Former Friend & Employee of Robert Morris: What Morris Did, Who Knew and Who Covered It Up

Justin Peters

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Welcome to the program, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Justin Peters. I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today.

00:06

I want to thank you so much for joining me. Undoubtedly, by now you have heard of Robert Morris resigning as pastor of Gateway Church.

00:17

You've at least heard of the allegations against him, very serious allegations. Megachurch founder and pastor

00:23

Robert Morris has admitted to moral failings following accusations of sexual abuse of a child published online this past Friday.

00:31

Our Andrea Lucia reports the church leaders say they were aware of what happened. So God heals,

00:38

God redeems. Based in Southlake, Gateway Church is one of the country's largest megachurches.

00:44

So you can't redeem yourself. With about 100 ,000 people attending every weekend. And nine locations spread throughout

00:51

North Texas. Founder and senior pastor Robert Morris reaches even larger audiences in a weekly program posted online and broadcast in more than 190 countries.

01:02

It's been pretty devastating. For Cindy Clemeshire, seeing his influence grow has been difficult.

01:09

How on earth could anyone let him be in leadership when they knew what he did to me?

01:15

She was 12 years old when she says Morris began molesting her. He and his wife were friends of her parents, who would often stay over.

01:23

And the abuse, she says, continued for four and a half years. And so I'm going to be talking about this with the aid of Steve LeBlanc.

01:33

Steve is the pastor of Sherman Bible Church in Sherman, Texas, just north of the DFW area.

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And he has become a good friend of mine. Steve invited me to preach at his church this past February.

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And so I had the honor of doing so. And we spent quite a bit of time together. And Steve has become a good friend of mine.

01:52

I have a great deal of respect and love for Steve. He is definitely, definitely one of the good guys.

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And I want to interview Steve because he is, he knows

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Robert Morris. He served with him for many years, was a close personal friend of Robert Morris back when

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Steve's theology was not as solid as it is now. But when I was with Steve this past February, he told me a lot of the things that he knows about Robert Morris and how things were done in the church and the theology and the doctrine and all that kind of stuff.

02:30

And so I told him back then, I would love to have you on my YouTube channel to talk about these primarily just doctrinal issues and theological issues.

02:40

And he agreed to do that. But now the events, the news of the past few days have brought this into sharp focus.

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And so just so you know, I've been wanting to have Steve on my program to talk about Robert Morris and basically his theology for a long time.

02:57

But all of the news surrounding Robert Morris now has brought this into sharp focus. And so I am going to be interviewing him.

03:04

I think you'll find that Steve is a gentle spirited guy, but he is deeply, deeply troubled about these revelations as we all should be.

03:14

And he and I both will have some strong but needed things to say about what has transpired.

03:22

And I promise you when you watch this interview, you will hear things from Steve that you're not hearing anywhere else.

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You're not reading anywhere else. He's going to shed a lot of light on this for us. So by the way, if you happen to live in the

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Sherman area and you're looking for a good church, I can tell you if I lived there, this is where I would be going to church.

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So link down to Steve's church down there below in the description. All right, dear ones, without any further delay, here's my interview with Pastor Steve LeBlanc.

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And we recorded this on the afternoon of June 18th, 2024. Well, Steve, brother, it's good to see you again.

04:08

Welcome to the program. I wish I was having you on under happier circumstances, but thank you so much for taking your time.

04:17

You're welcome, Justin. Good to be here. I wish I know we've been planning on doing something.

04:24

I wish it was a different circumstances as well. Yeah, yeah, we've been planning.

04:29

We talked, you know, I preached at your church, what, four months ago, back in February or so. And we talked about doing this interview on my channel and just talking about your experiences with Gateway Church and how you came to know

04:44

Robert Morris. And we were going to primarily focus on the theological stuff. And then this, of course, burst onto the news just a few days ago as of this recording.

04:55

But, Steve, if you would give us a little bit of background. How did you first begin your relationship with Robert Morris and come to serve with him?

05:07

OK, so 1988 is when I, as a college student,

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I went to Shady Grove Church for the first time and I met Robert fairly quickly after that.

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I knew he was a friend of all the elders. He was close with everybody in leadership. And so I, you know, when

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I when I met all the people that were in leadership, not all of them, but most of them, even just that first year

05:34

I was there, September is when I started of 88. I knew him.

05:42

I knew he had a background as an evangelist. And so that's kind of where that that's where that began.

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And then we we got closer the more

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I served at Shady Grove. And so I would volunteer in various areas and I got into ministry just by I have

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I have a Ph .D. in setting up chairs. Uh, apparently

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I'm good at it. So they kept asking me to set up more chairs and. Yeah, I kept setting up chairs and I got to know the leadership and got along with a few of the other elders really well.

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And and yeah, that's how I got to know him. That's when I got to know him in 89 and 90. Got to know him really well and and did some things together.

06:34

And that was the beginning of that friendship. Yeah. And the friendship continued many years and you served on staff with him.

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And and tell us. I mean, at one point you got so close, he called you.

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What was it he called you? You're you were his son and what was the spiritual son in ministry, spiritual son in ministry.

06:57

OK, so tell us a little bit about your I know it's hard to condense years of.

07:03

Service with him in just a few minutes, but tell us about some of the things that you observed about Robert Morris and and then

07:12

I'm sure people are wondering what led you out of that to be in a very different theological position now than where you were back then.

07:21

Yeah, so much of Shady Grove was I call it a theological.

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A wide range of doctrinal stances on a wide range of doctrines.

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If you if you broke it down to systematic, there was just a there was a huge allowance for for deviation from any standard.

07:46

Jesus was the way. To heaven and absolutely on that on that central issue.

07:55

Total agreement. Other things weren't necessarily at all so.

08:02

Getting to getting to know Robert primarily or initially, I should say, came from just a hello.

08:09

How are you? And he was in the pulpit and then I'm serving and he got to know me through that way.

08:16

And and so when I came on staff. I served there through college and then did youth ministry at the

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West Campus. Starting in 1990 and then came back to the central campus and then later became.

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The youth pastor and then I became the college and career pastor.

08:40

I did the college and career pastor because I've been made the executive pastor, so I was over all the staff and I was serving directly in the senior pastor.

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And then became an elder in in 2000. OK, OK, when did you begin to?

08:58

When did you begin to see there's some theological problems here and did you voice those to Robert Morris as your theology developed?

09:07

And you know, how did that come about? No, I I didn't voice them to Robert.

09:13

It would not work. It wouldn't work that way. OK, there. Robert Robert and I got along because I had a high respect for him and and was.

09:27

Probably in the world's eyes, I would have been subservient. I think I wouldn't have questioned him or or at that time now in years ahead.

09:38

Very much, but not not in those years they were. He was, you know, I knew he was.

09:43

He he became an elder. Believe it was 1990. It was 1990.

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He became an elder and so I had been there only two years and so. We held the elders in very high esteem.

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Most of those men, as far as we could understand and know, were men of high character and we loved them.

10:07

So that was that. Yeah, OK. And when did your when did your relationship with Morris end?

10:16

Basically, where your relationship with Morris and or Gateway? When did that come to an end? Well, my relationship with Robert transformed dynamically when he left

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Shady Grove. And he left in 1999 and then he would later plant

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Gateway Church on Easter Sunday of 2000. And so when he left, it was under much angst.

10:39

There was a lot of fighting and bitterness. Because he had been promised the pastorate of Shady Grove Church, Olin Griffin, who was then the senior pastor, promised it to him.

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He had for years, actually, in fact, and I knew that. I knew that for sure.

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But he eventually under pressure. Gave his gave the church to his son in law.

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Gary Benjamin, who became senior pastor and my boss.

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And so I I did reach out to Robert once once the church was going.

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And I had I just talked to him. I had some questions about nothing related to doctrine or anything.

11:22

It was just friendly. And I got castigated pretty badly for that when my pastor found out when

11:28

Gary Benjamin found out. So yeah, I was clearly instructed.

11:33

Don't talk to him. Wow. OK, so Robert Morris was very protected.

11:39

It's not not something you could go to go to him with theological concerns or even a correction or rebuke or something like that.

11:48

No, very. Yeah, my pastor didn't want me going and talking to him because he didn't want me going over to Gateway.

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He didn't want me to get a job at Gateway and go over there because that's what he suspected would happen because I've been friends with Robert, loved him.

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It's just like, you know. Seemed like a natural place, but didn't feel the trust to do that.

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And I couldn't explain it. I know another one of the elders that served with me named Bill literally told

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Robert to his face, I don't trust you. You take that for whatever it's worth.

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But there was. It's just always a lot of pride. I know it's easy to say in the background that you saw pride in somebody looking backwards.

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I probably couldn't voice it. Probably because I was blinded by my own. I don't know if there was a more prideful man at that church than me.

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So just going to tell you that. It turns out there was.

12:54

Yeah, for sure. For sure. So I guess that leads us into the subject matter at hand.

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Cindy Clemishire came forward a few days ago. June, I believe this made news on June the 14th.

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So just a few days ago. Yeah, we're recording this on the afternoon of June 18th. So tell me you texted me when this broke.

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Tell me what were your thoughts when you saw this and just take it away, brother.

13:27

Well, yeah, my thoughts were a mix of horror. Disappointment and rage.

13:35

So, you know, I've loved Robert all these years. That's a true statement.

13:41

I went to work for Gateway 13 years ago and worked there for three years and began looking to leave almost immediately.

13:53

We were in our first six months there when he had Glenn Beck get on the platform during weekend services and give a

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Mormon testimony of a Mormon baptism. I'm going to share with you in just a moment.

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Before I do, I told you last evening Glenn Beck is here. And I've met with Glenn on a couple of occasions.

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Let me just say that this man has a love for God that is so evident when you get to spend some time with him.

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So it's very difficult. You're in a certain ecosystem of churches and you don't really know what's out there and where would you go?

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And so my resignation came down to conscience.

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I knew there was immorality at Gateway. I called it. I brought it to leadership. There was one of the leaders that were having sex with women.

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He was a single man, but he was seducing women and he was on staff. He was not a pastor, but he had a lead security position and he could leverage that.

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And so I left there with a broken heart. I was under promotion in my position and financially and just couldn't do it.

15:13

So we decided we would do whatever we had to do to leave. So we thought that was behind us.

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I've prayed for him and thought about him the past 10 years. I can honestly say we love him and love

15:33

Debbie and love Josh and James and Ethan. His son -in -law and I love

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Elaine and those kids know that. I believe they know that. And so when

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I heard this, it was an impact that you have to take in mind.

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I was 21. I'm 57 now. It felt a sense of betrayal.

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I felt like I wanted to go find the victim and hug her and tell her to come to Sherman Revival with us and let us do anything for her.

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And I battled immediately, probably do still some thoughts of what

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I want to do to Robert. Yeah. My heart broke and rage would probably sum it up.

16:26

It was not fit to probably come on the program just a couple of days ago. Right.

16:33

Yeah. We knew. We knew he had had an affair. This was not a secret. Right. He had been open about his past sexual immorality saying that he was...

16:47

I watched a video of him from about 10 years ago saying that he was admitting that he, when he was much younger, used to...

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In his words, even I think as a paraphrase, but he knew how to recognize girls who didn't have a strong father in the home or a loving father.

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And he somehow learned to recognize girls like that. And so he would pursue them.

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That's what makes it so disarming. Right. Because a man who's confessing what he used to do like that, you tend to say, okay.

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And even at Shady Grove, I knew he had been removed from ministry and that James Robison brought him to Shady Grove Church and basically dropped him off on the doorstep with Olin Griffin for him to go through some kind of restoration.

17:37

So what you naturally assume is they've researched this thing. They know what they're doing. It never entered my mind that he was, in fact, a pedophile.

17:49

This man held my son as an infant when he was dedicated at Shady Grove Church. Right.

17:56

Once you think about that. Right. And so,

18:03

Steve, when you say he was a pedophile, just in case someone's watching and they don't know all of the details.

18:10

So walk us through the timeline here. So Cindy Klemenshire, when this happened, now the elders, in fact,

18:21

I'm going to read it here. The elders of Gateway Church put out a statement initially, like two days ago.

18:28

And they said, it's from the elders of Gateway Church. Pastor Robert has been open and forthright about a moral failure he had over 35 years ago when he was in his 20s and prior to him starting

18:42

Gateway Church. He has shared publicly from the pulpit the proper biblical steps he took in his lengthy restoration process.

18:49

This two -year restoration process was closely administered by the elders at Shady Grove Church and included him stepping out of the ministry during that period while receiving professional counseling and freedom ministry, freedom ministry counseling.

19:04

Since the resolution of this 35 -year -old matter, there have been no other moral failures. And Robert Morris has walked in purity.

19:11

And in a statement from Morris himself, in this statement from the elders, Morris said, when

19:18

I was in my early 20s, I was involved in inappropriate sexual behavior with a young lady in a home where I was staying.

19:29

A young lady? Walk us through the timeline here. Yeah. She's no young lady.

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And she was not a young lady then. And part of her was fundamentally broken because she was a little girl.

19:46

And she's lived with this all these years. She was 12. She was in fact, 12 years old.

19:52

Cindy was born in 1970. Okay. Robert was born in 1961.

20:02

Okay. And so he was born in July, in fact, 1961. In case you don't, you'll want to remember that it actually matters.

20:13

And so when she was first molested by him, it was

20:20

Christmas day, Christmas night of 1982. Okay.

20:26

So Robert, Robert was 21 years old. And Mary was 12 years old.

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Robert had been married since he was 19 and he had his first son named Josh. So he has, he's a, he's a married man.

20:41

He has a son and he's traveling in ministry. Right. And so when he molested a 12 year old of a friend of his, as he was ministering at his church, yeah, that's not a young lady.

21:00

Yeah. That's a child. Now, three of my four children who I've raised are girls.

21:06

I raised three daughters. Yeah. And if you would have touched one of my daughters, and he did far more than touch.

21:17

Yes. He molested her. This is rape. That's what this is. This is full blown molestation.

21:23

Call it what it is. I have great issue with that statement that he gave. It proves that he's not repentant.

21:30

He never was. And by the way, he never stepped out of ministry. He was removed. He was not doing something inappropriate.

21:40

Inappropriate is if I, if I'm invited, let's say I'm invited to a black tie dinner and where I should have a tuxedo on.

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And I show up in one of my comfy t -shirts that I wear around the house. Now that's inappropriate.

21:53

Right. And people would think, oh, that's tacky. That's inappropriate. Right. Raping a child is not inappropriate.

22:00

That's right. It's a crime. That's right. That is criminal. Yeah. And he hid that fact, which is the key fact.

22:11

Right. The second only to the fact that she's a child was that he did not stumble or what did he have?

22:18

A failure. Yeah. He wasn't involved. Involved means it was consensual.

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There were people, you know, I can be involved in a bowling league. No, you committed a crime.

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Right. And, and you did this to her, a child. Right. And when he did it, it was not inappropriate.

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You, you, you stole her. Yeah. And you did it for four and a half years.

22:47

Right. So the timeline, the timeline here is interesting and I know the media is getting it wrong. So let me horse's mouth it for you because the way it works is

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Robert molested her for the very first time on, on Christmas day of 1982.

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He was 21. She was 12. Okay. Christmas day. Now Christmas day is at the end of the year, obviously.

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This went on for four and a half years. So if you go from 1982, we'll call that the end of the year,

23:20

Christmas day. If you go half a year, you get to Robert's birthday, which would have been him turning 22.

23:28

Yeah. That would have been 1983. Right. Now, if you add four years to 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, it would be the summer of 1987 when

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Robert would be removed from ministry. Cindy was 16. Okay. She's 16 when it ends actually close to 17.

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I don't know if she had made, had the birthday yet or not. I don't know the exact date. I only know the year she was born by deduction.

23:56

Okay. So that summer, her birthday might've fallen in somewhere between the summer and Christmas. Sure. Yeah. Okay. So four and a half years later, he's 26.

24:07

Um, and because he was 21, four years landing on his birthday, that would have started the fifth year, which he didn't quite make it.

24:18

He was removed from ministry and he was given a two year process of restoration. Okay. Now let's assume that he was still 26.

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That means when he's done with the process of restoration, whatever that means.

24:33

Right. Yeah. He's 28. Right. So he's 28, 28.

24:40

He was removed from ministry at 26. That's two years. Robert was made an elder at Shady Grove church when he was 29.

24:53

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. So he was three years since being caught molesting a girl three years.

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And he's made an elder, an elder of an eldership. And he was made an elder in 1990. Yeah. That would have oversight over me and my family.

25:13

Right. My soon to be wife, my soon to be kids. He would have eldership over, over us.

25:20

Right. And we took that very seriously. Hebrews 13 is very clear honoring the word.

25:26

We're going to submit to our leaders. Yeah. Unless it's illegal, immoral, unethical or unbiblical. Right. That's the way it is.

25:33

Yeah. And, and what I'm saying is he was molesting a child for four and a half years.

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And after that ended in only three years, he's an elder. Right. And I, and so what

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I'm saying now, I now know he's resigned. He resigned from Gateway church.

25:52

Yeah. We learned that. That statement never says he repented. Right. Because he has not repented.

25:58

Right. When you repent, you don't try to obfuscate. You don't try to hide. You don't, you don't give titles like he did to me about her.

26:06

He said she was flirtatious. She had a Jezebel spirit. She was a seductress. And he told me that the girl he had, the young lady had been involved in.

26:16

Threatened him. That the reason why he had to, he had to keep doing it was because she threatened him. Now I never knew how long it went on.

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He said it wasn't a one -time thing. But that she threatened him saying if you, that if he were to stop, she would tell, she'd turn him in or whatever.

26:31

Just she'd tell him. So he, he made himself a victim in that.

26:38

That he's not of that. That is incomprehensible to me.

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I mean, I don't want people to miss that. So he, he made it sound like it was just a,

26:49

I mean, a 12 year old child is not a young lady. In fact, in this article, she's quoted

26:57

Cindy, Cindy Klemenshire. She says, I was 12 years old. I was a little girl, very innocent, little girl.

27:03

And he was brought into our home. He and his wife, Debbie and their little boy, Josh, trusted and preached at the church that my dad helped start.

27:11

Cindy even remembers, Steve, what she was wearing on that first night,

27:18

Christmas night, 1982, she was wearing pink pajamas with bloomer pants and a snap up robe on.

27:28

I mean, pink pajamas and bloomer pants. I mean, that's exactly how you would expect a little girl to be dressed.

27:37

You tell my little girls to dress. Right. And, and this, you said a minute ago that this was rape.

27:47

It was, this was rape. Rape. Yeah. This was rape. There was penetration.

27:53

She made that very clear. Right. It was, it was digital. They would say court, but nevertheless.

27:59

Right. Right. And then in his, in Robert Morris's explanation of his inappropriate sexual behavior, he actually says that he blames it on a

28:13

Jezebel spirit. Yeah. There were many such statements. Yeah. Again, she was flirtatious, flirtatious, manipulative.

28:23

Um, there were a few Jezebel, um, that was the common mantra was that he had been victimized that he had stumbled.

28:35

Yeah. Okay. Oops. And he was the victim. But then now that there was this sin trap with this wicked woman, he falls into it.

28:46

And like a Venus fly trap, she shuts over on him because he's so irresistible and good looking or so,

28:52

I guess. And, and she just has to have him and she's drawn to the anointing and, and, and therefore he's, he's trapped.

29:03

Okay. So then it's my, it's my conviction that most of the shady grove elders were fed this lie.

29:12

At least all of the later ones like myself, um, I was ordained. Uh, I became an elder 10 years after him and in the year following his exit.

29:23

Okay. Yeah. But I know, I think I know enough of the character of the men barring at least three, perhaps four.

29:32

And I know there are men that knew, I know Olin knew, I know James Robinson knew,

29:37

I know they knew. Okay. And Olin was a former, uh, state trooper. He knew the law.

29:44

Um, I cannot imagine that he did anything without his right -hand Monty Smith knowing. And I know for a fact,

29:51

James Robinson knew because they are the ones that met with the family. They met with Cindy. They met with her parents.

29:57

They actually knew. And they did not report this crime to the proper authorities, which is the police department.

30:03

These are not things that need to happen inside of a church. If we, if it's

30:08

Sherman Bible, if we even have a suspicion, the issues can be resolved. And a police officer is brought in that that's what that has to be.

30:18

And all we've ever had have been suspicions of this is inappropriate behavior. And by inappropriate,

30:23

I mean, this is a man who seems to be, uh, hanging around the children's desk as during check -in.

30:31

So we, we take seriously running them off and that's been a successful venture so far, but, but there's no way that stays in house.

30:40

What you do is you bring that out. You let the proper authorities deal with it. And if that would have happened, think about it.

30:50

Yeah. Cindy, Cindy would not have had to watch for the next 35 odd years while this man soars into financial and popular success, sitting with presidents, talking with all kinds of political leaders, being on television with his own book deals.

31:05

She would never have to see that because he could have been in jail where he belongs. Right. But Olin Griffin and James Robinson facilitated every single thing you see after the fact of the crime, they never told us as elders, they let us serve with him.

31:24

They never let us know what the truth was. And so I know we see, I know we see Robert's resignation.

31:29

Now, where is James's admission of guilt? And where is Olin Griffin's admission of guilt? Because they are, they are complicit.

31:36

They were the facilitators and they know it. Right. They knew that this was not this, you're

31:43

James Robinson. I mean, he's one of the most well -known and well -respected names in, in the charismatic world, really in the evangelical world.

31:51

I mean, he's got, he's got friends, whether they're charismatic or not, you know, he's, he's well - Sad but true.

31:56

Sad but true. Sad but true. Right. So he knew, James Robinson knew this was not, this was, this was not a college student.

32:04

Okay. No, this was not a co -ed. This was nothing like that. And it was not a one -time thing.

32:10

It was four and a half years. Four and a half years. Yeah.

32:15

A quarter of her life at the time that it stopped, a quarter of her life.

32:23

Unbelievable. And if you're okay with that, to put a man into restoration and call it after two years, which

32:29

I can guarantee you, this was a joke. Yeah. How do I know? How do you know it was a joke?

32:35

Stephen, how do you know it was a joke? Because he didn't repent. Because he never came clean.

32:41

He would have turned himself in. He would have made restitution. He would have supported her financially when she was in need later on in life in 2005.

32:50

My gosh, you want a non -disclosure agreement. He's always covering himself.

32:55

And let me tell you this, Debbie knew it too. Debbie, his wife. Debbie, his wife, who later called the child who was,

33:04

I believe, 17 at the time. And Debbie told Cindy, who was 17 at the time, quote, I forgive you.

33:11

That's unconscionable. The only reason I'm not acting more surprised is because you told me about this before we started recording, so I...

33:20

Right, right. But that is incomprehensible that she told the victim,

33:30

Cindy Clemishire, I forgive you, as if she did anything wrong. But keep in mind, and I've told you this,

33:38

Justin, on other occasions, and I'll say it to the world right now, Robert is a master communicator.

33:46

In case you didn't know, he's the best communicator I've ever heard.

33:52

Yeah. He can be very winsome, affable. Right. And he is a master manipulator.

33:59

Right. And to think that he would have had a problem manipulating the wife who loves him.

34:05

I think that's exactly what happened. I think he manipulated her.

34:11

And I'm not saying that's enough. That's not okay. That's not an excuse.

34:16

Right. That's still what's at play. She's complicit, though. And so it was, again, what I said is

34:22

James Robison and Olin Griffin. And Olin Griffin, by the way, is still a, quote, apostolic elder at Gateway Church, even after Robert has resigned.

34:34

So anyone who's at Gateway Church, if you're at Gateway Church and you're watching this, let me say this to you.

34:40

The man who facilitated the pedophile pastor that you've been sitting underneath, that's now been brought out into the light and who has resigned in shame, the man who is complicit in that is

34:52

Olin Griffin. He knows. He knew. He's not stupid. He had to have known.

34:57

He was the man who was getting the whole story. He was there with the family. Wow. So this is not over.

35:06

Yeah. This is not over. If there are, in fact, 100 ,000 people sitting under that mess, which doctrinally it's always been.

35:15

Right. If there are 100 ,000 people sitting under that who can't see through the doctrine, hopefully they can at least see through the character and say, this is not something

35:22

I want to put my family under. Yeah. I would flee that place like Sodom and Gomorrah.

35:28

Amen. Amen. And Justin, you know me.

35:34

I was not going to come out and say these things. I was willing to come on the program and talk doctrine.

35:41

I had no desire or intention to go after Robert.

35:47

I'm not trying to gig him. I'm trying to say this. He is a pathological liar and he is a narcissist, a sociopath to rape a child for four and a half years and find a way to blame her and minimize it.

35:59

Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And you knew beforehand that Robert Morris was a liar and he was a narcissist and had huge pride issues.

36:10

I mean, these things you knew before, but all of this stuff, this is just coming to light and this is news to all of us, you included.

36:20

Yes. I would say this too. And I would assume to be able to defend some of the staff at Gateway Church who

36:33

I had great experiences with, complete doctrinal differences, but great experiences with who

36:40

I believe are actual brothers and sisters in Christ. I think they've been deceived. Yeah.

36:46

And I believe that they would have. In fact, one executive that I served with, Gunnar Johnson, I believe that I'm saying his name right.

36:55

But he posted on Facebook, if he would have known this, I think he quit being an exec in 2017.

37:01

You can fact check that. And he said, I would have quit immediately. I would have done the same thing, except I would have wanted to lay hands on Robert, then call the police, and then

37:11

I would need to resign. But there's no way. Right. If this had been the case, if this had been understood.

37:19

Right. There's no way. Right. And so all of those who knew they need to come out.

37:26

Yeah, they certainly do. If they're repentant, they will. Blessed is a man who is not condemned by what he approves,

37:33

Romans 14, 22. And knowing this and remaining silent about it for all these years, you're complicit, right?

37:43

Absolutely, you're complicit. You have forwarded the agenda that the enemy had through this man and took it to every single level of greater and greater visibility, greater and greater influence, to the point that he allowed him to get up as high as he possibly could.

38:03

And now he falls. And to unbelievers, Christ is blemished in this, in their eyes.

38:10

And Christians look like this is what we do. Christians and pastors look like this is what we approve.

38:17

And so I'm sad to say it, in title, they're right. Yeah. Because here's the famous one yet again.

38:25

Yeah. And it becomes clear who he actually is. Right. It's a shame on the church at large.

38:34

Absolutely. I don't believe that's a real church. I don't believe it's a real eldership. I'm happy to say that publicly.

38:39

Their doctrine is false. Right. It's prosperity. And their pneumatology is completely charismatic and wackadoodle.

38:47

They endorse and import every single kook out there. Yep. Todd White included.

38:55

Oh, yeah. Todd White is the low -hanging fruit. Yeah. Bill Johnson. Bill Johnson. Joel Osteen.

39:02

Yeah. Kenneth Copeland, any of those people. Yeah. And every female, including Joyce Meyer, Beth Moore, you name it.

39:08

Right. You can't throw a stick without hitting a heretic in that place. Right. Right.

39:16

But I think true sheep can be deceived. They can. As sad as that is.

39:21

But I believe the Holy Spirit will open their eyes. And I think they can see it clearly. His life and his doctrine. He's not just disqualified.

39:28

He's a criminal. He is. Yeah. He's a criminal. This is not your run -of -the -mill, quote -unquote, moral failing that we hear so often.

39:38

No. This is rape of a child. I know of one instance that I read about of a woman.

39:46

And this was she went to, I don't remember the year, but she had concerns.

39:54

It was around the 2005 when Cindy did approach Robert saying, I want help with therapy. Now, by the way, when she did that,

40:02

Robert talked to me about it. And he said she came and she was trying to blackmail him for $2 million.

40:11

That is, in fact, what he told me. Okay. So, okay. So I want to say this.

40:16

So Cindy Clementshire, the victim here, said that she wanted help from financial help from Robert Morris for her therapy, for therapy.

40:25

I believe she asked for $50 ,000. That's what I'm quoting. Cindy, Cindy, if you listen to this, I'm very sorry.

40:31

But that's just to my recollection. And I'm pretty certain. And they offered her $25 ,000 because Gateway doesn't have hundreds of millions of dollars.

40:42

But she had to sign a non -disclosure agreement. And to her credit, and honestly, to the credit of women who maybe will hear this story and pastors and wolves that will hear this story.

40:57

And maybe it will give them pause to not touch another daughter. Yeah. She refused it.

41:06

Wow. She refused the $25 ,000. Yeah. Wow. And I was going to tell you this around that time, that's when

41:15

Robert decided to come out and talk about it publicly. All he was doing was damaging. He was trying to head her off where she couldn't bring anything.

41:23

So that is, you're saying that it was about that time that Robert started talking about his previous -

41:32

That's correct. Interesting. That's when he actually brought that up and he went to the church.

41:37

He wanted the church to know. So he said, the Shady Grove knew this. The elders knew this. I have the past.

41:43

I told you that. I had a moral failure or whatever. I forget how he worded it. Somehow he looks like a hero because he loves

41:51

Debbie and he probably fake cried. But there was a woman in the congregation at Gateway.

42:00

And I saw this. She talked about it on social media and it had the ring of truth because I know this because of who she went to.

42:06

She went to the pastors and she had a meeting with Tom Lane, who was then the executive senior pastor.

42:16

And his son is now the executive senior pastor, Todd Lane. She met with Tom Lane and David Smith.

42:22

And they gave her the exact same company line that this was a young lady and they told her, you can look it up online, and they never mentioned her age.

42:35

They never mentioned the length of this rape. They didn't mention those things.

42:42

And in fact, years later, David Smith would be fired from Gateway for having a sexual affair.

42:49

I don't believe that was with a child, but it never crosses my mind to ask those things. I always will now.

42:55

I'll always ask, what was the age of this person? So I know for sure they were covering it up, but I don't know for sure if Tom Lane knew the age.

43:09

But Tom Lane did know about the gentleman that I brought to him who was on staff.

43:15

His name was Steve. He was over security. And who Tom told me, go tell him. He didn't know who it was when

43:21

I told him the details that he was on his third girl that he was sleeping with. He said, go tell him he's fired.

43:27

He didn't know who it was. I went and told the man he was fired and the man laughed in my face. The next day

43:33

I'm called into Tom's office and Tom is repenting to me, speaking too soon. And they're not going to fire the man.

43:41

Instead, he's going to go through some over closer oversight. Yeah. Yeah.

43:47

Wow. And that was the last straw for me. Right. Plus, I had a boss then that was unconscionable.

43:55

So it was time to go. I mean, there's so many facets to this that are so troubling.

44:06

I mean, not the least of which that the timeline you gave us from the time it was discovered about his sexual immorality, even within three years.

44:21

He went from that in just three years. He's an elder. He's an elder.

44:27

And he's preaching it. And he's preaching. He's preaching a shady group of church. And Steve, this is something, sadly, you and I have seen this over and over and over in the charismatic movement.

44:36

It's just an inconvenient truth for them that when one of their big name preachers is exposed or admits or is exposed to having some kind of sexual immorality, whatever the nature of it is, they may get out of the preaching saddle for a little while.

44:55

But in a very short amount of time, they're right back in it. Oh, it's a revolving door.

45:01

You could call it recidivism because that's quite frankly what it is. They go right back into the population and they can do it again.

45:10

It's no different than the Catholic priests who've been pulling that off for centuries. Yes, that's right.

45:17

No different at all. That's right. When you let them get this restoration process without even facing the legal consequences.

45:26

Right. That's right. He went from having her in his car and about three to three and a half years later to being, like you said, an elder.

45:39

And one of the things that gets missed is you never hear about the victim being restored. I haven't heard anything about Cindy being restored.

45:46

Why wasn't Cindy restored? Yeah. So what I'd call Robert Morris to do, if he is repentant, and I don't believe he is, you have resigned your church now in repentance.

45:59

Get out of ministry forever. Give your huge fortune of over $100 million to your victim whose life you damaged.

46:07

She probably wouldn't even take it from what I understand and what I've watched about her. She could give it away to good causes, certain places where they could help women who have been damaged.

46:16

They could use that money. Yeah. Turn yourself into the South Lake Police Department and do your time.

46:23

There is no statute of limitations that I know of in Texas. Now, most of it happened in Homily, in Oklahoma, but much of it happened in Texas.

46:33

And I hope there's a prosecutor worth his salt to check it out.

46:41

And Olin should do the same thing. Olin, you did this. Repent. Bring forth the fruit of repentance.

46:47

You knew it was a child. You knew it was four and a half years. And then you put this man back into ministry.

46:52

You sat him up over my family and hundreds of other people that I loved then and still do.

47:00

Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, you mentioned bearing fruit in keeping with repentance.

47:07

Real repentance bears real fruit. That's right. Tangible fruit. Luke 19, Zacchaeus kind of fruit.

47:14

That's right. And this is something else, Steve, it just crossed my mind.

47:19

You told me this before we started recording. Uh, going back to the timeline here, you know, this did not happen before Robert Morris claims he got saved.

47:31

So that's a great point. Okay. So yeah. Yeah. I'll speak to that.

47:38

So there's a famous message that every Shady Grover will remember.

47:43

And probably every gateway person will remember. And it's called Jake's Motel Room 12.

47:51

Okay. It's a, it's a masterpiece as far as the sermon goes. Now, not exegetically, don't get me wrong, but it's a masterpiece of communication of humor.

48:01

Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a dumpster fire of theology. Right. But Robert was a traveling evangelist, 17 and 18 years old, who claims that, uh, he was in what he called a no star motel,

48:18

Jake's Motel. He's in room 12. He tells the story. He did a series on it at gateway.

48:24

And he told this story and it is in fact a story. It's a lie. He's in Jake's Motel room 12 when he finally gets saved.

48:33

That he was 19 years old when he did that. Now that's one story. Now here's another message that he used to preach.

48:40

And it was basically, when is the change? When did the change happen? That was the emphasis of the whole message.

48:46

And his message was this, you know, you got saved when the change in your life happens. Now that has a ring of truth.

48:54

Absolutely. Yeah, sure. Because he said, I knew I got saved in Jake's Motel room 12 because my life changed.

49:00

That's when everything changed. Okay. Well, two years later is when he began to molest a 12 year old girl as a married man with a son and, and, and molesting her in his friend's house, a pastor friend's house, who he's there to preach for.

49:22

So was it one time? No, it was ongoing headlong and repented for four and a half years.

49:29

He did not quit. He got caught. Right. She told, and he got called out.

49:36

Right. Right. That's, I don't know what

49:42

Jake's Motel room 12. Yeah. Maybe there isn't even one.

49:48

Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? Yeah. Whether or not that Jake's Motel room exists, who knows?

49:54

But it's quite obvious that he was not changed. Well, if he was, what was he before?

50:02

I mean, I mean, yeah, you, you, you, yeah. You don't become a Christian and then two years later, rape a child.

50:12

No, that's not where I see in scripture at all. You just don't see that. No, sorry. No. When you bring the text to bear what we understand from scripture, that when someone's in Christ, they're a new creation.

50:22

Old things have passed away and new things have come. Now that does not speak of sinless perfection. We all stumble.

50:28

We all struggle. You struggle. I struggle. We stumble. We repent and we believe the gospel.

50:34

But what we don't do is walk in a pattern of unrepentant habitual sin that we hide.

50:40

Yeah. We try to make excuses for and pass blame on others for. And I can honestly tell you this in the eyes of the people who knew that he had had those affairs who were not

50:51

Olin, Debbie and James Robinson. Yeah. In the, in those eyes, in the eyes of everyone else, or at least most,

51:00

I would believe. He made her the, he made her the perpetrator and he, the victim.

51:06

Yeah, that's right. I don't know that a Christian does that. I know that they don't. That's not repentance.

51:11

Repentance is true brokenness. I did this. I mean, I've had to do this. I've had to do this in public settings.

51:17

I've had to go in front of the church and say, I've treated the elders wrong. I, I, I, I confess this.

51:23

I repent. Please forgive me. You know what? God is gracious.

51:28

And if Robert will repent now, even now there's mercy now, never ministry again.

51:36

Right now that I pray, he hears the gospel, the true gospel. Yeah. I know you share the gospel in every single time you do a video.

51:43

And thank you for that. I'm going to let you do that at the end. I'm not going to get in the way of that, but I'd make a personal appeal. Robert, if you hear this,

51:50

Jesus' blood is enough. Yes. Blood is enough, but you've got to come clean.

51:58

You need to repent of your sin truly to its depths and believe in the finished work of Jesus abandoned all your own righteousness.

52:05

You have none. His righteousness is enough. He became a curse for us so that we could become the righteousness of God in him.

52:12

2 Corinthians 5 21. Amen. And I pray that for him. I do. Yeah.

52:19

But I also pray that I pray that justice is done civilly because this is what it demands.

52:26

You're right. You're absolutely right. Well, Steve, you've shared with us what

52:33

Robert needs to do biblically. And you mentioned Owen as well.

52:39

James Robison. What would you like to see from James Robison? I would see the same thing.

52:45

I would say the same thing. Confess to the fact that you were complicit. Confess to the fact that you knew and you empowered it.

52:53

And then later on, you're there at the church and you're in his pulpit. You're having him on your program. You're benefiting from him financially, no doubt.

53:02

And you knew what he had truly done. And yet you were okay with it because you didn't take the proper steps.

53:10

You did not do what the law required. Yeah, that's right.

53:17

Repent. I'm calling him to repent. Now, I think James is probably too arrogant to even hear that.

53:25

But nevertheless, if he would, there's mercy. There's grace.

53:30

And that mercy and grace, we need to understand this in the church moving forward. I wish we could broadcast this to everybody.

53:37

Grace and mercy do not mean you're qualified to go back into ministry. Yeah, that's right.

53:43

That's right. Ministers are held to a higher standard. Yeah, it's, you know, in our theological circle,

53:51

Steve, you know, more soteriologically, that's doctrine of salvation, high view of God's sovereignty and salvation.

54:00

And, you know, if you're in ministry, if you're a pastor, if you're an elder or whatever, and it's not that our camp is, you know, it's not that we don't have sexual sin in our camp.

54:14

I mean, it happens. The difference, though, yeah, absolutely. But the difference, though, in our camp, if you commit,

54:24

I mean, you don't have to be to this degree, but just sexual immorality as a preacher, as an elder, you're out of the ministry.

54:33

Yeah, you're out of the ministry. You're out of the ministry. I mean, it doesn't mean you can't be forgiven. Doesn't mean you can't still be a member of a local church, but you're no longer behind the pulpit.

54:43

You're in front of the pulpit. Yeah, you're in front of the pulpit. That's it, which is a great place to be. Yeah, it's a great place to be.

54:51

Right. I'd encourage anybody who's seen this that knows that they're hiding something.

54:57

It feels good to be forgiven. And if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we get two huge benefits.

55:04

Number one, we have fellowship with one another. There's nothing more to hide. And the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from our sin.

55:11

That's a plea. And again, we all stumble. We all struggle. We're talking about headlong, unrepentant.

55:18

But then if somebody is going to be in a sexual affair, I hate even the term involved.

55:26

I don't even, I get caught up in the terms too. If they're going to have, if they're going to commit adultery, that is a resignation.

55:33

Right there. It needs to be resigned. It needs to be over. For the good of your soul, get out.

55:41

For the good of the people under you, get out. Yeah, for the good of your own soul, exactly. Your own soul. Yeah, because of the condemnation you're heaping upon yourself.

55:49

And you're using that term just now, kind of jogging my thinking, Steve. Resignation.

55:55

When you read this statement from Gateway Church that they just put up as of this recording a couple of hours ago, they said, we accepted,

56:06

I don't have it in front of me to verify, we accept Robert Morris's resignation. And when I read that,

56:11

I'm thinking, why wasn't he fired? Why was he not terminated exactly? Well, I mean, these are the men who've been under the false teaching and who have been under the manipulation.

56:26

And bottom line, they, you know, here's the irony. And many of those men

56:32

I could call out by name who claim to have prophetic gifts, they claim they can hear directly from God and they get immediate revelation.

56:42

Yes, God just didn't. Right. Where is your spiritual gift in this?

56:48

You didn't know he was a pedophile? Exactly. All these people. Yeah, isn't it though?

56:56

That's very odd. All these people, Kenneth Copeland, Todd White, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis, James Robinson, Joyce Meyer, Heidi Baker, Bill Johnson, you know,

57:09

Joseph Prince, on and on and on and on. And, you know, I hate, even

57:15

Michael Brown, you know. Absolutely Michael Brown. Michael Brown is the one that, well, yeah.

57:24

Yeah, no, it's all other. But Michael and all of these, all of these big name charismatics and Sam Storms, you know, and I'm not saying

57:35

Sam Storms is complicit in it, but these all, all of these people claim that God speaks to them.

57:42

God gives them words of knowledge. Well, Michael Brown, Michael Brown and Michael Brown and Sam Storms, weren't they sitting in front of you, defending

57:53

Mike Bickle, telling you what a great guy he was? Yes, look, Sam Storms said, I know

57:58

Mike Bickle to his core. Mike Bickle is probably my best friend in this world. I was in a small group with him and his wife for seven years on his staff as a senior associate, involved at IHOP for an additional four years, 11 years.

58:11

I know this man to the depths of his soul. I can't think of more biblically orthodox, humble,

58:18

Christ exalting individual. Yeah, he's saying his praises, you know,

58:25

I mean, to listen to Sam Storms talking about Mike Bickle, Mike Bickle is, you know, just a hair short of the second coming.

58:35

I mean, so they have no, they have no prophetic praise, nor do they have any discernment. Right, right.

58:42

So got it. And Sam Storms said, if you're not seeking out these charismatic gifts, you know, prophesying and words of knowledge, if you're not seeking that out, you're sinning, he says.

58:53

And yet he was close personal friends with Mike Bickle, served with him for years, nay decades in ministry, knows him to his core.

59:07

And yet God and claims that God speaks to him. Why did God not give him a heads up about his close best friend, ministry partner,

59:19

Mike Bickle, who was a sexual predator? Right, because it's not true. Yeah.

59:25

It's just not true. Yeah. It's fictional. And yeah,

59:33

God does what he spoke it, he breathed it out. He wrote it down in his word and the Holy Spirit ministers that word. Right.

59:39

But the immediate revelation, the insights. No. What good is it if God gives you a word of knowledge about somebody's bum toe out there in your audience, and God does not bother to give you a word of knowledge about your personal friend in ministry, one of the biggest names in the charismatic movement, who is also, oh, by the way, a sexual predator.

59:59

Yeah. Please. Yeah, it could have been helpful. It seems like Jesus would be a whole lot more concerned with the purity of his church, which he is building.

01:00:09

And he wants his church. He made his church the way he wants it. He wants his church the way he made it. Yeah. When you read the book of Acts, those games were not being played.

01:00:17

And when they were, in some cases, obviously, they were corrected severely. Yeah. That's right.

01:00:24

Thank God for Jesus. Thank God for the cross. Thank God for mercy. Thank God for grace. Yeah. But we can't lower the standard from what the

01:00:33

Bible holds up. And unfortunately, that's been the pain in this woman's life,

01:00:40

Cindy. Right. Having to watch that. And our prayers for her complete restoration and healing.

01:00:46

Although seeing her talk, I feel like the Lord's done a lot. And I would just tell you this on behalf of the elders at Sherman Bible, she's welcome with us for anything she needs.

01:00:58

Counseling, any kind of help like that, very safe place for that.

01:01:05

Yeah. I would say that for her. And I know there's other churches, too.

01:01:10

So praise God that there is the body of Christ. I don't know how well she could trust, though.

01:01:16

I would assume that that's beyond difficult. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

01:01:22

I can't imagine. I can't imagine. Steve, as we wrap up here, you've expressed your concern for Cindy Clemishire.

01:01:33

And you and I talked about this before we started recording. But we also have a concern for all of the people.

01:01:41

Gateway Church, with all of its branches and all. This is

01:01:46

Joel Osteen used to have the largest, quote, unquote, church. Quote, unquote, church.

01:01:51

Quote, unquote, right. And now Gateway, quote, unquote, church is the largest church in the country.

01:01:58

People don't, I think a lot of people don't realize this. You told me before that you think Robert Morris is the most dangerous man in the evangelical world because he's not as flashy and flamboyant as a

01:02:12

Kenneth Copeland. You know, he's not blowing away COVID and all this kind of. Exactly. You know, he's not as he's not as obvious.

01:02:20

But the fact that he comes across as more, you know, all shucks in that in many, even though he's got the same theology as Kenneth Copeland.

01:02:30

So it makes him it makes him all the more dangerous. But anyway, back to the people.

01:02:37

People have heard me say this before. I fully affirm that in these bad churches, these unbiblical churches, you have a smattering of very young, very immature sheep.

01:02:52

You have people who may be lost sheep who have not yet heard the voice of the shepherd and not yet come to true salvation.

01:02:59

And we have a concern for them as well. And I'm sure there will be a lot of gateway people watching this video right now.

01:03:07

What what is your message to them? You need to get your family to a church that has a high view of God, and you'll know they have a high view of God because they'll have a high view of scripture.

01:03:19

You'll know they have a high view of scripture because they will exposit the scripture. They'll they'll they'll uncover its original authorial intent.

01:03:27

They won't twist it. They won't twist parables around as Robert has to make you the treasure found in the field as he did that time.

01:03:36

They won't make it about you. You don't want to be in a church that's all about people.

01:03:45

That's right. Find a church that's expositing scripture. That's what I would say. Run from this.

01:03:51

It's flashiness and it's entertainment. Those things wear off. Yeah. When you're fed the word of God in truth, you actually grow spiritually.

01:04:00

You don't have to make it up anymore. You don't have to fake it anymore. You can truly live in the freedom of walking in the light of his word.

01:04:08

And so I'll tell you, for Southlake, it's easy. Countryside Bible is right up Highway 114.

01:04:15

Tom Pennington is one of the best teachers in this nation, probably in the world. Yeah, certainly.

01:04:21

He recovers from that heart attack. I tell you, they're even going to have that pulpit still covered with men who are qualified and diligent.

01:04:29

And you can go truly learn what the Holy Spirit's true work is, and that is to reveal Jesus Christ through the scripture.

01:04:38

Yes. Amen. Amen. Look for a church that is committed to expositional preaching, high view of God's sovereignty, led by biblically qualified men, elders, men, a church.

01:04:52

I'll add to that. I'll add this. Men that can boast in their weakness, who are not being, they're not the hero of their sermon.

01:05:00

They're not trying to wow you with their personal testimonies and stories and cause you to fall in after them.

01:05:08

That is not a eunuch. A pastor needs to be a eunuch where he can be trusted, a spiritual eunuch he can be trusted with the bride to where what he's doing is his goal is to take the bride and connect them through the scripture with the bridegroom, not to cause the church to follow after them and be the popular one.

01:05:29

Yeah. You don't need a hot dog and a superstar. You need a man of God with a plurality of eldership, plurality of elders that can hold that man accountable and hold each other accountable and walk uprightly.

01:05:45

And that's the way to walk through this life with Jesus and end well, abide in his word.

01:05:50

This is Robert's legacy now. I want to finish with one statement, Justin. I just thought of this.

01:05:58

I was in Robert's car one time riding with him out to his ranch and he told me this. He said the

01:06:03

Lord spoke to him and told him, this is the quote, I want to make you famous so that you can make me famous.

01:06:14

Wow. Well, he's famous.

01:06:20

He's more famous right now than he ever has been. Wow. But what that really was, was the lust of his own flesh and pastors that have a hankering for fame and fortune are not men that are ever going to have the sheep's best interest in mind.

01:06:37

I'll leave it with that. I love those people dearly. I do. We have people there that we still pray for.

01:06:44

They remained in our hearts for the past 10 years since we left. We've not entered back in and tried to be divisive.

01:06:52

We've not put things down and tried to, we've not done that. Yeah. But this was the bridge too far.

01:07:02

Right. Right. Indeed. Indeed.

01:07:08

Steve, I appreciate you, brother. I love you, Justin. I appreciate your ministry. I mean that.

01:07:14

I love you too, man. Great. I appreciate you. You've heard me say this before. I have a great deal of love and appreciation for all of our faithful shepherds out there.

01:07:25

And you're one of them. You're one of the good guys. And so I want to be that. I want to finish well.

01:07:31

And I pray that you do too. And thank you for what you're doing.

01:07:37

I hope this gets the attention that it deserves. In fact, of people understanding that there's an alternative.

01:07:46

Yes, there is. There are good churches out there. There are. You have to search, but there are.

01:07:52

You have to search. And they're not going to be the churches with the flashy stuff and the entertainment.

01:08:00

If that's what you're looking for, then you're really not looking for a church anyway. So you just want to scratch a religious itch, but you're not looking for a true church.

01:08:09

But the highest doxology you'll ever have is when you have the deepest theology. And to get that, you've got to dig the word out in its proper context and in its intent.

01:08:20

So I know I sound like a broken record, but that would be my heart is that that biblically sound churches would see a flood of people that want to come get the real thing.

01:08:29

Amen. Thank you, brother. And I'm happy to help. Again, I wish we didn't have to do it under these circumstances.

01:08:38

Yeah, same. Thank you, Steve. Appreciate you, brother. You're welcome, brother.

01:08:44

I love you, my friend. Say hi to Kathy and can't wait to talk to you again. All right. Same. All right. All right.