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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.
It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 28th day of June 2024.
Before I introduce my two guests and our topic for the day, I want to remind you if you are a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next free biannual Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon, which will be held Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania.
We are featuring as our guest speaker, for the very first time, Dr. Joe Boot, who is an author, conference speaker, and apologist, in addition to being the founder and president of the Ezra Institute.
And this is a free event for men in ministry leadership, and not only is the admission free and the lunch free, but everyone who attends will receive a heavy sack of free brand new books that have been personally selected by me and donated by Christian publishers all over the United States and United Kingdom.
So if you'd like to register for this event, which, as I said, will be held on Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line.
Well, yesterday made history because it is considered by many on both sides of the political aisle to be a debate that featured the worst performance by a candidate running for president of the United States in United States history.
And although that is not the topic of our discussion today, I believe that the theme of our conversation is not totally unrelated because this is just one area of the many areas where we who are members of the body of Christ have to be Christians in an unchristian world have to behave in such a manner that reflects that we are indeed disciples of Christ.
And the actual theme of our program today is Christian responsibility in an unchristian.
World.
And to discuss this very important theme, we have, first of all, a returning guest, A .M. Brewster, a certified biblical counselor, conference speaker, the president of Evermine Ministries, and the host of the best podcast for Christian dads and moms, Truth Love Parent.
And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to On Interpret Zion Radio, A .M. Brewster.
Chris, it's so nice for you to say that, you know, saying it's the best podcast for Christian dads and moms. I love when the host reads my bio exactly as I gave it to him. It's great to be back, man. Thanks for having me.
It's great to have you back. And joining us for the first time is Jay Miller, pastor of Vail Valley Baptist Church in Vail, Arizona, with over a decade of experience in prison ministry while serving as a volunteer for Prison Fellowship, who is joining us today for the very first time, as I mentioned.
And if you have any questions for my guest today on the theme that I'd already mentioned, Christian Responsibility in an Un-Christian World, send in your emails to chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.
As always, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. Well, I'd like to start, Aaron, by reminding our listeners, or even informing our listeners for the first time who have not already heard you on the program, let our listeners know something about Evermind Ministries and also the Truth Loved Parent podcast.
Yeah, so Evermind Ministries is a nonprofit that seeks to keep God's truth at the center of the human experience, and each of us humans are very dynamic individuals. For example, I am a son, I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm a friend, I'm a preacher.
So all these things and all those different relationships prompted Evermind Ministries to kind of create sub-ministries that will allow us to focus in on certain parts, facets of our being as we apply God's truth to it.
So Truth Loved Family was the first of those ministries created, and Truth Loved Parent is the award-winning Christian parenting podcast with over 500 episodes now, and so that's where that was. Then we had the year-long Celebration of God start with its podcast, the Celebration of God, and then also there's Faith Tree Biblical Counseling and Discipleship, which is where we do all of our crisis counseling and personal discipleship, and finally my Traveling and Speaking Ministries are also part of that.
So one of the things I encourage people to do, they can go to evermindministries .com, but even better than that, they should download the Evermind app, and from there they can learn everything there is to learn about this ministry and how we can serve you, the individual, and the churches and schools.
Okay, and if you could now, Jay, give us a description of Vail Valley Baptist Church in Vail, Arizona.
Once again, I want to say thank you for having us out. Vail Valley is a small church out in Vail, Arizona, as you said, which is southeast of Tucson. We're out in the desert, both ecologically and spiritually.
We are a community, as most of the West Coast is, that is kind of defined by apathy, a lack of interest in spiritual things. No one wakes up wanting to be evil in the morning. They just don't care. Our church is endeavoring to change that.
We're reaching out to our community as a 1689 Baptist church that sticks to the Bible, line by line, verse by verse, declaring the peace, truth, and hope found in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone.
Great, and what would be a doctoral summary and description of the church?
We are a Reformed Baptist church that hold to the Reformation theology. We are what I laughingly and often call us biblical belligerents. If the Bible says it, we do it. And if it doesn't, we don't. And that means we look a little different from the megachurches that you find out here.
But above all things, we want to be faithful.
Great, and if anybody wants more details on Vail Valley Baptist Church in Vail, Arizona, go to vailvalleybaptistchurch .org. Vailvalleybaptistchurch .org. Vail is spelt V-A-I-L. And hopefully we will remember to repeat that information at the end of the program.
Well, Pastor Jay, you are a first-time guest on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. And before we go into our major theme today with both you and Aaron, we would like you to do what all of our first-time guests do and give a summary of your salvation testimony.
And that would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which you were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.
Sounds good. I was raised in the Midwest, in Missouri, where everybody declared you were a Christian and very few people actually acted like it. We were priesters.
Many places in the Deep South as well have that phenomenon. Nominal Christianity is rampant in the Bible Belt, unfortunately.
Unfortunately. We went to church on Christmas and Easter, and then as a family, later on, just stopped bothering to go at any time. I kept reading all these new atheists that were coming out at the time, as well as the Bible, and it occurred to me that if this is really true, life should be fundamentally different from what I was seeing.
So I dismissed the whole thing out of hand. I considered Christianity foolishness, and if there was no impact on life, what was the point of having it? Joined the Army. Did some time there in Georgia.
When I got out, I came out here to Tucson, and I was working nights. I'm flipping through radio stations because it's Sunday morning at 7 a .m., and there is nothing on worth listening to 20 years ago.
I come across this guy named Robert Furrow out of Calvary Chapel, Tucson. The first words out of his mouth were, if you agree with me on everything I say, it means one of us aren't thinking. I know I'm thinking, so that must mean you're not thinking.
That is the first time ever in my life someone had suggested that Christianity was a faith not just of declaration and then no consequence, but one of thought and contemplation. Still an Advent atheist.
Started going to his church to prove all these foolish Christians wrong, and then started reading, and by God's good providence, I didn't end up with Osteen or Meyer or Joseph Prince in my hand, but I was poor, and so I went to a thrift store and came across Spurgeon.
Spurgeon and Spurgeon and more Spurgeon. Not realizing I was getting the gold standard of Christian teaching for pennies on the dollar. Started reading. Came to the in that I could not deny Christianity was true.
Gave my life to Christ and spent five or six years just buried in books. Eventually it occurred to me that I needed to be doing more than just serving myself. So I started teaching, or I started in the security team at church, and someone asked why we called Easter Easter, and Theology Dork Jay has the answer, and I got pulled into Sunday school.
Start teaching there, and then one day Robert out at Calvary Chapel says, you know, we should have a prison ministry, and it was like the clouds parted and the skies opened up, and all of a sudden I knew exactly what I was supposed to be doing.
Volunteered to help out at the prison and ended up getting paired with a group that didn't just teach scripted Bible studies, but actually had Sunday services, and it suddenly occurred to me exactly what I got myself into, and out of just the terror of mishandling God's word, I went to seminary.
From that point, I spent 10 years in the prison, and I was perfectly content to spend the rest of my life as a volunteer pastor out in Arizona Corrections. Till one day a friend of mine asked me if I could pulpit fill for a little church out in the middle of nowhere that I'd never even heard of called Vail Valley Baptist.
Went out there, taught, and then through just providence and providence alone ended up being the senior pastor out there.
Now, did you bring Reformed theology that you had already previously discovered to Vail Valley Baptist and assist in transforming that church theologically, or were they already believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace, a .k .a. Reformed theology, a .k .a. Calvinism?
When I first got out there, their statement of belief was a Baptist faith and message. As the Southern Baptists have continued on with their drift, their liberal drift, which so many will say doesn't exist, but I believe is fairly evident, I proposed that we leave the SBC, and the congregation agreed with me.
If we were leaving, we needed a new statement of beliefs. I have always taught Reformed theology, believing it to be the most accurate representation of what Scripture teaches. So I proposed using the 1689 London Baptist Confession as our statement of faith as a promise.
It wasn't a demand that people believe everything that I believe, but a promise that anybody who walked in through those doors would always be taught what was in our statement of faith. And I didn't think it was fair to the church or to anybody joining to misrepresent myself as anything than what I was, which is a Reformed Baptist preacher.
Now, could you go a little bit backward in time and tell us about how you came to discover the doctrines of sovereign grace?
Like I said, I ran into a thrift store and started reading Spurgeon. From Spurgeon, he kept mentioning all these old guys that I'd never heard of before, Jeremiah Burroughs and John Owen and all these Puritan writers.
And I start reading them as well. Well, gnawing on them slowly but surely, trying to make my way through these incredibly dense tomes of theology that were just wildly over my head. I had always, I laughingly called myself a two-point Calvinist.
I really liked the easy stuff, you know, God calls us and he'll never lose us. But the other points of Calvinism were beyond my understanding at the time, and it actually took going to an Armenian seminary.
I went to Liberty Baptist as I start wrestling with what they're teaching and saying, wait a minute, what you're teaching isn't lining up with what I'm seeing in Scripture. Wrote several papers on Romans 9, John 6, Hebrews, and ended up cementing my understanding of Reformed theology while at Liberty with Armenian professors.
Yes, and in fact, at one point there was a real heavy stream of vehement anti-Calvinism there at Liberty University, but there was always at least a handful, to my knowledge anyway, a handful of strong Calvinists there on the faculty and so on.
So I believe they have since abandoned that vehement anti-Calvinist stance, if I'm not mistaken, which I thank God for that development. Well, we are going to go to our first commercial break, and when we come back, we're going to dive right into the subject at hand, Christian responsibility in an unchristian world, and obviously giving details about the conference and how people can register for that as well.
But once again, if you have a question for my guests, please send us an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.
Don't go away, we'll be right back.
I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a Christ-centered, gospel-driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth.
We're delighted to be a part of ChrisArnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family. At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired Word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.
Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear God's image. If you live near Lindbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship.
For details, visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's L-Y-N-BrookBaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the Lord's blessing and the knowledge of himself. I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur. I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show.
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Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long-time partnership with our friends at CBBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.
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Greetings. This is Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program. SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.
We can be reached at SecureCommGroup .com. That's SecureCommGroup .com. But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur. In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran.
He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sensed that same God-given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God. That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit NHPBC .com.
That's NHPBC .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672. That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
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We are now back with A .M. Brewster and Jay Miller, and our discussion of the day is the same as the theme of an upcoming conference, and it is the theme which just disappeared from my screen.
Christian Responsibility in an Un-Christian World.
Yes. And our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com. You can give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. And Jay Miller, I'm assuming the theme for this conference was something that you came up with.
Why don't you tell us what compelled you to pick this specific theme?
We have a bill currently going on our November ballot called the Arizona Abortion Access Act. It will allow for the murder of the unborn up to the point of birth for any reason, mental or physical, at any time.
It allows anyone with a license, be that a masseuse, a dentist, an optometrist, to declare that a pregnancy is now a disease and will allow the mother to kill her unborn child beyond the point of viability.
My sanctity of life sermon was actually kind of where we started, where this conference started. I started thinking about what I wanted to say, and I realized I only have one option. With this abomination, this travesty of a bill that is coming up, I needed to get my people out into the streets and declaring exactly what this bill will do.
They need to be following signature collectors around parking lots. They need to be talking to every person in their phone. They need to be reaching out to every person they're connected to on social media, and we need to be letting people know.
So I started flipping through scripture, and I came across Ezekiel 3. In Ezekiel 3, starting in verse 18, it says,. And that was the starting text for my sanctity of life. Sunday message, declaration that we have a moral culpability as the church for our decades-long failure to speak up, to be more worried about being winsome than being true, about being more worried about being nice than being righteous.
That led to this idea, when I started talking to Andrew, of, well, let's flesh this out a little bit. Let's spread out this idea from one tiny realm, being the realm, very important realm, but a small realm of abortion, to all of Christian life, and what would that look like?
Yes, that is an issue that is really, I think, one of the major problems within modern evangelicalism. You have, on the one hand, on the opposite end of the spectrum, a problem that is, in my guess, a less frequent problem, and that is being bold and angry without the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, without humility.
Where we may hurl insults and be more offensive than the gospel message itself. The gospel is offensive enough to the unbeliever without us unnecessarily adding our own offensiveness. But the more widespread problem that I have found, being a Christian since the mid -1980s, a truly born-again evangelical Christian, is that people are more concerned about offending others, hurting their feelings.
They're more concerned over that than they are over the never-dying souls of those whom we, to those whom we proclaim the gospel. And that even ties in with the current presidential race, where you have Christians who are passionate about their views of who they want to see in the position of the leader of the free world.
And sometimes in our aggressiveness and our disgust with things that the left stands for, including infanticide, including the sexual mutilation of our children in the name of the healthcare, so-called, of transgendered children.
And all these things that happen, we can lose our cool, and that would include me, and sometimes we forget that God is in control. And we have to ever be mindful of the fact that we are to be with certainty righteously indignant.
We are to have righteous anger, but we have to make sure that we are not self-righteous in our way of communicating this. But at the other end of the spectrum, the most prevalent problem is people who would either not want to bring up things like infanticide and the murder of the unborn just to keep peace with our friends, family, loved ones, and neighbors.
So, A .M. Brewster, why don't you comment on what I said? Maybe you think I'm off base somewhere in there?
No, you're 100 right. In fact, I was just kind of smiling to myself when Jay was sharing the theme verse for the very first message that he's going to preach at the conference because my second message was going to end with that theme verse and with the sister verse to that verse.
Because the first of my messages is basically the idea of your responsibility in your worship, but the second message has the idea of your responsibility in my worship. And the concept there being that God 100 expects us to be actively involved in the worship, which I define as everything that we do in life.
We are supposed to be intricately involved in each other. So when we are refusing to speak truth and love for the building up of that individual into the maturity of Christ, we are disobeying God, we're hating that person, and we're not doing what's best for them.
And too many people, in an attempt to speak lovingly, they don't speak truth. Either they don't speak it at all or they speak a lie. But the reality is you can speak truth and not be loving. We shouldn't do that, and that's a sin.
That's possible, though. But it's impossible to be loving if you're not going to speak the truth, either if you're not saying what's true or if you're lying. That is inherently unloving. It doesn't matter what tone of voice you use.
It doesn't matter how winsome you come across. That is absolutely impossible. The truth can be spoken without love, but you can't speak lovingly without truth. So I think you're 100 right, Chris. I believe that we, the church, absolutely must be speaking into each other's lives, the choices that we're making, sharpening each other, as the title of your show is, helping each other to grow in our conformity to Christ.
Amen.
And by the way, I wanted to make sure our listeners know a little bit more about this conference coming up as far as the very long and impressive roster of speakers. My very dear longtime friend Andrew Rapoport of Striving for Eternity Ministries is on the roster.
Kevin Hay, who I've had on the program, another very longtime friend who actually is a sponsor of this program. John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Dan Kreft, I have not yet interviewed.
And Dominic Rimaldi, I've had interaction with in the past. And right off the top of my head, I can't remember if I've interviewed Dominic yet, but I would love to do so.
Chris, I'm pretty sure you would remember if you had interviewed Dominic.
Well, one of the reasons I remember his name is because it happens to be the name of one of my former pastors, Mark Rimaldi. And he is also a Reformed Baptist. And I remember having some communication with Dominic years ago.
And if he's listening, I hope that he will receive or accept my invitation to be on the program, even to discuss this conference coming up. But can you tell us, Pastor Jay, why these men that are on the roster were specifically chosen?
We are a small church that is currently staffed by purely volunteers. We are working very hard to get out of debt. I am friends with one of our elders and a dear friend of mine, Wayne Floyd, attends, and he was friends with Andrew.
And I got a call from Andrew out of the blue one day asking if I would like some books, if I could just cover the shipping. And I was like, well, the shipping isn't even in our budget at this point. And we started talking about the heart of Bell Valley and what we care about and our passion to get the gospel and the good news of scripture out to the world.
And it was suggested, well, maybe there was something else we could do. And this was actually Andrew's idea. I am a prison pastor. And that's where I cut my teeth. That's what I know. I spent my time in the prisons and rehabs and homeless shelters.
I've never done anything like this before in my life. And it never occurred to me that I would even attempt such a thing. So I reached out to Andrew. And I was like, well, I love the idea of a conference.
Who do you know? But most of the guys that I know won't be out until, you know, 2045, 2055. They're good Christian brothers, but they won't be occupied for a few more minutes. And he started suggesting names.
Several of our lineup are Arizona pastors. Arizona is kind of in this weird space as the exodus from California has continued. We have become more and more bluish purple and more and more liberal. And so there is this just profound apathy and lack of interest.
So we wanted to make sure that we had some Arizona pastors out that kind of are coming from where our audience will be coming from and understanding the challenges. It sounds really good to say these are Christian responsibilities in a Christian world.
But how do you make them listen? You know, what do you do when people just look at you and say, oh, that's great. I don't care. Well, there's a hundred thousand overdoses last year. Tens of thousands of suicides.
Thirty percent of Gen Z is trapped in the gender cult. But that's fine. I don't care. It's just this profound apathy. And I know Arizona is not alone. But we wanted to make sure we had some Arizona pastors who are kind of in that realm.
And then Andrew, as with his extensive podcast and all he has done, I asked him, I was like, who are the best people that you think would be to teach? I don't care who it is, if it's, you know, the biggest name in podcasting or Christian theology or the wisest man that nobody's ever heard of.
We want truth.
Of course.
And he's actually the one who suggested them.
Of course, being the biggest name in Christian podcasting myself, I wasn't available. But, well, I in fact, it's amazing that Andrew shows up everywhere. I mean, I'm always seeing his name on the like a virus.
Well, sure.
Spreads through the air. He spreads through touch. He gets into everything.
Sure.
He'll be thrilled.
More pandemics like that. Amen. Amen.
Well, that was a good rescue there, Jay. We have Andrew in Dalton, Georgia. Greetings in Christ, dear brothers. What are some practical steps to walking in holiness and demonstrating the grace of God that the Lord has shown towards us when speaking with or simply living among lost friends and family members?
Well, not coming across as holier than thou as is a common charge among unbelievers. And, of course, that charge is often true that people come across that way. But sometimes it's just a slander and it's not even true.
It's an automatic response that many people who hate the gospel just hurl at you. Oh, you think you're better than me, don't you? But when people have accused me of that, I have often responded with a quote from R .C. Sproul.
And R .C. Sproul was quoting somebody when he said this, but he didn't mention who he was quoting. But the quote is, Christians are all beggars who are merely showing the other beggars where the food is.
And we have to remember that we are not innately superior to anyone. And in fact, we are the ones recognizing our own wickedness and a need of a savior. And if we were to keep that to ourselves, what a selfish and horrible thing that would be.
But anyway, why don't you respond to that, Jay, first and then we'll have A .M. Bruce to respond.
I would say if we really want to demonstrate Christian truth and that we are safe, one of the best ways to do it is to be Christians that suffer well. C .S. Lewis said, why do Christians suffer? Because nobody can do it better.
As we come into this time of more and more open hostility to the faith, there are it's going to be inevitable that real persecution is going to come. I know the church has been kind of obsessed with, well, they said a mean thing to me on Twitter.
Oh, I'm persecuted or, you know, I abused this guy for a half hour and then he punched me. Oh, I'm so persecuted. Well, no, then you're just being a jerk. But persecution is coming. Real hardship is coming.
Being locked up for your faith as the brother in Canada was for simply staying open during Covid. Being debanked, being cut off from your social and financial ties has already started and it's going to get worse.
Being those people who can do so, trusting in the grace and faith of God or trusting the grace of God and our faith that he has given us is one of the best ways I can think of.
And Aaron?
Well, first, I want to say just for your listeners who don't know me or Andrew very well, that was that was all in good fun. I love Andrew dearly and I'm thankful for his invitation. I mean, his personality is viral, though.
That's a very it's a true statement. But, you know, I love Andrew and I know that Andrew loves me. And Jesus said that the one way that people would truly know that we are his disciples is when we love each other.
The problem and it's not the problem with Jesus's words. It's the problem of our understanding is that we've allowed the world. We've allowed this unchristian world to influence our definition of love.
And it's gotten in it's in the church so much so where we where love is a tone or love is tolerating people or love is simply accepting people as they are or having to like even support what they're doing if we love them.
But love is really it's a pretty simple thing. It's wanting and working toward God's best interest in the life of that person, whether they they want it, whether they're deserving of it doesn't matter.
It's we are working towards God's best interest, which is going to take us back to Ephesians 415, where I absolutely must speak the truth in your life. So it's as we as we're in this world, right? There's that natural inclination to want to run from it, to want to hide, go run to spend as much time with Christians as we possibly can, because man out there, it's dark out there and there is persecution out there and it is rough out there.
There's the other extreme where we become very hateful where we stand on street corners, supposedly street preaching, but really professing Christians are just saying wicked and hateful and awful things and they're pushing away these people.
But then there's the perfect example of Jesus Christ who he met these people. He interacted with them. He didn't quote unquote just get them. No, he wanted them to get him. He wanted them to know him.
And so he spent time with them. He loved them. He met them in their need, but then he called them to follow him. He called them to change. And I seen it over and over again, really every single time that that dynamic relationship where that other individual genuinely believes that you care for them and that you're not trying to get something out of them and they're not a project to you.
They're not your enemy, but that despite your differences, you actually care for them. That overcomes that overpowers. So it makes them really just to drop their guard so often. And the last thing I'll say about this particular point is because, again, it's easy to get confused.
There's that old saying going around. No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care. Unfortunately, we've taken that accurate observation. And what we've said is I'm not allowed to tell them how much I know until I'm 100 percent certain that they know how much I care.
And then months, years go down the line and we've developed a relationship with them. But we're always questioning is now the right time for me to show them what I know. No, my friends. Truth in love.
Truth comes first in love and they go hand in hand. And sometimes it's in that speaking of that hard truth, because faithful are the wounds of a brother of a friend. It's speaking that hard truth where the people actually understand our love the most.
So that was how I'd answer that particular question. We've got to truly not see these people as enemies. We have to pity them. We have to love them. And we have to make that evident in our relationships with them.
Yeah, you seem to be describing when you were referring to the negative aspect of people prolonging to an absurd degree and length of time, their actual clear gospel witness to somebody because they want to make sure that that person knows that they are loved first.
And, of course, there's a difference between developing a friendship with your next door neighbor and sitting next to somebody on a train or something or meeting them in a waiting room when you may never see them again.
But people have taken what has become known as friendship evangelism and really twisted it and stretched it out to an extreme where the concept, and by the way, I know that my listeners have probably heard me repeat this line many times, being very critical of it.
But if you'll be patient with me, it is quoted to me so often that I try to refute it whenever possible. But that off-repeated line that is attributed to St. Francis of Assisi, whether he said it or not is not certain, but preach the gospel and when necessary use words.
In other words, it's really just predominantly the way we give an example of our Christian life to others that is supposed to lead them to Christ and maybe squeeze in the gospel if you have to. If Christ and his disciples went by that motto, they never would have been murdered, other than the fact, obviously, that God the Father ordained and orchestrated in His sovereignty the death of His Son on a human level.
If they were just being loving and being helpful and kind and compassionate and generous, they would not have been martyred. Am I making sense there?
You are, and this makes me think about Matthew chapter 5, where we're commanded to be lights in this world. And verse 16 says, let your light shine before men. Okay, that's what we're talking about. That's what the first part of that, I think that also equally bad quote is saying, you know, living the gospel, be a Christian, right?
Let your light shine before men. But here's the kicker. In such a way that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who's in heaven, we could also say, and think more accurately, think better of your Father who's in heaven.
Now, here's the thing. The world is filled with people doing decent, good things. I would even say the world is full of unbelievers, even, who do very Christian-looking things on the outside, and nobody is looking at that person going, praise God.
These philanthropists, Bill Gates or whatever, gives away millions of dollars or whatever. No one's looking at that and saying, praise God.
Could you pick up where you left off there? Because it's a very important point. We have to go to our midway break. Be patient with us, folks. Don't go away. We'll be right back. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.
Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.
I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai, in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005. One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area. Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight-volume commentary on the larger catechism.
Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century.
Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.
For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, and a toy in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.
When Iron Sharpens Iron radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron radio in the search bar.
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You need to read.
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Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ-honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally sound, theologically faithful church like Vail Valley Baptist Church in Vail, Arizona, I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the entire globe, and I've helped many people in my audience all over the planet Earth find churches that are biblically faithful, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that may be you too.
If you are spiritually homeless, as it were, you don't have a biblically faithful church where you are a member, well, please send me an email, no matter where in the world you live. Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I Need a Church in the subject line.
That's also the email address where you could send in a question to my guests A .M. Brewster and Jay Miller, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And before the break, as you may remember, Brother Brewster, you were talking about how being very benevolent and charitable and wonderful in the way you behave and share your love and time and resources with those around you, if it's not being done in the name of Jesus Christ and because of his love for you, if you're not making that known to others, people are not going to be giving the praise, honor, and glory due to God for this.
And if you want to pick up where you left off, sorry about that, I had you on mute.
Oh, not a problem, man. That's the key right there. Because all good in this world is by God's common grace. Human beings, we are totally depraved. There is nothing good in us. We will destroy ourselves when left to ourselves.
And it's God's common grace in this world that keeps us from being as bad as we can be and allows us to be quote unquote good in superficial ways. And there are a lot of people out there. I've known a lot of unbelievers who are sweet, wonderful people.
Of course, Romans 8 tells us it's impossible for them to please God when they're living in the flesh. So even their goodness is like filthy rags, and that's true of all of us. Therefore, that point being made, the reality is that when people out in the world are good, very few people look at that and say, oh, that's because of God.
In fact, the world has us believing that we are evolving to higher states of nobility and that the godless mindsets are altruistic and they're good and of themselves. In fact, a lot of people would make the argument that the only way you can be good is to stop believing in God and to stop being a religious zealot, and that's the only way you can be good.
And so therefore, the implication of Matthew 5, verse 16, let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works and glorify your father who is in heaven. They have to know who your father in heaven is.
They have to know about that relationship, why he's your father, what that means. Again, this is really important because the word Christian, what does that mean anymore in our world today? So a lot of communication, a lot of conversation has to happen before they're even going to understand what it means, who my father is, what my relationship to him is, in order then to actually glorify him.
And to glorify him means to think correctly about him, to give him the praise and adoration that's due him. And so there's also going to be requirements and conversations that need to be had in order to communicate that.
So that these people in my life who I know, when they see my good works, can then intelligently glorify my father who's in heaven. Whether Assisi has said it or not, everyone who says, you know, share the gospel, and if necessary, use words, they're missing a powerful implication from Matthew 5, verse 16.
Okay, we have Desmond in Soddy, Daisy, Tennessee, who has a question for Pastor Jay Miller. As a pastor, how do you give a balance in providing the truth in what you declare from the pulpit and teach at Bible studies, where there are people in your audience who may be offended because they are going through a particular season of trial, according to something that you are preaching against.
And they may think that you are talking about them, and they may think that you are being insensitive. How do we seek to be sensitive without candy-coating truth?
I have a really easy way of dealing with what I'm preaching about. I preach the next verse. Paul tells us that we are to preach the whole counsel of God. I'm on about a 40-year pace through the New Testament.
So, we get to the next verse, wherever we stop. The previous Sunday is where we start the next Sunday. That way, as people are going through, it's not Pastor Jay or Vail Valley Baptist Church that's choosing the topic.
Oh, Jay's picking on me because he knew that I did something that he doesn't like. We just teach the whole counsel of God. And I have never especially struggled with being concerned about being overly sensitive.
I tell people I'm as subtle as a cinder block. I'm not clever or wise enough or crafty enough to be one of these seeker-sensitive models. God's word is offensive at times. If you have a faithful church, there are going to be times you are walking out of that sanctuary, praising God, jumping up and down, cheering in absolute profound joy.
And there are going to be times you limp out of there, ugly crying, not rolling out your nose, just beat up by the truth of God's word. If you're not having both, you don't have a faithful pastor because the Bible does both.
The scriptures teach both blessed are the peacemaker, but also blessed are those who mourn and blessed are those who are persecuted. It's not guarantees of comfort and ease, but promises of righteousness and holiness and sanctification.
There's no guarantee that it's ever going to be easy. I simply go through the word and I teach it week after week, month after month, year after year, teaching whatever comes next and teaching it faithfully as I can, as God intended it to be taught.
Yeah, I can remember years ago. I was a fairly new Christian at the time, but I remember during one of my pastor's sermons on Long Island, a woman bolted up out of her pew and quickly walked near a trot out of the building.
And I went after her just because I was totally curious what was going on. She was obviously very upset. And she happened to be a friend of my late wife who was visiting. My wife was still living at the time.
And so I asked her, what's the matter? And she said, your pastor is talking about me and embarrassing me. He is talking about things that are going on in my life. And how dare he share these things in public?
And I said, did you ever even tell my pastor these things that you're talking about? No, but somehow he found out. And I said, my pastor is just doing expository preaching. He's just going verse by verse, chapter by chapter.
And I've had, and I shared with her, I've had that same experience, especially when I was very new in the faith, where I was like, wait a minute. Why is he talking about that? And we should consider that a time for rejoicing because the Holy Spirit may be awakening us to a problem that we need to evaluate in our lives.
And perhaps it's a sin that we need to repent from. Just like what happened, even though it wasn't a sermon. But when Nathan the prophet, after David had had Uriah the Hittite murdered on the battlefield to cover up the fact that David had impregnated his wife Bathsheba.
And Nathan the prophet approached him with the story that most of us know about the man who had a pet lamb that he cherished like a child and fed it at his own table and so on. And a rich man who was having a guest stole the lamb, butchered, killed it and served it to his guest.
And when David heard this, he was outraged and wanted that man brought to him so he could be executed. And Nathan said, you are the man. And so that was something that needed to be pointed out to David.
And even though that wasn't a sermon, that could be what God is doing with us. Am I correct, brothers? Aaron, if you want to start.
It's interesting because the self-focus, the selfishness that would allow us to get embarrassed in that moment, actually believing what potentially for some people would be a ludicrous idea that this pastor knows about my hidden sins and is telling everyone about it. Is the flip side of the humility that we need to have where we say, God, open up my eyes and show me wondrous things from my law.
Like, I imagine that if Nathan the prophet were there talking to David, that a truly God-loving individual who is thinking along those lines would have at that moment been thinking to himself, wow, you know what?
I've got something to learn from that. I've done something that could fit that parable. But, you know, David didn't catch it. David was furious at this man. So that we personally, not to your, you know, obviously not to your listeners question, but we personally need to have the humility to say, I have something I need to learn from this versus that pride that says, how dare he suggest I have something to learn from this.
Anything to follow up with, Jay?
I agree with Aaron wholeheartedly. So much of scripture has become abstract stories to the people sitting in the pews. They listen to the pastor preach and they say, yeah, yeah, I really should tell my neighbor about that particular sin, how terrible it is, ignoring the depravity in their own heart.
To be faithful Christians is to proclaim the gospel, the good news that Jesus Christ came to save sinners. But it's also to look to ourselves and say, and I am that sinner. God be merciful to me. We have to set aside the justification and the rationalization and the ego and look to our own hearts honestly and say there is nothing good within me.
The only thing of any value that I have is Christ and Christ alone. And the only difference between the very best of us church folk and the very worst of the world is Christ. You take Christ out of me and I become the worst of them.
You give them Christ and they become the best of us. Amen.
Amen. And we have Alec from Greece, New York. How can we spread the gospel where we work without violating God's command to us not to steal from our employers? And obviously this person is talking about stealing time from our employers, which people can do if they are a Christian.
When I say they can do it, I don't mean they're supposed to be doing it. I mean that sometimes a person who's a Christian can get caught up in the moment evangelizing a friend and they wind up not doing their job and in essence steal from their employers.
But any suggestions? Since Jay spoke last, why don't you start off with that, Aaron?
When people ask me that question, I generally reply with, well, I'm assuming you talk about non-work related things with your fellow employees. And most of those conversations are not considered inappropriate by you, the other employee, or by your boss.
In fact, you may have gotten into offhanded conversations with your bosses. In fact, modern workplaces are definitely trying to engender relationships among the people who are working there and so on and so forth.
So I think we can all assume that whether you're making hamburgers on a line or you are working in cubicles, there are legitimate times for you to get into conversation with the people that you work with.
So I think the question about stealing time, we obviously have to be careful with that. We have to be able to learn to, like in any of our conversations, limit that and make it appropriate and that we're obviously accomplishing what we're supposed to be accomplishing.
But pushing that aside, I just say that the reason we find it difficult to talk about God at work, and please understand I'm preaching to me here. I think that's another good way to your previous listener's request.
One of the best ways to help people not get offended is when you just share with them that this is what God is teaching me. So I'm preaching to myself when I say that the reason that God is not one of the first things that I talk about in certain scenarios is the fact that I don't love God as much as I love the other stuff that I am talking about.
One might be my family, it might be a sports team, it might be small talk about the weather, whatever the case may be, I love that topic more than I love the topic of Jesus Christ. So I think if you have an individual who truly loves the Lord, who truly loves the person standing across from them, knowing that they need to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, and who is going to bring that in organically into natural conversations that happen within the workplace, it's going to happen, and I think it's going to happen in really beautiful ways.
And Jay?
I would say it's a matter of priority, as kind of what Aaron alluded to. Are you a bricklayer, or are you a Christian who happens to be a bricklayer? Are you a doctor, or are you a Christian who happens to be given the gift to be a doctor?
First and foremost, in all things, we are Christian. We are called to preach the gospel, but every word that comes out of our mouth is called to be taken captive to the knowledge of Christ. All we do should reflect and glorify God.
While we should take time away to preach the gospel to people, there should never be a question of, are we Christian? And I think that comes up a lot more than, oh, I'm spending too much time telling people about Jesus at work.
And more, we get those, oh, isn't this hilarious? We've worked together for 15 years, and neither of us knew we were a Christian. I would say proclaim the gospel, always, in all you do, in word and thought and deed.
And also do that in a way that glorifies God. As Peter would say, that you do that work for the glory of God, not for the glory of men. And that will reflect and will proclaim his word as well.
Now, what if you have an employer who hates Christianity? He might not actually say that, but in essence, people who are opposed to the biblical teachings of Christ and his gospel, they do hate Christianity, whether they say that or not.
But your boss pulls you aside and says, I hear you've been talking about that religious junk. If you're going to work for me, you can't do that at all on the job. Do we have to quit, or do we just know that we have to wait until work is over?
And we punch that card, that time clock, and then we could share in our personal lives the gospel with those with whom we work or what have you. Is that a biblical alternative?
I think there are a number of facets to consider in that question. One is, I guess from more of a practical standpoint, there is, by God's grace in our country, there are laws that do protect our religious freedoms.
So if an individual is going to try to fire us because of those religious beliefs that we have, he's going to have a pretty hard time. In a court of law or an unemployment hearing, being able to really justify that, they're going to end up getting in a lot of trouble.
But that's just kind of more of a practical observation. Beyond that, though, there are a couple different ways of looking at it. On one side, you have the we must obey God rather than man. Of course, if you're going to do that, you have to be prepared like the apostles were to get drug in before the magistrates and to be beaten and to be kicked out of the city.
So you have to be prepared to suffer the consequences of that. But I think that's an appropriate thing to do if you are doing it to God's honor and glory in a way that would please him. The other side, I think, and I don't think it's inappropriate.
The other side is to try to build relationships outside of work. When people ask questions, they say, you know, it's a really great question, and I'd love to give you some more information about that.
I think I've had some life experiences that can kind of maybe speak into that, what you're saying. Or I've learned some things that could be valuable for you. How about we meet after work or sometime and grab a coffee?
I wouldn't do that. I don't drink coffee, but that's what normal people do.
So how long have you been a Mormon?
So that's one thing there. But then even public school teachers, I have public school teacher friends who they will have a Bible on their desk. Or when they have a student come up to them and ask them a question about God, they have to answer it.
So again, if you're living your life in such a way that people can see your good works and are compelled to glorify your father who's in heaven, those questions are going to come up. And it's not going to be you going around and necessarily putting up soap boxes to go preach all the time.
It's going to be people coming to you and asking you the same legitimate questions that they're asking their co-workers. And when they ask their co-workers, man, my wife and I had a knock-down, drag-out fight last night.
What do you do in situations like that? And they just go ahead and get around to you. Your answer is going to have to do with scripture. It's going to have to do with the gospel and Jesus Christ. And again, the boss at that point is going to have a really difficult time being able to stand by his idle threat.
Now, when you say a teacher has to answer the question of a student about the Bible that he sees on your desk, I'm assuming that you mean that the teacher should say something like, well, after class I'll tell you exactly what it's about.
I mean isn't that more of an approach that's conducive with not unnecessarily being accused of proselytizing children? Because you're obviously talking about a secular school where the Christian teacher is.
I've never taught in a public school, but I've met individuals who have friends who have taken various approaches to that. Sometimes they do have that after-school thing. But oftentimes, again, in the public school system, they're actually teaching about lots of different religions.
Even if they don't call them that.
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But even the ones that they actually call, I mean, they're teaching on what Muslims believe. They're teaching on what Taoists believe. So for them to say, well, you know, Christians believe such and such.
Again, the world hates it, and you're going to get some pushback for that. But it's not inappropriate, and it's right in line with what you've been called to do as a teacher.
Yeah, I remember how very disappointed I was recently when I saw a conversation with Dana White, who is the UFC president, Ultimate Fighting Championship. And they have a reputation that apparently he has fostered and instilled in the identity of UFC that we don't muzzle our athletes.
If you believe passionately in the candidacy of Donald Trump, then you can speak your mind. And if you're a liberal and you're in favor of Joe Biden, I'm not going to tell you you can't talk about that publicly.
But all of a sudden, the fighter after the fight's over, who won the fight, starts praising Jesus. He got upset about it, and he said, you got to leave that at home. That really bothered me because, you know, you're talking about the man isn't evangelizing somebody as he's beating their skull into the ground.
It was after the fight was over. And he was just like people thank their parents. They thank the whole host of people. They thank their spouses. Why not thank, if you're truly a Christian, you would think he would admire somebody, even if he disagreed with their faith, that he would admire them for giving tribute to who they believed the 100 percent of the praise, honor and glory was due.
But just an odd thing about him anyway. But perhaps he will eventually change. And even more importantly, hopefully he'll get saved since he does obviously have some evangelical Christians working for fighting for U .S .C..
We have to go to our final break. And if anybody listening has a question of your own, please send it to Chris Owens. And a gmail dot com is always give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.
Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.
I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love. Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.
I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.
He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the Internet where folk won't be led astray.
I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one-time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com, where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com.
This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee. Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.
Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers, which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God. If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.
Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin. Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org. This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.
James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.
And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post-Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding. No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post-Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.
All his work is done by hand, from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching. Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my Nestle All in 28th edition, with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift.
The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome. Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one-of-a-kind work of art.
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Armored Republic exists to equip free men with tools of liberty to defend God-given rights against the twin threats of tyranny and chaos. If you own a rifle to resist tyrants and criminals, then you should own body armor and a med kit for the same reasons.
A rifle stops evil, body armor and a med kit keep you in the fight and preserve your life. Armored Republic is a body of free craftsmen united to create tools of liberty. We are honored to be your armorsmith of choice.
Civilian ownership of body armor is about increasing decentralized power and, by comparison, reducing the advantages of centralized power. The danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king.
As Americans, we hate the word king applied to any mere man. We are Armored Republic, and in a republic, there is no king but Christ. Arm yourself with tools of liberty at armoredrepublic .com.
Chris Arnzen here, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I strongly recommend a church I've been recommending as far back as the 1980s, Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship God in spirit and truth.
They endeavor to maintain a God-centered focus and to protect worship from the intrusion of carnal entertainments and distractions. Reading, preaching, and hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbc-nj .org. That's gcbc-nj .org. Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654. Tell Pastor Dunn you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight-volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.
It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology. Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
For details on the eight-volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com. For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.
Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you.
When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co-host of the Just Thinking Podcast, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Andrew Rapport, the founder and executive director at Striving for Eternity Ministries, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Mark Romaldi, pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Christopher Cookston, pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.
Greetings, this is Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group, and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program. SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.
We can be reached at securecommgroup .com, that's securecommgroup .com. But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters, of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sensed that same God-given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God. That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area, or Queens, or Brooklyn, or the Bronx, in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com, that's nhpbc .com.
You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672, that's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
And don't forget, folks, Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco Associates, and if you are the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the United States, please call my longtime dear friend, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law at the law firm of Buttafuoco Associates at 1 -800-NOW-HURT, 1 -800-NOW-HURT, or visit his website, 1 -800-NOW-HURT .com, 1 -800-NOW-HURT .com.
Make sure you mention that you heard about Buttafuoco Associates from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio. We're now back with my guests, A .M. Brewster, a biblical counselor, and J. Miller, a Reformed Baptist pastor in Vail, Arizona.
And we are talking about Christian responsibility in an unchristian world. And if you have a question, submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.
I'd like each of you from your own roles and duties and experiences in life, first you, Jay, as a pastor, and then Aaron as a biblical counselor, to provide for us the most frequent failures in regard to obeying this concept of being responsible Christians in an unchristian world that you most frequently confront and have to provide counsel for and also perhaps even church discipline.
But if you could start, Pastor Jay Miller, in your role as a pastor.
I think one of our biggest problems is our failure to see other human beings as people. It is so easy within our lives to walk through the world and see people as set pieces, to forget just the profound suffering and pain that the world is going through right now.
You know, we look to the other side of the aisle and say, oh, it's just a bunch of libtards. Or we look to the guy sitting on the street corner. Well, that's just a drunk and a junkie. So much of what we see in the world right now is pain management.
People are hurting so badly and they have no idea how to fix it. They don't know what to do and they're trying everything they can. Drugs, alcohol, money, sex, power, porn, anything you can think of to just make that emptiness go away.
And we look at them and we forget that it's by God's grace that we're not there. This conference, I hope if people take anything away from it, it's to never forget that Philippians 2 encompasses an entire life.
We are to see people as more important than ourselves. We are not the most important person in our life. Every person we run across in the world is more important than us because we are not our own. We belong body, soul, and spirit to the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are the redeemed, the paid for. He is our kurios, our master, our owner. And we are his doulos, his slaves. There is no us. As we look to those out there, we're called to be about our master's work, not our own comfort.
And I would hope as people walk away from this conference, they do so with a fire ignited in their belly to be out proclaiming the gospel of salvation and the hope that can only be found in Christ, because people need it so desperately now more than ever as this world runs from God.
They aren't getting the cultural Christianity that might lead them into a church. We've got to be out there proclaiming the gospel.
Actually, Chris, I have to admit, I need you to ask the question again. As you were explaining it, somebody walked into our house, and they were announcing their entrance, and my dog started barking, and I muted myself.
Well, I was asking Jay, as a pastor, how has he most frequently witnessed the concept of being responsible Christians in an unchristian world? And how that has most often been a failure in the lives of Christians.
And now as a biblical counselor, although, of course, pastors should always be biblical counselors in addition to being pastors, but in your specific role as a biblical counselor, what is the most frequent examples that you confront where people are failing at being responsible Christians in an unchristian world?
So my second message at the conference is going to be about your responsibility in my worship, or our responsibility in each other's worship. But I'm never going to preach that message until I preach the first one, which is about our responsibility.
What is true, genuine worship to God? What does that look like? And so, most of what I'm interacting with, oftentimes, are parents coming to me whose children are going off the rails. And what we oftentimes find is that parents desperately wanting to influence their children, yet the truth from God's Word has been very light in their family.
It's been very superficial in their family. The parents aren't living a dynamic, worshipful relationship with Jesus Christ. And if they're not doing that, they can't influence the world. I believe that the world is influencing the church way more than the church is influencing the world.
And that's not a failure of God's Word. His Word does not return void. That's not a failure of the Holy Spirit who convicts us of sin, righteousness, and judgment. That is a failure of us professing believers who are allowing, who are walking with the sinners, and we're standing with the ungodly, and we're sitting with the scorners, and we are being more influenced by them.
And so, our ability to live like Christians in an un-Christian world, our responsibilities have to start, first and foremost, with us recognizing that God is not just our Savior. He is our King, and He has expectations for our lives.
And one of the taglines for my podcast is recognizing the fact that parenting is just one way that we worship God. Working at your job is just one way that you worship God. And when we submit all of those things to God as an act of worship, we're going to start having a lot more impactful influence in the lives of the people that God has in our lives.
Something you said reminded me of a quote. I'm not sure if it was C .S. Lewis. I think it was. But a complaint about how the world has had more influence on the church than the church has had on the world.
This person, who I think was Lewis, said, The church has permeated the world like a mouse has permeated a cat. And it's that constant battle or tightrope walk where the church and Christians in the church are perhaps rightfully trying to be relevant.
You know, we are not imitating, or at least I don't think we should be imitating our Amish neighbors. You know, there may be a lot to admire the Amish for, but I believe it is a religious cult. But we're to be relevant, but at the same time, we are not to distort the gospel message and the inerrant scriptures by making them more appealing and palatable to the desires and appetites of the lost.
We're not to seek growth in our congregations by hanging sacks of goat food outside the windows of the church. There are already going to be goats in your church, unintentionally, and we shouldn't be catering to the tastes and desires and appetites of the world just for the sake of church growth and being relevant.
And so that's something that we've always got to remember. Well, I'd like each of you to summarize what you each want most to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today. And we'll start with you, Pastor Jay.
As I said, we are the redeemed. We are the bought ones. Bought and paid for, not with silver or gold, but with the precious blood of the Lamb. And that identity should impact everything we do. Every thought, every action, every choice.
That we belong to our Master, and we are called to be about His work. And His work is to proclaim the gospel, to go forth to all creation and teach all that He has taught us. The things that make people jump up and down and say, Yay, God is love!
And the scary things that the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and all unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth. That we should be out there proclaiming it and dedicating our lives to it.
Because that's the only life worth dedicating anything to. There's nothing left of any value beyond that.
Honestly, I can't add to that too much. I think that was fantastic. So I'm just going to say, I think that your listeners need to do a couple things. They should definitely go to strivingforeternity .org.
One of the things that they'll find there is that they'll find a number of podcasts in the Christian podcast community that could meet them in their need. They will also learn about Andrew and his ministry because he likes to take and make conferences happen for small churches that otherwise couldn't make them happen.
So I think that's a lot of churches out there would be really interested in getting to know him and how they can partner with him. But if they go to strivingforeternity .org slash veil, V-A-I-L, they can learn more about this conference and they can sign up, Lord willing, and they can join us there at the beginning of August.
And I really encourage them to do that. And then also, too, while you're thinking about it, go to evermindministries, not nevermind, but evermindministries .com and download the Evermind app to get some more encouragement to how to worship God in this world.
And don't forget about Vail Valley Baptist Church's website for Vail Valley Baptist Church in Vail, Arizona. Vailvalleybaptistchurch .org Vailvalleybaptistchurch .org. Vail is spelled V-A-I-L. Do you have a separate website for the conference coming up?
Hello, Pastor Jay. Do you have a separate website for...
Just our event page. But the easiest way to get to that is to go to veilvalleybaptistchurch .org and right on our homepage, right at the very top, click on the link to the conference and it'll take you right there.
Alrighty, well, I want to thank you both for doing such an exquisite job as my guest today. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.