March 11, 2016 Show with Joe Thorn on “The Importance of Creeds and Confessions: Guardrails Against Heresy!”

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Good.

Afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth listening via live streaming. This is Chris arms and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday on this gorgeous March 11th in 2016 at least it's gorgeous here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

I don't know about where you live, but the Lord has certainly blessed us with breathtaking weather today and I'm very happy that we were able to get back on the air. After a Bit of confusion between my guest today, and I who is supposed to be on the second half of Wednesday's program we both Did not communicate very well when it came to the time.

He was supposed to be on since he is in a different time zone. And but I'm so glad that we have Joe Thorne back on the program. By now, he is no stranger to the iron sharpens iron audience. He is pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in st. Charles, Illinois.

And today we're going to be talking about a very controversial issue. It is the importance of confessions and creeds. Guardrails against heresy. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron pastor Joe Thorne.

Thanks, Chris. Yeah, I agree with you and why don't you let our listeners know?

I know I always have you do this, but there are people who may be tuning in for the first time. Tell us something about Redeemer Fellowship in st. Charles, Illinois.

Well, Redeemer is eight and a half twenty nine network and we have had the honor and privilege of sending out three other church. In fact our third church. Oh, wow.

Well, congratulations on that and in studio again with me is Reverend Buzz Taylor who has become a regular part of this program lately and I'm glad that the Lord was able to Get you here. Well, he's always able to do whatever he wants, but I'm glad he enabled you to be here.

It's a better way of phrasing it just within Seconds of us going on the air and welcome back to the program.

Co-hosts the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Well, thank you. I didn't even have time to stop for coffee.

Well, that'll be less bathroom breaks during a live radio.

And.

If you'd like to join us on the air if you have questions of your own for Joe Thorne. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the good old.

USA. Can I ask a question first of all about the introduction?

Go ahead.

I'm not you. You said Joe that you're in the Southern Baptist Convention and part of the x29 group or something to that effect.

I'm not familiar with that. Well, see axe 29 is a book. Is a chapter in a book that Luke wrote. I'm told you turn at the organization.

There is no x29.

Go ahead.

The idea behind the name is that this is the continuation of the work in God of the work of God through the local church. X 29 is a global family of churches across you know in multiple countries and We're now headquartered I believe out of London but we have about 500 churches in our network and We work together to plant churches.

So we like to say it's a global family of churches that plant churches. We we are it's generally Reformed soteriologically or it is Soteriology that all churches must adhere to its complementarian. It's very gospel centered and Church planting is the point and so we all look a little different but on a level of principle We have a lot in common.

So you have very Confessional reform churches in that group. You also have some of the more modern Contemporary style churches that are also theologically robust, but perhaps not as confessional in nature.

Well, I think a good place to start would be and it may seem like baby steps, but there are New Christians listening there are non-christians listening on occasion. And there are non creedal or non confessional churches.

Who are members of those churches I should say that are listening at times. Why don't you give us a definition of a confession and some people use The term confessions and creeds interchangeably, but I also heard people Distinguish between the two, but if you could start with a definition That is if it's a good one Obviously, you have a very bad confession that has the teachings of men in it that have no Relation to the scriptures at all, but a bit of biblically sound one would certainly meet your definition.

And I have heard some people and I don't know if this has any historical weight to it. But I've heard a couple of people Differentiate between a confession and a creed they will say That a creed is typically a shorter list of cardinal beliefs.

That was intended to be a unifying document amongst a broader group of Christians where a confession is typically a lengthier and more detailed document that would Differentiate that specific group of Christians amongst Other Christians, it would be more fine-tuned.

It would be It would be more obvious that it was an attempt to set the group apart from Christians in general. I don't know if you would hold to that difference, or.

Well, I think that's general creed. They emerged early on in the first few hundred years of the early church. And yeah, they tend to be more lists a little more lengthy. But and confessions are more specific more detailed.

They are longer. The the only place I would disagree Is in two areas one is and when some people these are usually non confessional people will say. Or people that are struggling with it. Anyway, they'll say that creeds are inherently binding and they trump scripture whereas confessions Don't do that.

Sometimes we'll say both do that. Obviously, we're gonna disagree with those. But I would also say and we'll talk about this when we talk about the purpose and the value of creed and confession. They do distinguish one group from another but they also show unity between.

Differing groups in a lot of different areas. So I think it goes kind of both ways there.

Yeah.

Of course I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here for a little bit here because I have had many conversations with people who do not go to confessional churches and of course They I'm trying to look at us from an outsider.

They would look at that and say well, why can't I just be a Christian? Why do I have to be a Calvinist. Why do I have to hold. Isn't that isn't that being divisive?

No, I don't think all Christians conscious Affirmations and denials and therefore we all Create some divisions or affirm some. You can't read the Old or the New Testament without seeing this emphasis on withdrawing from heresy and to reject false prophets and so.

We do that as Christians and when we articulate our faith verbally or in written form We are drawing certain lines in the sand and so a confession is Merely another opportunity for us to clarify what we do in fact believe.

So it is generally very positive and In doing that sure it distinguishes us from others and perhaps distinction or a division but usually it's in areas that are critical to the gospel or important to the health of a local church and.

The we might as well define catechism. Which would be a teaching tool specifically?

Correcting tool that's made by God and enjoy him forever. So not only would children be taught to be encouraged to memorize the founding of that bike.

And we happen to have on this show today two different confessions of faith represented. We have the 1689 London Baptist Confession represented by myself and my guest Joe Thorne and My co-host buzz Taylor happens to adhere To the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is the confession of the congregation where he is a member a PCA congregation and the the major reformed confessions.

Would be the 1689 the Westminster Confession and you have the three forms of unity that are adhered to by the Dutch Reformed denominations the Heidelberg Catechism The canons of Dort and the Belgic Confession and you have the Savoy Declaration that the Congregationalists adhere to and the 39 articles of the Anglican faith when it comes down to the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

Joe what is the difference between that and the Westminster. Because I know that the those who framed the 1689 London Baptist Confession were Openly Copying most of what was in the Westminster, but they were distinguishing themselves as Baptists.

But if you could get more detail than the difference if you can right. Well.

It was good. It was good, but when the Westminster came out in 1647. Beautiful and then the content Savoy Declaration and the Baptist said you know what we cannot. We're not gonna write something New and better than this, so let's use the Westminster and the Savoy.

Because we affirm you know 90 of it and where we differ in a few particular areas we're going to make it just and. So they did that in 16 and dissenting churches wish it widely. So in 1689 the Act of Tolerance was patented to gather freely.

And so they published it in 1689 so that's why it's called the 1689 Second London Confession. What it did was it affirmed what they believe, but it also showed that they are not crazy. And a Baptist that they aren't Heretics that they aren't weird that they are in fact very much Armlocked with their brothers both Presbyterians and Congregationalists and where they differ.

Matters and is important, but it's. And what would be?

The difference between the 1689 London Baptist Confession or the Second London Confession as it's called also and the Philadelphia Confession of Faith because I understand they're nearly identical, but there is some difference.

Yeah, the Philadelphia are Baptist. Early Baptist debate melody and instruments in music and so. Again, I'm pulling from memory here but I do believe that in the 1700s when the Philadelphia was put together.

They added on to it, and I don't know if you know anything about the lesser-known confession the New Hampshire Confession. I had some Calvinist Baptist friends that had congregations that they pastored that adhered to that.

Right right now.

As you may have I have in my 30 year Christian as a 30 30 years as a Christian. And all of those years being in a Reformed Baptist Church by God's good providence. I've run across fundamentalist friends of mine fundamentalist Baptist.

Who think that if you have a confession of faith you are really adding? To the Bible. Or you are at least saying that the Bible isn't clear enough. What we call the perspicuity of Scripture they would say that that is being denied by having a confession and That they like to just stick to the good old Bible, and they don't need any confession.

But you're not at all or should I say the confessions are not all Intended to usurp or even come on an equal par with the Bible are they?

Not at all. Not at all a confession the teaching of Scripture, but it's also you could say it is the teaching of church leaders and Just like we have God ordained pastors and teachers in the church to help us better Understand and explain the scripture and a tool that the church uses and to be very clear for example in the 1689 and the Westminster when you're looking at their Theology the very first thing that they talk about is the supremacy of the Bible.

And I'll just read a part of it for you, but in chapter 1 of the 1689 It says the Horton and infallible rule of all saving knowledge. Everything that is said taught or written Must come under the screw word of God their creed particular firm sola scriptura as a guiding principle and.

Isn't it true that to make a statement like that? My church doesn't have confessions of faith. We only use the Bible. As I've just mentioned that some of my fundamentalist friends will say isn't that in and of itself a confessional statement.

Right. Yeah, it's always you've just made an absolute claim. There is no creed, but the Bible that is more of a creed than a confession. It's ironic that that in denying creed they actually create their own and in fact.

Wouldn't you say that everybody has a confession. It's either just a good confession or a bad confession and it's either. Recognized as such or not, but it's still a confession. Like even that even if you were in a church that was so whack.

Oh for lack of a better term. So liberal so broad so diverse. That it would have a statement that said that said We allow everybody in this church to believe whatever they want. That in and of itself is still a confessional statement.

Right, right every other body of belief not only may be very broad or every gathering of written down or implicitly understood and.

Going to the two polar opposite reasons why many people Reject confessions one that you touched on before a more modern evangelical church a church that Believes it is freer and it has more Liberty To allow the people to come up with their own conclusions.

They may say that the having a confession is Really robbing one of a Berean spirit to be searching the scriptures to prove everything by them and they may out of fear just Claim to be in lockstep with the confession because if that's what the church Adheres to they don't want to be disciplined.

They don't want to be kicked out or you have on the other extreme as we mentioned already that there are those who believe that it's in addition to the scriptures and people raise it to the same par as the Bible.

Now obviously both of those extreme Complaints can be true if confessions are misused, right? I Mean there are churches that were individual Christians that you would think that they.

Are.

Holding up the Westminster as a superior document more reliable. Then within the Bible itself sometimes by the way, they they state things but that that is obviously something To be of what it all cost and would be cultic.

Yes, and I know and in the reformed tradition and a lot of us are tempted towards this right that we get. We're sometimes more excited. We are sometimes more in love with our Confessional standards than we are with the inerrant Word of God.

That's just a tempting that that happens. It is easy for us to so find our identity.

In.

The confession. Because it is so clear and unifying and all of that that the scripture does at least functionally become You know less of an important issue. So we need to speak against that. We need to be very clear that the scripture is Authoritative and inerrant and we should be more excited.

I mean, listen, I've got 1689 tattooed across the back of my hand. It's very big so I mean people could draw that conclusion by looking at me and go wow.

I really love. What I want to know is why Reverend buzz sitting next to me has three sixes on his bald spot.

All of the churches in the network that I'm a part of x29 Even if they're not truly confessional in a historic sense They still have statements of faith that are written up by the elders and these are clarifying documents that explain what they believe and what's important to them and what's valuable.

And I think that that's better than nothing for sure. A Problem is I think that a those are generally poorly written. They are not as detailed as I think they should be or could be and they they really they're just not put together by a.

Group.

So you believe as does everybody that adheres to a confession that these are very valuable and they are primarily spoken of as a way to prevent a Congregation a fellowship or even a denomination or even individual believers.

From straying into heresy or aberrant thinking and teaching. How is that accomplished with a confession?

Well a denomination believe which is helpful so that you know young Christians in particular Are guided along when they didn't have questions to read scripture. As Peter says it's hard to understand. It's all clear.

It's all perspicuous. But some parts are harder than others and so we have this clarifying document that helps to kind of guide them along the way. They're figuring things out. But it is in that sense.

It's also a tool for discipleship so that we don't just think that all the Bible is a great book and it kind of Guides me along my way. Like a confession might the confession actually tells us know. The Word of God is The Word of God it is the God-breathed inerrant Scriptures that you can trust that take your life on it.

This is worth dying over and so it becomes a discipleship tool that helps us to explore the scriptures. And in in such a way that we don't get Overwhelmed and over our heads as we're trying to make sense of something like Free will or as we're trying to be which is a huge deep Overwhelming topic or as we're trying to make sense of something like the virgin birth.

These can creep and confessions help us to begin to wrestle with those ideas in a way that has been tested over the century.

I'm going to repeat our email address. It's Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Excuse me Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the good old u .s. of a and.

We do have a listener that asked a question that is Really off topic, but I am going to include it because I'm going to add My own question that on the same general theme that he's asking about that kind of ties it in.

So, I hope you don't mind answering A question written by somebody that is not really sticking to the subject here but the Individual is writing to us from Let's see. Where is he is from Moravian Falls, North Carolina?

Jim and Jim wants to know Let's see, what is the difference between being filled with the spirit and having the spirit come upon a person in Worship and how I'm going to tie that in with my question. Does the either the 1689 London Baptist Confession or the Westminster Prohibit what would be considered today?

Charismatic experiences or these the perpetual Use of these sign gifts especially when we know that the confessions were written at a time when the charismatic movement had not even really Come about although, you know, we had not long after that in the Century or so later we had Edward Irving come about and he was the grandfather of the charismatic movement.

But is there anything in the confessions wording that would eliminate a charismatic from adhering to it, but if you could start with the Jim's question. Yes.

Okay. Well Holy Spirit comes upon individual where they are. So it's this command to be filled and it seems to be connected to the local church that That this is somehow connected to exhorting one another and singing together.

So I would say that being filled with the spirit is what the spirit normally does doing that to a group. It might take different forms or have to when he says, you know being On you in worship. I don't I don't really know what he means, but certainly the spirits regular activities are the works of conviction and Among the those who are already being regenerated and born again.

We have the work of conviction. We have the work of encouragement. We have the work of teaching. We have the Holy Spirit leading. So I think there are a number of things the spirit may do in the midst of corporate worship that produce an impact.

That is actually felt in our hearts and in our lives even and I think it's all 73 when the psalmist is You know really struggling with this theology. He says I know you're good to Israel God but it looks like you're good to the wicked and it looks like you're bad to the righteous because the wicked are having a Freepass and the righteous are suffering unto death and then he said I got to the place where I almost said this until I walked into the sanctuary of God and Then I saw their end and you get the impression that in the midst of coming into this place where worship happened Was impacted by the truth of God by the spirit of God and it brought about that change.

So that would be my my take on those those two questions.

Well, by the way, Jim in Moravian Falls, North Carolina You're receiving a free New American Standard Bible. Compliments of the publishers of the NASB who are sponsors of iron sharpens iron faithful sponsors since 2006 and They are now celebrating.

They're in their 74th year of publishing and we thank them for Helping mine sharpens to remain on the air. So thanks a lot Jim for your question. We're gonna be going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're gonna be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back. This is Chris arms and then our guest today if you just tuned us in is Joe Thorne and we are discussing the very controversial topic of creeds and confessions guardrails against heresy. If you'd like to join us on the air our Email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And we say that this is a controversial subject because most of evangelicalism today seems to avoid having a confession like the plague and there seems to be disagreements among us and even the Old school fundamentalists on this issue, although some fundamentalists do have confessions of faith.

There seems to be some strong opposition to them and even amongst the reformed there are some folks especially amongst some of the Calvinistic Baptists that that prefer not to have a confession of faith.

And if you could join us on the air with a question, we'd love to hear from you at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com, you know, I forgot to ask you or or have you clarify. When you were when you were describing the acts 29 group that you're a part of.

Did you ever. Specifically say why you had that tongue-in-cheek name of the chapter that doesn't exist.

Yeah, I think I explained at the beginning that that they they called it at the 29 when they the idea of The work of God.

Stopped with chapter 28, but God's work continued. Okay. Yeah, the last word was unhindered and you're going on the interdom. Yep.

And.

One of the things that might be said about the the concept of the confessions being a guardrail against heresy. Some would say well, that's that's not really true because look what happened to the Presbyterian Church and although we do have Conservative groups like our co-host today buzz is a member of the PCA We have the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

We have the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America the Evangelical Presbyterian Church and a number of different very conservative Bible honoring biblically faithful Calvinistic groups Identifying themselves as Presbyterian the largest of them all.

The which is now known as the PC USA the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America Has become very liberal has wound up really going through the that guardrail and Has crashed into the bottom of the mountain.

You do have some faithful congregations. I'm not broad-brushing. I have friends who are pastors in Evangelical Bible-believing PC USA congregations, but they would even say that they're a minority at least in most parts of the United States and you have you know people being Affirming homosexuality and abortion and all kinds of horrendous things let alone denying pillar Doctrines of the faith so that that's a denomination that started with the Westminster confession of faith.

How on earth. Could that have happened if they had that guardrail there.

Well the guardrail can crash through a guardrail. Perfect if you want to crash through it. Step that speed up to 80 miles an hour and hit it straight on and you'll go over the cliff. So yeah, it's a guardrail.

It helps to protect the guide. But it cannot ensure faith. And it cannot ensure, you know take different positions and ignore the confess. I'll tell you this though. You can ignore a confession of faith and go into trouble.

This happened with my alma mater the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. It was founded upon the abstract of principles written in 1858 or 1859 and Was the first you know Proper statement of faith.

And so when they articulated this What they found at the summit once they got in with it not conscious. And so now Southern is oh, yeah you can. Confession is oh, yeah, and that would be a.

Way for members or or prospective members to be able to determine whether a church is adhering to things that they believe are essential biblical truths and if the church Was in denial of the truths that are summarized in the confession that they claim they would be able to Challenge the leaders by saying you have really defied your own confession.

You've abandoned it This is this is not what you have sworn to uphold what you're teaching. Now they can actually challenge the church to be honest and either return to the confession that it claims to uphold or to Stop lying about it.

Or well, I like you have many Episcopal churches and Anglican churches saying that they Adhere to the 39 articles in there in the in the documents of the church and writing, but they don't really Adhere to them at all from behind the pulpit or in the pew.

Now does the PC USA have a modified version of the Westminster. Are they actually using The original Westminster confession of the faith.

Well, you know, I'm not familiar with what?

Okay, but like anything though, it could become more of a relic than something they actually use, right?

Yeah, I was shocked when I actually Was having a disagreement with a reformed Episcopal minister and this is no slam against that denomination because there's some really phenomenal Individuals that are in that denomination which began for a very noble purpose, but I remember being shocked when a Report performed Episcopal minister said saying to me.

Oh, I'm glad that we abandoned those That relic the 39 articles years ago, and I was I was shocked to hear him Refer to it that way.

And.

We do have a listener. Let's see, we have CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island. Who wants to know can a Dispensationalist consistently and logically hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession if he is a Calvinist dispensationalist Baptist.

And by the way CJ you're gonna be getting a free copy of the New American Standard Bible. Compliments of the publishers who are sponsors of this broadcast and What other ways other than it being a guardrail for heresy or a guardrail against heresy.

What would be another benefit of having a confession of faith?

Okay.

Marriage that is pretty is one thing together. What do we value and what we've not just unity. They would look at us and say hey, man, good job. I think you're wrong on some stuff, but good job. Obviously.

A bit because you know to worship God is to ascribe worthiness to God and you cannot ascribe worthiness to God if you don't Know who he is or what he does. If you don't understand what it means for our God to be tried you.

Yeah, and I would think that just like I heard an excellent.

Defense of using the Psalms in worship. I'm not talking about exclusive Psalmody, but I mean the fact that they should be incorporated into the worship. One of the benefits of that I have heard Was that we have a powerful connection with the Church of all ages even going back to God's people in Israel in the Old Covenant.

And I would think that a confession of faith is also a way of Connecting with and preserving.

The.

The rightful the rightful traditions if you will not not to be misusing the term traditions. But but with the Church of centuries past. Where you know? As as as the winds of doctrine continue to blow as the as the the time progresses into the future and things get softened and things may get blurred.

By the modern church of any error into the future. When when we have the moorings of what our brethren believed in centuries past. There is something valuable and precious about that, isn't it?

Don't usually get people to admit it on the radio.

Well, I was basically I probably got too long-winded. But I was comparing the benefit of the use of psalms with the benefit of the confession and that it unites us with all generations of Of the faith, of course not all but at least with the confessions that goes back several hundred years.

This is really important particularly Churches and and all of these things it's really helpful for us as new church. I'd a guy shows old and they're starting a new church in the neighborhood. Who are these jokers?

What are they all about? Oh, we got another team that we we share the same confession that Baptist like we're. We're a 17th century church in that sense. We are a historic church that has ties To the truth of God that has gone before us and we're not making it up as we go along.

We are a part of a larger body of Christians, so yes I love reciting the Apostles Creed knowing that for centuries Christian brothers and sisters have been reciting that particularly at their baptism.

And I love being able to. That's I think for me that's really important as a church planter and I think it's a benefit in general To show like hey, we're not doing our thing. We're doing God's name and.

One one of the things that I think is Valuable about things like a confession is that it can Draw greater unity amongst like-minded brethren. From different congregations as well. Isn't that an important thing, especially?

When we who are Baptists unlike my Presbyterian co-host We tip we typically do not describe what our fellowship is. As a denomination we are historically not keen on denominationalism or having a hierarchical structure that that extends beyond our local elders other than Christ himself and because of that independence and the autonomy of our congregations the 1689 London Baptist Confession, I would say well, I would think would be a great unifier amongst at least like-minded Baptists.