Amazing Conversation with a Young Wayward Mormon who Rejoined the LDS after a Near Death Experience

Peaceful Experiences and a Near-Death Testimony

Uh, just really peaceful experiences. I wouldn't say crazy.

Yeah, well when I say crazy, I mean like sometimes people tell me, or I've heard it before, that they'll see some of their dead relatives or something like that in the back. Has that ever happened to you?

Uh, I've felt their presence, but I've never seen them with my own eyes, no.

Oh, gotcha. My name's Andrew, by the way. What's yours? Carson. Carson. Oh, you're good. No, you're good, man.

So, how long have you been LDS for? My whole life. I, uh, kind of fell away for a little while. During your teenage years or something? Uh, just after, actually. Oh, really? Yeah, I'm an addict in recovery.

Jesus Christ as the Eternal Creator and the Trinity

So, I spent about ten years in drug addiction. Oh, okay. So, yeah, I've kind of been able to find my sobriety through the church of Jesus Christ, actually.

Gotcha, gotcha. Well, I'm glad that you're sober. Yeah. What do you think about 1 Corinthians 6? Uh, it says that such were some of you. I would say that if someone finds Christ, uh, the true Jesus of Scripture, that they no longer should identify as an addict, but someone who believes in Jesus, right?

Okay. So, like a recovering addict, I understand what you're saying. Uh, but I'm an evangelical Christian. We're out here doing evangelism. Okay. So, have you ever thought about the differences between, like, just biblical Christianity and the LDS organization?

Or your faith?

Uh, I can't say I've looked into it too much, personally. No. Okay, so did you grow up in Utah? Uh, I did. I grew up in the country down south.

Oh, wow. Yeah. So you grew up in the country of Utah. Yeah. A town of what, like a thousand people or something? Uh, yeah, two thousand. That's a small town. Yeah. So was your family, I'm guessing, also born and raised LDS?

Um, yes.

Yes, for the most part. Um, I believe my grandpa and my grandma, they were both converts to the church. Gotcha. Yeah.

Gotcha. So, Carson, one reason why we're out here is because we believe, through the Scriptures, that Jesus Christ is the eternal God, uncreated. And that the LDS organization teaches a different Jesus than what the Bible teaches.

Have you ever tested the words of your prophets to what the Bible says about Jesus?

Yeah, I've gotten into some discussions with some people about how, you know, whether or not Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God or whether He is God Himself. I've gotten into a few discussions about that.

Yeah. And I can see how that can be a confusing topic. Um, I'm terrible at pointing out exact Scriptures, but I remember... Yeah, just tell me what you're thinking, man. Uh, some of the Scriptures, you know, refer to Him as being one being, but then there's also contradicting Scriptures that speak about Him being the Son of God and how...

Um, there's also Scriptures, I understand, that say that, you know, God and the Son of God are as one. Mm-hmm. You know, so I can see how there can be some conflicting... Some conflicting understandings of whether or not He would be one person or whether there's a literal Son of God and a Holy Spirit.

Yeah, okay, gotcha. So, what the Bible teaches is that there's one God, one being of God that exists simultaneously in three persons, right? So, not more than one being. So, the Bible states that God shares His glory with no one, but then it shows us in Hebrews 1, when the Father's bringing the Son into the world during the incarnation of Jesus Christ, that the Father actually says to the angels, and then the Father actually in Hebrews 1 says,.

So, even the Father calls the Son God. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. One God, three persons. So, it's not like different beings, because that would be bad. If we have different beings of God, then we're not teaching monotheism.

We're now teaching, like, polytheism, right? Or maybe a form of tritheism, which some people teach. But what's interesting about the LDS organization, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but do you believe that Jesus Christ is the offspring of Elohim and Heavenly Mother?

Yes, I do believe that. I believe that God is the Father, but that He gave Christ dominion of the earth and that Christ is the literal creator of the earth, but He created all things in God's image. Gotcha.

So that He is the literal offspring of God. That is what I believe He is.

Okay, cool. So, Carson, pause your phone again real quick, because I want to give you some scriptures to look up a little bit later from the Bible. Let me know when you have your little notepad pulled up.

Colossians 1, John 1, and the Preexistence of Christ

Yeah, of course. Oh, look at that. It's barely there.

I'm trying. Oh, no, you're good, man. I'm patient. And what's your name? Andrew. Andrew. I'm Carson. Yep, yep.

I think you told me that, but I'm forgetful. No, you're good, man. Alright, what are the scriptures? So, one of them is Colossians 1, starting in verse 16. It says about Jesus in Colossians 1, 16, that He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities.

All things were created through Him, and He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. So, Colossians would state that not only did Jesus create the earth, but He also created all things invisible, including Lucifer.

Including Lucifer. And then in John, write this one down too, John 1, verses 1 through 3. And in that it says,. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were created through Him.

There was nothing that came into being unless it was created through Jesus. And what's interesting about John 1 is the Greek. The Greek, which is the original language which the Apostle John wrote in, it states,.

And the Greek word in is what we translate to was in English, and it actually means as far back as you can go. Stretch it out, as far as you can go. From eternity into eternity, Jesus was already there, and that He was with God.

Prostantheon is with God. Meaning that He was in an intimate relationship with the Father. And that all things, when they came into being, the verb used there is egonetto, which is referring to something that comes into being within time and space.

So Jesus, according to Scripture, is before all things, in Him all things hold together, and He actually created Lucifer. So, if LDS theology, I want to hear what you're thinking too, Carson. If LDS theology tells you that, no, Jesus didn't create Lucifer, He's the brother of Lucifer, and you're His brother as well, but the Bible clearly states, and plainly states, that no, He created Lucifer, what does that make you think?

Um, you know, I'd have to look into it all myself, but I also take great caution when I look into some of the some of the New Testament and Old Testament, because I do believe personally that there is that over time, that some of the plain and precious things were taken out of the Holy Bible.

It's from Nephi, right? Yeah, from Nephi, and that just the reason that I feel I can believe that is because I've personally received my own testament that this Book of Mormon is a true New Testament of God that is here on the earth and it just teaches, you know, that a lot of the plain and precious things that used to be in the Bible have been taken out and that some of it has been made confusing.

Right. And so, I take great caution when I look into those things, but I do need to look into them. Oh, absolutely, yeah.

I would assume, like, Carson, if you're a student of the Lord, wants to know who God is, you want to test those things, right? Yes. So, 1 John 4, 1 also written by the Apostle John, it tells us to test the spirits because many false prophets come out into the world.

Yes. So, you have a testimony, right? Your testimony would be, can you tell me your testimony real quick, just so I know it?

For me, my testimony is in the fact that there is a living prophet on the earth today and that he answers to Jesus Christ, who is the Son of Father and that through him, that Jesus Christ, through his prophets in this modern dispensation, was able to bring about the Book of Mormon and that I know that there was many who witnessed the Book of Mormon and the golden plates for themselves and that even those who came to say that they couldn't believe it even testified that, you know, they did see the plates and they couldn't deny that.

And I just, for me, through all the experiences I've had, it's just, almost every day I'm given more and more reason to see how these things are true for me in my life.

Gotcha, yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that, Carson. So, the Bible declares the way you test the spirits is to test it according to previous revelation. So, there's multiple tests of a prophet in scripture, okay?

One of them is Deuteronomy 13 another one is Deuteronomy 18 if you want, you can look those up later as well. Then, you know, Jesus, of course, tests them, you'll know them by their fruits, right? So, what I would want to do is if I had someone tell me, or even a spirit try to tell me something pray about it, if you get a good feeling, believe me I'd say, well, actually, I'm going to test you according to God's word.

So, in Acts 17 11, Paul goes and he's preaching the gospel to the Bereans and the Bereans, he says this in Acts 17 11, he says, they're more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica in that they received the word with all eagerness.

That means they were listening to him eagerly about the gospel. He says but, they checked out to see what he was saying whether it was so. They searched the scriptures daily to see if what he was saying was so meaning they went back to the Old Testament to fact check Paul when Paul was going Jesus is the Christ, attributing the title of the Messiah to him and he commended them.

He said, you're noble you cross-checked me to scripture, right? So, anyone can say they have a testimony, right? So the Jehovah's Witness the Muslim, all of them can tell you that they prayed about it and that they have a feeling that what they believe is true.

How would you respond to somebody if they told you too, I prayed about it I know it's true, yet they're giving you contradicting information.

I would ask what they felt and the exact things that were spoken to them. I would also personally pray that if what they received was from God, that God would confirm it to me also. And then.

You, so, okay, so say the Muslim person tells you to pray about what he believes to see if it's true. And what he believes is this, is that Jesus was not fully God. He wasn't God, he was just a mere prophet he didn't even resurrect from the dead so you prayed about it and you got a feeling telling you hey poet, buddy, don't kick that and then you got a feeling that what he was saying was true, you would reject Mormonism and then be a follower of Islam?

If I knew it came from God.

And for me, I know that there's a few different ways that God speaks to me and it comes from the combination of three things what he is speaking to me will manifest itself plainly and clearly in my mind as well as the burning of the bosom my chest will begin to burn and thirdly, these things that are spoken to me will stand the test of time meaning that at any time forward in my life I can look back and I can remember exactly how I felt and exactly what was said to me.

And I know that my own brain is highly incapable of remembering what it is, so that's how I know it's from God, is if I remember exactly what it was and exactly how I felt and that it was a feeling of peace because I believe that Satan is incapable of recreating the feeling of true peace.

When God speaks to you, he is the only one that is capable of creating true peace.

Within your heart. Interesting, interesting. Because 2 Corinthians 11 actually tells me that Satan masquerades as an angel of light and that his apostles look like they're doing righteous works but they're actually workers of unrighteousness it seems like they're workers of peace.

He even appears as an angel of light. To confuse people, I would say scripture actually declares something different about Satan. He would actually try to make you feel comfort in order to reject the true Jesus and believe.

Something else. Right, and I personally have had experiences in my life where I feel he's tried to do this with me but it always creates a feeling of confusion it always creates a feeling of unsurety and even though I might feel somewhat comfortable and not intimidated it's still not that feeling of true peace as if knowing that like, I am perfectly comfortable in this moment here and there and I just have never been able to see how Satan can replicate that in my mind.

Gotcha, so with peace.

When you say peace, can you help me understand what you mean by that?

Peace, it's a for me it's a feeling of true, the art of truly being present, the feeling of feeling completely comfortable in the moment with the thoughts, with the emotions with the things that you see for me.

If I'm feeling peace now I know that I don't need to worry about what comes next in the day, I don't need to worry about what just happened behind me, but that I can stand here and that I can breathe and just take in the air and the scenes around me without any feelings of contention or any feelings of stress, and I can just truly be in this moment and be content and happy knowing that I'm in this moment.

Ah, gotcha, okay.

Peace with God, Repentance, and Justification by Faith

So I was just trying to understand because as a evangelical Christian when I hear peace I think like shalom, like peace with God, that typically since I'm a from the posterity of Adam, I am born fallen, I'm born with sin.

I know that your article of faith the second one would state differently, it says we deny the original sin of Adam essentially but I'd say that I'm born in enmity with God, and that in order for me to have peace, shalom I must fully rest on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who is the eternal God who satisfied all of the righteous requirements on my behalf he was perfectly obedient to the law, born without sin, and then crushed and bruised for my iniquity and through faith in him I, when I die, will stand before the Father justified, which is like a forensic term meaning declared righteous before God through the righteousness of Jesus.

So do you think you have peace with God in that sense? Because when I look at the book of Mormon and I hear 1 Nephi 3 .7 for example, states that there isn't a commandment that God has ever given man that man cannot actually achieve.

You can look it up, it's 1 Nephi 3 .7 and then I hear things like when Jesus says, be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, I've heard it taught through the LDS organization that that's a command of God, and that can be achieved, right?

And then coupling that with Moroni 10 .32 which says, if you deny yourself of all ungodliness and love the Lord with all your might, mind, and strength then God's grace is sufficient for you. My question, Carson, would be, have you done that?

Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness and currently in your life right now have you loved the Lord with all your might, mind, and strength, and are you perfect?

I'm not perfect, but they do very clearly state that it's not just to become perfect, but to strive to find perfection and no one is expected to be perfect in this life, and that's why we believe in the resurrection and in the afterlife, you know, that like he's trying to teach us how to become perfect and does not expect us to be perfect today but expects us to work towards perfection.

And you can compare it almost like to someone playing the piano, and as you're playing and as you're learning the piano you're not going to be a perfect pianist right off the bat and that you're going to miss notes, but that you give yourself grace and that you understand that you're trying to learn the song perfectly, and knowing that it may not happen today, it may not happen tomorrow but so long as you're working towards it, that you.

Can be saved. Yeah, I believe it's Alma 34 that clearly states that it's this life is the life that you have where you have to prepare to meet God. Have you ever read the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball, the 12th prophet of the LDS.

Organization? I began reading it, I've never finished it. I'm terrible at reading, the ADHD gets to me.

So he does a hermeneutics or like an exegesis to the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, and he actually comes up with a different conclusion than you, he actually anticipates your response when, this is an LDS prophet by the way, he says that there's a man in this conversation that's not necessarily real it's a hypothetical conversation, he says but Spencer, you're telling me I must be superman, I can't be perfect to the commandments, and he says this, he says you are superman, you are God's in embryo, and you have to prepare to meet God in this life you don't have a chance after in order to reach the highest level of heaven it's this life where you must be perfect it says no unclean thing can dwell before God, when he says be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect, the way Spencer W. Kimball interprets that is that, no actually, you must and you can, he says actually in the book striving isn't good enough, did he say this is the life where we have to prepare to meet him, no no, he says this life is the life where you have to be perfect.

I'm telling you right now I'll have to look into that, yeah I can send you some quotes if you want to exchange numbers as well, later if you ever feel, like I can send you a text and Carson, again, I don't want you to lose faith in anything, I want you to find true saving faith in Jesus Christ, the one of scripture who says this come to me, my yoke is easy and my burden is light because he's the one who satisfied everything.

Grace is this Carson, it's unmerited favor from God, it's something I don't deserve, if you have to work for grace, it's no longer a gift that's what Paul says, none of us are held righteous according to the law.

No, we all stand condemned according to the law, but it's Jesus and his sacrifice that gave us everything that we need to inherit. Righteousness doesn't mean I live a life of sin but instead when I believe in Jesus Christ on faith, the Holy Spirit takes my heart of stone, replaces it with the heart of flesh, and causes me to want to obey him, so my repentance is this, it's turning away from the things I once desired and now desiring to love and honor God.

Yeah, and I would say I have a similar definition of repentance, oh that's good, alright good, alright, cause there's weird things that I've read in the miracle of forgiveness like where repentance is never doing the sin again, or I believe it's, I'd have to look it up off the top of my head, I think it's Doctrine and Covenants.

I wish I could remember exactly which one, but it says if you sin, right if you sin in this life, all of your former sins get placed back on you in my repentance in my repentance and following towards God, it's not now that I have to be blameless to the law, it's because I could never do that, it's that my desires have changed now in that I love Jesus and I know what he did for me perfectly right, nothing that I did so my worry Carson, is when you get a different Jesus when you get a different Jesus than what the Bible gives you you're eventually going to get a different gospel and in 2 Corinthians 11 I'm warned that there's people who will come and preach a different Jesus, a different gospel and a different spirit, so if you take Jesus okay, who according to the Bible is the eternal God, unchanging the same yesterday, today and forever if you take him and say no he's the offspring of heavenly father and heavenly mother, a mere created being so when he comes and dies on the cross, he actually can't satisfy the wrath of the true eternal God, that means you must do X, Y and Z, you must be obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles in order to reach everlasting life.

So we believe that he is the God of this earth.

A God, the God of this earth, okay. So do you worship Jesus as you worship heavenly father, yes. Oh okay, so so you.

Worship Jesus. Yes, Jesus is the mediator between us and the father, he is the God of this earth, he's the creator of this earth but he did all things in the will of the father.

Right, yeah. No I would agree with that. So at Jesus though just so I can understand your beliefs because sometimes LDS people their beliefs differ. Okay, so you believe that Jesus is not the eternal God, that he's the offspring of heavenly father and heavenly mother.

He is the first begotten son of the father, yes. Okay, so he's not fully God he's a created being, yet you worship him as the God of this earth but not the same way you would worship heavenly father. Right, I worship them.

One in the same, one in the same, okay interesting and that's typical for most LDS.

People you find, it should be, okay because I've heard other people tell me things like no they don't necessarily worship Jesus, they worship the father, but that's interesting to hear.

We do things all for the glory of the father in the name of the son. So we do all things for the father the same that Christ would, but we do all things.

Through Christ, through Christ, okay gotcha, so when you do all things through Christ, can you specify for me what that means, just so I can understand you.

Well because he is the one he is the only one that's brought perfection we cannot do anything, he's given reign and dominion over this earth because he is the one that came here and overcame the sins of the earth and the only way that we can glorify God is by using him and his atonement, the only way we can communicate with God is through Christ, who is the literal God of this earth, who is the creator of this earth but he is the son of God.

Gotcha, okay. So how does his atonement affect you then.

In every way I've had an obsession of addiction for most of my life. I prayed for a true change of heart. Just a couple weeks ago, I couldn't get myself to change. I had a literal seizure.

When was that? Three weeks ago, you had a seizure. Three weeks ago? First and only seizure and it was.

The only way that God could push me far enough to know to be able to get rid of that obsession that I had and to be able to.

Focus all my things on him. What do you mean by the obsession that you had. So you've been clean for.

Three weeks, at least three weeks. Gotcha, what's up buddy.

Addiction, Agency, and the LDS View of Salvation

Yeah go ahead, that's my son Poe. Alright. So you've been clean for three weeks a little over three weeks. Tell me about your life a little bit then before we get back into some more of the bible and stuff, so you've been clean for three weeks, so you've had this experience with a seizure and you did you call your parents or something and they're like hey you need to get back to church, how'd that work.

No it was completely my idea, my decision my parents, yeah I'm born and raised in the gospel but they leave us up completely to the agency, I'm a 25 year old man, they're not going to try and push me, they know.

Oh I'm just wondering what happened after you called them up.

Yeah they came to the hospital and they cared for me and they made sure I made it back home safe and that was that and for me the obsession was gone and I knew that it was because of the saviour and his atoning sacrifice that I was able to have that obsession removed, I knew that the saviour was the only one that could enter my heart and purify it and cleanse it, right, gotcha, okay.

So how do you know then it's not the saviour who sent me here to tell you that you're actually worshipping a false god, the one that contradicts the previous revelation. So if you have an, listen to this.

So if you have an experience in your life that's solidifying for you in a belief, well now here I am in front of you also an experience in your life who's then telling you, this could be the chance for you to actually have salvation and rest fully completed in the sacrifice of Christ, instead of the obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles, how would you know?

Well about 35 minutes ago I was told the second you leave this building you're going to face immediate opposition, okay. And I faced immediate opposition towards my beliefs in many ways just within the seconds of leaving the temple, I mean I was forewarned before I even left the temple that this would happen.

Yeah well on Thursdays we're always out here so they're probably just going to tell you that because we're always here on the corner. No, someone didn't tell me that.

Oh you felt it, I felt it in prayer.

Gotcha, okay gotcha, alright fair enough, so how do you know that that spirit then is from God?

Because I felt peace, I knew exactly what it was saying. I felt chills across my whole body, there was a burning from head to toe, there's no denying God truly speaks to me.

Gotcha, so I've had an experience as well, Carson. My experience testifies to me through God's word that Jesus Christ is the uncreated, unchanging God who fully satisfied the wrath of God on the cross on my behalf perfectly obedient to the law that he's not the offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, that he is actually the one who did create all things in heaven and on earth, even including Lucifer and that the Mormon gospel is a false gospel.

So how do you handle that? So I have a testimony as well, so how would you handle that? I handle it by.

By commending you for believing in Jesus Christ, well which one though?

That's the question, whichever form.

Of your higher power that brings you peace at the end of the day. And I am going to say that I myself have a different meaning of and understanding of Jesus the Christ, and what only one can.

Save you though? Different Jesus, different gospel, different spirit in 2 Corinthians 11.

I believe that Jesus Christ, regardless of which one, is going to be happy with both of us for wanting to go out and teach others that there is forgiveness possible for you and for I. How is forgiveness possible, Carson?

By believing on him you believe that, purely on believing on him?

Yes, by trying to be a better person. By trying to be a good person.

Is it by trying or by believing? By trying.

By trying what is belief if you're never going to do anything on it?

James chapter 2 says faith without works is dead and James is talking to believers in the context and what he's actually declaring is that if you believe in Jesus, your heart is changed and you obey what Jesus says, so there's fruit that comes from your belief, he's not saying that you have salvation through your works no, it's since you have salvation your good works will follow, he's talking to people who are already believers like in Ephesians chapter 2, it says faith, if you think you can be justified by your works, essentially shut up.

Goobs, I didn't even realize that was you, brother. I didn't mean to mess up the conversation.

What's up, I'm Andrew. I'm Andrew. Oh, ok, cool. We met at the God Necessary for Ethics. Oh, nice.

Are you Christian? Yeah. Oh, wow, I'm just talking to your buddy Carson here, then. Yeah, my man it's good to see you. Have you talked to him in 3 weeks? No dude, tell him what's happened to you recently Carson, we say goobles goobies.

My last name is goobly, so everyone has some kind of variation. Tell him what's happened to you Carson.

Your buddies, I want them to know what's happened. So I've been to rehab 5 times, right? It's heavy, heavy in addiction been trying to get over it. I've been praying all year that I'll be able to have a complete change of heart comparable to Alma the Younger that's what I've prayed for, true Alma the Younger experience, and over the last few months, I've had a very intense change of heart.

First of all, I felt in prayer. God was like, you're not going to be able to make any friends for a little while. I'm not kidding, for about a month and a half I couldn't make a single friend, I was completely alone and I felt true, true true sorrow true desolation and then, as soon as I reached out to God after that, I was he was like, hey, this is what life life without me looks like.

And so I was like, okay, awesome, it's great to see that I still couldn't quite get over my obsessions, I still had my addictions, I took a stimulant about 3 and a half weeks ago and I had a seizure, woke up in the hospital it was a really long seizure, like my roommates called paramedics, I bit my tongue like almost in half, like super healed now, but like they looked over and I was bleeding and I was about to asphyxiate on my own blood.

I was about to die they laid me down, got me to the hospital and ever since then ever since that day, I've had a complete change of heart, I haven't had any desire in any way, shape or form to use again, which I mean, you've known me since high school since high school, I've not been able to get rid of the obsession, every single day is an obsession so yeah, I decided that day, I'm going to go and serve a mission my papers are getting sent in on Monday so I have 3 months until I'm too old to serve a mission and I just feel like I just feel like I've had that change of heart.

I feel like that's the best thing for me. Did you get away from all that stuff for 2 years? Yeah, well before I was looking at a mission almost like, hey you know what if I live that lifestyle, I'm forced away from drugs but then I was given my perspective has completely changed, I feel as though I've been freed, through the grace of the Savior, from my addictions and I want nothing more than to go out and to teach others that through the Savior, you can be saved and that, you know, it doesn't matter how low you've been, you can find peace you can find happiness in this life.

Yeah, so yeah, we've been talking and just chatting about things and I was telling them, it's also extremely possible that not only did God make you have an experience which may have resulted in you going to the LDS organization but also it's possible that God sent me here to tell you that the LDS organization preaches a false gospel and a different Jesus one that cannot save according to experience.

So it's the question now how do you know whether the organization is from God or someone who's preaching the gospel to you is actually from God. And he would say that it's a testimony right, like he was just telling me before he even walked out of the building after doing baptism for the dead.

He was like, you're going to face opposition and so now here I am as like the opposition to Carson.

But then I felt more opposition than just, you know, talking to people. No, no, I know I suffer from a pornography addiction and almost the second I walked out there was someone wearing shorts that were way, way, way too short and the butt was hanging out right in front of me and I just had to like look at the ground as I'm like walking up and like immediate opposition and I was warned of that right before I walked outside.

So Goobles help me out. Is it Goobles or Gooblies? Gooblie.

I'm never going to get it right I'm just going to call you Goobles so help me out because I was trying to explain the difference to him between striving for the atonement or actually receiving the grace of God through faith.

So help me out to explain this to your buddy here since you guys have good history. Well.

There's no amount of striving that anyone could possibly do that would ever merit any sort of grace. I found that on my mission I went to Tennessee and I was surrounded by Baptists and, you know, Reformed Christians and also a bunch of cults.

And I thought I have to climb that ladder. I have to have faith, I have to repent I have to be baptized I have to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have to endure to the end these things. I must do otherwise I'm not going to be approved, I'm not going to be accepted of God.