Exposing False Attacks Upon the Trinity

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:32

Well greetings, welcome to the dividing line we hope we're working Evidently we had

00:39

It's been a weird morning a day here in Phoenix. Evidently we had power outages here at the office and computers shut down and did so inappropriately and trashed programs and everything else and we weren't gonna do a program day anyways, but sort of providential that we did or We may have had we just had same problems

01:04

I guess next week once we started to try to webcast So we're starting a little late,

01:10

I'm not sure how long we're gonna go I've just got a couple videos look at and Sort of a

01:16

Controversy erupted today. So I said hey if you're gonna be in I'm gonna come in One of the thing you just real quickly if you see me doing something strange

01:27

With my right hand, I'll explain briefly why People think this is really weird, but I got up at 1 30 this morning and Left my house by 2 a .m.

01:41

I wanted to do a century a century is a 100 mile ride And I try to do a century and normally about once a month.

01:48

Maybe once every two months depends. I mean I did a 2 120 mile ride just last month in Colorado.

01:56

That's a that's something different and If you live in Phoenix It's you know, depending on how much climbing you do.

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That's five and a half six hours So if you got to get back before the Sun comes up blah blah when I left everything was clear

02:11

Didn't stay clear Ended up. Thank you. Josh. My son rescued me yet.

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Once again the second time he's done this. Hey son I'm hiding under a bridge and Noah's Ark just floated by and so could you could you give me a ride?

02:29

Anyway before that happened Yet once again, I encountered one of God's wonderful living creatures called a bee remember when it hit me in the face just a few months ago and my whole

02:43

I Puffed up. Well, evidently I get This one, I don't know how he got on my hand.

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I really especially where he was But this is a this is a normal hand, you know, it's got veins and stuff like that This is a really freaky all really super puffy hair

03:03

It hurts. It is so swollen up that it just hurts and so if you see me

03:11

Put a little ice on it. Don't worry, please not we don't need all the home remedies well, if you take three teaspoons of this and add it to some oatmeal and Cook it under a full moon

03:26

Don't need all that stuff. It's got Benadryl all over it I'm icing it and to be honest with you it feels best

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They're like, oh Wow Charismatic on a science show. Yeah, either charismatic.

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I'm just asking a question No, no, I do. I need to actually show my face on camera just so we can quell any possible rumors

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That that actually you hit me and it wasn't a bee. Oh No, I don't you know, I know no one would ever have thought of that.

03:56

You know what at all the way Somebody would have thought about no, I don't think so.

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I don't think so. So it was a bee folks Anyway, it man this guy as soon as he hit me that was the most painful sting

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I've ever had in my life I don't I don't know why But he was not happy with me he was very unhappy and as soon as I took my glove off later

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I'm like, oh, I thought I'd have 24 hours like I did with Like this it's you never did mullet.

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No. No, that was never there are people in Prescott that still have mullets No, yeah, yes, yes, there are no,

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I don't you know, that's true. Yeah, cowboy hats not mullets Anyway That was not not

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Bill Ray's kind of town. No Whatever you say. Anyway, here's here's the reason we're doing a program today

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Two different people in ministry Contacted me today and said

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I Did did you see this? and I think this needs to be responded to and Given that it's

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It is something we've addressed many many many times before You might say well

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But it is an issue. That is extremely important It also will give me an opportunity because there's actually two videos

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To once again illustrate the fact that Yaya snow

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Whom would never recognize if I ran into him at a debate because he evidently never shows his face

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This Program right now in the hopes that he may eventually be able to find something to String together to create some kind of argument

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Based upon creating division I've yet to see any evidence of Yaya snow actually seeking to increase understanding between Christians and Muslims I've never seen that not once And here you've got a good example of this

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My assumption is the first video came actually from a Webinar type thing that I'm actually going to be doing tomorrow morning

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Sort of a worldwide thing that Jonathan McClatchy is involved with. I'm gonna be talking about papyri

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Greek New Testament papyri, but I'm assuming this was from one of those because well, you'll see and fundamentally the purpose of The video is to say well

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Christians can't even tell whether the belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation Now we've addressed this many times before it's funny

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Given the almost exhaustive library Exhaustive library of Video clips that Yaya has that he didn't pull up where I've addressed this before because Well, you see the problem is the way

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I've addressed this before Would ruin his narrative Because it would it would

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Not allow for this well Christians can't even tell I mean this is something was made up later it wouldn't it wouldn't allow for that because it it actually recognizes that the

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Simplistic form of the question is too simplistic That is

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I've said many many times on this program in print that Most Evangelicals Are By default modalists

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But they are so out of ignorance not conviction they are so because we Because of the entertainment culture in Western Christianity Which I think the change in the

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West will probably get rid of the entertainment culture Christianity. I suppose that's a good thing But because of how that has been

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Most Evangelicals have never heard either a meaningful sermon on the

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Trinity or a decent series of Bible studies I mean

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Even when when classes are offered in many churches You know,

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I one of my one of my saddest saddest memories honestly of my youth was

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So I was I was in youth choir at a very large Baptist Church and my

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Dad was I think you've probably heard this story for my dad was Asked to teach a

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Christian doctrines class and Those classes were at the same time as youth choir practice.

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And so I Actually asked to get out to at least go say hi to my dad at the class

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And then and then come back and I remember walking into that room and there he sat and he had all his little handouts

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There's nobody there Because there are so many other classes. Let's let's go to something on prophecies go something.

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That's just exciting And You know, I've had the same experience there

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I remember very clearly we we scheduled a seminar in the New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses once down it

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Was 4747 North 16th Street. Was that the yeah Huh sweet 106 as well.

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We moved we are in two different suites remember Right, but then there was that there was the seminar room down In and we use the seminar room and You know,

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I I had all my stuff put together and I went down there at seven, you know before seven o 'clock and 655 seven o 'clock 705 by about 715.

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I'm like Time go home. No, nobody showed up. So things like that happen point being

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That there are a lot of people who out of ignorance and and I'm not I'm not saying that they are not to be held responsible for this

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But out of ignorance things like that hold incorrect views regarding the

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Doctrine the Trinity There is a vast difference between being ignorant of the truth and Therefore having errant ideas because on one level that's all of us

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On one level when you talk about well think about think about the current situation with the eternal functional subordination debate

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There are good godly men on both sides of this debate and Yet both sides sort of feel like the other side if you took their viewpoint to its final conclusion

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Would cause problems This is the highest revelation of God's being

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And as such there are questions that press our limited understanding as finite creatures and Again, this is one of the problems

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I have when someone like yeah, yeah snow addresses stuff like this where there's there's no interest in accurate representation is no interest in actually

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Expanding understanding. It's it's all you know Stalker ish type thing over against serious

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Muslim apologists or serious Muslim thinkers Who might actually want to know what we believe and understand what we believe because this is an area where?

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There needs to be where the only serious conversation is going to be Conversations being undertaken by people who recognize

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That God's self -revelation needs to be taken with a tremendous amount of respect and that we as human beings are

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Fleas Following the small amount of light That has been been provided and for us to sit around like we are the we are the judges of God and things like that just This is an area where there has to be a tremendous amount of humility anyway there's a vast difference between ignorance and Knowing rejection and Whenever anybody asks is knowledge of the

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Trinity Necessary for salvation. Do you have to be a Trinitarian to be saved?

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see this there's actually subtle differences between each one of these things and My response has always been to place it in the only nest in the only context it can be placed in and That is recognition that there are certain

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Definitional truths that cannot be compromised But our knowledge of those definitional truths will always be growing

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So, how do you put those two things together? Well, it seems pretty obvious to me that a believing

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Christian will want to be subject to God's revelation in his own word and a believing

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Christian Will therefore not reject what God's Word reveals and So the answer is yes, and no, that's not an equivocation.

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It depends on what the context is if a person rejects the doctrine the

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Trinity specifically Identifies the the Holy Spirit as God's impersonal active force so this specifically teaches that Jesus is

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Michael the Archangel or or One God amongst many gods or or just a mere prophet, you know

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That's just a few of the religions out there that we could we could address These are specific knowing rejections of biblical teachings and At that point you then raise the issue

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Paul warned us false Christ can't save He was worried that people might even follow after a false

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Christ Well, there would be many false Christ, but if it's a false Christ, that's a Christ that does not bring you salvation

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Michael the Archangel didn't die upon the cross for anyone and At the same time on the other side of the spectrum

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You have the rationalist that says well, do you have to have? Perfection of theology you have to have a perfect theological understanding

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Normally defined by their theological understanding but you need to have a perfect theological understanding and So that's why you know, there's some some folks that seem to I haven't seen anybody who's quite gone this far yet But would say that in the

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EFS thing someone on the other side is actually not a believer They're they're actually a formal

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Heretic and that their heresy is damnable it actually brings Condemnation for eternity and hence the question

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Always has to assume that you have some knowledge of the person you're talking about when you say is

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Knowledge of the Trinity necessary for the salvation. You have to say of such and such a person because you have to ask

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What do they know? What is their situation? Are they a person in ignorance?

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Are they a person with knowledge? Are they simply apathetic about the truth?

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That's never a good thing There are all sorts of issues that if you're if you're actually serious, you're just not using it as a as a club or something like that That you have to address and so that issue of willful rejection of Divine truth.

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It's been explained to you. Here it is Here's the teaching here's the consistent testimony of Scripture and you reject that and as of course

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I've also said the Gospels Trinitarian It finds its origin in the

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Father it's its accomplishment in the Son its application the Spirit I can't imagine how anyone can have a balanced full orbed understanding of the gospel without an understanding of who the

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God is that has glorified himself in the gospel and in fact, I would say that in this instance, we have another example where If you're

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God -centered Then your gospel will end up being balanced

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Because you'll see it as what the triune God has done to bring about his own

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Glory Whereas if you're man -centered The actual

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Beautiful balance of the persons in the Trinity will be lost in you and it's interesting the second video

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The second video The second video we're gonna look at another Yahya Snow production another

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I got to come up with a term for this another one of Yahya's failed attempts to create contradiction or Just just you know,

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Yahya demonstrates his ignorance yet once again something along those lines is Exactly this it's trying to create a contradiction between Nabil and Jeff Durbin and It's based upon a

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Misrepresentation could be a misunderstanding or just misrepresentation with you know with Yahya You know someone who has has

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Manipulated so many hours of Christian teaching and still doesn't get it Sort of hard to give the the benefit of the doubt someone like that really is so maybe it's just a purposeful misrepresentation, but We'll leave that to the one who knows all things

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Another Yahya snow job Okay, that one came from from Rich and I saw it in in in channel there so another

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Yahya snow job There you go. I think that's good That's that's good. All right so with all of that said we are going to test the limits of our technology

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Here is Here is what started all of this a question

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From the webinar, I think it was last week. I'm not sure Let's let's take a look at it and Respond to it

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You know, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that That's Mike Licona, by the way, at least he's extended the time that the

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Texas Yahya wants know whether Christians have to believe the Trinity in order to be a Christian That's a good question, you know,

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I think it's something of which you know, I don't know I don't know the answer to that. I do think

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I mean, I'm a Trinitarian. I do believe the Trinity but The I think the arguments for the deity of Jesus are stronger than the arguments that we have for the

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Holy Spirit being deity I'm not saying that we don't have arguments for the

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Holy Spirit being deity. I'm just saying there's more and Stronger arguments for Jesus being deity and I do think one has to believe that Jesus is deity in order to be a

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Christian. So Whether you have to be a Trinitarian, I don't know but I do think you have to believe that Jesus is his deity

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Okay. Now that's I don't know if dr.

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Lycona was just There does seem to be within a certain apologetic methodology the idea of The minimalist approach

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Make your target small but first of all I've been asked this question many many times and I answer it the same way and I would think this would be a question that is asked regularly and Hence the issues that I brought up I would

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I would think would Sort of have to be brought up. So there was nothing there about what the person knows willful rejection instead you had

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There you had Sort of the idea that well, you know the arguments for the deity of Christ, they're very clear

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We need to accept those but you know, the arguments the Holy Spirit is is that the only basis we have for the

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Trinity? I mean the fact that you have one God and you have three divine persons that are revealed the the third leg of the of the biblical evidence to the doctrine the

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Trinity is the equality and deity of the persons and there's no question in Light of the

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Bible's own teaching that the Spirit takes the things of Jesus and not of his own

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He's not pointing people to himself it it it makes perfect sense that there is much less discussion

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Of the third person of Trinity because he's the one who indwells us and it is his role to apply

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The the gospel in the lives of his elect people and to give guidance to them and to point them to Jesus that's the that's the way things are right now.

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There is going to be a balance in Eternity once the work of redemption is complete it seems to be what

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Paul's referring to in first Corinthians chapter 15 But for now you have the emphasis upon the

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Son because we are united with him Our union with the triune

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God is through the God -man. And so that's why the focus is upon the God -man

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So I just I just didn't follow what was what was going on there

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I Would I would like to think I don't know That dr. Lycona Would say that if you know the truth about what the

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Bible teaches on this subject and reject it That this would indicate that you are not under the

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Lordship of Christ But I don't know I I just really

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I just really don't know so we press on Pastor John MacArthur has a different answer.

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Well, of course, all right I'm gonna switch topics here and let's talk about the Trinity. I've got actually two related questions

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To ask you about the Trinity. Why is Understanding and believing in the Trinity so crucial and is this issue important enough to stand for?

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at the cost of Christian unity Do we need to make this a fundamental doctrine where we refuse to recognize as genuine believers people who don't accept the

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Trinity? Absolutely If you don't believe in the Trinity Then you don't believe in the true

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God and you don't believe in the true Christ and you don't believe in the true Holy Spirit I mean, this is the nature of God So there's a and then hey,

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I Came along here and your doctrinal position. Are you a reformed

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Baptist? okay, now this is one of the Hebrews or lights are called in and It was really only toward the end here

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Okay, based on what the Church Fathers Know based on the fact that the New Testament itself says if you have a

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Jesus other than the true Jesus There's no salvation in him so if you have a Jesus who's a

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Michael the Archangel is something that's absolutely definitionally different than if you recognize the biblical teaching concerning the deity of Christ.

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Are you? Which is interesting enough what I just got done saying Just only a few weeks ago

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That apologist teaches the Trinity belief is a must for salvation now Notice notice again.

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This is we all I think it's just time. We start recognizing what ya ya snow does is Again have

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I I've addressed this before I've addressed this a number of times and I've talked about the ignorance issue and the purposeful

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Rebellion, it doesn't he doesn't do those He just grabs one of these things I mean because it was just a reason and what he's trying to do is he's trying to create

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Something. Well, these people are all just indiscreet. Can you imagine if if we spent time?

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Doing this with all the Muslim apologists how easy it would be To produce videos like this.

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I just sort of feel sorry for anybody who spends their life doing this. I mean I I can obviously outrun ya ya snow on a bike.

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There's no question about that and Probably have much wider much much wider reading interests than Then ya ya does.

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Um, I just I just can't imagine spending my life Listening to Muslim apologists and then trying to put stuff like this together because it'd be so easy to to create

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Because there are real contradictions between between them but on this issue If you if you really listen carefully other than Mike like Kona's I'm I don't know

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We're actually saying something very similar listen listen to the next one this apologist doesn't seem to think so He's taken seriously must one believe in the

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Trinity to be saved. Okay, Robert Bowman. Well, not exactly Well, not exactly and I maintain that we are not saved by passing a theology exam

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Some of you are breathing sighs of relief right now However disbelief in the

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Trinity is generally a symptom that something's wrong Particularly if you hold to an anti -trinitarian theology, there is evidence that something is wrong.

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You've been deceived You don't really understand what you're doing when you pray and all other kinds of things can be at fault there so I think he's basically saying what

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I'm saying because he's talking about if if you reject these things if you have a Belief in a false

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Jesus and and so on and so forth. This is indicative of something wrong in your spiritual condition so he actually raises the issue of error and falsehood and Is basically saying it's not a matter of passing a theology test

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It's not like well, you know until you get it exactly right then you you're getting closer and closer

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No, the issue is willingness to be in submission to God's truth and Of course, what is what are the scriptures saying?

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No one can say that Jesus is Lord Except by the

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Holy Spirit, so that doesn't mean that the people can't mouth the effect the words

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But they they cannot have the effect of the words Because that's spiritually done by the

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Holy Spirit of God. So I really I would imagine that Dr.

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Bowman would agree with what I said and making the distinction between ignorance and purposeful rebellion

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And knowingly accepting and embracing a falsehood whether it be oneness or or subordination ism or polytheism or any of these others

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But the point here is is that the Trinity is simply a theological Safeguard to make sure the church keeps teaching the truth about Jesus Christ and the

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Holy Spirit So when people say oh, I don't think we should worship Jesus Christ at least not the way we worship

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God the Father Red alert. Okay, we got a problem. The Trinity tells us there's a problem.

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So it's a theological construct Yes, the word Trinity isn't in the Bible You don't have to believe that word is the is the best word

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But if you're rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity for something that's not biblical That's a symptom of something seriously wrong

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Now notice what he said if you're rejecting the doctrine the Trinity for something else, which is what I was saying so I've laid that out and Hopefully you've seen that and and understand where I'm coming from in regards to the necessity of making the distinction between ignorance and willful rejection now

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You can be ignorant and also willfully reject so I wanted to play

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The video that Marcus J Rogers put up yesterday on Facebook, I got a couple

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Twitter Items and Telling me yesterday about this video and I started watching it at one point

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I looked around to try to find some way that I could save it so that I could because what

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I do is I'll see these things and I will grab them and throw them in Dropbox So that's here on my system when

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I come in and then I can queue it up And you know, that's how we got most of these videos on here and stuff like that and But I couldn't it was a it was a

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Facebook video and I I was in a hurry I couldn't figure out how to grab it how to save it pull it down, whatever

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But I figured well if worse comes to worse, I can just bring the URL up again and play it. Well, I can't it's gone

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We had a bunch of folks while while Rich was working on the technical stuff

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We had a bunch of folks looking around and we found a bunch of links and nothing would work It's just I think it's just been deleted.

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I guess I don't know why I don't know Jeff and the guys at Apologia played it audio wise and responded to it yesterday on the program

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So I guess that's all we're gonna be able to do. Here's a young man Marcus Rogers and I had responded to a video.

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He had done quite some time ago pushing a oneness perspective and as zealous as young man is he is startlingly ignorant and It's that kind of ignorance that pretends to be spiritual the

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Holy Spirit tells me this Holy Spirit tells me that the Holy Spirit told me to go to this but uh, and And What I listened to yesterday, you know, he's talking about Revelations Look at the book of Revelations.

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I just wonder it's a book of Revelation. It's singular And you know, you should not add to anything and the

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Trinity is not the Bible so you're at and of course a the instant response of everybody is And the word

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Bible's not in the Bible either. And so that's a really lame argument and Just very clearly he's not done any reading he's not done any any in -depth thought he's not meaningfully interacted with anybody on any of these issues and so there you have a combination of rank ignorance combined with a

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Super spirituality that allows you you know, because I remember right at the beginning and there was somebody else

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Who was it? It was I don't understand the The Nick here but The dude is someone someone else online.

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Yeah, here we go Didn't interaction with the video and responded to it and So I was listening to that and I was reminded of some of the things

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I had seen when I watched the beginning of it And that was well, you know, he's so much older than I am. So I just don't think he'd have ears to hear

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Well, you can be so much younger than someone and not have ears to hear The question is who can accurately represent the other one who who is listening to what the other one says?

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I can assure mr. Rogers Mr. Rogers, I can assure mr.

33:32

Rogers that I've heard every Objection that he has and I can assure mr.

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Rogers He has not heard every response that I would give to him by any stretch of the imagination

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So there you can have a combination and I'll illustrate it for you, but I can't because the

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Video has for some reason vanished into thin air so There we go,

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I'm now sending you the right one I'm gonna put it up here So let's have the other example that I was able to put together and Do you have any thoughts on oneness

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Pentecostals who believe the only options are oneness or tritheism? Well, that's the standard standard oneness argument is

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Either you believe in three gods or one That's that's not just the oneness guys. I'm reading something from Twitter.

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That's not just oneness guys one of the key issues in Doing apologetics and dr.

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Trinity is the assumption of Unitarianism on the part of pretty much everybody the the Muslims do it The Jehovah's Witnesses do it the one is

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Pentecostals do it. They all assume Unitarianism to prove Unitarianism and and one of the toughest things

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For a Christian to be able to do is to know your faith well enough to recognize the assumption of Unitarianism and challenge it when it happens

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Because it becomes very circular and You just won't ever get anywhere if you don't challenge the assumption of Unitarianism And it's not just the one this guy's to do that the

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Jehovah's Witnesses do that every time they see the name Jehovah They just assume Jehovah's Unitarian the

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Muslims of course do that because the whole Modern concept of Tauheed is tied together not just with monotheism, but with Unitarian Monotheism that's definitely a subject we've addressed a number of times before So I've been

35:32

I've been told I guess the fellow is named drew who did the interaction drew has the video

35:38

I hope he saved it if he has I will get him to pass it on. So maybe we'll get to review the

35:43

Rogers video next time around unless rich upgrades to the next great version of our software and Nothing will ever ever work

35:55

This could be hey now my duct tape and bailing wire have not failed you yet Not yet, but you said you you said that before the next program you were going to the next version.

36:06

Oh, yeah Yeah, I don't like this one at all. So yeah, definitely definitely and you can look at me and guarantee

36:13

That it's it's good. If I have to get some chewing gum out. I'll do that, too Yes, okay.

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All right. So here is the other video another ya -ya snow job here

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Thank you very much. I was very good. I I'm I am impressed Who created the world

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Jeff Durbin versus Nabeel Qureshi Trinity confusion see the idea. It's a Trinity confusion

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No, it's it is it is made up and if there is any confusion, it's in ya -ya's mind

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I don't think it's in ya -ya's mind. I think I think he's just trying to I think he knows he can get away with this.

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He's not you get away with us If you know the Trinity you'll catch him But he recognizes a lot of people and and you know when you're shooting for the lower end of the spectrum

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Then you can get away with this and that's unfortunate was doing here's here's the alleged mr.

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Mr. Confusion and it's actually misrepresentation and I'm going to move this down here and Here we go.

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You guys ready to go How the confusing

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Trinity doctrine appears to lead to Christian scholars to contradict your beliefs on who created the world so Nabeel and Jeff congratulations.

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You are World -class Christian scholars now, I think you've been leaving it a little bit up a little bit too long.

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There you go now when God makes us He takes a look the father takes a look at the son and out of an overflow of love that the father has for the son

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He decides to populate this world with people who were made in the image of the Sun Are you seeing this?

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He loves the Sun so much that he makes the world in the image of his son He makes all of us in the image of his son

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He makes a bunch of us replicas of the Sun and we're not God, but we are in his image

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So Jesus moving to verse 3. Okay now now hold on so He takes a clip from Nabeel.

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I found that interesting That's not how I'd say it That's not how

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I'd say it, you know why? because when we talk about mankind created in the image of God All of mankind is creating the image of God only believers

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Are are then conformed in the process of sanctification to the image of the

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Sun So in other words the image of God is Not a physical thing it is our spiritual ability to enter into communion with God To enter into communion with others in our worship of God, it's

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It is found in both male and female Despite what some of the monks in the

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Middle Ages came up with after many years in their cells alone and It separates us from the created order in a very special way that is

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Something that all human beings that that is the that's the connecting point That is the the point of contact with the world with with anyone as they are creating image of God no matter how spoiled no matter how defaced that image is

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That's the contact point. There's no neutral contact point never has been ever will be the contact point apologetically

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Evangelistically is that men are created in the image of God, but to be conformed to the image of the

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Sun That is something that only the elect of God indwelt by the

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Holy Spirit of God experience and So I would not express it the way it and Meele did

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The problem is I have no earthly idea where that talk came from. I don't know what came before it

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I don't know what comes after it. I don't know what the text is and nothing all you get is just this little thing

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Where he says well the Father created us well, yeah, yeah, guess what and I think you already know this any basic Trinitarian text if you pick up the

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Forgotten Trinity Then you will know that one of the evidences That is presented therein is the fact that there are so many divine actions where Father Son and Spirit are seen working together

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Creation Father The Son Colossians chapter 1 Hebrews chapter 1 the

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Spirit is there in creation in Genesis 1 The resurrection the

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Father raises the Son the Son has power within himself the Spirit raises the Son So many places so many things.

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This is one of the evidences the doctrine of the Trinity so When you try to create a contradiction where you find

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Jeff Durbin and Nabeel Qureshi Talking about creation, and oh the Father creates.

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Oh the Son creates contradiction. No that is either Gross ignorance on your part, which is next inexcusable given how much you've heard or gross misrepresentation on your part

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One of the two on the two, but I jumped ahead of myself there and notice by the way

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Jeff I'm sure Jeff's gonna see this but Jeff what do you have on your finger in this picture?

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Do you see that? It looks like he's got one of those things that you used to use when you were doing filing and stuff rubber thing on his on his some it could be a band -aid a very bright blue band -aid a

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Skinny jeans band -aid a skinny hipster Skinny jeans hipster band -aid clearly

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It's some Band -aid of some kind that he got from one of the kids because he probably cut himself and didn't have like the moms have got

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Them all the time you know what I'm saying Yeah anyway Mmm, but but do you notice did you notice how

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Nabil was dressed? I mean he was looking pretty cool he was looking and here's poor

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Jeff and Though that's not that's not a bad shirt, that's that's a little little fancier than normal for Jeff actually

42:49

That's Sunday go to meeting right there, but there are drums in the background. Oh, oh really really so anyway

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I'm sorry Jeff just had to point that out in the beginning with God he repeats himself And he says that what

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Jesus created all things and without him nothing came into being that came into being

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Jesus is described in Ways that cannot be misinterpreted you must just destroy the text

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One of them says Jesus created the world while the other says the father did and Trinitarians believe both because we're not

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Unitarians, which you're assuming. Here's a good example of exactly I just said Muslims assume

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Unitarianism who created the world Yahweh did Does the Bible identify the father is Yahweh sure does

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Yahweh lays our sins upon the Messiah Isaiah 53 Does Bible identify Jesus Yahweh sure does

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Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12 direct quotation Psalm 102 25 to 27 purposeful citation oh

43:52

Jeff just text me Jeff to text me I sliced my finger on a nail down to the bone there was and one of the kids bandage

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So he's actually watching live has got texted so hey, that's that's we can get the information right in there

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Does the Bible identify Jesus as Yahweh certainly does is the spirit the spirit of Yahweh certainly is You just don't get it or you're just misrepresenting it and you're hoping that your audience because see the real danger here is

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The famous black page The famous black page now

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There's only a few people in this audience to know what I'm talking about and I don't I don't actually have it in here because I don't keep my

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Jehovah's Witness stuff in here But many many many moons ago The Jehovah's Witness witnesses had

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The life everlasting on paradise earth book when Jehovah's Witnesses do Bible stays with the action not studied in the

45:03

Bible They're studying a watchtower book about the Bible and for many years the primary book that is this red book they had a big print version and a regular size version of it and The Infamous black page there was a page where the print was reversed the print was in white and the background was in black and this picture of Jesus and It contained

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Purposeful clear Misrepresentations of the Doctrine of the Trinity and it did so within a few pages of an accurate representation of Doctrine of the

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Trinity and the point was that it was a obvious Action on their part to create the idea that the

45:47

Doctrine of the Trinity is self -contradictory That's what Yahya Snow is doing here. Here's the Yahya Snow job is

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You've created an alleged contradiction where there is no contradiction Where if you got

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Nabeel and Jeff together, they'd look at you and go Well, yeah, duh

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One of the very evidences of the Doctrine the Trinity is the the father creates and You have heard this over and over and over again

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Yahya maybe this is just simply a wonderful example of Him who has ears to hear let him hear and those who do not have ears to hear will not hear

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But you have heard this over and over again, and you know why I know you've heard this over and over again

46:37

Because I've discussed it over and over again, and I've discussed it in debates that you've pulled clips from specifically a certain debate that I did with Shabir Ali at the

46:50

University of Pretoria in South Africa Because one of the texts that we discussed in that context was first Corinthians chapter 8 and In first Corinthians chapter 8.

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I think you well know I'm sorry, but you Well know if you've seen you've seen the video or the

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Text that I've put up on the screen from keynote Where I go through and demonstrate what

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Paul has done in first Corinthians chapter 8 in expanding the

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Shema Yet for us there is but one God the Father from whom are all things and we exist for him and one

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Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things and we exist through him and I've talked about the prepositions and I've demonstrated that the prepositions used of the

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Son here are used to the Father elsewhere all this kind of stuff So while it's completely possible that you just tune all that stuff out

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That would also indicate that you don't exercise any Effort whatsoever to actually understand what it is you're saying

48:10

Don't have any concern about accurately representing the other side or You do fully know what we're saying and you want to purposely misrepresent the other side.

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Those are the options Those are the options But one of them says

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Jesus created the world while the other says the Father did they would both look at you and say both Both the triune

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God was involved in all of creation Father Son and Holy Spirit There is no contrast.

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There is no contradiction if you want to actually come up with a contradiction what you need to find is Nabeel Qureshi saying the

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Son had nothing to do with creation and finding Jeff Durbin saying The Son was the only one involved in creation.

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Then you'd have a contradiction. You don't have that Not even close not even close

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This is a I This is a 100 % Refutation of your video.

49:08

There's there's no merit to it It has been thoroughly debunked and the question is what will you do with it?

49:16

Well, what will you do with the absolute debunking of your video? It's foundation is false

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Completely false. So we ask Yeah, yes, no, what are you gonna do when that kind of information has been provided to you that's question now for my fellow believers

49:40

Whether you have this kind of presentation from ya ya snow where you're trying to Not push up using the really

49:54

You Know what the other thing this looks like Well, you know what this looks like I'm gonna prove

50:02

I'm a Trekkie here, though. I'm not seeing the new new Star Trek movie. I'm sorry. I'm I Suppose if it's on a flight someday, maybe

50:10

I'm just not the the Sulu thing. Sorry Just not going there.

50:16

I mean as a big a Trekkie as I am. I'm just I'm just not going there. I can't do it

50:22

But in the first reboot the first movie the reboot remember McCoy's giving

50:30

Kirk all these shots Remember and he gives him a shot and also goes.

50:35

Ah, and he holds his hands up and they're just that's that's what they look like Right. They're just And then

50:43

I think there is I think that one with Arnold Schwarzenegger on Mars I I Think there was one point where yeah,

50:51

I murdered. Oh, that's just it's disgusting. I I understand that when a bee stings you it immediately dies and That is one

51:00

B that I am not going to be attending the memorial for I shit I hope his carcass gets run over by a lot of cars today personally

51:08

Anyway, yeah, just really that's the worst I've ever seen there is no Put that appendage over here somewhere

51:16

What was I saying? Anyway? for fellow believers there's all sorts different levels of arguments that are used and Some of them are deceptive like this and some are just simply based on ignorance and what sometimes you can't tell

51:33

Sometimes you just can't tell What you have to do is you have to have a firm solid grasp

51:40

The definition of the Trinity what it is and what it is not because the vast majority

51:49

I Should not look at the channel because someone just said next dr. Oakley will have numbed tongue.

51:55

Yeah The last authority that's exactly right. We're following the the plot here the vast majority of attacks upon the doctrine the

52:04

Trinity or Christian doctrine as a whole will play on equivocation and redefinition, so When the

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Roman Catholics come after you on solo scriptura The vast majority of the time they misrepresent it and I can't tell you how many times

52:21

I've listened to good hearted believers waste their time defending a

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Definition of solo scriptura that they aren't even they aren't even committed to it's not even what we believe and I've told the story about how before YouTube I used to be able to sneak into like junior high school classes and roleplay and I did it in a church in Florida once and I They'll say

52:53

I'm a Jehovah's Witness or something like that and Man, it really gets their attention when they think they're actually talking to some of one of these groups and then about halfway through we tell

53:03

Them who I really am But it was always really easy for me to Twist The poor young youth minister into a pretzel and turn him into a heretic

53:18

And get him to defend something. He never should have been defending. I remember this one poor young guy, you know

53:24

So you believe in John 1 1 that the word was God, right? Well, yeah, so when Gia said I'm the father we were one you're saying

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Jesus the father there one person Well, yeah, you know I was in 30 seconds.

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I had him spouting modalism and Once you've got them doing that it's over with I can't tell you how many times people end up because They're debating

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Someone that we know is wrong. They just assume everything the person says is wrong and they end up getting

53:56

Shoved into a corner. You have to know what you believe You have to know it well enough that you can express it to somebody else if you want to know if you know something well enough and Try teaching it not just the junior high schoolers, but maybe even a few grades below that See if you can express it without the use of Christian ease

54:18

See if you can do that and it is important to be able to recognize the difference between a

54:27

Proper definition and a slightly twisted definition and be able to express why it's different So know what you believe know the biblical foundations of the

54:35

Doctrine of the Trinity I think one of the key things is knowing those three foundations absolute biblical monotheism the existence of three divine persons

54:46

They're not they're not just manifestations of one person the equality and eternality of those persons

54:52

So when someone denies those things automatically in your mind you can categorize Where their error is so you can go to the

55:00

Word of God for the response because if you don't go the Word of God You always end up in some kind of authority argument about some council someplace and as Important as councils are in the history of the church they're not inspired and as a result

55:23

If you want to leave them with something that's actually going to impact them leave them with the

55:28

Word of God Leave them the Word of God That's what they need to be hearing. So a

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Vitally important to positively know what you believe So that you don't get wrapped and trapped

55:46

Into defending something that is actually indefensible just because you think well

55:52

That's what I need to do in this situation I've seen it happen over and over and over again.

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So Just something to kept in mind I wanted to deal with those if we can get the

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Marcus Rogers video Which it's got to exist out there somewhere Then we'll try to respond to it

56:18

Again assuming that rich does not have to spend every waking moment between now and then Upgrading the stuff and that I don't die that this just doesn't keep going all the way up the arm until I finally just blow up My you know, my mom did something to me once I guess

56:36

I shouldn't say this, but I Wouldn't let her I wouldn't let her pull a splinter out of my finger because it hurt too much and so she told me

56:46

I could get blood poisoning and That little spots would start appearing and they'd start heading up my arm toward my heart.

56:54

What's got to my heart? I'd die And I have been terrified of that ever since Parents do terrible things to us

57:05

And I still don't you know now I just get those those things out of there But I don't know why

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I told you that story, but I sort of felt like doing so anyway, so probably looking at Tuesday Oh When this guy texts me he probably wants to say something.

57:23

Oh, okay, probably looking at Tuesday We'll see if we can get that program repaired and the video up and Jacob Prosh responded to me again and Evidently says that I would be laughed at by any serious scholar for what

57:45

I was said about first in the chapter 2 from my perspective If you can if you can slice through all of the ad hominem and stuff just get rid of all of it

57:54

Um Get to the real issue here The exegesis this is useful by the way a week from tonight a week from tonight

58:06

The announcements are do we have it up on the banner? Not yet, but we need we should but they're on Facebook.

58:15

I've repeated them on Facebook, but The debate in Southern, California on Calvinism is a week from tonight if you're in the area

58:24

Please come out and join us Information I think might be on the

58:30

Facebook page because I I know I've posted it So if you grab that stuff, but we'll make sure that it's up there.

58:36

I know Lane Lane chaplains got on his so We'll go from there.

58:41

Thank you for joining us on this rather impromptu oddly scheduled Swollen divided