Jeremiah Nortier Vs Matthew Broderick Was Mary Sinless EP 187

All right. All right. Thank you for joining me in this episode of the gospel truth I'm your host Marlon Wilson. And once again, we have another debate another great debate was

Mary sinful sinless. Sorry was Mary sinless We got another great one and I thank you for joining me today as always

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As always I have some announcements of shows that I have coming up in the future that I want you to know about All right coming up is purgatory a biblical concept.

Dr. Michael Brown Actually, let me restart that So this is the show before that So it's coming up May 22nd is the

Calvinist view of election biblical that have Stephen Young versus Isaac Hensley May 22nd at 4 p .m

Eastern Standard Time 1 p .m. Pacific Standard Time After that, I have understanding morality

I have scarlet clay and Shannon Q and they're coming on Monday May 24th at 5 p .m.

Pacific Standard Time 8 p .m Eastern Standard Time After that Chris date

Kevin Thompson are theistic determinism and unconditional election biblical Chris date

Once again, Kevin Thompson May 20 May 25th at 5 p .m. Pacific Standard Time 8 p .m.

Eastern Standard Time Then after that, like I said, dr. Michael Brown and William are rich it

I think I might have pronounced that wrong, but I let him correct me when he comes on June 1st Tuesday June 1st at 5 p .m.

Pacific Standard Time 8 p .m. Eastern Standard Time So once again, that is the next four shows on the gospel truth

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So you could catch every single show live All right That said I have Jeremiah nortier with me and I have

Matthew Broderick both of these brothers been on before they've been on the show before and Jeremiah last night

Jeremiah was on he debated Matt Saley All right, Matt Saley if you guys remember that debate that was a very good debate very fun debate

And I think we got a lot done in that debate I think it was a great great interaction between him and Matt and for the life of me

I cannot remember who Matthew I know Matthew was on I cannot remember who Matthew debated I have to go search through my shows again to see where Matthew who

Matt debate But Matthew is actually a patron of the gospel truth So he's he's not only been on a platform not only as he subscribed to the platform

But he's actually supporting the ministry financially through patreon. So I thank Matthew for that.

That's it Let me bring these guys in so they can introduce themselves What's up, guys? How you doing?

Hey, hey, it's good to see y 'all Excellent excellent so glad you guys jumped back on to the gospel truth man to once again add another debate to This already heavy heavy debate channel.

So I'm excited for this one, man Once again, we're debating was Mary Silas man.

This is interesting Catholic and Protestant debate man That's been going on for a very very long time man.

So it's trip to see what you guys have to say I know there are a bunch of stuff I don't know and I know it's a bunch of stuff that the audience don't know so hopefully you guys be able to share some

Light on that information before we jump into that debate though. Let me into this debate

Let me allow you time to introduce yourselves man. This is your opportunity to talk about your website blogs Whatever you do man, let them know start with Jeremiah man.

Give a quick introduction yourself. Hey everybody. My name is Jeremiah nor tear

Thank you Marlon for allowing me to be back on. This is my third time on the gospel truth This is a wonderful platform to just articulate the gospel and to contend for the truth

So if you'd like to know more about me and where I serve, it's at twelvefivechurch .com

That's the word twelve the number five church .com and if you're in the area Northeast Arkansas, we'd love for you to come and fellowship with us

And so once again, I want to thank you Marlon and Matthew for this opportunity I want to give a shout out to my wife that allowed me to do this in her living room

She's so gracious to me And I also want to give a shout out to a couple of my friends that have just helped me

Thank through and pray for this debate my friend Cameron Vogel saying

I Appreciate him just helping me out and I just want to thank Pastor Nathan at twelve five church

Just your prayers and helping get everything set up and I also want to thank my buddy Robert Boylan Who is a

Mormon, but we have some things in common when it comes to this issue. So I want to thank him as well All right, cool.

Cool. Thank you so much Jeremiah for coming on once again the gospel truth All right, Matthew. Go over get give a quick introduction yourself

Sure. Thank you. My name is Matthew brother and Like the actor I do get a lot of flack over that So, uh, but that's fine.

I ended up changing my name to Matthew Jessica Parker just rid of all the but uh, I I I want to thank

Marlon for the opportunity I want to thank Jeremiah for the opportunity and all those praying for both myself and Jeremiah and I want to thank all those

People I've learned from in a very special way William Albrecht and Robert fastigi and Jerry Matt it takes and Robertson Janice Like it was so many great

Individuals that I've learned from and the early church fathers and just like to thank God for the opportunity

I'm in a little leagues when it comes to apologetics. I'm like, you know a little kid going to baseball

He wants to you know, he sees Ricky Henderson out there planning wants to steal the base So, uh, but that's uh, so I'm relatively new in terms of doing the public

I've been doing apologetics behind the screen for like 15 15 20 years now, but I'm not really haven't

Haven't written any books or anything. So I just I've had a few debates, but I wanted to thank everybody for the opportunity

To be here. Thank you All right, guys, good stuff good stuff. Thank you for the introduction.

So now we go jump into this debate All right. Once again, the topic of this debate was Mary Sellers Jeremiah. You're already a negative and Matthew Matthew Broderick, you're arguably if the affirmative in this debate, so we're gonna start off with 15 -minute opening statements

That's gonna be followed by seven minute rebuttals And then we'll have a 40 -minute cross -examination The first 20 minutes to be 10 minutes each to ask questions and then a final 20 minutes to be more of an open discussion

Then we're gonna fall out with five minute closing and there's some Q &A from the audience. Sounds good Mm -hmm.

Yes All right, Matthew, you're arguing affirmative in this debate. So let me know when you're ready and I will set your time and get it going man.

Let me know when you're ready Sure, I'm fine now. All right, you got it for 15 minutes

Alright, thank you very much. Thank you Like I said, thank you so much to Jeremiah and tomorrow and to all those praying for both both of us

I I fell in love with Holy Scripture I think first under the guidance of my mother

I lost my mother my father within the last four years Sadly, I'm the youngest of eight children, but I've been so blessed.

My father was one of the most generous Funny kind -hearted people that I've ever met and my mother was just an angel

She truly was she had such a love for the written Word of God She'd wake up every morning at six o 'clock and before she went to daily mass to consume the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ The name above all names or new

Passover lamb before she went to daily mass. She would she would be enthralled in the word she just I could just see that relationship that she had with with God through his word and through his through his the

Lord's Supper and It was just instrumental for me And the reason I bring that up is because I loved

I have such a love of the written word That I recently had gotten a new Bible And I was very excited and I didn't know where to put it

I wanted to put it somewhere that I knew it could be seen But I also knew that I could see others but also by myself, but I wanted to have a very special place for it and Before I I found a place that I really wanted to put the

Holy Scripture on the new Bible I made sure the table that I had that little high nightstand

The little high nightstands or the little high nightstand what I would do is I would I Cleaned everything off all the dust or the dirt or the impurities

So a nice and clean record, but the Holy of the Holy Word of God And I think the reason

I bring that up is because tonight I think that's a very good summary of was Mary sinless tonight

Because I think that's exactly from Holy Scriptures and the church fathers and and the

Catholic Church That's exactly what God did with Mary the mother of God Jesus being the written word and The eternal word

And the oral word through his twelve apostles seven of the Apostles spoke God As it says in Hebrews Submit to your leaders of the

Word of God that you have heard preached to you So that was all twelve apostles So some wrote the Holy Scriptures the

Word of God and seven of them taught the Word of God orally But Jesus Christ himself is the eternal word

So that eternal word in Mary before taking flesh in Mary like that that mantle that nightstand

Everything was was removed the the dirt the impurities So that God could dwell within a pure a pure dwelling place if you look back at Exodus 25

We know that God dwells everywhere heaven is thrown earth is footstool Psalms say that Jesus the

King of Kings says it Stephen says it God is God dwells everywhere but in a very special way he chose to dwell in the ark of the covenant and God was very very specific about how the ark was to be designed.

It was to be a pure dwelling place Why it's be pure dwelling place because he was to dwell there in a very special and pure pure way and that pure dwelling was the holiest object in all of Israel as a matter of fact all of the world that holiest object was the ark of the covenant of the ark of the

Lord and God was very specific about how it was designed because he was to dwell there. Now if we look at many of the church fathers

They do notice with without a doubt the similarities that Luke makes To 2nd

Samuel between Mary as the ark of the Lord and the mother of the

Lord and in 2nd Samuel the the mother of the Lord and the ark of the Lord in 2nd

Samuel the ark of the Lord travels the land of Hebron and Luke 1 Mary travels the land of Hebron in 2nd

Samuel Mary as she enters she comes a little closer

Elizabeth feels unworthy as the mother of the Lord approaches her just as David felt unworthy as the ark of the

Lord approached him Then after a certain trepidation There was joy a

David danced for joy As the ark of the Lord approached him and John the Baptist upon Mary's greeting.

It says upon Luke upon Mary's greeting left for joy in the womb of the mother Both the ark of the

Lord remained in the region for three months 2nd Samuel and Mary remained in the regions for three months in in Luke 1 both parks

Were overshadowed by the glory of God in Exodus and both in Luke the

Holy Spirit God's glory overshadowed both the ark and the mother of the Lord and Again, we see in Revelation 12 where John says

I see a sign a sign that's referenced back to Isaiah Where the woman shall give birth to To a son whose name is

Emmanuel and Revelation 12 sees the I see the ark of the Covenant a woman clothed with the Sun She who is the the woman who gave birth to the male child

Born to rule the nations and Mary is the woman who gave birth to the male child born to rule the nations so as we know that With God all things are possible and without God nothing is possible.

So Mary of course is Referenced back in Genesis 3 where God Threw the fall of Adam and Eve who through free will disobeyed

They were swayed by Satan his snares. They were swayed into falling for his trap

But God God is love. God is mercy. The Catholic Mass is something beautiful, which

I really love. It says out of Out of love you created us in your juice in your justice you condemned us, but in your mercy you redeemed us

And that redemption takes place in the foretold Redeemer Jesus Christ the King of Kings But if you look in Genesis 3 we can tell in a very special way that Mary Along with her son are free from sin

God by his very nature Jesus Christ is free from sin. He's guiltless because he is

God He's free from sin by his own very nature Mary on the other hand was created as a pure dwelling place as the

Ark of the Covenant was it was God's doing God says I shall put enmity to Satan between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers

So the woman is not Eve because Eve gave in to Satan's snares. What we noticed that many even

Jewish rabbis and any Jewish and many of the church fathers knew that there was a

Messianic prophecy The woman and her offspring and he shall crush thy head.

So who was the woman that's Mary That's why John John references and Jesus speaks to his causes mother woman so often

Holy Scripture woman because she's the foretold woman in Genesis and she's at enmity with Satan as Is her offspring

Jesus Christ, but Mary's at enmity by the grace of God only by God's grace only by God's grace not by her own nature as Jesus Christ alone was but we know with God's grace all things are possible in Titus 2 it says to the one

The grace of God has appeared he who saves and if we look in Jude verse 23 verse 24

It says to the one who has the power to keep us from falling. So God gave Mary that power to keep her from falling

That's why she was saluted by the Archangel Gabriel as being full of grace Hail full of grace even before baptism, which removes sin

Acts 22 16 Arise and wash away your sins be baptized. So that's when that's when one is full of grace

After that through baptism by the the waters that were made pure By Jesus who went into the

Baptist to be baptized by John But if we look at if we look at that, like I said, it's it's all

God's doing but God himself specifically said that I will put enmity between you and The woman between her offspring and hers so it's not just the

Messiah the offspring of the woman But it's the woman herself as well she is the one who is is pure a pure dwelling place just as the

Ark of the Covenant was in Exodus 25 God chose to design her in a very special way.

Who am I that the Even Elizabeth who was blameless before God and keeping the commandments.

She felt unworthy Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me? If we look at the book of Song of Solomon Chapter 6

I believe it is it says one alone is my dove One alone is my perfect one the dear one of her parents and they all saw her and called her blessed

And that's why Mary says all generations shall be blessed even in her humility She had to allow the

Holy Spirit to proclaim what the truth was about her that all generations shall call her blessed and that she

Is indeed full of grace full of grace before Christ took flesh in the womb full of grace before baptism which removes sin because God Father Son and Holy Spirit Jesus Christ who is yesterday today and forever along with his eternal

Father and Spirit prepared Mary to be that pure Dwelling place to be the one it along with himself

At enmity with Satan Jesus, of course by his very nature was it was guiltless and was sinless

By his very nature as God, but as we see that every group the grace has appeared from from from Christ Who is

God Father Son and Holy Spirit eternal forever and ever that grace if we cooperate with that grace, which

Mary did Mary was obedient and Elizabeth said blessed are you among women and blessed at the fruit of your womb blessed is she who believed and Blessed is she who obeyed so we all know that it's

God. It's God. Who's the one who? Made the promise and he fulfilled it in in in in in Mary the foretold woman in Genesis Her and her offspring

Jesus Christ, but like I said, it's as no one has ever taught. No one will ever taught That Mary was sinless by by her very nature.

That's Jesus Christ alone You know, we have one of the greatest One of the greatest of All -time st.

Athanasius talks about Mary in such a way that is so profound. I'll get to that in just a second

I know we can read Scripture and see a line and say well

That's that proves it that proves Mary Mary was sinful all have sinned and fall of short for the glory of God All have sinned all must mean all but we know that's not necessarily the case because in Romans 5 it says by one man's act of righteousness

Becomes justification for all men. So are all men saved by Jesus of course

They that that salvation is made possible by his once -imperfect sacrifice But all men have to freely choose to accept

The king and his act of mercy so we know that all men are not saved in the way

Paul was talking about it in Romans And just as we know that not all have sin

Jesus himself was an exception on babies who die in the womb Who they have not sinned this

Paul was talking about original sin that was contracted a Romans That he when he talks about the guilty by nature children of wrath

That's the fallen nature, but we know that babies don't sin even in the womb as a matter of fact I think the Romans 9

Paul says of Jacob and Esau Esau sorry that they were They were born even before they ever did anything bad or good they were in the womb

Before they did anything good or bad. So there's there's many exceptions in Paul's all all have sin

So and if we look at say none are not all righteous not one not one righteous We'll say that proves it too, but that doesn't necessarily prove it because in the book of Matthew chapter 1 st

Joseph the husband of Mary is called righteous. He's called righteous. So it says not a righteous

Not one, but Joseph is called righteous Simeon in the temple is called righteous in Luke And I believe also in Peter's letter.

He calls a lot righteous Paul says it's obedience that leads to righteousness It's it's when we cooperate with God's grace.

He was the king of mercy was provided that grace for us But like Adam Eve we can choose to to not cooperate with that grease or we can choose to cooperate

With that grace if we look at some of the early church fathers some may say that they're not It's not

Holy Scripture But like in one sense like we do have Holy Scripture saying that God himself has put enmity between Satan and the woman between Satan and her offspring.

So Mary is at enmity along with her son The woman she did not she won't doesn't give by being

God putting that enmity. She's not Giving in to Satan's snares like like Eve did she was full of grace

St. Augustine the great church father st. Augustine says with the exception of the Holy Virgin Mary in regards to sin

Out of respect for the honor of the Lord. I choose not to speak Knowing that the abundance of grace that God has given to her to overcome all sin

Because through her who was worthy to be made the mother of him himself

Obviously is not sinful in any way St. Ephraim says in you there is no stain

O God O Lord nor there is there any stain in your mother Theodosius and some of these were written as early as 400s 300s, but we also have

Hippolytus in 217 Saying they had preached the advent of God in the flesh in the world is advent by the spotless and God -bearing

Mary Yeah, and we have Theodosius saying Mary was spotless untouched unsullied holy soul and body

Like a lily among the thorns that's also a reference to song of Solomon But we have something about what

I think is just an amazing thing from Athanasius I'll try to sum it up sum it up pretty quickly for the rest of my time

It says Athanasius says well noble virgin truly you are greater than any greatness

O dwelling place of the word to whom among all creatures shall I compare you you are greater than them all

Oh Ark of the New Covenant flow with purity instead of gold You are the ark which is filled with both golden golden vessel containing the true man of Jesus Christ It says of angels and archangels that they are great, but you are greater than them all

So in giving reference to Mary as Elizabeth said who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me We're giving reverence to both

God and his greatest masterpiece Just like a painter would not be offended if you admire their painting and their work

Elizabeth said who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me It was in one sense giving greater glory to God the one who created this pure dwelling place

For the most high the new ark of the covenant Mary most pure Mary most holy

All right. Thank you Matthew for that open a statement. All right, Jeremiah. You're up for your 15 -minute opening

Let me know when you're ready, and I will start your time I'm gonna go All right, you got it for 15 minutes

So Protestants are often accused of being anti Mary and that's just simply not true

We love the biblical Mary according to the Word of God Today I want to present to you from the historical

Protestant position that Scripture is Perspicuous meaning that God has clearly revealed himself in his

Word and we clearly understand God's Word when we employ the grammatical historical method of interpretation must employ that consistently and I believe that this is actually an undeniable

Hermeneutic and so since Scripture's origin is from God it cannot be broken

It can be clearly understood it alone possesses a unique ability to make the man of God Complete and equipped for every good work

And for that reason, I believe that the Word of God is the sole infallible rule of faith in our lives

Now Roman Catholicism teaches something much different My friend

Matthew he holds to a tripartite structure of authority namely scripture tradition and the

Magisterium now that is an important note because this debate is not about proving

Sola Scriptura or Rome's tripartite structure Rather this debate will attempt to demonstrate which system can consistently answer the question

Was Mary sinless and so my answer is no In fact, I believe that we can know with certainty that she was a sinner in need of a

Savior from her Personal sin just like the rest of humanity now, I'd like to support my answer in two ways number one

I want to demonstrate by internal critique of Rome's tripartite structure on this Marian dogma and number two

I want to vindicate the position that scripture clearly teaches us that Mary was sinful

Just like the rest of humanity under Adams headship So for the sake of argument, let me grant

Rome's tripartite structure now according to Catholic apologist Robertson Jennis, which my friend

Matthew once again looks up to I believe his teaching reflects the Magisterium when he says there is

No way that Mary could have been sinless if she was not Immaculately conceived if Mary had not received the special grace of God We would have no

Savior and thus we would all be damned with no hope of salvation Now believe

Robertson Jennis is reflecting Pope Pius the ninth where he dogmatized this teaching of the

Immaculate Conception in his 1854 encyclical Pope Pius the ninth said

Mary's Conception was free from all taint of original sin and this doctrine always

Existed in the church as doctrine to think otherwise than what has been defined by us

Let him know and understand that he is condemned and cut off from the church So the key things that I want you to take away from Pope Pius the ninth and Roman Catholic Apologist Robertson Jennis is they're saying

Mary's sinless life is contingent on her Immaculate Conception That the church has always taught this doctrine and this

Marian dogma is critical to the gospel message Now when you open up the pages of history

This is mind -blowing because so many early church fathers canonized saints archbishops and yes, even

Popes have outright denied the Immaculate Conception and Mary's sinless life

Popes are supposed to be the successors of Peter with the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose here on earth

So I do not understand even on Rome's own terms how many Popes could be wrong on Crucial parts of the gospel that are worthy of anathema today

I believe that this is an insurmountable problem even on Rome's own terms all these church fathers canonized saints and Popes They would have been cut off from the church and condemned as heretics under Pope Pius the ninth

Now I understand that Rome can simply say well It's okay for the early church to have disagreement on these things on these things before 1854 but after that you can't have any more disagreement now

I think that actually opens up another major problem for the magisterium because they are not utilizing terms like dogmas

Anathemas and excommunication the way that the New Testament prescribes. I think at this point they are redefining terms

So a second way of answering No to the question was Mary sinless is by letting the whole

Council of God speak to the matter The Apostle Paul declares in Romans 3 23 for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God Now I believe that this verse is in a unique context in the book of Romans That's consistent with the canonical context of both the

Old and New Testament namely that all of humanity including Mary Would be born under the headship of Adam into sin and is therefore in need of a personal

Savior on that basis So let me restate my argument this way premise one all of humanity that are

Born under the headship of Adam are made sinners Premise two Mary was born under the headship of Adam and conclusion therefore

Mary was a sinner Now I'd like to support and clarify each premise along with occlusion

So listen to premise one again and listen for my subtle implication here all of humanity that are

Born under the headship of Adam are made sinners. I believe there is an exception to the rule now

This comes from Romans chapter 5 where the Apostle Paul tells us that there are two figures that represent humanity

Adam and Jesus Christ now Adam sin in the Garden of Eden Transmitted death and sin to all of his posterity

Paul tells us this in Romans 5 verse 12 Therefore just as sin came into the world through one man

Adam and death through sin and so death spread to all men because all sin

Paul goes on and says Adams one trespass led condemnation for all men

And then he says for as by the one man's disobedience The many who we know is all men were made sinners

Now Paul is developing his case earlier in Romans chapter 3

And he tells us about a unique relationship between sin and righteousness He says this for we have already charged that all both

Jews and Greeks are under sin as it is written None is righteous No Not one and so Paul's point is that if you were under Adam Then you were under sin

And if you were under sin, you were not under righteousness before God Almighty The Apostle Paul is not saying anything new that is not already revealed to us from the

Hebrew Scriptures Ecclesiastes 7 verse 20 says surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins

Adam is the federal head to all of humanity because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God all

Except the one who was to come Jesus Christ Paul says this in Romans 5 verse 14 yet death reigned from Adam to Moses Even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam who was a type of the one who was to come

This verse is showing us the universality of sin And then Paul calls Adam a true type by the way of the one who was to come

It's so incredible to me that the Apostle Paul uses the definite article here to show us that Jesus Christ is

One -of -a -kind and uniquely distinct from Adam and all of his posterity Paul would have understood that Jesus Christ was not represented by Adam yet Jesus retained a human nature completely unscathed by sin now for a moment

I want us to go to Luke 1 verse 35 which I believe gives us the answer to how

Jesus Christ could come into this world and Bypass Adam's sin -tainted headship that verse says the angel answered

Mary The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you

Therefore the child to be born will be called Holy the Son of God Now this means that the

Most High God who created and upholds the universe would create life in Mary's womb

Through the active means of the Holy Spirit So when we ask the question, how was

Jesus's human nature untouched by Adam's sin -tainted headship? Well, the answer was given to us by the power of the

Holy Spirit Overshadowing and shining through Mary to create human life

Think about it this way Just as sunshine can radiate a light through a dirty glass window and remain pure So can the power of the

Most High create Jesus's humanity pure and holy even through the womb of sinful flesh

Jesus Christ is the one meaning the only one who was to come in this manner

He is a second and last type of Adam who alone was perfectly holy

Righteous and set apart from sin. So let me move on to the second premise

Mary was born under the headship of Adam. Now, I think initially this is not a controversial point with Roman Catholics However, the book of Romans is abundantly clear that if you are represented by Adam Then you are made a sinner and are not righteous

Mary does not escape this because she's under the federal headship of Adam See she cannot escape his sin -tainted headship by appealing to immaculate conception

She would have to be preemptively saved from being under Adam Now Mary also does not escape receiving the effects of Adam's sin no matter how many spurious topological parallels are made by Rome For example, if I'm asked the question, are there any similarities between Eve and Mary?

I would say absolutely Yes These are two women that God used mightily in his unfolding plan of redemption just like many other women throughout history

But here's where a bigger problem comes in is when we say are there any similarities between the

Ark of the Covenant and Mary this opens up a huge problem because to say yes means to literally open up the floodgate and say

Everything in creation has similarities and parallels And so when I hear the argument from Matthew saying well

You see the Ark of the Covenant held God and was holy when someone touched it They died and Mary is a greater type because she carried

God in her stomach She must have been holy and without sin that is just simply abusing the text

And I think if we use that standard we can make a better case that Joseph Jesus earthly father was sinless.

We could say that We could we could look to Joseph in the Old Testament Joseph of Egypt and say look

These two Joseph's are parallels their types of one another they had the same name their fathers had the same name

Jacob But and they both had prophetic dreams But you see New Testament Joseph is a better type because he received a dream about the

Son of God Both of these Joseph's they saved people from famine Old Testament Joseph simply provided physical food as where the

New Testament Joseph was a greater type He protected and raised the Son of God who is true manna from heaven to feed mankind spiritually

We could say now that this is Inescapable typology that not only shows that Joseph was sinless.

He had to be sinless he was called a just man and scripture nowhere records him sinning and Joseph would have been a secondary mediator for mankind him and Mary both raised the

Son of God and you know what? Joseph must have been assumed into heaven because scripture nowhere records his death

Now I hope it is clear that this kind of reasoning is absurd and this

Demonstrates how you can read anything you want into the text anyone can find anything

Implicitly taught by scripture according to this standard so lastly my

Conclusion is therefore Mary was a sinner now. Not only is this conclusion deductively valid But more importantly it is grounded in the

Word of God Let's go back to Luke chapter 1 where Mary says in her famous Magnificat my soul magnifies the

Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior Now my interlocutor

Matthew and I I think we agree Mary's prayer was exalting God as Savior from sin, but here's the big question

Was Mary praising God from preemptively saving her from the stain of Adam's original sin

Or was Mary praising God who saved her by his grace from her corrupted nature and personal sin

Just like the rest of humanity now like always I think the surrounding context always informs this type of answer

Mary goes on to say in her Magnificat that God looked on her humble estate

Now this Greek word is very interesting because it means to be spiritually abased before God because of moral guilt

In fact in Psalm 25 King David prays to God in the same manner. He says to you.

Oh Lord I lift up my soul. Oh my god in you I trust remember not the sins of my youth or my transgressions consider my affliction or humble estate

It's the same Greek word and my trouble and forgive me of all of my sins

Point is Mary is utilizing terminology that Saints like King David and Hannah who were sinners before God Almighty Confessing their sin and praising him for salvation

So a couple verses I know time is running out to look at the verses leading up to Mary's Magnificat We're gonna get into this

Luke 1 28 And the text says that Mary was full of grace and I'm going to argue

She was full of grace like all believers of all time And so lastly the verse right before Mary's Magnificat says in verse 45 and Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the

Lord Notice the language shift to the third person pronoun she this broadens the blessing to all

Believers just like Matthew 25 says come you the plural you who are

Blessed by my father to inherit the kingdom prepared before you from the foundation of the world

Here's the point Mary had faith in the coming Messiah spoken to her the same way

Abraham did in the same way that all believers do Mary was not saved

Preemptively from sin, but she was a sinner saved by grace through faith.

Thank you All right, thank you so much for the openness Davis now we're going to transition to the rebuttal round All right, we once again a seven minute rebuttal so Matthew let me know you're ready and I will start your time for your seven minute rebuttal

All right, you got it for Hold on one second. Hold on Matthew Let me bring this

All right, Matthew. You got it for seven minutes All right,

I'm ready thank you I found it interesting that in my first I think 15 minutes I don't even think I really addressed the church.

Of course as a Catholic Christian I believe in the authority of the church just as the Jewish people in the time of Christ had that three -legged stool

It was not just scripture alone it was the teaching authority of Moses and And the oral tradition and same as Paul talks about, you know

Hold fast to the traditions, which is also the Word of God plus the seven of the twelve apostles taught with all authority

A scripture alone is something that came much later was not practiced by Jesus The King of Kings was not practiced by the

Jewish people before Christ or even the early church But I hadn't even even really addressed the church, but I don't think

Jeremiah still has not proven from Holy Scripture He's never really proven that Mary was a sinner again in Genesis 3

God is the one who confirms I will put enmity. I myself will put enmity between you

He's talking to serpent the serpent is Satan I will put enmity between you and the woman between her offspring and yours so Mary and Her offspring

Jesus Christ are both at enmity with Satan and enmity means to be get complete odds

Complete odds not to give in Jesus, of course was sinless by his very nature and Mary was sinless by God's grace

That's why she was saluted as being full of grace even before the Holy Spirit overshadowed her that overshadowed her that that's a very important thing

Jeremiah said well, you know God took God became holy. God was holy and made

Mary holy When the Holy Spirit overshadowed her but Mary was saluted by the Archangel Gabriel's being full of grace

Even before that because God had done that pre pre -emptive

Cleaning Purification as he did in the Ark of the Covenant and it's funny how there are so many people

I guess Jeremiah had mentioned that it's just a really an absurd tactic or Just just such a you know, but for st.

Athanasius to call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant and just as st.

Ephraim st. Augustine was Mary so pure so holy Without sin, so there's the early church fathers and it's funny because Jeremiah mentioned several popes so many popes have called

Mary a sinner But he hasn't provided one. There's um, there's not one Pope that had called

Mary a sinner Some of those references to that Mary as being called a sinner by the

Popes has never been confirmed Even the one who actually wrote that book

Had mentioned that there was there was no it was no original There's no there's no there's no

Pope's of Mary being a sinner by the Popes and even by the church fathers if you could find One or two that maybe said

Mary doubted but even doubt is not a sin but you have close to 75 80 90 percent of them saying that Mary was pure holy

And they just they were discussing amongst each other was Mary They even said even the

Orthodox Church We believe Mary was not a sinner That's not even a question. The question was about the original conception

Sure, because during that time they didn't know when when birth when life took place When it was the soul that was infused into the body when so that was still a question but the question even among the

Orthodox Christians is not was Mary a sinner a lot of some of the early Apostles, I'm sorry the church fathers

Said even that St. John the Baptist was not guilty of personal sin

Perhaps he was guilty of the fallen nature of Adam and Eve but a personal sin being filled with the

Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb some of that even came to question by the church fathers as to perhaps

John the Baptist never sinned But only by cooperating with God's grace only, you know by cooperating with God's grace, but that was still a question

But again the Holy Spirit working through the written Word of God does confirm that Mary is a total enmity with Satan as Is her offspring

Jesus Christ Mary was saluted by the Archangel Gabriel as being full of grace Full of grace even before the

Holy Spirit overshadowed her with the coming of the all -holy Christ. So she was full of grace Again, according to Jeremiah in Romans 5 all have sinned that means all everybody but in Rome in Romans 3

All have sinned but in Romans 5 Does that mean all men are saved every single human being is saved because it says by one man's righteous act comes justification and life for all

Mankind so that means all that means every single human being up But if all means all in Romans 3 then all means all in Romans 5

So everyone and we know that's not exactly what Mark is talking about Romans 3 or 5

Marcus Paul is kind of referring to both Jew and Gentile that was the focus of pretty much so much of his letters.

We're talking about Israel being grafted in the new Olive branch he's talking mostly about Jew and Gentile, but he's not talking specific and babies in the womb who died have not sinned even if they're under the

Fallen nature of they have not personal sin. So Jesus is human nature did not sin that's an exception to all and babies in the womb people with handicap that perhaps with the mental challenges of that handicap or that have have traumatic brain injuries that cannot

They have not sinned and I capable of it Paul was not talking about the individual personal there, but he was talking about the full nature

Of course, but again that's confirmed and that's prophesied in Genesis 3 where God himself has put the enmity between Not just the offspring

But the woman and her offspring so that woman of course is Mary and her offspring is

Jesus Christ Think I've just like about a minute left both at enmity. So again, we have st.

Athanasius Comparing the because he knows the six parallels. I just gave six parallels

You're gonna really have to stand before Jesus Christ one day the King of Kings and when Jesus says well, you know

There was six parallels between 2nd Samuel and Mary Why do you really think it's absurd to think that?

Mary traveled the land of Hebron the arcane the arc travel and Elizabeth felt unworthy as the

Ark of the Lord approached David felt unworthy as the Ark Mary remained in a region for three months.

They the Ark of the Covenant made of the region for three months David Danced for joy

Elizabeth John the Baptist and her joy at the Ark of the Lord upon Mary's greeting and Both were overshadowed.

So there were six parallels that the church fathers made Hippolytus Athanasius Augustine Ephraim and Theodosius even

Jerome Um, so if if the Catholic Church, which I haven't been really addressed in terms of authority yet if you're not that's time that That's time

Matthew. That's good. Thank you All right, Jeremiah, you're up for your seven minute rebuttal, let me know when you're ready and I'll start your time

I'm gonna go. All right, you got it for seven minutes Thank You Matthew for that rebuttal and the reason why

I bring out authorities is because I want everybody to realize that we bring Assumptions to the table my underlying authority is

Sola Scriptura His ultimate authority is is Rome and the tripartite structure and I grant that so which system can

Better consistently account of answering the question was Mary sinless Now I I'm glad he asked for citations because a lot of wrote

Catholic apologists bite the bullet and say of course there was disagreement Of course early church fathers have taught that Mary had personal sin and I'm gonna give some citations

So usually the stronger argument is made what's okay for the church to develop doctrine until Pope Pius the ninth in 1854 so let me begin with origin of Alexander He said in his commentary on the

Song of Solomons along with much of other his commentaries here He says quoting Romans 3 23 for all of sin as it is written again

He says as Scripture says there is no just man upon the earth That hath done good and hath not sin alluding to Ecclesiastes 7 20 and again

He says no one is free from uncleanness not even if his life to be of what but one day and then he says this

Therefore our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ alone is he who did no sin?

So obviously origin is excluding everybody. That's not Jesus. That would include

Mary now He goes on in a homily on on Luke.

He talks about the time of Mary having doubt but he is specific with what kind of doubt he calls it the doubt of unbelief

Now if Matthew wants to try to tell me that unbelief is not sin. I'll let him say that but here

Here's the quote from his homily on Luke Origin says that is what

Simeon was prophesying about your soul will be pierced by the sword of Unbelief and will be wounded by this the sword

To the point of doubt and so he's talking about the time when Mary's Beholding her son on the cross and I don't necessarily think he's right

But that's an early church father that believed that Mary sinned and said that Jesus alone is the one who knew no sin

So we go on Tertullian Latin father he said in his homily on the gospel of st

John specifically chapter 2 verse 4th and the marriage of Cana I'll save you the big citation, but he said and so was this a reason why

Jesus rebuked Mary on that occasion Far as I can tell a rebuke

The time Jesus rebuked Peter was because he said something wasn't supposed to and he was in sin He had his mind set on Satan and things of man rather the kingdom of heaven

Tertullian here believed that what Mary did was worthy of rebuke John Chrysostom In his homily on the gospel of John he's talking about How mothers, you know rightly want to defend their children, but in the case in Matthew chapter 11

Where Jesus said who is my mother and who are my brothers? He John Chrysostom says because they did not yet Think rightly of him and she because of she who born him claimed according to the custom of the mothers

To direct him in all things when she ought to have revered and worshiped him when you ought to revere

Jesus And you ought to worship and you don't do that that's sin and so There are more quotes and I got a huge list here

And if if Matthew wants to talk more about those, I definitely want to do that I'll give you one

Pope to work with in our interaction And Pope John the 22nd in his first sermon on the assumption

He said she the Virgin passed from the first a state of original sin second from the state of childhood

To the maternal honor third from misery to glory and I'll include one more

Pope innocent the third In his sermon on purification of the Virgin He said it was the

Holy Ghost that came upon her Mary and he had to come upon her when her mother's womb and he cleansed her soul from Original sin, like I said more and more citation, but it's clear early church fathers many canonized saints

Which we can talk about that too and Popes they disagreed and did not articulate the immaculate conception how

Mary was preemptively saved from that they many people would say that she had personal sin and the way that these

Popes and people would define what original sin was was different and according to Pope Pius the ninth they would be cut off So I just wanted to get some of that citation out there now

Matthew said a lot of great things in his rebuttal that I won't have enough time to respond to but he keeps bringing up Genesis 315 this is the wonderful Proto -evangelium the the early first gospel promise

Now this is something that Matthew and I agree and slightly that I do think the woman there is an allusion

To Mary because I think it's an allusion to the virgin birth. It says her offspring

Typically, it's the male offspring that's talked about when we talk about Genesis 12 and Abraham and his descendants

That's typically how we understand offspring being the seed from the male But Genesis 315 is unique the woman's offspring

This is an allusion to the virgin who is going to bring the Messiah the Savior and this is the point

It's the Savior according to Hebrews verse chapter 2 That's going to crush the head of the serpent destroy all the works of the devil not

Mary now he brought up like so many verses and I'm glad he mentioned

Luke 1 28 how Mary was full of grace Now I just want to say that when we read in Acts chapter 6 that Stephen was a man full of grace

No one thinks that he was sinless now You you got to back it up if you say full of grace means without sin

But as we continue to talk about this that word in its syntactic domain Is nowhere to be found so we can get into the

Greek and the structure of that because it's not going to prove sinlessness from the Bible not even

Implicitly in fact, we're gonna see that Ephesians 1 verse 6 makes that case for all believers and lastly

I Anticipated Matthew talking about the parallels that we see with Mary in the

Ark of the Covenant Let me simply say whoever lives by parallels will also die by parallels because you have no stopping point where the parallels stop

What we need is passages like Romans 5 to tell us that Adam was a type of Jesus Those are the parallels that we need to stick to the ones that scripture gives us

Thank you All right, guys. Thank you so much for the opening statement and the rebuttals

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So we're gonna continue this bait so now we're transitioning to the cross -examination portion of this bait once again

It's cross -examination to be 40 minutes Long the first 20 minutes to be 10 minutes each to ask questions and then a final 20 minutes of the open discussion

That said Matthew you're up first to cross -examine Jeremiah Let me know you're ready and I'll start

Yeah Jeremiah once again, thank you for taking the time out Absolutely, man,

I just can ask you One of my favorite ask me anything you want One of my favorite apologists is a

William Albrecht Yes, and he had a debate about the seven popes now his his opponent

Had mentioned the seven popes that called Mary sinful, but he was not really able to give the citations or the originals

Can you give me where you got my citations from because some of those same popes? When people were looking up to see that to confirm they said they were they were not in the

Cotexes and they could not find And some of those hopes that were given it was two other ones

Hope to let gelatius was also called one of those To have spoken about Mary's being a sinner and then but some references who tapped him is saying hope gelatius

You who you all Lord who deliver us from every evil present and future Through the intercession of the most blessed and glorious and ever virgin

When he's calling her pure and ever virgin and glorious Gregory says in the last days mountain of the

Lord that mountain the highest mountain shall be your mother Great one.

So I mean, I don't know Matthew can't respond real quick Yeah Yeah, and this is where when

I was looking up, you know, the the seven popes that disagreed And I'll give you the citations, but I noticed is okay

I realize everyone there's gonna be a lot of dispute and I grant that but what

I noticed was Robert St. Genes a man that you kind of recommended to me as a good

Catholic apologist He seemed to just bite the bullet in his debate with Tony Costa and said yeah

They can disagree early church fathers and popes. That's okay. You can have disagreement up until 1854 and I thought you know what

I'll go ahead and get the citations That'll be good for an exchange like this but it just seemed to me that it was hard to deny that there were early church fathers and popes that at least articulated the

Immaculate Conception or original sin and define things differently than Pope Pius and 9th

So much so that it would seem to put them outside the bounds and then Catholic apologists say that that's okay

You can have all this disagreement. So I just wanted to kind of qualify More of where I was coming.

I understand. Yeah No, that's totally understandable I do understand that and I do but I do think from what

I've heard from William and from other Catholic apologists that those those I think even the one who provided that the book about the

Pope's Was not able to provide original documents or signatures or co -texts of Actual sayings from those popes that even

I think they said even some Protestant scholars doubted those those sayings from what I? And I agree.

You're right. I'm sorry I think for me origin and to truly and I'm not really considered church fathers Because I think they actually went off a little bit even in some of their

Teachings on Jesus based on his human will his human nature things like that They were questionable, but I definitely believe

John Chrysostom. Did you know did was a in the Greek and The Greek father has um, sure, but he didn't call me.

He didn't call Mary Oh great one, and he called Mary the Matthew and Matthew. Let's make sure we're asking questions.

Let's get let's get some questions in Yeah, I appreciate

I think my first question was just for the site citation I did have my second question,

I'm sorry My second question was um, do you believe you believe John the Baptist was able to stand?

Like if you stand before God, you know when we all do would you be able to say John the Baptist committed personal sin?

Or we're just guilty of sin the fallen nature like the John the Baptist was he a sinner

Like you don't mean it's old personal sin. I Believe John the

Baptist would have by Imputation been a been made a sinner the way that Romans 5 tells us and then

I believe he would have had Personal sin just like the rest of Adam's posterity and I like I said,

I believe that Scripture strongly makes that case Would you be able to I know it's hard to I know this is kind of a crazy question, but To provide any ideas of what type of personal sin that he may have committed

Like in terms of someone filled with the Holy Ghost Yeah, I think

Since he had I'm since he had red blood pumping in his veins. He probably struggled with lust

I took that from Ray Comfort But yeah, I'm I'd be confident that he struggled with lust that he struggled with probably greed

I think he probably struggled with doubt remember when he was imprisoned He was struggling to know if if Jesus was actually who he said he was and Jesus sent messengers to reassure him

Hey, everything's happening the way that it ought to I you know, sometimes

I heard different References to that that that John knew very well who Jesus was like, for example when he baptized him

He says I you know the one this behold the Lamb of God. This is the one that I've known But that maybe he was just saying he was asking those questions for his disciples because he already knew the answer

He already knew why he was in prison and he already knew that Jesus Like he thought I would respond but um,

I would respond by saying that's an interesting opinion Yeah, yeah because we know that we already know the one sense where John says behold the

Lamb of God He takes away the sins of the world. This is right the Holy Spirit should depend on so he knows he's seen him

So now he's not going to say a few weeks later Was I wrong about the Holy Spirit? Like is this good? Like I'm not sure.

Sorry. Okay. So my other question was There are there definitely have been

Well, I'll ask you a question. Who who who defeated Goliath in the

Old Testament? David But We know it was

God who really defeated but through David So I cannot respond real quick to that point

Yeah, I was just gonna bring up Genesis 3 with that, but go ahead, please Yeah, we can answer a lot of these

Questions twofold the human means that God used was David But God ultimately was the one to bring down Satan God ultimately was the one to bring down Pharaoh, right?

And it's God is ultimately the one to bring down Satan So God uses secondary human means to accomplish his end goal.

Yeah, I definitely believe that and one of the questions I had was Because in Genesis 3 some of the translations have been she and she shall crush the head

I'll give two references to why that's similar to to my you know David defeating

Goliath that it could be references to Mary Because she like Defeated Goliath in one sense who's

Satan but through her humility and her obedience as the new Eve just like Jaw In the book of Jude in the book of Judges, it was two females who both crushed the head of theirs their enemy

So you see that as a possible reference? So some of the energy we're gonna find some we're gonna find some common ground here,

I think you'll like my answer We're not gonna totally on the same side, but I think ultimately the book of Hebrews tells us that That it was through the death of Jesus and I think the death that he everything leading up and around it

That his death he might destroy the one who has power that is the devil now check this out

I think Romans chapter 16 Tells us that it's the body of Christ that continues, you know to trample or crush the head

So I think absolutely The Saints both the Universal Church the

Saints old and New Testament play a part in warring against You know the the great deceiver

So in that sense, I think Mary played a part the same way that all Saints do but I think climactically the that Jesus Christ He is the woman's offspring the one that truly crushes the head of the serpent

So we find a little bit of common ground there Yeah, I believe I would definitely live it to that God is the ultimate he destroyed he defeated

Goliath And just like in the the two females in the Old Testament the heroes heroines of Judith and job

Even though they crushed the head of the enemy That it was actually God working through them.

So I think that's why some of the church fathers. I saw that as a reference Just wondering. What do you think

Jeremiah? like for example if we do take Athanasius who calls Mary the Ark of the New Covenant and says you're greater than the angels and the

Archangels put together a most noble and pure and Pure virgin and st. St.

Augustine who called Mary without sin Ambrose said the pure immaculate one

Hippolytus and Jerome and How do you think? Like regarding their salvation.

I'm sure they will still be saved when they stand before God Having said that will it just be first of all two things

They could either be 100 % right or if they were misled and you know, would they do you think that's just?

Would that be less rewards would that be as a Catholic Christians? We believe that sure sure process.

So I'm glad you asked this question because You had a lot to say in your opening statement about it and this is the thing we you and I could get into a battle a friendly battle of quoting early church fathers canonized

Saints Popes and You know, it's kind of like getting into the you know, my dad can beat up your dad

You know, you can find quotes on both sides to prove your point, but I believe hey

There's a lot of value in studying church history But my fundamental conviction is that history is not a hermeneutic

So I'm more interested to hearing Athanasius and some of these people that believe that I'm interested in hearing their argumentation for showing that Mary had no sin whatsoever because The Apostle Paul tells us in 1st

Thessalonians 5 not to despise prophecies But test all things and hold fast to that which is good and abstain from all forms of evil

So I'm saying let's put Scripture as its highest authority and test any Argumentation and and convictions that Saints had to that ultimate standard.

You know what? I think it's possible that some of these men's might have been toying with the idea and still been saved but the moment they start worshipping

Mary and start adoring her and you using words like veneration I I'm glad I can't see the heart of man because if you were to worship

Mary In a place that's proper for Jesus Christ alone, then that's idolatry of the highest kind So I don't want to be mean by saying that but that's why this type of debate has a lot at stake

All right, that's time That's time right there. All right, Jeremiah, you're up for your 10 -minute cross -revelation of Matthew Matthew thank you so much for being super respectful and I love you

And I hope we can continue to be good friends even after this So that's why

I was so eager to agree to wanting to get on here with you. So Is it possible in your view though that canonized

Saints early church fathers and possibly some popes actually? Differed with Pope Pius the ninth.

Do you think that's a possibility? No, I Definitely do but you know, what's interesting?

I feel that if you look at even the Orthodox Church today They struggle with they teach the

Orthodox Church teaches as the Catholic Church does that Mary was sinless They teach that Mary was sinless that she didn't commit a personal sin and a lovely even in the

Orthodox Church They feel the same about John the Baptist Fill with the Holy Spirit, right, but it's of course only

From God from God who is the one who is able to preserve us from sin to preserve us from folly, right?

Yeah, but like for example, like I think of Romans. I have a follow -up question. I have a follow -up question real quick.

I'm Also, I'm sorry. You're fine. I know I take a while. I know it take a while to answer that.

I'm sorry. Oh You're fine. Oh, so my follow -up question is No, no, you're good because my follow -up question is

Mary's sinlessness Crucial to the gospel message in your opinion. I think if it's a truth if it's true,

I Think it's crucial because everything in the everything every word of God is crucial every word

Pope Pius the ninth Said that you were to be anathema if you rejected how he defined the immaculate conception in all stain of original sin

So I think that carries on to Mary's whole life when you say since he anathematized it that it's

Crucial to not reject that Mary was sinless and there and I think conversely is super important to the gospel message

Is that a fair line of reasoning? I? Think it is. I think a lot of those really are even just for Catholics themselves to give an understanding

That look if you know, this is true, and it's not just based on the church fathers But yes, there was some a disagreement origin.

Like I said origin a trillion. They even struggle with certain things about Christ I think they but John Christ the psalm said dealt, but I mean the

Pope's I still need kind of more specific references, but but If it's if it's the

Pope's trying to say and look if it's based on some of the projections of the early church that the father's the

UM and the word I have a big question where God has Oh And you're fine so since you seem to agree with me that early church fathers and disagreement and we can get more

I mean I got I got the citation for like Pope John the 22nd that said

Mary was in a state of original sin They're disputed, but you've kind of agreed with me that it's very possible that even

Pope's had different Understandings of what Pope Pius the ninth said so here's here's what

I'm getting at is Jude verse 3 says to contend for the faith that was once delivered past tense to the

Saints And so if Mary's sinlessness is so crucial to the gospel Then how could anyone not just Pope's but how could anyone including canonized

Saints and early church fathers? disagree with such a fundamental aspect to the gospel

You know, I think Jude wrote his letter before John's letter to Revelation So in one sense, not everything was passed down yet or not.

Everything was clarified yet. For example when Jesus says to the one who sits on my right and to my left when

James and John were asking like if I'm not talking about secondary doctrine a crucial gospel

Elements, right? So we're talking about Pope Pius the ninth Dogmatizes or anathematizes anyone who denies the

Immaculate Conception Which seems to put some of these early church fathers and these disputed citations of Popes and canonized

Saints Outside of that right and I agree with you. It's it's once delivered past tense

So I'm talking about crucial first -tier issues not Things that we could kind of talk about over coffee and if we're right or wrong, it's it's still okay

Right, well, I don't know 100 % I I think I understand what you're saying, but let's just say for example in Acts 15 when they were all debating about circumcision and nowhere in Holy Scripture that's like it says for all generations 1712 but I'm saying

Peter stands up and says, you know from now on there's no certain like, you know, no circumcision So even though the scriptures

I have a question about that. I have a question about that No, no, you're fine so that actually transitions into my next thought okay, so for you

Could someone have believed that circumcision was necessary? After Jesus death burial resurrection and let's just say at Pentecost with all the

Jews listening to Peter's sermon Calling them to repent and be water baptized, right?

Could a Jew said you know what? I'm gonna believe that and I think it's necessary to to be circumcised to be saved

Can that Jew is that Jew saved or is he missing the gospel message that Peter proclaimed?

Well, according to Peter and Paul like, you know circumcision Well, Paul himself says neither circumcision nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments

But I think in one sense if if I think it's if someone knows I think that's what that would

Pope Pius was saying to like mostly to the Catholic Church Be anathema like to anyone as a

Catholic. This is what the church has taught Not and you know, Jesus says the man of the Holy Scriptures the man so Just to get a clear answer

Would if a person said in Acts 2 after the preaching of Peter, you know what? I believe what he's saying

But you have to still be circumcised to be saved is that person right or wrong and are they saved or lost?

I just want clarity So I know this is a make -believe person, but he's saying

I'm still gonna do it or is he saying you have to be Like you see say I Here's what

I'm getting at. I think it's clear that that person would misunderstand the gospel would not be saved

So my point is Acts 15 clarified that and said hey Judaizers quit messing with the

Gentiles and so they were affirming something that was already heretical And so I'm good.

I want the audience to think about and for you to think about is if Pope Pius the ninth Anathematizes someone that denies the sinlessness of Mary Then that would equally apply to the early church those people that existed beforehand because the

Magisterium's paradigm Is the Jerusalem Council like you're appealing to so I think at that point the

Magisterium is Redefining what a dogma is what anathema is and what excommunication is so I didn't ask a question

But if you'd like to respond that go ahead But but I think I don't think that people were guilty prior to that because even

James one of the Apostles was was wanted for the to be circumcised party So, I mean,

I think it's only beneath the church stood up and because there was debating going on So I think when the church stood up and let me let me let me move on real quick I only have about two and a half minutes and thank you for being super gracious, by the way

You're not sinless, but you're super gracious. Thank you Uh, so this might be a hard question of almost like Okay, if you were to hypothetically it's gonna be tough if you were to hypothetically grant my position of solo scriptura

Do you think that I'm being internally consistent? With your view tonight

Yes Or you you mean I would give you one solo scriptura about or about Mary tonight?

Okay, all right granting my underlining authority solo scriptura Within that my view on Mary just saying scripture alone is the highest authority.

Am I being internally consistent with my answer? I don't

I don't want to say you're I just I I don't want to say like you're inconsistent

I just I just think that this script was a one -sentence do Just kidding So We have

God himself saying I will be the one to put enmity between Mary and her offspring Between Mary and Satan and between her offspring like Jesus as God was so on solo scriptura

You would say I'm misunderstanding that I would say so and even yeah,

I would say that. Okay, that's fine We got about a minute here and this may transition over to our open dialogue, but I would like to start talking about Luke 128

Okay, because the more I studied in preparation for this I realized this was like the verse that proves all the

Marian dogmas and I need to know about it So I would like for us to kind of shift gears towards that and then we're about to switch into an open dialogue

So maybe we can continue that but obviously kind of whatever you want to do so with with 20 seconds left the verse says in Luke 128

Oh Favored one. Okay. We understand. This is a Greek greeting from an angel and so my position is

That this word is used to describe Stephen and Acts chapter 6 and it's also described all believers to ever exist in Ephesians 1

Or Ephesians 1 verse 6. So does this Greek word?

Mean sinlessness or could it mean sinlessness not getting into the verb tenses yet.

What do you think? No Absolutely. I believe it absolutely does but I think what's very crucial is

Stephen was absolutely called full of grace and I think even in Ephesians 1 6 or 7 it says to the one there

Karyotos was also full of grace But we believe in a very special way as in Paul's letter to the

Corinthians He says you have been washed you have been sanctified you have been justified through baptism the washing of the regeneration

But Mary was called to grace before baptism before baptism

Because she was the one in Genesis 3 where God made her to be the pure dwelling place at enmity with Satan So God prepared her just as he did for the

Ark of the Covenant All right, guys, just to let you know, you're currently you're you're now in your 20 -minute open discussion

So if you guys want to carry on this this subject right here, you guys are good to go So I would like to continue talking about this if you're okay with that Matthew So when

I look up in a Greek lexicon for the word For for grace or favored one here.

What I find is to make graceful Charming lovely agreeable to pursue with grace

Compass with favor to honor with blessings Is it fair to say that I'm not seeing anywhere just in the

Greek word itself? That's not the only way we prove doctrine, but at least with the Greek word I'm having trouble of seeing that being a working definition.

Is that fair? Being the present participle of it as one being filled with grace, so there's no there's no lack

There's no lack of grace there. There's no Someone like for example, like when Adam and Eve were born without sin what

God did that so he was actually able to do that again Okay, so I have a question on this

But I'm just saying so Adam and Eve were filled with grace But when they fell when they disobeyed they fell from grace, but they had the fullness of grace prior to their disobedience

So do you think the difference between Luke 128 in Ephesians 1 6 is the perfect passive participle

That's that's how we distinguish all believers being full of grace versus a even more particular grace with Mary well as as the as that word the

Greek is used that tense in Ephesians 1 as one having been Forgiven also,

I'm asking is that the main difference the passive person the passive perfect participle is that the main thing of why we can know that Luke 128 is

Implicitly or explicitly telling us that Mary was full of grace without sin. Is that what you're saying?

It's it's the passive perfect participle. No, I just think sometimes the way the way it's used the way it's seen

For that particular word to be used is okay, very applicable to Ephesians 1 6 which has the same

Same kind of defining moment for the believer Once they've been made pure Through but that was done to but believers but believers aren't sinless.

Are they? No, but once you are baptized you you stand

Righteous justice and justified and sanctified so it's what happens after why can't Mary Why can't

Mary be full of grace the same way like all believers by faith? But She Well, I think that's because Jesus took flesh before Jesus took flesh in her womb and Before it's not just faith.

It's through baptism, which washes sanctifies and that's why Mary was Saluted as being full of grace.

Stephen was Stephen was full of grace after baptism So were the so that's why

Paul says after baptism a wash arise and wash away your sins Even you've been washed you've been sanctified you've been justified.

That's what takes place at baptism But Mary was saluted as full of grace even prior to that because as now very specific about who the

Ark of the Covenant of old was to be designed because he was To dwell there in a special way a pure dwelling place for him

The same was done to Mary by God's grace not by her very nature, but by God's grace

That's why Mary says he who is mighty has done to me might things Yeah, so Just to be just to make sure

I'm understanding Are you saying the passive perfect participle is what distinguishes

Mary from all believers? Or are you saying she has been graced the same way that all others have

I? Believe it's both but the only difference is that Which takes place when did it take place for Mary as opposed when did it take place for believers?

When did it take place? How would we know that? Well, because Mary was not because Mary was called full of grace before baptism

Whereas whereas believers again and Paul says you've been washed you've been sanctified you've been justified

Arise and wash away your sins So he calls those who have been by the power of the regeneration of the

Holy Spirit washed sanctified justified That's when they've been full. That's why Stephen was full of grace

It's what happens after baptism that you know is where Paul gives warnings to certain

Christians saying, you know Warned you as I warned you before if you tend to go off the route or stray You know this in Ephesians 1

In Ephesians 1 does it tell us that the all believers to exist they are full of grace after their baptism

Or is it before the foundation of the world? God had prepared them for the foundation of the world to do so, but if everything has to take place, too

I mean Jesus has to die on the cross in one sense Would you agree that Ephesians 1 is the context of both before the foundation of the world and then refers to Believers being full of grace the same way that Mary is but does it say haven't been made sure?

It's the same Greek word that's being used The only difference is that Ephesians 1 6 doesn't use the passive perfect participle and I'm unclear if you're saying that's the

Distinguishing factor between Mary and all believers because if you're saying that that really is off the table, it doesn't really matter

I'm saying then it's indistinguishable for me on solo scriptura with scripture being the highest authority that I should look at Mary Different that she was somehow

Preemptively saved from the stain of original sin. I'm saying rather if she is saved by grace like all believers

Then I'm not gonna look at her in a unique light She was blessed to you know have

Jesus in the womb but salvation wise She's just like everybody else. So you don't put a ton of stock into the perfect passive participle.

Well, um You know, I put it that's okay If you're not I'll move on to another question that I have but I was prepared to talk more about We're different I think

I definitely think I've never seen a church father yet I've never seen a church teaching yet or a papal bull ever say

Mary's to be worshipped as God alone is to be worshipped I see Mary's to be given special reverence Just like Elizabeth when you know, she says who am

I that the mother of my Lord should come to me Okay, I know some people have tried to say well, she was just talking about the

Lord Well, the English has it who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me just as David says

I have a follow -up Interesting, there's no oh, sorry, just So in in in your canon

Sirach chapter 18 verse 17 We see the passive purse purse passive perfect participle used with the same

Greek word In this way indeed does not a word surpass a good gift.

Both are found to be a gracious person now this is in a context where God is creator and This particular literature is saying hey, you got to have the right spirit of giving alms

And so nothing in that context would make this generic person to be sinless

So it seems like and I don't mean I'm not trying to be mean when I say this But it seems like special pleading when it's being used of Mary in a near a typhal sense

Because as far as I can see she is saved by grace through faith Just like everybody else but it just seems like even in your own canon that type of passive perfect Participle is being used consistently not in a way that she's full of grace meaning sinlessness

But that she was a recipient of grace not a dispensers of faith or a mediatrix of grace

But she just like everybody else is receiving grace Well, I definitely believe that We said

I definitely believe that when the church teaches Absolutely, Mary is saved by God's grace

There's no I'm saying the same way that all believers are I think

Then you would have to one sense. I know you you're not happy with the Ark of the Covenant Like in the comparisons, would you be able to say just let's just say for example, you say the

Ark of the Covenant Would you say the Ark of the Covenant is no different than any other object? You know, is it was it just like just like any other object.

Would you say? Well, you're getting into a philosophical problem because it shares in a oneness with everything that exists it is created

But it is particularly different than all other concepts, so you're left in this problem of okay, what's the ultimate authority that binds types together and how do you know when the type stops my

Assertion is let scripture make the types for us. Adam is a type of Jesus Paul without question makes that case 1st

Peter chapter 3 tells us that the Ark is not like Mary but a but is a type of salvation like Jesus Scripture again is clear on what where types begin and where types stop

But when it's just up to well, we see these six parallels and they're inescapable Well, do you think that Joseph Jesus is adopted earthly father?

Do you think he was sinless or assumed into heaven? There have been many scholars who believe that you know similar to John the

Baptist as opposed to right his conception was Because what do you think? He's being?

To the eternal father. I think that God in a very special way like with John the Baptist I Think John about Joseph was born

Joseph Yeah, I'm so sorry. Joseph was born with original sin, but there was a time within his womb similar to John the

Baptist How would you know? Well, the church has never made a proclamation on but with with with But without a doubt,

I mean like if you say this like for example, yeah, we can talk about scripture without a doubt I mean if you really can stand before God and just say, you know

Like you we just say let's let's go to Holy Scripture the written the written word without a doubt Which is very holy and authoritative

If you say Luke says if he's trying to make the greatest comparison The Ark of the

Covenant traveled the land of Hebron second Samuel Mary traveled the land of Hebron the

Ark of the Covenant David David felt unworthy in the Ark of the Lord Elizabeth felt unworthy in the

Ark of the Lord David danced David danced for joy at the Ark of the Lord upon Mary's greeting

John the Baptist danced for joy the Ark of the Covenant remained for three months. I mean it was there was there was literally 30 to 40 church, right?

It's inescapable parallels, right? But also like if you look at John John John the

Apostle in Revelation says behold I see a great sign the Ark of the Covenant a woman I met you

I have another question if you want to change topics a little bit. I'm sorry to cut you off by the way

No problem. No problem So and just to briefly answer I will stand before God One day and totally cast myself at the mercy of Jesus Christ That's who

I'm solely looking to not looking to another person now while I'm on earth I may ask other believers to pray for me and you know

Confess my sin to them and and there'll be healing in that but when I when I pray Ultimately, it's to God.

And so I'm just saying I absolutely feel With the greatest assurance that I am saved that first John 513

I can know that I have eternal life because of what Jesus Christ has done in me So my next question is when we continue in Mary's Magnificat She acknowledged that God looked on her humble estate

Are you familiar with that Greek word? Yes lowliness

Okay, but I it doesn't always it doesn't always have to mean moral guilt just for example As you brought that up before there was two ways to look at certain

Greek words For example, I think in 1st Corinthians 3 one Greek word could be used for punishment and one

Greek word can also be used for Not just pun it could be so it doesn't have to this it doesn't have to necessarily so it also mean humility

Right. Absolutely. So here so here's here's the Greek word the the syntactic domain of the word

I think you agree with it This is what I found and I would encourage anybody to go on somewhere like blue letter Bible Go to this word and and look at the definition spiritual abasement

Leading one to perceive and lament his moral littleness or guilt

Now this is what I was gonna ask you can you provide me an example in the

Old Testament when somebody's praying to God that uses that word and They are either sinless or they're not confessing their sin in the same prayer

Well, I can't compare anybody in the Old Testament to Mary Exactly one sentence

Jesus couldn't you just couldn't compare anybody to John the Baptist in one sense so but I think with Mary like I said having been called full of grace before baptism as opposed to Stephen and the believers who

Yeah, I'm Maybe we're just totally different Sorry It's okay.

Sure. Sure. So This is how the New Testament uses that word in Philippians 3 it talks about our lowly or Vile bodies that one day we will see a heavenly glorious body in the book of James.

It talks about humility one that has understood their sinfulness before God and Then I brought this up in my opening statement and I just I kind of want your thoughts about it.

It's Psalm 25 David is praying to God in the same manner that Mary is lifting up his soul to God praising him for salvation mercy confessing his personal sin and he uses that same

Greek word when we look in the Greek Septuagint of spiritual abasement So, how can

I look at Mary pray that way uses these terminologies and conclude all but she had no personal sin

Well, if you compared murder and adultery from David You know, of course, he's got examples there's their personal sins, right

Personal sins, but if you could actually provide personal sins of Mary, I mean here we have Mary someone who's very humble very lowly

You know, some people say Oh Mary was some Pope say but she's not she's not just lowly and humble

Like she says later in her prayer. This word is specific to express spiritual abasement before God It's much stronger and doesn't carry the general meaning of humility like she does later

It's it's actually the spiritual basement absolutely without a doubt because without God Mary is nothing

Mary is nothing that this is her. This is her sickness is her Savior but there's nowhere and there's no evidence of how it happened to be more guilt a confirmation of more guilt when you you know, it's just You mean my opening statement did not convince you to join

Protestantism. I Thought about I just wasn't sure which church

Hey Reform Baptist, baby Yeah, yeah, no, but I think that I've asked you a ton of questions here and we got about four minutes

Do you want to ask me any I don't want to hog this time. I'm sorry if I have No, no, no, please not at all.

I think it's I think it's excellent questions, but I really do I do think that Mary in her humility like knowing that that You know, she is

Like a mere Adam as opposed to to the beauty and the wonder and power of God.

So she's very humble She's very very pure. She was even because she was so humble.

She was still like Like when when the Archangel gave us his hail for the grace, she was troubled

Yeah, you have a question Matthew My question no,

I'm just trying to talk like open discussion. Okay. I have another question with me Yeah, just talking about the moral abasement like one could be like The only reason

I think is the Catholic Church similar to what I said about the Bible when I first opened up The Bible I wanted to put the word into a place that was pure clean and purified and I think it's what

God did with Mary and Having her cause because God so I have a question myself

Put enmity between the woman and Satan in between her offspring and Satan. So God did that go ahead.

Sure. So Romans 5 verse 14. This was a huge kind of big point in my opening

Where we read yet death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam Who was a type of the one who was to come?

So I think this verse kind of gives us a few notes here for one we read that death reigned from Adam to Moses Now people sinned differently than Adam because he had direct revelation from God in Genesis 2

But they sinned ultimately without law But we see I think we can agree I want to see if we agree here and then

I have a follow -up question Can we agree on the universality of sin of all men from Adam to Moses?

Well, we have to take out the human nature of Jesus we have to take out we have to take out individual

No, all of man from Adam to Moses. Can we agree that there is universality of sin?

There wasn't someone who is sin less in that time period But like I was just saying to you

Do is an individual who has severe? mental

Challenges and brain traumatic injuries Are there are they sinners before God a baby's in the womb

Paul says if a baby dies in the womb Paul says in a letter to Romans Jacob and Esau They didn't do anything in the womb before they didn't eat a good or bad.

So we're talking about personal sin there But of course, we know there's an exception in the human nature of Jesus Christ And there's exception for those who have babies who are in the womb that has sadly passed in the womb or days later

They haven't committed sin. So Paul was actually talking about Jew and Gentile He's saying all have sinned

Jew and Gentile just as when Paul and five walls letter to Romans chapter 5 verse 18

I think he says all all mankind shall be saved by the judge. I comment on that.

I was about to run out So I'll kind of make three points

So babies in the womb. I do not think they have personal sin I think that they are made sinners by virtue of being conceived in sin the way that Psalm 51 says so they are made

Sinners the way that Romans 5 describes, but I agree. They don't have personal sin, but they are made sinners

And then I would quickly follow up and say that's a type of standard that Mary doesn't qualify for So even if I were to grant that Mary doesn't qualify

What I was getting at with the universality of sin from Adam to Moses Paul uses the definite article

He says the one who is to come so since he uses the definite article to describe the uniqueness of Jesus coming

Then that would exclude Mary because the definite article is being applied to Jesus so and then the last point here

Marlon is that if you said in your one of your rebuttals if the all means all and all of sin and Romans 3 then all to be saved has to be

Universalism essentially I would say but that whole Romans chapter 4 thing

Right in between those chapters described to us that it's not by our works that we can be kind of righteous

But it's faith apart from work. So everyone who believes in that fashion

Those all men will be saved. So we're out of time. All right

You like how I did that I didn't get

I didn't get a chance to talk about Romans 2 where Paul says God shall give to everyone according to one's works All right

Great cross -examination and great open discussion appreciate you guys. So now we're going to transition to closing remarks once again

These are five minute closings That said Matthew you're up for your five -minute closing Okay, sure,

I'm just like I said, I'm very grateful the opportunity Marlon's been very gracious and And Jeremiah as well.

I do think like I said, for example, I do think there's a difference And I do think there's a comparison between the

Ark of the Lord in the Old Testament and Mary as the new Ark of the Lord which I truly believe the six parallels that Luke was making is

And even John says I see a woman clothed with the Sun. I see a sign the Ark of the

Covenant So John's confirming what Luke was confirming that Mary is the Ark of the Lord and that and that as God Prepared the

Ark of the Lord a very special way to be a pure dwelling place for him to dwell that Mary was created an even greater special way because it says in Hebrews the old is surpassed by the new and just as Dave Jesus is the new

Adam. He's the better Adam He's the obedient Adam and Mary is the new Eve.

She's the better Eve. She's the obedient Eve even Saint John Chrysostom says

Death through Eve and life through Mary because Mary's yes But Mary was saluted as the

Archangel Gabriel is being full of grace a prior to baptism because God prepared her

Filled with grace There was no lacking in grace Even prior to baptism because God prepared her to be the new and pure dwelling place of the

Most High Just as he did in the Ark of the Covenant of old and as David felt unworthy

As the Ark of the Lord approached him so Elizabeth who was blameless before God and keeping the commandments

She felt unworthy as the mother of the Lord approached her And God himself

God is the one who one sense confirms that Mary is sinless God says that because in Genesis 3 he says

I myself will put enmity between you and he's talking to the servant to Satan because I will put enmity between you and the woman and between Her offspring and your offspring.

So God's saying that that he did it He put enmity between Satan and Mary and her offspring

Jesus Christ Jesus by his very nature as God the all -holy Perfect pure God of all holiness and might our new high priest and Passover lamb

He's at enmity with Satan by his very nature But God is the one who put that enmity between Mary and Satan and she instead of giving in to Eve's Like Eve instead of giving it to Satan's snares

Eve disobeyed Mary did not Mary was full of grace Mary had never admitted Mary admitted she needed a

Savior without a doubt We all need save we all need Savior because we have to be saved from from sin

But Mary was being full of called full of grace even prior to baptism which removes sin

So as God prepared the Ark of the Covenant to be pure dwelling place God also intervened in the life of Mary who was prepared to be full of grace to give birth to the author of grace

So God did that it was God's Goes back to Jude 123 to the one who has the power to keep us from falling as he's going to do that to the rest of the church

When it comes our time to be pure before him holy and spotless without blemish That's what

Mary was by God's grace to be a pure dwelling place If you know the Ark of the Covenant was the holiest object on earth

And if the oldest surpassed by the new how much more holy was was Mary by God's grace all by God's grace but her cooperation with that's great as well because um

Jesus said when the woman said, you know, blessed are those who blessed is she who?

gave birth to you and nursed you Jesus says even greater rather the greater the ones who do the will of God and who not just hear the

Word of God would Do it and who st. Augustine commented on that and he said Jesus was giving praise to his mother because not only was she blessed

Forgiving birth to the Messiah. She was even greater in her discipleship because Mary was obedient She was humble.

She was pure and she was obedient and I think that it's a just have just under a minute left, but um, it's um,

I Think it's just all like like the Song of Songs the book of the Song of Songs It talks about one alone is my dove one alone is my perfect one the dear one of her parents and so many church fathers

Saw that it says and all all of them shall call her blessed and that's why

Mary says all generations shall call me blessed She is the one alone the perfect one the dove the spotless one as confirmed in Genesis 3 15 who's at enmity with Satan her and her offspring

Jesus Christ and She who was the humble handmaid of the Lord and whom all generations shall call blessed

And like I said, even Elizabeth felt blameless felt on who's blameless before God felt unworthy in the presence of the mother of the

Lord So Mary is never venerated as being God not at all, but all the ages angels all the

Saints one sense Have give has great reference for her because Thank you, all right, thank you

Matthew for that closing remarks All right, Jeremiah, you're up for your closing statement. Well, I just want to read to you

Genesis 3 15 God is speaking. I will and I believe this is the sovereign Yahweh I am

I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring

He oh my goodness. It's talking about the coming offspring. Not Mary this promised seed

He is the one that will crush the serpents head But when you're reading a tradition into the text and parallels, you know count as everything even over exegesis

And what the Bible actually says you can make the verse say whatever you want and Matthew I say that with with grace

I love you, and we're gonna continue to talk and I look forward to that But I just want people to understand that verse in no way shape or form says that Mary was sinless now when we get into the parallels and Typologies you can make the

Bible say whatever you want. You can build a case that John the Baptist was without sin Joseph Jesus's earthly father was without sin.

It's anyone's game You might can find similarities between the

Ark of the Covenant in and Mary that doesn't mean she's sinless and When we start talking about Mary being full of grace that same

Greek word is used to describe all All -believers of all time even before the foundation of the world

You can't put a lot of stock into the passive perfect participle Because even on Rome's own terms they apply that to mean a generic person that's gracious that is kind towards others and giving

That doesn't prove that Mary was sinless. It's not even found in the word itself and You know,

I want to emphasize this point again to Matthew you start talking about how babies in the womb don't have personal sin Well, they're still made sinners by virtue of being conceived out of their mother's sin even

King David omitted that and Romans 5 tells us that the many the all who are in Adam are made sinners

Babies do not Bypass that they are made sinners. They they are not sinners because they will sin

But they will sin because they are sinners And so Jesus is the unique one that bypassed

Adam's sin We see that he uses the definite article you got the universality of sin between Adam all the way from Adam to Moses and it talks about the one who is to come

He is going to be uniquely different from Adam and all of his posterity. So I want

I provided many citations of early church fathers disagreeing about Mary committing sin many of them did believe that You can quote any church father to prove your case or you can go to the

Popes and you can dispute the citations There is a list and encourage you to go to Alpha and Omega ministries

They provide the citations of the seven popes that did and actually teach that Mary was conceived in original sin

And that that provides a problem even on Rome's own terms with authority So I kind of want to wind down and say that history is not a hermeneutic

History is valuable But just because you can point to someone who believes something

Anybody can do that show me the argument that they gave to justify their conclusion

I'm much more interested in hearing that and then testing their argument with the Word of God that cannot be broken

It's the Word of God that's breathed out from God himself The Scripture is and that equips us for every good work makes us complete

I even think that correct interpretation is a good work So the Scripture equips us for that The Apostle Paul says don't despise teachings don't despise prophecies, but test everything.

How do we test something? We test it with the Word of God How can you test alleged oral traditions with the written

Word of God that was passed down and guess what? They will not contradict there was an oral gospel and it's the same one that was written

That's what 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 teaches us. I Just want to leave you with Mary was not

Sinless she was not the mother of God She was not the Queen of Heaven according to the

Word of God. She was the mother of our Lord That does not mean that she is the mother of the triune

God. She did not eternally exist Mary simply was the mother of Jesus humanity She plays no role in the redemption of sinners.

She does not intercede for anyone or hear anyone's prayers but Mary is a model of faith someone who did show humility and Submission to God's will she is an excellent example of all believers who respond in faith

Obediently and joyfully to the Word of God Solus Christus Christ alone is

King of Kings Christ alone is our great high priest Christ alone is our Redeemer Christ alone is the mediator between God and man.

This is the gospel truth Christ alone was sinless For his sake he made him who knew no sin so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Thank you All right, guys. Good stuff. Good stuff. Then Another great debate there.

I appreciate you guys for that. All right, so now we're gonna jump into this crosses us not cross -domination

We don't want that fire again. What the fire around again? We're gonna go up to this the Q &A All right, so we have a whole bunch of questions here and let's not waste any time.

Let's get right into it Let's get it All right, this first question for you

Matthew. Did Jesus die for Mary? If so, what for if she was sinless?

Jesus did die for Jesus died for all humanity. Jesus died for all humanity to take advantage of his blood but just as Jeremiah was saying that from the foundations of the world

Absolutely, Mary was saved by God's grace by his precious blood, but it was applied in a very special special special way

Just as it was a pre -emptive act That's why like again. I think

Jeremiah had read that said that Genesis 3 is very obvious.

It says God says I will put enmity between you and the woman between your offspring and hers so without a doubt he just Jeremiah took away the woman or and just put there her seed

But God says the woman and her offspring or an energy was safe. So it was God's doing pre -emptive act

She was saved by God's grace of the Blessed Mother. She was saved by the once -perfect sacrifice of Christ, but in a pre -emptive way

All right Jeremiah How much time do I have to respond? Yeah, I forgot to mention that both of you guys have one minute to respond

So just briefly you can't get that interpretation just on Genesis 3 15 alone that would contradict

Paul's argument that the unique one who's different from Adam and all of his prosperity was to come after you know,

The universality of sin from Adam to Moses and this is this is my big case that I would encourage anybody

You can't take one verse out of context and build a whole theology on that in Luke chapter 1

We read all the immediate context we need to know how Mary meant God my

Savior verse 28 She was full of grace the same way that all believers are verse 30 Mary found grace or favor with God She was a recipient of grace.

Just like all believers are in Ephesians 2. She is called blessed among women. This is a Hebrew Expression that was used of other women in the

Old Testament It wasn't just unique to Mary and this is one of my favorite verses here verse 45

Blessed is she who believed That there would be a fulfillment that was spoken to her from the

Lord Mary was saved by grace through her faith in the coming Messiah the same way Abraham was and all believers are

All right next question and this is They got two parts of this question here.

That's for Mary Kaiser. What's up, buddy? How you doing, man? All right this for you Matthew Do you agree with Pappas?

Scholastics cano and bail that Christ. Oh my see y 'all go get me to struggle with the name and Mary bail you're off a bail

Merrick you're all for this man. You go pussy names on here like that. All right, so I would give it a go cry

Solstom cross awesome Eusebius regimus Remedius Ambrose Augustine Lill democenus.

Oh my goodness, man I'm Teddy's names apart man, but it's all good

Bernard Beatty Anselm or erroneous martyr st. Anthony and dr.

Bonaventure all rejected the Immaculate Conception Do you agree that all those people?

Rejected the Immaculate Conception Matthew No, I don't.

I mean, I think what happens was they did argue about when life began As a matter of fact up Ambrose calls

Mary the Immaculate One so I mean and I think Augustine says she's without sin

Ethan Athanasius calls her the the one who was all pure and Ephraim calls her without spot or stain

Just like as in the Lord except one by grace one by nature But I think it was definitely a discussion about when life took place

Was it at conception was it when the soul was infused? So, I think definitely many were at odds with that st

Thomas Aquinas himself was but I think before he died he changed his mind and he said that Mary was the

Immaculate Conception based on when life Life took took place. So there was definitely questions about it

All right, Jeremiah Well, I appreciate the question because this this article that he's referring to we talked before the debate

This is undeniable evidence that there are so many people before 1854 that denied the

Immaculate Conception. I agree with Matthew, but there was discussion But where they landed was outside the definition of what

Pope Pius the ninth gave and so this goes back to an earlier point Rome has a problem.

That's why most Catholic apologists like Robert St. Genesis bite the bullet. Yes, there were church fathers there were

Popes that have taught that Mary sinned and So what Matthew probably needs to start thinking about is not trying to defend and go to each one of these citations all we need is one and there's mounds of them to show that that people disagree with Pope Pius the ninth coming and so my point is

You know, who do we believe which early church father? They all got it wrong. We need to go back to the

Word of God That's the ultimate authority in our lives All right

And here's a question for you Jeremiah What did the angel Gabriel mean when he referred to Mary as full of grace in Luke 1 28?

Well, I think I've been saying it all night He was greeting her as someone who has received grace from God This is the same word used to describe all believers of all time

Why would we think that Mary received a grace different a Salvific grace different from all believers.

She believed in the promised coming one She's a recipient of grace. These are all things that describe all believers.

So What Matthew didn't do and I was expecting him to do was try to make a big case about the perfect passive participle

That's what typical Roman apologists try to really put their stock in That's the difference between Ephesians 1 6 because if you agree that She's just like the rest of humanity.

Well, then the arguments done She saved the same way that everybody else you got to make an argument that she saved differently

But the problem is even on Roman Catholicism's own terms Sirach 18 verse 17

Uses that term to apply to a generic gracious person not someone who's sinless

So once again, Mary was greeting Mary as a child of God Someone was full of grace the same way like all believers are all right, and Here's another question for you

Jeremiah coming for Jeremy Wong. Jeremy won't get to respond to that. Oh, I'm sorry

Yeah, go ahead Matthew. You got it. I got you. Thank you. Sorry about that. Go ahead Matthew. Let me go back to that question

I'm sorry about that No, that's okay. I do I do As a

Catholic Christian, like I said love Holy Scripture And I do believe that I do hope that there are those who were

Listening that they will be going back to Genesis 3 15 now Jeremiah says it's only the seed only only the seed but God himself says between the woman and Satan and the offspring and Satan so it's not just the seed

It's the woman and the offspring at at enmity God is the one who put the enmity between Satan and the woman between the offspring

You have to read it to take out the woman. It's just that's actually just like whiting out the sacred word

But that's why Mary was called full of grace because as God prepared the Ark of the Covenant to be his pure dwelling place

It's exactly what happened with Mary Mary was saluted as by the Archangel Gabriel was being full of grace

Even before baptism would remove sin and that's why everyone else Stephen and all the other believers

Have been made full of grace through baptism the cleansing waters of Christ That's why Paul said you've been washed sanctified and justified but Mary was done so prior by God's pre -emptive act

You all knew greater Ark of the Covenant as prior to the oath All right.

Thank you both. All right, and this question is for you Jeremiah Thank you, Jeremy. Jeremy wrong is actually a patreon.

Thank you. Thank you for supporting ministry Jeremy wrong And here's a question for you Jeremiah. Would you trust all the doctrines of their early church fathers such as necessity?

of water baptism yeah, so Great question when you're referencing

John 3 5, you know what? Let's go to John 3 5 Jesus answered truly truly

I say to you unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God Can't take verses out of context

I've noticed that every works -based system will go to this to try to prove their point John is not talking about water baptism

He is talking about the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit This is paralleled with Ezekiel 36 that God Almighty He will take out that that stony heart and he will give you a heart of flesh

This is a spiritual cleansing in the immediate context So it's interesting that we're talking about baptism because I'm not purposely not addressed

Matthew's points about baptism I just I find it interesting that Mary is is existing during a unique time period

Kind of an Old Covenant Old Testament time frame So she is kind of under the umbrella of circumcision

Of course, she had faith in Jesus before the time of baptism, right?

but we would fully expect for Stephen to have been a baptized believer who

Experienced the grace of God the same way that Old Testament saints did before the law came before they were circumcised

That's what the grace is talking about with Mary So baptism is important for believers after they've been justified before God Almighty to obey to step in obedience to that command

All right, Matthew any thoughts? I Just find it interesting that Jeremiah keeps saying people take it out of context, but his interpretation is right

But everybody else is not so without a doubt that the early church fathers saw

Yeah, it's a baptismal regeneration, it's up and John 3 5 Jeremiah again took away the water.

He just added the spirit But just like if you took away the woman in Genesis 3, but just had kept the offspring he took away

The water and just said kept the spirit, but that's exactly what happens. We're in That's why you know

Peters Peter says. Oh, no to them to the Ethiopian eunuch says look there is water what to prevent you from being baptized

And that's why you can't fall in his letter to the Corinthians says you have been washed You've been sanctified you've been justified and relies to wash away your sins in baptism

So if you want the water and spirit, so it's not just a spirit It's the water and spirit God works through together and that's exactly what many of the church fathers help

All right Here's a question for you Matthew Do you agree with Pope Pius the ninth that whoever rejects the doctrine of Immaculate Conception should be condemned

No, no, I don't but I truly believe that similar to what? What I think the

Pope is actually writing that for for Catholic the Catholic community Saying if you know, this is the church has made this like for example, we talked about You know many in the early church debated over circumcision

You know, but Peter stood up and the circumcision was no longer necessary So I think at that point if you know that circumcision is the new ruling of the church

If you know, it's right and you go against it that maybe that you're you may be in peril But I think we always have to rely on God's mercy, but if you know something is revealed in the word

Whether be written or the manifestation of the will of God is revealed for the church given the authority

I think if you know exactly that it's right and you go against it It's almost rebellion against the church or the authority and the

Word of God that you will you have a you could be in peril All right,

Jeremiah any thoughts Well, I do agree or disagree with Pope Pius the ninth that's no surprise to anyone but Matthew's answer is interesting because all the early church fathers all these canonized saints and Popes no matter how much you want to try to dispute

That's a hard road to go down, but they are part of the universal Catholic Church now

I tried to demonstrate in my opening a rebuttal that if you fully believed in circumcision was necessary to be

Saved and acts to at Pentecost after Peter declared, you know his sermon Well, then you were you were not saved you were believing in a false gospel

Paul Anathematized anybody that did not believe in the gospel. He preached guess what that was the same gospel even before his conversion

I'm seeing that the Popes and the Magisterium that they are redefining terms

Anathema reaches into the past and says look at all this revelation that God has given us sufficiently for the gospel for salvation

And when Matthew says that my interpretation, you know accusing me and I it's all good But my interpretation is right and everybody else is wrong

Well, you got to employ the grammatical historical method of interpretations words have meaning in their context

So you got to show me where I'm being inconsistent. You can't just appeal to someone that says all they believe that Well, what's their argument?

How are they employing this? necessity this necessary hermeneutic

All right, and Here's another question for you

Matthew, thank you Robert for the question Robert good every time

Jeremiah on you know, Robert go show up. Hey, we're buds. We're all right.

Good stuff Good stuff. All right question for you Matthew on it from the Syrian. Is it not true?

He believed Mary was Panagia all holy at her water baptism and others believed it.

It was it was it was at the annunciation there's another part to this this uh this question as well and This is a quote from the source that he quoted or that he's getting his question from Where is it?

From if from the Syrian handmaid and a daughter of blood and water

Am I whom you redeemed and baptized? What do you say

Matthew? I don't know this. I don't know the specifics of that I really don't because I know there's there's three ways of looking at Mary that for example like that Mary had

Mary even similar to John the Baptist with John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb

Let's just take that for example So did John the Baptist grow in the Holy Spirit grow in the Holy Spirit was he still filled?

Was he always filled with the Holy Spirit? So I think Ephraim does talk about Mary being without without staying and I think he talks about several forces of Mary's life where she grew in that holiness, but he never said that Mary was sinful and committed personal sin

Alright any thoughts Jeremiah? I Do and this is when you interact with Robert you're about to get a really good robust Engagement, so he wrote a book by the way on Can't remember the name but on the you know was

Mary sinless and he makes a case that no Mary sin He's he's in disagreement with the early church

And and with me being a reformed Protestant me and Robert being a latter -day saint

We disagree on almost everything under the Sun, but we're like our pigs flying. We agree on Mary being a sinner

So I just I want to tell people about his book go check it out and Matthew's response to the question

I think demonstrates how when you let the the typologies And you you really are not being clear with the definitions of the

Greek words that are given You can make scripture say whatever you want The grammatical historical method of interpretation is a necessary hermeneutic we the way that we communicate and use language

Depends on words having definition in the context in which they mean so that's why we have to appeal to the

Greek lexicon That's why we appeal to broader context and you can't just say well

There's these parallels and we make a didactic case for them All right, here's a question for both of you

Thank You Marianne for the question Is sinning and being a sinner the same thing?

Is a Christian still a sinner after he or she has been born? again So I'm not sure

Matthew been getting hit hard. So Jeremiah you got it, man it's hard to see the question on my end, but is is

Sinning and being a sinner the same thing. I try to distinguish what I meant earlier we sin

Because we are sinners now the Apostle Paul made such a strong case in Romans 5

No one escapes being made a sinner a sinner Except the one who is to come and that is

Jesus Christ. So Babies will sin personally once they develop and you know have these cognitive

Abilities they will sin because they are made sinners That's why even babies are totally depraved from the room and they for their salvation

I believe it's a sovereign act of God's grace to save them the same way for the rest of humanity so there's a distinction after believers are regenerated and are justified before God in God's sight positionally

We are declared righteous, but relationally we still war against sin.

We are simultaneously both just and Sinners, I don't know the

Latin for that All right, Matthew any thoughts. Oh Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you. I do believe that through baptism through water baptism We're also wash away your sins.

You've been you've been watched you've been sanctified you've been justified. So we are Justified and sanctified in God's eyes, but if we look at the author of Hebrews He says to those among you who sin deliberately and he's talking to he's talking to Christians He's talking to those who haven't baptized you talking to those who have faith

Paul warns over and over again He goes if you commit adultery if you commit murder if you act in a way, that's he's taught

He's warning Christians who've been baptized and who had faith in Christ He says if you sin like this, you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven

So he's just warning that we have God's grace God can keep us from falling just like he said did

Mary Mary is the foretold woman in Genesis at MIT with her Satan she and her offspring

Jesus Christ the one who was full of grace prior to baptism. Yes, we can definitely You can definitely sin afterwards

But God's mercy is great. Repentance is what we need Amen All right

Another question here. That's for both of you guys again Question for both is believing Mary is sinless

It's believing Mary is sinless or not damnable. I Believe he may be is believing

Mary is sinless or not damnable. Maybe he's trying to say is believing Mary sinless

Damnable or not damnable. What are your thoughts Matthew? Well, I was trying to understand what

Jeremiah was saying before I apologize. I'm not sure if I misunderstood it But when you were talking about like example when the

Pope Pope Pius the ninth declared that So he was declaring an anathema upon everybody prior to that I don't think that's the case because in one sense because I don't think

Peter was declaring the Apostle James to be anathema because of what he held to be like so I'm just saying that They made it up.

They debated over circumcision and it was many it was and Peter stood up and said it's no longer necessary So it was that the church had made that definitive anything prior to that If James believed in that and many others of the

Jewish peoples, but they weren't anathema ties I think they were so just because the church had made that decision the manifold wisdom of God is revealed to the church

So I think similar moral into yes, you're right It could be debatable a lot of the debate was not so much did

Mary sin But when does the when does life take place? Immaculate conception when the soul is infused or when the church stood up and made the announcement like in Acts 15

It was only then that everyone was held to the accountability of that truth revealed by God All right,

Jeremiah So a lot of things have been said and I can't see the heart of man

This is what truly anathema ties as somebody in their heart if they trust in anything

Other than Jesus Christ alone So that means you can have a bad doctrine that includes works

But in your heart if you're trusting in Jesus solely and you can be saved even in spite of your bad doctrine

But the moment that somebody is trusting in Jesus plus anything else That is what is worthy of anathema that that opposes vehemently opposes the gospel of grace and so, you know

Matthew's been saying that you got Anathemas you can fall from grace earlier.

He's in all these passages Hebrews 10 This is referring to professing Christians that habitually sin and when he reads 1st

Corinthians 6 But you were washed That's not talking about water baptism That's the washing and renewal of the

Holy Spirit the way that Paul talks about in Titus 3 5. It's not talking about baptism Of course when the

Holy Spirit regenerates you you're gonna be sanctified You're gonna be set apart from sin and then in that sense you will be sanctified before God You'll be set apart from the world and you'll be just in his sight.

None of these passages support a works based System and when he says the circumcised is what

James held to his major Affiliation was with the circumcised that is a term used for the

Jews if the Jews after Jesus's death burial resurrection and Peter's sermon Believed in salvation in Jesus Christ by faith

Plus you have to be circumcised then that's a different gospel if they're trusting in their circumcision along with having faith in Jesus Of course, they would have been anathematized

All right All right, here's Another couple more questions, then we'll wrap this up a question for Chuck Chuck.

Thank you for the question Chuck to Jeremiah What is your interpretation of Genesis chapter 3 verse 14 to 15?

Do you believe it is a messianic verse and do you believe the woman is married the mother of Jesus?

Great question. So I already talked about this a little bit So I won't read it but If you include verse, oh he included 14 and 15.

Well, hey go on to 16 because that's important, too I do think this is a messianic verse.

I do think the woman is Alluding to Mary but not in terms of being sinless

And the reason why I think it's an allusion to Jesus is because the seed belongs to the woman

Not the male not Adam seed. So this is unique in terms of a seed belonging to a woman

This is a great verse to go with Isaiah 7 14 prophesying that a virgin will conceive a child

But the reason why I bring up verse 16 is when it says I surely will multiply your pain in childbearing

Well, a lot of Roman Catholics believe that childbearing is a punishment for original sin now on Matthew's view

He reads Revelation 12 the woman to be Mary and it explicitly says the woman will engage in childbearing and have deep pain

Agony in giving birth. I see a contradiction once again on Rome's own view there

All right, Matthew Matthew any thoughts? Yeah, I'm glad Jeremiah admitted it's messianic because he definitely says

God again I mean you can't you can't take it that way just out of context

You can't white out white out the Holy Scriptures. God says I will put enmity between you and the woman

Between her offspring and yours so the enmity between Satan is

Jesus Christ himself is at enmity with Satan and Mary is at enmity with Satan the mother of the

Messiah and Her seed the mother and her seed God has placed enmity with Satan that's why

Mary was obedient to the angel whereas Eve was not that's why in one sense

John Christosom could say life through death through Eve life through Mary That's why she was full of grace because she was prepared the

Ark of the Old Covenant Was now the new covenant in Mary the Ark of the New Covenant All right, and this is the final question here another one for Robert We are not simply declared by the intrinsically center

But are intrinsically centers that's not the parallel use of the

Gethsemane and Romans 519 support not imputed but Transformative justification.

I think that's to Matthew Is that says J Okay, my bad.

I can't really see the question good on my side. So I had a feeling I was gonna get a piece of Robert So Marlon do you mind to reread the question again?

All right It says we are not simply declared but are intrinsically centers does not the parallel use of Gethsemane in Romans 519 support not imputed but transformative justification so I would say you got to look at Romans 5 in the context of Romans 4 and 3 and you can even

Backtrack all the way to Romans 1 that talks about this universality of centers. Now.

I do think our Sin nature our nature is corrupt from birth, but when you get into Romans 5

Paul is you know using parallels here and I think in a true sense within the context because we don't want to abuse typologies and parallels and so forth when he says in verse 18

He says therefore the one trespass led to the condemnation of all men

So the act of righteousness Jesus perfects in this life leads to the justification in life for all men well there's an already established context that yes all all who are in Adam are

Condemned but all who are in Christ are declared righteous And so we know how to understand

The many the many who are in Adam are all men from birth with with the one exception of Jesus and then all who are in Jesus are all those who have been saved by grace through faith.

This one's for you Robert by faith alone All right,

Matthew any thoughts? Yeah, even if one has all faith, but does not love it's useless

So yeah It's the you know, I I Definitely think

I'm glad Jeremiah was able to discern it that all does not necessarily mean all all the time all

Have sinned does not necessarily mean all have sinned just Men shall be saved all of Israel shall be saved.

It says Doesn't mean all of Israel be saved It means certain individuals

Like it says just like When Jesus was born at the angel says on all of all of the world will have joy in this

But we know King Herod didn't have joy in that So all does not necessarily mean all and those exceptions are of course

Jesus Christ the King of Kings by his very nature and Mary the foretold woman in Genesis and Amity was

Satan she who was full of grace and once again declared righteous I still don't think that comes through baptism

But we still have to be stand before God with every careless word every time we judge one another and Second Corinthians 5 it says we shall each also receive punishment the bad that we've done in the body

So God makes us righteous through his cleansing and purifying blood and fire. We're not declared, but we're making righteous

Matthew you sound like a Calvinist all does it mean all all the time? Guys Excellent excellent stuff great debate man.

So that concludes the Q &A man Thank you guys so much for coming on this episode man coming on the channel man and adding another show to the to the page man,

I always appreciate you guys man, and What was that Matthew? Thank you

Marlon so very much for the opportunity. I appreciate your channel. I appreciate Jeremiah Thank you guys so very much and all the guys who ask questions.

Like I said, I'm in the little leagues I'm not a major leagues when it comes to apologetics, but I've learned a lot from you guys.

So, thank you so very much All right. Thank you. Once again anything any final words

Jeremiah? Yes, thank you so much Marlon and Matthew. I love you guys.

And so this is the gospel truth So we're talking about important matters, but unfortunately people get mad at each other and hurl debates

We were talking about other channels just have you know, relentless live feed and it's like man Let's talk about important truths, but let's do it.

Let's talk about the truth and love So I just thank y 'all guys for being here tonight and let me have a part in it as well

All right, guys. Good stuff, man. I'll talk to you guys soon, man. I thank you guys man and Hold it down to next time.

All right. God bless you guys See y 'all All right, folks

That's all we said another great debate in the books man, and this is one for the books definitely man

So it's uh, it's always good to have this conversation This is this topic is not one that you see a lot of debates about like I know

I haven't seen a lot of debates about this this type of this topic of what's Mary Silas?

And and this these are type of discussions that need to happen You know as Jeremiah was us was indicating important to is that we're able to get on a platform and You can view the other position as completely heretical

You can view the other position as completely unbiblical in every way shape or form, but that does not mean

That you cannot talk about it in a God glorifying manner In a way that's glorifying to God in a way that that shows the

Christ in you All right the Holy Spirit in you So just because you disagree with someone on some serious matters doesn't mean that you can't talk about it

And that's what the gossip truth is all about right and that's the platform that's trying to be presented

And I'm trying to present to you is a platform where we can have these discussions We can have these debates in a very organized fashion

Topics that usually get hostile and and get aggressive can be drawn back into a more

Cordial conversation, and that's what I believe the gospel truth is doing and I thank you guys always for supporting the ministry

And I want you to support the ministry not financially, but was just alike We're just a subscribe.

We're just hitting that notification bill. Can you support the ministry from that perspective? would you do that, please and Do that I'm praying that anyone out there that's in this live chat right now that don't know the

Lord Jesus Christ I'm praying that God will do a regenerate Regenerative work in your heart that you will come to faith

I'm praying that God will draw you out your sin that he will draw you to himself and that you will be one in the body of Christ That you will leave your sin in the past Get from under the enmity and hostility of God's wrath

And that God will draw you to a glorious and wonderful issue with him all right I thank you so much for joining me this episode, and I thank you for being a supporter