Biblical Answer to Wearing Masks or Not

The Show’s Purpose and the Mask Debate

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Welcome to the rap report with your host Where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more contents or to request a speaker for your church Go to striving for eternity org.

Welcome back. And as promised we said we are going to readdress the issue of Whether to wear masks or not. Why are we readdressing this issue. Because we got a lot of feedback last time when we had dr. Svestro in and we talked about masks and.

People felt that we just didn't get time to giving the biblical perspective. How does the Bible have give us answers on things like this? And so we wanted to be able to do that for you. So this week bud and I are gathering together and we brought in a heavy hitter.

Okay, actually if you've seen him in person you realize he's actually not that heavy. I think he's lighter than both of us, but I could be mistaken. He's got a little bit more than skin and bones, but not much not much.

But we welcome someone who is not new to podcasting and actually not new to this podcast. You may have heard him in the past when we talked about some history and that is Andrew Smith from the his story podcast.

So welcome or it's actually today in his story, right? Yep today in church history. Yeah, bud. How are you? I'm good. Yeah. Bud made me close the shades back there Andrew. Because I know you guys are down there in that sunny state and you don't know what snow is and he.

With the windows open it looked like it was just a whiteout and he thought that I got tons of snow or something.

He doesn't know the difference I'll confess. The problem was we had painted this week at the church and I left with this throbbing migraine so that flash of brilliant snow set back there in your background was just really.

Just too much you'd left because you had a migraine and it wasn't premier preaching.

I Actually did have Andrew. I don't know if you've ever had that experience where people leave under conviction, but I Remember once I was preaching at a conference. Most of the field didn't know who I was.

There were only a handful of people that knew me and And I'm preaching this passage. I was basically going through much of Genesis on this basically the life of Joseph. Dealing with the topic of perseverance and I was just teaching on.

You know Joseph's life and then you end up seeing throughout his life that he persevered and the perseverance I think was because he didn't get bitter toward his brothers and his circumstances. He I think he was a man of forgiveness and just as I'm preaching this I mean like a third of the people there left anything.

It's like the worst sermon I've ever preached. I'm thinking this is horrible. This is a pathetic like I knew because we were doing some open-air all week. So I thought my voice was raspy. I'm fearing like people just tired.

They're just like they just want to leave and even a woman who worked for our ministry left and I'm like, oh man. This is so bad. And then the table is mobbed afterwards and she asked me to come over and help and then we start getting to where we're cleaning Up and and I'm like just beating on myself because it was such a bad message.

She's like Angie. You have no idea what's going on. Do you like? Yeah, everyone was leaving. Just yeah, there were people like calling people asking for forgiveness. There were people that were like repenting and I'm like, I've preached that message plenty of times never happened again.

But the one time I'm like thinking a third literally it was a third of the people left and I'm like, this is so bad. It actually turned out that the the message was penetrating people were going in addressing it I guess.

That's tremendous. So that it'd be better than hearing I had a migraine. But it but Andrew it isn't reassuring that it wasn't your preaching that gave him a migraine his preaching.

No, his preaching doesn't give me a migraine and I leave plenty convicted. Mine is a constant life of confession.

You know what I learned a long time ago not to try to gauge the effectiveness of the sermon by the deportment of people. Actually had a Wise minister tell me when I was really young and beginning in the ministry that you never Preach as well as you think you do and you never preach as bad as you think you do.

So, I don't know how to take that but that's probably fairly accurate. You know it I don't want to get into trying to gauge what the Spirit of the Lord is doing. But it was weird that. But let's so quickly because he's one of the last ones to stay and I enjoy speaking them.

Yeah, I knew we were doing this. Yeah, so well.

This is neat because you so bud is your buds pastor. And and that even that turned around actually, that was the Became about because the three of us were together at g3. And we just went out for dinner and I don't believe either of you knew each other before that dinner.

Is that correct? I'm gonna take the silence is yes, they're thinking. Silence on a podcast is usually not good.

In silence silence usually is agreement in business. I'm trying to remember. I honestly don't know. Yeah, I don't either.

Love Your Neighbor, Romans 13, and Romans 14

Hey, look, let's get into our topic. We Andrew we wanted you on this is Become in even in many churches this idea of wearing masks or not has become a divisive issue. I've noticed I don't know if you have it just seems ever since these lockdowns and kovat and all this stuff.

Our whole culture has been Like less gracious with one another. People seem like we're at workplaces. I heard from a small business owner a friend of mine who he said just people at work just. They have no tolerance for anyone anymore and it just seems that our society has changed with everyone being alone.

Being locked up and and it just seems that everything triggers people some parts of our culture were triggered at a drop of a dime. Before but it seems even more. I don't know how it is down in Florida.

But you go to a store here and you have people like you have a mask on get your mask on mask cover your nose. I actually had to get permission to not wear a mask on a flight. It's just it's crazy. People seem to be getting very divisive and I'm hearing now from some pastors.

I talked to that. One guy called me last week and asked what do we do about masks now in our church we our church has a position I mentioned this last time we were on with Anthony. We don't wear masks.

If people want to wear a mask they can we have sections where people want to sit separated from each other. They can the majority people sit in the center and then on the kind of the wings on each wing.

We have some seats that are separated apart and if you want to wear a mask, we feel to wear masks. They sit in the center section fine. But if someone's wearing a mask we try to keep a distance we respect them for that, but we don't demand it.

We don't ask for everyone to wear one. I don't know. How is it down there in Florida? Do you guys have issues with members wearing masks or not people get upset over it?

Yeah, we've not had any issues with this whatsoever our church has just in the providence of God actually grown. Numerically through all of this we at the beginning we were meeting in a school. We've been in a school for the last three years and When all the shutdowns occurred and everything went haywire.

We just continued to meet one. Then the school called us and called me personally and said look with the school shutting down and everything. We can't allow your church to meet anymore in the school. We said fine.

We had already had a facility that was going to be ours, but it was being preoccupied by another church. So we got on the phone and called this church and just developed a relationship with them. And they accommodated us so that we could begin meeting in the afternoon.

But it took about three weeks to make all of that happen. They had to make some arrangements we had to make some arrangements, so there were I think three maybe four weeks that we did not meet and. But then we just started meeting and we have not been overly restrictive of people.

But we just said come and we want people to come and and if you feel like you need to keep your distance. Keep your distance if you don't want to shake hands, that's fine. But we just really we don't really talk about it like we it's not that we're oblivious to it.

But we don't tell people what to do and people haven't complained and people generally don't even ask they just come. I think and bud could probably Help me on this. But I think there's just a handful of people that had masks on this morning like I could probably count on one hand.

Yeah, I think notice. Maybe three, but yeah. Andrew rapport.

We've been. Yeah, I guess that is a problem for this episode, huh? We got to go by last names.

The rapster we've pretty much in my view been taking the approach that grace in LA has. Expecting people to take personal responsibility to do what they think is prudent given their own particular health circumstances.

They've accommodated distancing like you guys have done there. I think. They're also offering maybe hand sanitizer and that sort of thing if you come in. So they're making accommodation for that. There doesn't seem to be any real emphasis and as pastor Andrew said we haven't had any.

I don't remember Discussing it with anyone. Except in my desire to discuss it here with both of you.

Yeah, we have like hand sanitizer stations for people we don't want people to think that we're unclean and and I if I walk by one I'll put hand sanitizer on and we have. Just to keep people more cognizant.

It's almost flu season anyway. So it's not a bad thing that to stay clean and we've had some people in our church. You have not made it back yet to have some pretty significant underlying conditions. We're trying to minister to them from afar and we actually started to have an online stream of our service, which we we had never done in the past and We started doing that and purchasing some more equipment to make it as qualitative as it could be and we have a guy who specifically Works on that and that's his ministry and he's done great with it.

So we we're trying to reach out to people in our community who are afraid to go to church. We still want the gospel going out and we want our own people who can't come because of extenuating circumstances to be able to hear the word and still be a part of our church, but as far as having super strict restrictions or Talking about it every Sunday or preaching on it every Sunday.

We just really we just haven't addressed it that way and our people have responded positively to that.

Let's deal with some of the biblical arguments. I think the argument that I have heard the most when it comes to wearing of masks is To love your neighbor that somehow if you're not wearing a mask You are not loving your neighbor.

That is the argument. I hear the most so what that might be a good starting place for us if we are Choosing not to wear a mask now there. Let's be clear. There are some people that have medical conditions that wearing a mask is actually bad for their health.

Okay, I'm in that category right when I'm breathing in the carbon dioxide. It's not very long before I start getting very lightheaded and start having some other issues. There are people that it is not in their best interest.

It's not for their safety but an argument that I heard in a store where I wasn't wearing a mask and I tried to explain to a woman for health Reasons and she literally said it's not for your health. It's for mine.

And I Was like well, okay, but you're wearing a mask for your health, right or is that for me? Right. And so the argument people use is you're supposed to love your neighbor and part of loving your neighbor is to wear a mask.

Do you think that is a good argument to use when it comes to That usage of the text of Scripture.

Yeah, obviously we should love our neighbor as ourselves because that's what the scripture teaches but I think when you begin to use this the mask as sort of this test case of Whether or not you love your neighbor and whether or not you're spiritually committed to the Lord as if this is some Fulfilling of God's law by wearing a mask.

I think not only do I think it's dishonest I think there's a great degree of hypocrisy to that because the bottom line is I'm part of other Organizations and things I'm not going to mention their their name but they have certain policies and procedures in place in terms of when you're supposed to wear a mask and when you're not supposed to wear a mask and quite frankly, it is the most hypocritical list of Processes and procedures they absolutely make no sense who determines When it's okay not to wear a mask and that's still equivalent to loving your neighbor as yourself and When it's not okay to do that.

Scripture does not give details on this it gives a general principle where to love our neighbor as ourselves. But I think that whole trajectory of saying you're not loving your neighbor if you're not wearing a mask or you're you have a bad Christian testimony or you're Giving Christians a bad name.

I just I don't buy into that at all Because undergirding that is the assumption that a mask Actually works and is protecting you and there's plenty of medical and scientific Scientific data people way smarter than me who haven't bought into that.

So why should I buy into that and then as a minister make this blanket statement that you're not loving your neighbors yourself If you don't wear a mask every opportunity you're given. I just don't buy into it.

Yeah, and that's why in the last episode and I'll probably link that in the show notes we went in the scientific we we had dr Sylvester on who wears a mask as a dentist and and he explained it's for blood splatter.

It's not to keep them healthy. It's so that when you're working on someone's mouth, that's not getting all that into your into your mouth but The I think that one of the things this is so used. I think that this passage in Matthew 28 3839 about loving your neighbor gets so abused that it could be used for so many things because they I think the underlying argument of loving your neighbor the way so many are using it is.

That you have to do whatever they want. How far does it go? If you're not if your neighbor is a serial murderer, do you let yourself be killed because that's loving your neighbor. I'm doing an extreme example.

But they're there when we look at this it doesn't mean you do for your neighbor anything they want. I think that you brought up the issue of These masks and this is really what convinced me is the master being used for a couple things.

It became an issue politically where it was a way of virtual signaling that you don't like Trump. That's when it started. It was like this big thing to show anyone who wore a mask was it was a Trump supporter?

There was even a recently a joke that went that said you can it'll be the easiest way to do the polling data after the election because all you gotta do is see who wears a mask and who doesn't those that wear a mask or Biden supporters and those that don't are Trump supporters it's that's how they're trying to make it sound like this is a political thing and I think there are some people that have a genuine fear.

But as Christians Andrew, what do we as Christians really have to fear? What is the worst case scenario that we get kovat and then what we die? What happens to the Christian after we die? Is that a bad thing?

When we look at this what I'm curious of Andrews the way people seem to be using this passage seems to be an abuse of the context an abuse of how they're using it because I Think that they're using this argument to say we should be doing anything our neighbor wants if it's better for your neighbor.

What is what in in Matthew 2239 what's the context there? What is the view? What does it mean? When we say that we should be loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Obviously, that's a summary of the wall and the wall is not subjective. The wall is very objective. It's crystal clear. It's black and white. I preached from Galatians chapter 3 this morning and it speaks about quoting the Old Testament that We're to obey all the things written in the book of the law.

So the law is black and white. It's as black and white as our Bibles and there are specific Demands of God that flow from his holy character and so there is an objectivity to love that conforms to what the law says and That's another interesting point because these mask Suggestions in some places at least here in Florida There are places where there's a demarcation between what is a law and what is not a law.

It's a suggestion to ask so you can't a Christian couldn't say this is an issue of Romans 13 when the sign on the door Says we suggest you wear a mask or we would like you to wear a mask. Okay. There's things that I would like a lot of people to do and I don't wear a sign around my neck saying that so That tells me that if I don't want to do it I don't have to do it but I think in Matthew 22 the summary of the law is love of God and love of neighbor and You can know that you're loving God and you can know that you're loving your neighbor the objective measurement of that is found in the black and white laws of God and so it's easy.

It's easy to see if you're doing that the problem with Christians today that are making this Issue of loving your neighbors yourself by wearing a mask is that it's such an easy. It's it's such an easy thing to say.

But how do you how can you objectively prove that someone is not loving their neighbors themselves if they choose not to wear a mask? In a certain context you can't prove that.

Yeah, and I think because you hit the point of the context of that passage is a summarization of the law. Right really specifically ten commandments the force four commandments are about loving God and the the last six commandments are about loving your neighbor.

And so he's saying this is it can all be summarized in these two now. Last week bud and I did a whole episode dealing with Joe Biden who's saying that's these two laws are the ones that govern his entire Way of being in service.

I don't know that we can look at his record and say that really follows With loving God and loving his neighbor with some of the policies he supports they seem to go against it. But this passage seems to get abused because they don't see it as a summarization of the law.

They don't see this as a. They're trying to use this as a command of its own to say you do everything your neighbor wants. Now you brought up the Romans 13 because that's actually the second most used argument is to obey authorities.

Now in some states There have been the as we look at there's some states that mandate it and it is interesting because in Many of the states what I'm seeing is they cannot mandate you wear a mask because of health reasons so they can't mandate it for the Individual what they've been doing is mandating it for the businesses and so the businesses are required to have everyone wear a mask, but the people they can't require that of and.

So in some places down there in Florida where it's more suggestion. In other places, I think they're trying to mandate it, but they're doing it through businesses. Is that really fitting under a Romans 13 issue if it and it might be different if it actually was a law on the books but if it's a governor who just makes the decree you're gonna wear masks or States that businesses through the Health Department.

The businesses to stay in business have to require masks. Is is that really fitting under a Romans 13 issue in your opinion? Yeah, I would say not.

This was the this was one of the things that when all of this first started you heard these appeals to Romans 13 so yeah, I think most churches did the obligatory Thing and saying okay, we'll shut down until we see what is going on with this.

And then as more and more data comes in really from the testing That affects the fatality rate the mortality you started seeing you know what? This is really not the black death where it's we don't see millions of bodies stacked up in the street.

Like we were originally warned about and then I think it's shifted into this love thy neighbor Thing but many churches and I know Pastor you and I both know with several churches in the Jacksonville area I know other pastors from around the country that are in jurisdictions of a mayor who has mandated masks in public spaces including churches.

So the question then becomes let's say in our circumstance the nearest big town is Jacksonville. I don't know that the mayor of Tallahassee has actually done that. So you've got two competing? Authorities it's a recommendation.

So from a Romans 13 perspective as a citizen blessed to be in America. We really have to question what that authority is because it's not a law and in our case in Jacksonville I've talked to police officers with Jacksonville Sheriff's Office and they have been explicitly told what if somebody if some store calls us because someone comes in and they won't wear a mask and Unless there's an issue of violence, we're not we're told specifically we're not going to respond to that.

So there's even no enforcement to these recommended mandates, but you do see a lot of churches That are still following that because the mayor has said it we're going to in a Romans 13 Spirit obey that we're gonna submit to that magistrate which causes for the parishioners of Causes for the congregants a lot of questions.

Am I being faithful by? Wearing a mask to church or I can't wear one the Rappaport said you've got people with medical conditions that can't so it's a huge mess really and the thing that concerns me is How do you counsel somebody like that?

What's it look like to be faithful you and I are black and white Andrews black and white when it comes to truth and objective Principles from Scripture, but this surely seems like a gray area for a lot of Christians.

Yet, not just with Christians. This is so divisive. Literally as we're talking and as we're recording this I just got a text message from Justin Pearson some that follow on Paul Jack's live know who pastor Justin is he had a death in his family and There they literally he's texting me just now about a fight that broke out in his family.

Over masks and they started cursing out one another these these are unbelievers, but they're cursing out one another and refusing to show up to a funeral if. Everybody doesn't wear a mask and it is interesting because he was saying that it ended up getting into a fight over Trump.

So it's virtual signaling is there. But I I just I look at this and say okay. I don't. I think it's an abuse of the passage. Love your neighbor. I don't think it really fits in under Romans 13, especially if it's not actually a law and.

When you look at it, this is a law in some states where what they've ended up doing is they've turned to saying we're gonna sue this law because it's a law that actually works against some people's health and.

So I as I look at this the next argument that I've heard the most comes out of Romans 14. Okay, and that is that when we have someone who's weaker. This is the meat offered unto idols. If you look at Romans 14.

And this is where you have this issue of conscience if you have someone who is a weaker brother. You don't want them to stumble. So the issue being addressed there is you have meat that's offered unto idols.

Do you see someone who is struggling with it with something that's against their conscience? The way that this ends up becoming argued is the food is nothing. There's nothing to it but your brother thinks there's something to it because he came out of it that idol worship and for the sake of the weaker brother and really Romans 14.

Before I ask you this Andrew is the question of does this fit that our search from stance? I do want to give a caveat here because there's something that is also people don't recognize in Romans 14. When you look at Romans 14, there's so many people that will say for the sake of the gospel.

You basically you got to be willing to do anything if you have a choice between offending a brother in Christ. Or an unbeliever you offend the brother for the sake of sharing the gospel. That's exactly the opposite of what Romans 14 teaches.

That's that is Romans 14. You have the choice between offending a brother in Christ or an unbeliever. Who do you offend. You offend the unbeliever and you care about the brother in Christ you worry about his conscience?

That's a side note. No extra charge for that. But Andrew does this really apply to Romans 14 and the argument of Caring for a weaker brother who is struggling with mask wearing. Does that fit. Does that text properly fit?

Wearing masks.

Christian Liberty, Weak Conscience, and Church Leadership

This is gonna go back to an article that I wrote that I never published.

That if you would have published it we could have been done right here. We just would have read that and been. Yeah, we could have read that and been done with this. Come on. When is that gonna be written?

It just needs to be published. Put to the public yet, but I do believe you are the editor at striving for eternity. Maybe you could get your hands on this from your pastor and we could stick it over on there if he's.

Will link to it and that'll be it. I can't plagiarize. I have it.

I just can't do anything with it and that's okay. We could create a user ID form and just put it up there. So You Want to submit to your your leadership of Romans 13 in a more biblical way is it's really a Hebrews more of the Hebrews passage.

But so what do you think? Does it is this really take caring for a weaker brother?

Yeah, I don't I just don't buy into that argument fundamentally speaking because we have a responsibility As Christians to promote the truth, so if I know my brother is being led astray in a certain area I think there's a responsibility that I have to address that and I think of Hebrews 13 17 obey your leaders and submit to them for they keep watch over your souls as Those who will give an account let them do this with joy and not with grief for this would be unprofitable for you.

So Christians are to obey their Christian leaders their elders. But it says they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. What troubles me is that there are Christian leaders and Christian elders who are who are?

Preaching this idea that if you aren't wearing a mask, you're not loving your neighbor as yourself. If you're not if you're not wearing a mask, you're disrespecting that the weaker brother. But there is an account that elders and pastors are going to have to give to the Lord.

For how they treat these issues in the context of their own church and so there might be an occasion where even a member of a Congregation goes to an elder that they are to submit to they are to respect and they are to love.

That they're going to give an account to the Lord for how they're dealing with this very subject of Wearing masks all the restrictions and what they are telling their parishioners they can do and they cannot do.

I think this is a tremendously Serious thing. So when I see other pastors write articles that Suggest this is an issue of making a weaker brother stumble or this is an issue of not loving your neighbor as yourself.

Those people will stand before God Accountable for how they are using scripture to tell other Christians how to live to me that to me. That is the biggest issue there's going to be disagreement, but what I hate to see is Pastors buying into pastors buying into this huge narrative that just assumes masks masks protect everything that assumes all of this and They're going to give an account for the ways that they handle this and the ways that they leave their congregation in terms of how to observe these things and I just I know that I have limited maybe I have a Limited circumstance because I'm in Florida I'm in a location where people aren't taking it as seriously as maybe other parts of the world.

I'm a pastor. So I'm with church people a lot of the time but I can just say this and let me just go back to the sports World because I spend a lot of time with unbelievers in the sports world where I coach Kids when when it's okay, and I'm not speaking about any one particular organization.

This would be true anywhere when it's okay to this must be a pretty smart virus. You have to wear your mask to the sporting event on to the field on to the bench. But as soon as you make it to the bench You can take your mask off.

The virus is not going to attack you on the bench and on the playing field when you're breathing and sweating and there's blood everywhere. When you walk from your car to the bench, you have to wear your mask.

I just and then people don't follow it. The reason people don't follow it unbelievers included is because it's unreasonable. And it's hypocritical on the face of it. And what's troubling to me is then you go to church on Sunday and you have a pastor that preaches about the fact.

You're not loving your neighbor as yourself if you're not wearing a mask and you're making your weaker brother stumble and everyone in the church is wearing masks and just Following this thing that is very concerning to me because these elders these leaders.

They will give an account our Christians to submit to them and their leadership. Absolutely, but they will give an account for how they are handling this situation. I was gonna say that the point of Romans 14.

We are to acknowledge that but the goal is not to help perpetuate their weakness. We we are to instill faith and not promote fear. We need to promote fear of the Lord. Certainly, so that's the flip side.

Pastor of what you're talking about is that we may nobly be motivated to obey our magistrate who has said you got to do this, but Rappaport I haven't run into the situation going into a store. I haven't worn a mask maybe three minutes all year and Stores have a little sign up saying we would like you to wear a mask.

No one has approached me one person and and that was the funny circumstance not at all hostile. So I don't encounter that. Where? Somebody is gonna Be bold and say I don't love them because I'm not wearing a mask, but churches are doing that.

Yeah and so it isn't. I know a couple of people right now that this has scared them because now their church is Requiring this and I'm like no to live as Christ to die as gain. We don't have that fear, but it but it does give that appearance.

So if your virtue signaling love of neighbor, you may also be virtue signaling fear of death.

And this is what I've been hearing from both of you. And I think this is the underlying issue with masks. Andrew you're talking about the fact that it's perpetuating a lie, but you're talking about that is perpetuating fear.

Are these things that Christians should be perpetuating? This is not the Christian character. Christians Are not to be characterized by living in fear and we shouldn't be lying or peppered perpetrating lies and so I think that as we look at this is the underlying issue we end up getting to and When I look at the masks the and just it's crazy that it's so divisive.

But I think it's because of the fear that so many have been living under for these past several months. There they've been alone. They've been Separated from people no fellowship and and now they're getting together and people are afraid in some areas to to get together.

They wouldn't do this for the flu. They wouldn't do this for anything else we now know we saw what the president three days of medication done not with everybody, but there are cures for there are things you could take and Those that are in a worse condition.

There's people who for health reasons before any of this didn't go certain places and that's their own choice now it's it's interesting when you said Andrew about the lie because and the intelligence of this virus because I Thought it was interesting I got on I had to get onto a flight and They required me not to wear the mask that I had because it was vented in other words It had a filter on there that gave me fresh air.