Jeremiah Nortier Vs Matthew Broderick Was Mary Sinless EP 187

The Gospel Truth Debate: Was Mary Sinless?

All right, thank you for joining me in this episode of the gospel truth. I'm your host Marlon Wilson. And once again, we have another debate another great debate was mary sinful sinless. Sorry was mary sinless.

We got another great one and I thank you for joining me today. As always I want to start off by encouraging a like and follow the gospel truth. Make sure you hit that like make sure you hit the subscribe.

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Um as always I have some announcements of shows that I have coming up in the future. That I want you to know about. All right coming up is purgatory a biblical concept. Dr. Michael brown. Actually, let me restart that.

Um, so this is the show before that. So coming up may 22nd is the calvinist view of election biblical that have stephen young versus isaac hensley. May 22nd at 4 p .m. Eastern standard time. 1 p .m. Pacific standard time.

After that, I have understanding morality. I have scarlet clay and shannon q. And they're coming on monday may 24th at 5 p .m. Pacific standard time. 8 p .m. Eastern standard time. After that, chris date.

Kevin thompson our theistic determinism and unconditional election biblical chris date. Once again, kevin thompson may 20 uh, may 25th at 5 p .m. Pacific standard time. 8 p .m. Eastern standard time. Then after that, like I said, dr. Michael brown and william Arvichette, I think I might have pronounced that wrong, but I let him correct me when he comes on june 1st Tuesday june 1st at 5 p .m. Pacific standard time.

8 p .m Eastern standard time. So once again, that is the next four shows on the gospel truth. If you have not liked the gospel truth yet or subscribe to the gospel truth I don't know what you are doing.

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All right, that said I have jeremiah nortier with me and I have matthew broderick both of these brothers been on before they've been on the show before and Um, jeremiah last night. Jeremiah was on he debated.

Uh, matt saly. All right, matt saly if you guys remember that debate that was a very good debate very fun debate. And I think we got a lot done in that debate. I think it was a great great interaction between him and matt and for the life of me I cannot remember who matthew I know matthew was on.

I cannot remember who matthew debated. I have to go search through my shows again to see where matthew who might debate but matthew is actually a patron of The gospel truth. So he's he's not only been on the platform.

Not only as he subscribed to the platform, but he's actually supporting the ministry financially through patreon. So I thank matthew. For that that's it. Let me bring these guys in so they can introduce themselves.

What's up, guys? How you doing? Hey, hey, it's good to see y 'all. Good good. Well, thank you. Excellent. Excellent. So glad you guys jumped back on to the gospel truth man to once again add another debate to This already heavy heavy debate channel.

So i'm excited for this one, man. Uh, once again, we're we're debating was mary sinless man. This is interesting catholic and protestant debate man. That's been going on for a very very long time, man.

So i'm interested to see what you guys have to say. I know there are a bunch of stuff I don't know and I know it's a bunch of stuff that the audience don't know. So hopefully you guys be able to shed some light on that information before we jump into that debate though.

Into this debate. Let me uh, allow you time to introduce yourselves, man. This is your opportunity to talk about your website blogs, whatever you do, man. Let them know start with jeremiah, man. Give a quick introduction yourself.

Hey everybody, my name is jeremiah nortier. Thank you marlon for allowing me to be back on this is my third time on the gospel truth. This is a wonderful platform to just articulate the gospel and to contend for the truth.

So, um, if you'd like to know more about me and where I serve, um, it's at 12 five church .com. That's the word 12 the number five church .com. And if you're in the area, uh northeast arkansas, we'd love for you to come and fellowship with us.

And so once again, I want to thank you marlon and matthew for this opportunity. And I want to give a shout out to my wife that allowed me to Do this in her living room. She's so gracious to me. And I also want to give a shout out to a couple of my friends that have just helped me.

Um think through and and pray for this debate, uh, my friend cameron vogelsang. Uh, I appreciate him just helping me out. And I just want to thank pastor nathan at 12 five church. Just your prayers and and helping get everything set up.

And I also want to thank my buddy robert boylan. Who is a mormon, but we have some things in common when it comes to this issue. So I want to thank him as well.

All right, cool. Cool. Thank you so much. Jeremiah for coming on once again the gospel truth. All right, matthew go over. Give a quick introduction yourself.

Sure, thank you. My name is matthew broderick and um like the actor I do get a lot of flack over that so. So, uh, but that's fine. I ended up changing my name to matthew. Jessica parker just get rid of all the but uh, I um, I I want to thank marlon for the opportunity.

I want to thank jeremiah for the opportunity and all those praying for both myself and jeremiah. And I want to thank all those. Uh. People i've learned from in a very special way william albrecht And robert fastigi and jerry maddox and robert st. Jenna's like so many great individuals that i've learned from and the early church fathers and just uh, I'd like to thank god for the opportunity.

Um, i'm in a little i'm in the little leagues when it comes to apologetics. I'm like, you know Little kid going to baseball he wants to you know, he sees uh, ricky henderson out there playing he wants to steal the base so, uh, but that's uh, so uh, i'm relatively new in terms of Doing the public i've been doing apologetics behind the screen for like 15 15 20 years now, but i'm not really uh, I haven't uh I haven't written any books or anything.

So I just i've had a few debates. But I want to just thank everybody for the opportunity To be here. Thank you.

Debate Format and Opening Statements

All right guys good stuff good stuff, thank you for the introduction. So now we're going to jump into this debate. All right. Once again, the topic of this debate was mary sinless jeremiah. You're arguably a negative and matthew.

Uh matthew broderick, you're arguably the affirmative in this debate. So we're going to start off with 15 minute opening statements. That's going to be followed by seven minute rebuttals. And then we'll have a 40 minute cross-examination.

The first 20 minutes will be 10 minutes each to ask questions and then the final 20 minutes will be more of an open discussion. Uh, then we're going to follow that with five minute closing and then some q a from the audience.

Sounds good. Yes. All right, matthew, you are arguing affirmative in this debate. So let me know when you're ready. And I will set your time and get it going man. Let me know when you're ready.

Uh, sure, um, i'm fine now.

All right, you got it for 15 minutes.

Broderick's Affirmative Case for Mary's Sinlessness

All right, thank you very much. Thank you. Um, like I said, thank you so much to jeremiah and tomorrow and to all those praying for both both of us. I I fell in love with holy scripture. I think first under the guidance of my mother.

Um, I lost my mother my father within the last four years. Sadly, i'm the youngest of eight children, but i've been so blessed. My father was one of the most generous. Funny kind-hearted people that i've ever met.

And my mother was just an angel. She truly was she had such a love for the written word of god. Um, she'd wake up every morning at six o 'clock. And before she went to daily mass to consume the flesh and blood of jesus christ.

The name above all names or new passover lamb before she went to daily mass. She would she would be enthralled in the word she would just I could just see that relationship that she had with with god through his word and through his um through his the lord's supper.

And it was just instrumental for me. And the reason I bring that up is because I loved I have such a love of the written word. That I recently had gotten a new bible. Um, and I was very excited and I didn't know where to put it.

I wanted to put it somewhere. That I knew it could be seen um. Um, but I also knew that I could see. By others but also by myself, but I wanted to have a very special place for it. And I before I I found a place that I really wanted to put the holy scripture on the new bible.

I made sure the table that I had that little high nightstand um. That little high nightstand, sorry. The little high nightstand. What I would do is I would I I cleaned everything off. I all the dust all the dirt all the impurities.

I saw a nice and clean record, but the holy. The holy word of god and I think the reason I bring that up is because tonight I think that's a very good summary. Of was mary sinless tonight. Because I think that's exactly from holy scriptures and the church fathers and and the catholic church.

Um, that's exactly what god did. Um with mary the mother of god Jesus being the written word and the eternal word. And the oral word through his 12 apostles seven of the apostles spoke god. Um, as it says in hebrews, uh submit to your leaders of the word of god that you have heard preached to you.

So that was all 12 apostles. So some wrote holy scriptures the word of god and seven of them taught the word of god orally. But jesus christ himself is the eternal word. So that eternal word. In mary before taking flesh in mary like that that mantle that nightstand everything was was removed the the dirt the impurities um.

So that god could dwell within. A pure a pure dwelling place if you look back at exodus 25. We know that god dwells everywhere. Heaven is thrown earth is footstools. Psalms say that jesus the king of kings says it.

Stephen says it god is god dwells everywhere. But in a very special way, he chose to dwell in the ark of the covenant. And god was very very specific about how the ark was to be designed. It was to be a pure dwelling place.

Why? It's be pure dwelling place because he was a dweller in a very special and pure pure way. And that pure dwelling was the holiest object in all of israel. As a matter of fact all of the world that holiest object was the ark of the covenant.

Of the ark of the lord and god was very specific about how it was designed because he was to dwell there. Now if we look at many of the church fathers um. They do notice with without a doubt the similarities that luke makes to second samuel between mary as the ark of the lord.

And um the mother of the lord and in second samuel the uh, the mother of the lord and the ark of the lord. In second samuel the ark of the lord travels the land of hebron. And luke one mary travels the land of hebron uh in second samuel um.

Uh mary, uh as she enters she comes a little closer. Elizabeth feels unworthy as the mother of the lord approaches her just as david felt. Unworthy as the ark of the lord approached him then after a certain trepidation.

Uh, there was joy. David danced for joy. Um at the as the ark of the lord approached him and john the baptist upon mary's greeting. It says upon luke upon mary's greeting, uh left for joy in the womb of the mother.

Both the ark of the lord remained in the region for three months in second samuel and mary remained in the regions for three months in in loop one, um both arcs. Were overshadowed by the glory of god.

Uh in exodus and both in luke the holy spirit god's glory overshadowed both the ark and the mother of the lord um. And again, we see in revelation 12 where john says I see a sign. A sign that's referenced back to isaiah uh, where the woman shall give birth to uh.

To a son whose name is emmanuel and revelation 12 sees the I see the ark of the covenant a woman clothed with the sun. Uh, she who is the the woman who gave birth to the male child born to rule the nations.

And mary is the the woman who gave birth to the male child born to rule the nations so as we know that. With god all things are possible. And without god nothing is possible. So mary, of course Is referenced back in genesis 3 where god Through the fall of adam and eve who through free will disobeyed.

They were swayed by satan his snares. They were swayed into falling for his trap. But god god is love god is mercy. Uh, the catholic mass has something beautiful, which I really love it says out of uh.

Out of love you created us in your juris in your justice. You condemned us, but in your mercy you redeemed us and that redemption takes place in the foretold redeemer Jesus christ the king of kings, but if you look in genesis 3 we can tell in a very special way that mary Along with her son are free from sin God by his very nature.

Jesus christ is free from sin. He's guiltless because he is god he's free from sin by his own very nature. Mary on the other hand was created as a pure dwelling place as the ark of the covenant was. It was god's doing.

God says I shall put enmity to satan between you. And the woman and between your offspring and hers. So the the woman is not eve because eve gave in to satan's snares, but we noticed that many even um Jewish rabbis any any jewish, um, and many of the church fathers knew that that was messianic prophecy.

The woman and her offspring and he shall crush thy head. So who was the woman? That's mary. That's why john, uh, john references and jesus speaks to his calls his mother woman. So often holy scripture woman because she's the foretold woman in genesis and she's at enmity with satan.

As is her offspring jesus christ, but mary's at enmity by the grace of god. Only by god's grace only by god's grace. Not by her own nature as jesus christ alone was but we know with god's grace all things are possible.

In titus 2 it says to the one. Um, the grace of god has appeared he who saves. And if we look in jude Verse 23 verse 24. It says to the one who has the power to keep us from falling. So god gave mary that power to keep her from falling.

That's why she was saluted by the archangel gabriel as being full of grace. Hail full of grace even before baptism, which removes sin. Acts 22 16 arise and wash away your sins be baptized. So that's when that's when one is full of grace.

Um after that through baptism by the the waters that were made pure. Uh by jesus who went into the baptist to be baptized by john. But if we look at uh, if we look at that, like I said, it's it's all god's doing but god himself specifically said that I will put enmity between you.

And the woman between her offspring and hers so it's not just the messiah the offspring of the woman. But it's the woman herself as well she's the one who Is is pure a pure dwelling place just as the ark of the covenant was in exodus 25 God chose to design her in a very special way.

Who am I that the um. Even elizabeth who was blameless before god and keeping the commandments. She felt unworthy who am I that the mother of my lord should come to me if we look at the book of song of solomon.

Uh chapter six, I believe it is it says one alone is my dove. One alone is my perfect one the dear one of her parents and they all saw her and called her blessed. And that's why mary says all generations shall call me blessed even in her humility.

She had to allow the holy spirit to proclaim what the truth was about her that all generations shall call her blessed. And that she is indeed full of grace full of grace before christ took flesh in her womb full of grace before baptism which removed sin because god.

Uh father son and holy spirit jesus christ who is yesterday today and forever along with his eternal father and spirit prepared Mary to be that pure Dwelling place to be the one that uh along with himself.

Um at enmity with satan jesus, of course by his very nature was was guiltless and uh was sinless. Um by his very nature as god, but as we see that every the grace has appeared. Um from from from christ who is god father son and holy spirit eternal forever and ever that grace.

If we cooperate with that grace, which mary did. Um, mary was obedient and elizabeth said blessed are you among women? And blessed is the fruit of your womb blessed is she who believed and blessed is she who obeyed.

So we all know that it's god. It's god. Who's the one who? Made the promise and he fulfilled it in in in in mary the foretold woman in genesis. Her and her offspring jesus christ, but like I said, it's as no one has ever taught.

No one will ever taught um. That mary, uh was sinless by by her very nature. That's jesus christ alone. Um, you know, we have one of the greatest. Um one of the greatest, uh. Of all time saint athanasius talks about mary.

Uh in such a way that is so profound i'll get to that in just a second. I know we can read scripture. Um and see a line. And say well that's that proves it that proves mary. Mary was sinful all have sinned and fall short for the glory of god all have sinned all must mean all.

But we know that's not necessarily the case because in romans 5 it says, uh by one man's act of righteousness. Um becomes justification for all men. So are all men saved by jesus uh, of course, they that that salvation is made possible by his once and perfect sacrifice, but all men have to freely choose to accept.

Uh the king and his his act of mercy. So we know that all men are not saved in the way paul was talking about it in romans um. And just as we know that not all have sinned. Um, jesus himself was an exception.

Um babies who die in the womb um. Who they have not sinned this paul was talking about original sin that was contracted. Uh romans, uh, When he talks about the we're guilty by nature children of wrath.

Um, that's the fallen nature, but we know that babies don't sin even in the womb. As a matter of fact, I think in romans 9 paul says of jacob and isu Esau sorry that they were um, they were born even before they ever did anything bad or good they were in the womb.

Before they did anything good or bad. So there's there's many exceptions and falls all all have sinned um. So, uh, and if we look at say none none are righteous not one not one righteous. We'll say that proves it too, but that doesn't necessarily prove it because in the book of matthew chapter one Saint joseph the husband of mary is called righteous.

He's called righteous. So it says not a righteous not one. But joseph is called righteous. Simeon in the temple is called righteous in luke. And I believe also in peter's letter. He calls lot righteous.

Um paul says it's obedience that leads to righteousness. It's it's when we cooperate with god's grace. He was the king of mercy who has provided that grace for us. But like adam and eve we can choose to to not cooperate with that grace.

Or we can choose to cooperate with that grace. If we look at some of the early church fathers some may say that they're not. It's not holy scripture but like in one sense like we do have holy scripture saying that god himself has put enmity between Satan and the woman between satan and her offspring.

So mary is at enmity. Along with her son, uh the woman she did not she won't doesn't give by being god putting that enmity she's not. Um giving in to satan's snares like like eve did she was full of grace.

Saint augustine the great church father saint augustine says with the exception of the holy virgin mary. Uh in regards to sin, um out of respect for the honor of the lord I choose not to speak. Knowing that the abundance of grace that god has given to her to overcome all sin.

Because through her who was worthy to be made the mother of him who himself obviously Is not sinful in any way. Saint ephraim says in you there is no stain. Oh god. Oh lord, nor there is there any stain in your mother?

Theodosius and some of these were written as early as 400s, uh 300s, but we also have Hippolytus in 217 um saying. Uh, they had preached the advent of god in the flesh in the world is advent by the spotless and god-bearing mary um.

Yeah, and we have theodosius saying mary was spotless untouched unsullied holy soul and body. Uh, like the lily among the thorns that's also a reference to song of solomon. Uh, but we have something about what I think is just an amazing thing from athanasius.

We'll try to sum it up sum it up pretty quickly for the rest of my time. It says athanasius says well noble virgin truly you are greater than any greatness. Oh dwelling place of the word to whom among all creatures shall I compare you you are greater than them all.

Oh ark of the new covenant flow with purity instead of gold. You are the ark which is filled with gold golden vessel containing the true man of jesus christ. Um, it says of angels and archangels that they are great, but you are greater than them all.

So in giving reference to mary as elizabeth said who am I that the mother of my lord should come to me. We're giving reverence to both god and his greatest masterpiece. Just like a painter would not be offended if you admire their painting and their work.

Elizabeth said who am I that the mother of my lord should come to me. It was in one sense giving greater glory to god the one who created this pure dwelling place for the most high the new ark of the covenant.

Mary most pure mary most holy.

Nortier's Protestant Case Against Mary's Sinlessness

All right. Thank you, uh matthew for that open statement. All right, jeremiah. You're up for your 15 minute opening. Let me know when you're ready and I will start your time. I'm good to go.

All right, you got it for 15 minutes. So protestants are often accused of being anti-mary and that's just simply not true. We love the biblical mary according to the word of god. Today I want to present to you from the historical protestant position that scripture is perspicuous meaning that god has clearly revealed himself in his word.

And we clearly understand god's word when we employ the grammatical historical method of interpretation. We must employ that consistently. And I believe that this is actually an undeniable hermeneutic.

And so since scripture's origin is from god, it cannot be broken. It can be clearly understood. It alone possesses a unique ability to make the man of god complete and equipped for every good work. And for that reason I believe that the word of god is the sole infallible rule of faith in our lives.

Now roman catholicism teaches something much different. My friend matthew he holds to a tripartite structure of authority namely scripture tradition and the magisterium. Now that is an important note because this debate is not about proving sola scriptura or rome's tripartite structure.

Rather this debate will attempt to demonstrate which system can consistently answer the question Was mary sinless? And so my answer is no. In fact, I believe that we can know with certainty that she was a sinner in need of a savior from her personal sin.

Just like the rest of humanity now, I would like to support my answer in two ways. Number one I want to demonstrate my internal critique of rome's tripartite structure on this marian dogma. And number two, I want to vindicate the position that scripture clearly teaches us that mary was sinful.

Just like the rest of humanity under adam's headship. So for the sake of argument, let me grant rome's tripartite structure now according to Catholic apologist robert singenis, which my friend matthew once again looks up to.

I believe his teaching reflects the magisterium when he says there is no way that mary could have been sinless if she was not Immaculately conceived. If mary had not received the special grace of god We would have no savior and thus we would all be damned with no hope of salvation.

Now I believe robert singenis is reflecting pope pius the ninth where he dogmatized This teaching of the immaculate conception in his 1854 Encyclical pope pius the ninth said mary's conception was free from all taint of original sin.

And this doctrine always existed in the church as doctrine. To think otherwise than what has been defined by us. Let him know and understand that he is condemned and cut off from the church. So the key things that I want you to take away from pope pius the ninth and roman catholic apologist robert singenis.

Is they're saying mary's sinless life is contingent on her immaculate conception. That the church has always taught this doctrine and this marian dogma is critical to the gospel message. Now when you open up the pages of history, this is mind-blowing because so many early church fathers canonized saints archbishops and yes, even popes have outright denied the immaculate conception and mary's sinless life.

Popes are supposed to be the successors of peter with the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose here on earth. So I do not understand even on rome's own terms how many popes could be wrong on crucial parts Of the gospel that are worthy of anathema today.

I believe that this is an insurmountable problem even on rome's own terms all these church fathers canonized saints and popes. They would have been cut off from the church and condemned as heretics under pope pius the ninth.

Now I understand that rome can simply say well It's okay for the early church to have disagreement on these thing on these things before 1854. But after that you can't have any more disagreement. Now I think that actually opens up another major problem for the magisterium because they are not utilizing terms like dogmas Anathemas and excommunication the way that the new testament prescribes.

I think at this point they are redefining terms. So my second way of answering no to the question was mary's sinless is by letting the whole council of god speak to the matter. The apostle paul declares in romans 3 23 for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god.

Now I believe that this verse Is in a unique context in the book of romans that's consistent with the canonical context of both the old and new testament namely that all of humanity Including mary would be born under the headship of adam into sin.

And is therefore in need of a personal savior on that basis. So let me restate my argument this way. Premise one. All of humanity that are born under the headship of adam are made sinners. Premise two.

Mary was born under the headship of adam and conclusion. Therefore mary was a sinner. Now i'd like to support and clarify each premise along with occlusion. So listen to premise one again and listen for my subtle implication here.

All of humanity that are born under the headship of adam are made sinners. I believe there is an exception to the rule. Now this comes from romans chapter 5 where the apostle paul tells us that there are two figures that represent humanity.

Adam and jesus christ. Now adam's sin in the garden of eden. Transmitted death and sin to all of his posterity. Paul tells us this in romans 5 verse 12. Therefore just as sin came into the world through one man adam and death through sin and so death spread to all men because all sin.

Paul goes on and says adam's one trespass led condemnation for all men and then he says for as by The one man's disobedience the many who we know as all men were made sinners. Now paul is developing his case earlier in romans chapter 3.

And he tells us about a unique relationship between sin and righteousness. He says this for we have already charged that all both jews and greeks are under sin. As it is written none is righteous. No, not one.

And so paul's point is that if you were under adam Then you were under sin and if you were under sin, you were not under righteousness before god almighty. The apostle paul is not saying anything new that is not already revealed to us from the hebrew scriptures.

Ecclesiastes 7 verse 20 says surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. Adam is the federal head to all of humanity because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god all.

Except the one who was to come jesus christ. Paul says this in romans 5 verse 14. Yet death reigned from adam to moses. Even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of adam who was a type of the one who was to come.

This verse is showing us the universality of sin. And then paul calls adam a true type by the way of the one who was to come. It's so incredible to me that the apostle paul uses the definite article here to show us that jesus christ Is one of a kind and uniquely distinct from adam and all of his posterity.

Paul would have understood that jesus christ was not represented by adam yet Jesus retained a human nature completely unscathed by sin. Now for a moment, I want us to go to luke 1 verse 35. Which I believe gives us the answer to how jesus christ could come into this world and bypass adam's sin tainted headship.

That verse says the angel answered mary the holy spirit will come upon you and the power of the most high will Overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy the son of god. Now this means that the most high god who created and upholds the universe would create life in mary's womb.

Through the active means of the holy spirit. So when we ask the question, how was jesus's human nature untouched by adam's sin tainted headship? Well, the answer was given to us by the power of the holy spirit Overshadowing and shining through mary to create human life.

Think about it this way just as sunshine can radiate a light through a dirty glass window and remain pure. So can the power of the most high create jesus's humanity pure and holy even through the womb of sinful flesh.

Jesus christ is the one meaning the only one who was to come in this manner. He is a second and last type of adam who alone was perfectly holy. Righteous and set apart from sin. So let me move on to the second premise.

Mary was born under the headship of adam now I think initially this is not a controversial point with roman catholics however. The book of romans is abundantly clear that if you are represented by adam, then you are made a sinner and are not righteous.

Mary does not escape this because she's under the federal headship of adam. See, she cannot escape his sin tainted headship by appealing to immaculate conception. She would have to be preemptively saved from being under adam.

Now mary also does not escape receiving the effects of adam's sin. No matter how many spurious topological parallels are made by rome. For example, if i'm asked the question, are there any similarities between eve and mary.

I would say absolutely Yes, these are two women that god used mightily in his unfolding plan of redemption just like many other women throughout history. But here's where a bigger problem comes in is when we say are there any similarities between the ark of the covenant?

And mary this opens up a huge problem because to say yes means to literally open up the floodgate and say Everything in creation has similarities and parallels. And so when I hear the argument from matthew saying well.

You see the ark of the covenant held god and was holy when someone touched it. They died and mary is a greater type because she carried god in her stomach. She must have been holy and without sin. That is just simply abusing the text and I think if we use that standard we can make a better case that joseph Jesus's earthly father was sinless.