Tape 2 - Counseling Seminar

Park Meadows Church

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Whether it's eating meat or whether it's... You know, so they just don't look like they're hearing anything I say. Their eyes glass over and they go into a daze, you know.

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You know you're not giving food to them. And it happens so many times. So, you and I want to counsel with people.

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Because we want to bring them to the point of where they can understand what the Christian life is all about.

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And when you and I go witness, that is actually a form of counseling. When you and I go share the gospel, that's actually a form of counseling.

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When we speak of sermon or speak of spiritual classes. Involved in that is a counseling process whether we recognize it or not.

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Or we can call it whatever other words. So, you and I have to develop what we call a counselor personality.

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A counselor personality. Now that doesn't mean you have to grow a beard. It doesn't mean you have to get your pipe.

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And it doesn't mean that you have to wear canvas shoes. And a wild tie that never matches anything that you wear.

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And it doesn't mean that you have to, you know, do any of those things. But there is a personality attitude that has to be developed to be a counselor.

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And to share it with people. Let me just give you a few of these. And I think there are seven. At least for me there are seven.

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There may be eight. I only know of seven. People will always come to someone they know.

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People will turn to someone they know. Now, they may go to someone they don't know.

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But they will go there because of someone they know. Most likely. Whether it's a medical professional. Say, do you know a good doctor?

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Do you know a good counselor? We hear it all the time. We do not take anyone that is not referred.

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They have to come to us from someone who knows us. It just saves you a lot of problems. Now, so that means you and I must mix with people.

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Well, I'm going to sit home and I'm just going to pray God will send me somebody. Well, sometimes he does.

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Sometimes he does. But that's sort of like sitting in the rocking chair and praying for a harvest without ever planting seeds. It usually doesn't work that way.

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It usually doesn't. You can pray and many times the Lord will bring people by your path. And you know you haven't gone out actively.

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But the more you and I mix with people, the more opportunities you and I are going to have to share with them what we know to be the truth. What we know to be the truth.

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Creating personal contact. Another thought is people will usually turn to someone in confidence that they like.

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People will listen to someone they like. If they like, they can tolerate a lot of things from a person. You and I do.

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Someone that we don't know says certain things to us. We become offended or very hostile or we will become defensive somehow or other.

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But if someone we like says almost identically the same thing, we can kind of overlook it a little bit. I'm not sure.

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They're our friends. I mean, they're saying it because maybe it's true. Something of this nature. So the counselor's personality should be congenial.

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We should be able to accept people for where they are. And not categorize ourselves.

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We have a great tendency as Christian people to move in cliques. That's a cliche, but to move in cliques.

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You know, we say, well, there's people around my financial category, so that's who you're going to meet.

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These people in this area. These people in this educational class. You look at the people we function with.

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We have a great tendency to be with people who are in our category. And yet you and I know that a believer should be comfortable in the person or presence of any other believer.

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No matter what their home is like or what they have or don't have, it matters not. But that isn't the way it is.

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And I heard a situation in a church and there are so many. And a lady came and she said,

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Pastor, I don't think that this lady's going to be happy in our class. What I think is she'd be happier in the other class.

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What she should have said was this. Pastor, if this lady comes into my class, she's going to break up my little clique of power.

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And she's a threat to me. And therefore I don't want her in my class. Put her in that other one and let her do whatever she will over there.

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But the pastor was very perceptive and he put her in there. And it was amazing how that little power structure dissipated within that situation.

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We tend to do such a thing. So people will turn to someone who is congenial and cordial.

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Congenial and cordial. Another part of the Council of Personality that's very basic, of course, is that people obviously turn to someone they respect.

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You say, well, people will turn to any minister. You and I travel around and this is an indictment upon the ministry of the name of God.

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You know what most people will say? I do not go to my pastor. Because if I go to my pastor,

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I'm afraid that everybody in the church will know about it. Or if I go to my pastor,

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I do not believe that he will keep in constant what

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I tell him. Or they will say, if I go to him, look at his home. Look at his life.

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Look at his church. And so they don't have respect. And so they go off to a counselor, marriage counselor.

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They go off to a psychologist or psychiatrist. And they return. So what does that say? In order for respect to be gained, it's earned.

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It is not just given. Respect is something you and I have to earn. And it's not automatically given because we are a, quote, man of God.

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Or we're a woman of God. And because we claim to be in the, you know, have the ordained hand of the

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Lord upon our life, or we're in a certain position as pastor or staff member or deacon or whatever you're in the body of Christ, that respect has to be earned.

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And so that means you ought to be a good character and spiritually mature. That means you and I must first of all get our own life in order and then our own family in order.

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We've got our life in order and our family in order. People will see that and they'll respond to that. And that's where they will come.

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And that's where they will go. And so that's a part of it. The fourth basic factor involved in the counselor personality is people will usually respond to someone who shows an interest in counseling.

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And I'm using that word counseling very generally, not in the professional sense of the word. If you and I show an interest in speaking to people about their difficulties, if they know we are sensitive to their problems,

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Christian people have a theme song. You and I are not as sensitive to other people's problems,

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I think, sometimes when I say you and I. No, but Christians are whole. Christians are so wrapped up in their own lives so many times that they don't fellowship with each other.

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They don't have time for each other. They don't go into each other's homes. Therefore, they don't know. You know, many Sunday school teachers that I know have never,

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I mean, many Sunday school teachers have never been in the home of every person in their class. How could

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I teach somebody and I don't even know what problems they face in their home? I don't know what difficulties they have in their home. I don't know what hurts them.

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How could I teach them? Now, obviously, a pastor cannot go in every home of the church immediately, but he can get there eventually.

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But I know many pastors, excuse me, that have been pastors in churches for years and have never been in every home in their congregation.

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And yet I believe eventually you can get to at least one in every home. Well, God will tell me what to share with him, you know.

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But the people will never respond to you unless you show interest in them personally as well as corporately.

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Something to be available, to be available. And I know that there's a balance that has to be found.

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So they need to know that we are available to them to help them with their problems.

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And I said that we Christians are so wrapped up in ourselves. Sometimes I believe a theme song of modern Christianity is simply nobody knows.

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That's ours, isn't it? I don't have time for yours because you just don't know my problems. I mean, mine are unique.

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Nobody has ever had the problems I got. And yet you and I both know that whatever problems confront you and me, some

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Christian man, woman, boy, or girl has already walked through that particular problem in life and they have gained the victory in their life, and they have peace with the

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Lord in that very same difficulty you and I are now facing. But if you and I do not have our lives balanced, how are we going to help someone else with their life balanced?

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We may can give them advice, but it's much easier for them to accept it and to do something with it if they know that our life is imbalanced and that we are interested in solving their particular difficulties.

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Also, people have a tendency to turn to someone who's competent. Again, I make the point that because you and I happen to be in the ministry does not make us competent.

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There's preparation. God uses prepared people. There's no question He does. And preparation can be a very relative term.

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Some people are more prepared than others, but that's relative because you only have to be as prepared as God wants you to be in the situation that God expects you.

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But you should be as best prepared in your situation when God expects you, whatever happens to you. It doesn't mean everyone goes to college.

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It doesn't mean everyone goes to seminary. It doesn't mean that at all. One of the largest churches in North America, the man who's directed that Trinity School for years, there's a man, and I don't say this to discourage him at all, he has a high school education, churches from all over the country, he'll sit people up there, and he'll say, well, if you want the

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Trinity School to grow, just keep doing what you're trying to do. And it'll grow. And yes, they, oh, sure, they run several thousands.

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He hasn't been off to school learning all this stuff, but he is competent in the area where God's placed him to learn how to do what he does.

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And you and I can do the same. We must be competent. So that means we must study and prepare ourselves in the area that God's placed you, wherever that is.

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Wherever that is. And then another thought is that you must be ethical. People turn to those who are ethical.

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It is, it's amazing how many people go to a counselor, psychiatrist, psychologist, or pastor, and say, well, have you been over here?

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And they say, I'm not going back over there. Just had a couple, came to us not too long ago, and they said, we've been going to another counselor.

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And I said, well, I think it would be wise if you would continue with me. They said, no. And it came out that there was an ethical problem.

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An ethical problem. Professional ethics must be used by a layperson as well as a person who is in the profession because the priority for a good reputation is a must.

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Your reputation cannot be tainted in these areas. People must know you have a good reputation in the field of ethics.

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And then, of course, the seventh one, it is unbelievable to me how many non -believing people turn to people who know

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God. People want, when they come to the crisis, I mean the real crisis, they want to know somebody who knows

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God. Because, you see, they've already been doing what everybody else has been doing, you know, and they'll turn to people who know

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God. And the more of God they see in your life and mine, the more God's able to draw them to you and me as they see the life of the

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Lord manifested in me by the ministry of His Spirit. So, this is part of the counselor's personality.

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Now, if you're a minister, of course, when we go back, we find a minister today, we go back in the

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Old Testament, it's almost a prosthetic attitude. It's almost like an

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Old Testament prophet and the minister of God today, they have so many similarities. They were, you go in the

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Old Testament prophets, they were constantly counseling the people. I mean, we just kind of get the picture sometimes, you know, I think of these men out here proclaiming, you know, repent from the kingdom, you know, and all these things.

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John the Baptist comes storming on the scene, prepare to meet your God. And if you'll read the incidents of Elisha and Elijah, Jeremiah, constantly counseling the people, giving them suggestions, spiritual suggestions, spiritual advice, spiritual guidelines of how to do what

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God wanted them to do. And you find it was because they were called of God. You are called of God.

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Now, you may be called of God into the ministry, but you are called of God unto His Son. And if you are a believer, then

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God's Spirit does indwell you and therefore God has a purpose and a plan for your life. And I always say this,

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God never sent His Son to make you happy. God sent

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His Son to make you holy. And if you and I get our lives holy, then we will be the people, the men and women of God that He wants us to be.

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And then when we come into confrontation with people, then God's Spirit begins to move.

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God's Spirit begins to act. And if that is true, you and I as the

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Old Testament prophets, as the New Testament apostles, as the New Testament Christians, we are going to become conscious of and sensitive to God's leadership.

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If you and I, as Christian people, are not conscious of His leadership, and if we are not sensitive to His leadership, how can we as believers go and assist another individual or a person who even comes to us with their particular difficulty and be assured that we're giving them something from God?

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Something from God. So that means that you and I cannot go through our days in the sort of little routines of life, so to speak, in the relationship that we have to other people.

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And also, when we study the words, the men and women of God, all of them, we will find that they heeded

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God's words and they communicated the truth of God. And the truth of God is not traditional.

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The truth of God is not what someone else told me. The truth of God is basically what

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God teaches me from His words. Now, I can get teaching from other people, and I can listen to that, but I firmly am convinced that Christian people should never make anything a part of their living process until they've gone to the

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Word of God and God has convinced them from His own words through the Spirit in their own life that that's exactly what that Scripture is teaching.

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Because if I don't, then I'm acting upon what someone else has told me, and that's not what I'm supposed to do.

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I'm supposed to do as God leads me through His Spirit according to His words. I take your advice, and I take your counsel, and I take your direction, but I must go to the

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Word of God and find out exactly what it's saying to me. And if it is, then I must react to that and do as God wants me to do.

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And then, of course, such a great lack in my own life that I recognize and am convicted about that the men and women that God has used through history have always been great people of praise.

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Reading the lives of men like George Fitzfield, Peter Cartwright, people in North America, great men.

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Peter Cartwright said, I have laid prostrate before God on my face for three weeks. Three weeks.

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Laid on the face prostrate. Now, that blows me. I can think of all kinds of reasons why men couldn't do that. He's going to lay out there in the woods on his face and just pray for three weeks.

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First thing I thought about, what if it rains? Surely he has to go to the washroom. There are all kinds of reasons why.

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But then I began to read about his life. I read one great man, he said, No, God has never put his hand of anointing power upon any man or woman who did not pray three hours a day.

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I thought, how absurd. Then I went to try to find one. Couldn't find one.

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Now, we're not talking about being busy. Some of the busiest

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Christians are the most deceitful Christians you will ever know. Busy, but deceitful.

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Activity does not make one spiritual. We are active because we are doing those things that God wants us to do.

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And so we must have prayer dominating the life. And I find that if a person wants to give up something, they'll say, well,

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I won't give up prayer, but I'll give up studying God's Word. One does not take place of the other. But if you had to give up one, you'd be better off giving up prayer than studying

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God's Word. Because God is more interested in what he's got to say than what you and I have to say. But it's a balance, isn't it?

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Studying God's Word will drive one to prayer. And prayer will drive one to the study of God's Word.

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If God put the person in your life for you to help, you cannot help that person without praying for them. Impossible. You have to pray for that person because the forces of hell itself will be unleashed upon that person to keep them blinded to the truth of God.

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And you and I have to pray for that individual. And then we'll find that these people that God used had great concern, they had tremendous compassion, and they cared about...

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As I go back and look at early Christianity, and as you go back and study early Christianity, I'm amazed at the sensitivity that they had to each other.

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And yet, even in our fellowship, again, I think we don't take time for each other.

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Years ago, you can go and read about the great meetings of the churches, you can read about the people that spent time with each other.

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They would stay together, they would visit with one another. And now fellowship, which actually means mutual burden -bearing, now means we're going to have to beat.

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So you don't have a fellowship, that means we're going to have to punch and toss and kick you. It has nothing to do with fellowship for forever, if you understand the word.

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The word means mutual burden -bearing. I share with you the burden of my heart.

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You encourage me, exhort me, rebuke me, challenge me. You can share with me the burden of your heart, and we two together, all of us, we shall go to the

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Lord in prayer, and we'll uplift one another and encourage one another. That's what fellowship means. Now there's nothing wrong with having to punch and kick and tell me some sins, but it really has nothing to do with fellowship, because you can have all those things and never have fellowship.

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Never have fellowship. And the one dying need of people today is to know that somebody cares, that somebody will listen.

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We know that in our country, that one third of all teenagers who die in our country commit suicide.

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One third of all teenage deaths are suicides. Major universities in our country now are teaching suicide as a violent alternative to living.

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There are actual classes being taught in some of our major universities in the

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United States that suicide, on actual terms, is a violent alternative to living.

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And the kids are patient. Why? Sure, because nobody cares.

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That's not true. Many people care. You care. I care. Many people care. But they just don't know.

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They just don't know. Young couples. We live in the Dallas -Fort Worth area. Dallas has now become the divorce capital of the

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United States. The divorce rate is higher there right now than it was in December. And so because they're looking for people who will care, and by our caring and our compassion, then obviously we can take and point these people to the will of God for their lives.

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Well, I made mention a few minutes ago, and then I want to give you a chance to perhaps make a comment or two or ask a question if you desire concerning something that we have shared in these moments together.

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I want to give you six attributes of God -given science. As I said,

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I have probably been guiltier or more guilty than any person that I am aware of of not understanding that the accumulation of facts, that the accumulation of information is not

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God's wisdom. It is not wisdom that God needs. And I'm convinced that many times in the ministry and many times in the body of Christ, Christian people, we gain information, we gather facts, which is necessary and it's commendable and it's good and it has to be done.

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We gather this information. We put together these facts. And because we haven't saturated it in prayer, because our daily devotional life is not what it ought to be, and because our commitment is not all that it should be, and because our compassion has not grown to the point at where we'd be willing to give up a meal, or we've not grown to the point of where we'd be willing to sacrifice some recreational time, we've not grown to the point of where we'd be willing to make any sacrifice necessary to touch another life for our

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Lord. Therefore, the caring attitude has not developed. So I rationalize all that away so that whenever they do come, or I do get a chance,

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I'll just pick up the phone and call them, and I'll give them a couple scriptures to read and tell them I'll be praying for them, and that'll solve their problem.

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And so therefore they found me on the tree of life. Six attributes, I believe, of godliness.

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And these are so basic to you, but if you'll permit me just to share them. First of all, I believe that it is pure. That means it is not contaminated by the world's philosophy or the world's ideas.

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You and I as Christians do not get our counsel from ungodly people. We do not get our advice from ungodly people.

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We get our counsel and our advice from Christian people. There are people such as our brother who are in the business world who are

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Christian people who can give those things you and I need from a business perspective, but as a believer.

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We have other brothers and sisters. Christian people who are in the business world who can give us advice in those areas that we need.

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Bible teachers, whatever, banking, whatever. But so many times, Christians get their advice and their counsel for living from people who do not even know their

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God. And if a person does not know Jesus Christ, their God is Satan. And Satan controls their life whether they recognize it or not.

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Jesus said so. He said so. Ye are your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do.

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So we must have a pure wisdom. It must be uncontaminated by the world's philosophy and ideals.

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Secondly, it is to be a peaceable thing. Peaceable. It brings peace with God and it brings peace with oneself.

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And obviously, if I have peace with God, if I have peace with myself, then

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I'll have peace with you. What does the scripture say? Pride brings forth contention. Whenever two believers in a fellowship cannot get along with one another, it's because of pride in one of their lives and there's no exception to that.

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Pride is the root behind every sin. Every sin, the root of it basically is pride.

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It's the sin that got Satan kicked out of heaven, that changed the angels from demons, that changed their abode from heaven to hell, that changed an existence of light to that of darkness.

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Sin is premeditated, predetermined rebellion against God. Now that's awful.

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I like to think of it sort of... Well... I stumble. You know, I forgot. Or I didn't mean to.

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Now I have different kinds. I don't know what kind you have. I have white ones and I have big ones.

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You know, it's all I have. You know, we have white lives, black lives, green lives, blue lives, fibs, stories, tales.

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And one's not as bad as the other. But yet when I put it all together, I find that I rationalize this way and therefore

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I don't have peace with myself because I'm not at peace with the Lord. Therefore I don't have peace with my fellow man. Pride brings forth contention and pride is the root of it all.

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But if we have this peace, then it'll bring peace and it'll bring peace into the fellowship. And then also, a very difficult thing for me and I'm trying to learn this in my life is that the wisdom of God is a gentle thing.

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It brings a gentleness into the life. It's not a weakness, but a gentleness. It is easy to be entreated and it's approachable.

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It's understanding. It is warm and sincere. People have no difficulty.

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The man that works with me, that's our shalom in the

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States. And when he speaks, he just says, he says, can I speak my heart to you?

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And when he speaks, you know he's coming right from his heart. I mean, he's coming right out of his innermost being. When he shares, he's just wide open.

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This is just he. And you have no trouble. Other people I speak with, and I'm sure they have the same me, I don't feel like I've really talked to them.

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You know, I feel like they're just up here. I walk away feeling kind of cool. You know, I don't really feel a meeting of the heart.

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I don't feel a real meeting of the spirit. I'm not talking, their spirit doesn't bear witness to my spirit. And mine doesn't bear witness to theirs.

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It's just something, some kind of a conversation. Gentle. It's entreated.

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Approachable. It's also full of mercy. It's not critical. It's not critical.

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One of the great things that you and I have to deal with in our lives as Christians before we can ever help other people is criticism.

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That's it. No matter what problem they have, and we'll talk about this week, whether it's homosexuality, whether it's lesbianism, whether it's drug abuse, remove that criticism and look at them as the

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Apostle Paul looked at them. It took a miracle of God to change a haughty Pharisee who walked the streets of Jerusalem into the flaming apostle to the

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Gentiles. But from the moment Paul met his Lord, he looked at people as people for whom

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Christ died. That's what he looked at. And he didn't see them with that criticism as he had seen them before.

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He looked at people as Christ would look at them. And that is a merciful look.

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It shows compassion. And then the wisdom of God is that wisdom that brings about in that life good fruit.

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Good fruit. Good works. Good acts. Good deeds. Whether it be the fruit of the

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Spirit, Christian character, the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5, where it talks about the fruits of righteousness,

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Philippians, Romans, which would be our conduct and the winning of the people of the Lord, the converts.

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All of these things, in your life and mine, will help people have confidence in you. And then, this is so hard to begin, and I'm just sharing with you things that I'm dripping with in my own life.

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And that is, without partiality, God is a respectful person.

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I've been members of churches.

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If someone came of good stature, maybe great stature in the community, maybe with professional degrees, and things of that nature, so much is made of it.

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This brother is an attorney. He is the Attorney General. This person is a doctor of law.

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This person is a medical officer. And, oh, the pastor, excuse me, the pastor brother, they'll just make over that person.

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And then, here comes, in our area, we have a lot of seminary students. And most of the seminary students, you know, when

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I went through school, and most of us have gone through any kind of school, you have very little. You're trying to get through school, and yet they have very little.

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So we go, well, so -and -so, so -and -so is coming in. It's just a small thing. Some widow lady comes, and this so -and -so is coming down with us.

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And if they happen to come at the same time, you will see many times more is made over the one who hasn't done the effort to get thrown off.

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You know, I know it is, but it's done many, many times. And I remember,

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I mentioned this quickly in closing, but there was a meeting held some years back.

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And there was an old man, and it's very rare that an old gentleman in his 80s, flowing white hair, came forward to trust the

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Lord. And the people were just so excited about it, and they'd been praying for him for years. And a little boy came down and stood beside him.

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He wanted to give his heart to the Lord. And the pastor dealt with the little boy. And the little boy sat over there, and one of the men came, and they prayed, and the little boy asked the

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Lord to come to his heart. And so he stood back up, and the people just came by and said, Pastor, and just hugged that older gentleman and just loved him and so forth, and just went on.

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And the little boy just, he just, many of them walked right by him. Two weeks later, the older gentleman died.

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And that little boy was Dr. W .A. Criswell, pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, the largest Southern Baptist church in the world.

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Nobody said much to him, but the little boy, you see, we don't know who's standing there.

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And God doesn't deal with people that way. He wouldn't make a difference who he was. For he's seven or seven.

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God looked at him with the eyes without partiality. And you and I must learn that secret.

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Tomorrow, you're patient people. You see, I like, my goal is this.

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I like to probe people. I like to deal with things that will help us and challenge us individually.

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Because if we just deal with the professional aspects of counseling techniques and procedures as we move in some of these particular areas of how to set up an appointment, and some of the pastors were saying, you know, how are we going to do this?

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How do we set up these appointments? And how do we do these particular things? I want us to be aware that, you know, that some are not in these areas.

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And so, I'm a sensitivist and I want to give some things that will help us all. And then, of course, we move into the areas of marital counseling.

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I want to talk to you about our own marriage relationships and move into some of these other particular areas.

30:17

Concerning something that I've shared with you, something I've said that I should not have said or something that I said or didn't say and should have said, would you have a thought or a concern in that area or a question concerning something?

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We'll take just a few moments and share that with you. We don't have to do anything until seven.

30:37

Yes, ma 'am. Would I define ethics?

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Ethics, they say, the basic definition of ethics is my relationship with those around me.

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And, of course, you and I, as believers, I would look at it on godly principles. And so, to me, to deal with ethics,

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I deal with what is my response to them according to the principles that God has laid out before me, using godly principles.

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And so, I base my relationship or response to other people in every avenue of life.

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If I don't, then I'm not. So, when I say bad ethics, when other people look at me and they say he's a

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Christian, then he is violating a biblical principle. But I also can violate a business principle, a business principle.

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If I have two fees and I charge somebody that has money one fee, and if they don't have it, then

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I'll give them the lower one so I can keep them. You know, there are fees that bounce like that.

31:50

So, integrity plays such an important part. And this is a field that integrity is so important.

31:58

So important. Because there's so much room for misunderstanding. Exactly so.

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And the problem with that is an additional problem. And that's exactly true. The pastors are so limited.

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He doesn't have the time. And we were talking about this last evening with Dr. Paul and John and we were speaking and they were saying that the pastors are so limited that, and I know myself, that I got so out of balance when we first started taking people in years ago that that's all

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I did. And I didn't realize that's all I was doing. I thought I was fulfilling other things, but I wasn't. And so he is so limited that consequently a lot of churches are bringing in people and putting them on staff who are capable, competent, and qualified to take over this area.

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Not that the pastor would not do some, but it would relieve him of the burden of that and place someone in the community that can bring the people and have a counseling ministry through the body.

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And also, it's such a great tool because anyone that is dealt with will have an allegiance to that fellowship. They just will.

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The tragedy is if we don't send them to, and if there are no

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Christian psychologists or psychiatrists, then obviously they're going to turn somewhere. And Satan always has somebody available for them.

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He always does. So I also believe this is why Christian people individually, that individual Christians in the fellowship can prepare themselves to a point as to where many of the difficulties that people face, that person is capable of handling those.

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Only the severe cases, if you want to use that word, would have to come to a person and set up a series of sessions together.

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Many of their problems, if we can get by what they're saying, go to the root, could be solved by the average

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Christian in the fellowship if we would just prepare ourselves. And we'll talk about that. You know,

34:55

I think a person needs to know a little bit about anatomy. We need to know some of these things that can happen.

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Sometimes they need a physical. Sometimes it's amazing they've come to you with problems. Sometimes they need a physical.

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That's one of the things I ask them, have you had a physical recently? And sometimes they go get a physical and they've got a metabolism problem or they've got a blood problem.

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So we have to know there are three parts, body, soul, and spirit. And either one of those can get out of balance and they will all affect the other.

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Each one affects the other. Get that scent out of your life, man, you'll be alright. You know, that's really true.

35:31

It is two answers that I have had all my life. And this is the thing that started us moving in the area of trying to understand spiritual warfare and demonic problems is

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I had the two answers that at least in our area that every preacher knew well. I was taught well.

35:50

If someone came to me, I had two answers. Go pray about it. Or, if you really wanted to, you could.

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Until I found people who wept and cried and tried and couldn't. They're not incapacitated.

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And then I found people who tried to pray and couldn't. Could not repeat the name

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Jesus Christ no matter what he said. And I had no answers to them at that time.

36:17

And God fed us for that. So I feel like that, you know, Christian people can, and it's not very difficult to just, how can

36:27

I say it, if most Christians would take, and as our brother has been telling us, to apply the time properly, to apply the time in the areas that we want to develop instead of just reading everything we grab.

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You know, we just grab off the little bookshelves and we get all these little paperback books and we read everything under the sun.

36:42

Number one is, if we spend as much time reading the Bible as we do those, we'll be Bible scholars. But take a little time away from the

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TV, take a little time away from those books and say, okay, I want to be able to help people. And get some helps and go through those.

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And then you learn to fish by fishing. So to just begin helping people.

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But if your community doesn't have them, then the church has a tremendous opportunity. A tremendous opportunity.

37:08

Now, I think you're perfectly right.

38:12

I think there's three or four things involved in that. I think what you're saying is exactly true. The one thing is the people and the fellowship, of which, you would pastor and any other pastor, hopefully would have the confidence that the pastor knows what's best.

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And that it's not his heart that's the concern. That I will not take anyone who is under doctor's care.

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Anyone who's going to anyone else for help or counsel, I do not take them. I will not talk with them. Because there's a conflict.

38:40

There's tensions. They're going to get one part of it. They're going to get some information from me. They're going to get different information from them.

38:46

So until they're completely released. And I, when I first started, we used to go into the mental hospitals and we'd go into the hospitals.

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I'd go into the, you know, we used to call it the banana room. You know, the rubber wards. I mean, the whole bit.

38:59

You know, because I had those cliches and that's what I thought. And it caused so many difficulties. So many difficulties.

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And yet, and then on the other hand, from my own personal, I have, through my life, lived according to the expectations of other people for me.

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And I played that role. And so, I went back and restudied again Moses at the

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Red Sea. And the people said, Moses, you better do something. And Moses said, I'm standing right here until God tells me to move.

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And so, the people always say, move? I can't move until God says move. I can't go until God says go.

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I won't stop until God says stop. So, though the chariots are behind me and the mountains are around me and the sea in front, then we just have to stand there and hope that God will help them understand that I'm not, it's not that I don't want to go and it's not that I don't care.

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It's just that it's the best. And trust me, that God is working in my heart and when the time is right, then we'll move.

39:56

Then we'll move and God will work that out. It's very difficult. People will not understand. They will not understand why a pastor does not go when they've asked him to go.

40:07

And yes, we've had, it can cause you tremendous legal problems. We've not had any legal problems out of it.

40:13

But we've been in situations, I've gone in meetings. I'd be there for a prophecy conference or I'd be there for an abundant life conference or something.

40:20

The pastor said, we've got a young man or young woman that's over here and they've been committed to the psychiatric ward for observation.

40:26

Their parents have requested, you go down and speak with them. Would you like that? I said, sure, I'll go. I'll go down there. You can't accomplish a whole lot because you're in a room and they're in the rec room and they won't let you go because you're in his room or her room so you're in the rec room.

40:38

They won't even usually give you a room by yourself. You just have to get over in a corner somewhere. And you accomplish nothing other than a visit.

40:46

And it's interesting and this is something we're going to cover Friday, that any person who is truly mentally ill, truly mentally ill, when you pray with that person, it will not matter one way or the other.

40:59

But if you can pray with that person and they immediately settle down, then their problem is not mental illness.

41:07

If you confront them with spiritual life, if you pray specific prayers and they quieten down, you know their problem is from elsewhere.

41:15

It's from elsewhere. So there are a lot of things that fall through and we'll get into those areas.

41:21

This is where most people are. Whether they're in mental hospitals, most people do not understand that their problems come from an enemy.

41:29

I would have no hesitance in saying the majority of problems that face people are demonic harassments.

41:37

But that doesn't mean that they have to go and attack a demon to solve the problem. Thought, question?

41:45

Your time is gone. We'll stay until 7. Thank you, Pastor. You know,

41:53

I made another mistake in 1948. It really wasn't mine. The mistake was that I accepted it as my own.

42:03

Six areas of professional ethics concerning counseling an individual. Again, it doesn't matter whether you are a quote, professional counselor.

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The fact that you and I as Christian people are given not only the opportunity but we are given the direction of God to use our lives to influence other people in the total personality, not just the spiritual part of a person, but even to help them physically, help them with a diet.

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I have notes here where we can give you some guidelines on a diet. Now, I don't use them, but I can give them to you. It's great to help other people solve their problems.

42:42

We just don't apply them to myself. Let me give you six of these basic ideas.

42:48

Most of these things you already know. I just want us to rethink about them somewhat. The first one is simply confidentiality.

42:57

Now, you and I believe in confidentiality. When we speak to someone, we expect them, when we say to them, look, this is between you and me.

43:07

Please, keep this in confidence. Can I speak to you in confidence? Can you and I speak about this?

43:14

Oh, yes. And then, you see, they have a confidant. They have a friend who prays with them about everything.

43:23

So, they go to their friend and say, now, look, this has been shared with me in confidence, but you're my prayer partner, and you and I pray about everything.

43:31

So, now, what I'm going to tell you is in strict confidence. But, you see, they have a prayer partner also, and they share everything with their husband or their wife.

43:42

I mean, you don't keep secrets from your husband or wife. So, they say, now, look, I was discussing with someone today, but now this is in the strictest of confidence, and it begins to move.

43:53

It begins to move, and without wanting to or desiring to, we have broken a confidence.

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When you and I give someone our word that this is in confidence, it must be in confidence.

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You must keep it there, and we must remember that what they are sharing with us is extremely important.

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It can be devastating to their life, even though it may be very superficial in your life or mine.

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Lives have been ruined. Men are out of ministry today. Homes have been destroyed by the simple slip of the tongue of another

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Christian. Not meaning to harm, and it was not malicious, but breaking a confidence.

44:35

Breaking a confidence. So, let's remember the confidential nature of the information that is shared with us.

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The second one is the handling of written information. Written information is extremely explosive.

44:46

We would probably have a man in the White House in the United States today if he just thought to burn one tape. I mean, you know,

44:53

I thought about that myself. I said, man, I'd destroy that rascal. I'm not smart, but I'm smart enough to know that.

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I would have gotten rid of that one and I'd still be in power, you see. Information that is put down should be locked in a safe place if it's confidential.

45:07

If it affects, I have locked in my desk, I have files of all kinds of counseling opportunities,

45:15

I have a drawer full of material that letters written to me that are of personal nature, but they are not confidential letters.

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There are letters that people have just shared thoughts and ideas with me, something about what God's doing in their life. There are others that are of a very serious nature that are locked in my desk and I have the only key.

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I don't mind my wife looking in there, you know, because she's a part of my life, but it is information she doesn't necessarily need.

45:43

She knows general information, she knows who I'm talking to, and she knows generally what area

45:50

I'm talking about. But as far as the explicit details, you only deal with those who need to know.

45:56

You only deal with those who need to know. And so we must recognize that this material needs to be worked and kept in a safe place and again work on the premise of only telling people who need to know.

46:07

Everybody wants to know everything, but they don't need to know.

46:13

They don't need to know. And so deal on that basis with the handling of written information and then also illustrations.

46:21

You and I must be very careful in using illustrations because it has happened many, many times.

46:28

You have read of the instance and you probably have heard of the instance and we call it ministerially speaking and that gives us a little license to exaggerate and add here and subtract there and so forth and it's amazing when you hear some people speak they will give you an illustration of something that happened to them and all of a sudden you remember reading a book written by a man in 1894 that that same incident occurred to them identically in the same location and then you begin to check it out and you find this person has never been in that city and it's sort of this way but be very careful of taking illustrations and using them because someone there may know what you're talking about.

47:08

Don't use people that you are presently working with as an illustration. You can use one way in the past, something that has occurred without names or anything that would let someone know exactly what you're talking about but you see if it's current then someone else may already know about the situation and that can devastate a fellowship.

47:29

It can devastate a home and so you and I need to be very careful about that and then also choose an appropriate place, an appropriate place.

47:39

This is important. Of course obviously an office is extremely important. I never and I have in the past and it has caused some difficulties.

47:49

I have learned my lesson at least at this point never if you are a minister of course, if you are a mayor in the ministry or if you're out of the ministry never counsel with a female without your secretary being in that office.

48:05

Never counsel in your office with a female alone. You can go 30 years and it will never cause you a problem but within 15 minutes you can be out of the ministry.

48:15

Within 15 minutes just by being as innocent but all someone has to do is to see and to think and the enemy will take that and he will run through the town with it.

48:25

So be extremely careful about that. If you go knock on a home and you're visiting as a minister or as a deacon or something and there's a lady there no matter how well you know them, how loving they are, your families can be as close as this.

48:40

Do not go in that home alone. Just don't. You say well listen

48:45

I mean you know I understand all the reasoning that goes behind it but I will show you you have an enemy out here that is far more subtle than you are ever.

48:55

He is wise and shrewd and he is lurking and waiting to just set a trap for you and he will set that trap and once in this room you cannot go back up through that trap.

49:05

You will remain hung. You will remain hung and you can be as innocent as the day is long.

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I can sit and give you illustration after illustration and you can give them to me of men and women who are out of the ministry today because they were not careful in these areas.

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You must be extremely careful in these areas and you can even take that into the phone call situation and so be very careful and then also this is very difficult for many of us to do but it is important recognize your limitations.

49:40

No one person has all the answers to every situation. Don't hesitate to refer them to someone else that you feel like is more qualified than you.

49:49

I mean there may be someone else who has expertise in a particular area and you say you know I would love to talk with you and I believe that I could help you to a point but I have someone else that I just feel like it would be better for you if you could talk with them.

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I think that they are what you are looking for. Somehow or other get this person to them and so know that you and I no one person, man or woman, is capable of handling every case that comes to them.

50:15

But now the ego is a tremendous thing and pride is a blinder of humanity.

50:22

And you will say well you know I am the only one in town and I am the only one that can handle this problem.

50:29

Oh no you are not. I used to think I was the only person alive that walked with God. I never knew about the seven thousand.

50:35

I said Lord it is just me and you against the world. God means you are going to get them. I mean we are going to go but it is just me and you.

50:41

And then I began to find a brother here and a sister here and a brother here and a sister here and it is just amazing how many people could assist you and help you if you just let them know about it.

50:49

Let them know about it. And so God has his people and it may be someone sitting in the fellowship of your church.

50:55

It may be someone sitting in your office. You never know where they are. But God will give you this assistance and so recognize our limitations and if there is no one to help there are many people and in my church there are people who have come to us and they have even said can you help me?

51:13

And I said yes I can. Can you help me overcome this? Yes I can. Will you?

51:18

And I said I am sorry I can't. I can't because God won't give me peace about it. You see you are not to counsel with everyone who comes to you even though you may can help them.

51:28

You have to pray to find out if God wants you as that person because again the enemy will trap you and he will get you into a situation and he will make that thing so complex you will never get out of it.

51:40

We have to be discerning rather than dispensers of information and find out does

51:45

God when someone comes to me they call us in our office this is just something we have learned through the years.

51:51

And under those who I receive counsel from they all agree that this should be done. And they do it in their lives and I have the greatest respect for them and they are renowned for their integrity and so if someone calls and makes an appointment they come in and I sit down and I give them an hour, an hour and a half to find out what

52:10

I think their difficulties are and what they are telling me and let them open their hearts up to me and then I say alright now will you call me back at this time on this day and that will give me sufficient time to pray to see if God is going to put your life and mine together.

52:26

But you see the ego says well just take it. Here they come to you. And they are coming to you and you can do the blessing to them.

52:35

That sounds noble and it sounds great but I just don't believe that it is true.

52:41

I just don't believe that it is true. There are those that God will send to you and those are the people you deal with, those that God puts in your path.

52:49

And so you and I need to recognize of course limitations and then we must be very careful to guard our comments.

52:57

To guard our comments. A person who is going to receive really sensitive in the area of counseling will never comment on another counselor or another counselee.

53:07

They will say now I went to this counselor and you know, do you know them? Yes I am aware of that person. Well what do you think about it?

53:14

I say I wouldn't go to that guy if he is the last guy in town. No. No. You say you know it is not my policy.

53:22

It is not my lifestyle. It is just not my way. I just don't comment on other counselors.

53:27

I don't comment. You know so and so came to you and he had this problem and they had that problem and they told you to help them.

53:35

I just say how can I help you? Just don't comment on what someone else has told you.

53:42

You know Ms. Jones came to me the other day and she was just like you. I mean she was angry like you.

53:48

She was bitter at her husband just like you. She said she did. So she goes and calls Ms. Jones later on and says you know what he told me?

53:54

He told me that you were angry and bitter at your husband. Well here comes the husband. What do you mean my wife is bitter at me? And for a long time you've got something on your hand you'll never get rid of it.

54:02

It's like fly paper. It's there and you can't shake it off. The more you shake it the more it sticks. So be careful in guarding our comments.

54:11

Now in arranging a counseling situation someone calls you. Again they are a professional person.

54:19

I believe there are seven basic factors that you'd want to consider. Whether you're just going to meet them in your home as a wife or a mother or if you want to meet them in the church as the minister.

54:30

One is of course obviously an appointment has to be set. We have to set an appointment. Now it is my discovery that you use the time that is best for you because if you let people choose the time that they're going to come and visit you they will pick that time.

54:48

Our brother's been telling us this for two days now. They'll pick the time that you've got something scheduled in there. You know your schedule better than anyone else does.

54:56

Let them come and if they want to come and if they believe that God's sending them to you or if you believe that then

55:02

God will give you the right time. God will give you the right time. But you control the appointment.

55:08

You control that appointment and it's worthy of a definite appointment and you say well just come in Wednesday I'll be here all day just whatever is convenient for you.

55:16

I've done that so many times. They'll say I don't know when I can come. I say well I'll be here all day just anytime

55:21

I'm not doing anything just come on in. I mean my brother he has bombed my mind these two days. He said I've been found all kinds of things

55:28

I've been doing wrong. But this is one of them. But also it will increase that person's respect for you if you are disciplined in the area of time.

55:38

Obviously they will. And then prepare for the interview. My desk looks like someone came in there with that junk drawer and dumped it on top of my desk.

55:51

So I don't have a junk drawer. I have a junk desk. And it has everything on it.

55:57

I have videotapes sitting up there. I have a folder of scheduling for 1983.

56:03

One for 1984. One for 1985. They're there. I have four or five different calendars. I have pictures.

56:09

I have my telephone. I have a little thing I use that tells me you know the little sand that tells you how long that you have for your long distance call.

56:16

I never use it. It's just sitting there. I never have used it. But you can turn it up and it's three minutes when it runs out. But it's just there. I don't know why it's there.

56:22

It's just there. And I have a Bible and I have a sign. I have candy. I have the whole thing. It's just there. I have paper that I never use.

56:30

I have my little dictating machine. It's sitting there. I never use. Eight pencils and pens lying there. I mean eight. They're just there.

56:37

But you watch when somebody comes in. When I know someone's coming, that desk looks neat. I mean I get it all wrong when they come in for the counseling.

56:44

Why? Because if they come in there and they see that, that's their impression that they're going to have. And they're going to say, man, this guy's so disorganized.

56:51

How's he going to help me? And so you and I need to be sincere. Make the room comfortable. Wherever you choose, make it a comfortable place.

56:59

Make it a clean place. And make it where it is not distracting. And then put it into a situation where you can gather the knowledge from that person that you need.

57:09

Put it into that kind of a situation where you can gather that knowledge. And then you begin the interview.

57:14

That would be the third thing. Gather the information and begin the interview. The beginning probably is the most difficult time in talking to someone.

57:23

They just say to you, I don't know where to start. I just don't know what to say. Now, the quickest response would be, you know, to say, well, what did you come over here for?

57:34

I mean, you turned on the phone, you wanted to talk to me, now you get here and you don't want to talk. It's interesting when you're eye to eye as it is on the telephone.

57:41

And so you sometimes have to start it. Be very direct. Don't beat around the bush. Be direct, be candid, and be clear.

57:49

Be direct with them. They'll say, how can I help you? What problems are you facing?

57:57

What would you say is your biggest problem? Why did you come to me? Why do you think

58:04

I can help you? Any number of things to start them and start with a premise.

58:10

I usually say to them after they tell me something, they say, can you help me? I say, I always have one question

58:16

I need to ask you. Do you want to want to help me?

58:35

Do you want to help Do you want to help

58:42

Do you want to help Do you want to help Do you want to help me? Do you want to help me? Is someone if you can't help me, then you can help them else ?

58:55

Do you want to Do you want to help me? Do you want All are same all are t he same you and I All I need to do is to elicit from them a commitment.

59:12

A commitment. And you do that by beginning that interview. And then determine the length. Determine the length of the interview.

59:19

And there are four variables involved in determining a length. Of how long you're gonna talk to this individual.

59:26

How long will we take? My time that's available. How much time do I have, do I give to them? Now most normally if someone comes to our office and I'm gonna talk with them,

59:34

I usually settle in an hourly basis. And I'll say, okay, an hour. And I always extend, in my own mind,

59:40

I don't tell them, but I give them an extra half hour. It's gonna take me about an hour and a half.

59:45

But if I say an hour and a half, then they're gonna run an hour, you know, then it go beyond that. So I tell them an hour, and they're committed at about an hour.

59:52

I have a clock on my desk that I used to use. I don't use it anymore. But it's still sitting there. And I just set it for an hour.

59:59

And it'd just go out. Mm, I think this goes off in an hour. And you know, put this on them, they sit in there, tears and weeping or whatever, and then all of a sudden they go into orbit when that thing goes off.

01:00:10

So I don't use that anymore, but I am aware of the time. And so my time that is available.

01:00:16

Your counselee's time. Maybe they've come, they've taken the morning off from work.

01:00:22

Now let me insert something here that I don't have here, but just came to my mind, something we have to be careful about in counseling people, to really be sensitive to it.

01:00:30

People, if you're a minister, if you're in a church, people will take off from work to go to a medical doctor, they'll take off from work to go to a dentist, they'll take off work to go to anyone except a minister.

01:00:42

They want you to be there after they get off of work. I usually will tell them, and most of them know what we do, this isn't all that we do.

01:00:54

I've had, in our ministry, we've conducted over 1 ,000 revival efforts and Bible conferences. That's basically where we spend a lot of our time.

01:01:02

And then, of course, doing things in Jewish missions and so forth. This is just a part of what we do in counseling with people.

01:01:08

But I have found this, I just say, when I tell them what time I want them to come in, I pick a time that is convenient for me.

01:01:15

And they'll say, oh, I can't come in that time. And I'll say, why can't you come in at that time? And they'll say, well, I can't get off that day.

01:01:22

I say, what day can you get off? Or can you get off that afternoon? And I say, let me see if I can make an adjustment here.

01:01:28

And so then I will, but I give them the time I want them to come and people can do it if they want to come. And if they don't, you'll be there all night or you'll be there early in the morning.

01:01:36

I have them come in and say, can you meet me at seven? I used to be in my office at seven o 'clock every morning. Seven o 'clock we were in the office every morning and we'd stay till five and six o 'clock every day.

01:01:46

And I found that when I didn't do that, people still came. So they take off, they get off. School teachers can get off.

01:01:52

I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing. So we put that requirement there. We consider our time,

01:01:58

I do consider their time. The third thing that's involved, the variable that's involved in determining the length of the interview is the type of the problem.

01:02:05

Each case is different. Each problem has to be dealt with in that life in a different way.

01:02:12

It may be the same problem because problems are basically the same because human nature's the same.

01:02:18

But it shows up differently in that personality and sometimes it's a little more complex in that personality.

01:02:24

So I have to figure out what that problem is that I am considering, what is the nature of it. And then

01:02:29

I will determine the length of the interviews according to that particular difficulty. And the fourth thing is the degree of progress.

01:02:37

It is very difficult for me to keep in my mind that not everyone is at the same stage of Christian growth.

01:02:44

There are mature Christians and there are baby Christians. There are spiritual Christians, there are carnal

01:02:50

Christians. There are those who are walking in a plane of Christian living that most of us desire to walk in.

01:02:57

There are others who have been believers for 30 and 40 years and have never grown. They're still spiritual pygmies, spiritual midgets.

01:03:05

You have all this to deal with and so you must allow each person to move along at their own pace.

01:03:12

And so at the very beginning, we usually keep them short. We keep them short and then as we begin to progress, we extend them.

01:03:22

Now my purpose is to get them to a point where I can still counsel with them but keep them out of my office.

01:03:27

And I do that by getting them into a situation as to where I can deal with them on the telephone. I can say, look, I can work it out where you don't have to come into the office but you call me at this time on this day and let's check this out together.

01:03:40

And so I can spend 20 to 30 minutes with them on the phone as opposed to an hour and I can accomplish the same thing.

01:03:46

They don't have to leave where they are to come to my office. I don't have to stop a lot of things going on in order to deal with them.

01:03:52

And we can still accomplish that work, keep them in a counseling situation and be the guide. All I am to them is a resource.

01:03:59

I am a guide and a director. I am not a problem solver. They have to solve their own problem with the

01:04:06

Lord and they will with just guidance, with just guidance. And so this is what we do with this.

01:04:12

Now, the fifth thing that's involved, the fifth factor in a counseling arrangement is close the interview.

01:04:19

Our brother spoke about this so eloquently this morning and this applies to the counseling situation.

01:04:25

A closing a phone call or something, it is the counselor's responsibility to close the interview, not the counselee.

01:04:32

Plus they will talk as long as you let them talk. I mean, they have a lifetime of difficulties.

01:04:37

They have a whole life they want to share with someone. It is my responsibility to close that interview.

01:04:44

And so what I do with them is I summarize the main points of what we've talked about with them and then

01:04:51

I begin to close that interview. I set the next appointment immediately. That keeps continuity.

01:04:58

I immediately let them know that I'm not through with them, that I'm still gonna stand with them, I'm still gonna walk with them. And some of them have, well, we've had them come for a year.

01:05:08

We have a man, a friend of ours who is, I've mentioned to you, that is in North America.

01:05:16

So I have no doubt that he is without a doubt the authority on spiritual warfare and demonic counseling.

01:05:26

And he's had a young lady since 1969 that he has been counseling with and she still does not have victory in her life.

01:05:35

And yet she does everything she is told to do. Now, I cannot explain that to you and neither can he and neither can she.

01:05:41

And her dad was one of the leading evangelists in the United States. And yet she does.

01:05:47

So what I'm saying to you is do not expect that there's some magical formula that you can give someone or that we can rattle off a few scriptures and they can go off and begin praying and immediately get a solution to their problems.

01:05:59

It doesn't work that way. So counseling takes time. And if you're gonna counsel with someone, whether you're a layperson, our own staff, or a minister, whatever, you must plan on spending some time with them.

01:06:11

It will take time. It will take time. And it'll take your time. And it's going to take some and so it has to be done.

01:06:17

And then the seventh factor is keep good records. Know what you have said to them. Know what they have said to you and know what you have told them to do.

01:06:27

And we'll talk about that. And I have some modules that I'll give to you later on in the week, but homework.

01:06:34

We give them homework. They have projects that they have to do. And if they don't do them,

01:06:40

I'll give them a little leeway, but if they continue not to do them, then we don't deal with them any longer. They have to commit themselves to us concerning that.

01:06:49

Now, when you get into this first session, there are 10 basic points that you need to cover.

01:06:55

Whether you're a housewife just sitting talking to someone who's come to you, there are 10 basic things that you need to establish if you're going to help someone with their personal difficulties.

01:07:04

And the first one being, you must let them know or you must establish the fact that you are the counselor, they are the counselee.

01:07:12

You don't have to do this by necessarily saying, look, I'm going to be the leader and you're going to be the follower, but leadership has to be established.

01:07:19

Somehow or other, you have to get into that situation that you are going to lead it, you're going to guide it. If you don't, and they're a dominant personality, they'll lead it, and they've got the problem for long.

01:07:28

You're never going to just go the proverbial circle. And so leadership has to be established.

01:07:34

The second thing is that it must be Bible -centered from the very beginning. Don't start with philosophy.

01:07:41

Don't start with logic. Don't start with psychology or sociology. Let them know from the very beginning that what you share is going to be

01:07:48

Bible -centered. No apologies, no reservation or hesitation. We're going to base what we talk about upon God's word.

01:07:56

There are others who won't. If they don't want that, then they will go to someone else. They will go to someone else and you'll not waste that time.

01:08:04

You'll not waste that time. Not waste in the sense of dealing with a human life, but God will give you somebody who will do that, who will do that.

01:08:11

The third thing is to very quickly determine if that person is a born -again believer. Go right to it.

01:08:19

May I ask you, sir, has there ever been a time in your life when you realized that you were lost and that you realized sin was in your life and you realized that there was a

01:08:31

God and his son, Jesus Christ, paid for your sins and you committed your life to him in repentance for the forgiveness of sin?

01:08:39

Has there ever been anything like that in your life, sir? Well, I remember when

01:08:45

I was about four years old, I went and followed in a church and I think I got baptized, I believe.

01:08:51

Well, where was this? He doesn't have the foggiest. He doesn't know. Then move in and deal with the root problem of being born again.

01:09:00

Deal with that person about their salvation. You know, it doesn't take three days. Deal with them immediately about it.

01:09:06

Deal with them immediately about it. They may not get saved, but you can give them the word of the Lord and if they're under conviction, they may be.

01:09:12

If they're not, then let the Lord put them under conviction. But they cannot make a decision if they don't see a need.

01:09:18

So we gotta let God use us to create that need. And then the fourth point is that a series of Bible readings, and we'll show you this in the module that we have, a series of Bible reading is assigned to that counselee.

01:09:33

Assign them a series of Bible readings, but we'll explain that later in the point of use

01:09:38

Bible reading. You know, Jesus quoted scripture to the enemy. But isn't it interesting, he just didn't quote any scripture.

01:09:44

He quoted the appropriate scripture at the appropriate time. I mean, let's just suppose that Satan came to the

01:09:50

Lord and he said, showed him a panoramic view of all the kingdoms of the world and said, if you'll fall down and worship me,

01:09:57

I'll give you all those. And Jesus said, remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. Big deal,

01:10:03

Satan, he knows that one too. He knows most of them. In fact, I'm confident that he knows all of them.

01:10:11

They believe in tremble. No, you and I must learn which scripture fits which situation to use the appropriate scripture at the appropriate time.

01:10:21

And John 3, 16 doesn't fit every particular counseling situation as wonderful a scripture as it is.

01:10:29

And so you know what we're saying, so give them a series of Bible readings and these have to be prepared beforehand for the general situations.

01:10:38

And then you can adapt them to the particular situations. Now you say, but I, I'm a lay person. I can name you housewives who have this down.

01:10:46

I can name you housewives who do a tremendous amount of counseling with people. I can name you deacons who do a tremendous amount of counseling with people.

01:10:55

I can name you something to do more than ministers do. And they're successful at it because they have this preparation before them.

01:11:03

And then the counselor should give hope immediately. Tell that person, there is hope, there is victory, and your problem, as insurmountable as it seems to be, it can be solved, it can be solved.

01:11:18

If you don't think you can solve it, just say, I don't believe that I am the one to help you, but I know someone who can.

01:11:24

Let me get them and let's get you to them quickly. That problem can be solved, it can be.

01:11:30

Give them hope because that's what they've come for. And then attempt to solve, if you're going to counsel with this person, assume you have that responsibility now, attempt to solve some minor problem in their experience during that first session.

01:11:45

Solve some difficulty in their life, very easy to do. There'll be some little, what you might call a trivia problem that they have.

01:11:53

And you can solve that and that gives them greater hope. Solve a small problem, at least one, in their experience.

01:12:03

And then begin to focus in on the solution to the problems that they've come to you for.

01:12:10

Begin to move and focus towards those problems. Begin determining what they are and then move into that direction.

01:12:17

Again, the next one I've mentioned already is homework. It's to be assigned, that will do two things.

01:12:23

It will bring the results that you want, not just for the sake of homework, but that it will bring a result that you are looking for in that life and also it will give you additional information concerning that person.

01:12:38

If you say, I want you to go and here's a prayer, I want you to pray. And they come back and say, man,

01:12:43

I just can't pray that prayer. You say, why? I don't know, I just can't, I can't concentrate on it.

01:12:49

Or you say, go read this scripture. And it's a very basic, we have four Bible studies that we use with people in their homework projects.

01:12:57

There are four and each one gets deeper than one before. And we have one very basic and it's six lessons.

01:13:04

It is thorough but basic. None of these were written by myself so therefore I can promote them freely. I didn't write any of them.

01:13:12

And so, and I have had people who've been in church for years who've come back and I said, you know, do you have your first study?

01:13:19

And they say, you know, and I've had them work for months. And yet I can give you kids eight, nine, 10 years old that can just whiz right through them.

01:13:26

There has to be a reason why that person is having difficulty with that particular study if they're trying to do it.

01:13:32

So what we need to do is to give them homework that will give us that information about the difficulties in their life and then also if they can do it, it'll bring that result that you want them to have.

01:13:43

And then one of the other points that needs to be covered is that other counselees can be asked to help this counselee to assist in eliminating that problem.

01:13:57

There are some problems that you can deal with, an individual or someone else is experiencing that problem but they're already further along and they're moving towards that point where you know they're gonna have the victory in their life, they're getting their life in balance and they can be of great assistance to you in helping discipling or guiding this other person.

01:14:19

Now of course, if this person has some good balance and they also have some disciplines already in this area, you don't wanna take someone that's emotionally not stable and this type and turn them over to them but they can be of great assistance.

01:14:34

Sometimes you can even bring them in and I'm not into group therapy, I don't deal with that.

01:14:40

I don't deal with integrity therapy or anything of this nature because I'm not, I just don't believe that there are biblical ways of dealing with people.

01:14:47

I believe you need to do it on an individual basis but you can bring a person in and let them share that experience and tell how they're gaining joy and victory in that life and we do that in the church all the time.

01:14:57

We give testimonies and people say, you know I had this problem and here's what happened and here's what the Lord did and that encourages somebody in that fellowship, they say, well

01:15:05

I'm having that same problem and so it encourages, well you can do that in the counseling situation and then the 10th point to be covered in the first session is to determine what the main problem or what the root problem really is.

01:15:18

What they tell you the problem is is not usually the problem. That is a symptom and you can spend months dealing with symptoms but go to the root.

01:15:30

You can prune the limbs but if you go down to the root and get the bores out of the root, you can solve the problem with the tree and that's what you and I need to do.

01:15:40

Now there are several schools of thought in dealing with people. Let them talk or not let them talk.

01:15:47

How much should I let this person talk? I mean if I let them talk, they'll just talk all day. Yes, I mean they've got problems.

01:15:53

They'll weep, they'll cry, they'll get up and walk around. Some will run, some will scream, some will fight.

01:15:59

I had a pastor who called me and he said, Rocky, can you come to my office immediately?

01:16:06

And I said, what's the matter? He said, emergency. I said, what's going on? He said, there's a guy, he said he's taking a rocking chair and he's hit his wife and they've come to me and he's standing here and he's weeping and he's ripping his shirt off and he's screaming, just ripping his shirt off.

01:16:20

And I said, well, I'll be there shortly and there was about 10 or 12 minute drive from my office.

01:16:26

He said, you've got to come now. I said, when I get there, he'll be all right. By the time I get there, he'll be fine. Don't worry about it.

01:16:32

He'll be fine by the time I get there. So I got in my car, I talked to the secretary in a few minutes and then

01:16:37

I got in the car and I drove on over and I didn't roll the wheel, flying down the road and dodging the police and trying to miss the traps and so forth.

01:16:43

I just took my time. I mean, I wasn't casual. I wasn't trying to prove a point. I just drove over and I got there.

01:16:49

I walked in, the pastor's sitting behind the desk. You hear the boy sits and here's his wife sitting. Huge fellow, his shirt's just hanging in shreds and he's sitting there just as calm as you and I sitting here.

01:17:01

The pastor said, Rocky, this is Mr. So -and -so and this is Miss So -and -so. He got his books and everything up and off he went, closed the door and here

01:17:07

I am. And I've got him looking at me. But I knew that they would be normal because the problems that they were dealing with were familiar to us but what

01:17:17

I'm saying to you is that people do all sorts of things when they come to you and don't think that everyone's gonna be sedated when they sit out in front of you.

01:17:24

It depends upon the difficulty. It depends upon the difficulty. Now, it's nice to get all the sweet ones and all those who want to do everything you say but there are some people who just don't and there are others who can't.

01:17:36

So I believe personally that talking is thinking. So there are four ways that I believe talking helps you in counseling with a person.

01:17:45

Talking is thinking. Talking is thinking. It's sifting through ideas.

01:17:51

It is sifting through feelings. It's dealing with emotions when you let a person talk to you.

01:17:58

To put our feelings into words is extremely important so we allow them to put their feelings into words.

01:18:04

Tell me how you feel in your own words and to me, as best I understand it, it is virtually impossible.

01:18:13

It is virtually impossible for a person to think without words.

01:18:24

A person has to, I mean, if you don't know words, you're not gonna think. It's just that simple. So then also, talking is clarifying.

01:18:31

It allows things to come into a sharper focus. I pretty well know what they're talking to me about. You know what they're talking to you about.

01:18:38

I mean, you know when people come to you? Many times you recognize their difficulty.

01:18:43

You know exactly where they're going in their conversation before they ever get there. But talking will bring what they're trying to say to you in a sharper focus and it helps us define what we really think.

01:18:56

It gives them the opportunity to define to you and to clarify to you just exactly what they're trying to say and you now don't have to assume.

01:19:03

And then also, talking is release. It is release. Through discussion, people can get rid of those pent up emotions and poisonous feelings.

01:19:14

The bitterness that is in the hearts and lives of even Christian people is unbelievable.

01:19:21

There are sweet Christian people that will come to you and as you begin to talk to them, you find that some offense occurred in the church 20 years ago.

01:19:28

I had a lady in a meeting who came to me and I was not dealing with counseling. I was there. We were dealing, I believe at that time, on the

01:19:34

Christian life. We have a conference we deal on the Christian living in the tabernacle and we were dealing with this problem and we came out some areas in there and this lady came to me and she said,

01:19:44

I want you to know something. She said, I am the church librarian. And she said, I want you to know that they're taking my job away from me.

01:19:51

They're not gonna let me be librarian next year. And I said, ma 'am, that is not in my realm of authority or responsibility.

01:19:58

You need to go speak to the pastor about it. I've told him. And I said, yes, ma 'am. She said, yes.

01:20:05

Now I found out later that she hadn't kept the hours that the church had designated to keep it open.

01:20:10

She wasn't faithful. She wasn't there half the time and they weren't taking her job. The committees of the church had nominated someone else to do the job and were gonna give someone else, they felt would do a better job anyway, but give them responsibility.

01:20:21

And that lady told me, she said, I'll tell you one thing. If they take that away from me, I'll never come back to this church again.

01:20:28

I said, thank God. She said, what? I said, thank the Lord. With that kind of an attitude, lady, you quench the spirit of time, you come in anyway.

01:20:38

You don't need to be there until you're willing to be open to the Lord. Because Satan will use that to quench the spirit and the whole thing.

01:20:46

It doesn't take but one Christian to quench the spirit of God in a fellowship. One. Less people can never quench or grieve the

01:20:53

Holy Spirit. They cannot. They can resist Him, but they cannot grieve or quench Him. Only Christians do that.

01:21:00

And so, bitterness wells up in the lives of people. But if you let them talk about it, in a person -to -person relationship, it is a release to them.

01:21:10

And then, talking is therapy. It is therapy. Have you ever had your wife come to your men?

01:21:17

I'll just use the men as an example. You know, wives come to their husband, and they'll say, I want to tell you something.

01:21:24

You say, well, what's it about? And they'll say, well, you know, I want to tell you about this, this, this. You say, oh, you already told me about that.

01:21:30

You told me that a month ago. But you see, women live in details. Men speak very generally, but men think they live in details, but men speak very generally.

01:21:40

Women deal with details. Now, if you listen to her story, she'll add something to it that you didn't know. She's got a detail that's come to her about that story.

01:21:48

The story will be exactly the same, except there'll be one little phrase or clause in there. But you know what we men say, ah, we've heard that.

01:21:54

You know, the same old story. These women get together, and they talk about the same thing all the time. Yeah, they do, but they're little details they throw in there each time that makes it a little different to them.

01:22:04

And so, you and I can understand readily that talking is therapy, and it helps someone to just have another listen to them.

01:22:12

It just does. And so, we need to listen to people. And good adjustments can be made with a person after they've talked to you about a problem, or after they've shared their feelings with you.

01:22:24

So, what we try to do is we allow them opportunity and time of confession.

01:22:30

We let them confess what's on their heart and life. And when a person's feelings are, have you ever heard this?

01:22:36

I use this in my marriage. We do marriage seminars for a week and cover about 22 topics. I say, how many of you have a perfect marriage?

01:22:44

Now, it is amazing. You would think no one would ever raise their hand. But I'll promise you, you get a good group of people in a church, you'll see some dears sing, here it goes.

01:22:54

I ask this question, how many of you have never had an argument since you've been married?

01:23:00

And boy, we never argued. That sounds so noble and wonderful, but I say that if you've never had an argument, then you have a crushed personality in your household.

01:23:10

You have one that is so totally suppressed because when you put two personalities together, you are going to have a conflict sooner or later.

01:23:18

Now, you just think, here's a husband, here's a wife. What do you have? You have two interpersonal relationships. He's got to get along with her, she's got to get along with him, add a child.

01:23:27

He's got to get along with that kid, he's got to get along with that wife. That wife's got to get along with him, she's got to get along with the kid, add another one.

01:23:33

You had three children, a husband and a wife, and put the grandparents in there. You look at the interpersonal relationships you've got and each one has to get along with the other.

01:23:41

You throw the in -laws in there and it is infinite of the number of people that's got to get along with each other.

01:23:46

And you're going to tell me this, we have no disagreements in our home. Then it is either our

01:23:51

Gestapo headquarters or it is the chain gang are quickly becoming that because there's going to be conflicts.

01:23:58

There's no difficulty in disagreements, are there? It's what we do with those disagreements. Sin is not a failure.

01:24:09

It becomes a failure when I don't learn from that sin, when I don't learn from it.

01:24:15

If I continually keep that, then it becomes a failure in my life. So we let a person just open up their hearts and get that nervousness out and get that anxiety out and the confession brings relief.

01:24:28

Just to be able to tell someone, they say, boy, I just don't feel like I'm carrying it alone anymore. I've just been wanting to tell somebody about this.

01:24:36

And I'm grateful you're here. And it just lets them release those pent up emotions and the tension dissipates.

01:24:42

But now in doing this, it is very easy for you and me, any person to gain negative attitudes.

01:24:48

Negative attitudes. And I can tell you that I can identify with them because there is no negative attitude that I have not had at one time or other in counseling with people.

01:24:58

It's so easy to do. Each person has their own set of difficulties and their own character flaws.

01:25:05

You and I, all people are unique. We say identical twins. There is no such thing as an identical twin in the true sense of the word.

01:25:13

They are similar in many ways, but there's no such thing as an identical twin.

01:25:19

God forbid that there should be two of me running around on the planet Earth. I mean, you know, the

01:25:25

Lord has enough difficulty with one of me to be the sheriff in his grove. I have in the United States stirred up enough. If I come to Canada and develop a clone up here, we'd all be in trouble.

01:25:35

But each person has their own character flaws that they need to remove. So a person who has a religious background may find themselves experiencing tensions that someone else may say, it's uncalled for for you to have that in your life.

01:25:48

You don't need that. Well, it's uncalled for you to tell me you feel like that, but it's absurd. You don't really feel that way.

01:25:54

You just think you feel that way. And then we begin to deal with them on that basis, and it creates a negative attitude because we can misread these things and have an attitude of superiority.

01:26:04

Now, I don't want anyone to be like me, but it really wouldn't hurt them. I mean, you know, if they were,

01:26:10

I mean, I really don't. I want them to be like Jesus, but, well, if I'm the best guy they got,

01:26:16

I mean, they could do worse, couldn't they? I mean, sure. But I can get this attitude of superiority and they'll eat it.

01:26:23

It's unbelievable to me how people who are not even Christians know nothing about the Bible, but you know they know what a