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Well, hello everybody to The Apologetic Dog.
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This is an apologetics ministry where you can probably see 1 Timothy 6 .20 in The
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That's telling us that we're to guard the gospel deposit that's been entrusted to us.
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And so that's my harsh desire here at The Apologetic Dog.
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And as we understand that this applies to all Christians, we're all equally supposed to be contending
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We war against pagan philosophy and we expose contradictions that falsely call themselves
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I just wanna invite you, please subscribe and like the content.
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That actually helps these videos circulate more on YouTube as you share them, as you like them.
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And so we love this ministry and so we thank you for your support.
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I also serve as an elder and pastor at 12 .5 Church.
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I wanna encourage you, if you wanna check out our teaching series or our preaching series, please visit our church website.
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And so that being said, I have an announcement that I'd like to inform you all of.
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I had the pleasure with my friend Trey Fisher, we were able to go on Cultish and we were able to
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talk about the Church of Christ examining them.
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We actually believe that they're a cult that can be traced all the way back to Alexander Campbell in the restoration
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And so this episode will air somewhere towards mid January.
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So I just wanna let you know and to be on the lookout for that episode.
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And so with that being said, this is a very special episode because recently I was in a
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debate against a Lutheran.
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And so I have a very good friend of mine here with me today, Adam Carmichael.
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Thank you for allowing me to be on here just to have a discussion about your debate.
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Well, last time we were talking about your debate.
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So I thought, man, I gotta have Adam back on so we can do all this all over again.
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And when I walked in today, did I look a little bit different?
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Yeah, you kinda took down party to reform beard there.
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So I mean, the prerequisite to being reformed.
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I'm a little bit less reformed today.
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And Pastor Nathan, he's hiding back there behind all the tech stuff, said that I was really more like the apologetic puppy.
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Thanks for that, Pastor Nathan.
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So thank you for being on.
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You actually were able to watch the debate live.
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So what were some of your initial thoughts about how the exchange went with Mark and myself on Donnie's channel?
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Well, I just wanna say thank you to Donnie because Standing for Truth is a really good
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apologetics website to be able to go on there and watch different debates of different platforms
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So I was really loving going on there and watching that.
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And to see you and Mark, I also wanna thank Mark because he done really
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honorable the way he spoke and the way he kinda communed with you.
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Sure, we don't necessarily agree with everything that he said.
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There are some distinctions there, but Mark done really well in the debate.
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So we're not here to critique him necessarily, but there are some things that he didn't say that
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lined up with scripture the way we would understand according to the grammatical historical.
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Yeah, I'm glad you brought the grammatical historical because he mentioned that.
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And I thought, yes, that's what we both should be contending for.
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And so in this debate review, there's a number of points.
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There's about five different topics that I'd like to touch on because hopefully we can bring some
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clarity to some of the things that he said.
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And cause I think he was super respectful.
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I enjoyed the whole debate.
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And I also wanna talk about some of the highlights within the debate that I just wanna let people know, this is the main distinction
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with Lutherans and Reformed Baptists.
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And I wanna talk about some of the things that are perhaps inconsistent with Lutheran doctrine.
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So with that being said, Pastor Nathan, if you would, please queue up this first
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I really wanna emphasize that that Jeremiah focused mainly
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But in my opening statement, I gave almost 10 passages dealing
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Of course, I can't expect him to deal with all of them at once, but the doctrine of
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baptism doesn't hang or fall on Acts 2 .38.
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Not that I think he gave a really good
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explanation for why we should depart from the plain sense of the words, but
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he's going to have to deal with all of these other texts that I provided.
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And in fact, what he's gonna have to do is to really find ways to get around saying
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what the texts actually plainly say in order to prove his
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idea that baptism is merely a demonstration for those who have faith in Christ.
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Thank you for that, Mark.
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He said a number of things there, Adam.
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I wanna cover, and like I said, I think Mark's a super awesome guy.
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So I enjoyed this exchange that we've had and continue to get to do.
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But he kept talking about, Jeremiah's gonna have to talk around the plain meaning of the text.
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And I think this is actually a form of begging the question.
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I think we're both saying that it's plain.
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Words have meaning in their context and we're holding to this grammatical historical.
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And so when he says that, I think he's just begging the question.
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He's already assuming his position.
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And I'm over here saying we both have a burden of proof.
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So do you wanna speak to the grammatical historical method, how that's really important for this conversation?
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Yeah, I like how he was just trying to say the plain meaning of the words.
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And so he's just saying that, okay, let's just look at what the word means out of its context, because
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I hate saying church of Christ while we're in this discussion, but they hold the same thing where we see one word and
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apply the same definition throughout all of this text.
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So the plain meaning is good, but what about the context?
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It always goes back to context.
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And so the grammatical historical method of interpretation basically just says words have meaning
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in the context in which they were meant to be expressed.
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And so there's kind of two approaches to this that are so important.
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You look to the lexical usage of a word, which shows the semantic domain of many
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And then you look to the immediate context.
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And then you'd see how that fits with the canonical context of all the scripture.
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We're Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura, right?
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We look to scripture alone and we look to all of scripture.
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And so something else he said in this passage was, you know, Jeremiah spent so much time in his opening statement with
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Acts 2 .38 to kind of go against water baptism being for the forgiveness of sins.
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And what's interesting when he says that is I was actually starting with Acts 2 .38, going all the way to
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verse 41 to show the nature of the new covenant and of how this passage is actually normative
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And my big point was that infants can't confess Jesus as Lord, they can't receive the word
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And so that was my whole point.
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Yeah, I talked about Acts 2 .38 briefly to show how it fits in the context.
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And so I think that was something Mark was not prepared for is to kind of defend why infants should be
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baptized on the Lutheran's view, because that was my main point here in Acts 2 .38.
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What'd you think when you first heard that exchange going on?
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I thought it was a pretty good exchange, but like I said, he suffers from,
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he's bringing in presupposition of Lutheranism.
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So I mean, he's taught this, okay, well, babies can be baptized into the new covenant and things like that.
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And I know you're gonna hit more on that later as we move along.
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But man, I'm just thankful that I don't have this false presupposition because I was 39
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years old before God called me to himself.
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So I didn't have the hiccups that you see with other people bringing in their presuppositions.
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And let me say this, we all bring presuppositions to the table.
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We just have to examine those presuppositions and see which are biblical and which aren't.
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And some are transcendental, like we can't help but bringing the grammatical historical method to
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exegeting scripture because it's inescapable.
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Words always have meaning in the context in which they are meant for, right?
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And so I believe kind of a word that captures this is prolegomena.
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There are first things that you must bring.
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And I'm glad in the debate, Mark was talking about the grammatical historical method.
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But he's assuming his tradition in there and saying, you have the burden of proof to prove yours.
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I'm over here saying, yeah, I plan to prove mine.
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And you also have to vindicate and defend yours.
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You can't just say, well, it's so, it means what it means, it says what it says and it means what it means because we know
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we deal with those people all the time.
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They have a burden of proof as well.
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So I thought it would be good, Pastor Nathan, if we actually read these verses, because
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my whole point in my opening statement was, if we're gonna appeal to anything in the book of Acts, we need to be able
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to say and show how it is normative for the church today.
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And the way you do that is you eventually have to get outside the book of Acts.
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And for me proving the nature of the new covenant, I went to the book of Hebrews, which we'll get into later.
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So let me read this passage and show how I was really making a case how infants
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don't fit within this paradigm.
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I wasn't making a big case for the phrase for the forgiveness of sins, but let me read this.
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Acts 2 38, Peter said to them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
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for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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This is where I continued on reading in my opening statement.
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For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the
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With many other words, Peter bore witness and continued to exhort them saying, save yourselves from this crooked generation.
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And this was so key in my argument, Adam, verse 41.
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So those who received his word were baptized and there were added that day about 3000
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I was making the case that the promise for you and your children is a
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That's a phrase that the Jews take very internally to mean, yeah, everything that's being promised to me
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has to fit with the inheritance and the land promises.
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And then what Peter is saying, yeah, you deserve the cursions of God, but there's still hope in Jesus.
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Repent, be baptized, demonstrate that faith.
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And this is for you and your children, Jews.
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And then he goes in the next thing and he says, for those who are far off.
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Well, that's a phrase for Gentiles.
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And he's basically making a gospel proclamation for all men, whether you're a Jew or whether you're a Greek.
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And then the last phrase he says, for whoever or everyone that the Lord calls to himself.
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And that's what he was getting at.
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Yeah, do you have any other thoughts on that?
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I was real intrigued when Dr. Watt come and he kind of went through Acts 2 .38.
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He brought clarity to it, but like I said, you really kind of highlighted more clearly that it
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wasn't that they were saved because of baptism.
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It was just something to express and show that they were cut to the heart.
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Yes, because it's a Jewish context.
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And that's why we can make sense.
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And the promise is for you and your children.
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And Dr. Watt did bring that up beautifully, I thought.
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And so as we carry this train of thought, we remind people.
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So for you and your children is not just an immediate assumption of, well, we're gonna apply baptism to our infants.
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That's not what Peter was talking about.
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Because the argument is, well, the children, let's go back up into Acts 2 .38 and hey, the promise is
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And it's like, well, the promise is the Holy Spirit.
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The promise is salvation.
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And why stop at baptism right before repent?
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And so even their own standard of trying to interpret it that way falls short.
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And Mark misunderstood my whole point with saying this passage, which we ground in the nature
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of the new covenant from the book of Hebrews, excludes those like infants who cannot confess Jesus as Lord.
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And so that's why I wanted to bring up when he said the plain meaning of
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Acts, especially you have to prove your case, right?
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Because not only does he have a burden of proof there, but that didn't even really go with the
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point that I was making of saying, clearly no children were in this Jewish context.
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And then I was trying to say, this will help us understand the household baptisms later on.
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Yeah, so I'm glad that we were able to touch on that.
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And so another important verse, remember in the clip that we just played, Mark was just like,
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my whole case doesn't rest on Acts 2 .38.
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And I'm over here like, good, because I could talk for days on Acts 2 .38, but let's
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go other places, you know what I mean?
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And so one of the places that I was so glad that he talked to me about was 1
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And he asked, and we're about to play the clip here in a moment, but he was just like, what are the contextual clues?
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And I think a lot of people that do have their tradition at the forefront of their mind, as we're about to get into what
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this verse talks about, really catches people off guard.
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So Pastor Nathan, will you please roll that second clip we have?
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1 Peter 3, you said, that
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was not talking about water baptism, is that right?
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So what is the contextual clue that leads you to that conclusion?
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I liked how he said, he says, what's the contextual clue?
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And I remember when he asked me, I'm like, there's so many.
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Like, thank you for giving me this opportunity to answer this question.
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Cause really, in order to understand baptism now saves you,
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you have to understand what comes right before it and what comes right after it, right?
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So if you would, do you mind to just read both of those verses and then we'll really get into what Peter's talking
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1 Peter 3 .20, because they formerly did not obey when God's patients waited
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in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight persons,
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were brought safely through water.
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Baptism, which corresponds to this, those are good words to hold on to, now saves you,
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not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the
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resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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I wanna encourage people also, I talked with a Church of Christ individual
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on his program for about, I don't know, it was less than an hour, but maybe 45 minutes on this verse.
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And I could tell as I was explaining this, there was zero pushback.
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And my point is I can tell once we really start delving into the context and developing it out, a lot of people are
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like, I don't know what to do with this.
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This is the first time that I've heard someone say, well, baptism here, I know water is in the verse before,
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and then the assumption is this must be talking in some sense about our water baptism.
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So what are some of the contexts that really informed us how we can understand verse 21?
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Well, verse 21, we're looking at there at the end of, I believe it's antitypis, it's an
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So some would look at the water, but man, typologies are always going from the lesser to the
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So let me pause you, because you make a really good point, because I think the King James renders it differently.
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There's an antitype, I can't remember exactly how it says, but in the ESV, it says baptism, which
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So there is a antipos, there is a antitype going on.
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And so tell us what is salvific in verse 20?
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What is the type that we should be holding on to here?
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All right, so I kind of did a little study and research to bring it up.
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When we're looking at the ark, the typology that we see Peter is saying here is
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pointing to Jesus to being the ark.
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Typologies, like I said, work from the lesser to the greater.
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Typologies point out the reason for its usage.
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There are two events that I want to look at.
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Of course, one is Noah and the ark that he built because of this passage in 1 Peter.
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The other is Moses, when his mother put him in a basket by the Nile.
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Those are some, the texts are Genesis 6 .14, when it says, make yourself an ark.
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Taba, which is the Hebrew of gopher wood, make room in the ark, cover it inside and out
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And that word's a good one to look at.
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We'll get to that one in a second.
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And then the next text is Exodus 2 .3.
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And this is talking about Moses.
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So then she could hide him no longer.
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She took him in a basket.
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Taba, which is a Hebrew word for it, made of bulrush and
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It is with bitumen and pitch, which is kopher again.
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She put the child in it and placed him among the reeds of the riverbank.
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So I want to look at the, there are two arks here, Genesis 6 .14 and Exodus 2 .3.
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They were covered with pitch.
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As we see in these texts, Noah's ark and Moses' basket or ark.
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The ark was their refuge.
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As we see in Psalms 46 .1, the Lord is our refuge.
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And 91 .2, a home, Psalm 90, verse one.
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And a temple, Exodus 25, verse eight.
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Places of God's providence, provision, protection and presence.
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As we see that word pitch in Hebrew is kopher.
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It's a waterproof type of glue substance.
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It's covering, assisted in protecting the people aboard both the ark by keeping the
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So this is interesting to note because the word for pitch is also translated
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atonement in Leviticus 17 .11.
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I want to do a brief recap because I love what you're doing.
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So you've highlighted how the ark is a picture of Jesus.
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We're really going to tie this together how the baptism now saves you as being in the ark of Christ.
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And so we really see this brought out in verse 20.
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And then I love what you're doing.
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You're saying if you're familiar at all with your Old Testament, then there's so many more context clues
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that points to the ark as a type of Christ.
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So what I encourage people, like even in my debate with Mark, I just said in verse 20, keep
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So while the ark, Noah, while the ark was being prepared, so we have an ark in which a few, that is eight
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persons, so that's Noah and his family.
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That's the other thing to keep in mind.
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And number three, we're brought safely through water.
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So when you have those three things in mind, you already alluded to this.
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Water is not salvific in this context, right?
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It's actually an instrument of judgment that God used on the entire world minus eight souls.
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I think where some of the confusion comes in is where the King James says there were eight souls that were saved by
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And in other places I've said, yeah, that is fine.
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Like that phraseology is fine, but a lot of times the King James is not as precise as
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That's why a lot of these other good word for word translations has nuanced it.
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It's still the same Greek, still the same understanding, but when you have the story of Noah in mind, that's really
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gonna help you interpret what's being said because when the King James says that the eight souls were saved by
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water, well, we understand save has a semantic domain, right?
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They were preserved through the water.
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Whereas the ESV says they were brought safely through water, right?
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In spite of the water, because it was a means of judgment.
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What saved Noah and his family?
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Obviously God using the ark that saved them.
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And so that should already be setting the typology going on in our mind, right?
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And so as we go into verse 21, we have baptism.
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Now, Adam, I've talked with some people that says, baptism is so
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clear, it just means immersion.
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So why are you trying to make this not a wet immersion when clearly it's already talking
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about water in the context, right?
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Have you ever had those types of encounters with people?
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What's a good immediate response that we could say?
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Well, the first would be, it's not the removal of dirt and filth from the body.
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So that's so key because when Mark says what contextual clue, we developed the
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But it's almost like read right after you read baptism that now saves you, not as
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a removal of dirt from the body.
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So what's interesting is Mark will say, the plain sense and meaning of the word.
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But you know what they say when they look at that?
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Well, it's so much more than just water.
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And I'm like, wait, so we're gonna abandon the normal sense of the word.
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I mean, he's literally saying, not the thing that removes dirt from the body, which would be a ceremonial bath,
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And so it's funny when I could almost tongue in cheek when people say, so you don't see water baptism at all in 1
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Oh yeah, it's just not the thing that Peter is talking about.
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It's not the removal of dirt from the body.
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So yeah, it's there, but not in the way that you think it is.
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Continuing to develop context, because when he asked for kind of like one contextual clue, I'm like, no, there's about seven or eight.
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And I love what you did because when you go to the Old Testament, you just see how pitch as it relates to the ark carries
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so much greater implications, right?
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And along with the gopher wood.
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I want you to repeat what you were saying because you said there's some extension of pitch and gopher
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wood kind of getting into the atonement.
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So in a brief way, how do we connect the gopher wood and pitch or just one of those to atonement?
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Yeah, pitch, that word there, pitch, is kephor, and that's the same word pitch that
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he used in Leviticus 17, 11 for atonement.
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So we see that covering, that's what protected Moses when he was in the basket.
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It's the same thing with Noah and the ark.
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That's what protected them and kept them in Christ, I would say,
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because God was on the inside with them.
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So it's a beautiful picture.
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It's a beautiful picture because the Old Testament is starting to set the stage how the ark is a picture of a
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And so one of the last context clues here in 1 Peter 3, 21 of saying the baptism
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is not referring to your water baptism.
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It's really talking about an appeal of your faith being in Christ.
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That's what's gonna give you a clear conscience, a clean conscience.
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And so what I tell people is, Peter kinda already dealt with this earlier in the context.
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So if you would, look with me at verse 15 and 16.
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And so there, one of our favorite verses, 1 Peter 3, 15, Peter says, but in your hearts,
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honor Christ, the Lord is holy, always being prepared to make a defense for anyone that
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asks for you a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect.
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And then he says, having a good conscience.
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And so he kinda gives a working definition of what it means to have a good conscience.
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He's saying, honor Christ, sanctify the Lord in your heart.
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Well, he's talking about trust in him, have faith in Christ.
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That's the appeal to God that will give you a clear conscience.
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And that's how Peter goes on to say here, through the resurrection of Christ Jesus,
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he is the ark that saves us from the wrath that is to come.
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And I just noticed when you explain these things to people, usually it's like, I'm not prepared to
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handle this in -depth look at the context.
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And I would argue the plain meaning of the text, the plain meaning, because you look at what
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baptism means, there's a semantic domain.
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Well, it always means immersion, but into what context?
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And so I actually wanna take a moment to kind of let people know, baptism does not always mean into a wet
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You have to let context inform you how baptism's being used.
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So we've talked about this on a number of occasions.
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You have baptizo, that's probably one of the most common usages of baptism.
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You have baptize a, right?
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It's not identical, but they are related.
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And then another really interesting one that comes out in Colossians 2 that we talked about on our last debate review, but it's baptize mas.
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In the plural, that's really pointing back to a Jewish understanding of ceremonial washings.
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And so there's different definitions, but you know something that binds them all together?
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Because you could be immersed into a dry context.
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And so, for example, you can be immersed into one's authority.
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You can be immersed in a context of suffering.
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Well, those aren't wet context, right?
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But there is the context that we're all talking about here.
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You can be immersed in your water baptism.
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And we would say fully immersed, you know what I mean?
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And so I was talking to Mark after the debate, and I say talking to him, we were just sending messages.
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And I asked him, I said, what do you think the worst point that I made?
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And he says, I did not like your argument that you were taking water out of baptism in the epistles.
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So obviously he was thinking of 1 Peter 3 .21, which we kind of looked at, right?
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And then he doesn't like it, how we do it in Romans 6, 3 and 4 and Galatians 3 .27.
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And so I wanna let Mark know that I don't believe every baptism in the epistles
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takes the water out, but for one, there's a semantic domain.
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There's different definitions for baptism.
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So you have to demonstrate from the context how we're supposed to understand this word.
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And so there's actually an example, and we don't have to pull this up, but in 1
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Corinthians 1 .16, clearly Paul is talking about a water baptism.
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He talks about in the household of Stephanas, there was a baptism that's going on.
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Well, that makes us think back to Acts and the household water baptism.
27:20
And Paul is just saying, I'm glad I didn't baptize any one of you.
27:22
I came to preach the gospel.
27:24
So he's actually making a distinction between preaching the gospel, the good news of how people get saved
27:31
But point is, that's a time in the epistle where water baptism, how do I know that?
27:37
And then I would press Mark if we got into this.
27:41
I say, continue reading in the same letter.
27:42
I think it's 1 Corinthians 10 .2.
27:45
Paul's talking about the Israelites were baptized into Moses.
27:50
Well, they weren't baptized into water because God literally parted the sea for them to walk through, not to be immersed in
27:57
And so that demonstrates that you are being baptized into the authority of something.
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And I'm saying, that's what Paul primarily means in like Romans 6 and Galatians 3,
28:08
along with the surrounding context.
28:09
You are immersed into who Christ is.
28:11
That's what Peter's talking about here in 1 Peter 3 .21.
28:14
And the last reference I just want to mention in 1 Corinthians is 15 .29.
28:19
That talks about a baptism for the dead.
28:23
Well, good luck trying to make that about water baptism because that has to fit within the context of
28:29
1 Corinthians 15, which is talking about faith in the resurrection.
28:33
So, do you want to speak to that?
28:36
What would you say to someone that says, well, that's a no -no.
28:39
We shouldn't be taking water out of the baptism versus in the epistles.
28:44
That could be dangerous because context has always got to be the negotiator of
28:50
whether water is applied.
28:53
And the meaning is so plain.
28:54
You have to go around the plain meaning of the word to do that.
28:58
Well, I enjoy having the plain meaning of the word, but the plain meaning of the word without the
29:04
So, you're going to make me study this with you and you're going to tell me verses before and after what's being used.
29:09
That's how you get context.
29:11
If you're not getting context, then you don't really care about where your soul goes.
29:16
I mean, because that's what it boils down to is people got this dumb saying where all
29:22
that's in this life is death and pay taxes, but that's wrong.
29:26
It's death and eternal life.
29:28
So, we're trying to make sure people are properly equipped to know where their soul is going.
29:34
And if you ain't with studying God's word, then you've already told us where you don't care.
29:39
I don't know which camera to look at, but amen.
29:43
But what we're highlighting is the grammatical historical method of interpretation is preeminent.
29:48
So, we all should be saying that's what we want to do, but you have to get into the lexical understandings of
29:54
definitions of any particular word like baptism.
29:57
And we know that it's not going to entail wet immersion every time.
30:01
We're saying context is the thing that determines that.
30:05
And so, something that I can tell people are disappointed, like with Galatians 3, 27, or
30:10
Romans 6, 3 and 4, Paul is writing to believers who have already been baptized.
30:17
And that in 1 Corinthians 1, 16 that I was referencing earlier, that shows
30:22
exactly the household of Stephanas.
30:24
Believers already been baptized and Paul's making a point in light of that.
30:29
In Romans, he's making that case to Roman Christians.
30:32
And so, the context with Romans 6 is talking about you died with Christ.
30:37
Well, that's a spiritual reality, right?
30:39
That didn't happen physically, right?
30:41
And that's important because by faith, we have been united, immersed into Christ.
30:47
Paul, I don't know, spent five chapters making that case right before.
30:51
And so, that's what rings true.
30:54
And before we move on to the next clip, tell me about Galatians 3, 27 because Paul uses a
31:00
similar understanding about, well, as many of you that have put on Christ,
31:06
you have been now baptized into Christ.
31:08
Because when we go to that context, right?
31:11
He's already talked about how did you receive the Spirit?
31:14
Was it by hearing of the word or was it by obeying the law?
31:19
So, tell us how that works in the context of Galatians 3, 27.
31:26
It says, for as many of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
31:34
The way that works is when we look at the water baptism, that's a picture.
31:40
And I love saying it in a way to kind of poke at the Church of Christ.
31:45
So, the Holy Spirit is kind of engrafted in watercolors.
31:48
He's painting a beautiful picture of the already finished work that he's done.
31:54
You gotta speak with the Bible.
31:56
When we hear that, but then it's just, we cycle back into grammatical, historical method of interpretation.
32:03
We've heard that acronym before.
32:04
No, words have meaning in the context, the ancient context in which it was written.
32:09
And so, like you said, it's painting a beautiful picture.
32:12
Like, I'll say it with you.
32:13
Like, that's what Paul's getting at.
32:15
Two believers who were already baptized.
32:18
And before we get into verse two, like, I know that you love talking about that.
32:23
But even the verse right before, for in Christ Jesus, you are all sons of God through baptism.
32:34
He's talking about you're baptized in Christ, meaning you're immersed into him, his authority, his resurrection
32:40
becomes your resurrection by faith.
32:43
So, why is three, two so important as well?
32:46
It's saying how we received.
32:49
And it doesn't have, like you said, baptism is not there.
32:52
This is not by works of the law, but by hearing.
32:56
And I believe that's the same context Paul's talking about in Romans 10, 17.
33:00
That's how we've got our faith.
33:03
So, I mean, it's clear that the Holy Spirit's the one that does that work.
33:09
This is a good segue to the next clip because something within Lutheran's doctrine of baptism
33:16
is they teach a baptismal regeneration.
33:19
So, we've already been touching on the nature of the covenant, which we'll continue to get into in Hebrews later, but it's for those that
33:26
And so, earlier, my argument was this excludes infants.
33:30
You can even look to the phrase, and you can call it the plain meaning of the phrase, all you want, but you have a burden
33:36
to prove when you read the promises for you and your children.
33:39
Well, keep reading, you know, right?
33:41
And so, I spent a long time talking about that because that's a relevant issue that a lot of people are familiar with,
33:48
I'm so glad Mark talked about how baptism is a visible word of God.
33:54
I didn't have any dispute with that, right?
33:56
I care more about the implications of where they're gonna continue to carry that.
33:59
So, I spent a long time on infant baptism, and this leads us to
34:05
baptismal regeneration, okay?
34:08
And so, after the debate, somebody wasn't too happy with me because he said, oh, Jeremiah's changing the
34:15
topic of the debate, moving from baptism to soteriology.
34:19
And I wanna say, wait a second, because this guy was Lutheran.
34:21
I'm like, y 'all believe in baptismal regeneration.
34:25
So, the fact that I wanna talk about regeneration has very much to do with the Lutheran doctrine of baptism.
34:31
So, naturally, remember Mark in his opening clip was like, oh, Jeremiah didn't deal with a lot of verses, you know, in
34:38
Well, you know, I had a mission to accomplish.
34:40
So, we're gonna do a little bit more of that now.
34:43
Let's talk about John chapter three.
34:45
John three, five is really important.
34:46
In fact, Nathan, will you roll that next clip for us?
34:53
Are you talking about water baptism?
34:56
Is it talking about baptism in any sense?
35:01
What baptism is it talking about?
35:03
Okay, so here's the context.
35:05
I think Nicodemus has on his mind earthly categories of being born in an earthly
35:11
sense, and I think he would have in mind the water baptism of John.
35:15
And I think Jesus is given that slight rebuke saying, hey, you're a ruler of Israel.
35:20
You don't know what your own scriptures, the Hebrew scriptures actually teach about spiritual realities.
35:26
So, baptism is relevant as we see it come out later in verse 22 where Jesus and his disciples were
35:32
baptizing where water was plentiful, but they got into disputes with Jews over
35:39
Right, so there's a rich history of what that means.
35:41
And so, yes, Nicodemus was thinking earthly and Jesus was trying to get him to think heavenly.
35:49
I liked hearing that again.
35:51
Because when we're talking about regeneration, you have to talk about at least two passages, John chapter three,
35:57
verse five, because it says water and we got it, you know, why are you taking the water out?
36:02
And then you got to talk about Titus three, five.
36:04
And there's other related verses to regeneration, but these kind of surface to the top.
36:10
And so, I do want to touch on this again.
36:12
I want to get your any initial thoughts.
36:14
So, we have to talk about John three.
36:18
And you notice the two type of questions he asked me.
36:20
He goes, okay, in John three, is Jesus, it was his implication, talking about water baptism?
36:27
And then he said, is baptism being talked about in any sense?
36:31
And I could almost see it.
36:32
He was just like, how does that work, basically?
36:36
So, how do we approach this situation?
36:38
Like you said, we're talking to Nicodemus who should know the law, but Jesus is coming from
36:44
perspective of John's baptism because John was the one that was preparing the way
36:51
So, when we get to where Nicodemus is, I was a little troubled when I
36:58
He's like, ma 'am, how am I going to be born again?
37:02
Do I go into my mother's room a second time?
37:04
And that's where Jesus kind of really hit him down.
37:07
And he's like, no, I'm not even talking about these natural things.
37:10
I'm talking about spiritual things, things that you should already know because you're a teacher of the law.
37:15
So, if he's a teacher of the law, then where do we go to find what he's
37:21
trying to get Nicodemus to already know?
37:23
Is it okay if I disagree?
37:25
I think it's with Matt Slick.
37:26
He held the view that Jesus was talking about, you got to be born earthly and then you have to be born again,
37:32
heavenly, something like that.
37:35
And I don't think that's the view that's being talked about, but I do think it's orthodox, you know what I mean?
37:40
The reason why I don't think that though, is because Jesus is using such striking imagery of
37:47
And for someone to say that that is not what Jesus has in mind, then they have to
37:54
Jesus is actually holding Nicodemus accountable to something he should already know.
38:00
Verse 10, Jesus answered Nicodemus, are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not
38:07
So what knowledge is Jesus holding Nicodemus accountable to?
38:10
Well, it'd be something that had already been revealed in the Hebrew scriptures.
38:14
And we already have too much sauce, too much context of John chapter one, 12
38:21
The reason why some received Jesus is not the will of man, but is of God.
38:26
And so when you look into the word born again, doesn't it mean to be literally born from above?
38:32
Well, this directly echoes Ezekiel 36 language where God says, I will cause
38:38
you to walk in my statutes.
38:39
I will cleanse you by my spirit.
38:42
I will take out that heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
38:50
Like people can just disagree.
38:51
And I'm gonna say the meaning is too plain for me.
38:55
Like we're gonna play that game a little bit of just saying, I'm not convinced because of the clear and plain meaning of the text.
39:01
But the point is you have to be able to develop what that actually looks like.
39:07
And so here's the objection I get, Adam, is you want the spirit to stay there, but Jesus says
39:13
you must be born of the water and the spirit.
39:15
So how do you take water out of that statement?
39:18
And I just say, look, he's already talking about being born again, born from above.
39:22
Then he makes the statement that you must be born of water and the spirit.
39:26
And then verse eight, he says, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit.
39:30
So the water is being qualified by the spirit.
39:32
He says the same thing three different times.
39:35
And so Ezekiel 36 is talking about a spiritual cleansing.
39:41
That's what he's talking about here with the water and the spirit.
39:43
The Holy Spirit is going to cleanse you, right?
39:46
Bring you to newness of life, to be born again from being dead, right?
39:52
That's what Ephesians chapter two.
39:56
I was talking with brother Keith one day that just about how, but God.
40:00
But God being rich in mercy, lavishing us with his love.
40:05
And we are saved by his grace.
40:07
And so you got the famous, but God statement, right?
40:10
That's what Jesus is talking about here.
40:12
So this is a spiritual cleansing.
40:14
And so water is meant to teach us a heavenly truth.
40:19
But it's so funny because I found people being like Nicodemus.
40:21
No, no, no, he's talking about water, right?
40:23
We're talking about these earthly categories.
40:25
And I'm like, that's the problem Nicodemus had.
40:28
He was trying to be born from his mother's womb again, right?
40:30
He would have been thinking about John's water baptism and Jesus is like, no, no, no.
40:34
Think back to the scripture that came from God.
40:36
Think about what it means to be born from above.
40:40
I think that's great because most people don't understand five times there from John 3, 5 to 3,
40:46
8, the spirit is mentioned even when there is Numa in Greek.
40:52
So my question is why would we want to cling to water when the spirit is talked
40:58
about five times in that verse?
41:01
You're just taking the water out of it.
41:03
It's the plain meaning of the text.
41:05
And I want our viewers, I don't know Pastor Nathan where to look over here.
41:12
Is you can say that the plain meaning of the text is X but you have to demonstrate that.
41:18
And so that's where I hope our audience is listening to us is we're starting with lexical uses, definitions of terms
41:24
and then we're letting the context determine that.
41:27
Because I noticed, and I'm trying to be nice to say this.
41:29
I noticed Mark asked me this question about three times in a row.
41:32
And I just tried to come at it with a little bit more zing each time because I could tell his tradition was
41:38
being challenged and he's never probably heard of a good response to this before.
41:43
And so one of his questions was, well, how can you believe this is a waterless baptism when
41:49
the surrounding context involves water like with John the Baptist?
41:53
I'm like, because that's what Nicodemus would have had in mind.
41:56
And Jesus is calling him to think in almost transcendent categories.
42:01
Right, because we don't deny later in verse 22, Jesus and his disciples, they went on baptizing, right?
42:06
Where water was plentiful.
42:09
And it goes on to talk about how this was in disputes with Jews over purification rights.
42:16
And I think that further builds our case because when you start getting into purification washings
42:22
in the Old Testament, they would be totally bathed in water.
42:26
Leviticus 17, many examples in Leviticus.
42:28
I saw people in the chat saying, Jeremiah's not quoting from anywhere.
42:31
Well, go back to Yom Kippur.
42:34
Aaron was totally bathed.
42:36
This would have been a type of mitzvah.
42:40
And this would have been a setting where someone was totally immersed for a ceremonial cleansing.
42:46
And those are always in the context to teach us a spiritual truth.
42:50
That's what we teach, right?
42:52
Baptism is wonderful and it pictures a spiritual reality of what God has
42:58
already begun in your life and we'll see it to completion.
43:02
So when you dial back, baptism doesn't just pop up out of nowhere in the New Testament.
43:07
The nearest antecedent with that is not these Old Testament types and shadows, but it's with John the Baptist.
43:11
And there was even a backdrop why John's immersion in water was meaningful
43:17
because it even has remnants with the Jewish purification rites.
43:23
So anything else to add to that?
43:26
We don't wanna kinda overload them with too much theology.
43:31
Well, like I said, there's two passages that kind of rise to the forefront and John 3, 5, we're talking
43:38
about regeneration and we got to talk about Titus 3, 5.
43:43
I love how it's John 3, 5 and Titus 3, 5.
43:46
Before we look at this passage a little bit and hopefully the audience kinda catches the pattern, we're gonna look at context.
43:52
We're not gonna read this as a mere proof text.
43:56
But I wanna talk about a little bit of why I think Lutherans have trouble with this a little bit is
44:01
because, and this stems straight back from Martin Luther himself.
44:05
He could only understand the spirit working in the word in such a way,
44:12
now make sure I say this right, in such a way that regeneration was ever present with the
44:18
proclaimed word as well, whether it's proclaimed or through the visible word like baptism.
44:23
So like regeneration had to always be there.
44:26
And this comes from other verses that I think Lutherans misunderstand.
44:32
You mentioned this earlier, Romans 10, 17 talks about faith comes by hearing and hearing of the word of Christ or the
44:38
word of God, if you like that good old King James Bible.
44:42
And so their mind, in order to get faith, it only can come through the word
44:48
with the spirit and regeneration is there.
44:51
And we're saying the spirit's always present in regeneration, it's always present with this word, but
44:57
regeneration doesn't always go with the spirit -filled word.
45:01
Sometimes, and this is God's prerogative and we're gonna continue to build this case, the spirit -filled word goes out in power,
45:07
but not always regeneration being with the spirit -filled word going forth.
45:14
But we still see the word going out in power because of the nature of the word of God.
45:20
It's living, it's powerful, sharper than any two -edged sword.
45:23
And Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
45:29
And so it's always a spirit -filled word.
45:31
It's just, make sure I say this right, because I caught myself in the debate.
45:34
I said this in such a way, I'm like, spirit's always in regeneration, but regeneration doesn't always
45:40
go out in the proclaiming of the spirit -filled word.
45:44
Right, so we're saying it's God's prerogative to sometimes have the spirit -filled word to go out in judgment.
45:51
Right, and that doesn't entail regeneration being embedded in the spirit -filled word.
45:57
Did I say it right this time?
45:58
Yeah, this time you've done really good.
46:00
See, that's why I need you.
46:02
I need you to keep me in check with things like that.
46:04
I hope I'm not stepping too far past.
46:07
This is where the question you kind of put back in.
46:10
Mark, why would one believe over the other?
46:13
Stop that, we're gonna get to that cliff as well.
46:16
No, but this is a good transition because their understanding of regeneration in such a way that it
46:22
necessarily is embedded with the spirit -filled word is gonna lead to future contradictions
46:28
that they put in this mystery box.
46:30
But there's actually another verse too that I think we need to be able to give a good account for.
46:35
And I believe it is 1 Peter 1, 23.
46:39
And it talks about how one is born again by preaching of the word.
46:44
Real similar to Romans 10, 17.
46:47
And so with our understanding, when someone is born again, it is understood as the
46:53
spirit -filled word that also carried that regeneration with it.
46:59
Right, so we can say, yeah, the word of God causes someone to regenerate because the spirit is
47:05
with the word and regeneration.
47:08
Right, and so it's a work of the spirit.
47:10
And so this actually ties into Titus 3, 5.
47:14
And so, Pastor Nathan, if you could pull up Titus 3, 5,
47:21
I wanna look a little bit at context and have you help me develop this out.
47:25
So I'm actually gonna look at starting verse four through verse eight.
47:29
So we read, but when the goodness and loving kindness of God, our Savior, appeared,
47:35
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own
47:42
mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us
47:48
richly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, so that being justified by His grace, we might become heirs
47:54
according to the hope of eternal life.
47:57
The saying is trustworthy.
47:59
And I want you to insist on these things so that those who have believed in God may be careful to
48:05
devote themselves to good works.
48:07
These things are excellent and profitable for people.
48:12
And so there's a lot there that's actually important.
48:14
So the proof text is Titus 3, 5.
48:18
And what is so important is that God saves, right?
48:24
And the contrast is not you.
48:29
You did not assist God in His work of redemption at all.
48:33
And that's the same for me.
48:35
And this is where tongue in cheek again, remember how if someone could ask me, do I think water is
48:43
Yeah, but not in the way that you think, right?
48:46
It's actually a rebuke against Nicodemus for thinking those categories.
48:49
It's actually, it comes back out in 1 Peter 3, 21.
48:54
Yeah, but not in the way that you think.
48:55
It's not the removal of dirt from the body, right?
48:59
You're talking about something else.
49:00
And so I could almost say this.
49:01
Yeah, baptism is somewhere involved.
49:03
Water baptism is involved in 3, 5, but not in the way that you think.
49:07
Because God saved us, not because of works done by us in
49:14
That is where baptism would fall for us.
49:19
With infants, they're not doing any works.
49:22
So they have me on infant baptism.
49:24
I can't say, oh man, you're adding works to the gospel because with infants, it's being done to them.
49:29
And so we just gotta say, well, given the nature of the new covenant, it's for those that confess Jesus as Lord.
49:35
That's why infants shouldn't be involved in baptism.
49:37
It's not to say that we don't love children.
49:39
It's not to say we don't honor the verse where Jesus says, allow the little children to come to me for such is the kingdom of God.
49:45
We love all those within their context, right?
49:48
And so the deal is, and I tried to key in on this, and I think it worked really well.
49:53
Talking about adult baptisms.
49:55
Those are participatory works that we work together in our sanctification.
50:02
And we're reminded, your justification is not based on what you brought to the table.
50:06
Something that you did rightly, that you were called to do, but don't get it twisted.
50:10
That's not why you stand right before God.
50:14
We can see baptism in Titus 3, 5, but not with the washing, regeneration, renewal of the Holy Spirit.
50:20
No, it's actually a work that you've done in righteousness, and that's not contributing to your salvation.
50:26
Yes, I really enjoy that.
50:27
I would also apply when they say that the baby's not doing nothing when he or she's been
50:34
Well, that's a misconception of Ergon there in Romans 4.
50:38
It means whether you do something or the person that's taking you up there.
50:43
That baby may be crying, flailing its arms, and to their credit, it's not doing any works to
50:49
They're doing works like even pagans are doing work against God, right?
50:56
Pastor Nathan probably knows it, but there was one theologian that talked about.
51:00
The only thing you contributed to your salvation were the sin, the sinful deeds that made it necessary to have a
51:08
So that's why you gotta just be able to have a conversation about adult baptism and then infant baptism because it's
51:14
not gonna be the same as you approach it.
51:17
But like you're saying, Ergon is so much broader and in -depth than what people realize.
51:23
It's anything that you do or accomplish.
51:26
And so that's why adult baptism especially belongs in this category, not
51:31
because of works done by us in righteousness.
51:35
And we kind of talked about this in your debate review video because people said, well, baptism's not a work that we do.
51:43
I get what you're saying in infant baptism.
51:45
They're not doing anything positively in their baptisms, all being done to them, even the being
51:51
brought up into the baptism, but you can't make that case for adult baptism.
51:56
Because according to Lutherans, and it's interesting because I don't know if all Lutherans would agree with Mark on this,
52:02
but I tried to ask him, did regeneration happen before baptism for an
52:09
And I'm like, okay, well, does regeneration continue to happen in baptism?
52:13
And he said, no, that'd be more of, he said your word, Jeremiah, sanctification.
52:18
They say no, regeneration has to be consistent from infant baptism to adult baptism.
52:24
So what they have to do is extend regeneration to mean more than a rebirth.
52:28
It has to be a continual application of God.
52:32
And that's where I just say, well, that goes against the lexical usage of regeneration and it just goes against the
52:38
context in which we read about it, right?
52:40
You gotta understand proper categories.
52:41
Regeneration, justification, sanctification, right?
52:44
We gotta keep the ordos loose.
52:46
So I wanna give Mark's props that he stuck to the actual use of regeneration
52:52
But does that make sense how you have to be, you have to qualify if you're talking about infant baptism versus adult baptism?
52:58
Oh yeah, there's definitely a different category there.
53:00
And like I said, I don't know a whole lot about infant baptism, but I do know that Lutheranism is
53:06
a distinction from Presbyterian because our brothers are at the Presbyterian place.
53:12
We love them, but we see some inconsistencies.
53:15
Absolutely, and that was something I was trying to emphasize throughout the debate is the Church of Christ, the way that they view
53:21
baptism, and they're not gonna explicitly say it's meritorious, but I'm just saying that's the fruit of their position,.
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They're making it legalism.
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And so with Lutherans, I get what they're trying to do.
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They're trying to hold on to justification by faith alone when you have faith.
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And then so we're just talking about inconsistencies that we think flow from that, right?
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And so the reason why I think works done by us in righteousness would be talking about
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baptism, going to church, reading your Bible, all these things that we do is because of the context of
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He's writing this pastoral letter to Titus, and it's intended to go to a church congregation.
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And all throughout Titus here, he is talking about good works, right?
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He even starts in Titus 1, talking about the reversal, talking about
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those that have had their consciences defiled.
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They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works.
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They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
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And so he already has this in mind in chapter one.
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And he's talking about being able to discern sound doctrine, right?
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So it can basically edify the body.
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And that immediately ties into discipleship.
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In verse 14 of chapter two says that Jesus Christ, our great God and savior Jesus Christ
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gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness, to purify for himself a people for his own
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possession who were zealous for good works.
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And so all this is laying the foundation for understanding not by works done
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And so this is the distinction with the Pharisees.
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They would be trying to follow the law, the letter of the law, but their heart's not in it.
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And we understand from Luke chapter 18, that would be trusting in yourself.
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When you're not looking to God, resting in the finished work of Christ, then you're necessarily looking somewhere else to
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And so you have that contrast going on.
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And so then this is the key.
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This is the same point that Jesus was making in John three, not the things that you do, not the things
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of earth and below, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of
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regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.
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And so this is a work of the Holy Spirit.
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When God has ordained that the spirit -filled word go out in such a way to some, and we're gonna get
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into this, it then also carries regeneration, right?
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And so when that hits a dead sinner's heart, brings them newness of life, right?
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And so I don't know if you wanna speak any more to the context here, but it continues to talk about justification
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so we don't miss it, right?
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Whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, so that being
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justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
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I feel like this is such a connection with Romans chapter three.
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Oh yeah, yeah, Romans 3 .25, I believe it is.
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I can't say it off the top of my head, but -.
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We're justified by his grace.
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Yeah, justified by grace.
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So the atonement there is always in categorical working towards Christ, the one that
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he's our great God and Savior.
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And he justifies us by his grace through faith, apart from our works.
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And I keep bringing up works, righteousness done by us, right?
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Because in verse eight, this saying is trustworthy.
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This is almost like a creed, if you will.
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This saying is trustworthy.
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I want you to insist on these things so that those who have believed in God may be careful to
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devote themselves to good works.
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And so, so many things are going on here.
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And I love the consistency of what we're seeing with John chapter three, 1 Peter 3 .21, everywhere we go, because
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infants can't do these things, right?
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And we're seeing this as a work of God.
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This is something that has to be from above, that God says, I will do these things.
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And so this sets us up for our next point, because like I said, I think Lutherans today are
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just a reflection of Melanchthon, a protege of Martin Luther.
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And Luther, bless his soul, was struggling against the vestiges of Rome, right?
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We believe in semper reformanda, right?
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And so when we look back at history, man, praise God for Martin Luther.
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Justification by faith alone, we're standing on sola scriptura, God's word as the only infallible rule of
57:59
faith for the life of a believer.
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But there were a lot of things that we see that he was still warring with, right?
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He even had certain views on Mary where I'm like, man, there are still things that need to be worked out with.
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And I believe his baptism, his view on baptism was something that still wasn't completely worked out.
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And so, like I said, it comes, and this is where the person that was telling me that I was shifting the debate
58:24
away from baptism, well, they hold to baptismal regeneration, right?
58:29
And so I'm allowed to then get their definition and understanding of regeneration itself and its
58:36
So with that being said, Pastor Nathan, will you please roll that next clip?
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So to kind of recap where we're at, so we both agree on total depravity, meaning that man is
58:49
unable to respond positively to the gospel, we agree.
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By his own natural powers, correct?
58:56
So I think maybe it'll be brought out that we somehow disagree, but I think we agree that he is unable
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to respond, possibly by his own natural faculties.
59:09
So it's not the spirit that quickens, irresistibly calls
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him to repent and believe the gospel.
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So here's my next question.
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So how does someone who is spiritually dead respond, who is unable to
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respond positively to the gospel at all?
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So I'll put it like this.
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If there's two people, one rejects the gospel that came out that was spirit -filled, right?
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And a second person receives the gospel.
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How does that second person receive the gospel?
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I'm not really, would you say that.
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That's a different question from why does he receive it?
59:57
Or is that the same question?
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Why does one receive it and not the other?
1:00:02
That sounds the direction I'm going.
1:00:05
Well, the simple answer is, I don't know.
1:00:07
But in the case of the person who does receive it, he's regenerated by the spirit
1:00:15
Thank you, Pastor Nathan.
1:00:16
You're doing a phenomenal job back there, by the way.
1:00:20
So this is one of my favorite parts of the whole debate, Adam, is because in my questioning,
1:00:26
I was wanting to lead him down a path.
1:00:28
And we were agreeing, we were agreeing, and then I wanted to bring something out of left field
1:00:34
because, man, and like I said, I love Lutherans.
1:00:38
I love Martin Luther and studying the history.
1:00:40
But they affirm total depravity and reject the doctrine of irresistible grace,
1:00:46
this effectual call, this inner call that is distinguished from the external call that's for all men.
1:00:53
And I think they are in a huge pickle.
1:00:56
And they call it a mystery, you know?
1:00:59
And I do wanna say that we all have our mystery boxes, right?
1:01:02
If you're asking me how the eternal counsel of God works before the foundation of the world,
1:01:09
That's somehow a reflection of a human counsel, but that doesn't totally capture
1:01:15
perichoresis, this perfect harmony of Father, Son, and Spirit counseling categorically different than how we
1:01:22
There are mysteries, and I get that.
1:01:25
But what I don't like is I don't like saying, well, there's a plain sense
1:01:33
You have to prove your position because my position is just the plain meaning of the text.
1:01:38
And then when you ask me really hard logical questions, mystery.
1:01:42
So I just, I try to wait a long time before I'm gonna pull out the mystery
1:01:49
Like I wanna exhaust all of what God has revealed before I do that.
1:01:55
And so, anyway, that was a little bit of my thought going into this, but I wanted to set him up because
1:02:00
studying this, I noticed this huge gaping hole is they affirmed total depravity,
1:02:07
reject irresistible grace, and reject libertarian free will.
1:02:13
And I'm over here like, ooh, that's a tough road to go down.
1:02:17
And I wanted to bring that out in the debate because I was trying to get him to agree with me, very
1:02:23
easily from what Martin Luther talked about in the bondage of the will.
1:02:27
And something as clear, talking about the plain meaning of the text here, something as clear as what the apostle Paul
1:02:33
says in 1 Corinthians 2 .14 that says, "'The natural person does
1:02:39
not accept the things "'of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, "'and he is not
1:02:45
able to understand them "'because they are spiritually discerned.'".
1:02:49
Now, I tried to quote the Greek, you may have to correct me on this, but un duname, man
1:02:55
doesn't have the power within himself to be able to hear the spiritual gospel, the
1:03:01
Spirit -filled Word, and say, you know what?
1:03:03
I'm gonna accept that, right?
1:03:06
He's not able to do that.
1:03:08
There's an inability on man's part.
1:03:11
And so we look outside of that.
1:03:12
And Mark said, we don't answer questions like, why is it that some respond and others
1:03:19
Well, I'm over here saying, I would only believe that if I felt like it was super clear that the Scripture teaches that.
1:03:24
And I think Ephesians 2, 1 through 10 beautifully paints this picture about how supernatural work of
1:03:30
God by His grace and His mercy is bringing someone to newness of life, someone that was
1:03:36
once part of the dominion of Satan, the spirit of this age, right?
1:03:41
And then I would go to Titus 3, I would go to John 3, I would go to 1 John
1:03:47
5, I would go to 1 Peter 1 to say, yes, the
1:03:52
spirit has to, in the preaching of the Word and regeneration, bring that
1:03:59
But the assumption on their part that is just the plain meaning of the text, I suppose, is that
1:04:05
regeneration always goes with the preaching of the Word.
1:04:10
That's the something that he would have to demonstrate and not assume it.
1:04:13
And I'm not assuming my position.
1:04:14
I want to prove that from Scripture.
1:04:20
So total privacy is really huge in this conversation.
1:04:23
So do you have anything else to say with total privacy?
1:04:26
So like I know in Romans 8, right, the natural man, the person that doesn't have the spirit
1:04:33
Right, but doesn't Romans 8 also talk about how it's just, it's more than that too.
1:04:37
They're in the teeth of God and hate God.
1:04:40
If we look here at Romans 8, 8, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1:04:46
I want to kind of look out, and I love Shannon here, and he's a buddy of ours.
1:04:53
I kind of went back and forth to the total depravity.
1:05:01
Matt Slick, I watched a little bit of that, and I believe it was Shannon that brought up that text, 2 Corinthians 4,
1:05:06
4, about Satan blinding to where we can't see the light of the gospel.
1:05:12
And I'm like, amen, but that doesn't negate the fact that we are already totally depraved from the fall
1:05:19
So we just see on top of that total depravity and that Satan is also at work
1:05:26
I'm glad you brought this up.
1:05:27
I'm just going to read it real fast.
1:05:28
In their case, the God of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers to keep them from seeing
1:05:34
the light of the gospel, the glory of Christ, who is in the image of God.
1:05:39
And so I love this because this makes me think of the parable of the sower, right?
1:05:42
That first wayside soil, wayside heart, the birds come in, Satan comes in and snatches it up.
1:05:48
And so man is blind, but that blindness represents a darkness and a suppression of the truth and their love of
1:05:55
And there's so many layers.
1:05:56
Not every man is as evil and wicked as they could be.
1:06:00
Right, and what's interesting, tying this back, we had to give Shannon, wherever you are, a shout out.
1:06:07
But total depravity is important in our conversation with the Lutheran, right?
1:06:12
Because they're in this dilemma and they put it in this mystery box and I'm fine with that.
1:06:17
But just please let us say, there's just a major inconsistency here because you're trying to take our doctrine
1:06:24
of total depravity and try to say, well, man can't respond to God, right?
1:06:30
Until the spirit -filled word hits their heart.
1:06:33
Well, we believe that, but how do you account for the one that rejects it?
1:06:37
And they're just saying, well, we don't want to go deeper and answer that.
1:06:40
Because we're saying, what distinguishes the one that receives it and rejects it?
1:06:44
And if you just say, well, the spirit quickened this one and the hardness of this one rejected, great.
1:06:50
We believe that, but why did he reject?
1:06:53
Why did he receive it if they're both totally depraved?
1:06:59
So that was my favorite part of the whole debate because that just shows the gaping hole in Lutheran
1:07:05
doctrine and it's on regeneration, which necessarily ties us back to baptism, right?
1:07:11
So I asked another question to Mark and bless his heart.
1:07:17
He just, he didn't understand.
1:07:19
And I felt like I laid it out.
1:07:20
I know time was running out, but I asked him the question, are there non -elect individuals
1:07:28
I believe this is our last clip.
1:07:30
So Pastor Nathan, if you would please play that.
1:07:33
The question is, are there non -elect people in the new covenant?
1:07:38
I just, I guess I'm struggling because it's not like the kind of terminology that I use, that
1:07:47
As far as, you know, speaking of someone being in the new covenant, because when I think of
1:07:53
the phrase being in the new covenant, the new covenant includes
1:08:02
But I'm saying non -elect, someone that will not reach glorification.
1:08:06
Because y 'all affirmed the you in an unconditional election, right?
1:08:12
Probably in a different way than you would, but I'm not sure we'd have to talk about that.
1:08:18
Okay, let me define it this way.
1:08:20
Is it fair to say that there are infants that will be regenerated, but fall away and not reach
1:08:26
And while they were on earth, they were in the new covenant, meaning that they were baptized.
1:08:34
Yes, I guess to answer your question as best I can.
1:08:39
Thank you for that, Mark.
1:08:41
And we continue to go on, you know, really, because I really wanted to explain to him where I was getting at, is you have
1:08:47
infants in the new covenant because they were baptized.
1:08:50
And in their view, if you baptize, then you receive the Holy Spirit in
1:08:56
regeneration that produces faith, right?
1:08:58
And this kind of goes back to John 3 that works against their position.
1:09:02
Because there, Jesus even said, don't marvel at these things, Adam.
1:09:05
You can't control where the Holy Spirit goes.
1:09:08
You can only see its effect.
1:09:09
And Lutheranism comes and says, no, we can control this environment.
1:09:13
We're gonna baptize this infant to get the Holy Spirit that produces faith.
1:09:16
And I'm over here saying, I have trouble hearing how that goes with the plain meaning of what
1:09:22
Jesus is telling Nicodemus, right?
1:09:24
So we can play this game of the plain meaning of the text.
1:09:27
Look, grammatical historical method, demonstrate your case, right?
1:09:31
And so this ties back into what we mean by the new covenant because in their view, you can
1:09:37
have a non -elect infant, someone that is not going to reach glorification, but they
1:09:43
can be a part of the new covenant along the way.
1:09:46
They can be baptized, receive the Spirit, have a child faith.
1:09:50
And I was so ready to talk about John the Baptist by the Holy Spirit leaping in their mother's womb.
1:09:55
And that's kind of the go -to to say, see, John the Baptist had faith.
1:09:59
And so I was prepared to say, no, that's not what's going on.
1:10:02
For one, that's not what the plain meaning of the text says.
1:10:04
I want people to hear me.
1:10:06
You gotta prove that, right?
1:10:07
You gotta have a tall stack of cookies for me to snack on that.
1:10:12
But the prophet Jeremiah 1 verse 5 talks about how he was set apart to
1:10:18
be a prophet from the womb, right?
1:10:21
That set apart is a work of the Holy Spirit, right?
1:10:25
In Galatians chapter 1, same thing with the apostle Paul.
1:10:28
He was set apart in his mother's womb for the role of apostle.
1:10:34
That's what we see going on with John the Baptist.
1:10:36
The Holy Spirit was, he was set apart by the Holy Spirit, just like the prophets of old and the New Testament
1:10:43
So I'm just saying, I got off on a little rabbit trail to say, look, you gotta be able to deal with proof texts in their
1:10:51
And so with Lutherans, you have infants that are in the new covenant that can fall away and
1:10:58
That's why they reject particular redemption.
1:11:00
It's gonna be a huge part of this conversation we're about to have.
1:11:02
And they reject irresistible grace, right?
1:11:05
And then they don't believe that if you have the Spirit, then you'll be preserved by the Holy Spirit to the
1:11:12
They reject perseverance of the saints.
1:11:14
And so my question for him though is, in light of this, in what way is Jesus
1:11:21
a meaningful mediator on the behalf of the non -elect?
1:11:28
Because we're over here saying Jesus is a perfect Savior.
1:11:31
He saves to the uttermost, meaning He cannot fail because He saves
1:11:39
And so for me, Jesus dies for those whom the Father has given Him, right?
1:11:45
His blood covers them fully and they make it to the end.
1:11:50
So do you wanna add anything to that real quick?
1:11:51
Well, just the second part of that verse, it says those who draw near to God
1:11:57
through Him, we don't necessarily see a baby drawing near to God through cross because
1:12:03
that's something that only a regenerate can do.
1:12:07
So the Holy Spirit drew them near to God.
1:12:10
Oh, I thought we were supposed to use the plain meaning of the text.
1:12:17
I had my Lutheran hat on for a second.
1:12:20
Just check it out, Lutheran.
1:12:23
It says those who draw near.
1:12:24
That is the plain meaning of the text.
1:12:27
So we're looking at a spiritual thing because consequently He is able to save the
1:12:33
This is all pointing to cross.
1:12:35
He's making intercession for those.
1:12:37
I got an objection for you.
1:12:39
I read this in the comments.
1:12:40
The text actually says, Mr. Adam, consequently He is able to save
1:12:47
It doesn't really say that He will.
1:12:49
What do you say to something like that?
1:12:54
I mean, are we talking about the Jesus of Nazareth, the
1:13:00
one that was born through Mary's virgin birth?
1:13:05
I mean, that's Jesus we're talking about.
1:13:08
So we can't get too caught up on is He able?
1:13:14
Let's not look past who we're talking about here.
1:13:16
I'm just telling you the things that I have to deal with.
1:13:19
Like I said, I couldn't deal with all the things you deal with because I'm this high up in church across
1:13:27
I mean, I love them to death, but they got a false gospel.
1:13:31
And let's just look at the text and God.
1:13:34
Let's look at the plain meaning of scripture.
1:13:37
Well, with the grammatical historical.
1:13:39
The plain meaning is the grammatical historical in its context.
1:13:43
So there's a lot of people that try to rip it out of its context.
1:13:48
He said he's what the 10 verses he machine gun through the opening statement.
1:13:54
I tried to cover them all.
1:13:56
I just got so in the moment of just like, hey, let's really develop context of Acts 2 .38.
1:14:00
Let's develop the context of Acts 22 .16.
1:14:03
And that 10 minutes went, just flew by.
1:14:06
And so, because I care so much about context because that's how we develop the meaning of any proof
1:14:14
And then I love this because he threw me a little jab.
1:14:16
He's like, yeah, I noticed you conveniently left out Titus 3 .5 and John 3 .5.
1:14:22
And I was like, I would have preached a whole sermon on those verses, but that was the order that he went through them.
1:14:29
So I was kind of running short on time, but I loved the sauciness going on in there.
1:14:39
So Jesus is a perfect savior.
1:14:41
And so when someone says he's able, I'm like you, of course he's able.
1:14:44
He loses none that the father gives him.
1:14:47
And I'm not importing this theology that says, Jesus tried all he could do
1:14:55
And now he's just basically on the sideline cheering us on, hoping that we make the right decision.
1:14:59
I don't carry the same presupposition a Lutheran has in this discussion, right?
1:15:04
Because plain meaning of the text, he is a, consequently he is able to save to
1:15:11
Some translations say completely.
1:15:14
That means that he cannot fail.
1:15:17
And Hebrews just develops this case so much more.
1:15:22
I've told you this verse on the phone earlier today, Hebrews 9, 15.
1:15:26
Therefore he, Jesus, is the mediator of a new covenant so that those
1:15:33
are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance.
1:15:38
Then so this begins to lay the foundation how the new covenant are those that are elect
1:15:45
We're not talking about just the administration of the sign seal of baptism for false professors.
1:15:51
That's not the new covenant.
1:15:53
No, the new covenant is Jesus Christ being the perfect mediator and high priest that never fails to save those
1:15:59
whom he intended to save.
1:16:01
So we see this develop in Hebrews here.
1:16:04
And I brought out some of these verses and he kept wanting me to repeat the question.
1:16:09
Thomas, I would have, if we had another 10 minutes, I would have, but I needed to move on.
1:16:13
Because I told him, I even asked him to read this because just so he would see the context and I get it because he's trying to
1:16:19
think how to rebut it, right?
1:16:21
Which is hard on the spot if you're not ready for the fruit of a theological system aimed at you.
1:16:28
Because Hebrews 10, 10 goes on to say, and by that will, we have been sanctified
1:16:34
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
1:16:39
And so you can continue to read through this and then verse 14 just hits it on the head and says, for by a
1:16:44
single offering, Jesus, he has perfected for all time those who are
1:16:53
Well, it sounds like he saves to the uttermost.
1:16:56
He is able because he's going to accomplish it and he's not going to fail.
1:17:00
And so we're over here saying, those that are in the new covenant, those who have been regenerated, those that have been baptized,
1:17:06
that have demonstrated that faith in sanctification, which necessarily says the Holy Spirit's at work, he carries you
1:17:13
He who began that good work in regeneration.
1:17:16
By the way, Pastor Nathan preached a really good sermon on Philippians 1 verse 6.
1:17:20
People have to go check that out on TwelveFive's website.
1:17:23
But he really brought out the fact that it says, he who began a good work in you, somewhat that work of regeneration.
1:17:29
The Holy Spirit is going to carry us along, help us persevere to the
1:17:36
And let me give a shout out to Don Rowe.
1:17:38
He loves preservation of the saints.
1:17:41
And I love it, it's because it's the Holy Spirit actually ontologically, literally in
1:17:48
Not just a representation or metaphorical, no, the Spirit is in us.
1:17:53
That's why we are being sanctified.
1:17:55
It's a work of God that he started and that he's gonna carry it out.
1:17:59
Last time in our discussion, you pointed out how the Church of Christ view that says, well, it's just when you
1:18:05
read scriptures and the thoughts of scriptures in your head is the representative view of how the Holy Spirit indwells believer.
1:18:11
Well, that's all back on you and what you can do and you can accomplish.
1:18:15
And we've met people that said, yeah, the gospel is a gospel of faith and works, right?
1:18:20
It just goes, it devolves into a misunderstanding of James 2 at that point, right?
1:18:25
Well, we're talking about the new covenant.
1:18:27
This is a new covenant that Christ is the one, the head of, which we see Paul outlining
1:18:33
Romans 5 from Adam being the old covenant, Christ being the new covenant.
1:18:38
Man, I just want people to look at the text and see that we're talking about covenants.
1:18:44
And when we're talking about covenants, the old covenant, sure, there was curses and blessings.
1:18:48
You do this, you get this, you don't do this.
1:18:51
I mean, that's the whole structure of typology like we were talking about with the Ark pointing to
1:18:58
the great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
1:18:59
Well, He come so that He can establish a new covenant and the requirement is faith in
1:19:06
Put your faith and trust in Christ because He is the way, the truth, and the life.
1:19:10
And Jesus is a perfect mediator, right?
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We see in the Gospel of John, He loses none that the Father gives Him.
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And so another wonderful passage, I would actually like, Pastor Nathan, if you could bring up Romans 8,
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I want to show how Jesus is a perfect mediator, right?
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Not only are we seeing this developed in Hebrews, but in one of the best chapters in all the Bible, I'm so
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glad the Apostle Paul tried to build this assurance for those whom God has called,
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It's a guarantee that He will bring you to glorification.
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And so in Romans 8, 31, what shall we say to all these things?
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If God is for us, who can be against us?
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He who did not spare His own Son, but gave Him up for us all.
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And by the way, who is the us all that He's talking about?
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Is He talking about man generically, all without exception, or is He talking about all without distinction,
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whether you're Jew or Gentile, or is He talking about a very particular people in God's eyes?
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He says, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things?
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Here's the qualifier, verse 33.
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Who shall bring any charge against God's elect?
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Christ Jesus is the one who died, so His substitutionary death.
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Please keep that in mind, Adam.
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You didn't know you were getting a Bible study this evening, did you?
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So Christ Jesus is the one who died that substitutionary death, and more than that, argument from the lesser to
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the greater, who was raised, right?
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So Jesus died for the elect, for us, for all of us.
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He not only died, but He was raised for us, who is at the right hand of God, and who is indeed
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The us is the us all, those that are elect, that are in Christ Jesus by faith,
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apart from our works, and we have no condemnation credited to our account.
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And so this objection works on so many different denominations and sects, saying, in
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what way did Jesus mediate for the non -elect?
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Well, if that's within your purview of saying, well, I have this category of non -elect people that don't make it to
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glorification, Jesus failed in some way, right?
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And I love my Presbyterian brothers out there, but in their category, you
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also have non -elect, unregenerate being in the new covenant because it's an administration
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Well, in what way did Jesus mediate?
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Because it wasn't to the uttermost able to save, but He was mediating judgment on their behalf, right?
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And that sounds a lot like the old covenant, you know what I mean?
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And then with Lutherans, you have the non -elect that undergo regeneration that can fall away.
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How did Jesus mediate for them?
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And then for those systems that have people being able to lose their salvation, right?
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How did Jesus mediate for them while they were in the new covenant?
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So I think I wanna go the consistent route and just say, look, Jesus doesn't fail.
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I mean, who are we talking about here?
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Are we talking about Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the second person of the triune, God here, or are we talking
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I mean, if you're just talking about me, yeah, I'd give up on you.
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I wouldn't carry you through.
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I can barely carry myself through.
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Adam, thank you so much for doing this episode with me.
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I've took a few months off getting in the debate arena.
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I think it was back since April.
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This is my third debate this year, by the way.
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You're doing really good.
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And a lot of that's from the support that I have from my wife, Allie.
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Shout out to Allie Nortier.
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She's the babe of all babes.
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Couldn't do this without her, and my church family.
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So all of y 'all's prayers and this discipleship, this sharpening one another, this is why I can do what I do, and I just
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pray that it would bring God glory.
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So thank you for joining me, and thank you for watching the Apologetic Dog.
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Once again, I just want to please ask you to like and subscribe to this channel.
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When you do that, that allows us to be able to circulate content, and it helps the YouTube algorithm.
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And please follow us on other platforms.
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So please follow us there.
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And to Pastor Nathan's prayers, one day I will be more involved on the Instagram page.
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But we want to utilize social media to be able to preach the gospel, to be able to contend for the gospel of
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And so thank you so much for tuning in.