Biblical Answer to Wearing Masks or Not

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

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01:02

Welcome to the rap report with your host Andrew Rappaport where we provide biblical interpretation and application

01:08

This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community for more contents or to request a speaker for your church

01:15

Go to striving for eternity org Welcome back. And as promised we said we were going to readdress the issue of Whether to wear masks or not

01:26

Why are we readdressing this issue because we got a lot of feedback last time when we had dr Sylvester Owen and we talked about masks and People felt that we just didn't get time to giving the biblical perspective

01:39

How does the Bible have give us answers on things like this? And so we wanted to be able to do that for you

01:47

So this week bud and I are gathering together and we brought in a heavy hitter Okay, actually if you've seen him in person you realize he's actually not that heavy

01:56

I think he's lighter than both of us, but I I could be mistaken He's got a little bit more than skin and bones, but not much not much

02:04

But we welcome someone who is not new to podcasting and actually not new to this podcast

02:10

You may have heard him in the past when we talked about some history and that is Andrew Smith from the his story podcast

02:21

So welcome or it's actually today in his story, right? Today in church history

02:28

Yeah, bud. How are you? I'm good. Yeah Bud made me close the shades back there

02:35

Andrew Because I know you guys are down there in that sunny state and you don't know what snow is and he

02:43

With the windows open it looked like it was just a whiteout and he thought that I got tons of snow or something

02:48

What he doesn't know the difference Confess the problem was we had painted this week at the church and I left with this just throbbing migraine so that flash of brilliant snow

03:01

Set back there in your background was just really I'm just just too much.

03:07

You'd left because you had a migraine and it wasn't premier preaching I Actually did have

03:20

Andrew, I don't know if you've ever had that experience where people leave under conviction, but I Remember once I was preaching at a conference

03:29

Most of you didn't know who I was. There were only a handful of people knew me and And I'm preaching this passage

03:35

I was basically going through much of Genesis on this basically a life of Joseph Dealing with the topic of perseverance and I was just teaching on You know

03:44

Joseph's life and then you end up seeing throughout his life that he persevered and the perseverance

03:49

I think was because he didn't get bitter toward his brothers and his circumstances He I think he was a man of forgiveness and just as I'm preaching this

03:57

I mean like a third of the people there left and I think it's like the worst sermon

04:02

I've ever preached I'm thinking this is horrible. This is a pathetic like I knew because we were doing some open -air all week

04:08

So I thought my voice was raspy. I'm fearing like peel just tired They're just like they just want to leave and even a woman who worked for our ministry left and I'm like, oh man

04:19

This is so bad And then the table is mobbed afterwards and she asked me to come over and help and then we start getting to where we're cleaning

04:26

Up and and I'm like just beating on myself because it was such a bad message She's like Andrew. You have no idea what's going on.

04:31

Do you like everyone was leaving? Just yeah, there were people like calling people asking for forgiveness

04:38

There were people that were like repenting and I'm like, I've preached that message plenty of times never happened again

04:44

But the one time I'm like thinking a third literally it was a third of the people left and I'm like, this is so bad

04:50

It actually turned out that the the message was penetrating people were going in Addressing it

04:57

I guess That's tremendous. So that it'd be better than hearing I had a migraine

05:02

But it but Andrew it isn't reassuring that it wasn't your preaching that gave him a migraine his preaching

05:08

No, his preaching doesn't give me a migraine and I leave plenty convicted. Mine is a constant life of confession

05:18

You know what I learned a long time ago not to try to gauge the effectiveness of the sermon by the deportment of people actually had a wise minister tell me when

05:31

I was really young and beginning in the ministry that you never Preach as well as you think you do and you never preach as bad as you think you do

05:40

So I don't know how to take that but that's probably fairly accurate

05:45

You know it I don't want to get into trying to gauge what the Spirit of the Lord is doing But it was weird that but let's so quickly because he's one of the last ones to stay and I enjoy speaking in Yeah, I knew we were doing this yeah, so well

06:00

This is neat because you so bud is your buds pastor and and that even that turned around Actually, that was the became about because the three of us were together at g3

06:12

And we just went out for dinner, and I don't believe either of you knew each other before that dinner.

06:18

Is that correct? I'm gonna take the silence is yes, they're thinking Silence on a podcast is usually not good

06:24

In silence silence usually is agreement in business I'm trying to remember.

06:30

I honestly don't know yeah, I don't either Hey look let's get into our topic we

06:42

Andrew we wanted you on this is Become in even in many churches this idea of wearing masks or not has become a divisive issue

06:52

I've noticed. I don't know if you have it just seems ever since these lockdowns and kovat and all this stuff

06:57

Our whole culture has been like less gracious with one another

07:05

People seem like we're at work places I heard from a small business owner a friend of mine who he said just people at work

07:11

Just they have no tolerance for anyone anymore, and it just seems that our society has changed with everyone being alone

07:20

Being locked up And and it just seems that everything triggers people some parts of our culture were triggered at a drop of a dime before But it seems even more

07:28

I don't know how it is down in Florida But you go to a store here and you have people like do you have a mask on get your mask on mask cover your

07:34

Nose I actually had to get permission to not wear a mask on a flight. It's just it's crazy

07:40

People seem to be getting very divisive, and I'm hearing now from some pastors I talked to that one guy called me last week and asked what do we do about masks?

07:49

No in our church. We our church has a position. I mentioned this last time we were on with Anthony We don't wear masks

07:55

If people want to wear a mask they can we have sections where people want to sit separated from each other

08:01

They can the majority people sit in the center and then on the kind of the wings on each wing

08:06

We have some seats that are separated apart, and if you want to wear a mask we feel to wear masks

08:11

They sit in the center section fine, but if someone's wearing a mask we try to keep a distance We respect them for that, but we don't demand it.

08:19

We don't ask for everyone to wear one I don't know. How is it down there in Florida? Do you guys have issues with members wearing masks or not people get upset over it?

08:29

Yeah, we've not had any issues with this whatsoever our church has just in the providence of God actually grown numerically through all of this

08:39

We at the beginning we were meeting in a school We've been in a school for the last three years and when all the shutdowns occurred and everything went haywire

08:48

We just continued to meet Then the school called us and called me personally and said look with the school shutting down and everything

08:57

We can't allow your church to to meet anymore in the school. We said fine We had already had a facility that was going to be ours, but it was being preoccupied by another church

09:09

So we got on the phone and called this church and just developed a relationship with them And they accommodated us so that we could begin meeting in the afternoon

09:17

But it took about three weeks to make all of that happen. They had to make some arrangements we had to make some arrangements, so there were

09:24

I think three maybe four weeks that we did not meet and But then we just started meeting and we have not been overly restrictive of people

09:32

But we just said come and we want people to come and and if you feel like you need to keep your distance

09:38

Keep your distance if you don't want to shake hands, that's fine But we just really we don't really talk about it like we it's not that we're oblivious to it

09:47

But we don't tell people what to do and people haven't complained and people generally don't even ask they just come

09:54

I think and bud could probably help me on this But I think there's just a handful of people that had masks on this morning.

10:01

Like I could probably count on one hand Yeah, I think notice maybe three, but yeah

10:07

Andrew We've been yeah, I guess that is a problem for this episode, huh?

10:12

We got to go by last names The rapster we've pretty much in my view been taking the approach that grace in LA has

10:23

Expecting people to take personal responsibility to do what they think is prudent given their own particular health circumstances

10:30

They've accommodated distancing like you guys have done there I think they're also offering maybe hand sanitizer and that sort of thing if you come in So they're making accommodation for that There doesn't seem to be any real emphasis and as pastor

10:46

Andrew said we haven't had any I don't remember Discussing it with anyone except in my desire to discuss it here with both of you

10:56

Yeah, we have like hand sanitizer stations for people we don't want people to think that we're unclean and and I if I walk by one

11:05

I'll put hand sanitizer on and we have Just to keep people more cognizant.

11:11

It's almost flu season anyway So it's not a bad thing that to stay clean and we've had some people in our church who have not made it back yet you have some pretty significant underlying conditions and we're trying to minister to them from afar and We actually started to have an online stream of our service which we we had never done in the past and We started doing that and purchasing some more equipment to make it as qualitative as it could be and we have a guy who specifically

11:41

Works on that and that's his ministry and he's done great with it So we we're trying to reach out to people in our community who are afraid to go to church who will watch it on Facebook We still want the gospel going out and we want our own people who can't come because of extenuating

11:57

Circumstances to be able to hear the word and still be a part of our church but as far as having super strict restrictions or Talking about it every

12:07

Sunday or preaching on it every Sunday We just really we just haven't addressed it that way and our people have responded positively to that Let's deal with some of the biblical arguments

12:17

I think the argument that I have heard the most when it comes to wearing of masks is

12:24

To love your neighbor that somehow if you're not wearing a mask You are not loving your neighbor.

12:31

That is the argument. I hear the most so what that might be a good starting place for us if we are

12:38

Choosing not to wear a mask now there. Let's be clear There are some people that have medical conditions that wearing a mask is actually bad for their health

12:48

Okay, I'm in that category right when I'm breathing in the carbon dioxide It's not very long before I start getting very lightheaded and start having some other issues

12:57

There are people that it is not in their best interest It's not for their safety but an argument that I heard in a store where I wasn't wearing a mask and I tried to explain to a woman for health

13:09

Reasons and she literally said it's not for your health. It's for mine And I Was like well, okay, but you're wearing a mask for your health, right or is that for me?

13:23

Right. And so the argument people use is you're supposed to love your neighbor and part of loving your neighbor is to wear a mask

13:30

Do you think that is a good argument to use? when it comes to The that usage of the text of Scripture Yeah, obviously we should love our neighbor as ourselves because that's what the scripture teaches but I think when you begin to use this the mask as sort of this test case of Whether or not you love your neighbor and whether or not you're spiritually committed to the

13:55

Lord as if this is some Fulfilling of God's law by wearing a mask. I think not only do

14:01

I think it's dishonest I think there's a great degree of hypocrisy to that because the bottom line is

14:09

I'm part of other Organizations and things I'm not going to mention their their name but they have certain policies and procedures in place in terms of when you're supposed to wear a mask and when you're not supposed to wear a mask and quite frankly, it is the most hypocritical list of Processes and procedures they absolutely make no sense who determines

14:32

When it's okay not to wear a mask and that's still equivalent to loving your neighbor as yourself and When it's not okay to do that Scripture does not give details on this it gives a general principle where to love our neighbor as ourselves

14:48

But I think that whole Trajectory of saying you're not loving your neighbor if you're not wearing a mask or you're you have a bad

14:55

Christian testimony Or you're giving Christians a bad name I just I don't buy in into that at all because Undergirding that is the assumption that a mask

15:06

Actually works and is protecting you and there's plenty of medical and scientific

15:11

That scientific data people way smarter than me who haven't bought into that So why should

15:17

I buy into that and then as a minister make this blanket statement that you're not loving your neighbors yourself

15:23

If you don't wear a mask every opportunity you're given I just don't buy into it Yeah, and that's why in the last episode and I'll probably link that in the show notes.

15:32

We went in the scientific We we had dr. Svester on who wears a mask as a dentist and and he explained it's for blood splatter

15:40

It's not to keep them healthy. It's so that when you're working on someone's mouth That's not getting all that into your into your mouth but The I think that one of the things this is so used.

15:52

I think that this passage in Matthew 28 39 about loving your neighbor gets so abused that it could be used for so many things because they

16:03

I think the underlying argument of loving your neighbor the way so many are using it is

16:08

That you have to do whatever they want. How far does it go? If you're not if your neighbor is a serial murderer, do you let yourself be killed because that's loving your neighbor

16:17

I'm doing an extreme example But there when we look at this it doesn't mean you do for your neighbor anything they want

16:25

I think that you brought up the issue of These masks and this is really what convinced me was the master being used for a couple things

16:34

It became an issue politically where it was a way of virtual signaling that you don't like Trump That's when it started

16:41

It was like this big thing to show anyone who wore a mask was it was a Trump supporter

16:46

There was even a recently a joke that went that said you can it'll be the easiest way to do the polling data after the election because all you got to see who wears a mask and who doesn't those that wear a mask or Biden supporters and those that don't are

16:58

Trump supporters it's that's how they're trying to make it sound like this is a political thing and I think there are some people that have a genuine fear

17:10

But as Christians Andrew, what do we as Christians really have to fear? What is the worst -case scenario that we get kovat and then what we die?

17:20

What happens to the Christian after we die? Is that a bad thing? When we look at this what

17:26

I'm curious of Andrews The way people seem to be using this passage seems to be an abuse of the context of an abuse of how they're using it because I Think that they're using this argument to say we should be doing anything our neighbor wants if it's better for your neighbor

17:46

What is what in in Matthew 2239, what's the context there? What is the view?

17:52

What does it mean? When we say that we should be loving our neighbor as ourselves

17:59

Obviously, that's a summary of the wall and the wall is not subjective. The wall is very objective.

18:05

It's crystal clear It's black and white. I preached from Galatians chapter 3 this morning and it speaks about quoting the

18:13

Old Testament that We're to obey all the things written in the book of the law

18:19

So the law is black and white. It's as black and white as our Bibles and there are specific

18:26

Demands of God that flow from his holy character and so there is an objectivity to love that conforms to what the law says and That's another interesting point because these mask suggestions in some places at least here in Florida There are places where there's a demarcation between what is a law and what is not a law

18:47

It's a suggestion to ask so you can't a Christian couldn't say this is an issue of Romans 13 when the sign on the door says

18:54

We suggest you wear a mask or we would like you to wear a mask Okay There's things that I would like a lot of people to do and I don't wear a sign around my neck saying that so That tells me that if I don't want to do it

19:06

I don't have to do it but I think in Matthew 22 the summary of the law is love of God and love of neighbor and You can know that you're loving

19:14

God and you can know that you're loving your neighbor the objective measurement of that is found in the black and white laws of God and so it's easy

19:25

It's easy to see if you're doing that the problem with Christians today that are making this

19:30

Issue of loving your neighbors yourself by wearing a mask is that it's such an easy. It's it's such an easy thing to say

19:39

But how do you how can you objectively prove that someone is not loving their neighbors themselves if they choose not to wear a mask?

19:47

In a certain context you can't prove that Yeah, and I think because you hit the point of the context of that passage is a summarization of the law

19:58

Right really specifically the Ten Commandments the force four commandments are about loving

20:03

God and the the last six commandments are about loving Your neighbor and so he's saying this is it can all be summarized in these two now

20:10

Last week bud and I did a whole episode dealing with Joe Biden who's saying that's these two laws are the ones that govern his entire

20:17

Way of being in service. I don't know that we can look at his record and say that really follows

20:26

With loving God and loving his neighbor with some of the policies he supports they seem to go against it

20:32

But this passage seems to get abused because they don't see it as a summarization of the law.

20:37

They don't see this as a They're trying to use this as a command of its own to say you do everything your neighbor wants

20:45

Now you brought up the Romans 13 because that's actually the second most used argument is to obey authorities

20:53

Now in some states There have been the as we look at there's some states that mandate it and it is interesting because in Many of the states what

21:04

I'm seeing is they cannot mandate you wear a mask because of health reasons So they can't mandate it for the individual what they've been doing is mandating it for the businesses

21:14

And so the businesses are required to have everyone wear a mask But the people they can't require that of and so in some places down there in Florida where it's more suggestion

21:25

In other places, I think they're trying to mandate it, but they're doing it through businesses Is that really fitting under a

21:32

Romans 13 issue if it and it might be different if it actually was a law on the books but if it's a governor who just makes the decree you're gonna wear masks or States that businesses through the

21:46

Health Department the businesses to stay in business have to require masks Is is that really fitting under a

21:53

Romans 13 issue in your opinion? Yeah, I would say not This was the this was one of the things that when all of this first started you heard these appeals to Romans 13 so yeah,

22:06

I think most churches did the Obligatory thing and saying okay, we'll shut down until we see what is going on with this and then as more and more data comes in really from the testing

22:20

That affects the fatality rate the mortality you started seeing you know what?

22:25

This is really not the black death where it's we don't see millions of bodies stacked up in the street

22:31

Like we were originally warned about and then I think it's shifted into this love thy neighbor thing, but many churches and I know

22:42

Pastor you and I both know with several churches in the Jacksonville area I know other pastors from around the country that are in jurisdictions of a mayor who has mandated masks in public spaces including churches

22:57

So the question then becomes let's say in our circumstance the nearest big town is Jacksonville I don't know that the mayor of Tallahassee has actually done that So you've got two competing?

23:08

Authorities it's a recommendation So from a Romans 13 perspective as a citizen blessed to be in America We really have to question what that authority is because it's not a law and in our case in Jacksonville I've talked to police officers with Jacksonville Sheriff's Office and they have been explicitly told what if somebody if some store calls us because someone comes in and they won't wear a mask and Unless there's an issue of violence, we're not we're told specifically we're not going to respond to that So there's even no enforcement to these recommended mandates, but you do see a lot of churches

23:46

That are still following that because the mayor has said it we're going to in a

23:52

Romans 13 Spirit obey that we're going to submit to that magistrate which causes for the parishioners of Causes for the congregants a lot of questions.

24:02

Am I being faithful by Wearing a mask to church or I can't wear one the Rappaport said you've got people with medical conditions that can't so it's a huge mess really and the thing that concerns me is

24:14

How do you counsel somebody like that? What's it look like to be faithful you and I are black and white

24:20

Andrews black and white when it comes to truth and objective Principles from Scripture, but this surely seems like a gray area for a lot of Christians Yet, not just with Christians that this is so divisive

24:33

Literally as we're talking and as we're recording this I just got a text message from Justin Pearson some that follow on Paul Jack's live know who pastor

24:43

Justin is he had a death in his family and There they literally he's texting me just now about a fight that broke out in his family

24:53

Over masks and they started cursing out one another These these are unbelievers, but they're cursing out one another and refusing to show up to a funeral if Everybody doesn't wear a mask and it is interesting because he was saying that it ended up getting into a fight over Trump So it's virtual signaling is there

25:12

But I I just I look at this and say okay. I don't I think it's an abuse of the passage

25:18

Love your neighbor. I don't think it really fits in under Romans 13, especially if it's not actually a law and When you look at it, this is a law in some states where what they've ended up doing is they've turned to saying we're gonna sue this law because it's a law that actually works against some people's health and So I as I look at this

25:42

The next argument that I've heard the most comes out of Romans 14 Okay, and that is that when we have someone who's weaker

25:50

This is the meat offered unto idols If you look at Romans 14 And this is where you have this issue of conscience if you have someone who is a weaker brother

25:59

You don't want them to stumble. So the issue being addressed there is you have meat that's offered unto idols

26:06

Do you see someone who is struggling with it with something that's against their conscience?

26:13

The way that this ends up becoming argued is the food is nothing There's nothing to it

26:19

But your brother thinks there's something to it because he came out of it that idol worship and for the sake of the weaker brother and really

26:25

Romans 14 Before I ask you this Andrew is the question of does this fit that our search from stance?

26:32

I do want to give a caveat here because there's something that is also people don't recognize in Romans 14

26:37

When you look at Romans 14, there's so many people that will say for the sake of the gospel You basically you got to be willing to do anything if you have a choice between offending a brother in Christ Or an unbeliever you offend the brother for the sake of sharing the gospel

26:51

That's exactly the opposite of what Romans 14 teaches That's that is

26:56

Romans 14. You have the choice between offending a brother in Christ or an unbeliever Who do you offend you offend the unbeliever and you care about the brother in Christ you worry about his conscience?

27:09

That's a side note. No extra charge for that. But Andrew does this really apply to Romans 14 and the argument of Caring for a weaker brother who is struggling with mask wearing does that fit does that text properly fit?

27:23

wearing masks This is gonna go back to an article that I wrote that I never published

27:30

That if you would have published it we could have been done right here We just would have read that and been yeah, we could have read that and been done with this.

27:37

Come on When is that gonna be written? It just needs to be published

27:45

Put to the public yet, but I do believe you are the editor at striving for eternity maybe you could get your hands on this from your pastor and we could stick it over on there if he's

27:56

Will link to it and that'll be it. I can't plagiarize. I have it I just can't do anything with it and that's okay.

28:03

We could create a user ID form and just put it up there So You Want to submit to your your leadership of Romans 13 in a more biblical way is it's really a

28:24

Hebrews more of the Hebrews passage But so what do you think? Does it is this really take caring for a weaker brother?

28:32

Yeah, I don't I just don't buy into that argument fundamentally speaking because we have a responsibility

28:39

As Christians to promote the truth. So if I know my brother is being led astray in a certain area

28:46

I think there's a responsibility that I have to address that and I think of Hebrews 1317 obey your leaders and submit to them for they keep watch over your souls as Those who will give an account let them do this with joy and not with grief for this would be unprofitable for you

29:05

So Christians are to obey their Christian leaders their elders

29:10

But it says they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account

29:18

What troubles me is that there are Christian leaders and Christian elders who are who are?

29:25

Preaching this idea that if you aren't wearing a mask, you're not loving your neighbor as yourself

29:31

If you're not if you're not wearing a mask, you're disrespecting that the weaker brother

29:37

But there is an account that elders and pastors are going to have to give to the

29:42

Lord For how they treat these issues in the context of their own church and so there might be an occasion where even a member of a congregation goes to an elder that they are to submit to they are to respect and they are to love

30:01

That they're going to give an account to the Lord for how they're dealing with this very subject of Wearing masks all the restrictions and what they are telling their parishioners they can do and they cannot do

30:17

I think this is a tremendously Serious thing. So when

30:22

I see other pastors write articles that Suggest this is an issue of making a weaker brother stumble or this is an issue of not loving your neighbor as yourself

30:33

Those people will stand before God Accountable for how they are using scripture to tell other

30:41

Christians how to live to me that to me That is the biggest issue there's going to be disagreement, but what

30:48

I hate to see is Pastors buying into pastors buying into this huge narrative that just assumes masks masks protect everything that assumes all of this and They're going to give an account for the ways that they handle this and the ways that they leave their congregation in terms of how to observe these things and I just I know that I have limited maybe

31:17

I have a limited circumstance because I'm in Florida I'm in a location where people aren't taking it as seriously as maybe other parts of the world

31:25

I'm a pastor so I'm with church people a lot of the time but I can just say this and let me just go back to the

31:32

Sports world because I spend a lot of time with unbelievers in the sports world where I coach

31:38

Kids when when it's okay, and I'm not speaking about any one particular organization This would be true anywhere when it's okay, too

31:46

This must be a pretty smart virus You have to wear your mask to the sporting event onto the field onto the bench

31:53

But as soon as you make it to the bench You can take your mask off The virus is not going to attack you on the bench and on the playing field when you're breathing and sweating and there's blood everywhere

32:03

When you walk from your car to the bench, you have to wear your mask I just and then people don't follow it

32:10

The reason people don't follow it unbelievers included is because it's unreasonable and it's hypocritical on the face of it

32:16

And what's troubling to me is then you go to church on Sunday and you have a pastor that preaches about the fact you're not loving your neighbors yourself if you're not wearing a mask and you're making your weaker brother stumble and everyone in the church is

32:28

Wearing masks and just following this thing. That is very concerning to me because these elders these leaders

32:36

They will give an account are Christians to submit to them and their leadership Absolutely, but they will give an account for how they are handling this situation

32:45

I was gonna say that the point of Romans 14 We are to acknowledge that but the goal is not to help perpetuate their weakness

32:55

We we are to instill faith and not promote fear.

33:01

We need to promote fear of the Lord Certainly, so that's the flip side Pastor of what you're talking about is that we may nobly be motivated to obey our

33:12

Magistrate who has said you got to do this, but Rappaport I haven't run into the situation going into a store

33:20

I haven't worn a mask maybe three minutes all year and Stores have a little sign up saying we would like you to wear a mask

33:27

No one has approached me one person and and that was the funny circumstance not at all hostile so I don't encounter that where If somebody is gonna be bold and say

33:41

I don't love them because I'm not wearing a mask But churches are doing that Yeah and so it is instead

33:47

I know a couple of people right now that this has scared them because now their church is

33:52

Requiring this and I'm like no to live is Christ to die is gain We don't have that fear, but it but it does give that appearance

33:59

So if your virtue signaling love of neighbor, you may also be virtue signaling fear of death

34:06

And this is what I've been hearing from both of you. And I think this is the underlying issue with masks Andrew you're talking about the fact that it's perpetuating a lie, but you're talking about that is perpetuating fear

34:18

Are these things that Christians should be perpetuating? This is not the

34:24

Christian character Christians are not to be characterized by living in fear and we shouldn't be lying or pepper to perpetrating lies

34:32

And so I think that as we look at this is the underlying issue We end up getting to and when

34:39

I look at the masks the and just it's crazy That's so divisive, but I think it's because of the fear that so many have been living under for these past several months

34:50

There they've been alone They've been separated from people no fellowship and and now they're getting together and people are afraid in some areas to to get together

35:01

They wouldn't do this for the flu they wouldn't do this for anything else we now know we saw what the president three days of medication done not with everybody, but there are cures for there are things you could take and Those that are in a worse condition

35:16

There's people who for health reasons before any of this didn't go certain places and that's their own choice now it's it's interesting when you said

35:24

Andrew about the lie because and the intelligence of this virus because I Thought it was interesting

35:30

I got on I had to get on to a flight and They required me not to wear the mask that I had because it was vented in other words

35:37

It had a filter on there that gave me fresh air But they're like yes, but it doesn't protect the others on the plane like okay

35:45

But is am I wearing a mask to protect myself? No, the actual argument they're saying is you're wearing a mask to protect everyone else

35:53

So wear a mask that doesn't protect you because somehow that's gonna protect everyone else

35:58

But guess what? They're wearing a mask. That's not protecting them the mask.

36:03

I'm wearing is not protecting me It's not really protecting when they sneeze or something else

36:08

It's it doesn't really protect as much as they think it's not a cure And the fear they have is becoming irrational

36:17

And and so in my view as Christians should we be standing up and supporting irrational thinking?

36:24

But you mentioned this the fact that When we look at Romans 14

36:29

It's not that we leave that person in the state of sitting against their conscience with this issue of meat

36:35

No, we instruct them that meat is nothing but if until they get to Understanding that we we will treat them like okay.

36:44

I don't want you to sit against your conscience for your sake I'll do it, but it comes with instruction. I Would see the same thing here we instruct and that's why we're doing these the two episodes we did on this is to instruct

36:54

Christians and Give them both the scientific argument and now the biblical arguments why it's the case

37:01

But one of the things you sent me bud and Andrew I'd like to address this with you if you haven't seen this

37:07

But bud said oh, yeah I'm sure this is gonna be good, and I just I might forget what

37:13

I want to say By way of maybe analogy to me the issue is what

37:20

Christians think I can control to a degree What Christians think because I'm a pastor and they

37:25

I have a platform where at least my congregation? Hears me and listens to me as I speak forth truth and instruct as bud said

37:34

I'm instructing them in the truth I have less control in the unbelieving world, so let me give you an example

37:40

We visited West Virginia, which we do every year which is where I'm from we always Ends the trip with a

37:46

West Virginia football game I have some dear cousins that were able to get tickets to a

37:51

West Virginia game that hardly anyone could get tickets to so it Was a privilege to be there hardly any fans there was

37:57

I was one of just very few fans that was able to go and They wanted you to wear a mask during the whole game, and I basically didn't do that I had one of those things that you wear around your neck

38:09

But as I was leaving the facility one of the masked police That's what I call them as I was leaving

38:16

They said you need to put your mask on now as a matter of principle I could have stood there as with my sons watching and really made a scene where I tried to convince this

38:27

Assumingly this is an unbeliever full of mostly unbelievers at this game Taking a stand and given all the reasons why

38:34

I didn't think it was necessary to put a mask on But probably much like you on the airplane. That's just gonna be a fruitless thing.

38:40

It's not wise. It's not my place I don't really care So I put the mask over my nose walked by her and then pulled it down and walked out of the stadium that was the end of it, but what

38:51

I will refuse to do is come to church every Sunday with a mask where I preach in a mask with other in the presence of other

39:00

Christians where I have influence and Seemingly perpetuate a lie because the mask has become symbolic for way more

39:08

Than just putting it over yourself to protect yourself or to protect others So I may put it on at a

39:14

West Virginia football game But as a matter of principle I will make sure that I shake the hands or at least give a fist bump of other

39:23

Christians on Sunday mornings and That I will not wear a mask So that's just me personally, but that's because to me the issue is an issue of I can't stand it

39:34

Christians that are living in deception Yeah, and leaders that are leading them that way so as a matter of principle where I can control it

39:42

I will not perpetuate the lie by wearing a mask Yeah, and I think that's the thing and it's even further for some and I want after this break

39:51

What I'd like to do is bud had sent an article to me and I don't know if you've seen it But this is from Christianity Today and it's titled

40:00

Christian colleges God wants you to wear a mask So I want to address the question is can we make the argument that God wants us to wear a mask right after this break?

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So check us out All right, so get the book what does it mean to me by Josiah Nichols that's available on Amazon It's also available at track planet good little book.

42:20

It's a small book and get through it quickly so Andrew this article that was put out

42:27

I just I The title of it alone makes it sound like God is

42:32

Demanding that people that go to Christian colleges that God wants them to wear a mask

42:38

Is that something that we could argue that God would has that demand on us? No, I just I think that's just absolutely ridiculous and that just goes back to what

42:50

I said Before it's troubling to me that it seems like Christians are willing to More than willing to lead the way in this.

43:01

I Expect that sort of thing from unbelievers to be deceived and to not have

43:07

Wisdom, but we've got the Proverbs of Scripture. We have the truth we know the truth incarnate

43:13

Jesus and yet it seems like the church is just Falling right along with the world in some places in other places

43:21

Leading the way and I have unbelieving friends who are very successful Businessmen or whatever and they've not bought into this for a

43:31

Christian president to do it It really makes me wonder What sort of things are at play here?

43:37

Are we afraid of our status and clout and society being taken away? Are we afraid of lawsuits if we don't do this?

43:44

What is the motivation here because a true Christian who is able to be discerning because of the indwelling of the

43:51

Holy Spirit Ought to be able to see ought to be able to see through the lies in the hypocrisy

43:56

Yeah, and and I think that what I've noticed I have noticed a trend that the pastors and church leaders who are more on the side of that we should all wear masks

44:09

Also happen to be pastors and leaders that seem to be more on the side of social justice as well

44:16

Which a lot of this virtual signaling is really about as well. I think that a lot of people early on Myself included

44:25

I was done with the lockdown when they had those protests going on and saying that had to continue because it was so important but everything else had to stop because People can die and that's when it was like look clearly there is something else going on here.

44:40

This is not about health care anymore When you see them sitting there and they'd be on the streets wearing no mask at all

44:48

Screaming and chanting and in close proximity with lots of people and then they're telling you if you sing at church you're gonna kill your neighbor, even though you're six feet apart and It it revealed the hypocrisy of it and I just was like at that point

45:03

I don't want to give in to the hypocrisy when we didn't know like bud was saying when we didn't know what was going on We didn't know the details.

45:09

We're told that it was much deadlier than it was There's caution and I think caution is good

45:16

But once we realize this is has nothing to do with that caution being needed anymore

45:22

I think it was time, you know to stand up and say no enough is enough. We need to get back to Doing what we need to do

45:29

Which is going to work going to church being able to live our lives and I think that a lot of the

45:35

Governments are just saying. Oh, we got a great way to keep everyone Controlled and I believe that this is just one area.

45:43

We got to stand up now I forget where was in France I think it was where they actually had a day that they promoted that Everyone was just gonna go out in the streets take their mask off throw it down and that was it they had a protest against the masks and That's almost what we need to stop nonsense it just it's mind -boggling

46:02

Andrew my main concern, you know, and I've shared but I've had these conversations because we're part of the same church.

46:09

We see each other Regularly and talk regularly, but I am very concerned about future generations of Christians I'm concerned about my own children my grandchildren

46:21

I'm concerned because I think religious liberty in our country is slipping away and we have

46:27

Christians Jonathan Lehman is one of those He came out with an article when all of this started and I had a response to it that I wrote and I mean

46:37

He's never gotten back with me on a personal level on it, which is okay But I think his article was very dangerous because basically what he was saying was this was not a time for Christians to fight

46:48

There's gonna come a day in which Christians need to stand up for their religious liberties But this is not the time to do it and I completely disagree

46:56

You see these restrictions these mandates by these liberal governors these liberal mayors in some cases these liberal people that want to become president of the

47:06

United States who will Absolutely use this to persecute the church.

47:11

There is no question about it So now the issue is do you love your neighbor as yourself? And what

47:16

I'm talking about is your own children and your grandchildren. Do you love them enough to take a stand?

47:23

Which it is not anything abnormal that Christian Americans Have always done the

47:30

Constitution allows us the free expression of our worship that is beginning to be restricted suddenly, but surely being restricted in some cases quite directly like in California with Governor Newsom and John MacArthur's Church, so we're just gonna sit back and say we'll fight when it gets real serious

47:48

No, this is the time to fight right now we have a very small window of time and that's why

47:55

I say that's my concern for if Convincing Christians. I don't think many

48:02

Christians understand This is the hour of war because if we love our neighbor as ourself meaning our children and our grandchildren

48:11

Christians need to stop Swallowing the narrative and they need to begin to speak for truth and that might mean

48:19

Taking your mask off and throwing it down. I don't know but it's certainly we can't continue this

48:26

In the direction that we're going without doing serious damage to future generations

48:31

Yeah I think it is love it loving your neighbor by allowing them to Assemble in church and here hearing

48:38

God's Word preached I think even more so to a historical I know you do a podcast on history, but that's church history.

48:45

Let me give some other history What we end up seeing is we look at the

48:51

Holocaust and what happened to the Jewish people there We know there were many people made the same exact argument now is not the time to fight

48:59

They made that argument when they were being taken out of their homes and being put into the ghettos

49:05

And the argument was hey, look, okay, we lost all our possessions, but we haven't lost our life Let's just get over there.

49:11

They're not gonna kill us there They're just we're gonna undergo a little bit but it's just a little bit of restriction for a period of time and meanwhile other people moved into their homes took over all their possessions and That was the time to fight because when it came time for them to be sent from the ghettos to the concentration camps

49:28

Then it was too late at that point they lost the fight and So I think that Andrew you're right

49:36

This is the time to fight because if we keep waiting on our Christian liberties We will lose them because the government's gonna see oh now is an opportunity

49:44

We now have that we control that with it's no longer something you have a right to discuss anymore

49:51

And that's the fear that I have that is what I can see with the coming persecution of Christians But I don't think we respond just because well, we know a persecution is gonna be coming

50:03

I think that I don't see any Biblical case that is made for wearing a mask and and I think as Andrew and bud you have made the argument

50:12

There's a biblical case we can make against wearing masks because it does perpetuate a lie

50:17

It does continue people living in fear and those are the reasons I stopped But when

50:23

I really realized what was was going on when I had enough of of this nonsense with the lockdowns and the masks

50:30

Was when I watched resurrection Sunday and all the churches that tried to meet and they just met in parking lots

50:36

We didn't even get out of their cars and someone would be up front preaching in it with amplification

50:42

And they were given tickets and they were given fines When the Jewish people in New York were trying to do for their holidays, they were being arrested

50:50

They're being fined. So you have that with the Christians you had that with the Jewish but then for Ramadan in New York City Which was arresting and ticketing the

51:00

Jewish people the Jewish population the Christian population Was going around city workers going around making halal food for Ramadan So that it was available in over 70 places and they were gonna increase even more

51:12

That was the mayor who said that no, I thought there's a separation of church and state But city workers are going to be preparing food for their holiday and even more they went into the mosques

51:24

To tape out where people can go to pray now You can't go to church. You can't go to synagogue, but you are allowed to go to the mosque

51:33

You saw the hypocrisy and once that hypocrisy is there you realize this has nothing to do

51:39

With a health issue anymore because if it was they would have told the mosques you can't meet either

51:45

So they are separating out certain groups They're choosing which businesses can can survive in which ones can't because they're not letting some open

51:53

They're deciding what kind of things you're allowed to buy in stores in some states and they're deciding what groups can have houses of worship open and which ones can't and who are allowed to assemble for the worship of God and who can't and so it's no longer an issue of This is obeying government or this is loving your neighbor

52:14

No This is giving in to the persecution of the world system that wants to shut down the church

52:20

And so I agree with you Andrew. This is the time to fight I think this is the time to stand up and say enough is enough.

52:27

I agree with you when I'm sitting with an unbeliever I'm not gonna sit there and they're gonna say well you to be in our store.

52:32

You have to wear a mask Okay, then I guess I won't be in your store or I'll put on a mask

52:38

I'm not gonna sit and fight with you because a lot of the stores and And that's the thing a lot of people don't realize these stores are fighting the stores have no choice the these stores are being mandated to have everyone wear a mask and the guy working it in your

52:53

Walmart or wherever They're not having any issue like some of them don't care to wear a mask.

52:59

I was talking to one guy in Home Depot He he thinks it's ridiculous He doesn't want to wear a mask, but he's required to ask everyone to put it on But some of them when

53:08

I walk in Home Depot and I they I say I have a health issue They're fine with it others. They want to make a big deal of it

53:14

So I think either way you do have that case and I just I think that we have to recognize that There's more to this than the arguments being made and I want to close out but Andrew I want to give you the last word anything that you you want to promote anything

53:29

You want to share even about your podcast, which you know, I haven't gotten a recent one episode

53:34

I think there's something wrong there. I think there's a lot of history that you haven't touched on So I I think it's a shorter podcast.

53:43

Come on. It doesn't take as long as this one with these closedowns shutdowns You've had nothing to do. You've just been sitting at home anyway, but no

53:49

I want to plug your podcast let folks know if they're in Florida and they want to find a good church plug your church so people know where to find you how to listen to your sermons

53:58

So they can maybe get the live feed and folks I do recommend his live feed I have heard his preaching outstanding

54:05

So if you want more preaching more sermons in your life, go check it out But anything you want to close with I think that was a great point about just we need to be people of peace

54:15

I don't think that we need to go start a war by every time we go to Walmart or we go to a restaurant that we're trying to get the establishment shut down and we get dragged out because we refuse to wear a mask and or whatever other thing that We're trying to do to cause problems

54:30

But I do think that as Christians we have a responsibility to speak the truth and whatever

54:35

Consequences flow from that flow from that and Paul says live at peace with all men so much as it's possible for you

54:41

But there are times in which it's not possible and we at those moments We need to be willing to to stand for truth

54:48

But as far as my podcast goes the reason that I've not had any shows is because all my podcasting equipment is broken

54:54

And I've not purchased anything new. I haven't recorded any episodes And you'd like you don't know my number all right, we'll talk later

55:07

Let folks know where they can find your podcast and your church Yeah, I pastor

55:14

Christ Reformed Community Church in st. Augustine, Florida And the website is Christ reformed cc .com

55:21

We just moved into a brand new facility and the Lord is really blessing us and spiritual growth and numerical growth

55:27

It's just a privilege to be able to preach God's Word every Lord's Day, and that's my full -time job

55:33

I'm just an amateur podcaster on the side not like Andrew and bud who are professionals and But my the name of my podcast is today in church his story

55:44

And you can find on an Apple iTunes you can also access it on pastor Andrew Smith Calm I have some articles and podcasts and that's where all my sermons are archived as well

55:55

Yeah, and and for folks who don't know Steve Lawson recommends your preaching so that's high marks there

56:02

So if you get Steve Lawson recommending you that counts for something so you guys want to go check that out

56:09

Andrew again It's always good Bud recommends, but actually goes there So if you go if you're in the area in Florida you get both bud and Andrew check it out

56:19

You can see them both. I was gonna say kill two birds with one stone, but something about that There's two of you.

56:26

Yeah, no that we shouldn't go that way, but I appreciate you coming on next week folks bud and I plan to be interviewing a

56:35

Ward winning podcaster, that's right Chris Honholz from voice of reason radio

56:41

He has done a book review on white fragility, and it's basically teaching people how to be woke

56:47

It is a bestseller unfortunately, and we're going to deal with that with him, so Want you to tune into that next week we look forward to coming back next time and bud you know what what's that?

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