March 11, 2016 Show with Joe Thorn on “The Importance of Creeds and Confessions: Guardrails Against Heresy!”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listeners, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

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Earth listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this gorgeous

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March 11th in 2016, at least it's gorgeous here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, I don't know about where you live, but the

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Lord has certainly blessed us with breathtaking weather today, and I'm very happy that we were able to get back on the air after a bit of confusion between my guest today and I, who is supposed to be on the second half of Wednesday's program.

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We both did not communicate very well when it came to the time he was supposed to be on since he is in a different time zone, but I'm so glad that we have

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Joe Thorne back on the program. By now he is no stranger to the

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Iron Sharpens Iron audience. He is pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois, and today we're going to be talking about a very controversial issue.

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It is the importance of confessions and creeds, guardrails against heresy.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Joe Thorne. Thanks, Chris.

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Always a pleasure to be on. Always edifying and fun at the same time, which is the best kind of edification,

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I think. I agree with you. And why don't you let our listeners know, I know I always have you do this, but there are people who may be tuning in for the first time.

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Tell us something about Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois. Well, Redeemer is eight and a half years old.

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We are a Reformed Baptist, a part of the Southern Baptist Convention, and a part of the Acts 29

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Network. And we have had the honor and privilege of sending out three other church plants from ourselves over these past eight and a half years.

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In fact, our third church plant launches this Easter. Oh, wow. Well, congratulations on that.

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And in studio again with me is Reverend Buzz Taylor, who has become a regular part of this program lately.

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And I'm glad that the Lord was able to get you here.

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Well, he's always able to do whatever he wants, but I'm glad he enabled you to be here, is a better way of phrasing it, just within seconds of us going on the air.

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And welcome back to the program, co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Well, thank you.

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I didn't even have time to stop for coffee. Well, there'll be less bathroom breaks during a live radio show.

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And if you'd like to join us on the air, if you have questions of your own for Joe Thorne, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please include your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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U .S .A. Can I ask a question first of all about the introduction? Go ahead.

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You said, Joe, that you're in the Southern Baptist Convention and part of the Acts 29 group or something?

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To that effect? Yes, sir. I'm not familiar with that. Well, see, Acts 29 is a book, is a chapter in a book that Luke wrote.

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Oh, you're talking about the organization. Chris, there is no

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Acts 29. Go ahead. Go ahead, Joe.

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There is no Acts 29. The idea behind the name is that this is a continuation of the work of God through the local church.

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Acts 29 is a global family of churches across, you know, in multiple countries.

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And we're now headquartered, I believe, out of London. but we have about 500 churches in our network, and we work together to plant churches.

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So we like to say it's a global family of churches that plant churches. It's generally reformed soteriologically, or it does have a

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Calvinistic soteriology that all churches must adhere to. It's complementarian, it's very gospel -centered, and church planting is the point.

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And so we all look a little different, but on a level of principle we have a lot in common. So you have very confessional reformed churches in that group.

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You also have some of the more modern contemporary style churches that are also theologically robust, but perhaps not as confessional in nature.

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Well I think a good place to start would be, and it may seem like baby steps, but there are new

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Christians listening, there are non -Christians listening on occasion, and there are non -credal or non -confessional churches, or members of those churches

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I should say, that are listening at times. Why don't you give us a definition of a confession?

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And some people use the term confessions and creeds interchangeably, but I also heard people distinguish between the two.

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But if you could start with a definition. All right, well let's for the, for like right now at least, we'll just kind of say that they are synonyms.

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We can use them interchangeably for sure. I would just say that a confession is a carefully worded expression of the

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Christian faith that is derived from Scripture and intended for use in the local church.

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That is if it's a good one. Obviously you could have a very bad confession that has the teachings of men in it that have no relation to the

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Scriptures at all, but a biblically sound one would certainly meet your definition.

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And I have heard some people, and I don't know if this has any historical weight to it, but I've heard a couple of people differentiate between a confession and a creed.

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They will say that a creed is typically a shorter list of cardinal beliefs that was intended to be a unifying document amongst a broader group of Christians, where a confession is typically a lengthier and more detailed document that would differentiate that specific group of Christians amongst other

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Christians. It would be more fine -tuned, it would be more obvious that it was an attempt to set the group apart from Christians in general.

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I don't know if you would hold to that difference? Well, I think that's generally fair.

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You know, creeds aren't written anymore. They emerged early on in the first few hundred years of the early church, and yeah, they tend to be more list -like until you get to the

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Council of Orange. Now that's a little more lengthy. And confessions are more specific, more detailed, they are longer.

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The only place I would disagree is in two areas. One is when some people, these are usually non -confessional people, will say, or people that are struggling with it anyway, they'll say that creeds are inherently binding and they trump

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Scripture, whereas confessions don't do that. Sometimes they'll say both do that. Obviously, we're going to disagree with those.

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But I would also say, and we'll talk about this when we talk about the purpose and the value of creed and confession, they do distinguish one group from another, but they also show unity between differing groups in a lot of different areas.

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So I think it goes kind of both ways there. Yeah, now of course I'm going to play the devil's advocate here for a little bit here, because I have had many conversations with people who do not go to confessional churches, and of course they,

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I'm trying to look at us from an outsider, they would look at that and say, well, why can't

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I just be a Christian? Why do I have to be a Calvinist? Why do I have to hold... isn't that being divisive?

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No, I don't think confessions are divisive unnecessarily.

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All Christians have to make conscious affirmations and denials, and therefore we all create some divisions or affirm some division between groups.

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You can't read the Old or the New Testament without seeing this emphasis on withdrawing from heresy and false teachers, to reject false prophets.

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And so we do that as Christians, and when we articulate our faith verbally or in written form, we are drawing certain lines in the sand.

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And so a confession is merely another opportunity for us to clarify what we do in fact believe, so it is generally very positive.

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And in doing that, sure, it distinguishes us from others and perhaps makes a distinction or a division, but usually it's in areas that are critical to the gospel or important to the health of a local church.

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And we might as well define catechism, which would be a teaching tool specifically, correct?

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Yes, it's a teaching tool that's made up of a series of questions and answers that are intended to be memorized and then taught.

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So the famous catechetical question and answer that many, many

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Christians know, even if they're not confessional, is the first question from the Westminster Shorter Catechism, what is man's chief end?

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Meaning, what is the purpose for which we exist? And the answer is, man's chief end is to glorify

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God and enjoy him forever. So not only would children be taught the meaning of that, but they would be encouraged to memorize the question and answer, and then the expounding of that by teachers and parents would firmly root them in the truth that they get from Scripture.

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And we happen to have on this show today two different confessions of faith represented.

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We have the 1689 London Baptist Confession represented by myself and my guest,

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Joe Thorne, and my co -host, Buzz Taylor, happens to adhere to the

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Westminster Confession of Faith, which is the confession of the congregation where he is a member, a

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PCA congregation. And the major Reformed Confessions would be the 1689, the

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Westminster Confession. And you have the three forms of unity that are adhered to by the

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Dutch Reformed denominations, the Heidelberg Catechism, the

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Canons of Dort, and the Belgic Confession. And you have the Savoy Declaration that the

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Congregationalists adhere to, and the 39 Articles of the

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Anglican Faith. When it comes down to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, Joe, what is the difference between that and the

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Westminster? Because I know that those who framed the 1689 London Baptist Confession were openly copying most of what was in the

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Westminster, but they were distinguishing themselves as Baptists. But if you could get more detail on the difference, if you can.

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Right. Well, the first Reformed Baptist Confession was written in 1644, called the

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London Confession, and it was good. It was good. But when the Westminster came out in 1647, the

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Baptists said, holy smokes, that thing is awesome. That thing is beautiful.

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And then the Congregationalists adapted it in the Savoy Declaration, and the Baptists said, you know what, we cannot, we're not going to write something new and better than this, so let's use the

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Westminster and the Savoy, because we affirm, you know, 90 % of it, and where we differ in a few particular areas, we're going to make adjustments.

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And so they did that in 1677, but because of the persecution from the state against dissenting churches in England, they couldn't really put their names on it and publish it widely.

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So in 1689, the Act of Tolerance was passed, and there was freedom now, and liberty for Christians to dissent and to gather freely.

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And so they published it in 1689, so that's why it's called the 1689 Second London Confession, or Baptist Confession of Faith.

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And what it did was, it affirmed what they believe, but it also showed that they are not crazy

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Anabaptists, that they aren't heretics, that they aren't weird, that they are in fact very much armlocked with their brothers, both

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Presbyterians and Congregationalists. And where they differ matters and is important, but it certainly isn't any cause for alarm.

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And what would be the difference between the 1689 London Baptist Confession, or the

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Second London Confession as it's called also, and the Philadelphia Confession of Faith, because I understand they're nearly identical, but there is some difference.

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Yeah, the Philadelphia has an addition,

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I believe, on hymnody, on song, if I'm remembering correctly, and that was not originally a part.

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Baptists, early Baptists, there was debate about the use of melody and instruments in music, and so again,

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I'm pulling from memory here, but I do believe that in the 1700s, when

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Philadelphia was put together, they added on to it so that they would have a clear statement on that particular issue.

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And I don't know if you know anything about the lesser known confession, the New Hampshire Confession. I had some

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Calvinist Baptist friends that had congregations that they pastored that adhered to that.

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Right, right, which is sort of a reduction and simplification of many of the truths in the 1689.

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Now, as you may have, I have in my 30 -year

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Christian, 30 years as a Christian, and all of those years being in a

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Reformed Baptist Church, by God's good providence, I've run across fundamentalist friends of mine, fundamentalist

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Baptists, who think that if you have a confession of faith, you are really adding to the

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Bible, or you are at least saying that the Bible isn't clear enough, what we call the perpiscuity of Scripture.

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They would say that that is being denied by having a confession, and that they like to just stick to the good old

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Bible, and they don't need any confession. But you're not at all, or should I say the confessions are not all intended to usurp or even come on an equal par with the

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Bible, are they? Not at all. Not at all. A confession is, essentially, it's the teaching of Scripture, but it's also, you could say, it is the teaching of church leaders.

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And just like we have God -ordained pastors and teachers in the church to help us better understand and explain the

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Scriptures, so confessions are an instrument and a tool that the church uses. And to be very clear, for example, in the 1689 and the

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Westminster, when you're looking at their theology, the very first thing that they talk about is the supremacy of the

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Bible. And I'll just read a part of it for you, but in Chapter 1 of the 1689, it says, "...the

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Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience."

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And so everything that is said, taught, or written, every tradition, must come under the scrutiny and the authority of the

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Word of God. So our confessions, our creeds, particularly in the Reformed tradition, all affirm

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Sola Scriptura as a guiding principle. And isn't it true that to make a statement like that, my church doesn't have confessions of faith, we only use the

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Bible, as I've just mentioned that some of my fundamentalist friends will say, isn't that in and of itself a confessional statement?

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Right, right, yeah, it's always, you've just made an absolute claim. There is no creed but the Bible. That is more of a creed than a confession, in a lot of people's estimations.

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There it is, this one sentence that you don't find in the Scripture at all.

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It goes against what we see in the Scripture. You look at the Shema, there's a creed, or a confession.

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You look in 1 Corinthians 15 3, there's the beginning of a confession. And yeah, it's ironic that in denying creeds, they actually create their own.

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In fact, wouldn't you say that everybody has a confession, it's either just a good confession or a bad confession, and it's either recognized as such or not, but it's still a confession.

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Like even if you were in a church that was so whack -o, for lack of a better term, so liberal, so broad, so diverse, that it would have a statement that said, we allow everybody in this church to believe whatever they want.

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That in and of itself is still a confessional statement. Right, right. Every gathering of believers, and I don't mean that in the

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Biblical sense, right, every religious gathering has a particular culture, it has a particular body of belief.

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Now they may be very few, and they may be very broad, or they may be many, and very detailed, but every gathering of religious people does have some sort of creed, either explicitly written down or implicitly understood by the leadership, and usually the people as well.

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And going to the two polar opposite reasons why many people reject confessions, one that you touched on before, a more modern evangelical church, a church that believes it is freer and has more liberty to allow the people to come up with their own conclusions, they may say that having a confession is really robbing one of a

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Berean spirit to be searching the scriptures to prove everything by them, and they may out of fear just claim to be in lockstep with the confession, because if that's what the church adheres to, they don't want to be disciplined, they don't want to be kicked out.

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Or you have on the other extreme, as we mentioned already, that there are those who believe that it's in addition to the scriptures, and people raise it to the same par as the

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Bible. Now obviously both of those extreme complaints can be true if confessions are misused.

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Right. I mean there are churches that, or individual Christians, that you would think that they are holding up the

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Westminster as a superior document, more reliable than the

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Bible itself, sometimes by the way they state things. But that is obviously something to be avoided at all costs and would be cultic.

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Yes, and I think those of us that are confessional, we need to be the first ones to speak out against that.

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And we see this in the reformed tradition, and a lot of us are tempted toward this, right? That we get, we're sometimes more excited, we're sometimes more in love with our confessional standards than we are with the inherent

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Word of God. That's just a temptation, that's just something that happens. It is easy for us to so find our identity in, you know, our reformed standards or in the confession, because it is so clear and unifying and all of that, that the

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Scripture does at least functionally become, you know, less of an important issue.

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So we need to speak against that. We need to be very clear that the Scripture is authoritative and inerrant, and it is the very

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Word of God. We should be more excited about that than, I mean, listen, I've got 1689 tattooed across the back of my hand.

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It's very big. So I mean, people could draw that conclusion by looking at me and go, wow, I really love tattoos or really love 1689 more than they love the

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Word of God. What I want to know is why Reverend Buzz sitting next to me has three sixes on his bald spot.

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We should speak against that, and we should show a better way.

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But honestly, like all of the churches in the network that I'm a part of, Acts 29, even if they're not truly confessional in a historic sense, they still have statements of faith that are written up by the elders, and these are clarifying documents that explain what they believe and what's important to them and what's valuable, and I think that that's better than nothing for sure.

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The problem is, I think that A, those are generally poorly written, they are not as detailed as I think they should be or could be, and they really, they're just not put together by a group of world -class pastor -theologians as has been done in the past.

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So there's a bunch of other reasons as well why I think it's better to adopt a historic confession of faith, even if you have scruples or take exception to one or more of the parts of it, than it is to just draw up your own.

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So you believe, as does everybody that adheres to a confession, that these are very valuable and they are primarily spoken of as a way to prevent a congregation, a fellowship, or even a denomination, or even individual believers, from straying into heresy or aberrant thinking and teaching.

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How is that accomplished with a confession? Well, it's one of the beauties of a great confession of faith that, you know, it does a lot.

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It clarifies what a church believes or what a denomination believes, which is helpful so that, you know, young Christians in particular are guided along when they begin to have questions.

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They're reading Scripture, and some of it, some of Scripture, as Peter says, is hard to understand.

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It's all clear, it's all perspicuous, but some parts are harder than others. And so we have this clarifying document that helps to kind of guide them along the way as they're figuring things out.

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But it is, in that sense, it's also a tool for discipleship, so that we don't just think that, oh, the

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Bible's a great book and it kind of guides me along my way like a confession might. The confession actually tells us, no, the

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Word of God is the Word of God. It is the God -breathed, inerrant Scriptures that you can trust, that you can stake your life on.

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This is worth dying over. And so it becomes a discipleship tool that helps us to explore the

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Scriptures in such a way that we don't get overwhelmed and over our heads as we're trying to make sense of something like free will, or as we're trying,

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I mean, which is a huge, deep, overwhelming topic, or as we're trying to make sense of something like the virgin birth.

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These creeds and confessions help us to begin to wrestle with those ideas in a way that has been tested over the century.

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I'm going to repeat our email address. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Excuse me, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please include your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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U .S. of A. And we do have a listener that asked a question that is really off topic, but I am going to include it because I'm going to add my own question that, on the same general theme that he's asking about, that kind of ties it in.

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So I hope you don't mind answering a question written by somebody that is not really sticking to the subject here.

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But the individual is writing to us from, let's see, where is he?

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He is from Moravian Falls, North Carolina. Jim. And Jim wants to know, let's see, what is the difference between being filled with the spirit and having the spirit come upon a person in worship?

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And I'm going to tie that in with my question. Does either the 1689

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London Baptist Confession or the Westminster prohibit what would be considered today charismatic experiences or the perpetual use of the sign gifts, especially when we know that the confessions were written at a time when the charismatic movement had not even really come about, although we had not long after that, in the century or so later, we had

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Edward Irving come about and he was the grandfather of the charismatic movement. But is there anything in the confession's wording that would eliminate a charismatic from adhering to it?

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But if you could start with Jim's question. Sure, sure.

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So his question was, what's the difference between being filled with the spirit and the spirit of God coming upon a person in worship?

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Yes. Okay, well, one is a clearly biblical idea, and the other is sort of a conversational way of talking about an experience that he might mean something different than I might mean by.

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And so my understanding of being filled with the spirit is when the Holy Spirit comes upon individuals, perhaps for a specific period of time, where they are experiencing greater influence of the spirit than they had previously.

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In the New Testament, we're told to be filled with the spirit, right? Do not get drunk on wine in Ephesians 5, but be filled with the spirit.

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And so it's this command to be filled, and it seems to be connected to the local church, that this is somehow connected to exhorting one another and singing together.

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So I would say that being filled with the spirit is what the spirit normally does in his ministry, but he's doing that to a greater degree in a specific individual for a period of time.

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And it might take different forms or have different emphases. Now when he says, you know, having the spirit come upon you in worship,

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I don't really know what he means, but certainly the spirit's regular activities are the work of conviction, and among those who have already been regenerated and born again, we have the work of conviction, we have the work of encouragement, we have the work of teaching, we have the

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Holy Spirit leading. So I think there are a number of things the spirit may do in the midst of corporate worship that produce an impact that is actually felt in our hearts and in our lives.

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Even in, I think it's Psalm 73, when the psalmist is, you know, really struggling with his theology, he says,

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I know you're good to Israel, God, but it looks like you're good to the wicked, and it looks like you're bad to the righteous, because the wicked are having a free pass, and the righteous are suffering unto death.

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And then he says, I got to the place where I almost said this, until I walked into the sanctuary of God, and then

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I saw their end. And you get the impression that in the midst of coming into this place where worship happened, the psalmist was impacted by the truth of God, by the spirit of God, and it brought about that change.

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So that would be my take on those two questions. By the way,

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Jim, in Moravian Falls, North Carolina, you're receiving a free

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Iron Sharpens to remain on the air. So thanks a lot, Jim, for your question. We're gonna be going to a break right now.

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If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Thriving Difference. Welcome back.

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This is Chris Arnzen, and our guest today, if you just tuned us in, is Joe Thorn, and we are discussing the very controversial topic of creeds and confessions, guardrails against heresy.

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If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

35:41

and we say that this is a controversial subject because most of evangelicalism today seems to avoid having a confession like the plague, and there seems to be disagreements among us and even the old -school fundamentalists on this issue, although some fundamentalists do have confessions of faith, there seems to be some strong opposition to them, and even amongst the

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Reformed, there are some folks, especially amongst some of the Calvinistic Baptists, that prefer not to have a confession of faith.

36:22

And if you could join us on the air with a question, we'd love to hear from you. chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

36:28

You know, I forgot to ask you or have you clarify, when you were describing the

36:36

Acts 29 group that you were part of, did you ever specifically say why you had that tongue -in -cheek name of the chapter that doesn't exist?

36:45

Yeah, I think I explained at the beginning that they called it

36:50

Acts 29 when they started, because it is the idea of the work of God in the church and the planting of churches continues.

37:01

So the book of Acts stops with chapter 28, but God's work continues, so they just called it

37:06

Acts 29. Yeah, the last word was unhindered, and you're going unhindered on. And one of the things that might be said about the concept of the confessions being a guardrail against heresy, some would say, well, that's not really true, because look what happened to the

37:29

Presbyterian Church. And although we do have conservative groups like our co -host today,

37:35

Buzz, is a member of the PCA, we have the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, we have the

37:40

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and a number of different, very conservative,

37:48

Bible -honoring, biblically faithful, Calvinistic groups identifying themselves as Presbyterian.

37:57

The largest of them all, which is now known as the PCUSA, the

38:03

Presbyterian Church in the United States of America, has become very liberal, has wound up really going through that guardrail and has crashed into the bottom of the mountain.

38:19

You do have some faithful congregations, I'm not broad -brushing, I have friends who are pastors in Evangelical Bible -believing

38:27

PCUSA congregations, but they would even say that they're a minority, at least in most parts of the

38:33

United States, and you have people being affirming homosexuality and abortion and all kinds of horrendous things, let alone denying pillar doctrines of the faith, so that's a denomination that started with the

38:51

Westminster Confession of Faith. How on earth could that have happened if they had that guardrail there?

38:58

Well, the guardrail is just that, a guardrail. A car can crash through a guardrail.

39:06

It's not perfect. If you were to crash through it, just step that speed up to 80 miles an hour and hit it straight on and you'll go over the cliff.

39:14

So yeah, the guardrail, it helps to protect the guide, but it cannot ensure faith, and it cannot ensure obedience.

39:23

Churches can begin to take different positions and ignore the

39:29

Confession of Faith that they had formally started with. I'll tell you this, though. You can ignore a

39:36

Confession of Faith and go into trouble. This happened with my alma mater, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

39:43

It was founded upon the abstract of principles written in 1858 or 1859, and it was the first proper statement of faith written among Southern Baptists.

39:54

And so when they articulated this Calvinistic document, it's what they founded the seminary upon.

40:01

And as the decades went by, and once they got into the 20th century, they really abandoned that, and the seminary became liberal.

40:10

But when Dr. Mohler became president, he thought that, hey, listen, we are a confessional school.

40:17

We assign a covenant that says we will teach in accordance with and not contrary to this confession.

40:24

So if you do teach contrary to it, you're fired. And that's what happened, and that's why

40:30

Southern Seminary was able to turn around and be recaptured, not just by a confessional heritage, but by the gospel itself, by the truth of God.

40:39

And so now Southern is, I think, one of the greatest seminaries you could possibly attend. So yeah, you can ignore it and crash, but a confession is also an instrument by which you can be restored as a church.

40:53

Yeah, and that would be a way for members or prospective members to be able to determine whether a church is adhering to things that they believe are essential biblical truths.

41:12

And if the church was in denial of the truths that are summarized in the confession that they claim, they would be able to challenge the leaders by saying, you have really defied your own confession.

41:27

You've abandoned it. This is not what you have sworn to uphold, what you're teaching now.

41:33

They can actually challenge the church to be honest and either return to the confession that it claims to uphold or to stop lying about it.

41:47

You have many Episcopal churches and Anglican churches saying that they adhere to the 39 articles in the documents of the church in writing, but they don't really adhere to them at all from behind the pulpit or in the pew.

42:04

Right, right. It is, there it is, again, has the capacity to function as a safeguard for the church, and I completely value that, value the confessions for that reason.

42:20

Here is the one, I think, good thing about these confessional churches that have doctrinally and practically abandoned the meaning of the confession.

42:31

For example, I was recently, oh it wasn't that recent, a couple years ago I was at a PCUSA church, and this is a church that does not affirm what

42:42

I would consider to be biblical Christianity. And yet, they use the confession.

42:49

They use the book of order. And in doing that, they are sharing the gospel.

42:56

They are sharing the gospel that we believe because it's in the confessional standard. So in their teaching and preaching, you're not going to hear it, but when they use the confession, it's there.

43:06

And people can be saved and sanctified through the truth of God communicated there, so at least there's that good thing happening through the confession, if not through the leadership itself.

43:16

Now, does the PCUSA have a modified version of the Westminster, or are they actually using the original

43:22

Westminster confession of the faith? Well, you know, I'm not familiar with what they use.

43:29

I'm pretty sure they use the Westminster standards, though. Okay, but like anything though, it could become more of a relic than something they actually use.

43:36

Right, right. Yeah, I was shocked when I actually was having a disagreement with a

43:43

Reformed Episcopal minister, and this is no slam against that denomination because there's some really phenomenal individuals that are in that denomination, which began for a very noble purpose.

43:57

But I remember being shocked when a Reformed Episcopal minister said, saying to me, oh,

44:03

I'm glad that we abandoned those, that relic, the 39 articles years ago.

44:09

And I was shocked to hear him refer to it that way. And we do have a listener, let's see, we have

44:21

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, who wants to know, can a dispensationalist consistently and logically hold to the 1689

44:30

London Baptist Confession if he is a Calvinist dispensationalist Baptist? Ah, not really, no.

44:40

The 1689 speaks of the covenant of grace and was developed by, written by particular

44:49

Baptists who believed in a covenant theology. And so a dispensationalist, certainly of the

44:56

Schofield variety, the old school dispensationalist, would be wildly incompatible with the 1689.

45:04

The progressive dispensationalists that have a more Calvinistic soteriology would be more comfortable with it.

45:09

But again, when it comes to the way that the covenants unite the history of redemption, they would be in disagreement.

45:18

So progressives could affirm much of it, but not all of it. And by the way,

45:24

CJ, you're going to be getting a free copy of the New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers who are sponsors of this broadcast.

45:34

And what other ways, other than it being a guardrail for heresy, or a guardrail against heresy, what would be another benefit of having a confession of faith?

45:45

Okay, so I see five. I think I mentioned them briefly earlier. One is clarity.

45:51

So, you know, a confession clarifies what a church believes, what a denomination believes, there's no question. And the 1689 is beautiful.

45:58

It has a section on marriage that is super relevant even today. So clarity is one thing.

46:04

Secondly, there's unity. It provides a context in which people say, like, oh, we are one church, we are bound together by the truth of God.

46:15

And which do we value and what do we believe? Well, here it is. And it's not just unity among the churches that hold to that particular confession of faith.

46:26

I would hope that our Presbyterian brothers would say, and I view them as our older, more sophisticated brothers, they would look at us and say, hey man, good job.

46:36

I think you're wrong on some stuff, but good job. We're obviously united on the essentials here, at least most of the essentials.

46:43

So there's unity. Third is purity, which you've been talking about throughout, right? Protecting the church from heresy, false doctrine, false teachers.

46:51

So purity is important. It functions as a tool of discipleship. You know, people read, they invest, they can get the expositions of these tools, these confessional statements.

47:04

But honestly, fifthly, I would say that it is a great help to worship. And I think this gets left off quite a bit, because to worship

47:14

God is to ascribe worthiness to God. And you cannot ascribe worthiness to God if you don't know who

47:19

He is or what He does. If you don't understand what it means for our God to be triune, for the persons of God to be co -eternal, if you don't understand the incarnation or the decrees of God.

47:33

So the more we understand our Bibles, the more we understand our

47:39

God, the greater capacity we have to proclaim His excellencies and to adore

47:44

Him, to stand in wonder of Him in worship, both corporate and private. Yeah, and I would think that, just like I heard an excellent defense of using the

47:57

Psalms in worship, I'm not talking about exclusive psalmody, but I mean the fact that they should be incorporated into the worship.

48:06

One of the benefits of that I have heard was that we have a powerful connection with the church of all ages, even going back to God's people in Israel in the

48:20

Old Covenant. And I would think that a confession of faith is also a way of connecting with and preserving the rightful traditions, if you will, not to be misusing the term traditions, but with the church of centuries past, where, you know, as the winds of doctrine continue to blow, as the time progresses into the future, and things get softened, and things may get blurred by the modern church of any era into the future, when we have the moorings of what our brethren believed in centuries past, there is something valuable and precious about that, isn't it?

49:14

Yeah, yeah, I had a thought there, and it just faded away.

49:23

I probably have never had that happen before. Do me a favor and summarize that.

49:31

We just don't usually get people to admit it on the radio. Well, I was basically,

49:36

I probably got too long -winded, but I was comparing the benefit of the use of psalms with the benefit of the confession, and that it unites us with all generations of the faith.

49:49

Of course, not all, but at least with the confessions, it goes back several hundred years.

49:54

This is really important, particularly for those of us in church planting. With the proliferation of cults and abusive churches and all of these things, it's really helpful for us as new churches, right?

50:09

A guy shows up with two other couples, and they're starting a new church in the neighborhood. Who are these jokers?

50:15

What are they all about? Oh, we got another Jesus freak. What is his special new approach?

50:21

What's this cutting -edge guy going to do? There is a comfort in saying that we share the same confession that Baptists shared in the 1600s.

50:32

We're a 17th century church in that sense. We are a historic church that has ties to the truth of God that has gone before us, and we're not making it up as we go along.

50:43

We are a part of a larger body of Christians. So yes, I love reciting the

50:48

Apostles' Creed, knowing that for centuries, Christian brothers and sisters have been reciting that, particularly at their baptism.

50:58

I think for me, that's really important as a church planter, and I think it's a benefit in general to show it like, hey, we're not doing our thing.

51:15

We're doing God's thing through the church, and we're a part of something bigger than this one congregation.

51:22

And one of the things that I think is valuable about things like a confession is that it can draw greater unity amongst like -minded brethren from different congregations as well.

51:43

Isn't that an important thing? Especially when we who are Baptists, unlike my

51:48

Presbyterian co -host, we typically do not describe what our fellowship is as a denomination.

51:59

We are historically not keen on denominationalism or having a hierarchical structure that extends beyond our local elders other than Christ himself.

52:14

And because of that independence and the autonomy of our congregations, the 1689

52:21

London Baptist Confession, I would think would be a great unifier amongst at least like -minded

52:27

Baptists. Yeah, absolutely. It's important for those independents like us

52:36

Baptists to have that. It is a helpful tool for unity and for discipline.

52:43

As Baptists, we don't have a hierarchical structure where one church can tell another church what to do.

52:48

But when you're using a confession of faith, you can be removed from that association of churches because you are no longer teaching in accordance with it.

52:59

Also, I will confess here that I am, Chris already knows this,

53:06

I am ordained Baptist. And I started out, my first assistant pastor and senior pastor were

53:13

Baptist churches, but they were the fundamental Baptists, independent Baptists. And to tell you the truth, even as a

53:21

Baptist pastor, I had great difficulty defining what

53:26

I meant by Baptist. And I remember, of course, I was a lot younger and I didn't know a lot then, but I was seeking for some kind of a unity.

53:36

What makes me a Baptist? Why am I different from the others? And I didn't learn about the Baptist confession until after I was a

53:42

Presbyterian and I was dealing with Baptists concerning the doctrines of grace. And I bought the 1689

53:49

Confession to show them, hey, look, your history is the same as mine. But when I saw that, it's like this was what

53:55

I was looking for back then and couldn't find. Right, right, exactly. Yeah, most Baptists have a hard time.

54:01

I think most Christians have a hard time being able to explain denominational differences or ecclesiological distinctives, because those things just generally aren't taught in church.

54:14

They're just kind of assumed, right? And now what I find, though, is that in the Reformed churches, when you guys are doing an infant baptism, you're expounding and explaining and preaching the gospel in the midst of it.

54:28

Not just throwing water on a baby. When we practice baptism, we do the same thing. When we both do the Lord's Supper, we do it every week, and every week it's a fresh explanation of the gospel and the cross every time.

54:43

And so in the Reformed churches, we tend to do a little bit better at that, I think, than in some of the other churches that aren't as confessional.

54:50

But yeah, it's easy to confuse. But by the way, we also do the same thing when we are doing adult baptisms.

54:56

Of course. I just wanted to throw that in for Chris's sake. And let me repeat our email address.

55:05

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

55:11

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, what is the difference between a full subscriptionist and someone who is not in full subscription with a confession and yet has some kind of an adherence to it?

55:27

Well, and, you know, Barth can speak to this as well, probably with greater depth.

55:33

But there are two senses in which people generally subscribe to a confession. They subscribe to a confession because it is biblical, right?

55:43

So they, all of it is well done. They have no scruples, no questions.

55:49

It's solid. And then there are others who subscribe in as far as it is biblical. And so they would say,

55:56

I'm a full subscriber, but there may be some differences. And regardless, you know, both in among Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists, you can subscribe or affirm a confession of faith.

56:09

And if you differ in a particular area than the confession, you generally have to write and defend that idea for the leadership.

56:20

And the most common one I believe today is on the

56:25

Lord's Day or on the Sabbath. I know that that's common in the PCA. That's one of the common exceptions that are made.

56:34

And it happens as well among the Reformed Baptists. And so if they can articulate that and explain like, well, here, listen, it's a different take.

56:41

My basic understanding is this, and this is what it is. They generally. Right.

56:48

Sorry about that. It was a weird sound. Would you put your banjo down, please? I don't even know what that was.

56:54

But anyway, I'm sorry, did you complete your thought that was sorry that you got interrupted by that sound effect there?

57:01

I was doing good until you picked up your banjo. They have that effect on people.

57:07

Yes. I do like some Americana. So like, I'm pro banjo. Yeah. Well, you know, that was one of the things, too, that I've noticed in the

57:17

PCA was that, of course, you know, to be to hold office in our church, which

57:22

I am a deacon in the church I presently attend. And, you know, we had to go through and explain where we agreed.

57:28

And they did want to know where we didn't agree. And but I think really, when

57:35

I think back, I only had one area of disagreement with the Westminster. And of course, I didn't realize that the

57:40

North American one that we use here actually took that out. And that was because of the eschatological differences with the pope being the

57:48

Antichrist. You know, I don't even have a problem with that. So you you would use the older version of the 1689 that includes the pope being the

57:57

Antichrist? Yeah. No, no, I'm not complaining. I may have my disagreements with you.

58:02

But in fact, we just had David Silversides in my program.

58:08

I don't know if you're familiar with him. But he believes that the papal office is the

58:15

Antichrist, not just not a specific pope or future pope, but the papal office.

58:21

And he has a booklet on that that I in fact, I'll send it to you.

58:27

It's called a reformed and biblical view of the Antichrist. But now that the whole, you know, for your listener there that the whole idea and my thoughts disappearing rapidly to now.

58:38

So but yeah, it's usually small things like that, where there's there's differences of agreement.

58:44

But I, I find out more and more all the time that the more I learn about my own confession, the more

58:50

I'm in agreement with it, the more I like it. Right, right. Definitely. Definitely.

58:55

We're going to go to our another break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is,

59:01

I was actually going to say 1689. Can you believe that? Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

59:10

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please include your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

59:16

USA. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Joe Thorne and our discussion of confessions and creeds guardrails against heresy.

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01:04:07

We are back on the air with our guest today, Pastor Joe Thorne, and we are discussing confessions and creeds, guardrails against heresy, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:04:23

By the way, have you ever heard, Joe, of an

01:04:32

Orthodox catechism, which is the particular Baptist version of the Heidelberg Catechism by Hercules Collins?

01:04:40

Yes. And what do you think of that? I've heard of it, I've seen it, but I've never really used it.

01:04:46

I'm very familiar with the Heidelberg, but no, I haven't really used that. Okay, well,

01:04:53

I'm just going to let our listeners know that they can get that from another one of our sponsors, Solid Ground Christian Books, another faithful sponsor of our program, and if you go to solid -ground -books .com,

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solid -ground -books .com, you can order that book as well as many other books that are faithful to our

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01:05:40

And I realize that, man, oh man, I just took a big risk asking you about that without knowing what your answer would be, because you could have said, man, it's a horrible book, but I'm glad that you at least weren't familiar enough to make a negative opinion, to give a negative opinion on it.

01:05:59

As long as you're not asking me about Rob Bell or some of those guys, I'm not going to have a whole lot negative.

01:06:09

And the 1689 London Baptist Confession, just because a lot of people may be totally ignorant of who has used this confession from history, they still may be listening to us and thinking, what on earth are they talking about?

01:06:28

I've never heard of this document. They may think that we are from some weird fringe group or cultic group that is some tiny speck on the theological spectrum that has no historical significance, but there have been people, great men throughout history, who have adhered to this confession, including one of the most beloved figures of all of Christendom, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the

01:06:55

Prince of Preachers, the 19th century preacher in England who seems to be beloved by people crossing the theological spectrum.

01:07:06

Exactly, yes. Because it is an adaptation of the

01:07:13

Westminster and the Savoy, once people even just know that, when they're not familiar with the 1689, they seem to breathe a little bit.

01:07:54

I've even met Seventh -day Adventists who love reading Charles Spurgeon. I've met all kinds of people who love him.

01:08:02

I don't know how people who are militant anti -Calvinists could read

01:08:08

Spurgeon and claim to love him when he was clearly a bulwark defending the doctrines of the grace.

01:08:20

That's for sure. Calvinistic, yeah. But I think people have such a connection to Spurgeon.

01:08:29

They read his sermons, which by the way, I don't even listen to podcast sermons, hardly ever, but I read

01:08:35

Spurgeon all the time, and I read the Puritan sermons all the time. But I think people, they read his sermons, or they'll read something that he's written, and it is scripture connected to truth, connected to emotion, connected to the soul, which is the strength of the

01:08:52

Puritan. I think Spurgeon, a lover of the Puritan, reflects that. And people are hungry for that.

01:08:59

It seems to me that most churches today, most preaching today, if it's biblical, it functions more like a commentary, which is not what preaching is supposed to be.

01:09:09

Or if it is aiming at the soul, if it's aiming at the heart, it's less biblical, it's less theological, and so it's missing the power.

01:09:21

The Puritans and Spurgeon, they were able to hit that balance really, really well. They couldn't talk about justification without giving you 15 uses for the doctrine in your life.

01:09:31

And so I think that's why people love Spurgeon so much. They connect on one of those levels. And by the way,

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I have a surprise for our listeners. If you are interested in purchasing the 1689

01:09:42

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01:10:27

I'm sorry, Joe, what were you saying? Yeah, I was talking over you. Sorry about that. Is that the hardcover leather -bound version with the catechism in the back?

01:10:35

You know, I don't know, but you can call yourself and ask them. Just tell your people.

01:10:42

That's what I have. I mean, I have a couple versions, but that's what I have. I love that thing. It sits on my desk.

01:10:47

I use it all the time. I'm currently teaching the elders and walking them through that devotionally as we have our elders meeting.

01:10:56

That's a great version. You know, Jim, people who aren't familiar with confessional churches could still possibly have an idea as they're listening here.

01:11:08

Well, you're talking about these confessions, and you're saying they're not on the order of scripture. Isn't that the works of men?

01:11:18

They want the word of God, but not the works of men. I've heard this argument a number of times. Could you address that?

01:11:25

Because there's this kind of thinking like, you know, any Joe Schmoe can come up with an idea and write a confession, but I don't think they understand the care taken in formulating these confessions.

01:11:36

Of course, not any Joe Schmoe could write one that stands the test of time. Exactly. They're hoping it will, but it never does.

01:11:44

I think the first line of response, which is, well, any dork can come up with a theology and articulate it, but that doesn't make it a confession that's worth using, and what has been proved here is that this thing has been in play for centuries.

01:12:04

This has been broadly adopted by many, many people, and again, it's built upon the

01:12:10

Westminster and the Savoy. So, number one, sure, anybody can write stuff down. That doesn't make it worthwhile.

01:12:18

Secondly, sure, it's fair to say that this is the teaching of men, as long as you're saying that every sermon your pastor preaches is the teaching of men.

01:12:27

If you mean that these are the words of men, then fine, I'm okay with that, but it is no different than a sermon.

01:12:35

It is no different than a book. When John Piper wrote Desiring God, he used this word hedonist,

01:12:43

Christian hedonist, which made me want to throw the book when I picked it up for the first time. I like what he's saying.

01:12:58

It's good stuff. And so, yeah, teachers articulate and expound and explain and unpack the truths of Scripture.

01:13:07

That's what we're supposed to do as teachers, and so these confessions clearly articulate and explain the doctrines that are taught in Scripture.

01:13:14

So, it's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. That's what we're supposed to do. God's called us to do that as pastors and teachers. Now, the confession, just for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with either the

01:13:26

London Baptist or the Westminster Confession, they may be intimidated by even the sound of it.

01:13:33

These are really small documents. These are documents that could be read through at a very brief period of time.

01:13:42

They are not intimidating or lengthy tomes by any stretch of the imagination.

01:13:49

So, not only is it something that the average person could read through and study often from cover to cover, it is also brief enough where there is room for congregations and even individuals to have varying views on non -essential matters, correct?

01:14:12

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. For example, in 1689, Chapter 4 talks about creation, and it mentions that God created the world in six days, something like that.

01:14:31

I don't have it teaching 24 -hour periods of time, literal six -day creationism.

01:14:38

And other people would say, well, it doesn't really push the point. It's using the language of Scripture to say that God created the earth in six days, which we all would affirm is what

01:14:47

Scripture says, but it's not necessarily pushing this issue of 20. It could be longer periods of time or whatever.

01:14:56

And so, there is room for differences of understanding where it doesn't get really specific and drill it down.

01:15:05

And even then, when it does, in a church, like in your average, well, I don't know about your average

01:15:10

Reformed Baptist church. Some of them are pretty uptight. But at Redeemer, for example, our church is built upon the abstract of principles.

01:15:22

That's our church's confession of faith. And the elders are working through this in 1689. I'm taking them through that with the goal of the elders adopting that as a confession the elders adhere to and teach in accordance with.

01:15:34

So, we have the abstract of principles, the Calvinistic statement of faith, and our people who are members do not have to agree with everything written in the confession.

01:15:46

They have to be approved of by the elders after an interview and after classes and all this stuff.

01:15:52

And so, we have people in our church who are members who are not Reformed, but they're not combative.

01:15:59

They're submissive to the teaching of the church. They're not divisive. They don't gossip. We even have egalitarians in our church.

01:16:08

We have a couple of families who would say, well, I think women should be able to be pastors and elders, and I don't know why that's a problem.

01:16:15

And they would have their arguments, but they know that we are very clearly complementarian, and they're happy.

01:16:21

They're not frustrated. They're not angry. Nobody's upset. And maybe we have a unique church situation, but the point is that if a member disagrees with an aspect of our confessional identity, it doesn't mean that they're coming under discipline or are excommunicated or can't join if they're not a member yet.

01:16:39

It means that they have to understand that this is where the church stands. This is the church's official position, and you've got to be submissive to it.

01:16:46

Right. Yeah. Or discipline or perhaps even excommunication would come into play,

01:16:51

I'm assuming, as if they were seeking to undermine your teaching by whispering in the ears or even loudly shouting to other people that our leaders are wrong.

01:17:07

We must do whatever we can to change this view that they have and are really trying to undermine what you're teaching there.

01:17:16

That would be where you'd have to do something to silence them in some way. Right, right, because we're very up front.

01:17:24

So many of my friend's churches, good churches, they're like, well, we don't like to use the buzzwords of reform and Calvinism, and we don't like to use the words particular redemption or limited atonement, though they would agree with a lot of those things.

01:17:40

And for us, we're just way up front with that stuff. We like to put it out there, and we tell people we're

01:17:47

Southern Baptists right away. We don't hide that, even though it can be embarrassing to be a Southern Baptist. We'll throw it out there, because we want people to know who we are.

01:17:57

We don't want to lie. We don't want to be deceptive. So here's who we are, but what they find is like, wow, you know what?

01:18:03

These guys are reformed, but they're not angry about it. These guys are Calvinists. These guys are serious

01:18:09

Calvinists, but that's not all they talk about. They're really the focus is on the gospel itself, which is put on,

01:18:16

I think, the most beautiful display in the system of reformed theology. So I think if you're up front and gracious about it, it seems to create much less of a problem than if you're a bulldog about every single issue and constantly looking for a fight.

01:18:28

And I happen to know people, Baptists who adhere to the 1689 and Presbyterians who adhere to the

01:18:36

Westminster, who are both amillennial, historic premillennial, and postmillennial, and theonomic and non -theonomic.

01:18:48

So I'm assuming there is definitely an allowance for diversity when it comes to eschatology.

01:18:57

Yeah, yeah. I would just say that there's an allowance for their error, is how I look at it. Clearly, it ought to be an amillennial perspective that we're deriving from scripture.

01:19:11

Theonomic and go and sit at the kids' table. We've got to set up another program for this guy now.

01:19:19

But it really just discusses the eschatology that is essential. Right.

01:19:26

And about the visible return of Christ and so on, that that is an essential.

01:19:32

Because there are, as you know, the hyper -preterists who are denying a future return of Christ and are denying a bodily resurrection of the dead and so on.

01:19:46

Yes, yeah. I mean, the blessed hope, right? The return, the visible bodily return of Jesus Christ to just the living and the dead and to bring the kingdom to its culmination.

01:20:00

That's the end. And that's something that we all have to affirm as believers, I think.

01:20:06

But yeah, no, there's definitely room. And it's helpful for us, all the jokes that I make about amillennialism versus premillennialism and all of that.

01:20:16

I know that I could be wrong. I could be. Listen, I don't think there's any way

01:20:21

I'm wrong on my view of the sovereignty of God, because I think that's so crystal clear in Scripture. But I could be wrong on my view of the millennium.

01:20:28

I really could be. And so not only do we need to have allowance for other views on these secondary issues, but we also need to have some humility and admit, like, you know, it's definitely possible that I'm wrong.

01:20:41

And if I am, God, please show me. But I don't think I am. I don't think

01:20:47

I am on that one, but I could be. Now, your knowledge of what the

01:20:52

Confessions, both the 1689 and the Westminster, what they teach on the

01:20:59

Lord's Supper, is there room for differences of opinion? I know that neither would ever condone the idolatry of Rome's mass, but there are even differences, as you know, amongst

01:21:14

Reformed Baptists, for instance, on the nature of the

01:21:19

Supper in regard to whether it is strictly a memorial, like a Zwinglian view, or more of a means of grace understanding of the

01:21:28

Supper, a view that Christ's presence is more unique and more powerfully realized in the

01:21:40

Supper than in other areas of life. You know, you do have some differences of opinion, as you may know.

01:21:46

Does the Confession allow for those kind of differences when it comes to the Lord's Supper? Some, but in this, and I'm much more familiar with the 1689, because there are differences, there are things that are added, things that are taken out, so I'm not always sure unless I have them side by side.

01:22:04

But in the 1689, I think certain things are clear. One is that the

01:22:10

Lord's Supper is an ordinance for the Church, and that that's where it's supposed to happen. You know,

01:22:16

I have friends that would allow communion to happen at a small group, or they could take it home to their wife who is sick, and Redeemer would not do that, nor allow it, and I don't think the

01:22:28

Confession leaves room for that. In terms of whether or not it... I don't think it leaves room for a purely memorial position, but when you're talking about, you know, the presence of Christ and how it all works, there's some room, but it certainly appears to be a means of grace.

01:22:46

I mean, it says in the section on the Lord's Supper that the Lord's Supper is, when you receive it by faith, it's a confirmation of our faith.

01:22:57

It is a spiritual nourishment to us. So there is definitely something spiritual.

01:23:03

It is clearly a means of grace, but there is some room for difference in both practice and in perspective.

01:23:14

And what do you think that really is superior to all other reasons why it is important for a

01:23:28

Church to have a good, solid, historic confession of faith? One reason above all the others.

01:23:41

And while you're thinking that, I'll give our email address out one more time.

01:23:46

It's chrislarzen at gmail .com. chrislarzen at gmail .com. I think

01:23:53

I would go back to something I said earlier, that a confession of faith is an unpacking of the truth of God that we might know

01:24:03

Him and His work more fully. And for every believer, right, salvation is the knowledge of God.

01:24:11

That's what it is, right? That's what eternal life is. Jesus says that this is eternal life, that they would know you,

01:24:17

Father, and the one that you have sent. So if eternal life is knowing God, and if we're made to ascribe worthiness to Him, if we're made to proclaim

01:24:24

His excellencies and to glorify Him by reflecting His majesty in His person, if all of that's true, then we need to be a people who have the most robust understanding, experientially, not just intellectually, of God, and a confession helps with that.

01:24:44

Very high degree. That would be my response. You know, while you were getting back, I was trying to say,

01:24:49

I was going to say before that Chris, he actually gave you five of the top things when he said, was it clarity, unity, purity, discipleship, and worship.

01:25:00

But when you think about it too, when you get a new convert, and you turn them on to this stuff, and they start reading the

01:25:07

Westminster Confession or the Baptist Confession of 1689, they are getting, in one reading, more theology than I got the first few years of my

01:25:18

Christianity, even going to Bible college. And you know, what faster way is there to ground somebody in the faith with the whole counsel of God than through a confession like we have?

01:25:30

Absolutely. And I love new converts because they're hungry, and they're just ready.

01:25:37

They're ready to go. I had a new guy, he was converted. We led him to the Lord, and he's reading the

01:25:43

Bible. And the first thing he says is, one of the first things he says is, I hate that election stuff that you talk about. I don't buy that.

01:25:50

And I was like, I'll just keep reading your Bible. I'll keep going. And then he came back a few weeks later, and he's like, man,

01:25:57

I can't stand it. I'm seeing this election all over, every page of the Bible. It's everywhere.

01:26:03

What do I do now? And I said, why don't you memorize the book of the Bible? Some Christians do that. And he said, really, they memorize the whole book?

01:26:09

And I said, sure. Now, I haven't done it. I didn't tell him that. I just said, yeah, you should memorize the book of the Bible. It'd be good for you.

01:26:15

So he was a garbage man. So he taped up the book of Galatians on his windshield, and he memorized the whole book of Galatians.

01:26:21

And that was 15 years ago. He still got it down. So you plug them into good theology, you give them

01:26:28

A .W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God, or you walk them through The True Bounds of Christian Freedom by Samuel Bolton.

01:26:34

You give them a taste, you give them a confession, and they just cease, and they flourish on it.

01:26:40

It's just fantastic. Yeah. You know, I think that a solid confession also is an index or a table of contents when you are looking for a new church.

01:26:55

If you have moved, and you're in a new area, or even before you move, you should be checking what church is going to be in that area that is biblically faithful.

01:27:06

And for you to have either a sit down or at least a phone conversation with one of the elders there, and go through the list on what does your church teach about the

01:27:22

Holy Scriptures? What does your church teach about the Holy Trinity? What does your church teach about God's decree of creation, of divine providence, the fall of man, of sin, and of the punishment thereof, of God's covenant, of Christ the mediator, of free will, of effectual calling, of justification, of adoption, of sanctification, of saving faith, of repentance unto life and salvation, of good works, the perseverance of the saints, the assurance of grace and salvation, of the law of God, of the gospel, and the extent of grace thereof, of Christian liberty and liberty of conscience, of religious worship, and the

01:28:04

Sabbath day, of lawful oaths and vows, of the civil magistrate, of marriage, of the church, of the communion of saints, of baptism in the

01:28:17

Lord's supper, of the state of man after death, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of the last judgment.

01:28:25

If you've got all of those questions answered, you're going to have a very, a lot deeper understanding of where that church is coming from in regard to important matters of faith than if you had not gone through that list.

01:28:41

And so obviously this is a good litmus test when finding a church, wouldn't you think,

01:28:47

Joe? Yes, and don't shrink back from asking these questions.

01:28:54

Even if you don't know the answers, you don't have to know the answers. But your pastor should know his position.

01:29:01

I can't tell you how many pastors, veteran pastors, young pastors that I've met in my denomination, who don't even have an opinion.

01:29:09

They don't have a conclusion drawn from their years in ministry, of their supposed years in reading the scripture, when it comes to the issue of election.

01:29:18

And they're like, well, I just, you know, I never really did figure that out. I would rather them, I would rather them be

01:29:23

Arminian and convinced. Because at least I know they're reading their Bible and they're trying to figure it out and they're doing their best.

01:29:29

The guys that are like, well, I just think it'll all pan out. I'm a pan -millennialist. No, I'm a millennial, you know, we pastors are tasked with the responsibility of leading the church and making disciples, and they should have a firm grasp on those basic essential truths that are communicated over and over again in the scripture.

01:29:55

Doesn't mean that they're perfect or they have it all right, but they should definitely have it. Yeah, obviously, and I wasn't intending to mean that if a church doesn't meet your satisfaction on every single one of those issues that you shouldn't go to it, but it gives you an idea of where they stand.

01:30:13

And some of those would be absolutely essential. In fact, perhaps when we come back from the break,

01:30:21

Joe, you could go through some of the things that you believe are issues that there's no wiggle room where they are absolutely core essential pillars of the faith that one could not object to if you were going to deem them as a biblically faithful church.

01:30:43

And we're going to our final break right now, and Joe will think about that when we're on our break.

01:30:49

If you'd like to join us on the air, we've only got about 28 minutes left or so, so please join us at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:30:58

If you have a question of your own, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

01:31:04

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence. If you live outside of the

01:31:09

USA, don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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01:33:52

Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

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Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

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It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

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01:34:51

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and 10 45 a .m. Make a note to contact them if you'd like to get directions and more details.

01:35:06

Their website is lindbrookbaptist .org, lindbrookbaptist .org

01:35:14

and their phone number is 516 -599 -9402. I hope

01:35:20

I didn't read that number wrong earlier because I don't have my glasses with me. I usually have them right by my computer in the studio and I can't find them right now but it is 516 -599 -9402 so I apologize if I read that phone number incorrectly before and the website is lindbrookbaptist .org,

01:35:40

lindbrookbaptist .org. They are having a free hot buffet breakfast as well from 9 15 to 10 30 a .m.

01:35:48

on Resurrection Sunday, otherwise known as Easter Sunday. That's March 27th, 8 30 a .m.

01:35:54

and 10 45 a .m. and we thank you so much everyone at Lindbrook Baptist for helping keep

01:36:01

Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio on the air and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:36:09

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We have a couple of listeners but waiting for their questions to be asked and answered but I figured

01:36:16

I'd like you to first, Joe, go through some of the essentials listed in the confession where there is no, in your opinion, there is no wiggle room.

01:36:26

They are essentials of the faith. Okay, now when you first asked me, you were saying essential for a healthy church.

01:36:37

Am I talking like this is what I would expect from a local church to be healthy or are we narrowing this down and saying this is what's absolutely essential for a person to simply know the

01:36:48

Lord? I'm saying the latter and of course after you're finished with the latter you can include the explanation, a broader explanation of the first.

01:36:59

Yeah, I think that at a minimum as you're looking at the 1689 for salvation it would be the

01:37:08

Holy Scriptures, chapter 1, the Trinity, chapter 2, it would be

01:37:14

Christ Mediator, chapter 8, chapter 11 on justification, 14 and 15, faith and repentance, and the return of Jesus Christ.

01:37:28

Obviously in chapter 20 the gospel and the extent thereof. So I basically, you know, Scripture, Trinity, work of Christ on the cross, faith, repentance, and the return of Jesus.

01:37:40

Those would be the essentials that have got to be in play. And if you wanted to expand that to a broader list that would be for a healthy church that would not necessarily, you know, only include the absolute essentials but something that...

01:38:00

I think these are essentials for a church to be healthy doctrinally, right? So I'll just say 10 of the

01:38:08

Holy Scriptures. So the Bible, the Trinity, the atoning work of Christ, repentance and faith, sanctification, good work, the law, and what to do with the law.

01:38:18

Good works and the law is just absolutely being messed up, even among those who would call themselves reformed.

01:38:25

The local church, the sacraments, and the return of Jesus. So I would say those. Great. And I'm going to take a listener question.

01:38:38

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania that asks the question, should

01:38:48

I attend a church that says that they believe that the 1689 and Westminster Confession are false documents?

01:39:00

They not only are non -confessional, but they are opposed to these confessions and yet they seem to be

01:39:06

Bible -believing and born -again. Well, I bet there's...

01:39:11

I would say I'm sure they're born -again, I'm sure they're Bible -believing, but, you know,

01:39:18

Bible -believing doesn't mean Bible -accurate. Right. Yeah. Again, I'm not hostile towards my non -reformed friends and churches.

01:39:29

In fact, there is a charismatic church, Caps Lock Charismatic Church in town, and I love those pastors.

01:39:37

They love Jesus, they love the gospel, they preach the gospel, and I'm friends with those guys. But if this brother who wrote that question in finds himself in agreement with basic Reformed theology or Calvinism, he's going to find himself frustrated in time, because as this church is preaching through books of the

01:39:58

Bible, which I assume they are if they're a Bible -believing church, if they're preaching the whole counsel of God, then they're going to be touching on all of these issues.

01:40:06

The decrees of God, the sovereignty of God, election, regeneration, faith and repentance, all of these things.

01:40:15

And you're going to get frustrated at some point. So I don't encourage people to leave their church just because their church is not

01:40:24

Reformed. I think there are a lot of other issues at play there that you have to think about. But to what degree are they hostile to Reformed theology?

01:40:34

And churches in general that are hostile, it gets a little dicier.

01:40:39

Hostile to Reformed theology would, for me, be a deal -breaker, because I know that as I'm trying to disciple my family, that they would be hearing one thing from me and something else from the pastor who has a position of authority.

01:40:55

And I would see as a great value to having a confession is that when you are seeking to have unity with another congregation that is outside of your immediate fellowship or outside of your denomination, it's a good way to, just as we were talking about before, about an individual looking for a church to join, a church looking for other churches to have fellowship with, even though they don't need to be in lockstep with one another, it's good to know ahead of time where they stand on these important things, isn't it?

01:41:32

For sure. And I'll tell you right now, I don't know what kind of churches are in Buzz's city, but I would go to Buzz's church before I bad

01:41:44

Baptist church. I would go to a strong Presbyterian church before I would go to a loose

01:41:53

Baptist or non -denominational church in a heartbeat. So even though we have significant differences on polity and the sacraments, at least on some of the particulars of the sacraments.

01:42:04

Well, since I'm in the same city as Buzz, you don't have to worry about that compromise. There is a good

01:42:10

Baptist church. But there are also a number of Baptists in our Presbyterian church.

01:42:15

That's right, there are. In fact, I don't think I would ever join a church that would have

01:42:21

Buzz as a member. But anyway, I just twisted a Groucho Marx joke where he said

01:42:27

I would never join a club that would have me as a member. But now

01:42:33

Buzz, I know that you have been through the spectrum of theology in your own pilgrimage.

01:42:39

When did you come yourself to realize the value of confessions? Oh, that's a tough one to say when.

01:42:48

Way back in my first pastorate, I remember our next door neighbor talking about Reformed Theology, and he was speaking of it very favorably.

01:42:56

And I thought, oh, maybe that's something someday I'll look into. But I had already preached a series against Calvinism.

01:43:04

And I'm amazed, by the way, I want to at least say this, that I was amazed now that I can look back and say, how did

01:43:10

I ever find such bad source materials? But anyway. Yeah, I don't know.

01:43:16

I don't even know if Joe knows your pilgrimage. No, I don't think any of it. Buzz started off when he was raised in a nominal

01:43:25

Episcopal family, and then became at some point in his life a Fundamentalist Baptist, went to Bob Jones University, became charismatic, became ordained.

01:43:36

No, you better just, I didn't become charismatic at Bob Jones University. Right, right. After he left

01:43:42

Bob Jones University. Yeah, I was ordained Baptist. And I was the assistant pastor of an independent

01:43:50

Baptist church. Then I pastored an independent Baptist church. And I started at that church, looking more into Reformed Theology.

01:43:59

But I also did a stint through the Pentecostal and charismatic thing. And I worked for Teen Challenge for a while, and all the while continuing to study.

01:44:06

And I sort of just grew into it. It's hard to say exactly when I jumped the fence. But as I read more and more, well,

01:44:12

I was reading more on eschatology. And a lot of the people that I really have valued their opinions on eschatology,

01:44:20

I found out were Reformed. So I thought, well, maybe I better start looking into this a little bit more. And then when I started buying the confession, it's like, wow, look at this stuff.

01:44:27

This is just tremendous. And then you went through the Finley, Ohio Church of God.

01:44:32

And then finally, the Presbyterian Church is where you are now. Yes, yes. I've been Presbyterian longer than anything now.

01:44:38

Okay. And let's see. We have a listener.

01:44:48

Let's see here. Harrison in Mechanicsburg, who wants to know, are there any congregational churches left that actually adhere to the

01:44:54

Savoy Declaration that you know of? Yeah, I know of a group. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but the

01:45:02

Four Cs group, which is, I think it's

01:45:07

Four Cs stand for, I think, conservative Christian Congregationalist Congress or something like that, or coalition.

01:45:17

I can't remember exactly what they all stand for. But there are a lot of these churches that left the apostate

01:45:23

United Church of Christ denomination and wanted to remain faithful to congregationalism.

01:45:30

But could not remain with the anti -biblical liberalism of that UCC denomination.

01:45:39

Are you familiar with that group? Only loosely, yeah. But I do know about them. You know anybody else that would adhere to the

01:45:46

Savoy? I honestly don't. And as you said, the 1689

01:45:52

Confession actually does incorporate some of that. Yeah, yeah.

01:45:58

In fact, I think the 1689 pulls a little bit more from the Savoy's wording. Yeah, the differences with the

01:46:06

Savoy and the Westminster largely are involving polity, right?

01:46:12

Church government. And what is it that you think actually gives you more joy as a

01:46:25

Christian? Because people look at these things as kill joys, as overly restrictive things that really put a damper on Christian freedom and liberty.

01:46:39

How are you finding joy as a confessional Christian? I was a non -Christian and anti -Christian for a long time.

01:46:54

But I've had my fill of liberty. I don't feel like I need to run around doing my own thing a whole lot.

01:47:01

I actually like the idea that there is a historic background here that Christians have been working through and laboring over and articulating and believing for a long time.

01:47:16

For me, I find that to be comforting. But I want to know

01:47:22

God. I mean, when I was converted, I didn't know the story of Cain and Abel. I'd been to church two times in my life by the time

01:47:28

I was converted. And I only heard the gospel for the first time when I was 17. I wasn't converted until after high school.

01:47:36

So I was hungry to know God's Word. I was hungry to know God. And so any good sermon, any good book, a good confession helps me to understand

01:47:48

God. And that's where freedom comes, right? Because I have freedom from my afflictions and from a world that is hostile to both

01:47:57

God and me as His child, because I know God and His plan. The freedom is not in being loose in doctrine.

01:48:05

Like, oh, sure, you can have a sense of freedom by not articulating and agreeing with certain things.

01:48:11

But I think there's a far greater freedom in life by knowing these truths and included in the scriptures.

01:48:19

That allows me to not worry about, and not to fret over, the attacks of the devil, the perversions of the world, and even my own frailty that I have in my own flesh.

01:48:33

Because I know that, for example, the one that God justifies, He will sanctify. And the one that He sanctifies,

01:48:39

He will glorify. I'm absolutely certain about this. And so there's my freedom. I'm free from the terror of life apart from God, and I'm freed from being tossed to and fro by not having good theology.

01:48:57

I'm freed from all of that, and I'm given a sense of permanence and grounding. I guess, in other words, I would rather be an oak rooted deep in the earth than a leaf blowing loose in the wind.

01:49:08

That's a great analogy. What about the danger that may be attached to confessionalism of sectarian pride, of building a higher wall between you and other groups professing to be

01:49:23

Christians? A higher wall then needs to be built. And where there is a club mentality, the like people who have a prideful proclivity in their life.

01:49:38

Well, I mean, all men do have that to one degree or another, but some have a certain peculiar sin of pride of intellect, a superiority complex over others.

01:49:52

And it's just amazing how we can list among our own numbers as reformed

01:49:59

Christians, people with that sinful bent when the doctrines of grace are clearly meant to humble men and make us realize that we are utterly helpless and hopeless and dependent fully upon a sovereign

01:50:15

God who is in control over all things in the entire universe.

01:50:21

But how do you recommend that someone be confessional and yet have victory over a prideful sectarian kind of an isolationist behavior?

01:50:39

Well, first of all, let the truth of God do its work in your heart. If you are reformed, then you should be deeply humble because you didn't figure that out.

01:50:50

You're not the smart guy in the room. God has revealed himself to you in his word, and he has graciously given you understanding through teachers, preachers, and by his spirit.

01:51:03

So you are wholly dependent on others for where you are, however advanced you think you may be in comparison to others theologically.

01:51:09

So be humble about that. Salvation is all of grace, so humility is key.

01:51:16

Secondly, I would say you need to be the kind of person who can learn from others outside of your tribe.

01:51:24

If you can't, I mean, and don't say, it's not about would you be able to say that you're willing to learn from others.

01:51:29

Can you learn from others? Could a non -reformed guy or could a megachurch pastor who is orthodox and gospel -centered still, can you learn from that person?

01:51:43

Or do you already draw a boundary line which says, well, God can't speak to that person and can't use that person in my life.

01:51:50

That's a pretty good sign that you are in a bad place, and I know I've been out there for a long, long time.

01:51:57

And I would also encourage other people listening who may not be reformed, there's probably two or three of them listening to your show.

01:52:06

Here's an example. I was talking with a famous pastor a couple of years ago. He's really well known, and he was just going on and on about how he can't stand the reformed people.

01:52:17

And he knows that I am one. I can't stand them. They're mean, they're ugly, they're argumentative, they're combative, and on and on they went with it.

01:52:24

And I said two things to him. I said, number one, some of that you get because of your own mouth.

01:52:31

You know, you're not warranted people pushing back. But on the other hand, you're not having a beef with reformed theology.

01:52:39

You're having a beef with jerks and big mouths. In other words, it's not

01:52:44

Calvinism that creates the big mouth. It's just that some big mouths have latched on to Calvinism. And so don't blame the system of theology for the errors and the character of some of the people that adhere to it.

01:52:58

As Calvinists, when we become combative or arrogant, and we get pushback from other people because of our attitude, we just chalk it up to persecution.

01:53:08

We're like, oh, I'm just being persecuted because I'm telling it like it is. I'm just being real. I'm just putting the truth out there and they hate me.

01:53:13

No, they hate you because you're a jerk. They don't hate you because of what you're saying. They hate you because of the way that you're saying it.

01:53:19

So I think there's a lot of room for us in the reformed camp to grow in graciousness, in kindness, in compassion, and in learning.

01:53:30

Now, thankfully, the guys that I hang out with and the guys that I'm friendly with, they are what we call happy Calvinists.

01:53:37

Yes, that's good. They hate to be about it. They just want to chill out and have a good time. They want to read the word and pray together and play cards.

01:53:44

That's all they want to do. Well, you also have to look at where are these walls? I mean, when people say you're building walls, well, technically you could say there's a wall between Chris and me because he's a

01:53:59

Baptist and I'm a Presbyterian. And I just recently had a conversation with somebody that simply was inquiring as to the differences.

01:54:08

So I brought up the issue of baptism, infant baptism, to show one of the differences. And the response was, well, that's a silly thing to divide over.

01:54:17

And I got to thinking, well, then which one of us is supposed to give up our view? Now, you're going to find this common.

01:54:22

I mean, Chris and I are good friends. We love to debate the things and talk about them, even where we disagree.

01:54:31

But that's not the same thing as a wall of division. We are viewing one another as brothers in Christ.

01:54:38

There is no wall of separation. However, I will say this. Now, you're going to find this a little bit comical.

01:54:44

I came into Reformed understanding when I was still in the Assemblies of God.

01:54:51

And I went to my pastor and asked him to baptize my babies. How'd that go over?

01:55:00

Well, now, here's the thing. If this is my conviction that I'm supposed to have all of my children baptized, and I go to a church that does not do that,

01:55:10

I have to change churches to follow my conscience. It had nothing to do with the division from my friends in the

01:55:17

Assemblies of God. It had to do with I had to go where I could practice what I believed.

01:55:22

Right. And the same on the reverse side. For a Baptist with tiny children who was being compelled by Pato Baptist leadership in a

01:55:31

Presbyterian church to baptize those babies and young children, he would have to leave.

01:55:38

Well, obviously, it depends from congregation to congregation. It's not building a wall of separation to do so.

01:55:43

Right. We are always going to, as brethren in Christ, have differences that each one has to be taken as an individual issue of division and has to be responded to with love, charity, and humility.

01:56:02

And they have different ways in which they affect our relationships. It may have to do with a person not being able to be an elder at a church.

01:56:12

Yes. Or teaching Sunday school or whatever the case is, or even a deacon. But at the same time, it doesn't mean that you love that person any less, respect them any less.

01:56:23

There are people that we have had preach from our pulpit in every Reformed Baptist church where I've been a member who could not be a member because they are

01:56:33

Presbyterian. We've had Presbyterian and some very well -known individuals in other

01:56:40

Pato Baptist denominations speak at our churches. Go ahead, Buzz. But also, since you already brought up the issue that there are jerks in every discipline, we have to consider a lot of the resistance to having confessional churches is rebellion, just like they said of Christ.

01:57:01

We will not have this man rule over us. It's kind of hard for a guy to be the head honcho over a bunch of people when they have confessional beliefs.

01:57:11

A lot of it, I believe, is the flesh. Absolutely.

01:57:16

And it goes both ways. It really does. Just back to that one idea of walls,

01:57:22

I think of it a lot more like fences in yards, right? Like the

01:57:28

Presbyterians and the Baptists or whatever, they're neighbors and we're friends. We have a fence with a gate. We go into each other's homes.

01:57:34

We hang each other over. So yeah, you've got your yard and I've got my yard and you've got your house and you've got your family and I've got my family.

01:57:41

We're friends, right? We're still in that same neighborhood. We're part of a community still.

01:57:48

And there's real value in that. And of course, there's nothing wrong with me being super excited when

01:57:53

I meet some Reformed Baptist guy, right? It's like when I see a guy with a beard and tattoos, I'm always like, look at that.

01:58:00

That's my guy right there. Because he looks like me. There's just something fun about that. And when I meet a guy that shares my convictions on the

01:58:08

Lord's Supper or on the sovereignty of God, it's high five time. It's smiles. It's great.

01:58:13

There's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean that I'm excluding anybody else. It just means that we have a tighter connection on some level.

01:58:19

And we are out of time. Joe, I know that your websites are RedeemerFellowship .org,

01:58:25

RedeemerFellowship .org, and also Jothorn .net, Jothorn without an e at the end, dot net.

01:58:33

And any way you'd like to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave the program?

01:58:41

Love your Savior more than your system of theology. But if you want to love your

01:58:46

Savior, you will deeply care about him. Yes. Amen.

01:58:52

To know him is to love him, to quote that golden oldie song, right? And if you want to know him, that means knowing about him, and knowing about him is understanding theology.

01:59:05

And I want to thank you so much for being a part of the program. And I hope that you come back very soon,

01:59:10

Joe. Hope to come back. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Buzz, for having me on. It's always a pleasure. And thank you,

01:59:16

Buzz, for serving as a co -host again. My pleasure. Hope everybody has a safe and blessed and God -glorifying weekend and Lord's Day.

01:59:23

And I hope you always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

01:59:30

God bless you all, and we look forward to hearing from you and your questions next week on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.