted with many, just in general, daily, going to and fro and so forth.

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But I have, in some of my own personal discussions, when they have gone deeper with people that are homosexual that I've known, noticed that there does seem to be often, and my experience is with men,

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I should say, I mean, maybe that's different, but with men, at least, there seems to be some dissonance in their thinking on it.

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I see what you're saying as far as there's a sincerity. I really do think they believe that they were born this way.

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These are their desires, that kind of thing. But there's something raging inside of them often.

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They're fighting it. And in fact, a friend recently, I'll be more specific, because I wonder sometimes who's gonna watch, and I don't want to obviously embarrass anyone or expose anyone who doesn't want that.

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This is a fine example, though, I think, for me to share. Not long ago, there was a friend of mine who had an experience with homosexual behavior, and as a result of this, figured that he was gay, essentially.

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That's at least how he framed it. And he didn't have a great relationship with his dad, which

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I know is a very common situation in that group of people. And he then had a conversion subsequent to that to Christianity, and he rejected homosexuality.

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At least that's what he claims. And he, for a while, was very actually opposed to it in very public ways, some of them surprisingly aggressive, to be quite honest with you.

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I think many people think I'm aggressive because I'm very outspoken that homosexuality is a sin according to God's standard.

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But he was on another level. And I would say personal, which is bitterness and hatred against homosexualities, to the point that I thought it was a little irrational at times, like, this doesn't make any sense.

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And then maybe in retrospect, someone would say, well, he just doesn't like himself. That's why he's hating them so much.

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Or I don't wanna say hate, but expressing bitterness and these kinds of things, thinking they're the problem with everything.

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And anyway, fast forward, he has since then moved on to,

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I guess you could call it a conversion, but he is now in a gay affirming church. I think,

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I don't know if it's PCUSA or what, but he's in a church with the rainbow flags and all the rest, very much on board with, the

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Bible justifies my condition. And now is, as far as I know, dating guys and this kind of thing.

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So I bring that up, and just to say that this is a common thing

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I've noticed at least is that there seems to be this battle. There seems to be this, I feel this way, but I'm also guilty and feel convicted.

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And I know this isn't really right, and I'm trying to fight it, but then I feel helpless to fight it. So I go back, in this case, at least he sort of went back to it.

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So I get the question is like, is that a common thing in your experience to see this internal battle with identity?

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Yes. Because that would, the sincerity, I guess, would be the, like, is that sincere then?

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Okay, so think about this. I have a friend who, I was never a student there, was at Moody Bible Institute in the 1960s.

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And she says there were more homosexuals at Moody Bible Institute in 1968 as a percentage of the student body than at the

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University of Chicago. And I can't speak to what

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Moody has become. I actually don't know. But I know what it used to be, and it made, you know,

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I just don't know enough, as to whether it's held on to its roots or not. I'm not commenting on that.

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But my point is that you're gonna find a certain percentage of people with homosexual proclivities in evangelical pulpits, as well as the priesthood, and the

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Episcopal Church, and the Catholic Church. You're gonna find a higher percentage of homosexual people in Christian college settings, even in very conservative

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Christian college settings, sometimes at a higher percentage than at the state universities. And you say, why is this?

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I've never heard that. Why is that? And the answer is that people are trying to get help.

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They're trying to be better. They're trying to, one of my friends who was gay for years, he went off and joined the

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Army. That's how I'm gonna make myself straight. I'm gonna regiment my life with military discipline, and so on.

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He said, I did pretty good while I was in the military. And then I got out, you know? And that structure was gone.

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And so, you're gonna find people in our churches, in our

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Christian schools, even in very conservative circles, who have an underlayer of, maybe they're not, maybe they're suppressing it, hiding it.

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And that's just a reality. And often they're there because they want help.

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They don't want people to know their dark side, or the side that they're ashamed of.

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And so, I was thinking about this lately. I'm in a church setting.

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And a homeless man stood up in the middle of the Sunday morning service and started saying some things that didn't quite make sense.

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And he was kind of interrupting the flow of the service. And we now have these church security teams at various congregations that move in and escort people out the door and keep the peace.

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And we're concerned about people bringing guns into Sunday services and firing people.

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We're having things that never concerned us decades ago now do. We're concerned about public safety of children in classrooms and all the rest in our church campuses.

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And so, and I felt so bad for this young man who was being escorted out of the building.

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Yes, he interfered with the service. Yes, he was out of order, whatever. And I thought, here's

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Jesus in a home speaking to a group of people. And some vandals got on the roof and started taking the roof apart.

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And they lowered a man down on a cot. And they violated the decency and an order of the meeting that Jesus was conducting.

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But Jesus didn't have a security detail to get him off the roof and throw the guy out of the building.

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Somehow, somehow our Lord took that man on the cot and gave him his full attention and healed him.

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And you see where I'm going. In San Francisco churches, there was one at the

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Open Bible Church, a guy came in full costume, face paint, red tail, everything.

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He was Satan in a satanic costume as the red devil. In the middle of Sunday morning service, parading down the aisle, harassing people and screaming.

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What do you do? Do we have the means to play this piece of video?

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I have a piece of video I'd like to play from San Francisco that I shot. Please, if you go to the present option there, then it should come up.

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There it is. Let's play it. It's not full screen. Let's see how we can do this.

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This is an experiment. This is at the first crisis pregnancy.

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I'm just muting it for a moment. I don't know, it seems like there's a lot of noise and people can't hear what you're saying.

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So I'll leave it to the guy running it if he wants to mute it or not while you're talking. So, I'm sorry, you were saying at the crisis pregnancy?

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This is the first crisis pregnancy center in the state of California. It was hosted by the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church in San Francisco. And we would periodically have people come into the service and disrupt.

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The building was set on fire at night and the police never caught anybody.

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There was never really an investigation. And this is what goes on outside the church, sometimes during church services, outside the crisis pregnancy center that's housed in part of the church building.

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Wow. Do we have audio on this without me?

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There is, I'm saying, another group that a mother's summer room here works with secretly called

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Homosexuals Anomalous Incorporated. Boo! Come on,

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I'm an homosexual! Be quiet!

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This is Old Leaflet, tells about a homosexual girl misdirected by secret needs that first come to church one of her groups, the 48 church groups that she works with loves several, she's fine for them.

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Uh, Homosexuals, Homosexuals, Homosexuals, First of all, she denies everything.

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When we reported her to the shop officials, she denied it all. They only reported it, and I'm just gonna stay on it.

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And, uh, try to get all the information out there. Also, Homosexuals amount to some 40 members.

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30 or 40 members, mostly men, some lesbians. And, uh, the group that she works with, she's working behind the scenes with Homosexuals.

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Ah, somebody's Jesus! Oh, Mona, come out of the closet.

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We know about your secret life in the West End. We see you at Emilia's every Friday night. People show up to support her and make it clear that this is unacceptable behavior by the

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SS. Make it clear that this is unacceptable behavior by the SS. We're throwing on much too much. What about the

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SOS thing? The SOS thing? What about the SOS thing? The SOS thing. Well, it's like an all -inclusive attack.

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Well, it's like an all -inclusive attack. Everybody else be proud.

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Sexuality is a held by law. Homosexuality is a held by law. Sexuality is not a legal issue.

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Homosexuality is not a legal issue. Homosexuality is a held by law.

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Homosexuality is a held by law. Homosexuality is a held by law. Do you wanna play more, or is that good?

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That's enough. There's one point where the guy in blue dress with a beard says, let's cackle together and they play a witch, you know, and we don't need to see all that.

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I'm just, yeah, can you do that?

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Maybe just that part, back up a little bit, Dusty. Right there.

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Let's watch this. Let's cackle together!

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So you sit in church, as we did there, and this is going...

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I shot this myself. I went out on the sidewalk with my camera. This is raw footage. It's just camera edits.

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It flows pretty well, as is. You sit in church and you're trying to sing the

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Psalms, and this is going on outside.

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And where are the police? The police are across the street, sipping coffee, in case something gets out of hand.

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Maybe it already has. So they wrote F .U. all over the building with spray paint.

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They broke glass. They set the building on fire at one point. Not the same group, same day, but while we were there.

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Yeah, so I'm just thinking that the significance of this is, in your mind,

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I know this is connected somehow to how to treat people who advocate for this kind of thing, and I'm looking at this and I'm thinking there's a few different levels, probably.

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You have a political level at which the LGBTQ lobby, which is composed of people that are not just homosexuals, but people who support that kind of thing, publicly normalized.

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And that's one level at which Christians in organized groups interact.

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Then you also have on the personal level, which is I think what we were talking about more before, is how do you talk to someone who's in this lifestyle and they sincerely think that they're in there?

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And we were on the track of, are there limits to that sincerity? In other words, do they know, like Romans 1 says deep down, that they're suppressing some truth?

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And then, I don't know if there's other levels, but I at least see those two jumping out at me. There is this political social level where there's, because of the difference and because they're treating the church like the church is an enemy, then there's a competition of sorts for who actually owns the public square and who is able to advocate and or, you know, yeah, dispense their views and not be harassed for it.

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So I don't know what direction you want to go with all that, we could go in any of those. So I would, been at this 50 some years, paying attention to this subject matter and befriending people.

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I think we befriend people and we offer help to people who want it.

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And it's not my job to go change people. If God's not working on their heart and calling them to himself and if they don't want help, then there's little

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I can do. But I better be available to people who want help.

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And when the guys broke the order of things and they took the roof off the house when

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Jesus was speaking to a group inside and they disrupted the meeting, they interrupted what Jesus was doing and they lowered the handicapped man on the cot, we should side with Jesus in offering compassionate care to that man.

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And so people get it wrong. And I'll just tell a few stories.

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By the way, a video we just watched is 35 years old. Yeah, wow.

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Yeah. And it could be yesterday, it could be... Just to make things clear for people, are you drawing a comparison here between Jesus letting the paralytic down and then these folks showing up?

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Because they seem a little bit more, to me, like the rambunctious ones in the crowd, like the Pharisees trying to shut

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Jesus down. Yeah, you've got people who are trying to shut Jesus down, or shut the

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Church down, or shut the Scriptures down, and then you've got people who are coming, who are attending the

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Christian college, who are going to church because they've got deep personal problems and they want help, they want healing.

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So both things are going on simultaneously. So where the Church messes up, I'll give a few examples, and there's many contemporary examples, more than I know about, for sure.

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The Church of the Nazarene in San Francisco, 1970s, 80s, were concerned about this population.

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And they brought in a young man from another state to be the innovator and a new ministry and so on.

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And so they started having joint services with the

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Metropolitan Community Church, which is the gay church denomination. Gay -only denomination.

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You have to be gay to be part of it. And the

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General Superintendent for the Churches of the Nazarene in Northern California went to the gay church on a

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Sunday night for service, and he said, man, this is like old time camp meeting. It was emotional, people were, you know...

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Except that after prayer meeting on Wednesday nights, all the guys brought their sleeping bags to have sex in the church hall as a slumber party.

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So you have the, hmm, the lesbians for Jesus and the gay guys for God, and they're using the church to party.

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And so this is not very compatible with historic holiness churches like the

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Wesleyan, the Nazarene, the Freemasons. The Southern Baptists, San Francisco, they were afraid of getting sued like the

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Presbyterian Church got sued, where we just saw some of the footage by the gay community.

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And so they went out immediately, hired the Southern Baptists, hired a gay person to be on staff to work with minor children.

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Proactive, you know, let's put gays on the Christian school staff. This was a

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Southern Baptist Church? Southern Baptist Church, yeah. Okay. And the pastor was a very biblical guy, for the most part, and we were close friends.

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But they were reading the politics of it, and what can we do to avoid problem?

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And so we have to take stands. We have to be clear. We have a biblical standard that we all need to maintain and not abandon.

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And yet we have to have compassion hearts that respond to people in pain and need, and the two things go together.

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They're not incompatible. In fact, they complement each other. It's only when you have a biblical standard that you can offer help.

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To go along, to get along, to compromise, to let people follow their worst impulses is not compassion.

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I made a film called Loving People Into Hell on that subject years ago.

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It's toxic compassion is another term people have used. It's really not healthy.

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It parades as compassion. And so we're back to the, are we going to be shallow or deep people?

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Are we going to be superficial or meaningful? And what people need is people who care, who will listen deeply and pray hard and be their friend in spite of their ups and downs.

36:57

Okay, so practically how do we do that as believers then? And I'm sure you have plenty of personal stories being in San Francisco for that many years, but how can you be...

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I'll tell you one other thing about me and a friendship,

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I guess you could call it, that I used to have or an association. I was trying to be a friend to a man who was homosexual, and I think in the course of that, he wanted more than that,

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I think. I'm looking back at it, and I'm looking at little things he did. And obviously, I had barriers up the whole time, and I'm just talking to him in public places.

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I met him in a public place, shared the gospel, tried to encourage him and that kind of thing.

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But it was difficult from that. I never knew exactly, did he view me as a friend?

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Was he trying to eventually see if he could turn me away from,

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I don't know, I'm a married man, but he can turn me from my wife or something. I still don't know how to answer those questions, because in my mind, that seems like such a far -fetched thing that he would ever think that that's even a possibility for me.

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But I don't know. But at the same time, others have told me that, yeah, I mean, this is a common thing that they've tried to minister to homosexuals.

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And then it's not I'm not saying this is universal, but this is regular enough that they're not in it for the right reasons.

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And so it makes that ministering kind of hard, a barrier, it's hard to detect that kind of thing.

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So, you know, how do you show that compassion while not coddling someone, not allowing someone to have the impression that maybe you're so friendly that you're going to accept what they're doing, and God forbid, even participate in it with them?

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Like, how do you avoid some of these pitfalls that I'm sure that you had to encounter? I've never set out to be a missionary to homosexual people.

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The fact that the Lord has brought various people into my life, both gay and straight, different kinds of sin patterns, and to befriend people.

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The Lord does that with all of us, nothing unique. Where maybe my life experience is a little different than many believers, and I'm a very conservative

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Bible -believing guy, always have been, is that I've been in places where few

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Christians dare to tread, in settings where a few

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Christians are around, and so you have to say, okay, Lord, why am I here? What do you want from me while I'm here?

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And what can I learn? What should I observe? And the church, we just showed some footage from outside that church.

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I mean, that kind of thing happened on a many -time basis there. That's just a sample.

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And again, the building was set on fire at one point, and people could have died, but they got out, and so on.

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It's very easy to say, well, just give it up, go somewhere else, you know, go somewhere safe.

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And at some point, after 20 years in San Francisco and being a father of five children and married, we moved to Kansas, to a farm.

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Never lived in the country before. We said, okay, we've had enough of that. I don't think the

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Lord calls us to do the same thing every decade of our lives, you know. That's good advice. And life comes in seasons, and it's supposed to, and your years raising little children, changing diapers, and feeding kids, and so on, are brief and gone, and you don't do that your whole life, and so on.

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And so we have to give each other grace to make different choices in different points in our life, and realize that God might lead us opposite directions for his own reasons.

41:48

He might lead me to someplace and lead you away from it. And that's his business, not ours.

41:59

Yeah, that's good. Practically speaking, I guess I'm wondering, you weren't, as you say, a missionary to homosexuals, but when you encountered people of this lifestyle, since that's what we're talking about, of the sin pattern, and that's probably the word

42:18

I should be using more of, because it is a sin pattern, but like, are you upfront, you know, right away with that, or do you let the relationship organically develop?

42:28

And at what point do you say, hey, you need

42:34

Jesus Christ? I'll tell a real story, real people. Good, good. Mark came and joined our evangelism staff in San Francisco.

42:44

We had volunteers who would come for a month, for a week, two weeks, the whole summer, and pass out

42:50

Bibles, and knock on doors, and befriend people, and cover the phone for counseling calls, and people came from several states to do this ministry in San Francisco.

43:01

We hosted. Well, Mark had married a woman from Iran.

43:08

Mark lived in Berkeley. The woman from Iran was going to be deported unless she got married, so Mark married her, and it was in part political, it was in part compassionate.

43:23

It wasn't necessarily the best marriage, because Mark was actually a biological woman who had become a

43:33

Christian in a conservative Presbyterian, small, I think, Reformed press church, and Mark was born and grew up as Marilyn, and had become trans, and so when

43:55

I moved Mark, Marilyn, and the wife from Iran, there were two sets of clothes in the closet.

44:05

There was the man's clothes, and there were the women's clothes. There was the man's tools in the garage.

44:11

Mark was a woodworker. Marilyn made furniture, and now she's a real

44:19

Christian. She really is a Christian, and she's still living as Mark, married to this Iranian woman, and she realizes this is not gonna, this doesn't work, you know,

44:34

I'm either gonna follow Christ and be a woman again, you know. They both became believers.

44:48

I was sitting with Francis Schaefer once in a little house in Santa Cruz when he said this.

44:54

He said he'd known many couples who were gay who became

45:00

Christian believers, and he knew absolutely, because he knew them well as people, that they were no longer sexually intimate with each other, same -sex.

45:12

He just knew, he knew them well enough to know that for sure, that they were celibate, but they were still living as couples, as roommates in that sense, and he made,

45:25

Francis said this, he said every gay couple is a caricature of a bad marriage, where one person is very domineering of the other, and the other has real issues of dependency that are unhealthy dependencies, and he said even every

45:49

Christian couple he's seen who became celibate, became truly converted, but still maintained a friendship or roommates or something, he said that it was still like a bad marriage, where one person was just lording it over the other.

46:11

And so, I haven't watched the clock, I don't know where we are, but let me touch on this.

46:17

You have more than enough time. Okay. Gay men's relationship with other gay men is very different dynamic than women's relationships with women.

46:36

Gay men tend to be massively more promiscuous. They tend to become more superficial and shallow, personally, over time, because the very behavior pattern encourages that, and I think

46:58

I, last time we talked, they kind of become race, they kind of become shadows of their former selves, they become caricatures of who they could have been.

47:06

It's universally true. I'm making a strong statement, that's the way it is.

47:14

It's not like 10 % of it's that way, it's all that way. Wow. It's always that way.

47:20

They cannot escape that. Now, for some people, you're gonna see those changes gradually over three years, and other people, 30 years, but it will happen, guaranteed, unless you find out who

47:37

God intended you to be and become that person. I never, ever heard of a pair, male or female, of people who were sexual virgins, who started a homosexual relationship together and remained faithful.

47:59

It never happened. Ever. That's a strong statement, but it's true.

48:07

That is, and it might offend some people out there, which is fine, but, I mean, you lived in the place where, in the

48:16

United States, it's known to have the highest concentration, and you're saying you didn't see it, so that's something worth thinking about.

48:22

So, the criticism I get is, oh, you lived in San Francisco, you were in the gay community where people lived in the fast lane, they were promiscuous, they weren't conservative gays, like we have here in Des Moines, or wherever.

48:42

Conservative gays, okay. Who lived conservative gay lifestyles, monogamous, and I've already said last time, monogamous means primary, it does not mean exclusive.

48:53

We think of it as exclusive, but the gay community never does.

48:59

Never. It means primary. And so, I never heard of a male or a female couple coming together as a gay couple who were not, there's, so what happens, a naive girl goes off to college, and she has some athletic prowess, and so she joins the basketball team or the volleyball team, and the lesbian coach seduces her.

49:31

It happens over and over and over in those two sports, and she never sets out to be a lesbian, but this older woman, this coach figure, this authority figure, takes a special interest, treats her well, and uses her sexually.

49:53

And now you're one of us, sister. And so, it's a huge problem in athletics for women.

50:03

And so, what happens is this, we have what's called the butch -femme cycle. This has nothing to do with the gay men, this is the women's thing.

50:12

The butch -femme cycle goes like this, a predator, I'm gonna use that strong word intentionally, a predator woman will prey on a younger, vulnerable, naive woman, and bring her into her orbit and her arms, and that woman will adore the older woman and be thankful that she's special and got this all this attention and money spent on her and car gifted and scholarship and athletic, whatever.

50:48

And it lasts about 18 months. There's a predictable 18 -month cycle.

50:54

The lesbian literature writes about this. I didn't write this, I read it. I've observed it.

51:03

At the end of about 18 months, the vulnerable, dependent, younger, weaker woman has had it up to here with the way she's being treated, exploited, and abused.

51:19

And she finally gets enough anger as the rising thermometer that she gets the courage and the strength to break off the relationship.

51:34

Then what does she do? Now she feels powerful.

51:42

I broke it off. I She finds a girl who needs attention, who she likes being around, and she starts the cycle.

52:02

So she becomes the butch to the new femme.

52:09

Hmm. Yeah, I haven't heard this before. I didn't hear you say it. No, I just said

52:15

I haven't heard this before. That's interesting. You have heard this or have you? I have not.

52:20

Okay, this is, this is a universal pattern. And I say 18 months.

52:26

That's, that's the average. It could be 12 months. Obviously, it could be 27. Now you're gonna find some lesbian couples who've been together for years, who are 65 years old, in small towns all over middle

52:42

America. And they're, but they never started out together.

52:52

They always had other partners along the way, and they just kind of got old and slowed down and, and mellow in some ways, and put up with each other.

53:04

But there is a,

53:13

I'd be careful with terminology, but one of the words is bull dyke, is, is the woman who's been through the cycle a few, a few times.

53:21

And she's like the lady I mentioned last time who had five female wives in one house. And she is, she is a dictator.

53:30

She's a domineering dictator who demands that the other women submit and obey and comply.

53:40

And, and so you become hardened, you become more aggressive, more over time.

53:49

The problem is, what we should be compassionate about, we shouldn't accept that as being normative or being healthy, never.

54:02

We should accept it as being real, that it actually happens, that people actually gonna, you know, and deal with that reality.

54:09

We shouldn't deny it. That's what, that's what I'm, when I say acceptance, I don't mean we accept it as being valid. We, but we accept it as being, it actually exists.

54:17

It's there. So, women go through this butch femme cycle.

54:28

And there, there are pretty little effeminate lesbians who dress like attractive young women for a while.

54:38

But once they go through the cycle a few times, they start looking more butch. And, and, and there's a few examples in the video we just watched, the girl with the headband on, she's very aggressive.

54:49

I have videotape of her many other places. And she became quite the activist.

55:01

With gay men, it's, it's different.

55:10

Gay men tend to either, it's, it's kind of parallel to the butch femme thing, but, but women go through, cycle through both positions, and they, they become hardened over time.

55:23

Gay men tend to be compensating, trying to be uber -masculine.

55:33

And, and then the others who tend to be fems, or the transvestites, or now we, we, we use trans more, trying to be the woman.

55:49

And there, there are gay men who stay on the, on the more feminine side of trying, or pretending, or trying, or dressing as, or whatever, for long periods of time.

56:03

And, and they prostitute themselves to a whole bunch of, of aggressive gay men.

56:11

They never become the, the hardened guy. They just become more victims and more pathetic over time.

56:18

It's very sad, very sad. And the, then there are those aggressive gay men who, who are, they want to be in the military.

56:33

They want to run the world. They want to be in charge. They want to put people in the, they want to, they can be very violent.

56:39

They can be very aggressive. And they don't dress up like women.

56:49

They, they, quite the contrary. And yet they, they become great abusers of, of other gay men.

57:01

And so, back to conversation with Francis Schaeffer in Santa Cruz, he's, he said, we see this, these same -sex relationships as being like bad marriages, where one partner suffers and the other one domineers in ways that are really unhealthy.

57:18

Instead of complementing each other, it's real subservience and real dominance that's just out of bounds.

57:27

And most relationships don't start that way, but inevitably they tend that way, and tend that way rather strongly in same -sex relationships.

57:42

On this basis alone, we can say that same -sex marriage doesn't work. Apart from anything

57:50

God would tell us in Scripture about his intentions for men and women, apart from human history and tradition, same -sex marriages don't work.

58:07

I've never heard of any that are truly monogamous, as, as we would understand monogamy, truly faithful, and somebody's always getting hurt at the expense of the other one in ways that we should not allow and not encourage.

58:35

I've said some strong things, and I want to make clear that I really believe,

58:43

I've really observed what I'm saying is true, and someone could, you know, strongly disagree with me, that's fine.

58:52

We go watch people for 50 years, as I have, and listen to people, and listen to their stories, and know them as people, and not just stereotypes, and you'll agree with me.

59:05

And every person is different, and every relationship is different, and yet they all follow the same patterns, and they may follow them at different speeds, at different progressions, at different turning points, but it will go the same way.

59:21

That's fascinating. Doug, do you have time for some questions? Can we, because a lot of people are asking questions now, and I'd love to show you what they're saying, so there's so many questions

59:34

I have, but I want to get to the listeners here. Romans 8 shaman, okay?

59:39

That's the name. Question for Doug. How on earth do gay churches even exist? How do gays rationalize their sin, especially doing orgies in church?

59:47

This is pure insanity. Well, I think we actually talked about that a little bit last time.

01:00:01

People want it both ways. They want to hang on to their addiction, and sexual addiction is what

01:00:09

I'm referring to in that thing. I say that the issues surrounding homosexuality are really not sexual, and that's true up here.

01:00:20

That's a fascinating statement. Sexual addiction is a real thing down here, but it's not the real problem.

01:00:26

The real problem is up here, and it has to do with understanding what it means to be human. Who defines what humanity is?

01:00:35

Sexuality is a subset of that. Just like I say that sexuality is not intimacy, but sexuality is part of intimacy for a married couple that has intimacy on many levels about many things.

01:00:51

Sexuality is a way of expressing the intimacy that you have, but it is not your intimacy.

01:00:57

It is an expression of, and it's a way of forming and bringing children into the world, and that's part of the beauty of an intimate relationship, is it reproduces itself.

01:01:10

That's right. What a gift. It's the creative gift from our creative God, and same -sex marriages can't do that without artificial insemination and adoption and all the other ways, and then those children get exploited.

01:01:26

I've heard that. I've heard that's a huge problem. Rebel Yell 76 says,

01:01:33

I befriended two homosexuals in my life, both evidently attempted to make a pass with their speech.

01:01:38

I learned that there is a great gulf that exists between what one might idealically like to assign in good faith and the reality of matters set before us.

01:01:51

So I think he's saying they weren't interested in the gospel or in a real friendship, but they were trying to be patient until they could maybe get him to engage in homosexual activity.

01:02:05

So that's more of an observation, and I think maybe the question behind it, he didn't say this, but I think maybe that's coming from a place of, so how do

01:02:16

I become friends with people that are like this? And maybe the answer is, they're not all like that, but that certainly exists.

01:02:23

Again, I think you have to befriend the people God puts in your life. I have befriended many, I've been with many, many people very different from myself, and I've never felt any of those tensions from anyone.

01:02:36

I never felt like anybody was somehow sexually or romantically interested in me. Probably because of the vibes

01:02:42

I give off, that's a no starter. But I still care about you, and I still would befriend you, and I have clear boundaries.

01:02:54

I'm not...and I think people know that. It's the things we don't...the things we communicate without words go a long ways.

01:03:06

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point, and I think I've even seen that in my own life.

01:03:13

I remember I was in California, and we were doing Half Dome, and you need a pass to get up there, and we didn't have one, and we just thought, well, hopefully we meet someone with extra passes, and we met this gay couple.

01:03:27

Actually, it was us and this other guy we had hooked up with on the trail who was also trying to get up there. Same problem we had, and this gay couple had extra passes, and yeah, for the longest...this

01:03:39

is my problem, perhaps, the vibes I give off. For like half the hike, and these guys had extra passes, were willing to give them to us.

01:03:46

I just thought, man, they're real good friends. They're holding hands, and I'm just thinking, man, they must be really close friends or brothers or something.

01:03:55

It was a little weird, some of the things. They weren't holding hands the whole time, but they were a little touchy with each other, and I just thought, well, maybe they're from some different cultural background.

01:04:04

I'm constantly coming up with reasons in my mind for why that might not be homosexuality, and then

01:04:09

I got surprised when he blatantly just told me that we're married, and I didn't know what to say, because we were talking about Christianity, and he had been alienated from the church and was trying to get back, and I was like, why are you alienated, and he just kind of gave me this look.

01:04:25

But anyway, in the course of that, maybe this is my problem too, and I don't know if there's a solution for it.

01:04:33

It just might be how I am, just like we're all different, but I don't always anticipate those things, and sometimes

01:04:40

I can be friendly, and maybe it's taken the wrong way, because I'm not seeing things.

01:04:47

I'm not in the mind of someone who is thinking that way. I can't conceive that they'd be thinking that way, and I think there's a lot of well -meaning people like that.

01:04:59

I don't know if there's a level of awareness that you need to be able to, because you certainly would have it being in San Francisco as long as you were.

01:05:06

You would know that mindset. I don't as well. I'm getting there, but do you need to understand that mindset before you engage, or is it just something you learn as you go?

01:05:21

What do you think? I don't know. We're all wired a little differently.

01:05:28

We have different temperaments, different personalities. I've certainly observed what you're talking about.

01:05:43

I've watched other people who get hounded by somebody who's sexually pursuing them, and they're like, how can

01:05:50

I get rid of this person? I don't know how you got in the first place.

01:05:57

You were naive. Right. Yeah, so maybe a healthy dose of just skepticism, or I don't know if that's the word, but understanding that people do have often motives, selfish motives, sinful motives that not everyone thinks the same way that you think or that maybe typical person that you deal with thinks.

01:06:21

Which comes back to one of the things I started with is that we have to really believe and understand that the other person sees things differently than I do, and I have to care about them enough.

01:06:35

To me, this is basic Christianity. I care enough about other people to want to really know how they see and understand.

01:06:45

It's not about agreeing with them, but it's about knowing. It's about understanding, and that's the starting point.

01:06:58

I have a few other questions if you're ready for them. Yes, sure. So, this is an interesting one to me.

01:07:04

I'm wondering, says Teresa, about so many endocrine disruptors like astrazine that actually change the brain and make people gay.

01:07:14

Okay, I didn't know that, but RFK Jr. was talking about it and says it's a big problem. Now, I have heard this, that there's these endocrine disruptors.

01:07:22

Plastic, I know, is an endocrine disruptor. We're all drinking from plastic, right? Some people think that is the explanation, which

01:07:32

I don't think that's that at all because we've had homosexuality long before these endocrine disruptors, but do you think that's a contributor?

01:07:42

I don't know. Is that as a matter of public policy? I don't know if that's something you're even remotely interested in of limiting plastics or I don't know what else they're putting in our food that could be causing this or is this just purely, this is just sin and that's what the

01:07:56

Bible describes it as and we should treat it that way. There are many reasons that things go wrong.

01:08:05

There could be endocrine reasons internally with your hormones, your organs.

01:08:12

There could be infections in your brain cells that are changing your personality. There could be a substance abuse problem with similar results.

01:08:22

I mean, there's so many reasons that things can go wrong and we should, if things we eat or pesticides affecting our food supply or plastics packaging our food are affecting our biology, and I'm sure they are and there are many ways they are, but we live in a fallen world, we should expect that.

01:08:54

I mean, we shouldn't just accept it as, we should find ways to work around it as best we know, but yeah, it's gonna happen.

01:09:02

Yeah, okay. Here's another one for you, this is from Susan.

01:09:09

Should a Christian belong to a woman's organization that now accepts trans men to women with a changed birth certificate?

01:09:20

So I'll answer it this way. Someone objected to something I said last time I was on with you. Well, he seems to be accepting of gay people in, you know, whatever happened to,

01:09:33

I mean, should Christians go to gay marriages? Should Christians, let me see that question again.

01:09:50

Oh, sure. Sorry. If I can find it again, hold on, let me look for it. It was, all right, here it is.

01:09:55

Should a Christian belong to a woman's organization that now accepts trans men to women with a changed birth certificate?

01:10:02

I think it means as women, not to women. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so should

01:10:08

I go to a football game in a public place with a large crowd that has a...

01:10:18

I think she's talking about like exclusive women's organization, so if it's a woman's sports team or...

01:10:24

Okay, so there's a range of things. So should

01:10:30

I go to my sister's homosexual wedding and imply endorsement?

01:10:40

And my sister's not a homosexual, she's... I got it, hypothetical, yeah. And I would say no, you should not go to your relative's same -sex marriage out of deference to your family.

01:10:54

You should not go. Right. Okay. Should you ever go to a gay marriage?

01:11:01

I went to a lesbian marriage where 500 lesbian couples were getting married the same day.

01:11:08

I was there. Did I know any of those people personally? No. You weren't endorsing it.

01:11:15

I wasn't endorsing it. I was there taking pictures. I was there taking notes. I was there observing. Was I endorsed?

01:11:25

No, no. But I wanted to know what happened. I wanted to see it myself. I had a

01:11:39

Presbyterian pastor friend who was pretty straight and fairly biblical, who had a lesbian co -pastor on his staff.

01:11:54

And he didn't agree with that, but he didn't resign either.

01:12:01

He didn't fire her or move to have her fired. He just kind of lived with it.

01:12:07

And I would say, no, you can't do that, because you can't be organizationally bound in such a close organizational structure where you're diametrically opposed about what

01:12:20

God intends. Can you be a member of a

01:12:28

Bible -believing, conservative United Methodist Church in Iowa that has a

01:12:36

Bible -teaching Korean missionary sent to be a missionary to America from South Korea as your pastor?

01:12:44

There's a bunch of those. Does that mean that you're part of the local church with the local farmers in the small town and you have a

01:12:54

Bible -believing Korean pastor? Does that mean you're endorsing everything the United Methodist Church just did at the

01:13:00

National Convention? Well, you've got to decide. And a lot of those churches have broken away from that larger association over those issues.

01:13:16

But you can't avoid it. Everywhere you go, there's going to be some association.

01:13:22

And so there's a group of Christians who are, I won't name names or anything, but they call second -degree separation.

01:13:28

You can't associate with people who associate with other people who are the wrong people. Well, that itself is its own problem.

01:13:39

It's like, okay, Jesus, you blew it. You should never come into this planet, because you got compromised by coming here.

01:13:48

No, He came as the sacrificial Redeemer because we were in trouble. So what I hear you saying is it is the nature of the association.

01:13:56

If it is association of endorsement, participation in sin, you can't associate.

01:14:02

But if it's an association where you don't have to do those things, and perhaps there's a positive result that can occur from being in proximity to these sinful things are happening, but you're not participating, but in the case of you, you're exposing, or you're using it as a platform to have a friendship with someone or something.

01:14:26

Maybe there's reasons to be part of something like that. I think that God could call you to make different choices than He would call me to make for different reasons, and we shouldn't dismiss each other.

01:14:40

Sure. Well, I will tell you one thing. I don't think my daughter is ever going to be playing any kind of rough sport with boys, biological boys on the soccer or football.

01:14:51

Well, not that a girl would play football, but try to think what sports, you know, baseball. Well, some girls have played in high school.

01:14:57

That's true. So there are. Yeah, that's right. That's right. There are. All right. So here's another question.

01:15:04

Actually, I don't know if this is maybe this is an observation, but sounds like ironically, any LGBT relations still means that one has to play the male and other female as some twisted sick parody.

01:15:14

So you can't get away profoundly accurate. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Good summary of I think what you were saying.

01:15:24

So all right. If anyone else has questions, get them in now or else we'll wrap things up.

01:15:30

I know I wanted to ask kind of a personal question of you, Doug. And, you know, it's a long time to devote to 50 years,

01:15:37

I think you said, to be tracking this stuff. And, you know, I just I guess the question is, why?

01:15:44

Why did you why were you so interested? Is it that you have a you said you weren't a missionary to gay people?

01:15:49

So then what we were missionaries to the city of San Francisco in the city on terms. But I mean, that's why we were there.

01:15:56

OK, so so you were there ministering and this as in your free time or as a side thing, you decided to track this stuff or was that your full time job essentially was filming and being a journalist?

01:16:16

There were a lot of things going on around me that that I was aware that other

01:16:22

Christians were not paying attention to. And.

01:16:30

And again, I mentioned last time I was with with Schaefer when I was a young man and traveled with him quite a bit, and he he influenced me.

01:16:40

Francis Schaefer went to Oakland, California a long time ago and spent the weekend with the

01:16:47

Grateful Dead. Like with them, with them in the crowd at the

01:16:52

Oakland Auditorium, hanging out with the deadheads, he and Edith together. For the weekend, and they didn't go to pass out tracks, they didn't go to, you know, have a protest or a prayer protest or or they went to watch, to listen, to ask questions, to observe carefully, thoughtfully what's going on.

01:17:26

And when he told me that, I thought, how many prominent Christian leaders take the time to do things like that?

01:17:36

He wasn't endorsing Jerry Garcia's lifestyle or music.

01:17:46

It wasn't even like being Mother Teresa, being present with the dying. It was,

01:17:54

I want to know what's going on in the world so that I can understand the deadheads that are coming to stay with me at LaBrie.

01:18:02

I want to know, I want to help them. I want to understand them better. I want to be better informed.

01:18:08

So I'm going to go hang out with Jerry and the band for the weekend. That was a long time ago and another generation removed, you know, from where we sit today.

01:18:20

But the principle still applies. So you were, go ahead, sorry.

01:18:28

Walter Martin wrote books, and I don't know how many people even know about him today, but Kingdom of the

01:18:33

Cults. And he wrote the best critique of Mormonism and JWs and all kinds of other things out there.

01:18:45

And he got criticized because, why are you, why are you paying attention to false doctrine?

01:18:54

And one of his answers, I heard him say in person, was, so you don't have to. He said, not everybody should do what

01:19:02

I'm doing. Yeah. Okay. When you go to a, okay, we have this thing in Christianity, we have this little cliche.

01:19:10

You shouldn't, you shouldn't look at evil things, you know. How do you tell counterfeit money?

01:19:17

By knowing what good money looks like, you know. How do you, what does

01:19:22

Philippians say? Focus on things that are true, noble, right, pure, lovely, and honorable. And so Christians shouldn't look at evil things or know about evil things or whatever.

01:19:32

So, but let me bring it back to this. You have a disease, and you need to see a surgeon.

01:19:40

Do you want a doctor who only thinks about health, or do you want a doctor who understands your disease, who has studied malignancy and knows what to do about it?

01:19:52

Not everybody should study malignant cancers. We don't need that, but we need some people to.

01:20:00

Not everybody should study the cults or the kingdom of the cults like Walter Martin did, but some of us should be grateful that his books are on our library shelves and we could refer to them when we need to.

01:20:12

We could be thankful for his life work, etc.,

01:20:18

etc. We each have a calling from God to learn things and do things on behalf of the body of Christ.

01:20:25

It's not the same thing for everybody. And we have to say, okay, where am

01:20:32

I? Where has God put me? What does he want from me? It's that simple. Yeah, well

01:20:38

I'm grateful for you, brother, and thankful for your example and wisdom and the time you have taken to understand where people are coming from, and now you're passing it on so other people can take advantage of this wisdom.

01:20:54

I do want to ask, because someone said they found you on Facebook, and I have more questions coming, and we don't have time for it, but if people want to ask you questions,

01:21:03

I know last time... I don't have a website. I do Facebook quite a bit. You can find me there. Okay, Facebook.

01:21:10

I think last time, too, I told people they could contact me, and then I would get them to you, and we can still do that, but if you want a public kind of like footprint for Doug Robinson, I think you just...

01:21:25

I'm going to make sure this is easy. I think you just go to Facebook and type in Doug Robinson. I'm typing it in now just to make sure.

01:21:32

Yeah, we don't all... all the Dougs don't have white beards like this. Yeah, so you're in a white... that's a good...

01:21:37

yeah, because I just had a million Doug Robinsons come up, so look for the Doug Robinson that has a white beard, and you will find who you're looking for there.

01:21:48

So anyway, well yeah, with that, I appreciate you taking your time, like I said. I'd like to do one more thing.

01:21:53

Please. There's a gentleman sitting here opposite me who's made this possible today, who had a son born way premature, who's still in a hospital weeks and weeks, and I'd like to pray for him right now.

01:22:07

This little boy named Brody. Let's pray for Brody. This matters to God as much as anything else we talked about.

01:22:16

Father in heaven, we know you care about the child as much as the adult, and before you were all children.

01:22:23

We're all just beginners. Even when we're 85 years old, we haven't touched on the fields of eternity yet.

01:22:31

We pray for Brody right now that you would strengthen his young body. You would strengthen his father and his mother as they go through the travails of travel, and and distance, and hospitalization, and care for him, and bring great things through his life, and use him for your glory.

01:22:50

In Christ's name, amen. Amen. Thanks, Doug. God bless.