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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And welcome to the dividing line Thursday afternoon eight seven seven seven five three three three four one busy busy busy busy day

Haven't nailed this down yet But I got an email Was be

I was being interviewed here in the very same studio we do the program for about an hour today on the subject of Islam and Went well, and I went back to my desk and there was an email from Shabir Ali and Shabir was

Letting me know he's going to be in London at the same time. I'm going to be in London in November would

I like to debate and Just so happens that the day that he wants to debate

I can debate So we are now discussing what we'd like to debate and what does that mean?

that means for moderated public debates the 11th 13th 15th and 20th

One was Shabir Ali one was Sofiqar Ali Shah Sami Zaatari and Adam Rashid on all sorts different topics and Hopefully Lord willing a radio program as well in the midst of all that including flying to England flying back to the

United States It's going to be an absolutely insane period of time.

I'm sorry Isn't there a conference in Durham or something like that? That's after all of this.

They're gonna they're gonna get the stuttering Brain -dead Mormons what?

Yeah, that's gonna be Wow yikes Yeah as night just put it in channel, that's the

Iron Man schedule, yeah, it's the Iron Man debating schedule so continue to pray please for the

London trip and for the preparations, I unfortunately have a

Huge amount of stuff to do between now and then that has nothing to do with the debates

I am working on the King James only controversy right now. I I Am absolutely amazed at the amount of information in that book.

I wrote it I I Must have lived that subject.

In fact, I remember now that I did I remember I was in a bike race that year

I was in the Magic Circle bike challenge and a storm hit us about 20 miles in and I turned around went back.

I would have pressed through it. But the only thought I had was I Have to stay well to write this book.

I Remember that and now going back through it having to read every word. Did you know

I caught a obvious blatant typo that has been there since 1994 when

I wrote it today Wow The word the repeated twice maybe back then word didn't mark those things or something

But you know Julius went through that thing with a fine -toothed comb

The fact that we hadn't caught that before is Very very surprising to me. Well, you mentioned this to me this morning and I remember back then you

Folks made I know back then the ministry was operating out of my house and I wrote that in The bedroom you wrote that in the front bedroom and you wrote it as I recall right after the air conditioner in the house

Went out in August and I didn't have the money to put to repair the air conditioner

We went and got these little window air conditioners. Oh, you had a fan in the in the doorway

He had an air conditioner. I think over your head Blaring at you and you would literally be walking up and down the hallways every time you come out of there.

You'd be yammering about something and It was kind of on the tails dovetail with New Age Bible verses refuted was in there somewhere well, yeah that because that that that had been off that had been that that early that summer when one of our volunteers called right because rippling was on KRDS here locally and that's when

I called in and that's resulted in the in the infamous Gail rippling or debate on KRDS that was just absolutely amazing.

And then we did New Age Bible versions refuted and My editor at Bethany house, he's no longer with Bethany house

I guess I can mention his name Steve Lobby and I were on the phone About letters to a Mormon elder and I started telling him about how we were getting requests from bookstores all over the

United States this little booklet that I had written in reference, you know refuting New Age Bible versions and all sudden it got quiet on the phone and At the very same time we both went sounds like a book there.

Doesn't it? Yeah And I think I had a contract within a couple days. I can't remember how long but you were in the zone four months long

Time four months long. It took me four months to write the book. I mean it was just you you were zeroed in With a laser and you wouldn't let it go

Well, no, there's no two ways about that And now that I'm working through it and going through these end notes folks

If you don't read the end notes my books you ain't you ain't you're wasting your money because They're actually there's been one time and it this embarrasses me

But I have encountered one thing that I was listening to Our dear friend

Rosie has been reading articles for me so I can listen these things while I'm writing We need to pray for Rosie.

I just went in channel found out she's in the hospital So we're gonna be praying for Rosie and she has been reading these articles for me and I heard her

Reading this article and there was this really cool thing in this article. I said, man, I'm gonna have to add that to the book

So I'm sitting there reading along in the book. It was already there Yeah, I had known it

I found it I wrote it and I forgot it Come completely.

I mean to the point where you know Most of the time when you forget something from the past when you encounter it again, you go.

Oh, yeah Yeah, now this one was mmm. Those brain cells croaked after 40

I remember telling my parents I was in junior high school, you know after age 35, it was like 10 ,000 brain cells a day and That was the those that's where that went

It's sad, but man, I'll tell you That's all to get back to what

I'm trying to say. And that is it is taking for ever to do this work

I Sent a single footnote. It's a fairly lengthy footnote, but it's only one paragraph.

So it's not that big I sent a single footnote to Bethany house Night before last or night before that and I said this single footnote took me 34 minutes

To update and why because the fonts we used in 1994 are no longer standard fonts

In fact, I've mentioned this before but I typeset that book They didn't have anybody

Bethany house at the time that could do that amount of Greek and Hebrew So I typeset the whole thing myself I know

I wrote it, but I did all the typesetting indexing page numbering all the all the Tables everything that was all me

That all came out of that. What was it called laser? Late what the laser master laser master

That's right after one without laser master 1000 DPI Which Bethany bought for me at that time the laser master 1000

DPI printer and that came I had to print that out on these Reams of paper and then very carefully send them off to To Bethany house, and that's how the book was typeset.

I did it myself. They didn't do it back there So the problem is I've still got all those files and they're the exact files that were typeset

But now the fonts have changed the Greek and the Hebrew fonts have changed and no everyone said well

You could just write a script doesn't work that way. They do not map appropriately now

Unicode is the standard and so I have to go into every single bit of Greek and Hebrew and Riki either retype it in or sometimes thankfully

I can bring up libronics and I've got the TR.

I've got the modern text. I can pull the TR. Unfortunately has no Accent marks as I still got insert them, but at least

I get most of it But sometimes I can pull out of a Unicode text and and save myself a lot of time, but most the time

I can And right now I'm having problem with all the Hebrew the Hebrew is not displaying properly And I just fired off an email that so the point is it's taken me forever, and it's gonna be worth it

I've added some really neat new stuff to the book And there's a whole section on Multifocality and the reason we can we can trust the

New Testament, and it's gonna be well worth your you're getting And hopefully that will also allow it to be used as a

Textbook as it continues to be used as a textbook I think I mentioned that just a couple months ago someone pointed me to the

Southern Baptist Seminary Newsletter type thing around the front page this lady a young girl

Well, you know 20 -something sitting on a bench reading a book there on the campus, and if you zoom in real careful picture

It's a King James only controversy So the book has been very very well received hopefully the second edition will extend its life even longer and but it's still going to Gonna gonna take a long time

And I still have the Potter's Freedom stuff to do and this is all before I can really get into preparing for London Which is coming at me like a freight train, so please?

Pray for us in this this situation Because obviously having this these opportunities in London is going to be extremely

Extremely useful extremely helpful As well, so that's what is Coming up so with that.

Let's get back into let's see if maybe you know We really pressed on and I stopped myself from commenting all the time

We might actually get through this debate But we can also take your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one as well

And in fact last time we had a phone call, and I didn't get to it, but I Don't want to avoid all of the subjects so Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number going back to the 1993?

debate with Patrick Madrid Our God's words now I don't want to give anyone the false impression as I think you were trying to do earlier that I believe that the

Catholic Church Rendered the Bible as inspired. You know that that is not the Catholic position. You know mr.

White that the Catholic Church does not claim to have made the the scriptures canonical simply because she chose those books that is

Yeah, except what how what's what's your alternative? I mean of course the

Catholic Church doesn't render them inspired, but you can't is not has not his entire argument bed I can't know what's inspired list the

Catholic Church tells me So isn't that my my ultimate authority I? Would think that it is and the canonical authority again

Isn't it Rome's role as the Bride of Christ to have this power in this authority?

You know What's what's the alternative? That's that's what I would like to know in light of the questions that he's already been asked a red herring

It's false the Catholic Church recognized the canon of scripture the

Catholic Church Received the word that was given to her by her husband Jesus Christ and as you well know the church

Hears and recognizes the voice of her husband, so it is the church mr..

White I assert who? recognize I Have 24 seconds left in two minutes.

I have 24 seconds left the church Recognizes her husband's voice and she preaches that to the world you if you reject the church have to fall back on something else

What will it be the moratorium fragment the church fathers? This or that Greek scholar perhaps your own personal interpretation you have to tell us tonight.

What your authority is mr.. Mr.. White yeah, so Isn't aren't those the things that Rome refers to?

Again, he's he's trying to create a dichotomy here and say you need to have an ultimate authority like mine

That can't be questioned you need to be just as blind in your allegiance To an ultimate authority as the more the missionary is who's praying to receive the testimony of the

Book of Mormon is true or whatever else you know this blind ultimate authority type thing is and We've already seen that This kind of argumentation is extremely circular, but you can preach it real well

And and I get the feeling that that's what Patrick was doing at this point First of all in sticking to the actual question that I asked we're told that the

Old Testament Church by the way But I guess that was the white question. Yes. He'd he immediately abandoned

The question that I asked and went off after after me again, and the question

I had asked was how does the believing Jew know? what is and what is that scripture 50 years before before Christ and His response was the

Old Testament Church That's that's that's what his response was told the man that Isaiah and 2nd

Chronicles were scripture. That's interesting because Does that mean the Old Testament Church was infallible that is the same

Old Testament Church atop the Corban rule? I think yes same Old Testament Church Oh, that's the same

Old Testament Church that rejected the apocryphal books and never believe their scripture But you say that they are scripture in place someone under the anathema doesn't believe those things

So I guess the Old Testament Church was fallible Which means you can have a fallible authority to tell you that something scripture because it's very plain that the

Lord Jesus held everyone responsible For reading scripture in fact in Matthew chapter 22.

He said to the Sadducees, but but about the resurrection of the dead Have you not read what God said to you and mr..

Madrid's keep saying? What's your authority listen to what Jesus says? He says these men have you not read what

God said to you if God speaks to you You do not ask him for his business card.

Just prove. Mr.. Madrid's position, and he can't even tell us Business card and there

God's word is they are new sauce God breathes. It's his speaking

Mr.. White the only thing worse than beating a dead horse is beating the wrong dead horse, and I've used that line before Yeah, I wish you had learned from it

You keep going around in circles, you're not giving us an answer you keep saying that now remember this was my question to him

Now I've just pointed out that the Old Testament Magisterium or the Old Testament Church did not have the same canon that he has

I just point out that his answer Doesn't answer the question now is he gonna go back and address that no he has decided to turn the question

Against me he wants to argue about ultimate authorities and Get into you know what you get into with a

Mormon or something like that You know prophet versus Pope or something like that, but he's not actually dealing with the question

I guess on this matter He's just gonna let the question fly and just admit that he really doesn't have a meaningful answer for when

God speaks to us We know his voice But that's what I said about the church And you'd have to show me where the Bible teaches that every individual

Christian is going to know and recognize Scripture in all its parts you talked earlier about the

Mormon now the Mormon claims that God is witnessing to him so Mr.. White this is

Mormonism that you're putting forth here You are asserting that it's you're burning in the bosom perhaps if you like that phraseology now of course

I never said anything even remotely like this. This is just really really really cheap shallow debating tricks here that again, hopefully

The serious person can see that he's getting a little bit desperate this it's what you think

Should be in Scripture. I think ultimately you are like a ship cut adrift You have no anchor you have no way of knowing other than the fact that you accept the church's teaching, but you won't admit it

Now I just pointed out that actually the church is teaching as opposed to the Jewish Magisterium He just let all that fly just just just ignored it so that question

He did not provide a meaningful response to and therefore the point is taken I guess

III I've never heard a meaningful response for Roman Catholic. I don't think they have one But again remember it's mr..

Madrid who believes himself to be Undefeated on these issues so just just pointing out that here is a clear aspect of the debate where mr..

Madrid Just simply basically through the use of really shallow and cheap debating tricks avoided actually responding to the question

My question Catholics and Protestants agree that scripture gets its authority from God and the

Holy Spirit Witnesses as to which books belong in the Bible whether he does so corporately

To the church or privately to each individual notice the false dichotomy I've never denied the corporate role of the church in the recognition of Scripture, I just don't identify the script the church is

Rome Because there was no papacy and so on so forth at this period of time as modern

Roman Catholicism would have it But notice again the false dichotomy they they have to do this They have to create a straw man and say there is no middle ground

There is no idea of a church that it's either us, or it's you alone the woods with your

Bible There can be no middle ground. This is a common error of modern Roman Catholicism Christian Would you admit that by appealing to the witness of the

Holy Spirit? And by your earlier admission that you would appeal to the testimony of the early

Christians Would you admit that you are appealing to something outside of scripture itself? To know with an infallible certitude what scripture is now again notice.

We are still following the Catholic answers Get off sola scriptura get on to the canon so that someone

Cannot even do a meaningful presentation on it and just make it look like they have no answers to a different subject

Routine this is something that I believe that they came up with Years and years ago was sort of a backup plan and and that's what we're pursuing here

It's very interesting that when Sola scriptura is debated against Catholic answers and others

When the sufficiency of scripture to function as the sole rule of faith of the church is established

The argument very quickly turns away from the actual topic of the debate to the issue of well canon we've talked about canon

They are related issues, but they are not the same issues not be glad to debate canon issues with mr.

Madrid too, but now mr. Madrid is saying well look you're you're violating sola scriptura

You're violating sola scriptura with regards to the canon of scripture itself and hence you are being inconsistent mr.

White now of course if he wants to try to again especially if you haven't listened to what's beforehand,

I'm just pointing out some of the Necessary applications here's and the necessary results of this for Madrid This would have to mean that the can itself is the honest off the can itself is an article of Revelation and That means that even though Rome claims that Revelation ended with the last of the

Apostles that actually Revelation came in April of 1546 to the Council of Trent That gives us the dogmatic definition of the canon of scripture itself.

He's not gonna say any of those things But these are the necessary applications Necessary results of this form of argumentation well, you know it's interesting

We could with much profit point out that mr. Madrid's argument is completely circular and in fact

I will do that in just a moment But am I violating sola scriptura to say for example with reference to the gospel of Thomas or some other?

Gnostic writing of the second century That well you look at it, and you see that it's contradictory to scripture

You see that no one's ever believed that it was scripture, and hence you don't believe that it is scripture Is that a violation of sola scriptura it seems that mr..

Madrid is saying that it is I? Am but is it? Now to catch that he just decided to all right.

I'm just gonna throw in some comments you know in the middle of your two -minute response, and That that's that that's okay, isn't it interesting that the

Apostles themselves utilize the very same standards For example

Paul and recognizing that there is truth outside of scripture quotes from pagan philosophers

But no one would think that Paul was by state citing a pagan philosopher adding it to the canon of scripture was he no

He didn't accept it on what basis? On what basis did did

Paul or Peter any of the others not accept the Old Testament pseudepigrapha? Because Rome said it didn't belong there because there was some infallible

Old Testament Church Not at all they did not utilize the standards mr.. Madrid does

Well I guess that's your admission and that you can't answer the question mr.. White now of course again

This is where you know Patrick was not nice in this debate at all. He was he was nasty

He was snippy he was insulting And all in the process of using cheap debating tricks that actually don't mean anything

I could have that should have been my response to what he said In previous question

I should have said well given that you're now asking me a question rather than actually answering mine I guess that means you don't have any meaningful response

Generally unless it gets it sort of degenerates. I sort of let the the audience

Decide that issue themselves they can tell when someone can and cannot answer a question and when you have to do this kind of you know cheap debating trick type thing

It pretty much indicates That you don't really have confidence that what you're saying is actually

True enough to have any kind of an impact upon upon the audience it is interesting

I was just thinking about the fact that We did have these this odd Across the

Tiber explosion over the past couple days with the art Sippo and Matthew Bellisario and Especially Sippo and his

Saying that I was trying to hijack some some Catholic into some unfair debate or something like that and it was sort of fun pointing out that a

Large number of my first debates against Roman Catholics were moderated by Patrick Madrid actually

Who of course never kept anybody from behaving like a complete jerk?

Patrick was always a very very bad moderator all he did was announce times But anybody could get away with murder while he was quote -unquote the moderator art

Sippo Patrick Madrid was the moderator for the debate with art Sippo and art

Sippo got away with the most outrageous and childish behavior during that debate and Madrid did nothing about it.

He said nothing about he made no corrective No corrective actions and the first debate that I did with Jerry Matitix in Long Beach in 1990

It took and I went back and listened to it later Jerry had a 20 -minute opening statement.

It took 14 minutes Before he ever mentioned the topic of the debate now they're buds

They both work for Catholic answers but You know

Actually now I think about it that that was the exact same situation at the Staples debate on papal infallibility is you also had a

Catholic answers staffer as the quote -unquote moderator and Did he ever stop?

Staples from just trompling all over trompling trampling stop stomping and trampling.

That's trompling That's a new word. Just made that one up. I'll put it in the book someplace I've been editing far too many end notes

I'm just losing it, but did he do anything to stop Staples from just violating every rule in the book now?

Even though he stood there when I talked with Staples about what cross -examination is supposed to be

I said have you seen my debate with Mitch Packwood? Yes, I saw your debate. That's the type of cross -examination.

We're talking about we're talking about the legal type You know quick answers, you know, but get all right. I can do that.

Oh, no problem. No problem So what does he do when he gets up there? He spends the first four minutes Making further statements

Declare it to go back over stuff. He didn't get a chance to get over beforehand didn't even ask a question and Had the moderator

Sat there had he listened did he know of course you do anything about no so is it funny that Art Sippo and People like him would say you're trying to you're trying to get a

Protestant Moderator in a Protestant context so you can hijack Roman Catholic blah blah blah when the reality has been exactly the opposite of that When we've had

Roman Catholic moderators, they've done nothing when the Roman Catholic was behaving

Completely in error and I can guarantee you something if Art Sippo Behaved like Art Sippo behaved in our debate in Toledo in 1991

While Bill Shishko was moderating He would have been shut down so fast that his head would have spun and rightly so and completely rightly so so it's it's pretty pretty interesting to to compare the

Approaches of the two sides on this particular issue now we've got a phone caller and So we're gonna look

I think we're probably due here is go ahead and look at taking our break and once we get a chance to get on the other side then we'll go ahead and sort of take a

Phone call break that means during the break if you did want to get in eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

Is the phone number and then we'll pick up with? Patrick we're good after that we'll be right back

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And welcome back to the dividing line I always feel like I need to speak more slowly

With that particular that particular rejoinder, it's calming.

It's very calming, but I'm not in a calm mood I've I've I almost got to hurry through this and get back to work on that book.

I So we'll we'll go after Adam here, and we'll we'll do it

Let's see how fast Adam can talk how fast can you talk Adam? Hey, I just had a quick comment on The debate you mentioned that it is mostly a debate between full of scripture and full

Ecclesia yes, and it seems to me like there's somewhat of a

Unfairness going on here In the sense that it seems like Madrid is forcing you to try to get up to God You can ask how do you know ad infinitum?

You can ask how do you know on everything that a person says until the very end and it seems to me like we

Christians believe that God has condescended to us So the question that I have is if he believes that through the church

God speaks to us today, so we can know things then why and why in the world can he not we not say the same thing

And that is that God has condescended not through the church But principally through the scriptures through Sola Scriptura so that even though yes, we may be fallible we may miss things

You know, there may be things that we don't know But God has condescended to us and put it in a way that we can know

Well, yeah, the the use of radical skepticism is nothing new for Rome that that is her

Hallmark ever since the time of the Reformation is to engage in a form of radical skepticism that Really does destroy fundamentally one's trust trust in The scriptures so that that trust then ends up being transferred to the magisterium of the church and so yeah

There there really is a fundamental conflict between the not only the the ultimate authorities

But the means by which we believe God has chosen to reveal himself I mean, let's let's be honest for the vast majority of Roman Catholics.

The scriptures are just they're they're they're a table decoration they are not the the source and the very marrow of the means by which

God's truth is communicated them that that means becomes the church and The the sacraments and and things like that.

There is that fundamental difference and that's why you see such a fundamental difference in how we approach apologetics and theology and the

Christian life and the whole nine yards there there's this massive difference between us and That does flesh itself out

I mean Patrick tries to do the you know, we believe the Bible to be in our in Aaron to da -da -da type

You know throw those comments in there once in a while Just so you don't turn off the conservative Christians are listening to you.

But the reality is is very different As you experience Roman Catholicism, right?

I guess my point is why doesn't he allow you to have the same? View of Scripture that he has of the church.

No, he can't And that's what I'm saying It seems to me to be very very sort of like he's not wanting to play on the level playing

No, of course not. That's that's the Catholic answers way they for them. Sola Scriptura is

To them Sola Scriptura is what the Trinity is for Jehovah's Witnesses. It is their trump card.

It is their primary argument That's how they get converts. Look at this surprise by truth series.

Look at how many make Sola Scriptura the issue Just as people who become Jehovah's Witnesses make the doctrine the

Trinity issue or something along those lines and So they are not going to allow themselves to be examined on the same foundation they can't because once they do their entire apologetic method collapses and So they can't and I'm glad that you have seen that that is the double standard.

They're utilizing Thinking about that you've been doing this series and it's got my mind thinking about Readings and till and the end the way in which

The scriptures function in an apologetic setting and I just saw immediately this man doesn't want to play on a level playing field

No, no, if that's the case the argument if that's the case Then the argument once that is brought out and once that is pointed out.

I think at that point the debate's over All righty, Adam. Thanks a lot All right.

God bless. Bye. Bye All right, yes indeed there is no level playing field as far as Rome is concerned at this point

Let's continue on you've talked for two minutes about this and that and the other but you haven't given us the answer to how you

Know which books belong in the Bible. You still haven't said why or how, you know those 27 books.

Mr White do have an awful lot to do I think with the issue of Sola Scriptura, they know what I did earlier in a debate with Jerry Matta ticks

After he had used the same kind of argumentation. Hey without us, you don't know don't ask us how we know

Don't hold us to that standard but we you know, we have the authority to tell you blah blah blah is

I got up and This was I think in April because I had had surgery not too long before I went to Boston Remember that in fact you saw you found some pictures recently of me staying outside That was actually in March because I was on a

I had a cane when I was up in Salt Lake I was leaning on that cane that was a tough day and so I Sort of hobbled down to the speakers where we were in the room at Boston College and I don't

I Honestly think that I thought of this as I was walking down to the podium

I had not planned on doing this have my notes and not plan on doing this But I just decided to do this as I was walking down to the podium to speak in this debate it was on the

Apocrypha with Jerry Matta ticks and I stood in front of those folks and I looked out and I said the

Book of Mormon is the Word of God And I just stopped Just try to make sure they heard what

I said and I said now that is the assertion of The Mormon Church and when you ask them

Why do you believe that? Fundamentally, it's because the Prophet tells me so There is a prophet on earth

He has the right to say this and I said That's the exact argument Rome has given us this evening because when you boil

Jerry's arguments down fundamentally his argument is That the

Apocrypha is Canon Scripture because Rome has the authority to tell you so That's just it.

It's an argument from authority and that's why the Apocrypha debate ended up being actually more interesting

The justification debate did because it got us to the key issues along those lines but that's what we're hearing here is

Patrick can't tell you why he knows Patrick Patrick thinks he knows that Matthew wrote Matthew We've now discovered even

Patrick doesn't know that even if he thinks he knows that but here you hear the kind of argumentation of people who

Embrace systems of ultimate authorities that override Anything else that's where he's coming from because if you want to get in front of this audience and say the

Bible alone You better be prepared to tell us what the Bible is And why you accept these books as Scripture?

That's what I want from you sometime tonight. Just remember you have a roomful of Catholics here tonight

There's some Protestants, but you have a lot of Catholics now is your golden opportunity Now you can show the

Catholic world how to arrive at this infallible Certitude about Scripture using something outside of Scripture to get to it

That's your dilemma, and I'm going to hold you to it before the end of the night It's very interesting

God worked with God's people in the Old Testament to bring about the canon of the

Old Testament a canon different than Rome's by the way And now we're being told well, God just couldn't do that in the

New Testament And mr. White if you don't if you don't have some infallible authority Then you can't recognize what

God says Now he wants to make it sound as if what I'm saying is that I go out and I I Get in the

Lotus position and I go is Matthew Scripture, and that's not what I'm talking about doing I Believe that God does work with his people

I believe God has always worked with his people, and I do believe that people recognize that which is inspired

But I believe he works with his people as a whole and they never take that to mean that they have the authority to create

Canon, but mr.. Madrid none of this has anything to do with the fact That Scripture says it is sufficient to equip the man of God, and I'm going to hold you to that this evening

I My question Actually wasn't well since we're holding each other so much tonight. Mr..

White I'd like to I would like to hold you to I Has anyone has algo gone through this to find out?

if we messed up on the questions because I think it was more than once in our debates we've lost track of who was supposed to be asking whom what and I'm wondering since algo knows all things and has undoubtedly

Listened to this debate at least at least 15 times if he's ever sat down and figured out whether we actually got the right number of questions

And who got to question who and stuff like that, so we'll have to Make inquiry of the

Oracle of all debate knowledge Algo, and he says you did.

I'm not sure what that means You did get enough, or I did miss one, or I'm not really sure what that is

We'll find out after we continue with this next question that issue But I would like to inject another element into it which

I alluded to before The gospel of Matthew nowhere claims to have been written by Matthew Yet you believe it was your

Bible says it was written by Matthew. We can select John for that matter or mark How do you know that Matthew wrote

Matthew and what is your basis for accepting it is it because he was an apostle

Or because he had the approval of an apostle in the case of Mark or Luke. How do you know and what is your basis?

Now once again, you'll recall that last week or maybe the week before that we read the

Statement of was it Fitzmyer Brown we read Actually, you know what

I have I still have that somewhere here Let me see. I think it's under theology.

You know, it's not theology. How about Roman materials? Did the authorship of Matthew here we go.

Mm -hmm Here is the quotation Raymond Brown Roman Catholics were among the last to give up defending

Officially the view that the gospel was written by Matthew one of the twelve a change ill straight 1955 when the

Secretary of the Roman Pontifical Biblical Commission gave Catholics full liberty in reference to earlier

Biblical Commission decrees including one which stipulated that Greek Matthew was identical in substance with a gospel written by the

Apostle in Aramaic or Hebrew Raymond Brown SS the birth of Messiah commentary on the infancy narratives and the

Gospels of Matthew and Luke 1993 pages 45 to 46 footnote 2 on page 27 and footnote 5

Brown also notes the Roman Catholic Church was one of the last major Christian bodies to regard the date and authorship of biblical books as a doctrinal issue and quote so Here we have a fascinating situation and this happens a lot with Rome Up until 1955 a

Catholic could claim that the church had defined this at least to a point. It's never been a dogmatic issue

But now they can't do that. So instead of clarifying things Rome has actually been losing ground.

They've become less clear less certain about these issues over time So I hope somebody will ask

I Hope somebody will ask mr. Madrid How do you know that Matthew wrote

Matthew in light of the fact that Raymond Brown doesn't know in fact doesn't believe that Matthew wrote Matthew How do you know that Matthew wrote

Matthew and if you don't know and can't know that Matthew wrote

Matthew and Protestants don't believe that believing Matthew wrote Matthew is an element of dogmatic belief or confession or anything else

Why are you asking this question? That would be I think something that someone should maybe ask

You know Actually algo is mentioning that Someone on the envoy board said that Brown was put on the

Pontifical Biblical Commission so they could keep him out of trouble Yeah, okay, that's whatever

Well again We we stray from the topic but it is it is a common question that is utilized all the time

Well, how do you know Matthew wrote Matthew? Well the question I have to ask let's see this is where I would have used this

This is where this this part of the debate wouldn't have happened in fact a number of these parts of debate would not have happened any longer

Simply because I think even Patrick Madrid recognizes that there are certain arguments that he now uses that he really shouldn't and You know

I Would love to challenge him to debate canonical issues. I think it'd be wonderful to see the circularity

See the problem is if if you know if we were to argue that is the

Roman Catholic Canon is the dogmatic Roman Catholic Canon of the

Catholic Church infallible the circularity of his position Would become very very clear because he'd actually have to talk about it for more than two minutes

If you actually have to do that for 20 or 25 minutes You run out of stuff to say

Authority arguments are much better in short bursts than they are being dragged out and I think it's one of the reasons you don't get

Roman Catholics defending that they will they will throw it out in debates like this And say but you've got to bear the burden

But they won't defend the Roman Catholic view of tradition and these issues like that because it becomes so very circular

It all boils down to well it is because we say so it's the we say so argument

It's ipso dixit We have the authority that's all there is to it and don't question us

And when when we bring forward biblical texts to substantiate our alleged ultimate authority Don't question our acts of Jesus because we're the only ones that can tell you what the text says

See it becomes this this real house of mirror house of cards It's it's it's you start pushing on you try to grab for something find something you can't find anything

It's just really not even good since Matthew doesn't say that Matthew wrote Matthew do I have to know

Matthew wrote Matthew Where where is where is it said that to be born again, you must believe that Matthew wrote

Matthew I Haven't found that and since the book of Matthew doesn't say that Matthew wrote

Matthew I don't recall being told that I had to believe that now do I believe

Matthew wrote Matthew yeah? I do you know why well because I studied the issue And I go back and I look at history, and it's the same thing with what was said earlier on mr.

Mr.. Madrid you accused me of violating sola scriptura because I exegeted the passage in the original languages look

He's not appealing to the Bible. He's appealing to the Greek What was the Bible written in?

That's what I am appealing to and so when we look at John for example You can examine the gospel of John and you can there's all sorts of discussions about Pointing out how how the identity of John is revealed in the gospel of John But there are people who disagree with that and it is not something that means that I'm going to call that person a non -christian

If he says well, I'm not really sure that Matthew wrote Matthew Now did

Matthew write Matthew I certainly think so there's a lot of good evidence for it But does that mean I'm violating sola scriptura to go back and examine church documents and examine church history and examine the text no of Course not it's not a violation of sola scriptura at all

And so you say well you can't now again. I just point out after this debate was over a few months later

I had Dialogue via the fledgling internet

AOL message boards as I recall With both Carl Keating and Patrick Madrid and the subject and I kept pointing out

That their definitions of sola scriptura need to be shall we say somewhat adjusted and so they would match reality and Their responses we don't need to use your definition of sola scriptura

We can use whatever one we've run into most often or what is most convenient for us And I've said

I don't know how many times already in this series. They wouldn't let us get away with that If we started defining their doctrines as we felt willy -nilly

So again the double standard is is very very clear at that know that Matthew wrote Matthew unless the

Roman Catholic Church tells you so Well, that's interesting because Christians knew or claimed to know that Matthew wrote

Matthew long before there even existed a Roman Catholic Church Or even existed anyone in Rome who claimed to infallibly speak for Christ So I'm not sure how they managed to do that, and if they did measure that why can't

I do that tonight? Well, I guess I can't I Just Skyman and channel just quote something that I felt be worth

Adding here Carson Moo and more Morris point out that quote we have no evidence that these

Gospels ever Circulated without an appropriate designation kata methion That is according to Matthew or the like da

Carson Douglas J. Mooley on Morris introduction of the New Testament Grand Rapids on urban 1992 page 66

That's an interesting quotation just to throw in there just because well we like to provide interesting quotations.

Thank you reverend Skyman Can't I Mr..

White the reason it's a commonly utilized question by Catholic apologists is because you can't answer the question

Just as you just demonstrated right now. You don't have any answer for the question

How do you know Matthew wrote Matthew you gave us your? Your hunch based on your study

Although you've never seen the actual autographs as I have not seen them none of us in the room have seen them You're relying by the way on that transmission of an accurate

Transmission of those documents by the Catholic Church, Mr.. White not not in fact That's what I'm about to say by the

Catholic Church down through the ages Yeah, that's that's how you even said by the Catholic Church of course assuming what you have yet to prove and again

Well, I think I've actually responded to can be demonstrated very conclusively you're relying on that But you won't admit it you say you don't have to know why or if Matthew wrote

Matthew I find that very curious because if it can't be established that this book was written by an apostle under the inspiration of the

Holy Spirit, and why should we accept it at all after all this book claims to be written by an apostle under the inspiration of the

Holy Spirit And you say we should not accept no it doesn't and I don't see any substantive difference between your saying

We shouldn't accept this one. We should accept this one. The only the only connection is that you don't have an answer for either

I'm tired of being said that I'm not answering questions after I answer him But I'd invite anyone to take this this book take a look at it

Then read the gospel of Matthew and reflect upon mr. Madrid's recent words that there is no difference in what

I'm saying between the two there most obviously is But again who is the author of Canon I have answered the question who is the author of Canon?

Man or God is it Rome or God it is God so the question is

Recognizing that which is inspired not infallibly determining who wrote the gospel of Matthew Now I would return the question to you in fact.

That's what I'm going to do in just a moment You keep saying well without this infallible authority mr..

Madrid. How do you know that Rome is infallible? I can show you fallible fallible fallible statements over and over and over again from Roman Pontiff's They've made many mistakes, so how do you know that you're using an argument?

That is circular and goes back to what is used by everyone and saying well I'm the final authority which is really what

Rome is claiming I Have to know I have no idea where we are in this who's asking what question

Okay, and we each have one left, okay? All right, I think it's three, but I think it's gonna work out right.

That's fine I have myself down. I've had both of us down as already having asked three really so I think we're on the third yeah

Okay, I have a stand that's having asked three, but not answered all three. I only have my So I get to ask one question you get that okay well fine

Well mr.. Madrid. I guess I'll just have to ask the question. I was just I was just asking I'm gonna turn the question back on you now.

I don't think it's necessarily on solo scripture But how do you know that the Roman Catholic Church?

Is an infallible authority upon which you can trust this is how I know mr.. What okay now now?

Let's before he responds if I Responded to his question by referring to the actions of God in time if I referred to The consistency of Scripture over time if I referred to the fact that you know

Gnostics are fundamentally opposed to to the Christian faith And therefore their writings would not be if I did anything historical.

Oh We'll say you don't have an answer Because you believe in soul scripture, so you can't refer to history.

What's a strong man of soul scripture? That's not ever been the issue, so it's a misrepresentation on that part, but evidently referring to history

To answer particular questions is is not something we are we are allowed to do now what you're about to hear is

Taken almost word -for -word clearly almost pre memorized From Catholicism and fundamentalism by Karl Keating, and they call it not a circular argument but a spiral argument now of course a spiral if you look at it from the top is a

Circle, but anyway, it's a spiral argument. Let's see if a spiral argument can actually establish an infallible authority now remember listen to each leg of this argument and ask yourself a simple question is

Each element of this argument Something that can be questioned or not listen it

First let me move this to two minutes. This is how I know I Can look independent of what

I see in scripture in fact? I'm not even going to treat scripture as an inspired document for the moment for the sake of argument

I'm going to look at whether or not a man named Jesus Christ lived can I prove that historically yes?

Can I prove that Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead and appeared to many people who as eyewitnesses?

Claimed that he died and rose from the dead I can prove that in two minutes I can't prove it for your satisfaction, but I think we would all agree that those things are true.

I can demonstrate through Non -christian unbiased sources in fact sometimes he's actually biased against the

Christian position that Jesus Christ instituted a church We can look at the writings of these early

Christians Not only the Apostles, but also the men and women in the post -apostolic era

I can look at the scripture and see what just independent of whether or not whether or not

I believe it's inspired I can look and see a description of the church that Jesus established all of you know the verse in Matthew 16 verse 18 on this

Rock I will build my church and the gifts of hell will not prevail against it mr. White and I would argue all night long over what the rock is but the fact is

Jesus established a church The next point is as I look at scripture. I see that The church is described as having certain functions certain cat or Attributes certain characteristics certain jobs that has to perform and I can compare and find out well historically yes

I can show that that was done through the writings of the scriptures So if I believe that Jesus is God if I believe that his promise is true that he founded a church

Then I have to say this is the next step. I have to say does that church Is there a church today which fits that description

Which is doing all the things that Jesus said if that's true if I can find that and I have by the way

It's the Catholic Church, then I know that what is described here in this book is the same church that I see today

So when that church tells me Jesus said in Luke 10 16 he who listens to you listens to me he who?

Refuses to hear you refuses to hear me when I hear that church speak. I know that is Jesus speaking through the church

So there you have the spiral argument now aside from the issue of Jesus's existence his birth

His crucifixion and resurrection once you get past that point Every single assertion that he makes is arguable

Very very arguable and remember when when your argument And I made this later on the debates on the papacy because when you when you ask because he didn't get into this and really couldn't but Fundamentally, how is this church recognized?

It has to be recognized as a papal church When you start walking down the line of each step of this argument and you go well

There's you know, let's say there's a 50 % chance. That's true. Then there's a 50 % chance. This is true What's the chance of both of them being true that's now down to 25 and what's chance of this one?

Well that gets halved even more and a chance. This is right gets halved or more. The result is a syllogistic argument.

That is Really weak and that's what you have for the

Roman Catholic papacy I wonder if Patrick Madrid would debate the papacy

Wow, that would be exciting. That would be great I'd be willing to do it.

I wonder if he would well We'll continue with my response to that and this discussion your phone calls everything on the dividing line next

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