March 11, 2016 Show with Joe Thorn on “The Importance of Creeds and Confessions: Guardrails Against Heresy!”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Good.

Afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth listening via live streaming.

This is Chris arms and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday on this

gorgeous March 11th in 2016 at least it's gorgeous

here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

I don't know about where you live, but the Lord has certainly blessed us with breathtaking weather

today and I'm very happy that we were able to get back on the air.

After a Bit of confusion between my guest today, and I

who is supposed to be on the second half of Wednesday's program we both

Did not communicate very well when it came to the time.

He was supposed to be on since he is in a different time zone.

And but I'm so glad that we have Joe Thorne back on the program.

By now, he is no stranger to the iron sharpens iron audience.

He is pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in st. Charles, Illinois.

And today we're going to be talking about a very controversial issue.

It is the importance of confessions and creeds.

Guardrails against heresy.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron pastor Joe Thorne.

Thanks, Chris.

Yeah, I agree with you and why

don't you let our listeners know?

I know I always have you do this, but there are people who may be tuning in for the first time.

Tell us something about Redeemer Fellowship in st. Charles, Illinois.

Well, Redeemer is eight and a half

twenty nine network and we have had the honor and privilege of

sending out three other church.

In fact our third church.

Oh, wow.

Well, congratulations on that and in studio again with me is Reverend

Buzz Taylor who has become a regular part of this program lately and

I'm glad that the Lord was able to Get you here.

Well, he's always able to do whatever he wants, but I'm glad he enabled you to be here.

It's a better way of phrasing it just within Seconds of us going on the air

and welcome back to the program.

Co -hosts the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Well, thank you.

I didn't even have time to stop for coffee.

Well, that'll be less bathroom breaks during a live radio.

And.

If you'd like to join us on the air if you have questions of your own for Joe Thorne.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the good

old.

USA.

Can I ask a question first of all about the introduction?

Go ahead.

I'm not you.

You said Joe that you're in the Southern Baptist Convention and part of the x29 group or something to that effect.

I'm not familiar with that.

Well, see axe 29 is a book.

Is a chapter in a book that Luke wrote.

I'm told you turn at the organization.

There is no x29.

Go ahead.

The idea behind the name is that this is the continuation of the work in God of the work of God through the local church.

X 29 is a global family of churches across you know in multiple countries and

We're now headquartered I believe out of London but we have about 500 churches

in our network and We work together to plant churches.

So we like to say it's a global family of churches that plant churches.

We we are it's generally Reformed soteriologically or it is

Soteriology that all churches must adhere to its complementarian.

It's very gospel centered and Church planting is the point and so we all look a little

different but on a level of principle We have a lot in common.

So you have very Confessional reform churches in that group.

You also have some of the more modern Contemporary style churches that

are also theologically robust, but perhaps not as confessional in nature.

Well, I think a good place to start would be and it may seem like baby steps, but

there are New Christians listening there are non -christians listening on occasion.

And there are non creedal or non confessional churches.

Who are members of those churches I should say that are listening at times.

Why don't you give us a definition of a confession and some people use

The term confessions and creeds interchangeably, but I also heard people Distinguish between

the two, but if you could start with a definition

That is if it's a good one Obviously, you have a very bad confession that has the teachings of men

in it that have no Relation to the scriptures at all, but a bit of biblically sound one would

certainly meet your definition.

And I have heard some people and I don't know if this has any historical weight to it.

But I've heard a couple of people Differentiate between a confession and a creed they will say

That a creed is typically a shorter list of cardinal beliefs.

That was intended to be a unifying document amongst a broader

group of Christians where a confession is typically a lengthier and more

detailed document that would Differentiate that

specific group of Christians amongst Other Christians, it would be

more fine -tuned.

It would be It would be more obvious that it was an attempt to set

the group apart from Christians in general.

I don't know if you would hold to that difference, or.

Well, I think that's general creed.

They emerged early on in the first few hundred years of the early

church.

And yeah, they tend to be more lists a little

more lengthy.

But and confessions are more specific more detailed.

They are longer.

The the only place I would disagree Is in two areas one is and when some people these are

usually non confessional people will say.

Or people that are struggling with it.

Anyway, they'll say that creeds are inherently binding and they trump scripture whereas confessions

Don't do that.

Sometimes we'll say both do that.

Obviously, we're gonna disagree with those.

But I would also say and we'll talk about this when we talk about the purpose and the value of creed and confession.

They do distinguish one group from another but they also show unity between.

Differing groups in a lot of different areas.

So I think it goes kind of both ways there.

Yeah.

Of course I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here for a little bit here because I have had many

conversations with people who do not go to confessional churches and of course They

I'm trying to look at us from an outsider.

They would look at that and say well, why can't I just be a Christian?

Why do I have to be a Calvinist.

Why do I have to hold.

Isn't that isn't that being divisive?

No, I don't think

all Christians conscious Affirmations and denials

and therefore we all Create some divisions or affirm some.

You can't read the Old or the New Testament without seeing this emphasis on withdrawing from heresy and

to reject false prophets and so.

We do that as Christians and when we articulate our faith verbally or in written

form We are drawing certain lines in the sand and so a confession is Merely

another opportunity for us to clarify what we do in fact believe.

So it is generally very positive and In doing that sure it distinguishes us from others

and perhaps distinction or a division but usually

it's in areas that are critical to the gospel or important to the health of a local church

and.

The we might as well define catechism.

Which would be a teaching tool specifically?

Correcting

tool that's

made by God and enjoy

him forever.

So not only would children be taught to be encouraged to

memorize the founding of that bike.

And we happen to have on this show today two different confessions of faith

represented.

We have the 1689 London Baptist Confession represented by myself and my guest Joe

Thorne and My co -host buzz Taylor happens to adhere To the

Westminster Confession of Faith, which is the confession of the congregation where he is a member a

PCA congregation and the the major reformed

confessions.

Would be the 1689 the Westminster Confession and you have the three forms of

unity that are adhered to by the Dutch Reformed denominations

the Heidelberg Catechism The canons of Dort and the Belgic Confession

and you have the Savoy Declaration that the Congregationalists adhere to and the

39 articles of the Anglican faith when it comes down to the

1689 London Baptist Confession.

Joe what is the difference between that and the Westminster.

Because I know that the those who framed the 1689 London Baptist Confession were

Openly Copying most of what was in the Westminster, but they were distinguishing themselves as Baptists.

But if you could get more detail than the difference if you can right.

Well.

It was good.

It was good, but when the Westminster came out in 1647.

Beautiful and then the content Savoy Declaration and the Baptist

said you know what we cannot.

We're not gonna write something New and better than this, so let's use the Westminster and the

Savoy.

Because we affirm you know 90 of it and where we differ in a few particular areas

we're going to make it just and.

So they did that

in 16 and dissenting churches wish

it widely.

So in 1689 the Act of Tolerance was patented

to gather freely.

And so they published it in 1689 so that's why it's called the 1689 Second London Confession.

What it did was it affirmed what they believe, but it also showed that they are

not crazy.

And a Baptist that they aren't Heretics that they aren't weird that they are in fact very much

Armlocked with their brothers both Presbyterians and Congregationalists and where they differ.

Matters and is important, but it's.

And what would be?

The difference between the 1689 London Baptist Confession or the Second London Confession as it's called

also and the Philadelphia Confession of Faith because I understand they're nearly identical, but there is some

difference.

Yeah, the

Philadelphia

are Baptist.

Early Baptist debate

melody and instruments in music and so.

Again, I'm pulling from memory here but I do believe that in the

1700s when the Philadelphia was put together.

They added on to it, and I don't know if

you know anything about the lesser -known confession the New Hampshire Confession.

I had some Calvinist Baptist friends that had congregations that they pastored that adhered to that.

Right right

now.

As you may have I have in my 30 year Christian

as a 30 30 years as a Christian.

And all of those years being in a Reformed Baptist Church by God's good providence.

I've run across fundamentalist friends of mine fundamentalist Baptist.

Who think that if you have a confession of faith you are really adding?

To the Bible.

Or you are at least saying that the Bible isn't clear enough.

What we call the perspicuity of Scripture they would say that that is being denied

by having a confession and That they like to just stick to the good old Bible, and they don't need any confession.

But you're not at all or should I say the confessions are not all Intended to usurp

or even come on an equal par with the Bible are they?

Not at all.

Not at all a confession the teaching of Scripture,

but it's also you could say it is the teaching of church leaders and Just like we have

God ordained pastors and teachers in the church to help us better Understand and explain the

scripture and a tool that the church uses and to be

very clear for example in the 1689 and the Westminster when you're looking at their

Theology the very first thing that they talk about is the supremacy of the Bible.

And I'll just read a part of it for you, but in chapter 1 of the 1689 It says

the Horton and infallible rule of all saving knowledge.

Everything that is said taught or written

Must come under the screw word of God

their creed particular firm sola scriptura as a

guiding principle and.

Isn't it true that to make a statement like that?

My church doesn't have confessions of faith.

We only use the Bible.

As I've just mentioned that some of my fundamentalist friends will say isn't that in and of itself a

confessional statement.

Right.

Yeah, it's always you've just made an absolute claim.

There is no creed, but the Bible that is more of a creed than a confession.

It's ironic that that in denying creed they actually create their own and in fact.

Wouldn't you say that everybody has a confession.

It's either just a good confession or a bad confession and it's either.

Recognized as such or not, but it's still a confession.

Like even that even if you were in a church that was so whack.

Oh for lack of a better term.

So liberal so broad so diverse.

That it would have a statement that said that said We allow everybody in this church to

believe whatever they want.

That in and of itself is still a confessional statement.

Right, right

every other

body of belief not only may be very broad or

every gathering of

written down or implicitly understood and.

Going to the two polar opposite reasons why many people Reject confessions

one that you touched on before a more modern evangelical

church a church that Believes it is freer and it has more Liberty To

allow the people to come up with their own conclusions.

They may say that the having a confession is Really

robbing one of a Berean spirit to be searching the scriptures to prove everything

by them and they may out of fear just Claim to be in

lockstep with the confession because if that's what the church Adheres to they don't want to be disciplined.

They don't want to be kicked out or you have on the other extreme as we mentioned already

that there are those who believe that it's in addition to the scriptures and people raise it to the same par as

the Bible.

Now obviously both of those extreme Complaints can be

true if confessions are misused, right?

I Mean there are churches that were individual Christians that you would think that

they.

Are.

Holding up the Westminster as a superior document more reliable.

Then within the Bible itself sometimes by the way, they they state things but that that is obviously something

To be of what it all cost and would be cultic.

Yes, and I know and in the

reformed tradition and a lot of us are tempted towards this right that we get.

We're sometimes more excited.

We are sometimes more in love with our Confessional standards than we are with the

inerrant Word of God.

That's just a tempting that that happens.

It is easy for us to so find our identity.

In.

The confession.

Because it is so clear and unifying and all of that that the scripture does at least

functionally become You know less of an important issue.

So we need to speak against that.

We need to be very clear that the scripture is Authoritative and inerrant

and we should be more excited.

I mean, listen, I've got 1689 tattooed across the back of my hand.

It's very big so I mean people could draw that conclusion by looking at me and go wow.

I really love.

What I want to know is why Reverend buzz sitting next to me has three sixes on his bald spot.

All of the churches in the network

that I'm a part of x29 Even if they're not truly

confessional in a historic sense They still have statements of faith that are written up by the elders

and these are clarifying documents that explain what they believe and what's important to them and what's

valuable.

And I think that that's better than nothing for sure.

A Problem is I think that a those are generally poorly written.

They are not as detailed as I think they should be or could be and they they really

they're just not put together by a.

Group.

So you believe as does everybody that adheres to a confession that these

are very valuable and they are primarily spoken of as a way to

prevent a Congregation a fellowship or even a denomination or even

individual believers.

From straying into heresy or aberrant thinking and teaching.

How is that accomplished with a confession?

Well a

denomination believe which is helpful so that you know young Christians in particular Are

guided along when they didn't have questions to read scripture.

As Peter says it's hard to understand.

It's all clear.

It's all perspicuous.

But some parts are harder than others and so we have this clarifying document that helps to kind of

guide them along the way.

They're figuring things out.

But it is in that sense.

It's also a tool for discipleship so that we don't just think that all the Bible is a great

book and it kind of Guides me along my way.

Like a confession might the confession actually tells us know.

The Word of God is The Word of God it is the God -breathed inerrant

Scriptures that you can trust that take your life on it.

This is worth dying over and so it becomes a discipleship tool that helps us

to explore the scriptures.

And in in such a way that we don't get Overwhelmed and over our heads as we're

trying to make sense of something like Free will or as we're trying to be which is a huge deep

Overwhelming topic or as we're trying to make sense of something like the virgin birth.

These can creep and confessions help us to begin to wrestle with those ideas in a way that has

been tested over the century.

I'm going to repeat our email address.

It's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Excuse me Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

u .s. of a and.

We do have a listener that asked a question that is Really

off topic, but I am going to include it because I'm going to add

My own question that on the same general theme that he's asking about that kind of ties it in.

So, I hope you don't mind answering A question written by

somebody that is not really sticking to the subject here but

the Individual is writing to us from Let's

see.

Where is he is from Moravian Falls, North Carolina?

Jim and Jim wants to know Let's see,

what is the difference between being filled with the spirit and having the spirit come

upon a person in Worship and how I'm going to tie that in with my

question.

Does the either the 1689 London Baptist Confession or the Westminster

Prohibit what would be considered today?

Charismatic experiences or these the perpetual

Use of these sign gifts especially when we know that the confessions were written at a

time when the charismatic movement had not even really Come about although,

you know, we had not long after that in the

Century or so later we had Edward Irving come about and he was the grandfather of the charismatic movement.

But is there anything in the confessions wording that would eliminate a charismatic from

adhering to it, but if you could start with the Jim's question.

Yes.

Okay.

Well

Holy

Spirit comes upon individual

where they are.

So it's this command to be filled and it

seems to be connected to the local church that That this is somehow connected to exhorting one

another and singing together.

So I would say that being filled with the spirit is what the spirit normally does

doing that to a group.

It might take different forms or have to when he says, you know being

On you in worship.

I don't I don't really know what he means, but certainly the spirits regular activities are the

works of conviction and Among the those who are already being regenerated and born again.

We have the work of conviction.

We have the work of encouragement.

We have the work of teaching.

We have the Holy Spirit leading.

So I think there are a number of things the spirit may do in the midst of corporate worship that

produce an impact.

That is actually felt in our hearts and in our lives even and I think it's all 73 when the

psalmist is You know really struggling with this theology.

He says I know you're good to Israel God but it looks like you're good to the wicked and it looks like you're bad to the righteous

because the wicked are having a Freepass and the righteous are suffering unto death

and then he said I got to the place where I almost said this until I walked into the sanctuary of

God and Then I saw their end and you get the impression that in the midst of

coming into this place where worship happened Was impacted by the truth of

God by the spirit of God and it brought about that change.

So that would be my my take on those those two questions.

Well, by the way, Jim in Moravian Falls, North Carolina You're receiving a free

New American Standard Bible.

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So thanks a lot Jim for your question.

We're gonna be going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris arms and then our guest today if you just tuned us in is Joe Thorne and we

are discussing the very controversial topic of creeds and

confessions guardrails against heresy.

If you'd like to join us on the air our Email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And we say that this is a controversial subject because most of

evangelicalism today seems to avoid having a confession like the plague

and there seems to be disagreements among us and even the

Old school fundamentalists on this issue, although some fundamentalists do have confessions of faith.

There seems to be some strong opposition to them and even amongst the reformed there are

some folks especially amongst some of the Calvinistic Baptists that that

prefer not to have a confession of faith.

And if you could join us on the air with a question, we'd love to hear from you at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com, you know, I forgot to ask you or or have you clarify.

When you were when you were describing the acts 29 group that you're a part of.

Did you ever.

Specifically say why you had that tongue -in -cheek name of the chapter that doesn't exist.

Yeah, I think I explained at the beginning that that they they called it at the 29 when

they the idea of The work of God.

Stopped with chapter 28, but God's work continued.

Okay.

Yeah, the last word was unhindered and you're going on the interdom.

Yep.

And.

One of the things that might be said about the the concept of the confessions being a

guardrail against heresy.

Some would say well, that's that's not really true because look what happened to the

Presbyterian Church and although we do have Conservative groups like our co -host today

buzz is a member of the PCA We have the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

We have the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America the Evangelical Presbyterian Church and a number of

different very conservative Bible honoring biblically faithful

Calvinistic groups Identifying themselves as Presbyterian the largest of them all.

The which is now known as the PC USA the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America

Has become very liberal has wound up really going through the

that guardrail and Has crashed into the bottom of the mountain.

You do have some faithful congregations.

I'm not broad -brushing.

I have friends who are pastors in Evangelical Bible -believing PC USA congregations,

but they would even say that they're a minority at least in most parts of the United States

and you have you know people being Affirming

homosexuality and abortion and all kinds of horrendous things let alone denying pillar

Doctrines of the faith so that that's a denomination that started with the Westminster confession of faith.

How on earth.

Could that have happened if they had that guardrail there.

Well the guardrail can crash through a guardrail.

Perfect if you want to crash through it.

Step that speed up to 80 miles an hour and hit it straight on and you'll go over the cliff.

So yeah, it's a guardrail.

It helps to protect the guide.

But it cannot ensure faith.

And it cannot ensure, you know take

different positions and ignore the confess.

I'll tell you this though.

You can ignore a confession of faith and go into trouble.

This happened with my alma mater the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

It was founded upon the abstract of principles written in 1858 or 1859 and

Was the first you know Proper statement of faith.

And so when they articulated this What

they found at the

summit once they

got in

with it not

conscious.

And so

now Southern is

oh, yeah you

can.

Confession is oh, yeah, and that would

be a.

Way for members or or prospective members to be

able to determine whether a church is adhering to things

that they believe are essential biblical truths and if the church

Was in denial of the truths that are summarized in the confession that they claim

they would be able to Challenge the leaders by saying you have really

defied your own confession.

You've abandoned it This is this is not what you have sworn to uphold what you're teaching.

Now they can actually challenge the church to be honest and either

return to the confession that it claims to uphold or to

Stop lying about it.

Or well, I like you have many Episcopal churches and Anglican churches saying that they

Adhere to the 39 articles in there in the in the documents of the church and writing, but they don't

really Adhere to them at all from behind the pulpit or in the pew.

Now does the PC

USA have a modified version of the Westminster.

Are they actually using The original Westminster confession of the faith.

Well, you know, I'm not familiar with what?

Okay, but like anything though, it could become more of a relic than something they actually use, right?

Yeah, I was shocked when I actually Was having a disagreement with a reformed

Episcopal minister and this is no slam against that denomination because there's some

really phenomenal Individuals that are in that denomination which began for a very noble

purpose, but I remember being shocked when a Report performed Episcopal minister said

saying to me.

Oh, I'm glad that we abandoned those That relic the 39 articles

years ago, and I was I was shocked to hear him Refer to it that way.

And.

We do have a listener.

Let's see, we have CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island.

Who wants to know can a Dispensationalist consistently and logically hold to

the 1689 London Baptist Confession if he is a Calvinist dispensationalist Baptist.

And by the way CJ you're gonna be getting a free copy of the New American Standard Bible.

Compliments of the publishers who are sponsors of this broadcast and What

other ways other than it being a guardrail for heresy or a guardrail

against heresy.

What would be another benefit of having a confession of faith?

Okay.

Marriage that is pretty is one thing together.

What do we

value and

what we've not just unity.

They would look at us and say hey, man, good job.

I think you're wrong on some stuff, but good job.

Obviously.

A bit because you know to worship God is to ascribe worthiness to God and you cannot

ascribe worthiness to God if you don't Know who he is or what he does.

If you don't understand what it means for our God to be tried you.

Yeah, and I

would think

that just like I heard an

excellent.

Defense of using the Psalms in worship.

I'm not talking about exclusive Psalmody, but I mean the fact that they should be

incorporated into the worship.

One of the benefits of that I have heard Was that we have a powerful

connection with the Church of all ages even going back to

God's people in Israel in the Old Covenant.

And I would think that a confession of faith is also a way of Connecting

with and preserving.

The.

The rightful the rightful traditions if you will not not to be misusing the term traditions.

But but with the Church of centuries past.

Where you know?

As as as the winds of doctrine continue to blow

as the as the the time progresses into the future and things get

softened and things may get blurred.

By the modern church of any error into the future.

When when we have the moorings of what our brethren believed in centuries past.

There is something valuable and precious about that, isn't it?

Don't usually get people to admit it on the radio.

Well, I was basically I probably got too long -winded.

But I was comparing the benefit of the use of psalms with the benefit of the confession and that it

unites us with all generations of Of the faith, of course not

all but at least with the confessions that goes back several hundred years.

This is really important particularly

Churches and and all of these things it's really helpful for us as new church.

I'd a guy shows old and they're starting a new church in the neighborhood.

Who are these jokers?

What are they all about?

Oh, we got

another team that we we share the same confession that

Baptist like we're.

We're a 17th century church in that sense.

We are a historic church that has ties To the truth of God that has gone before us and we're not making it

up as we go along.

We are a part of a larger body of Christians, so yes I love reciting the Apostles Creed

knowing that for centuries Christian brothers and sisters have been reciting that

particularly at their baptism.

And I love being able to.

That's I think for me that's really important as a church planter and I think it's a benefit in general To show like hey, we're

not doing our thing.

We're doing God's name and.

One one of the things that I think is

Valuable about things like a confession is that it can

Draw greater unity amongst like -minded brethren.

From different congregations as well.

Isn't that an important thing, especially?

When we who are Baptists unlike my Presbyterian co -host We tip we

typically do not describe what our fellowship is.

As a denomination we are historically not keen on

denominationalism or having a hierarchical structure that that extends beyond our

local elders other than Christ himself and because of that

independence and the autonomy of our congregations the 1689 London

Baptist Confession, I would say well, I would think would be a great unifier amongst at least like -minded

Baptists.

Well, you

know

also I.

Will confess here that I am Chris already knows this.

I am ordained Baptist and I started out my first assistant pastor and senior pastor

were Baptist churches, but they were the fundamental Baptist independent Baptists.

And To tell you the truth even as a Baptist pastor

I had Great difficulty defining what I meant by Baptist.

And I was.

I remember of course I was a lot younger.

I didn't know a lot then but I was seeking for some kind of a unity.

What makes me a Baptist?

Why am I different from the others.

And I didn't learn about the Baptist confession until after I was a Presbyterian and I was dealing with Baptists

concerning the doctrines of grace and I bought the 1689 confession to show them.

Hey, look your history is the same as mine.

But when I saw that it's like this was what I was looking for back then and couldn't find.

Most Baptists have

emotional

difference

when we

both do the

Lord week

and

Churches we tend to do a little bit better at that.

I think.

But by the way, we also do the same thing when we are doing adult baptisms.

This one to throw them in for Chris's sake.

And let me repeat our email address, it's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who wants to know what is the difference

between a full subscriptionist and a Someone who is not in full subscription with a confession

and yet has some kind of an adherence to it.

Well, there are

two senses in which people generally subscribe to a confession.

They subscribe to a confession Because it is biblical, right.

So they All of it is well done.

They have no scruples.

No question.

It's solid and then there are others who subscribe in as far as it is biblical and so

they would say no, I'm a full subscriber, but there may be some differences and

Regardless, you know both in among Presbyterians and Reformed Baptist.

You can subscribe or affirm a confession of faith and if you differ

in a particular area than the confession you Generally have to write and defend that idea.

Yes or the leadership most common one I believe on

the Lord's Day or on the Sabbath.

I know that that's common a that's one of the common.

So if they can articulate that and explain like well here listen, it's a different take you my basic understanding is this what it

is.

They generally.

Sorry about that.

It was a weird sandwich.

I put your banjo down, please.

I Don't even know what that was.

But anyway I'm sorry.

Did you complete your thought that was sorry that you got interrupted by that sound effect there?

I was doing good until you picked up your banjo.

Yeah, well, you know that was one of the things too that I've noticed in the PCA was that of course, you

know.

To be the whole office in our church.

Which I am a deacon in the church.

I presently attend and you know, we had to go through and Explain where we agreed and they did want to know where we

didn't agree and but I think Really when I think back I only had one

area of disagreement with the Westminster.

And of course, I didn't realize that the North American one that we use Here actually took that out and that

was the because of the eschatological differences with the Pope being the Antichrist, you know.

Even have a problem with that.

So you you would use the older version of the 1689 that includes the Pope being the Antichrist.

Yeah.

No, no them.

I'm not complaining.

I may have my disagreements with you.

But in fact that we just Had David silversides in my program.

I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he believes that.

The papal office is the Antichrist.

Yeah, not just a not a not a specific Pope or a future Pope.

But the papal office and he has a booklet On that that I in fact, I'll

send it to you.

It's called a reformed and biblical view of the Antichrist.

But now that the whole you know for your listener there that the whole idea and my thoughts disappearing rapidly to

now, so.

But yeah, it's usually small things like that where there's there's differences of agreement.

But I I find out more and more all the time that the more I learn about my own confession The more I'm in

agreement with it the more I like it.

We're gonna go to our another break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is sick.

There's.

I was actually going to say 1689.

Can you believe it?

Our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

And please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with Joe Thorne and our discussion of Confessions and creeds guardrails against

heresy right after these messages.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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We would likely not be on the air without your wonderful gracious and generous support and we thank you

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We are back on the air with our guest today pastor Joe Thorne and we are discussing

Confessions and creeds guardrails against heresy and our email address is Chris Arnzen at

gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

By the way, have you ever heard Joe?

Of.

An Orthodox catechism, which is the Particular Baptist version of the Heidelberg catechism

by Hercules Collins.

Yes, and what do you think of that?

I've heard of it.

I've seen it, but I've never really used it.

I'm very familiar with the Heidelberg.

Okay.

Well, I'm just going to let our listeners know that they can get that from another one of our sponsors solid ground

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So, well, we thank them for their faithfulness to biblical orthodoxy.

And I realized that man.

Oh, man, I just took a big risk asking you about that without knowing what your answer would be.

Because you could have said man.

It's a horrible book.

But I'm glad that you at least Weren't familiar enough to

make a negative opinion to give a negative opinion on it.

And.

The the 1689 London Baptist Confession just because a lot of people may be totally ignorant

of Who has used this? confession from history.

You know, they still may be listening to us and thinking what on earth are they talking about?

I've never heard of this document and may think that we are from some weird fringe group or

cultic group.

That is some tiny Speck on the theological spectrum

that has no historical significance.

But there have been people great men throughout history who have adhered to this

confession including one of the most beloved figures of all of Christendom Charles Haddon Spurgeon the

Prince of preachers the 19th century Preacher in England who seems

to be beloved by people crossing the theological spectrum.

Okay.

I mean, I I've even met seventh -day Adventists who love reading Charles Spurgeon.

I've met all kinds of people who love him.

Obviously they I don't know how.

People who are militant anti Calvinists could read Spurgeon and claim to love him when he is

clearly was clearly a You know a bulwark.

Defending the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, that's for sure.

But which by the way, I don't even listen to podcast sermons.

Hardly ever but I read Spurgeon.

I think people they read his

sermons of

the Puritans.

Reflects that and people people are hungry for

that.

Well, it

seems

to me

that they couldn't talk about justification without giving you 15.

And so I think that's why I love Spurgeon so much.

They connect on one of those levels.

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I'm sorry Joe.

What were you saying?

You know, I don't know but you can

call yourself and ask.

Your people yeah, that's what I have.

I mean, I have a couple versions.

You know Jim

people who Joe

sorry who

aren't familiar with with.

Confessional churches.

Could still possibly have an idea as they're listening here.

Well, you're talking about these confessions and you're saying they're not on the order of Scripture.

Isn't that the the works of men?

You know, they want the Word of God but not the works of men.

I've heard this argument a number of times.

Could you address that.

And you know, because there's this kind of thinking like, you know I need Joe Schmo can come up with an idea and write a confession.

But I don't think they understand the care taken in.

Formulating these confessions and of course not any Joe Schmo could write one that stands the test of time.

They're hoping it will but it never does.

A.

Confession that's that's

worth using.

They adopted by by many many people and again, it's built upon The

Westminster and the Savoy.

So number one sure anybody can write stuff down.

That doesn't make it worthwhile.

Secondly, sure.

It's fair to say that this is the teaching of men as long as you're saying that every sermon your pastor preaches.

If if you mean that these are the words of men then fine, I'm okay.

But it is no different than a sermon.

It is no different than a book when John Piper wrote desiring God He

and he's which made me want to throw the book when I picked it up for the first time.

I.

Like what he says.

Good stuff.

It's oh, yeah teachers.

Articulate and expound and explain and unpack the

truth confessions clearly articulate and

explain.

Not a bad thing.

It's a good thing.

That's what we're supposed to do.

God's called us to do that as pastors and teachers.

Now the Confession just for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with either the

the London Baptist or the Westminster confession.

They may be intimidated by even the sound of it.

It's.

These are really small documents.

These are documents that could be read through at a very brief period of

time.

They are not intimidating or Lengthy tomes by any stretch of

the imagination.

So not only is it something that the average person could read through and and study

often from cover to cover It is also brief enough

where there is room for congregations and even individuals to have varying

views on non -essential matters, correct.

It mentioned that

you know, God created the world in six days.

It's a well, this is clearly teaching

24 -hour Periods of time literally and

other people would say well, it doesn't really push the point.

It's using the language of Scripture to say that God created the earth in six days, which we all affirm I mean scripture says

but it's not necessarily pushing this issue of 20.

It could be you know longer periods of time or whatever.

And so there are there is room for differences of Understanding where it doesn't

get really specific and drill it down and even then when it does in a church like in your average

Why don't know about your average reform Baptist Church that some of them are pretty uptight?

Deemer for

example, we and the elders are working to the 1689 I'm taking them through

that with the goal of the elders adopting that as a confession the elders adhere to in teaching

so we have the abstract and Our people who are members

do not have to agree with everything written in the confession.

They they have to be approved of by the elders after and so

we have people in our church who are members Reformed but they're not combative.

They're submissive to the teaching of the church.

They're not divisive.

They don't gossip we even have Egalitarians in our church we have

we have we have a couple of families who would say I think women should be able to be Pastors and elders and that's I don't know why that's a

problem and they would have their arguments.

But they know that we are very clearly Complementarian and they're happy.

They're not frustrated.

They're not angry.

Nobody's upset so and maybe we have a unique churches is

that if a member disagrees with an aspect of our Confessional identity it doesn't mean

that they're coming under discipline or are Excommunicated or can't join if they're not a member yet.

It means that they have to understand that this is where the church stand and you've got to be submissive to it,

right?

Yeah, there'd be more discipline or perhaps even excommunication would come into play I'm

assuming is if they were seeking to undermine your teaching.

By by you know whispering in the ears or even loudly shouting

To other people that our Leaders are wrong.

We must do whatever we can to Change this view that they have and you know are really trying to

undermine what you're.

What you're teaching there that would be where you'd have to do something to silence them in some way.

Right, right.

We

don't

like you.

Like we tell people

we're Southern Baptists right away.

We don't hide that even though it can be embarrassing.

To be a Southern Baptist.

We'll be deceptive.

So here's who we are.

But what they find is like wow, you know what these guys are Reformed.

But they're not angry about it.

These guys are Calvinist.

These guys are serious Calvinist, but that's not all they talk about.

They're really the focus is on the gospel itself.

Which is you know put on I think it's most beautiful display in the system of Reformed theology.

So I think if you're upfront and gracious about it.

To create much less of a problem than if you're a bulldog about every single issue and constantly

and I happen to know people.

Baptists who adhere to the 1689 and Presbyterians who adhere to the Westminster.

Who are both?

Amillennial.

Historic pre -millennial and post -millennial.

And Theonomic and non -theonomic, so I'm assuming there

are.

That there is definitely an allowance for diversity when it comes to eschatology.

But it's really just Discusses the eschatology that is essential right.

And about the the visible Return of Christ and so on.

That that is an essential that because there are as you know the

the hyper preterists who are denying a future return of Christ and are denying a

bodily resurrection of the dead and so on.

Yes

I.

Could be I told I could be.

Listen.

I don't think there's any way I'm wrong on those on my view of the sovereignty of God because I think that's so crystal clear but

I could be wrong

on my view

now your knowledge of what the

confessions both the.

1689 and the Westminster what they teach on the Lord's Supper.

Is there room for differences of opinion?

I know that would neither would ever Condone the idolatry of

Rome's Mass.

But there are even differences as you know amongst Reformed Baptists for instance on

The nature of the supper in regard to whether it is strictly a memorial like a zwingli

in view or more of a means of grace understanding of the of the supper

a View that Christ's presence is more

unique and more Powerfully realized in the supper than in other areas of life.

You know that you do have some differences of opinion.

As you may know does the confession allow?

Those kind of differences when it comes to the Lord's Supper.

Some but in in this and I'm much more familiar with the six

I'm not always sure unless I haven't seen 89 one is is

that the Lord's Supper is and.

And.

What do you think.

That that really Superior to all other reasons.

Why it is important for a church to have a good solid Historic

confession of faith.

And while you think while

you're there I'll give a.

I'll give our email address out one more time.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

I

think

I would go

back to

and so all of

that's true.

Need to be a people experientially.

You know what you were getting back.

I was trying to say I was gonna say before that Chris he actually gave you five of the top things when he said.

Was it clarity unity purity discipleship and and worship, but when

you think about it, too.

When you get a new convert And you turn them on to this stuff and they start reading the Westminster

Confession or the Baptist Confession of 1689.

They are getting.

In.

One reading more theology than I got the first few years of my Christianity even going to Bible College

and.

You know what faster way is there to ground somebody in the faith with the whole Council of God than through a

confession like we have.

Absolutely, and Newton just I love

you got a new guy.

We he was in the Bible and the first thing he says is

It's damn seen this election all over every page of the Bible.

It's everywhere.

Now and I said I want to memorize the book of the Bible.

Some Christians do that.

And he said really the memorized whole book and I said sure.

Now I haven't done it.

I didn't tell him that I just said yeah, you should memorize the book of the Bible.

It'd be good for you.

So he was a garbage man.

So he taped up the book of Galatians on his windshield and he memorized the whole book of Galatians.

And you know, that was 15 years ago.

He still got it down.

Yeah, so what you plug them into good theology you give them a W pinks the sovereignty of God.

Are you walking through the true bounds of Christians?

Yeah, you you give them some artistic taste you will give them a confession and they just feast and they

flourish.

Yeah, you know, I think that a solid confession

also is an Index or a table of contents when you are

looking for a new church if you have moved And you're in a new area or even before you move

you should be checking what church is going to be in that area that is biblically faithful and

For you to have either a sit -down or at least a phone conversation

with one of the elders there.

And go through the list on what does your church?

Teach about the Holy Scriptures.

What does your church?

Teach about the Holy Trinity.

What does your church church teach about God's decree of creation of divine providence the

fall of man of sin and and of the punishment thereof of God's covenant

of Christ the mediator of free will of effectual calling of justification of adoption of

Sanctification the saving faith of repentance unto life and salvation of good works

the perseverance of the Saints the assurance of grace and salvation of the law of God of the gospel

and the extent of the grace thereof of Christian liberty and liberty of conscience of religious

worship and the Sabbath day of lawful oaths and vows of the civil magistrate

of marriage of the church of the Communion of Saints of baptism in the Lord's Supper

of baptism of the Lord's Supper of the State of man after death and of

the resurrection of the dead and of the last judgment.

If you've got all of those questions answered, you're gonna have a very.

A.

Lot deeper understanding of where that church is coming from in regard to important matters of faith than

if you had not gone through that list and.

So obviously this is a good litmus test when finding a church, wouldn't you think Joe?

Yes, right

I never really did figure that out.

I I would rather than I would rather than be Arminian and Because at least I know they're reading their Bible and

they're trying to figure it out and they're doing their best.

Guys that like well, I just think it'll all pan out.

I'm a pan millennial.

Yeah,

obviously and

I wasn't

intending to mean

that if a church.

Doesn't meet your Satisfaction on every single one of those issues

that you shouldn't go to it but it gives you an idea of where there's where they stand and some of

those would be Absolutely essential.

In fact, perhaps when we come back from the break Joe you could go through some of the things that you believe are

Our issues that there is no wiggle room where they are absolutely core essential pillars of the

faith that one could not object to if if you were

going to deem them as a biblically faithful church, and we're going to our final break right

now and Joe will think about that when we're on our break if you'd like to join us on the air.

We've only got about 28 minutes left or so.

So, please join us at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

If you have a question of your own chris arnzen a gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back after these messages.

Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen.

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Lindbergh Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbergh Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and

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Welcome back.

And for those of you who missed my announcement earlier.

About the Resurrection Sunday celebration that is taking place at Lindbergh Baptist Church on

Lindbergh Long Island near the Queens Nassau border on Long Island on

March 27th 830 a .m. And 1045 a .m.

Make a note to contact them if you'd like to get directions and more details

their their.

Their website is Lindbergh Baptist org.

Lindbergh Baptist org and Their phone number is 5 1 6 5 9 9

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I hope I didn't read that number wrong earlier because I don't have my glasses with me.

I usually have them right by my computer in the studio and I can't find them right now, but

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phone number Incorrectly before and the website is Lindbergh Baptist org.

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They are having a free hot buffet breakfast as well from 915 to 1030 a .m. On

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We have a couple of listeners, but Waiting for their questions to be asked and answered, but I figured I'd like

you to First Joe go through some of the essentials Listed in the

confession where there is no in your opinion.

There is no wiggle room.

They are essentials of the faith.

Okay.

I'm saying the latter and of course after you're finished with the latter you can include the

Explanation a broader explanation of the the first.

Yeah, and

if you

wanted

to expand

that

to a

broader.

List.

That would be for a healthy church that would not necessarily.

You know only include the absolute essentials but something I think

these are.

I think

these are essential

Christ and.

I'm gonna take a listener question.

We have BB in Cumberland County Pennsylvania that

asks the question Should I attend a church

that says that they believe that the 1689 in Westminster Confession

are False documents.

They not only are non -confessional, but they they are opposed To these confessions and yet they seem

to be Bible believing and born -again.

Right.

Again, but I'm not hot in

facters and there is a caps lock charismatic church,

and I love those pastors.

They love the gospel.

They wrote that question in finds himself in a gear

Calvinism.

He's going to find himself frustrated in time.

Because as books of the Bible which I assume they are if they're a Bible believing church

if they're preaching the whole counsel of God.

And they're going to be touching on all of these issues the decrees of God of the sovereignty of God.

Election all of these things and you're gonna be you're gonna get frustrated.

I don't encourage people to leave their church.

I think there are a lot of other issues at play there that you have to think

about.

But to what degree are they hostile to reform theology and Churches in general that are hostile

it gets a little dicey.

Or hostile to reform theology would for me be a deal -breaker.

Because I know that as I'm trying to disciple my family.

That they would be hearing one thing from me and something else from the pastor who

and I would see as a great value.

To a having a confession is that When you are

seeking to have unity with another congregation That is outside of your immediate

fellowship or outside of your denomination, it's a good way to

just as we were talking about before about each of an individual looking for a church to join a

Church looking for other churches to have fellowship with even though they don't need to be in lockstep with one another.

It's good to know ahead of time where they stand on these important things, isn't it?

I would I would go to buzzes, you know, I would I would

go to a Strong I would go to well

since I'm in the same city

as buzz.

You don't have to worry about that.

Compromise there are there is a good Baptist.

But there are also a number of Baptists in our Presbyterian Church.

That's right.

There are.

In fact, I don't think I would ever join a church that would have buzz as a member.

But anyway, I Just twisted a Groucho Marx joke.

He said I would never join a club that would have me as a member.

Yes.

But now buzz.

I know that you have been through the spectrum of theology in your own pilgrimage.

When did you come yourself to realize the value of confessions?

Oh.

That's a tough one to say when.

Way back in my first pastorate.

I remember a next -door neighbor Talking about Reformed Theology and he was speaking of it very favorably

and I thought maybe that's something someday.

I'll look into you know.

But I had already preached series against Calvinism and I'm amazed by the way.

I want to at least say this that I was amazed now that I can look back and say how did I ever find such bad?

Source materials.

But anyway, yeah, I don't know I don't even know if Joe knows your pilgrimage.

No, no, I don't think.

Started off well, he was raised in a nominal Episcopal family and then became at

some point in his life fundamentalist Baptist went to Bob Jones University became charismatic

became ordained.

Didn't become charismatic at Bob Jones University, right right after he left.

Yeah, I was ordained Baptist and I was the assistant pastor of

an independent Baptist Church, then I pastored an independent Baptist Church and I started at that

church looking more into Reformed Theology but I also did a stint through the Pentecostal and charismatic

thing and I worked for Teen Challenge for a while and All the while continuing to study and I sort of just grew into

it.

It's hard to say exactly when I jumped the fence.

But as I read more and more well, I was reading more on eschatology and a lot of the you know people that

I really Valued their opinions on eschatology.

I found out we're reformed.

Well, maybe I better start looking into this a little bit more and then when I started buying the confession It's like wow, look at this stuff.

This is just tremendous.

And then you went through the Finley, Ohio Church of God and then finally the Presbyterian Church is where right now.

Yes.

Yes, I've been Presbyterian longer than anything now.

Okay, and.

Let's see.

There we have a listener.

Let's see here Harrison and Mechanics Berg who wants to know are there any Congregational churches left that

actually adhere to the Savoy Declaration that you know.

Yeah, I know of a group.

I don't know if you're familiar with them Joe, but the the four C's Group,

which is I think it's it's four C's stand for I think conservative

Christian Congregationalist Congress or something like that or coalition?

I can't remember exactly what they all stand for but there are a lot of these churches that left the apostate

United Church of Christ denomination and wanted to remain faithful to

congregationalism, but but could not remain with the the

Anti -biblical liberalism of that UCC denomination.

Are you familiar with that group?

And you know anybody else that would adhere to the Savoy.

And as you said that the 1689 Confession actually does incorporate.

Some of that

yeah, the differences with the.

The Savoy and the Westminster largely are involving a polity right church government.

And.

What.

What is it that?

You think.

Actually gives you more joy as a Christian.

Because people look at these things as just as kill joys as restrict overly

restrictive things.

That that that.

That really put a damper on Christian freedom and Liberty.

What.

How are you finding?

Joy as a confessional Christian.

Actually like I like.

Yes.

That's a great analogy.

What about the danger that may be attached to confessionalism of

sectarian pride of building a higher wall between you and other groups

professing to be Christians.

A higher wall then needs to be built and where There is a club

meant mentality like people who have a

prideful Proclivity in their life.

Well, I mean all men do have that to one degree or another but some have a

certain peculiar sin of pride of intellect a

superiority complex over others and it's just amazing how We

can list among our own numbers as reformed Christians people with that

sinful bent when the doctrines of grace are clearly meant to humble

men and make us realize that we are utterly helpless and hopeless

and dependent fully upon a sovereign God who is in control over all things

in the entire universe, but how do you how do you recommend that someone be

confessional and yet have victory over a prideful sectarian

Kind of an isolationist.

Behavior.

If you are reformed you

can't I mean

and don't say

it's not about

can you

would you be able to say

that you're Willing.

Can you learn for could a

megachurch pass?

Can you learn from that person and or do you already draw a line a boundary line which says like well God can't

speak to that person and can't use that person in my life.

That's a pretty good sign that you are in a bad place.

And I know I'm you know there and I would also encourage other

people listening who may not be reformed.

There's probably two or three of them.

Uh.

Here's an example.

He's really well known and uh, he was just going off

in them.

They're mean they're ugly.

They're argumentative.

They're warranted people but on the other hand.

You're not having a beef with reformed theology.

You're you're having a beef with jerks and big mouths in other words.

They're everywhere.

It's not calvinism that creates the big mouth.

It's just that some big mouths have latched on to calvinism and so don't blame the system of theology.

Of it.

Do as calvinists when we become combative or arrogant and we get pushback from other people because of

our attitude.

We just we chalk it up to persecution.

We're like, oh i'm just being persecuted because i'm telling it like it is.

I'm, just being real.

I'm just putting the truth out there and they hate me.

No, they hate you because you're a jerk.

They don't hate you because of what you're saying.

They hate you the way that you're saying it so I think there's a lot of room for us in the reformed camp to grow

in Kindness and compassion and in

learning now, thankfully.

Um, the guys that I hang out with and the guys that i'm friendly with they are what we call happy calvinists.

Yes, that's good.

Maybe about it.

They're just they just want to chill out and have a good time.

They want to read the word and pray together and play cards.

That's all I want to do.

Well, you know, you also have to look at where.

Where are these walls?

I mean when people say you're building walls, um.

Well, technically you could say there's a wall between chris and me because uh, you know, uh, he's a

baptist and i'm a presbyterian.

Uh.

And you know, I just recently had a conversation with somebody that simply was inquiring as to the uh, the

differences.

So I brought up the issue of baptism Uh infant baptism to show one of the differences and the answer the

response was well.

That's a silly thing to divide over and I got to thinking well.

Which one of us is supposed to give up our view?

Now this you're gonna find this comic, I mean, you know, chris and I are good friends.

Um.

We we would love to we'd love to debate the things and talk about them.

You know even where we we disagree, but that's not the same thing as a wall of division.

We're still we are viewing one another as as brothers in christ.

There is no wall of separation.

However, I will say this now this is you're going to find this a little bit comical.

Um, I came into reformed understanding when I was still In the assemblies of god

and uh, I went to my pastor and asked him to baptize my babies.

How'd that go over.

Well now here's the thing if this is my conviction.

That i'm supposed to have all of my children baptized.

And I go to a church that does not do that.

I have to change churches to follow my conscience.

And had nothing to do with the division over, you know.

From my friends in the assemblies of god it had to do with I had to go where I could.

I could practice what I believed right.

And in the same the same on the reverse side for a baptist with tiny children who was being

compelled by Pato baptist leadership in a presbyterian church to baptize those

babies and young children.

He would have to leave.

Uh, well, obviously it depends from congregation to congregation.

It's not building a wall of separation.

I knew so right.

Right, we are uh always going to as brethren in christ have

differences that.

Uh, each one has to be taken as an individual uh issue of division and has to

be Responded to with love charity and humility.

And they have different ways in which they affect our relationships it may have to do with.

Uh.

A person not being able to be an elder at a church.

Yes or teaching Sunday school or whatever the case is or even a deacon.

Yeah, but at the same time doesn't mean that you love that person any less respect them any less.

There are people that we have had preach from our pulpit.

In every reformed baptist church where i've been a member who could not be a member because they are

presbyterian we've had presbyterian and.

Uh some very well -known, uh.

Individuals and other pato baptist denominations speak at our churches.

Go ahead buzz, but also, um.

Since you already brought up the issue that there are jerks in every discipline we have to consider

a lot of the resistance to uh having confessional churches is

rebellion.

Just like they said of christ.

We will not have this man to rule over us.

Uh, it's kind of hard for a guy to be the head honcho.

Over a bunch of people when they have confessional beliefs, you know, a lot of it I believe

is just it's the flesh.

Back to that one

idea of walls.

I think of it a lot more.

Like uh fences in yards, right?

Like uh, like the presbyterians and the baptists or whatever.

They're neighbors and we're friends we have a fence with a gate.

We go into each other's homes.

We have each other in that

same neighborhood.

And there's real value in that.

And of course, there's nothing wrong with me being super excited when I meet some reformed baptist guy.

Right.

It's like when I see a guy with a beard and tattoos i'm always like Because he looks like

me.

This is just something fun about that.

And when I when I meet a guy that shares my convictions on on the lord supper.

Or on the sovereignty of god.

It's high five time.

It's it's it's smiled.

It's great.

There's nothing wrong with that.

That doesn't mean that i'm excluding anybody else it just means that we have a tighter connection on some level.

And we are out of time.

Uh, joe.

I know that your websites are redeemer fellowship .org Redeemer fellowship .org and also

joe thorn .net Joe thorn without an e at the end dot net.

And any uh way you'd like to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave the program.

If you want to love

deeply care about him.

Yes.

Uh to know him is to love him to quote that golden oldie song, right?

Yeah, and if you not want to know him that means knowing about him and and knowing about him is

understanding theology.

And I want to thank you so much for being a part Of the program and I hope that you come back very soon joe.

Hope to come back.

Thank you.

Chris.

Thank you buzz for having me on.

It's always a pleasure and thank you buzz for.

Serving as a co -host again.

My pleasure.

Hope everybody has a safe and blessed God -glorifying weekend and lord's day.

And I hope you always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior Than you are a

sinner.

God bless you all and we look forward to hearing from you and your questions next week on iron sharpens iron radio.