Intense Christian vs Mormon Dialogue!

Apologia Studios

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00:06

This church is teaching you a false Christ. You're on public property now, sir. But God says,

00:14

I am the Lord, I do not change. But He does change. The Bible says He doesn't. We're finite, we're creatures.

00:25

He says all time is present before God. He can go back and forth, all things are present before Him, right?

00:30

Okay. Do you believe that? I believe that He is all -powerful, that He's all -knowing. All -present. He's omnipresent.

00:37

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. He's eternal, though. Hold on now. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

00:43

And the fact is, is when one of the prophets said, I believe this is what he said, As man is,

00:50

God once was. As God is, man may become. Lorenzo Snow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And so a lot of you guys are like, hey man, that's bulls**t because God has been the same yesterday, today, and forever, and how can

01:00

He be man, therefore you are wrong, right? Sure, dude, that's just fine with me. But my point is, if you look in your lapse of time, if God was born and was a man and has a body, which we believe

01:09

He does, He lived in a time, in the beginning, and then He died, and then after He died,

01:15

He went into eternity, and all things are present before Him. So therefore He is in existence from all eternity to all eternity.

01:22

Except Joseph didn't teach that. In the King Follett discourse, he said, we've imagined and supposed that God was

01:28

God from all eternity, which is what you're trying to say? No, no, no, yeah, yeah. And he says, I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see.

01:36

Okay, yeah. Okay? And he says, you've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you. And I'm saying that's the same path that all people walk.

01:43

Right, okay. Because if... That's all I'm saying, man, is if you look outside, some man is born, he dies, and then he enters into this lapse of eternity, becoming just as the man before him went, and that's all my point.

01:55

Okay, but the only thing I want to... My name's Jeff, by the way. Jeff, nice to meet you, man. What's your name? John. Okay, John. So, Joseph came along and gave the revelation.

02:03

That's why you believe it, okay? Now, before Joseph came along and said... Moses came forward and gave revelation, and that's why you believe it.

02:10

And right, now, I'm pointing something out to you, okay? Now, who came first, Moses and Jesus or Joseph?

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Does it matter who came first or last? Absolutely, because God says in His Word, through Moses and Jesus, that there is only one

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God, none before, none after. You won't become one one day. Now, Joseph denied that.

02:30

So, my question to you is, if God says in His Word, in Deuteronomy 13, here's one test.

02:37

God gives us a test for how to know if somebody's from Him. And one of the tests was, if somebody comes...

02:43

If they've said a false prophecy... That's one. That's one. Okay, but the other one is, if they lead you after another God, then

02:50

He's already revealed they're a false prophet. And who are you to tell me who God is? I'm telling you what

02:55

He says. Because it's a personal relationship. I'm telling you what He says. That's personal interpretation. Well, I'll give you just the text. Ready? Okay, dude.

03:01

Deuteronomy 4, 35 through 39. Okay, man. He is God alone in the heavens above... Psalms, there are many gods, man.

03:06

...and on the earth below. Psalms, there are many gods, bro. No, no. Sir, it's not true. So, if you're quoting

03:12

Psalm 82, Psalm 82, when He said, I said, ye are gods. He says, to the unjust judges, you will die like men, you unjust judges, is who

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He's talking to. That text is not a positive text calling people gods. It's a condemnation text.

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Because the judges were supposed to act in God's place as righteous judges, but they were unjust.

03:32

And so, He tells them in a condemnation, I said, ye are gods. So, hold on, hold on, hold on. So, after we die, is it not said that we're all resurrected?

03:39

Absolutely. And at the final day, we're resurrected, yes. Okay, and what do we become at that point? We have, what do we become?

03:45

Are we resurrected? We're just resurrected beings. You're resurrected either to eternal life with God or to eternal damnation.

03:52

And if you were in eternal life with God, how would you be any different from God? Well, you're an image of God. You're not God. You're not a

03:57

God in embryo. Absolutely, absolutely. I'm not saying that I'm God at all in His aura. I'm just saying, you die, you go to live with God.

04:05

What's the difference between you and God? Oh, there's a huge difference. I'm a creature. He's the Creator. So, you're still a creature at this point?

04:11

Oh, absolutely. I'm a resurrected creature. I'm a resurrected creature, image of God.

04:17

Are you going to be with animals? Well, there are... Okay, yes. On earth, we are going to spend eternity with God on a renewed, perfected earth.

04:25

I believe that it's going to be this very earth renewed. Okay. Okay? And what we will be is resurrected saints.

04:32

But we won't be in any way as a God or a God in potential. Okay. Because God already said that He is the first, the last.

04:39

Besides Him, there is no God. Right. And when Adam partook of the fruit, he said... John, real fast. You said right. Right.

04:44

But you can't agree with that. No. No, no, no. Look, I'm saying right, great for you, man. Absolutely. That's fine. No, but what do you say to God, though,

04:51

John? What do I say to God? Okay, just real fast. Just one question. One question, okay? I am the first.

04:57

I am the last. I am the last. And there is none... Besides me, there is no God. Okay, I got you. But you don't believe that.

05:02

I do believe that, but I believe that it's up to personal interpretation of the Scriptures. But you don't believe that He's the first or the last. I believe...

05:08

Look, man, if you go into... You can't see beyond what I'm seeing. You're not seeing what I'm seeing. I'm saying we're in a lapse of time, a line that's drawn straight.

05:17

That is time. Outside of time is eternity. Right. And neither in eternity or in time does

05:23

God say there were any gods before Him or after Him. He's the first and the last in eternity and in time.

05:29

There is no time in eternity. So of course He's the first. All are the first, and there is one God, which are all united in the same thing.

05:36

But Joseph denied that. But Joseph denied what you're saying. Joseph denied what? Joseph denied that's what you just said.

05:44

No, because all is one. If you are all one... No, no, no, no. Again, again, it comes to personal interpretation.

05:50

All is one is more of a Hindu belief, not a Mormon one. Yeah. I'm feeling you on that, man.

05:57

Okay. What I'm saying is that if you believe the Godhead are three individuals, then... Three persons.

06:03

Three persons. Right. One being. You believe in three beings. I believe in three beings. Right. And then billions...

06:09

But they're united in one cause. Right, but then you believe... One cause making them one God in that sense.

06:15

Not the same essence or being. Don't tell me what I believe. I'm telling you they are three beings and they're united in the same thing.

06:20

I know you believe that. Making them one God fulfilling one purpose to bring the immortality and eternal life of man.

06:26

I know you believe that. Okay. I wasn't denying you believe that. I'm just saying that as soon as other people go out there, they have that same purpose.

06:33

Except Mormonism teaches that there are billions of other beings that have become gods.

06:39

Right. And God says that he is God alone. In the heavens above and on the earth below, there is no other.

06:47

In the heavens and on earth, the only one. May I interrupt? God was once a man, right?

06:53

What? Yeah. Yeah, right? So he had a beginning before he went to eternity, right? So Joseph has taught that God has had a beginning.

07:02

Once again, man, you're talking about the lapse of time. If God was born... But he had to start somewhere. Absolutely, he had to start somewhere.

07:07

Yeah, and that's a false God. God said... Hey, you keep your eye on Turtle. Okay, dude, what

07:15

I'm saying though is that... There's still a starting point with what you claimed. No, I'm saying in eternity, all things are.

07:23

But he was once a man, right? He became a man, yes. He became a man, just like all of us. So he became a man and started as a man, right?

07:32

Once in eternity, always in eternity, until born on earth and then you become in a time lapse. After you go out of the time lapse, you're back into this realm of eternity with a physical body.

07:41

There's still a beginning with your God. No. That's what I'm trying to get at, sir. Eternity is... That's what Jeff was trying to get at as well.

07:46

No, no, no. If you guys look... Mormons believe that all matter is eternal. Absolutely.

07:52

And so that's what he's getting at. Matter, spirit, eternal. That's fine. And what I'm saying is, even at the beginning, eternally spiritual, that's fine.

08:00

Right. Spirit existent from material. Born on earth, okay, receives the material, dies, becomes like God, the gods, becomes like them, okay?

08:13

The ones that went before him. No. In that sense. And then he enters back into that eternal realm, becoming just like all the other ones.

08:21

And there is no first and there is no last because all are the same and there is no time measured in eternity. So you just denied the scriptures.

08:27

I did not deny the scriptures. You did. How did I deny the scriptures? You said there is no first, there is no last. God says that he is the first, the last. Besides him, there is no

08:33

God. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there is no first and there is a first and there is a last. But I'm saying as people are born and born and die and die and die and enter into that same eternal realm, there is no one first and one last.

08:48

Yeah, but God says in Psalm 90 verse 2, from eternity into eternity, you are

08:54

God. He has been God from all eternity. You believe he became God. Look, look, look, look.

09:01

All up to personal interpretation. I just quoted it. Yeah, great job. You'll notice that when I merely quote it, when

09:08

I merely quote it, it immediately confronts your belief system. Yeah, yeah, hold on, man. And when God and Christ appeared to Adam and they said, this man has become as one of us, right?

09:20

Immediately right there, it tells me that there's two of them. Three persons. There's actually three persons. Oh, it's like,

09:26

I forget. It's like dimensions. Okay, man, I got to go watch this show. Okay. I pray that God opens your eyes, my friend.