The Jerry Vines Sermon Review Begins

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic here is James White and.

Banter About Sports, Travel, and Upcoming Conferences

Good morning. Good afternoon. Whatever time it is. Hey next week. It's gonna change, isn't it? Yep next week. It's. Well, it's like a change for us. We're just the same time for us. Different time for you all.

I guess I don't know and you know what don't care. But hey, you know you can figure it out. You're the ones who play with your clocks. I figure if you can figure out how to set it then you can figure out what time other things are.

Didn't they lose yesterday? No, they won yesterday the Redskins won yesterday. Could they be? You have no idea. Oh, okay doesn't matter. All that matters is last is last night truth and justice prevailed and the Giants defeated the Cowboys.

That was the only important important thing that happened. Yes. Indeed it's good to be back for at least few programs. We'll be here Tuesday and Thursday of this week we'll be here Tuesday of next week and Then the big conference the big debates the crews and everything kicks off and let me tell you it's been.

It is that we are in the middle of crunch time. Halfway through. I thought there was gonna be a little bit more to have been done by now but of course a week ago yesterday was a non show and let me mention for those of you who are coming to the conference or maybe have sort of been thinking about it, but maybe Indianapolis beat Washington so the skins lost.

Uh-huh, so oh well. Okay. Hey, I'm just I'm just mentioned that some guy crossed the window as the Redskins had on he put it on right as the program.

Started and I'm not a fairweather fan. Even good times and bad times. I'm I'm a fan.

But that if you said they won then you'd be in denial you that's your I'll fan. You'd be a fan.

That's in a fan boy. You what do you think. A fairweather fan or a Consistent fan is. You know it's it's like you know the Browns the the Browns the dog pound always went no matter how bad the Browns.

Were you know I don't think there is such a fan like that for the Cardinals though because after 18 years.

Why do you think I live in Phoenix, and I'm wearing a Washington Redskins? Let me tell you know the curse of the Cardinals is I grew up being a fan of this team and The Cardinals moved to town and I can't watch him anymore.

So that's how I have a hard time even keeping track of their scores. And what happens in their games because well you know got to watch the Cardinals.

And I think if they continue playing the way they're playing that's gonna stop. The local stations are gonna want to carry that anyways then again they have to. I think I don't know if they have to. Well because it's network national.

You know who knows who cares all I know is Is whenever you play the Cardinals you never have to give up hope? No matter how far. That's a fact that's right. They could be up 72 to nothing and they will find a way to lose a game.

I mean you know there's a lot of other sports. You could watch if you just wanted to watch a guy get chased around a grassy field all day long. You know and it doesn't matter how good of a quarterback you are if you play for the Cardinals.

You better run like Fran Tarkin in Falcons. You going you gonna get chased oh.

Man, I'll tell you that get that that Bears game was. But I thought that was really nice the Cardinals to let the let the Raiders win. I mean the Raiders are really been taking a lot of heat. They're supposed to be these nasty Guys, and they they hadn't won any so the Cardinals just felt bad for him and let him win some anyway.

You say it was grace it was great. Well. They've they've got nothing to lose so why not help somebody else out. I mean come on. You might as well. You know I don't think I don't think they should have on the field with a high school team on Sunday.

So they would have gotten whacked, but anyhow that's neither here nor there. I was trying to mention that next week at the conference if you're planning going to the conference I Was talking about this and then he throws this Redskins hat on.

I don't know why he's doing a Redskins hat on. And he had this grin on his face like it meant something. I'm gonna put this hat on cuz they lost again anyway. At the conference what we're gonna. Do is on Thursday night When we we had had an open invitation to Ergon Kanner who to my knowledge never even bothered to respond to that invitation, but on Thursday evening we Will be Tom Askew and myself will we will do the Presentations that we would have done now.

I'm not gonna say it's identical. We're not going to limit ourselves to an exact amount of the same exact amount of time and things like that but there were certain issues that both of us would love to have had the opportunity of enunciating to the Students and I've had at least one guy I could think of who has said it wouldn't matter.

It wouldn't matter how you were treated wouldn't matter how unfair it was wouldn't matter. How if you were mocked or anything you still should have gone? So I guess he he thinks that you should like go to Peter Ruckman's April Fool's Day presentations and stuff like that and Just put your position out there to be mocked and ridiculed and when you start to make a point they can turn off your mic.

And ha ha ha and throw stuff at you at you know. I don't know but anyway You know you know what happened with the debate. We're not go back over that. That's a that's a done deal and the documentation is out there, and and you can think what you want about it.

But we're gonna do the presentations that we would have done and to talk about the things We would have talked about answer the objections that Ergin Kanner and Ymir Kanner fact I'm going to try to track down the Ymir Kanner sermon From the Thomas Road Baptist Church, maybe I can have some clips on that on my tablet we can hook it into the sound system and and you know use it that way and play the play the clips and respond to the things that are said the charges of hyper Calvinism and and Things like that on a Thursday evening, and then of course what I'd like to do is then make the mp3s of that available.

And get the word out to all of our friends at Liberty University those folks that are sort of like the the underground resistance during the war in Europe and We'll put out the secret coded message On the side channel to let them know that this mp3 download is available.

Make it available to students at Liberty University so that they can at least hear what would have been said and also along with that the fact that their champion there has has declined numerous challenges debate one-on-one and neutral ground and I noticed that a number of folks Have been commenting on the link that I provide on the blog where you can see some scholastic debates and collegiate debate and You're watching these people that look like they're hyperventilating talking 350 to 400 words per minute, and that's the kind of thing that That's Brett O'Donnell's teams at Liberty are very adept at doing.

That is not what you do in theological debate. That's not how you communicate The truth of God that's not how you discuss the Word of God and exegete the Word of God and handle the Word of God. You instead make clear clear presentations where you're attempting to connect with your audience and Bring them along so that they can see why you object to the other side and they can see that you are the consistent side.

That's what both Bill Shishko and I attempt to do on Thursday evening. They're on Long Island up in Port Jeff, and I think that's exactly what took place. We are attempting to get hold of the Recordings even as we speak we would very much like to have at least the audio recordings available and then the the plan then is to take two different video sources that were made that night and We have the ability anyway to put them together to edit them together into one product and then sync up the audio from the church itself with that and That should provide a real very useful DVD of the debate as well.

It went very very well. And people have asked me how come you haven't talked about the debate on the blog. Well, I I let you know that it went. Well, I don't feel any particular compulsion to go back over any of the particular issues because until a person has listened to the debate and can Can do actually what Bill Shishko always suggest people do when he moderates the great debates every year he has Exhorted the the people listening to flow chart the debate to Put down the major points and the statements and the answers and flow chart them and that's especially useful for not only following the the arguments, but also and this to me is is If you want my one comment of the debate this is this to me is the debate this to me is the issue That was I think clearly presented in the debate and that is in my opening statement I said it is your job as the audience to examine each side for consistency for for exegetical consistency and argumentational Consistency to see whose position is consistent with itself and most importantly whose position is consistent exegetically with the very same kind of hermeneutical Type of argumentation that we utilize to discuss the resurrection justification the Trinity the deity of Christ Whatever else that may be those areas were the two sides agree What is the exegetical hermeneutical method that we utilize to come to those conclusions and then does one side use a different hermeneutical method on the subject of baptism and to me that was that was the debate that was the issue of the debate and What makes a good debate is that everyone will be able I believe to examine Both sides on that issue because there was nothing personal in the debate.

There was no There was nothing to get in the way of You being able to do what you need to do for this debate to give you the answer To that particular question that that's what makes it an excellent debate as you know There are some debates where the opponent just behaves so Reprehensibly and and so out of in such an out-of-control fashion that you really can't do that.

You only hear one side the other side really hasn't engaged the issue that obviously was not the case here and Therefore you are able to to make that those kinds of decisions. So we will get that available as quickly as we we possibly can because we know a lot of folks are going to be very desirous of listening to that particular debate and Once again, I I would like to see that debate make the rounds also At certain universities as a demonstration of how brothers in Christ can disagree on important and vital issues and and believe that their disagreement is in fact itself important to How the church functions and and things like that and yet do so Without any of the the rancor and nastiness that marks certain other Encounters and so I think that those who are Baptists who have never heard a case for infant baptism and there are many Most reformed Baptists have because most reformed Baptists have had to deal with this issue.

Anyway, most reformed Baptists who know their Calvinistic heritage have had to read Calvin and stuff like that. So it's not like we're ignorant of it. But on both sides you have Presbyterians who who think that all Baptists are sort of like, you know the fundamentalist Baptist down the street that just baptizes because You know because John the Baptist did it that way and he was the first Baptist and they've never never heard a reformed Baptist address the issue of Baptism from that perspective and the same on the other side.

There are Baptists that have no idea how a Reformed view of pedo-baptism differs from a Lutheran view of pedo-baptism which differs from a Roman Catholic view of pedo-baptism. Hey, if you if you if you baptize your children.

You're all just thrown into one big camp and and so both sides. I think we'll go. Hmm. Wow hadn't Hadn't Ever thought of it that way before and there were I think there were a lot of people debate who were also going.

Hmm. I I've learned something this evening. I had never Really consider those issues before and so that's going to be that's going to be great. And once again, I think we've had the opportunity, you know, I think about last year We've got some we've got some debates.

It just I can't think of anybody else who has the the same kinds of debates available that we do. I mean the the John Dominic Crossan thing, we've we've got to get the Marcus Borg thing the cross and Borg thing out and it's been over over a year now and We've just got to get that stuff put out there.

Those kinds of things are just really unique. Especially from the perspective that we come at it from and and So we'll be getting that stuff out there and you'll I think you'll be very blessed by that so conference coming up and then of course the debate with with John Shelby spong to sort of wrap up the pulpit crimes conference, which is is very appropriate on on many levels and Then of course continuing with those themes on the the cruise as well and so I'll take a slight deep breath after Long Island.

But very very short deep breath and then head directly into The next stretch there and then I'm only home about two weeks before we're going to be in st. Louis actually st. Charles again this time on solo scriptura at Covenant Grace Church with families and the folks there for our Almost annual I think it pretty much is an annual Trip now to st. Louis first weekend in December and the conference there.

So that's we've got coming up right now gonna be teaching for a Golden Gate in January on apologetics. And also headed out to New Jersey at some point during January. I think it's the third weekend for an apologetics conference weekend down there and Then the whole new year starts and it goes by just as fast as 2006 did in fact probably a little bit faster this Thursday my plan given that we have upcoming the Reformation Sunday celebrations in certain churches I May well be taking the opportunity to on Thursday Talk a little bit about the background of the Reformation the various I've always found it fascinating the the movements of God pre-existing the Reformation that feed into the Reformation how you have the pre-reformation reformers like Wycliffe and Huss and you have really the necessity of the invention of the printing press so that the The Reformation can really take place and you have Erasmus a fascinating fellow Who I think is Vilified by many and also made a saint by many and and he was you know sort of somewhere in between there a lot of folks don't know much about Erasmus and where he was coming from, but anyway might take some time on Thursday to Go over some of those fascinating historical aspects that go into the Reformation which a few folks not many Sadly, I think the vast majority of evangelicals today if you ask them anything about Martin Luther would say he was a reformer in the 1960s actually and they wouldn't really have a whole lot of an idea of What the Reformation was actually all about and even less passion for the beliefs that were a part thereof.

Why the Sermon Review Matters

So with all of that said what I'd like to do today Is I would like to Didn't know she had said that I would like oh by the way see our little cough button here rich That's the exact same cough button.

They have at the radio station on Long Island, and that's the only thing they have the same there Because everything else we have was created at least four decades after Everything else they have there.

I have I I've been in some old. I was in some old radio stations when my dad was chief engineer of WHP in Harrisburg and I've been around some old old equipment, and it is all they're still using carts and stuff.

Oh that place is oh my goodness Technology the works a whole nine yards, man. It is Absolutely ancient just incredible. I I didn't even have a button to mute mute me, but.

There is one of these. The big question is you remember the when years ago when we started out on XCG. Yeah, the train tracks. You remember the train tracks outside the window and the train would go by.

There are no train tracks outside there though. I was told the story, but I forget who it was. That's. They they finished program up and they're walking out the guys He said. And the guys the guys saw a guy mowing the lines.

It's that guy looks like the DJ and which Chris goes that is the D.

So. Yeah, it was. Well, we'll let you have a microphone if you'll mow the line.

There you go. That's that's how it works. So anyway it was We are blessed with that Those things in there with LEDs and stuff like that, and yeah, we're quite blessed to have all that stuff in there. It's no no toys about it.

So anyway what I'd like to do today is Get back to what I promised I would get to and that is looking at the dr. Vines sermon. I've already noticed of course that in the blogosphere if you have in any way shape or form responded to The sermon at First Baptist Church Woodstock week ago Sunday night.

That was specifically designed to immunize the church against reform theology. If you if you have even bothered to say that it Misrepresents the subject that it's attempting to address. You're automatically attacking. Dr. Vines.

Now obviously if you were to use the same kind of reasoning in reverse Then you would say that dr. Vines was personally attacking every Calvinist by misrepresenting their position and I would think there would actually be more reason to say that than the reverse, but be that as it may.

It is once again yet again another example of the fact that Very few people today think in a critical fashion. What I mean by that is I was told yesterday by a fellow in in our chat channel that he had He had given one of my books the Potter's freedom to one of his elders and one of his elders had commented that He felt I was attacking Norman Geisler.

Now he's not the first person to have said that but as I mentioned it to him I've had many people say that I have not had a single person substantiate that. It's real easy to to make the assertion, but then when you say okay, and could you give me an example of this?

Could you show me this in the text? Could you give me a page number? Could you give me a? Paragraph could you quote it in context all of a sudden the wheels fall off and you discover very quickly that for many people Simply disagreeing with someone because of their stature is to attack them, and I think that's probably true with a lot of people themselves.

I think I think maybe dr. Geisler Believes that I simply attacked him by disagreeing with him and in fact documenting errors on his part. I guess for some people You don't do that. You'd simply don't document errors on the part of a Christian leader.

Dr. Vines has been the president of Southern Baptist Convention and So evidently what that means is once you have obtained that position that afterwards you you sort of have a special get out of the Requirement to accurately represent the topics you're addressing card and Anything you say from that point on now anybody else can still disagree with you, but they can't say that you're actually misrepresenting anything and As I mentioned the last time we were together on We could go this coming Thursday.

Actually we could well whatever it was over a week ago. Two weeks ago, I was coming there's a when we were last together. The fact is there seems to be a singular template. One template that is sort of floating around even dr. Vines at the beginning of the sermon says I'm working from a manuscript tonight.

And I've never done that in 50 years of preaching well Why would he have to do that well? Because there are certain points that he wants to cover and they're not overly familiar to him and when we start listening to them.

They're the same old same old and they are the same old that are surface level. They're the same old arguments that have been refuted over and over again and that any person who wants to honestly address the issue would know this and Hence could not repeat these points without while repeating them.

Addressing the responses that have been offered. But that's not what happens. Because if you start doing that then the people listening to you're going to realize that there's actually two sides this issue and evidently, that's the one thing that everybody wants to avoid doing and So it is disappointing when people who are in positions of religious authority when they simply Go with the flow Go with pre packaged presentations that are Grossly inaccurate that does not show respect for the people who hold those positions.

You're not showing respect for the pulpit. You're standing behind. You're not showing respect for your audience. You you must think that there's no one in your audience Who has ever examined this issue so as to recognize that you yourself either haven't or you're treating it in a cavalier fashion.

I don't understand that mindset. I will never understand that mindset and If there are others who just go well, hey, you know He has the right to have that mindset because he's been the president of the Baptist Convention.

Well, please explain that to me. Explain how that works. I'd like to know from a biblical Christian worldview. Exactly how it is that having held a particular denominational post Releases you from all issues of integrity and accurately handling facts.

I I don't understand that I'd like to hear an explanation of that from those who seem to think that that in fact is. Is how things should be should be handled? So it was a fairly lengthy sermon out and how long's to take it through it don't even honestly know.

You know if something else were to all of a sudden come up. We we may not but it again is worthwhile to listen to these things provide a response. We have a lot of people listening now because of what happened with the non debate who were not listening before and So Yeah, we may be repeating some stuff that we we have talked about when we've responded Dave Hunt when we respond to Norman Geisler and we responded to Adrian Rogers and we've responded to well just fill in the blanks, there's a whole lot of folks that seemingly pass around the same sermon and Just deliver it with various levels of skill and sometimes various levels of vitriol.

There's I don't really think there's any vitriol in the dr. Vines presentation. That was refreshing difference but the fact the matter is it is still the same kind of Presentation. So let's let's take a listen and begin listening to this particular debate now.

The Sermon’s Opening Manuscript and Series Theme

You're going to have to really pray for me tonight because I'm going to do something I have not done in over 50 years of my ministry. I'm going to be working tonight off a manuscript. Which means I'm going to be reading a great portion of what I've got to say, and I think you will understand why because of the subject I am dealing with and the controversies which Swirl around this particular thing, but it's unnatural to me to do this.

I Like to have eye contact and so I've been preaching extemporaneously through the years. You know preachers are different some preach from manuscript some preach by letter. Some preach by notes. I Preach by letter.

I just read back in letter fly. That's kind of way. I normally preach, but this is a little bit different tonight but I'm going to do my very Very best to handle this in a way that will be helpful and that will Assist you in your understanding.

This is the second message in a series of messages. I'm building around the theme Baptist battles our last message was liberalism a Baptist and his Bible the message tonight Calvinism a Baptist and his election on the Sunday night the 22nd of the month.

I will bring a message entitled Pentecostalism a Baptist and his gifts and then on the first Sunday morning of November I will speak on the subject of libertinism a Baptist and his booze and so I hope you'll come and we'll hear the rest of these messages.

I brought some Graphics by our for our men today, and I have a lot of scriptures I'm going to use and they'll be putting these graphics up. Hopefully as I move along through This particular study this evening.

Personal Background, Pastoral Experience, and the Email from a Young Church Member

I Was pastor of the First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida as you know for almost 24 years. During those 24 years preaching Sunday morning and Sunday night and Wednesday night I was able to do a series of messages on every book of the Bible all 66 of the books of the Bible.

I Gave the church down there a nine-month period of time to When I announced my retirement before I concluded to hopefully give the pulpit committee time to find God's man for the church and in those months that is exactly what happened dr. Mack Brunson is now the pastor of the church there During those nine months as they were coming to a close.

My father died in the month of August and over the weekend We had come to do the funeral of my father and to attend to these particular Matters just a day or two after I had returned from the death of my father I received an email from one of the young men in our congregation He was one year old when I came there.

Now let me let me pause this for just a moment and once again. What we're gonna hear here. I'm not questioning the existence of this email. I'm not questioning. Dr. Vine's response to it. But it does seem to be a regular aspect of this discussion that the person who denies and decries reform theology.

Always points to some kind of a personal hurt or personal experience. That helps to substantiate. Well the resultant prejudice. Now I have been vilified by Calvinists. I have been attacked by Calvinists.

There are mean Calvinists in the world just as there are mean Armenians and inconsistent evangelicals. And there are there are mean synergists and mean monergists and I might be able to argue that being a mean monergist is significantly less consistent than being a mean synergist.

The the point is that if you make your decisions about these types of things based upon that kind of argumentation that kind of Experientialism then you're clearly not engaging in. Meaningful exegetical study of the text you're allowing your personal experiences to to impact.

Your your your viewpoint it seems to me especially since he finishes his sermon on this point. And that's a good by the way. It's a good sermon technique. To tell an engaging story at the beginning wrap it up at the end.

It gives the audience a feeling of of completeness in the presentation it connects things. That's very very good as far as pulpiteering is concerned. But it's not necessarily overly good given the nature of this this particular presentation.

So you've come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Married him and his wife very active young man in our church. It was probably the ugliest most unkind email I received in over 50 years of ministry. And in this email He basically chided me for my failure to preach the whole gospel to the congregation.

And he said to me why have you not and I'm paraphrasing why have you not preached to the people the doctrines of grace? Why have you not preached limited atonement? Why have you not brought in. And he named a number of outstanding speakers around the country so our people can hear them and so I.

Don't think I ever received in all of my ministry a more hurtful email than that one was.

Cage-Stage Calvinism and the Need for Maturity

Now let me just stop again now obviously I'm not going to judge an email. I've never seen or the person who sent it. However there is no question that I have more than once addressed what we in In our circles refer to as cage stage Calvinism.

Cage stage Calvinism. Is that Calvinism that? Is frequently exhibited by those lacking maturity in the Reformed faith? They are the the ones who have the belief that they must Get upon their their white horse.

And they must draw their sword and they must gallop at high speed toward the nearest church. To attack anyone who would not with them say John Calvin three times with a with a loving tone. And Cage stage Calvinists do more damage than they do good.

I Understand the zeal that comes with that first recognition of the sovereignty of God and his holiness and my unworthiness. But it is frequently not joined with the resultant Sanctification that needs to come with those things that gives one enough maturity To recognize that it was grace that opened your eyes these things, so it's not going to be your Bullishness it's going to open up somebody else's eyes to these things.

That's what we call cage stage Calvinism. And Maybe this was a young man Who has just been exposed to the doctrines of grace has recognized their their biblical nature the consistency of it? And Maybe has recognized the inconsistency of so much of the preaching since since the position held by Dr.. Vines and so many other in his position is an inconsistent one it is self-contradictory.

And a person who comes to believe that you need to be consistent in your theology To honor God and honor his word to find self-contradiction to be something less than than honorable. All those things may be true, but there is a means by which you approach those things.

There's a means by which you you speak the truth and all of us have Experienced the cage stage at some point sometimes. We we need to climb back into it for a little while to calm down. But maybe that's what this email is about.

I don't know then again. I have to ask the question could anyone approach some of these high leaders in the Southern Baptist Convention and Seriously attempt to dialogue about these things. I haven't seen a whole lot of desire on the part of any of these individuals to dialogue about these things.

I haven't seen anyone giving a whole lot of indication That they are truly desirous of engaging in meaningful conversation on the subject of the doctrines of grace and so How how would I have seen people respond for example the fellow in channel who mentioned the the fact that even my own book where I bent over backwards to remain focused upon the subject and Not upon the person I was reviewing there have been people who very unfairly and untruthfully Have accused me of being mean-spirited and nasty and attacking Norman Geisler was just not true.

I know my own heart the Lord knows my own heart and Lord knows What was there and when I challenged people in the subject they can't back up what they're stating and so? Is it possible that maybe it's just the idea that here is a young man, and this was functional in the geyser situation.

There are some folks who because you know he says he's been preaching for 50 years and How could someone who has not preached at all? Tell me who's been preaching for 50 years that I need to do X Y or Z See so there's the other element there that needs to be needs to be factored in in trying to you know evaluate fairly these kinds of Accusations that are all too frequently a part of the discussion, and I set up an appointment for him to come in.

Almost weekly now and even tonight. Our pastor Has told me about a family that came to our church today to visit. Coming from a church, which has had difficulty with the problem of Calvinism One of the former churches I served a man came there to be.

The pastor began to preach the five basic points of Calvinism bottom line. And the church split right down the middle. He remained in the city, and he established another church. It is a problem, which we cannot ignore.

Calvinism, Church Splits, and the Charge of Poisoning the Well

Now once again Church splits well it it seems to be part of this template to allege that Calvinism is the problem here that Calvinism tries to come in and and it's the new movement. It's the new thing and of course the historical fact is that that's not the case.

The historical fact amongst the Southern Baptists is that is not the case and yet it is. It is the kind of Accusation that you use along with others To attempt to paint a movement and all of this seems to be not so much.

I can't believe that these men actually feel that these sermons would in any way shape or form be Convincing to someone who's actually begun to study the issue in fact it would seem to me They'd have to realize that they are abandoning the field of battle.

Because they know they can't win that battle. It seems to me that these are damage control sermons that are meant to limit who is actually going to be listening to these folks and to Create a mindset to where if someone says anything They would seem to indicate they're going this direction.

But there's to be more and more people in the congregation that are going to be quicker To report these folks to the leaders so you can weed them out faster. You can get them out of leadership, and if they're no longer in a position of leadership they're probably going to go someplace else anyway, and It so it really does seem to fall into the category of well We can't win this battle in in the debate format.

We can't win this battle in in in exegesis. We can't win that win this battle in writing at least If we allow the other side to be heard and so let's try to inoculate our congregations against this Movement by poisoning the well, let's try to poison people's minds against Calvinism.

Let's try to do it in a nice way in the sense. We'll say that we have lots of good Calvinist friends, and and we're not going to just kick them out of the kingdom. But we want to we want to sort of subtly Inculcate the idea that Calvinism splits churches and Calvinism is just a side issue and Calvinism is just this and that and the other thing.

And hopefully what that'll do is it'll automatically cause these walls to come up as soon as someone hears What sounds like Calvinism, but that's the end of the conversation. That's the end of dialogue.

That's the end of discussion. I I know my pastor doesn't believe in that I love my pastor therefore. That's it. It can't possibly be true. He knows more of this he knows more about the stuff than I do and he knows more about the stuff than you do and Therefore since he rejects it.

I'm gonna reject it. I'm just gonna trust him. Now especially for Baptists. That's a really bad attitude we we Look at the Roman Catholics and go. That guy just believes whatever his priest tells him well take priest out and put pastor in and what's the difference?

You know I mean seriously and So it that shouldn't be the way things are but that seems to be What we're hearing here because before even defining the position we have now had Calvinism has turned this longtime church member that I I saw him born and I I saw him saved and I married him and all the rest that stuff and and now he's this nasty Calvinist and it splits churches, and it's a problem and What other movements are you associating this with well you notice?