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John and Mike talk about preaching, lawyering and conferencing. https://www.thecommunitybiblechurch.com
Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, ìBut we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour ,î so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.
In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isnít for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as weíre called by the Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.
Hereís our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry.
Mike Abendroth here. It is a, I think in real time, a Thursday, but we have Wednesday guests, and I like to bring in the big guns on Wednesday. I bring in people who write more than I do, or have higher IQs than I do, know more theology than I do, and so today is no exception for Wednesday.
Pastor John Tucker, welcome back to No Compromise Radio. Thank you, Mike, itís great to be back. Youíre supposed to say, ìOh, would you do my funeral with an introduction like that ?î. Yeah, absolutely, will you?
I have known John for quite a while, and Iíve preached at his church, heís preached here, and I want you to know, John, when I pulled up on Google on my phone, I typed in ìJohn Tuckerî because I wanted to make sure I got your church name correct.
What do you think pulled up on my iPhone X Max when I typed in ìJohn Tuckerî? What pulled up?
Probably the movie ìJohn Tucker Must Die .î. You are right!
We have a winner, ding, ding, ding, ding.
I get that, I get that often.
Seriously, I had no idea.
Yeah, yeah, so a fun story about that is, when that movie came out, I was contacted by someone in New York City who had a son named John Tucker, and he wanted me to file a lawsuit to stop the naming of that movie, because he was concerned his son was going to get harassed at school.
And so he wanted to find a lawyer named John Tucker, thinking I would be sympathetic to his plight and cause, and wanted me to do that. I politely declined, but thought that was fun.
That is a good story. John, we have talked a few times on NoCo before, but Iím thinking about the whole lawyer thing, because you are a lawyer and you are a pastor. Is that like pastor-teacher, pastor-lawyer?
Is there a hyphen?
Yeah, your friendly neighborhood pastor-lawyer is mine.
Yeah, yeah, thereís apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-lawyers. Exactly. Do you think being a lawyer has helped you more or hurt you more when it comes to ministry? In other words, with helping, maybe you think analytically, and you can see Paulís epistle to the Romans, and then negatively, maybe if somebody doesnít like you or your style, maybe they think you should be nicer, they say, ìOh, youíre too much like a lawyer .î.
Yeah, I think itís helped more than itís hurt. Certainly, as an advocate in the legal context, those skills certainly translate over to preaching. Iím an advocate for Christ, and thatís a great honor and privilege.
I think itís the most important thing I do. Iíve had opportunities to argue in very important cases in a lot of different courts and appellate courts, and my greatest privilege has been to stand behind the pulpit and to proclaim Christ, and I think the development of skills to communicate with respect to how to present an argument in a clear way so people can understand it, see the logic of it, but not be overwhelmed by perhaps some of the complexities that are associated with doctrine and other things, I think has been helpful.
The linear way of thinking, A to B to C to D, like Paul does, is something that I like, and the way I think. In law school, we were taught to identify the issue, identify the rule, make the application, and draw a conclusion.
That was called IRAC, I-R-A-C. Itís kind of a method that Iíve even used in trying to put together my own messages and sermons and explain the text and read the text and help people make applications, and pointing them to Christ, of course, making certain that Heís central and understood to be the theme of Scripture.
So, I think itís worked well. Now, there are those who say, well, you know, you sound too much like a lawyer when youíre in the pulpit and, you know, you donít want to be so dogmatic or hard or come across so sternly, and I think they sometimes mistake my firmness or my conviction for upset or angry about something.
But, you know, Iím passionate in the courtroom and Iím going to be passionate in the pulpit and I want to persuade and present things clearly and precisely. So, if they donít like it, they can go down and listen to the wimpy guy down the road.
Thatís a wimpy Bible chapel. Yeah, exactly.
Well, our listeners canítÖ Pastor Milk Toast around the corner.
I think it was my wifeís grandfatheróheís from Jamaica in Englandó he had something called Milk Soppy, and they put this bread in the milk and it sopped it all up. So, thatís Milk Soppy preaching, I think, for us.
Yeah, we donít do that in Beloit, Ohio.
Well, Iíve been to Beloit a few times and am encouraged by the ministry there, and you, John, when I think of some of your practiceóyour law practiceó I know you work with churches sometimes, and you didnít tell me details, but you did express some concern that some churches that you work with donít even seem to have the Bible as their final authority, right?
You have some kind of law case, thereís litigation, somebody needs to be involved, a third-party arbiter or whatever the term is, and if you donít have the Bible as a final authority, then whoís the authority?
Exactly. And Iíve come across that quite often over the years of my practice. Iíve had the occasion to represent a number of churches, Christian schools, and Iíve really enjoyed that, and one of the things Iíve enjoyed the most about those opportunities is to be able to point people back to Scripture as the final authority in faith and practice, and to encourage them to be mindful of that commitment and obligation that they have.
In the recent past, because of the changes in a number of laws, both at the state and federal level, with things pertaining to transgenderism and homosexuality and infringement on free speech in that regard, with restrictions being imposed and some still in the pipeline with pending federal legislation, people have been concerned about whether or not they have the right kinds of bylaws and handbooks and policies in place.
And so Iíve spent a lot of time in the last three or four years just reviewing those documents for Christian organizations and churches, and itís through that process that a lot of these folks have kind of come to the realization that they really never sat down and seriously took into consideration what Godís Word says about genders and about sexuality and about relationships with people, and have them to frame policies and bylaws and governing documents around the Scripture.
And so thatís been a great opportunity and a unique challenge. Some people will say, ìI just never even thought about it .î. And sadly, theyíre in a church that hasnít really been proclaiming Christ and teaching the Bible, so these are oftentimes shocking revelations to them or nuances and points that they havenít taken into consideration.
So, yeah, itís important. We need to understand what the book says, and we apply it in the context of understanding that we have a mind for Christ, and that should be applied to these documents and these practices.
So thatís been enjoyable, challenging at times, but oftentimes itís worked out for the best.
Talking to John Tucker today, pastor at the Community Bible Church in Beloit, Ohio, maybe an hour south of Cleveland, if youíre in the area, you want to make sure you visit. John, I just want to express my concern, though.
How can you define ìfemale ,î though, if youíre just a theologian or a lawyer?
Well, you know, Mike, Iím not a biologist, so I donít know that I can answer that question. Yeah, thatís just preposterous. You know, Romans 1 .22, ìProfessing to be wise, they became fools .î And this is just that on high-definition display for us right now.
Rejection, as Paul would communicate, of what God ordained in His creative order, and just bizarre nonsense, the presence of sin, its wickedness, its evilness. Itís deliberate, itís intentional, people trying to undermine truth and the authority of Scripture and Godís creative order.
So I have no trouble defining what a woman is or what a man is. And whatís going to be interesting about that, Mike, is that legally thatís going to present a multitude of problems. And youíre going to see judges and juries then mimicking this type of nonsense.
As a consequence, justice will not be provided, and the laws will not be applied as they were intended. Youíre talking about centuries worth of legal precedent that appear to be tossed out on its ear with regard to the definition of these well-known and defined terms.
And I donít need to ask a vet, you know, if I see a dog, I donít have to consult with a vet. I can make that determination, and the same is for men and for women alike. Well, itís this big, godless age in which we live, and itís a great challenge and opportunity for those of us in Christ.
John, youíve been preaching through the book of Colossians. I donít know, are you in chapter 3 yet? And if so, hasÖ Yes, Colossians chapter 3, yep. Okay, and what effect have you seen on the Church as youíve been preaching through this wonderful little letter that extols Christ in every area?
And have you noticed anything, the nomenclature of the Church, how they talk about Jesus? What have you seen as youíve been in the book for quite some time?
Itís a great question, and itís been really truly remarkable to see what the Holy Spirit has done with our time in Colossians. Obviously itís a very Christ-focused epistle. Paul goes to great lengths to remind the Colossian believers of the foundation of their faith in Christ, their union with Christ, which is really central for Paul in the book of Colossians.
And so what Iíve seen in our own congregation is that people, as weíve delved deeply into the meaning of the passages, have a deeper understanding of Christ, and as a consequence, a greater love for Him, which ultimately is what then serves as their motivation to live for Him.
They, understanding Him better, they love Him more and have a greater desire to know Him better and to know Him more. And out of that gospel, gratitude grows, that holy desire to live for Christ and to proclaim Him to others.
And so I get frequent comments from people that theyíre enjoying the time in Colossians and that they are growing in their understanding of the work and person of Jesus Christ. And Paul does such a great job of laying it out, and he repeats himself often.
He lays that tremendous foundation in chapter 1. In chapter 2, he deals with the error of the false teacher thatís crept into the midst of the church there in Colossae, and he deals with the legalism, the failure to understand the distinction between the law and the gospel.
In chapter 3, he gets back into the foundations again in verses 1 through 4 and then starts to grow into that issue of sanctification and the source of that sanctification, what causes us to grow and how we then live that out in obedience and holiness.
So itís made a huge impact in the church. The church has grown spiritually, and I think in a deeper way in knowing better who Jesus Christ is and what He has done. So itís just been a blessing to me. I think a blessing to the folks.
Itís made a really big transformation in the church, more from a, Iím going to faith in my faithfulness to more of a, letís look to Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith, and rest in that.
Wonderful. And in light of that, I thought I would bless you with a reading from the message in Colossians 3. So if youíre serious about living this new resurrection life with Christ, act like it. Pursue the things over which Christ presides.
Donít shuffle along, eyes to the ground, absorbed with things right in front of you. Look up and be alert to what is going on around Christ. Thatís where the action is. See things from His perspective.
Well, are you saying I shouldnít be preaching from the message?
Well, John, Iím in Ephesians 5 this week, and itís the section with the wives and husbands, and itís interesting because thereís this great section in the literal text and in every proper Bible translation about nurturing and cherishing, how the Lord Jesus takes care of the church, and of course then it moves over to how weíre supposed to treat our wives.
It says in the message, ìNo one abuses his own body, does he? No, he feeds and pampers it .î. So see, if I was a wife, maybe Iíd think instead of nourish and cherish, Iíd like to be pampered more because Jesus pampered the church, so I want to be pampered.
I think people probably need some pampers who are reading that. Maybe that would be the best way to go about that.
Maybe. Yes, I would agree. Thatís true.
So, John, a few years ago you started a Bible conference at the church, at Community Bible, and I think I was a speaker then and was a speaker last year. We had a COVID year in between as well, and we want to talk a little bit today on No Compromise Radio about the next conference thatís coming up.
If you could give us dates and speakers and theme, and why do you think itís important so if people are in the area, they can swing over and be part of that conference?
Yeah, absolutely. So this is our third year for having the Pillars of the Faith conference, and Iím really excited to have you back, Mike. Youíve spoken at all of the prior two conferences, and weíre looking forward to having you back here for this one, along with your brother, Pat.
Pat even dropped, so heís going to be coming out, the sons of thunder. Heís going to be at the Pillars of the Faith conference in Beloit, Ohio. Thatís going to be on April 29th, beginning at 6 .30. Thatís a Friday evening, April 30th, which is a Saturday from 9 .30 in the morning to 12 .30, and then on Sunday, May 1st, beginning at 9 .15, and then for our main worship service at 10 .30, followed by a fellowship time.
And so I think Patís going to be starting the conference off on Friday night at 6 .30, April 29th, and weíll have a Q &A session after he speaks. Mike, or Pat, rather, is going to be addressing some of the common misunderstandings with respect to the Trinity.
The theme for the conference is ìOur Triune God ,î and so you and Pat are going to be speaking about the Trinity. And so Patís going to take the time to look at some of the Trinitarian heresies and errors in understanding the Trinity, looking at some of the current Trinity drift that weíre seeing in evangelicalism.
Oftentimes the Trinity is just dismissed as something thatís unattainable, we canít understand it, or itís completely mistaught. So Patís going to look at some of those issues, the eternal relations of origin issue, the eternal generation issue, of course, I think will be something that Pat looks to and talks about.
And then youíre going to be talking about, I believe, the use of the Trinity in preaching and things of that nature, and so addressing how we teach and express the Triune God in our preaching and our teaching in church and making certain that weíre understanding the work in person of the Trinity.
And so those are the topics, and weíre looking forward to having you guys out and to have that sweet time of fellowship. We always have a good time, and the turnoutís always been really good, and this is the first time weíve had Pat out, so to have the two of you together.
I donít know if Iíve made a mistake in doing that or not, weíll find out, but I think weíll have a great time.
Well, Pat certainly has more hair than I do. Heís thinner, heís in better shape, heís a better bicyclist. And Iím trying to think of what I might, you know, be better at than Pat. I canít think of anything.
And heís even started a podcast, probably gets more downloads than NOCO Radio, so I love it that my younger brother and then one day my son will exceed me in all these things, so Iím glad for that.
And youíve certainly paved the way, so theyíre just simply imitating, and imitation is the greatest form of flattery, so there you go.
John, in all seriousness, when you think about conference titles and topics, youíre not the typical pastor. You think, okay, what would be good for the congregation that Iím shepherding? If there are visitors from other churches, fine, itís a conference, but itís mainly for the folks, or itís intended for the folks that I shepherd.
And if you want to get a lot of people, well, maybe you do the rapture, maybe itís marriage boosters, and everybody shows up. But why would you pick something about the triune God, our triune God? I mean, itís going to be like eight people, right?
Theyíre going to show up, they want to hear about the triune God. What were you thinking with your lawyer-like mind?
Well, what I was thinking is that, you know, these are foundational truths of Scripture. These are the core tenets of what we believe as Christians. They are an important part of our confessions and creeds.
Itís important that we understand biblical categories and that we work within those categories. And so our congregation is concerned about those things because Iím concerned about them as their pastor.
And so as I preach and I teach, I communicate these important things, and I want to bring qualified, sound, godly men who are good students of the Word, who understand these things, who are confessional or Reformed, who understand these categories and can speak to them clearly and precisely based upon Scripture.
You know, thereís a huge problem right now in evangelicalism, and itís an abandonment of Godís Word, the authority of Godís Word, and the content of Godís Word. And so I think Matthew Barrett said something along the lines of, ìTo truly know God, we must understand God as Trinity .î And thatís important.
We want to truly know God. And as a believer, I want to know these things. It helps me appreciate the magnitude and wonder of my salvation. It helps me to understand how this triune God sanctifies me, what He did to save me, all of those things that are attendant with the hope that I rest in, knowing that He has accomplished and will accomplish what He set in motion.
You know, resting on the promises of Ephesians chapter 1, this wonderful picture of a triune God at work, bringing about my salvation. Thatís overwhelming and magnificent, and I know that you and Pat will do a fantastic job of teasing that out and presenting that to the people in a way that drives them to Christ and causes them to revel in the magnitude and the wonder of their salvation.
So thatís why I did it. And so the Conference is a pillar of the faith. These are things that we do not abandon. This is a sovereign morning. We are anchored in these truths, and I want them to be held onto.
We are drifting dramatically on so many issues, and people need to be reminded of these things. So thatís why we did it.
John, I love the answer, and I want to pat myself on the back for giving you such an underhanded pitch, but I wonít do that because it would take the focus off what weíre both trying to accomplish. I think maybe you should entitle the Conference something that maybe is a little controversial, but I think it might draw in more people.
Trinitarian pampering. Maybe how would that work? Exactly. Weíll do that. Iím going to write that down right now. Trinitarian pampering. Weíll change the website. Weíll take care of that. John, I was in California for the Shepherdsí Conference, and I think thatís when we first met years ago there at the book tent.
I know right where we were when we first talked to each other. And I was talking to another pastor, and he was basically trying to defend people that deny or who teach eternal subordination. I think heís friends with Owen Strand and other things like that, so maybe itís more of a personal thing than theological.
And he said something like, ìYou know what? We canít understand all these things about the Trinity, and itís past us, and weíre finite, and weíre tainted by sin. Itís just kind of like it doesnít really matter that much because we canít figure it out .î And I said, kind of in front of a group, I was nice about it, but I said, ìOf course thereís knowledge of God about Himself that we donít know, but thereís knowledge of God that we do know by revelation, and if God has so decided to reveal Himself in a particular, precise, exact way, then thatís how weíre to think about God, this particular, precise way.
So it does matter. We just canít say, ìWell, we donít care about eternal begotten, and it doesnít matter about that, because we canít grasp it anyway .î But this is the way God has revealed Himself, and we ought to think about Him that way.
So I love it that youíve picked our Triune God as a topic, and Iíve even been convicted myself in studying, John, when you read about Jesus, we ought to be thinking about the Father and the Spirit, right?
Thereís one God, not three gods, and every time I read about the Holy Spirit, it flags my mind now to think about the Father and the Son as well, and the same thing goes for the Father. He is a Triune God, and we want to think Triunely, if we can make up a word.
Yeah. I agree, and I reject the premise that these things are too deep for us to understand or just too complex for the common person, so to speak. You know, as a lawyer, when I try a case, I try that case not to the judge, but to typically a jury of 8 or 12 people.
And they are required to sit through days if not weeks of complex fact patterns, and then at the conclusion of that take a set of jury instructions that contain a very precise recitation of the law and take the facts and apply the law and draw a conclusion.
And you have people of varied education and backgrounds and experience, and Iíve always been impressed by the American jury system and by the ability of jurors to come back and render a decision in sometimes insanely complex cases.
Some of the laws that we have are incredibly complex, and so this excuse that somehow we canít understand these things is ridiculous and buys into this kind of relativistic, ìwe donít careî approach today.
But weíre called to have the mind of Christ, weíre called to look into Godís Word and to understand it and to ponder it and to meditate on it and to grasp these things so we can glorify Him. ÌSoli Deo Gloriaî, that comes out of a recognition of these wonderful truths, one of which is the fact that we have a triune God.
Thereís complexity to it, absolutely, but thereís also simplicity as well, and we need to understand that and to get our arms around it. So Iím of the mindset that we need to restore these great Orthodox truths that are the bedrock of Christianity, and Iím glad that you guys are helping me do that.
Amen. Well, that was a quick half hour. Thanks, John, for being on the show. People can go to Community Bible Church, Beloit, Ohio, for the conference, and read more about it. If youíd like to go to the website, itís www .thecommunitybiblechurch .com, right?
Thatís correct. This is not a community Bible church. This is, out of all the community Bible churches, this is the community Bible church.
Yeah, itís like the Ohio State University. This is the community Bible church. Thanks, John, for being on NOCO. Thank you, Mike, for having me. I appreciate it.
No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible-teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of Godís Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.
Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. Weíre right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbcchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.