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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.
And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line as long as we will be here. Anyway, you probably can't hear it, but I can hear the the melodious sound of a Very very intense thunderstorm right on top of our location here right now and I'm watching the cameras and I don't think either of our cars are in danger of washing away quite yet, but They are certainly getting a washing.
Let's put it that way. It is it is coming down big time here in Phoenix. We watched these huge thunderstorms coming in at us. There are only two colors left in the color band on the radar for intensity.
It is a big one. So Let me just let me just say this right now. Roman Catholicism is wrong. King James only ism is wrong. Buddhism is wrong. Islam is wrong. Atheism is wrong. Mormons are wrong. Jehovah's Witness is wrong.
Therefore if we get knocked off the air everyone can claim That that their group did it that's that that's how you that's how you do it so. That that way there's there's there's no confusion whatsoever.
On the program today before we get back to. It's blowns are out there. It's blowing the wind right into the camera at the moment. So I'm that's good. That's not gonna look very good very long. Before we get back to the slicks and Jenna's discussion.
Obviously, I needed to make some comments about some new material that has come out in regards the great evangelical cover-up. This is very interesting it's new information. Because it is relevant. Very relevant to the Ergen-Kanner situation because it comes after.
The exposure of of Ergen-Kanner that began in February of this year. You remember that he posted his non-apology apology and then pulled it. It's amazing how many of his how many of his supporters Geisler Guthrie?
They all say well Apology enough and no one can find it. He pulled it off his site after about two weeks and. And of course, it wasn't an apology for anything in specific other than well I've made some misstatements and there was some there was some Muslim guy that I said I debated that I didn't I don't know who I Debated as if that has anything really substantive to do with the actual issues of the mythological creation of this.
This Islamic background and studying and and training in madrasas in in Istanbul Cairo and Beirut. Those are the three we have so far. Who knows what else would come up, but those are the three we have so far and.
So he spoke May 1st and 2nd in Southern, California in San Diego and. And I was sent the CDs of the The talks that he gave and they are very interesting. He sounded a bit flustered. He sounded off his game.
Because he doesn't have his schtick to do now. He doesn't have he had had to be careful about what he was saying. And it was amazing some of the things that came out. For example, one of the things was very interesting is he's always claimed to be a hundred percent Turkish and we've all gone.
How can you be a hundred percent Turkish for mom Swedish? Well, he claims in this that his mom is actually Turkish born but adopted By a Swedish family and I'd be a great story. I don't know if it's true or not, but that would be a great story.
His entire story would have been great if He just hadn't embellished and lied about all of it. It would have been great. It would if he had had the proper theological foundation. What a story it would have been but to.
The problem now is obviously By his own actions. He's made it very very clear. He doesn't think that it's all that special because of course he had to change it and That is that is the problem. So I've got some things to play here.
That were very very interesting I'm gonna skip past some some portions. For example in the first CD. He was talking about how biblical debates are always informal. I think that's his way of defending his claims to have done all these debates when of course he hasn't.
But disc two was most interesting to me and then I want to get to what's really important in some of the things that he said. Well, just just listen if we're ready to go here listen listen to what He has to say at this point.
These are the people.
That you will have to deal with in the church When it comes to presenting the gospel when it comes to evangelism when it comes to apologetics. First group haters. Now we're talking about 2010 so the interconnectedness of our world and The anonymity of the world wide web.
Some people are only courageous in front of a screen and.
With an anonymous tag name. I have a feeling I know who is referring to there none other than our dearly beloved Turretin fan who pointed out when we heard this that Cantor was involved in the production of a book.
I think his voice is behind the veil something like that. Where a number of the people were in fact? Anonymous. But you know that that's okay. That would be looking for consistency, which really wouldn't be otherwise.
These are the people. Yeah. Okay, I didn't want to do that. Some of them how.
Let's see here. Look at the last group next hiders. Yeah, we'll start here. There are those who legitimately like the haters. Do not believe That you should be in the marketplace at 17 16 17 18 19. Uh Liberty has got its mix.
I Have a good number of students that probably can't stand me. I teach theology 201 202. I teach philosophy 104. I teach all the apologetics classes. I got kids who evaluate me who just to eviscerate me just Exaggerate me.
They just can't stand just he's evil. He's whatever some of them however theologically. Do you guys know who Brian Broderson is? Calvary Chapel.
Brian Broderson and I have a common Hater. That mmm, I wonder who the common hater between arrogant canner and Brian Broderson would be. Hmm, I have to smile a little bit because I Just I just would never expect that someone who has been a seminary president would use this type of terminology.
You know, don't be a hater, you know, I hear that but that but it but it's. It's hard to take that seriously. It really is. What I mean who takes that kind of thing? Seriously, but evidently arrogant canner does for some reason and I will come back to that because that's the flamer group in the second And flamer flamer and that verse catching them all here flamer and hater.
Well, the kids who come come from different backgrounds different denominations 80 different countries 50 states 80 different countries and. They come from three different educational systems when they walk into Liberty University.
Some come from the public school. So when I do campus church, usually the first okay, and then let's go to the the next one here. Because this one gets this is this is where he finally gets around to me and hiders will critique you and they are brutal.
But all of them are The the haters who say it's a waste of time usually it's theological. I Told you dr. Broderson and I have it's a super lapsarian is the actual term for he's a hyper Calvinist and a hyper Calvinist who.
Hates me and Can't stand Brian. Catch that who? Hates me and can't stand Brian. No, that's a lie. Of course, and we're used to hearing arrogant canner uttering lies. But You know you're trying to create this, you know this this persona, you know and and I'm being persecuted and these people are haters and and.
So so the best way to do that in a in a church who would have anything to do with Calvary Calvert Chapel would be. He's a hyper Calvinist. Now a canner knows better and we can document that too. I mean, it's it's it's always one side has documentation.
The other side just has lies and Anybody can look at the documentation on our website where we Had the interaction back in 2005 2006 With Eric and Kenner and went back and forth and attempted to patiently deal with this, ma 'am.
We dealt with this false accusation and it's right there. But he doesn't care about the fact that he's been refuted on that I'm not standing there so he can say what he wants and that's Just sort of how the Ernie canner thing has gone for well a long long time now.
And can't stand Brian and he went after dr. Broderson and he does podcast and vlogging and video and even dr Broderson in his graciousness because he's much nicer than I am. But he and his graciousness he even uploaded a letter and said look I have nothing against you guys.
Here's what I believe and here's why I believe it. And the guy ends up just an hour-long podcast on that. So.
What y 'all need to understand is that back when we? Responded to the Calvary Chapel program now remember Eric and Kenner was on the Calvary Chapel program attacking me back in January. He doesn't mention that.
He doesn't mention lying about saying saying that my debates are like the Jerry Springer shows. Talk about that. Let's let's just let that pass see. You know once you just start living so dishonestly it just starts oozing out of every pore I guess and and you just can't speak the truth anymore.
But you need to understand that the discussions that we had about first John 5 1 and The depth we went into the text and and all the rest that stuff that just. That's hater. You're being a hater. If You respond to theological issues exegetical issues the way we did on the program you're being a hater.
That's the world that Eric and Kenner lives in and I think that explains some of his behavior. I think it really does.
You're gonna have to settle with this issue. In Galatians 6 Paul says in verse 10 Treat each other well, especially to those who are in the household of faith.
Prop. All. Right, so let's go to the next one. Because we've got a phone call and and things like that I want to get to the next one here. Yeah, this one right here. I anticipated it with the Muslims I've been dealing with it forever.
I didn't expect the Christians or people that call themselves Christians to act that way. But it shouldn't surprise anybody. Be prepared. When they started attacking our testimony, I'm gonna even take it deeper pastor if it's okay I'll take just a little bit longer on this.
I started taking it deeper. I went to my chance.
Let me just stop just a moment. I I thought I had let me see if I can find here. There is. I guess I did not queue this up. I apologize.
And we come to America. I've been sharing my test. There's a whole YouTube channel. I had gotten pastor. We first spoke. We were supposed to come in February and it was a snow in and God it was part of it.
May have been just that God was giving me break because it's been six months. There's a whole YouTube channel dedicated to saying that I was not a Muslim and That in here was not a Muslim and Erdem was not a Muslim and our father was not a devout Muslim.
We were raised as the sons of a man who was so devout. He did the call to prayer was in.
Georgia, let me just mention it does not require a particularly high level of devoutness. To give the call to prayer. I'm sorry, but that's just bogus. Now. Maybe that's what he was taught. Maybe that's what he thinks.
I don't know, but it's bogus. It doesn't make you an islam. It doesn't make you a scholar of Islam that you give the call to prayer. I. That's that's just a fact that anybody who's familiar with Islam knows it.
I anticipated it with the most. Oh. And you're from here to me to mention many men and men are.
Where were we. We're around 1122. Part of it may have been just that God was giving me break because it's been six months. Here we go there's a whole YouTube channel dedicated to saying that I was not a Muslim and That in here was not a Muslim and Erdem was not a Muslim and our father was not a devout Muslim.
We were raised as the sons of a of a man who was so devout he did the call to prayer was in a Jar Mohammed John my father. And we come to America. I've been sharing my testimony since I got saved 27 years ago.
And yet When YouTube became real popular in 2006 this this Muslim guy out of London Started getting video clips of me and dissecting it. He mispronounces this I'm not Arabic. I'm Turkish.
Um, that's good. We know that you're not Arabic, but you're Turkish. But you claimed to speak Arabic numerous times and your website used to say That you would debate imams in Arabic in mosques.
Notice how things change. Over over time. If you know the Middle East a couple you obviously do because y 'all been there. There's Persian. There's Anatolian and there's Arabic and the Arabs are only 20 of the Muslims worldwide.
And everybody else speaks Arabic phonetically. It's like Catholics who memorize the Latin. You do it. You may not know what you're saying and you can do it reflexively. If you came from a Catholic background and I just pop out a piece to you.
You just go and peace be unto you.
Is this supposed to be a defense for for example staying in front of an audience and claiming to Have explained the entire story of Abraham and Isaac in Arabic at the Dome of the Rock to Muslims And then telling him to get out is Is that?
I'm sorry. Go back. Listen to the places where canner has claimed to speak Arabic to know Arabic to debate in Arabic to be able to lecture In Arabic all the rest of stuff and now compare this. Um what kind of a person when caught lying like this.
Then makes up a new story. Is it the person who's repented of his lying or the person who's trying to hide his lying?
I think the answer that is obvious. Yeah, don't you sleep man came from your whole background? So the YouTube channel was Muslims. Hey, I've been doing with that forever and You learn to live with it.
There's reasons you guys couldn't advertise. Maybe the ways that you've advertised in the past. There's things that I have to do. There's precautions after that. It's the way we live in here and I have to live this way.
My younger brother. But about eight months ago six eight months ago. They got joined up. The Muslims got joined up with a Christian group.
To hate on me. Let me let me replay that the the Muslims got joined up by a Christian group to hate on me. That's that is what he says, let's listen listen to it again. The Muslims got joined up with a Christian group to hate on me.
So there you go folks if if you have thought that this issue had to do with integrity in the pulpit integrity in ministry. Reaching out to Muslims and doing the right thing in regards that. You've joined up with the haters and you are just hating on arrogant can.
Um, obviously I find that so far. Beyond the level of absurd that it's it's hard to describe. But there you go. They're hating on me.
Amazing now that is painful. Because you don't see it coming.
That's what happens in church fights. You don't see it coming. Um, he shoulda. He should have seen it coming because when when you lie. Regularly like he was lying. You should expect that you're gonna get caught.
One more section from this second Session in San Diego. I.
Anticipated it with the Muslims. I've been dealing with it forever. I didn't expect the Christians or people that call themselves Christians to act that way. But it shouldn't surprise anybody. Be prepared.
When they started attacking our testimony, I'm gonna even take a deeper pastor if it's okay. I'll take just a little bit longer on this. I started taking it deeper.
Now this is an interesting insight into canners take on the politics of Liberty Seminary. Listen listen to how he handled it. I anticipate. Sorry.
But it shouldn't surprise anybody. Be prepared. When they started attacking our testimony, I'm gonna even take a deeper pastor if it's okay. I'll take just a little bit longer on this. I started taking it deeper.
I went to my chancellor and I said chance or these guys have a website that's called fake ex-muslims something. Says that my brothers and I were not Muslim and it's by a Muslim who says, you know, for instance.
He speaks with a Turkish accent. Well really really. Another one says I have absolute proof that his nickname is butch. I tell everybody that The people call me butch, you know, they're from from my family my wife's family.
Now, of course, I'm not sure he's referring to there. We have mentioned the fact that There has been notice again. This is the same this is why I think the stuff that Geisler posted came from canner because it partakes the same kind of atomization where you take Individual facts you remove them from the context in which they were originally enunciated and then say oh, this is ridiculous.
For example, why would it be relevant? That in the 1990s when you do searches on for example when canner was involved after the Columbine shooting. His church was nearby and there were some quotations of him.
It was it was either arrogant or eat butch canner. That was cited. Why would that be relevant? Well, it would be relevant because the assertion is that there was there has been a purposeful creation of a persona on Ergon canner's part since 9 -11 and That this has involved the moving of his arrival in the United States back by or forward by a decade so that he can live In an Islamic country so he can be trained in madrasas in Turkey and Lebanon and Egypt.
So that when he comes here, he's he's this person who's been committed since the age of nine to this concept of jihad. That's that's what's necessary. In fact, let me give you a quotation. From the talk that he gave to the US Marines, which will be appearing soon enough.
Quote my madrasa in in Istanbul Turkey my madrasa in Cairo Egypt. There is no question what the doctrine of jihad was it is only when we come to America we hear westernized Islam. We hear those who say Oh Islam means peace that we start pulling back the veil a little bit.
I was sworn to jihad at the age of nine until I was 18 years old and I became a believer in Jesus Christ. Now there's a lot of reason to question that 18 years a number. Given other things that he said there's still inconsistencies in his timeline.
But the point is we know exactly where he was when he was nine we have legal documents. We have his parents fighting over his religious education. We have his have legal statements where he's not allowed to leave the United States at this very time period and So standing in front of the Marines he's telling them.
Well, you know I was I was in Cairo Egypt or Beirut or Istanbul or whatever flavor of story. Is you know happens to be going on at that particular time? But the the reality is that We know where he was and we know this whole persona that he's creating for himself.
So just simply saying well somebody said my name's Butch there ain't much to that. That wasn't the point the point was that prior to 9-eleven you had him. Because I would imagine of course that the reporters talking to him after the Columbine tragedy asked him for his name and That means the name he gave them was Butch.
He didn't say I'm Ergen Mehmet Kenner. He said Butch and this is part of The information that is relevant to an evaluation of the mythology That he has created for himself, but notice this this is exactly what the Geisler stuff did.
I think I think Norm just took whatever can't send him and published it. I think that's what he did. There's I don't see any Any deeper reflection and that's why I said. I think we're seeing What what Kenner produced back in April that if you went by his office you could pick up?
As we talked at that particular that particular time.
So I took it to the Chancellor. I said Chancellor Just because I'm accountable to you. I want you to see Proof he goes. I don't need proof. You've been doing this forever. You write books. Do you really we write books under our own name.
A lot of people in our world use pseudonym to cover I? Don't know if Shabbat is a pseudonym, but Abdul Salim Wrote a great book called answering Islam.
Actually, he co-authored the book with Norman Geisler, and it was the same Abdul Salim. That Ergen Kanner claimed to have debated and put into his mouth a denunciation of the cross of Jesus Christ. Same guy same Ergen Kanner.
Here knowing that Abdul Salim. And of course this is one of the things I asked him in my emails. Before this went public I asked him to explain this. He wouldn't. But now he's talking about in this way.
Abdul Salim means slave of the cross. We chose to write under our real names.
So we knew it was coming. We didn't know that was coming so the Chancellor said look two guys become presidents of two Colleges two institutions college in a seminary. I don't think that you could pull that off.
You know they're looking for Mike Warnke. Moment. Yeah, they were.
Well we have a Mike Warnke moment, it just hasn't happened yet. At least in Kanner's mind it has in many many other people's minds. The the evidence is Significantly greater here than anything in regards to Mike Warnke.
It's it's there. It's open. Only those who have vested interests and political alignments are doing anything other than.
Recognizing that so much so that the Christians hired somebody to go to Columbus, Ohio where we lived and To the courthouse, and this has been about three weeks ago and Got my parents divorce separation and appeal papers.
Of course that's untrue as well. Those were obtained obtained. Via normal channels. It did not. You did not have to hire anybody and have to send anybody to Columbus, Ohio to do that. There are people such as Jason Smathers who know how to make the proper request through the proper channels.
It's called public information. It's all out there. And again, it makes you wonder. I mean, I mean, that's been something. Many many times and yet it sounds so much more because again what he's doing the same thing here.
He's always he's trying to create a myth. This time the myth of these terrible nasty Christians who've joined up with the Muslims to hate on him. And it sounds better that you would hire somebody to go sneaking around.
Rather than going well, actually we just use the normal channels that anybody who knows that stuff actually knows how to do.
You know and uploaded them to the web my whole Life is on the web. My gun permit is on the web my Which I'm sort of happy about. But you can imagine how my wife feels when our whole world is on the line.
You know, we've had to move three times in Letchburg and now we.
Catch that. We if if if I had some some violin music to play here it would help. But this is an entire. I am the victim I'm being hated on. I've been attacked. I'm such a wonderful Christian because these people are attacking me thing.
And he just claimed that well, we've had to move many times in Lynchburg evidently because of these. What is it? How many fatwas has he claimed to have had. 11 fatwas something like that? And now they have made they may have to move again.
Why. Because We've exposed the fact that he grew up in Ohio. Why would that that would. I suppose maybe what he's saying is I may have to get another job. But this was May and that was before the investigation stuff so.
But it's all it's all this. Creation of mythology. Oh, yeah, I mean, you know, we may be in danger again, you know, what? What for for being exposed.
It doesn't doesn't make a lick of sense. So I didn't see that because when it comes to flamers When it comes to people you can't shut up. You have to shut him out. You can't shut him up.
You have to shut him out and I guess that's his explanation for why he doesn't respond. He doesn't answer. He's gone silent since June 25th. Is you just you just shut him out because they're haters see there's nothing you do about him.
Yeah, well That's how you that's how you handle that now just a couple other things and we'll try to Sneak these in here and then take phone call. Well, actually if we can Let's get let's get the break because I want to get to the phone call and I want to get to this This next section because this is what's most important to me.
Yeah, all that's interesting and and Honestly, you know, I I just find it pathetic That you would identify Your your opponents as your haters in this way and and just completely ignore what their real issues are and it's sad but what really Concerns me beyond this is the fact that this man is continuing to be put in positions of teaching theology and apologetics in in churches and schools.
It really concerns me it's concerns me because People are being taken in one of the one of the most vocal Defenders of Ergon Kanner from the beginning has been a man by the name of Tim Guthrie. And I never knew what the connection was.
I found out recently what it is if you go to watchman org the watchman fellowship and You look at the board membership list That is currently posted there. You will see James Walker Ergon Kanner and Tim Guthrie in that order and So Ergon Kanner and Tim Guthrie both are board members of watchman fellowship.
I Did not know what the connection between Guthrie and Kanner was now. That only makes Guthrie's incredible lack of rationality in How he has handled this situation. And the things he has said all the more amazing because that's on the board of one of the best known apologetics organizations in the United States.
He yesterday Tim Guthrie that is posted Kanner attackers in the military where he Said that rumor has it That the men out to destroy a brother in Christ are about to use the military in their approach.
That's the grossly prejudiced and prejudicial and bigoted way of saying that. Earlier last week back on Monday. I tweeted the fact that the recordings of Kanner's talk to the Marines have been turned over and That material will be made event available.
But then there are some some things he says a few points he says here. Number one it is easy to notice lately that the story was about to play out. Another attack is required to keep the front lines going.
Why there is nothing new in their new revelation. See, this is this is how they are purposefully attempting to promote the idea that well, we just need to lay low. We just need to hope this is going to go away.
Kanner never has to address the the issues that need to be addressed. We'll make it through this thing. If we just we just stay quiet, you know, if we just. You know. We just want to let this all blow away.
People will get tired of it and they're right at one level. I mean people have short attention spans and They'll take any excuse just to move on to something else. Number two the cry is for this continued pressure to force repentance out of dr. Kanner.
They are good at playing God. This is clearly a case of piling on while dr. Kanner has publicly repented both in a public statement as well as in a campus church venue. Well, dr. Kanner is no longer president of LBTS.
These hateful men want a scarlet letter for him to wear. It seems that unless dr. Kanner repents in front of them. God will not grant for him grant forgiveness. Excuse me, but once again, mr. Guthrie just has no connection with reality at least on a biblical reality that I can see.
You can see the irrationality the emotions so-and-so forth that's what we've come to expect from mr. Guthrie, but notice what he says here. He has publicly repented both in a public statement. What public statement.
That was a statement that a is no longer on his website. It's been removed and B was not repentance about lying about living in Turkey lying about madrasas in Istanbul Beirut or Cairo. None of that he didn't address any of that.
What did he specifically say? Well, I made some misstatements in my public, but we all do and The one thing he admitted was he hadn't debated Shabir Ali, but he didn't didn't even have the guts to say Shabir Ali's name.
He said I don't know why I said that I. You know, I can't remember. It's in Lincoln, Nebraska. I can't remember I debated I guess. That was not repentance. Mr. Guthrie, and if you think that's a repentance and you are one of the most naive men I've ever met in my life.
I Hope you don't let your kids get away with that kind of thing or didn't one or the other and. Then what is this campus church venue? I'd like has anyone seen this anyone heard this. Whereas what did he repent for did he repent for the entire mythology?
He's made up about his life about speaking broken English at his conversion. Because he had just come here from Turkey when he'd been here since 1969. Where was the repentance for that? Mr. Guthrie. Number three who determined that these James White minions remember this is their own name.
He's referring to the website ale minions. As if and all these people think I'm behind all this stuff. They have no idea. They don't realize you know, I have I have six debates coming up this fall on a wide variety of subjects and they're real debates.
You'll actually be able to listen to them. They're not fake debates and I don't formal debates. I'm not going to Starbucks and look for someone who looks as like they have Middle Eastern Accent and say have you read the Quran?
I'm done and call it a debate. That's not what I'm doing. I'm actually doing real debates. But I'm not behind all this stuff. I don't have time for it. It says have the role of knowing whether or not this repentance is needed.
Who set them up as the ones to motivate this activity and what. Just why was the February 25th statement not enough? Well, because it wasn't a statement of repentance for any of this stuff. Mr. Guthrie.
That's why. What about the actions of Liberty? Well the actions of a very very biased organization, we don't even know who is on the committee and a seven sentence statement if you think that's enough to Deal with this issue.
Then again, you are as naive as the day is long. You you would have would you would you have accepted a Seven sentence statement from Jim Baker's ministry clearing him of all charges. Evidently you would have had to have or you're hating a brother in Christ.
What amazing? Statements. He is no longer Dean. Could it be a discontinued attack simply proves they want destruction regardless of their cries. No, sir. We actually want something to be dealt with. We want the truth and what's we've gotten are the lies that Norman Geisler is posted on his website.
Nothing more excuses. All sorts of issues utterly ignored and you know it. Any rational person knows so there's Tim Guthrie, but who are the people coming to his defense. Tim Guthrie fellow board member watch me fellowship.
His brother. Well, he's got a vested interest. Norman Geisler. Veritas. Always a connection always a connection. Now as I said, what really really really bothers me is the fact that Ergen Kanner is being allowed to continue to teach and in these San Diego recordings he addressed the doctrine of the Trinity.
Now, let me remind you of something. We played a number of months ago Ergen Kanner's Trinitarian faceplant his Trinitarian meltdown in the context of a Oneness Pentecostal associate pastor asking him a simple question that any former Muslim in any position of leadership whatsoever should have been able to knock out of the park how can the Sun be the same age as his father.
A Simple question relating to the relationship of the father and the son. And Any former Muslim who cannot answer that one probably Isn't much of a theologian in any way shape or form. Because that's something that you'd have to be explaining to your family and all your friends.
It would be one of the first things that a former Muslim would have some understanding of. Let me remind you what he said.
Let's listen in we have room for yes, please and I'm thrilled because this is one of one of your Assistant pastors, please.
How could there be a father and be a son when they're co-eternal. There's never been beginning of days. There's never been the end of days. So I ask How could how would you know, which one's the Sun?
Because they've always been all of them have a forever always been.
All right, please make sure I restate your question correctly. You asked the question if in fact There's always been a father always been a son and always been Holy Spirit and that they didn't have a beginning.
They didn't have an end that they are eternal. That how is it that a father can have a son who is his same age? That the both of them have had no beginning. The sonship of Christ. This is an issue of progressionism in Scripture and it's also the issue of the incarnation that Jesus is part of the creation.
Colossians. Again, the citation of the plural you also have the Holy Spirit who has been eternal the Spirit moving on the waters but His sonship comes in incarnation that when Jesus is Incarnate God the Father sending the Son.
It is that moment that the the term carries with it the the more than just a metaphor. Now he is the Son of the Father. He that's why Jesus says I have not come to my will I've come to do the Father's will.
He is the second person of the Trinity and always has been. But in terms of when Jesus refers to himself as the Son that's a messianic term both Son of God and Son of Man were messianic terms the fulfillment of prophecy in the Old Testament and To be fulfilled the incarnation had to take place.
God had to put on flesh. He didn't come to earth to be God He was God before he left. We call it we call it son any more than trying to understand the Trinity explain the Trinity to define the Trinity is Impossible.
However, we try to do the same with the text we say here you got God the Father who is defined clearly as God the Father. You have God the Son who is defined clearly as God the Son and you have God the Holy Spirit who's defined clearly as God the Holy Spirit.
Either God becomes schizophrenic again to take the metaphor or We have a superman or what we call modalism. That is he's God the Father goes back in comes out as the Son goes back in comes back as the Spirit you.
The problem is you either have what we call the vacant heaven view or you have a God who is a Son who is The incarnation of God who is lying about himself and in calling himself equal when in fact He's just referring to a spirit part, but not his flesh.
Okay. That almost made no sense whatsoever. That was one of the worst explanations I've ever heard. It left the one this guy completely befuddled to as well it should. Lots lots and lots of problems there and we addressed this before.
Now before we go to our calls and and hold on there Justin. We're gonna get to you. I want to play to you a brief section. This is only. This is a couple minutes. Where Tanner. Just a few months ago. This is May 1st and 2nd.
So just a little while ago talks about the doctrine of the Trinity. To this group. Now put yourself in the in the audience and.
See what you would have thought guys every definition. We've given of Trinity trying to explain what a substantial trace persona Every everything we use doesn't work. See the Trinity is Somehow God who's three persons has one substance and they coexist simultaneously and they don't need each other.
But they depend on each other they fellowship with one another and yet it's not a dependent relationship. How does that work? The Bible says God the Father's Father is God that God the Son is God. And God the Holy Spirit is God and yet all three are God and yet not the same.
So sometimes we say well, it's different capacities. God the Father created God the Son redeems God the Spirit convicts fine but Colossians 3 and Colossians 1 and Colossians 3 teach that Jesus was part of creation, too and Genesis says the Spirit troubled the waters so you can't really use that and It says the Spirit sent Jesus down and it says that the Father sent Jesus down that God so loved the world He gave His Son and so they all participated in redemption.
And if you want proof boy Ephesians 1 the whole chapter in Ephesians 1 shows how God the Father Participates in salvation how the God the Son participates have got the Spirit for space and salvation. Then we go to illustrations, it's like water.
H2o h2o is in three forms. It's ice and it's a solid it's gas and it's a liquid. But all three are h2o. Yes, that's a fair illustration, but it's not perfect because it's not all three at the same time.
Ice cannot be gas gas cannot be water and water can't be ice at the same time. So that one doesn't work. How about the egg? The egg. This is what this is famous because the Pat Robertson used it as an illustration and Somebody just decimated him on it.
The egg the shell the yoke and the white it's all the egg. But again, the yoke isn't the shell the shell isn't the white and the white isn't the yoke. How does that work? Guys, there's two illustrations and you're looking at them right now.
You're around them every day your you've been in the middle of it. There's two great illustrations of the Trinity. The whole world is triune. Why would it confuse you that God is what do you mean? At the end of this finger is a point in time and space just one little point this is a massive room.
It's just one little point at the end of this finger that point at the end of this finger is triune. It is both height measured from the floor width and depth and It's all three at the same time and height is width and width is depth and depth is height.
I'll stop there and.
As I listened again and I think most people Would at least grant that at least this is one doctrine. I know a little something about I've written on it defended it. I Can I can try to find a way to understand most of the things he was saying if I try really hard but I've got a good background the subject and I cannot imagine what the people sitting there listening to that we're thinking and Yet that's what people are going to be exposed to.
Why I don't understand. I do not Understand now we had a caller and we lost the caller Justin to Juan who said That Tim Guthrie has not been on the board of Watchman Fellowship for over a year. Well That may be so but that means that Watchman Fellowship hasn't updated their website in over a year.
Because if you go to watchman .org and then go to the contact us and go down to staff contacts You will see what I'm looking at and under board members Dr. Robert Stewart James Walker Eric and Kenner Tim Guthrie Jerry Holbrook Bob Anderson Jeff McLean Alice Pitchford Laura Arnn and David Henke those are the names listed currently on Watchman Fellowship's website.
I can only go with that what that does clearly indicate is exactly what I was saying. There's the connection. If he's not now, it doesn't matter. That means he was that means he served as a board member at the same time that Eric and Kenner did because he's listed together With him and that then becomes the connection that exists between the two so my my Concerns continue on and there are reasons for that because I keep seeing lists of conferences and Churches where Eric and Kenner's could be speaking and yet nothing Dealt with in regards to the real issues that he has continued to be silent about.
Dr. Kenner, when did you live in Turkey. Point to the madrasa you studied in in Istanbul. Point the madrasa you studied in in Cairo. Point the madrasa you studied in in Beirut. Give us addresses. Tell us what Street was on.
What part of the city was it in? And explain how you studied in those madrasas at The same time that the documentation tells us you were living in, Ohio. If you left Ohio, when did you leave Ohio? How long were you gone?
Why did you say you were having to learn English that you spoke only broken English at your conversion? When you went to primary school in, Ohio. Explain these things. Dr. Kenner cuz you haven't so far you keep hiding behind it.
Well, I was really a Muslim. I've never said anything else. Answer the real questions, it's necessary 877 -753 -3341. Let's go ahead and sneak these calls in before we run out of time and talk with Justin up there in Grand Rapids.
Hi Justin.
Monday night in Dearborn.
Well, so the Monday night one where we had the fill-in opponent, yeah. It was. Well, anyways, let's go on from there.
Question from John 3 16 only began son. Why you use the King James. Because the King James the NIV, etc, etc.
Interesting. Well the term that is translated there, of course is monogamous the the term itself The reason that it has been translated as begotten in older translations and in some modern translations is is due to the fact that the understanding was That the when you when you see the term mono ganace you see mono only and then The the assumption was for a long time that that the rest of the of the word went back to get not Oh, which means to beget but that would require two news.
It would have to be to what we would call ends there's only one end in in monogamy here and So as a result, we recognize that it's actually built on the term genos Which means type or kind hence? And there's an extension extended discussion of this in It's oh I think it's in the Forgotten Trinity and I may have actually touched on it briefly now that I think about it in The King James only book because that comes up obviously as you just saw in in in that realm as well, but more than once I have put together a discussion of the background of A monogamy monogamy Especially John 316 other places like that, but it comes from the term genos, which means kinder type.
So monos only genos kinder type means unique or one-of-a-kind or Only son as it would be used in this in this particular context Only begotten actually is somewhat misleading because it is based upon the idea that this is gonna Oh, which means to be get when it's actually genos, which means kinder type.
It's I wouldn't call it a erroneous translation. But a possibly misleading translation if you if you read into it the concept of origination something along those lines. That would have to come from Context and not from the actual use of the term, but here it's being really used as a title tan huyan tan manogane the unique son.
The only begotten son is the King James Translation, but I have to explain this all the time to Muslims who think that Because it says begotten that that means it happened at a point in time in history or something like that which interestingly enough goes right back to what we were just talking about there can canter and What is the relationship?
What is the begetting relationship between father and son? Well is it is eternal it is a relationship it is not a point in time that something took place and Muslims are wrong to look at monogamous and read into it the concept of of birth origination creation all those other things that come along with it, so That that's really what the background is there did he give any any Discussion of the original language or is it just I prefer this over something else.
Yeah, because.
Yes, yes, well yeah ESV for God's love of the world that he gave his only son NASB still has only begotten son there. Though I think in a footnote they do provide a little more information on that NET his one and only son is very good at that point so.
Yeah, you have to you have to understand where that Where that term came from and what it really means, but Interesting that that they wouldn't allow any use other than the King James at that point. That's that's interesting.
Yeah, okay. Well, I appreciate your patience and hanging on. Okay, thank you very much. All right, thank you Justin and now we talk with Johnny but a different Johnny Johnny in Indiana hi Johnny. How are you?
So far goes along with my question and you might have actually answered it in all this to help me to You know get a little closer to it. I need two aspects of my question one is if this is heretical What is cause and then why does it have to be like this?
What I'm asking is why does G? I believe he's co-eternal co-existent. What's the other one so? We just said a few stuff people. You know he's all those things. That Relationship of father and son. Why does that have to be eternal like why does he always have to be the son?
Couldn't he have just been a person of the Trinity like during the Old Testament and then become the son and incarnation? Well, there are there are people who have believed that. And promoted that we're getting a lot of feedback on your line.
Sounds terrible. I'm gonna have to answer your question off the line. Are you listening to the program? Yes, that'd be fine. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right. Yeah, that's a. That was that sounded really odd.
I'm not sure what was going on there how we were getting feedback on that, but there I would not call it so much heretical as as incomplete. Because it limits the the sonship of Christ those who say that that Jesus is merely the second person of the Trinity Are not seeing that the relationship between the father and the son is an eternal relationship.
And it is a it is an intimate relationship. What is being described by father and son is not merely Incarnational as Eric and Cantor actually put it in his response to oneness Pentecostal pastor, but it is relational and Just as the father and son send the spirit and there is a relationship in the sending of the spirit.
This is part of how God has revealed himself to us so it's part of the economic Trinity, but to to say that the sonship is not a part of the essential description of the relationship of father and son is to limit sonship only to the economic aspect and not to the actual ontological Trinity the relationship that exists in eternity before creation itself takes place and.
So I just don't see any reason to do that in light of the fact that for example The Paul can very easily speak of the Sun is the one through whom all things are created. This is this is very active creation itself.
And it's the Sun that is attributed to both in Colossians 1 in Hebrews 1. Someone might argue. Well, yeah, that's only the Sun as we see him. I just don't see that in the text all so my concern for those that limit sonship to a merely incarnational concept is that that removes it from the ontological Trinity and I think That's one of the primary ways in which we recognize the distinction between the father and the son.
Is is in that utilization of that term? I'm gonna take this really quick me. We might have to go a little bit long for a moment here. But Larry in Kentucky's called in. Hi Larry Doing good.
Right. Only translators use that. And then also do you think that passage actually is talking about.
Well, it could be. There there are a number of places where Kings are addressed as the as the primary application. But there's a secondary application goes beyond that. Such as you have in Ezekiel. I believe as I recall 18 as well.
But the text is Isaiah 14 12 how you are fallen from heaven O day star son of dawn is the ESV's rendering of that particular Text the numeric stairs how you have fallen from heaven. O star of the morning son of the dawn.
Both are referring in the Latin Vulgate when Jerome translated this he used used Lucifer which means bearer of light and That's where star the morning or shining one comes from from the Hebrew and so that then became associated through interpretation as a specific name for Lucifer and Entered into the theological vocabulary from that point and The Latin Vulgate was extremely important to the King James translators.
It was the one of the primary Sources they utilized. It has been argued that many of them not all but many of the translators were better at Translating Latin than they were at the original languages themselves.
And so it entered into theological vocabulary at that point. As I pointed out in the King James only controversy what you've got here is the same situation that took place when? Jerome translated the story of Jonah and Utilized a term other than what they were accustomed to in the in the Greek Septuagint at that point.
He accurately translated the Hebrew as castor oil plant. Well when that was first read to people in Carthage they almost rioted because someone has changed the Bible. No, actually someone has just translated the Bible more accurately than the translation.
You were accustomed to and that's exactly what you have going on the King James only you've you've become accustomed to a particular Translation and someone comes along and rather than getting all emotional about it.
What you should do is ask. Is this a better translation? What's the reasons for this translation? But it's a lot easier to just come up with wild-eyed conspiracy theories and Tell people that all the terrible horrible nasty Bible translators Are trying to hide something when they're when all they're trying to do is be faithful to the original text.
They're translating and you just don't have Lucifer in the Hebrew and so when that's what you're translating. That's what you need to translate and that's why they translate it consistently the way that they do.
As to the interpretation of the text It certainly looks like there is there is an application being made here. The initial application is to a king but what is being attributed to him? Can I think in light of the description of Lucifer, especially in the New Testament be seen as having that secondary application, but There's there's no attempt on anybody's part to try to be hiding something about Lucifer or anything else and especially when they then Go to the the text in Peter and say ah see you're you're trying to make Lucifer and Jesus the same person.
This is only an indication of people like Gail Ripplinger's utter incapacity to do meaningful exegesis in context it in no way shape or form is a Support for any kind of King James only argumentation.
Well, the only the King James got this right? So It's just a matter of accurately handling the text and doing so in a consistent way. That's really all you're dealing with there. All right, Larry. Sorry, that was a little bit quick, but we we actually went over a little bit just to get to that.
So, thanks. Thanks calling in. Thanks a lot Alrighty. Well, thanks for listening to the dividing line today. We went a little bit long there but I like to get folks in if they've gotten their calls in right toward the end of the program and once again, hope that The continuing efforts to seek for integrity and truthfulness Even in the evangelical community, which I think is what we're supposed to be doing.
That's what I've been doing for a long time Is is something that you can support we will be here Tuesday, but not Thursday of next week. So we'll see you on the next dividing line. See you then. God bless.
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