November 7, 2017 Show with Costi Hinn on “The Historical Roots of the Word of Faith History”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's.

Our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this seventh

day of November 2017, a very snowy November 7th

here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, proving once again that God does whatever he wants to do.

There was no snow forecasted on the five -day weather forecast for Carlisle, and it

is really snowing very heavily out there today.

I don't know if it's going to accumulate, but it is indeed snowing, but that's not why we're here today.

We are here to discuss something very important, and I'm very excited to have as a returning

guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Kosti Hinn.

He is the nephew of renowned Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn, and he's the executive

pastor at Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California.

Today we are going to be discussing the historical roots of the Word of Faith heresy, and it's

my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Kosti Hinn.

Thanks, Chris.

Good to be here, brother.

It's great to have you back, brother.

I really thoroughly enjoyed our first interview where you gave your testimony of how the Lord

drew you out of the Word of Faith movement and saved your soul and drew you

into the doctrines of sovereign grace and even into cessationism

in regard to your pneumatology, and it is such a joy to have you back.

If you could, let our listeners know once again, especially for those of our listeners who have not

heard you either on my program or in any of Justin Peters' interviews with you,

tell us something about Mission Bible Church of Tustin,.

California.

Bible Church is, first and foremost, a Bible church, so we preach the Word

that continues to demand biblical

faith.

Our teaching pastor is Anthony Wood, and he's a great brother, a great friend, one of my closest.

He continues to fill that pulpit each

week and do a great job, and he does.

He's very gifted for that, and we have a plurality of elders that oversee the church, and

we're all together as one voice.

Great

leadership, thankful to be a part of it,

and we're a

continual growth as people come wanting a

biblical community and a place to grow about the

wavering winds of culture changing what we're preaching from the Word of God, so thankful to be a

part of that.

It's a privilege to be in ministry, more of a privilege even than that is being saved in that

after Spirity Gospel, and thankful

to be part of your family now, Chris,.

And getting to know you, and yeah.

Amen.

Praise God for that.

It's interesting, something that you just said.

I just recently got involved in a online

debate with a number of feminists who were angry that

I did not invite women pastors to a recent Iron Sharpens Iron radio pastor's luncheon

that I had.

It was exclusively for men in ministry and a woman

in the pastorate in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which is the most liberal wing of

Lutheranism.

In fact, the Missouri Synod Lutherans and other Lutherans wouldn't even really consider

the ELCA a Lutheran denomination at all, and I would agree with them.

But anyway, there was this debate that erupted

on Facebook over the fact that I did not invite women, and there were some angry women, and

one of the women said that she looks forward to a day when society

will enlighten the church in a far greater way as to the equality of

men and women in the church.

Now, of course, those of us who are complementarian believe that men and women are equal in the

sight of God, and they are equal in their value and worth.

It is just that God has assigned different roles to us.

But it is interesting that this woman was counting on society to teach the church.

Instead of the church being a light to the world, the world is supposed to be a light to us, according to this woman.

Isn't that frightening?

Absolutely.

I mean, at the.

End of the day, we need look no further.

I mean, at the end of

the day, you know, ecclesiology,

having a music style,

if you look at

the Bible

out the

window and

do your work, it's

going to be the.

Bible does it.

Amen.

And of course, I do love my dear sisters in Christ who are genuinely born -again believers who I believe are

mistaken by taking upon themselves the role of pastors.

But there are many out there who are seeking to honor and obey God.

They're just misled and sadly and seriously mistaken in that area.

But that is not our topic today.

In fact, I want to let our listeners know that those of you who are very curious

about Kosti Hinn's testimony of abandoning the Word of Faith

heresy, you can go to ironsharpensironradio .com after this interview is over,

ironsharpensironradio .com, and go into the archive.

All you have to do is type in H -I -N -N and that last interview that we had with

Kosti will come up.

And you can also hear a testimony of Kosti Hinn at Justin Peters' website.

Justin Peters, who is a remarkable brother in Christ, who actually wrote his doctoral dissertation on

Kosti's Uncle Benny, which I thought was fascinating.

And Justin and Kosti have become very good friends.

Justin Peters, one of the primary missions that he

has in life is to expose the dangers and the heresies of the Word of Faith movement.

He has had a disability, a very serious disability since

childhood, and he has a very heartfelt passion

to expose those who are giving false hope to those with

disabilities by offering them healing if they have a strong enough faith or a large enough bank account.

And it is so good to see that Justin and Kosti have become such good friends.

But the website of Justin Peters is justinpeters .org, justinpeters .org.

And tell us, Kosti, about this series that you are involved in with Justin Peters right now.

Yeah, we completed a series of videos just yesterday, and they're going to be going through

beyond the testimony.

And so, again, you can share it with you as well.

Creased together is even maybe some

of the stuff we discussed some of the

modern issues that we're facing, you know, well beyond my uncle, looking at

Bethel Church, Jesus Culture, Bill Johnson, some of the latest movements.

I'm a millennial, so me, like a lot of young people, would consider old guys

like Kenneth Copeland, kind of old

lineage.

Justin and I dealt with a lot of these modern movements, because people have big questions.

You know, why is or isn't teaching heretical?

Is he a heretic?

Is that even a proper word?

When do you use that word?

We dealt with that, as well as talking about sovereignty and suffering, big, big

doctrinal shootings, and

we essentially, they're a model

biblically for suffering.

What do we do in that?

Theology teaches is that you're the problem if you're sick.

Your faith is the issue if you're not experiencing breakthrough.

We go to the Bible on those issues, and so Justin and I had a great time.

Because he has cerebral palsy, he makes the perfect case study for a man who is faithful to God's

Word and not experiencing what Johnny Erickson taught is

another one, and I dare somebody to look at Johnny Erickson

taught.

I dare somebody to look at Justin Peters and say, your problem is faith, Justin, or anybody else

for that.

It's not a faith.

So we dealt with

a lot of

things.

Package them into a DVD, so if people want to purchase it in a package, it

will be free on YouTube.

That's right.

We don't believe in

the Holy Spirit, and so we answer a

lot of

those questions.

It's.

Some fun.

Well, praise God for that, and once again, the website for Justin Peters is justinpeters .org,

justinpeters .org.

I am praising God that he has raised up both you and Justin Peters to

fill a void that Hank Hanegraaff left.

I don't mean to be mean -spirited, and I hope nobody assesses my words as being mean -spirited, but it is a

tragedy, I think, that Hank has entered into what appears to be apostasy.

He's become an Eastern Orthodox, and dare I say,

well, I will not say, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, but he has become Eastern Orthodox, and

that's a serious departure from the gospel he once declared, and therefore I no

longer view him as a trustworthy advocate of the Bible.

I do not any longer view him as a Bible -answered man, and he championed

the exposing of people like your uncle and many other word -of -faith advocates,

and it is sad to see what has happened to him theologically, but please pray for Hank

Hanegraaff, because not only is he in very dangerous waters spiritually and theologically,

he is also dealing with cancer, so we would love to see him be

restored both spiritually and physically through this trial that he's going through, and I don't mean

to undermine the seriousness of his physical

situation, nor do I want anyone to just totally abandon him, and I would

love to see all of you pray for Hank Hanegraaff's restoration.

But today we are, as I already announced, we're going to be talking about the

historical roots of the word -of -faith heresy, and by the way, if anybody would like to join us, our email address is

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at

gmail .com, and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Well, tell us about the roots of the word -of -faith movement as far back as

you can trace them.

In fact, perhaps you should start with the roots of Pentecostalism,

at least in.

Summary form.

Yeah, in summary form, so you have, and

people have written books on this, and they're easy to access,

but if you look at the term Pentecostal, you're dealing with

1900s, birthing out of, of course, the 1800s and the Holiness Movement, in which you see

characters like, you know, around 1906, and that's

where you'll usually trace.

There's a lot of rabbit trails you can go down in

history for the simpleton, which is me.

I mean, in layman's terms, if you go to the early 1900s and study Charles Parham's

life, you begin to see

become very obvious things like

speaking in tongues and actually teaching that tongues is evidence of the baptism

confusing

Parham.

Now, I'm not an expert as much as I'd like to be, and I aspire to be on

Earth, but you do have instances, even

in the very ecstatic

utterances, why there were

councils is not so a lot of

feel smart.

It's because they were dealing with

similarities.

And what would

be the

approximate

date of

that?

Charles Parham is your guy that's about 1906.

That's where you're looking at, like, the

Azusa birthing out of

Parham, late 1800s, 1873 or so,

and he lives until 1929.

So early 1900s, late 1800s, a lot

of weird experiences.

He's called the father of the apostolic faith for a reason, because a lot of the new apostolic

Parham enjoyed.

He taught a lot of false doctrines about salvation, about tongues as evidence of that salvation.

He had time.

Wow.

Ironically, it's

in that range.

You've got the Azusa

street revival begin,

ironically, see

this at least.

And he ends up actually, and

actually says all the work there and going on is of the devil.

And early begins to merge.

And here's what I mean by that.

You get the merge dangerous.

And what I have found to be true, which I'll keep tying it back to what's going on today,

Superman watching all this, a lot of what we'll talk about today

gets confusing, because

he plagiarized E .W. Kenyon and so on.

Benny teaches all of this, and he doesn't really know what he is.

But then Osteen will preach, but then he doesn't wave his jacket and knock

people over, right?

And so everyone begins to grab on to the things that they view as the work.

You can have divine revelation.

Now, you know, you can speak in tongues, and they would claim that it was Chinese or something

that begins that.

You know, I always like to look at what's going on around the big picture, around

the whole world.

You look at what was happening over in the UK, around that same

time,

a guy like

Smith, Todd

Bentley, who

himself one time for beating on people.

And he said, there are some times when you pray for the sick, and you're apparently rough, apparently, but you're not

dealing with a person, you're dealing with the satanic forces that are binding that person,

compassion to all in

the body of the sick one, and you deal with his position,

and then he would blame them if they didn't get.

And here's why that's important.

From Parham to Seymour, the early Pentecostal movements that

we see, Smith, Wigglesworth, and beyond, we'll talk more here in a second, you begin to

see them put the emphasis on people as the blame.

If you don't speak in tongues or you're

less

spiritual, you're not doing it.

I did that as a

young man, I spoke in tongues, I thought it roots

back and begin to actually have to stop speaking in tongues, because early on,

they just

didn't, they

had to, they felt

like they

hadn't recorded as much.

And now it becomes, there's another example over in the UK, this wasn't

just, you begin to see that as well.

And these are the guys getting copied.

Bill Johnson calls them the Holland, and you can go down the list of women

like Catherine, begins to rise, and women's rights

begin to be fought for.

Well, you had leading ladies like Amy Semple McPherson, and they weren't as violent,

some of the men like Wigglesworth,

equally as deceptive in the things they taught.

One of the men between word of mouth, if

you are Pentecostal listening,

I'm not lumping you in, becomes a

key figure as well, leaps out of Pentecostalism

as a guy who taught very, very dangerous things.

He taught circumcised theology, which is that Eve had sex with

Satan.

I know some of you are the idea.

He taught that.

He believed that he was Elijah.

He was an annihilationist.

He.

Taught no hell.

Just out of curiosity, was he a hyper

-Calvinist, and I stress the word hyper, because there were some branches, I think, that are nearly

extinct of hyper -Calvinists who taught the two -seed -in -the -spirit idea

that you were just commenting on.

I haven't found, and maybe it's out there, that he was linked to hyper -Calvinism, but

he was as off the beaten path as you could get, and I

think it would be incredibly misleading for people to call him the hero of the

faith, the way that modern faith healers do.

I've heard my own uncle before.

I've heard guys like Chris

Vallotton, who co -leads the School of Supernatural Ministry with Bill Johnson up at Bethel Reading,

say that we want the spirit of Branham on our young people.

I've heard Bill Johnson claim him as one of the...

When men teach outright heretical doctrines, when they

diminish and demean the beauty of Christ, they are not to be held in high regard.

We can't even tag them with the phrase, even the best

of men are met at best,

right?

That's reserved...

If we

have time before the first break, let me know.

I'd like to go back to the movement.

Is that okay?

In fact, you should do that when we return, because it'd be too close to the break, and I don't want to cut you off

in the middle of a sentence.

Wonderful.

So let's go to that as soon as we pick up, or when we return from the next break, for the

first break, I should say.

If anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N

-Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us, as always, your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please

only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking.

Other than that, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Don't go away, God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages with Kosti Hinn and the roots of the Word of Faith

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Well we are back now with our conversation with Kosti Hinn, nephew of

renowned Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn and executive pastor at Mission Bible

Church of Tustin, California.

We are discussing today the historical roots of the Word of Faith heresy.

And right before the break, Kosti was beginning to do that very thing to get to

that very point where he is discussing the actual origins of that particular

movement in contrast with the rest of Pentecostal or the

Charismatic movement.

Yeah, thanks Chris.

A couple of.

Resources just off the bat if people want to go and fact -check and do some more

reading.

That's great.

But White and the Harvest is a book

you want to get that'll

tell you.

He did some graduate work, did a great job outlining the

Word of Faith.

Favorite and academic book, but a good one, is a more recent publication by Kate Bowler called

Blessed, and that'll give you the historical roots of the prosperity gospel.

Those are books that I look to when I'm learning and researching, and so those are some that you want to add to your

library.

Why I went on that bunny trail,

guys like Smith would act it out

in teachings.

They would identify most,

and a lot of the faith healers, even the prosperity

preachers that would come, and what we'll talk about right now, the Word of Faith.

These men, I know modern -day Pentecostals

don't like that.

I've had conversations, they say, please don't lump us in.

We do not support your uncle.

We don't like him.

We don't even find our roots in him.

Well, that's because they're starting to turn their back on some of those old

teachings, but if we need, look no further.

I'm going to take you now to the lineage

that is

100 ever teach a normal gospel message.

Some of them do, but if you are in the Word of Faith,

Quimby, circa 1802,

1866, eats up the 1800s with this

idea that sin and mental causes.

So, if you want to lump Quimby under a category, just think mind over matter, or

new thought philosophies.

This idea that you can think your way to health.

That sounds like Christian science.

Well, Mary

Bickering.

Yeah, these people I just called by their first name.

My dear friend Mary there, who had it wrong.

Yeah, she's another one.

So, Quimby starts this idea, and Christians are not the only one borrowing

from it.

Like you said, the Christian science movement burst out of it.

Now, the key figure we need to talk about here is E .W. Kenyon.

E .W. Kenyon, born 1867, lives into

1948.

So, he's at the turn of the 1900s.

E .W. Kenyon grabs onto Quimby's new thought

philosophies and begins to merge it into Christian teaching.

So, Kenyon is a guy who takes new thought, turns it

into a theology, and begins to teach that God is in this type of thing.

You know, your beliefs now can impact your level of health and wealth.

If you believe, or speak, or think your way into health and wealth, then you're figuring this

thing out, and you've got what you need.

If you're not, well, you've got a problem.

And so, Kenyon becomes, it's not

like people are writing books, like a bit obscure.

You've got to really, really dig to fix everything that

E .W. Kenyon started.

His name is Kenneth Hagen.

Kenneth Hagen is born in 1917.

He lives until 2003, 2004.

It was 2003, though some historians have listed it as 2004.

I'm not sure why, but he's the biggest player.

He's one of

the first on this type of teaching.

D .R. McConnell is one of the guys who takes his teachings, lines them up next to E .W. Kenyon,

and discovers that what Hagen had done is plagiarized

Kenyon's teaching.

This is when Word of Faith teaching gets really, really dangerous.

They begin teaching that Christ, you know, was basically like our big brother,

essentially.

He came down, lived as just a man.

He was just a man under the anointing of, anointed and

baptized and filled, born again by the Spirit of God.

You can do all the things that Jesus did.

Basically, you're in the image of God.

You need to be right.

If you're sick, why are you sick?

You just haven't tapped into your true identity as a little God.

You are just another version of, and what you think is what you are, and what you

speak is what you are.

And it begins to merge a lot of the New Thought theology with a twisted

hermeneutic on creation, on our identity in Christ, and on

what Christ did as a man who was fully God still.

He was never just fully man.

He was fully man and fully God.

And Hagen starts his ministry, of course, with a dramatic conversion story,

talks about dying and going, and he also talked about

that he had all these extracts.

So he was, of course, he spoke directly for God.

He had divine revelation.

He used to say that God told him, God said.

He would teach that ultimately, you know, you could live a

sinless life the way Jesus was a sinless man.

You can be a sinless man, too, and not in the sense of Christ's righteousness

being imputed to us as believers.

Not that.

Not that God sees us differently because of our mediator, the Lord Jesus,

but that you literally, in the human, that.

Is not true.

Yeah, a lot of that may be from the roots of the Wesleyan holiness movement, because

even John Wesley believed theoretically that a human being on this earth could achieve a sinless.

State.

He did.

And that is another reason why we need to be aware of history.

These guys simply borrowed a menu of ideas, marketed it well.

Nobody had what marketers do now.

If I put out an ad and I make you think that you're less happy,

less fulfilled, and less materially blessed than what you see

in that ad, I need to get that thing.

I need to have that thing.

And when you start promoting a biblical theology that says you can have a sinless life if you,

and then fill in the blank, or God taught, and then fill in the blank, or God told me, fill in the blank,

ultimately you can build up a following of people that are always behind you somehow.

And again, it's

not for anybody, right?

It is, and it should be on some level, if you will,

in quote, ahead of us in that I don't want to follow from behind the pulpit.

Hey, welcome to the service today.

Just so you all know, I'm struggling, you know, with pornography, like many of you men are, but God is

gracious.

I don't want, I want a pastor that is growing unto God's glory and holiness.

So let's make clear, that's why Paul told

Timothy that a new convert, a man who's a new convert should not be placed in the office of

elder, pastor, or overseer.

So there's that.

But these guys did something different.

It wasn't their holiness in a sense that, that it was

that they seemed to have this new revelation,

had never heard before.

And when people heard that, and healing tents filled up, as other men at the

same time, like Oral Roberts, began to use word of the

prosperity gospel.

I was just reading it from the

1940s, need healing, do these

things

to be,

never mind being saved, never mind being sanctified, never God

that you be serving, and using your spiritual gift, or that you be sexually pure, or that you

suffer well.

I mean, could you imagine Oral Roberts writing to the Christians by

Nero for burning Rome, as Peter wrote to them?

Could you imagine Oral Roberts writing to the church?

Could you imagine

that time?

What are we?

We're capitalistic.

We love this idea of gaining, of being better, of being elite.

That's why the prosperity gospel and the word of faith movement have worked better now than any time in history,

because we can literally stand up in front of a crowd and say, look at my life.

That's why my uncle has been able to go over to Nigeria, and down to South America, and into the third world, into India

and other places, and say, God blesses us if you do this, and

millions of people, and I'm not exaggerating, you can check the stats,

millions at services in India, and one of them I was at in 2004, and he's gone plenty of times.

Millions of people will give their last,

and all of this

trace, yes, it

should think on things that are above.

Yeah, we should dwell on whatever is right and true, out of the

church.

Your mind is not

designed to suddenly heal you.

That's not your healing mechanism.

Your mind can't help you escape.

Your mind is to stay focused on the things of the word of God, and the things of God, so that you can

endure.

He started a series even

before we had started the series on Sunday,

Chris, timing for our church to be in that series.

We didn't plan it.

We weren't doing it because Vegas, and again, Texas, and in

that sermon, he said, whatever captures your heart will

control your mind.

He was teaching our people that they need to be passionate for the right thing,

and ease, then when tragedy

hits, your mind has not been captured by the things of

God, and our view of God is what carries us through.

None of that.

You and I both know things, and I'm going through things.

We're not going

to, but I go to God's word.

Justin Peters said just yesterday on our video

program, I don't like having,

but I've learned to consider in my

walk with God.

I think there's something to be said biblically, and the word

of faith, they give people

falsehoods, and that's the history, and so you have E .W. Kenyon, and you've got Kenneth Hagin,

and you've got Oral Roberts, and then what happened is, and I'll read a quote to you,

came along, and actually, Kenneth Hagin Jr.,

the beginning of Copeland,

turned on to the word

of God, it says.

He was in debt, he wanted,

and one of the men there,

bring the money when you can, and so young Kenneth Copeland

memorized those tapes, and another great ministry was launched, end

quote, who plagiarized E .W. Kenyon,

who borrowed an idea from a man who, or a

denomination, or any type of theology, Phineas Quimby, and that

is what has led us to, we could leave it there, and that would be enough to

tell.

People, run, for it is not founded.

AMEN.

One of the things that I was curious about, because of the borrowing from other

religions, and cults, and sects that has been going on in regard to word of

faith leaders, I was just curious, was there any conscious influence

that the Mormons had upon these men, and still have upon them, because they have a very

similar view, and of course, there may be differences among them, but some of the more notable

figures in that movement have a similar view to the person of God the

Father, as having a body of flesh, blood, and bone, just as we have,

and I was curious if that was something that they came up with on their own, through perhaps a

satanic influence, or if it was a conscious borrowing from Mormonism.

Something I haven't found in my research that anybody consciously borrowed.

Have you seen anything like that?

I haven't, and I think if we haven't found anything, here's why I think might be the case.

Word of faith preachers are really smart, and they're really sneaky too.

Much like our adversary Satan does not show up at the foot of our bed with a pitchfork, saying, here I am to

deceive you.

I don't think a word of faith preacher, at least I haven't found one,

outright has given evidence that he's borrowing from Mormonism, because he

knows right away that a large swath of evangelicalism would toss him out as a false teacher.

These guys are more 2 Peter 2, from what I see.

They're secretly introducing destructive heresies.

Now, behind the scenes, yeah, I mean, maybe they're deceivers that are laughing all the way to the bank, saying, here, what can

I grab from other religions that Christians, but

I've yet, and again, I'm younger and I'm learning and growing until I

meet Christ, that on this topic, I haven't found.

Yet evidence that they're consciously….

Yeah, and I was also wondering, I know that Jimmy

Swaggart was an opponent, a fierce opponent of word of faith teaching, but

he also had that bizarre understanding of God, having a body,

God the Father, having a body of flesh, bone and blood, and having

a size and weight and height of a typical human man.

But anyway, we're going to our midway break right now, and I know a number of you are waiting to have your

questions asked and answered.

We'll get to as many of you as possible before the time runs out, but if any of

those of you who would like to get in line behind them with a question of your own, do so now, while you still have the

time, at chrisarnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

And by the way, Kosti, I forwarded you our first question from Joey in

Clifton, New Jersey, since it was rather lengthy, and I thought I'd give you time to look it over during the station break, and you

can answer it when we return.

Awesome.

All right, we'll be right back, God willing, right after these messages, so don't go away.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris.

Arns.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is Kosti

Hinn, nephew of renowned Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn, and he is the

executive pastor of Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California.

Today we are addressing the historical roots of the Word of Faith heresy.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And while we are making publicly this connection between Kosti and his uncle Benny, we want to make

it clear that Kosti has thoroughly and publicly and adamantly renounced

and denounced the theology of Benny Hinn as heretical and

damnable and dangerous and evil, and we are

rejoicing with Kosti in that departure that God enabled him to partake in, this

departure from the Word of Faith movement and into biblical soundness and into the

truth of the real Jesus and the real gospel of the scriptures.

And once again, if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter over which you are asking.

Before we return to the discussion, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual Quaker Town Conference on Reformed

Theology.

And remember, that is not the Reformed Town Conference on Quaker Theology, it's the

Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology, which is being held November 17th through

the 18th.

It's coming up rather quickly, being held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

The theme is, For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a reference to Satan from that

classic Reformation hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.

Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

If you would like to register for this conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events, and

then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology.

Then coming up in November, I'm sorry, in January from the

17th through the 20th, the G3 Conference is returning to Atlanta, Georgia on the theme,

Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.

The 17th of January will exclusively be a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and from the 18th

through the 20th will exclusively be an English -speaking edition of the conference.

And this conference includes a mutual friend of both Kosti and mine,

Justin Peters, who we were discussing earlier of Justin Peters Ministries, who has just

completed a video series with our guest Kosti Hinn.

But not only will Justin Peters be on the roster at the G3 Conference, but Stephen Lawson, Votie

Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B. Charles Jr., Tim Chalies, Josh Bice, James White,

Tom Askle, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and

Martha Peace will all be on that roster with Justin Peters this January

18th through the 20th.

If you would like to register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and

please, if you register for either of those events or if you are just contacting the

organizations running those events and you want to find out more information, please remember to always

tell any organization that is running an event that we advertise on Iron Trip and Zion Radio that you heard about those

events from Chris on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

That means a lot to us.

It will help other advertisers to maintain their sponsorship of this

program.

And this leads me to my most uncomfortable portion of the program,

especially because some of the very people we are discussing, the Word of Faith movement, have ruined

fundraising for the rest of us or have seriously tainted it with an ominous

reputation.

I have been making a public appeal for more donations and more

advertisers for the last several months because the advertisers that have kept Iron Trip and Zion Radio on

the air through their own hard -earned money have urged me to make these public appeals because they don't want this

program to go off the air.

And we are in very real and very serious jeopardy of going off the

air due to the financial crisis we are experiencing.

I thank God that we are receiving a small stream of donations coming in again.

We noticed that they ran dry for a number of weeks, but we are beginning to see a

reverse in that situation.

We thank God for that.

We thank God for you who think so highly of this program that you have donated your

hard -earned money to further ensure that we don't go off the air or at least to

prolong that process so that we can bless you

with the guests and topics that we have been airing on this program going back

to 2005 -2006 when we used to broadcast out of

WNYG and WGBB in New York.

But if you don't want this program to go off the air, please prayerfully consider donating to Iron Trip and Zion

Radio.

And one thing that I try to remember to tell you every day, never ever ever siphon money

out of the giving you are accustomed to to the local church where you are a member.

We never want you to, as it were, take money out of the collection plate of your local church and give it to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Obviously, I don't mean physically and literally, but I mean in essence by siphoning money out of your regular

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And if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, you've got to rectify that situation because

you're living in disobedience to God unless you are genuinely prayerfully and actively

seeking a church that honors God and teaches and proclaims the truths of

his word and gospel.

But please never siphon money out of your giving to your local church and never take food off of your family's

dinner table if you're struggling to make ends meet.

But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to do those both things, to obey those two

commands, because providing for your church and providing for your family are indeed two commands of

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Providing for Iron Trip and Zion Radio is not a command of God.

But if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands,

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Go to IronTripandZionRadio .com.

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And if you want to advertise with us, send in an email to me at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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And then write advertising in the subject line.

And we would love to work out an ad campaign with you that will hopefully be mutually

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It doesn't need to be identical.

It just needs to be compatible.

Then we would love to hear from you, whether it's your business, your corporation, your professional

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Perhaps it's just a special event that you want to promote.

Well, anyway, just as long as it's compatible with what we teach here, then please send us an

email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com so we can help you launch an ad campaign as soon as possible, because we

sorely need the advertising dollars.

Well, we are now back to our discussion with our guest, Kosti Hinn, nephew of

renowned Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn and the executive pastor at Mission Bible Church of

Tustin, California.

We are discussing the historical roots of the Word of Faith heresy.

And before the break, we received an email with a question from Joey in Clifton, New

Jersey.

And his question is, Dear Kosti, I completely agree with your comments on William Branham

and can relate a personal experience.

In the late 1990s, more than 30 years after Branham's death in 1965, I was in the

Philippines on a business trip.

While there, I encountered some of Branham's modern disciples.

I was absolutely shocked to find these Filipino people held to Branham as being the

modern Elijah.

Their faith in him was unshakable no matter what I said.

As I spoke to them at length, it became very clear that they were holding to something that was not the

gospel at all.

It was just a modernized cult focused on signs and wonders.

My heart broke for these people, and I felt my utter powerlessness to reach them.

It is at times like this when we must really trust the sovereignty of God and the power of his

Word.

All I could do at that point was share the gospel and plant the seed of the Word of God.

I let them see that there was a sincere American Christian who completely disagreed with Branham's

claims to be Elijah.

That was about 20 years ago.

I can now only hope that God used that and other subsequent things in their

lives to reach them.

I wonder if you could comment on whether you still see specific enduring influence of Branham.

Today.

Thank you for your ministry.

Well, Joey, great question, brother.

My answer is yes to making a comment on whether I see

us today.

Yes, they're in.

I'm going to bring in a quote from one of the most

modern, Bill Johnson and Chris

Vallotton.

Again, I'm referring to Bethel Church in Redding, California with their supernatural.

Here is just a Bill Johnson to no doubt hundreds

and now obviously thousands and tens of thousands who read his books and watch his sermons of millennials.

These are young people essentially with v -necks and skinny jeans.

I'm one of them.

I'm not making fun of that.

I'm just saying all the young people are hearing this.

Here's what I'm believing for, Johnson says.

I know it's never happened, but I know that it must be for the end.

There must be not just individuals.

I'm thankful we have individuals that are rising up with such and we have people scattered all over the

planet right now that are just making a mess of things in all the right ways,

Johnson continues.

But what I'm believing for is a generation.

A generation that will have a corporate anointing to press into realms

because it's my conviction that as much as God put on a

William Brandon,

on a company of people than he ever would on an individual.

To do that, there must be a corporate.

Continues, we have to deal with issues of obeying the rules of this.

We cannot use the principle to expect to tap into unlimited

resource of the kingdom of God.

I have no clue what Johnson is talking about in Balaton.

Their theology makes very little sense.

They use the word breakthrough, power, kingdom, often corporate anointing.

It's as confusing as you could ever think something could be because it divorces from the scriptures.

But what I can tell you in quoting him on that, it's from a sermon back in 2010,

they're very much looking to really publicly

ask for the mantle of William Brandon.

And by mantle, of course, Elijah and Elisha, you remember the relationship

there, and Elisha asking for a double portion and the mantle being thrown.

That idea has been taken so far, even to where when I was a young man, I was

prophet's mantle would fall on me and I would have a greater.

It's not even eisegesis taking a text.

It's fantasy.

It's made up.

It doesn't even belong in a conversation with the Bible.

So Joe Branham's leg day, not just in the

Philippines, but here in

your radio every day and

being clear.

Oh, so the Jesus culture is connected with Branham.

Jesus culture is Bethel's on

Bethel music, Kim Walker's through the band.

All of them are part of that movement.

They all come out of ready and they look to Wigglesworth, Coleman,

Branham, Roberts, Hagen, my uncle Benny, and others as their

historical lineage of anointed faith workers and mighty men and women of God.

That's the signs and wonders lineage they appeal to.

And I've grown up in that.

Those were our faith.

Branham's influence is still going on today.

Now they'll avoid certain things like certain teachings he had.

They'll differ on various.

Points of theology, but they will not call out.

And it's so tragic to see the popularity of Jesus

culture.

It's very, very disconcerting.

We have Joey, I'm sorry, not Joey.

We have a regular Joe, Joe in Slovenia who says, brother

Chris, please have brother Costi explain what seems to be at the heart of the word of faith movement,

the belief in the force of faith, the word of faithers

genuinely believe that words can be used to manipulate the faith force and thus actually

create what they believe scripture, scripture promises health and wealth.

Do word of faithers actually believe this faith force operates independently of

God's sovereign will and that God himself is subject to it.

Isn't this full -blown idolatry turning our faith and by extension ourselves into

God.

Thank you for being fearless and contending for the faith once delivered to the saints.

That's Joe in Slovenia.

I'm going to answer it, but I don't even have to.

That.

Was like a mini sermon.

That was awesome.

You answered your question, brother.

It operates, they really do believe that they have some, certainly in some way,

shape or form through their theology, certain

confessions, but more specifically, yeah, we growing up even, so Romans 10, nine,

believe in your heart, confess with your mouth, right?

Salvific faith, faith in Jesus to save.

Well, we also marry that to faith as a force.

You did a great job explaining it.

The word of faith movement views faith as a force.

It is not faith in Christ.

It is not that I'm just justified by faith and it's a belief and a

confession and belief for salvation can tap into

any, if I'm justified by faith and I'm saved by grace through faith

and I can proclaim Christ as my Lord and my Savior and literally in my, what I think is

the hand of God that's initiating my salvation, but you know, we often say it, I chose Christ, I turned

to Christ.

Ultimately, His sovereign hand was upon us doing this.

We're puny humans.

We kind of say, I turned to Christ.

So if I can confess Him as Lord and choose Him, in quote, well, then I can choose

my own and I can confess, I

can choose to have, fill in the blank.

Yeah, faith as a, even when Jesus healed.

Take a tour through the Gospels and sometimes He saw faith.

Other times, like John

5, the man didn't even know who Jesus was at Bethesda.

You can't create a formula for God.

You can't turn Christ's healing ministry into a force or any type of formula to get what you want.

He's sovereign in healing and that faith that people had in Him was that He was the

Son of God.

It was faith in who Jesus was, not mere faith in what He could do and using

faith.

Great question, Joe.

You tell me, keep going and great job contending.

I say, you keep going and great job.

Thank you, Joe.

Keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in Slovenia and beyond.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,

I cannot help but wonder if in the infancy of the Pentecostal movement

that there were manifestations of the miraculous that drove the

young and growing movement into such a huge organization.

Were there manifestations of the miraculous, either those that were the result of trickery

or satanically created false miracles?

What was his name, Chris?

Remind me real quick.

That was CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

Hey, CJ, thanks for your question.

I can comment as well.

I wonder the same thing.

If one or two instances or minor instances or

potentially a false sign or wonder creates that type of

not to take my experience and use it to propagate truth.

Truth is truth.

What the Bible says is

if somebody did get healed, and I've never denied that God heals, and Chris, I know you don't as well, God

heals.

And so we saw at times, not from the hand of a faith healer, not even from the

anointed service or whatever, and the music and the atmosphere, but at times we would pray and you're just

praying for friends or people.

I have a baby, was praying that she could and suddenly

did.

Now that didn't mean everybody got a baby, but what faith healers would do in my circles growing up

is if God in a power ride that

story.

And so it's kind of similar, you know, back in early Pentecostal history.

Yeah, maybe some things and maybe some things

happen actually that were false and manufactured in, I

wouldn't discount potentially demonic.

I think that category belongs at least on the board that we have an adversary

and he's seeking to deceive.

So let's not be ignorant to spirit, have a view of cessation.

But yeah, they use one or two things

and it makes a lot of money.

It puts a lot of people in seats and it creates ministry momentum.

If God does one thing, they often will use that story and embellish it for years to come.

So that's, I wonder the same thing.

Thank you, CJ.

And we have a listener in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, BB, who

asks something that relates to something that you just said.

BB says, have you ever seen a miracle performed in your midst, even though you

believe now that the teaching and the teachers were false, but

have you nonetheless experienced or witnessed something that could be explained by no other cause

than an absolute undeniable miracle, such as a blind person

or deaf person or something or somebody with something that

was very seeable by all surrounding that person

that was healed or cured right in the midst of a healing service that you

attended?

I've never seen in the midst.

Of a healing service,

somebody had an ailment or something and then had

a 100 undeniable outworking of miraculous

power in which they no longer did.

Plenty of people stand up out of wheelchairs.

I never would deny that, but they didn't look like the people that Jesus

healed in the New Testament and the apostles healed.

They often were still limping.

And you can watch the footage at a crusade that my uncle or anyone else, they often are limping.

And what the excuse was, was, wow, those legs have been dead for so many years.

They came alive.

That's why they're a little tight.

So that's why they're limping.

They got to use the muscles again.

They haven't been using.

And I get that logic behind that.

And it really explains it well, but here's the problem.

When Jesus healed, it was immediate.

And when men picked up pallets and walked, they didn't limp around.

And when people were jumping and leaping and praising God in the

streets, going crazy, shouting to the, hey, there's the limp,

lame guy that couldn't walk.

He's not because he hasn't used his muscles in years.

He's, he looks like us.

Actually, he's, he's more athletic than me now.

And so that was what we see in scripture.

So I never saw that.

I never saw the direct turnaround, the 180.

You know how when someone gets saved and everyone does a double take,

kind of like what, while

we're progressively sanctified, you see an immediate change, right?

People don't have the taste for the same healing in the same way.

And so I never saw that.

I did experience real stories with real people I know and care

and God healing.

I use the example of a baby, being able to have a baby, because we have friends who,

uh, the woman couldn't have a baby.

And, uh, that actually in the same marriage, the same city, but I have no

issue.

I could call him right now and have him on the program.

He had cancer, Hodgkin's lymphoma cancer, and they couldn't have children.

I can tell you today, they, they monitor his health, but he doesn't have cancer.

And they have a little boy, they call him Eli.

So, um, I know people who have experienced the power of prayer and God's healing hand.

So even as a cessation, that people don't wield these gifts, or at least I don't believe they

wield these gifts every day, all day like the apostles.

Uh, but it's ludicrous to say that God doesn't heal and that he's not a God of the supernatural.

Um, so that's kind of a big picture on that.

I know it's a longer answer,.

But yeah.

Amen.

And God's elect are scattered even among these heretical

churches.

There are sincere people that have been deceived.

And I'm not saying that that's an excuse, uh, to, uh, allow yourself perpetually to

be deceived because you're not a Berean or you're not, uh, uh, Berean enough,

uh, to searching the scriptures to prove everything that is being taught is true.

But, uh, at the same time, there are people, sincere people, people who perhaps are even

new believers, or for some reason, uh, are still connected after many years to

these churches, but are truly children of God, born again, individual.

So obviously there's no reason why God is not going to ever answer their prayer just because they might

happen to be at the time temporarily, uh, trapped in some false religion.

Well, obviously they are Christians themselves, but they are, uh, uh, they

have been deceived into remaining into in some kind of a false religion that professes to be Christian.

And we are going to our final break right now.

And if anybody would like to join us, uh, we are running out of time rapidly.

So send in your email now, if you intend to have Kosti answer it on the air, our email address

is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with Kosti Hinn.

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Uh, we are now back, uh, with our guest, Kosti Hinn, and we are

discussing the historical roots of the Word of Faith heresy.

Uh, before we, uh, go to any more of our listener questions, Kosti, uh, if you could,

uh, further update us on modern day, uh, contemporary movements that

have been heavily influenced by some of these heretical figures from the past, these very dangerous,

uh, and apostate figures from the past.

Absolutely.

The aforementioned, uh, Bethel Church in Reading, Bill Johnson, Chris

Vallotton and the School of Supernatural Ministry.

Another one that people may not associate with Bethel or even with the old time heresies

is Todd White and latest and greatest modern faith healer.

Instead of requiring services with music and, uh, he goes out on the

streets and puts on a real good show.

Um, he's starting a new multi -million dollar,

he's a member of Gateway.

When I was at Dallas Baptist, actually part of my conversion, uh,

but Gateway Church

leadership leader is Kerry Jobe.

And so you've just got a lot of ties through these modern, uh,

another one, anywhere that you see a signs and

wonders, or it's going to be tied to the merger

of early Pentecostalism, faith healing movement, word of faith theology, somewhere in

there, even if it's behind the theology, uh, someone's getting rich off this stuff.

And you've got charismatic renewal theology, third wave and modern day apostles.

The new apostolic reformation is another one.

Uh, if you see leaders like involved with that or claiming to be apostles, that's all tied

to some level of word of faith theology.

And my, my view is this,

if, and he's been,

he's going to change his game here, there, and everywhere.

In general, his strategy is always the same.

He's operating for received people.

So old time heresies, just get new styles.

They get new names.

They get new the deity of Christ and diminishing

and quote you from page 29 of Bill Johnson's

book, when heaven invades earth, he says that Jesus did not do his miracles,

but as a man in right relationship with God, he actually, he did not do his

miracles.

Uh, he did it.

He didn't, he didn't do his miracles as a man or sorry.

He did his miracles as a,

and the reason for that, and that's the teaching.

It is teaching that Christ came fully God, but

people dismiss their music.

Don't mess with Jesus culture.

Don't mess with my favorite bands on the radio.

It's kind of the way that people view it because we get emotionally tied to music and we love song,

but that's one of the bunch of evangelicalism

dangerous.

This our greatest threat is not from outside.

It is from within.

That's a list.

There's definitely more you can.

Find.

If you do research, we have a RJ

and white Plains, New York, who says, I understand that

many decades ago, the assembly of God excommunicated the

oneness Pentecostals, and there seems to have been at that

time and for many years following a very serious view of the

Trinity and protecting that doctrine as being essential in the faith.

But it seems that over the years that this teaching of the Trinity has been

reduced to a much lower rung of importance where Trinitarian Pentecostals and

Charismatics are embracing oneness Pentecostals as their brothers with

little consequence in regard to their difference.

Can you trace the roots of this acceptance of anti -Trinitarian

theology and how serious do you believe it is?

And I think that some of the acceptance, uh, more easy to find

is in modern times.

Trinity is, if

you start to mess with the Trinity, you have entered into her.

What I think modern times shows is men like TD Jakes while

living a little bit in the middle and playing games

like Lifeway bestsellers and PBN, and then appearing at conferences with sound teachers.

A guy like TD Jakes is a perfect example of somebody who lives in the mushy middle.

That's what we call it a lot when we talk even here at Mission Bible.

We call it the mushy middle.

It's the mushy middle.

You can live in that area of what seems to be orthodoxy, but people can't tell what you are.

And so yeah, you're right.

A lot of people have accepted this oneness theology.

It is heretical.

I'm not sure historically, but

in modern times, make money

good at getting hits on your website.

If you're a Lifeway bestseller and you differ on something like that,

they tend to look at it as just

a minor issue.

You're right.

Do you know anything about any change in the view of the Trinity

with the members of Phillips, Craig, and Dean?

They, years ago, were very open about their oneness

Pentecostalism, but I understand that they were invited to perform at some kind of a Southern Baptist

event and people were making the claim that they had changed.

Do you know anything about whether they truly had any repentance

in regard to their heretical view and any change for a biblically orthodox and historically Christian

understanding of the Trinity?

I'm not sure about what happened with Phillips, Craig, and Dean in regards to the repentance issue, but I did hear

about, with the SBC in that situation, what I

would say on that as well.

You know, repenting from it is, unless something becomes really

obvious and people lose friends and they lose money and they lose

records, I tend to be a little bit

skeptical.

Now, not everybody has to go out like I did publicly and make some big deal about everything.

I'm a pastor, so I need to.

I think if it's a band, they need to as well because they're a public figure.

And members of that band are pastors, at least two of them, maybe all three.

So yeah, then you're in that territory of owing people a clear explanation, and

here's guys and

guys

responding to the criticism.

We just saw that, didn't we, this week when Carl Lentz was on The View and he flat out does not

answer the question, is abortion, because

he doesn't want to offend people.

Then after a couple days of Twitter, Facebook, and the evangelical world,

he releases a statement.

I believe it's sin on

the T.

I mean, I'm not

saying Phillips, Craig, and Dean are false teachers.

I'm just saying that money can cause people

to say sorry, and I'm not paying them.

Did they repent?

I'm paying evangelicalism back

while still keeping that.

I've been accused of it, and I laugh at

that.

I'm not getting big checks.

I'm standing for Christ.

And if you take, I got the Word of God,

I'm saved, and who cares about book sales?

If you sell some books and you help some people, the fidelity to Christ and the gospel,.

I would say that.

Amen.

And obviously, you do believe that if they have remained in their oneness

Pentecostal teaching, that they are false teachers, speaking of Phillips, Craig, and Dean.

Yep, they're outside of the lines of orthodoxy and what the scriptures teach.

So they would fall in that category.

And you would think that if T .D. Jakes and Phillips, Craig, and Dean, and anybody else who had

genuinely renounced something as heretical as

anti -Trinitarian theology, you would think that a hallmark of their current

existence would be to be shouting from the rooftops the truths of Trinitarianism.

It wouldn't be something that was shuffled amongst other issues,

and it wouldn't be a quiet transformation.

It would be something that would be very central and something that we'd be very

vociferous about, wouldn't you.

Think?

I would, and I would say Zacchaeus was an example of that, and again, I'm not putting myself on a pedestal.

I'm not a model for, you know, anything.

I'm just serving the Lord.

I will say this, though.

Five years that I was doing ministry, I talked to my wife and I said,

I want to prep you because I'm done with being silent.

I want to be one of those pastors that stands up for truth.

I don't want to be one of those guys that hides in a corner, takes my paycheck, and keeps everybody happy.

I want to stand for truth no matter what the cost.

Are you with me?

And my wife prayed through it.

We talked about the consequences, and we decided together as a team in marriage that

we didn't want to be one of those people, one of those couples in ministry that lives in the mushy

middle.

And so, yeah, I think when you walk away from something, you need to get on the rooftops if you can.

You need to send an email to Chris Arnzen.

You need to send an email to Justin Peters.

You need to get on the horn and ask people if they'll let you come and tell the story, if they'll let you come and

encourage the saints, if they'll let you come and say, hey, I'm not one of those guys.

I'm different.

I'm part of your family.

You're my brother and sister in Christ.

Can I be in the game?

Can I fight the good fight with you?

And that's what we decided to do.

I asked, and if all you guys would have said, go back into hiding and get your doctorate, then you can come out

and talk, I would have said, okay.

I would submit.

You guys were gracious.

You tested me.

You asked me questions.

I proved to be saved and bearing fruit.

Your guys is live and in ministry today.

But yeah, there's none of this living in the shadows and hiding from reality.

If you got saved and you were on a big platform teaching something false, you belong

back on that platform teaching something.

Peace in one day, and I

want to be faithful with mine.

And people ask, well, are you trading on your last name?

Are you trading on your uncle's fame?

I'm not trading on anything.

I'm simply saying, I got a

last name,

Jake's, all of

it.

Amen.

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County,.

Long Island, New York, who asks, I don't know if you already addressed this, but

where would you put Joel Osteen into the mix of modern day heresies?

He seems to be a lot different in his approach than his father, still

heretical, but different.

He seems more reminiscent of Norman Vincent Peale and Robert Shuler than of your

uncle.

What are your thoughts on Joel Osteen?

Good example of the mushy middle of evangelicalism.

He cannot be pinned, that's his goal, as anything that you've ever seen.

You're right.

He's not as weird as my uncle.

You're right.

He doesn't go into the faith -healing realms of his father, and

B .R. McConnell quotes this, his dad held Kenyon

in very high regard.

That is the history.

John Osteen, his father, who was really a

pride to Kenneth Hagin, and he was part of the whole positive confessions theology.

So here's what Joel Osteen has done.

He's taken the most attractive, and what everybody else did, and he's

rebranded it and put it in front of America.

And now he's the one laughing seat of

Christ.

He was in that same camp.

He's just learned to brand himself really well to attract a lot of people to him.

That's why I call it the mushy middle.

People can't pin you.

He can go on The View, Larry King, and then he can take the pulpit in America, and millions of people will like him.

I talk to people every week.

They say, yeah, Joel Osteen's my pastor.

Oh, I like that Osteen guy.

You know, your uncle's a real crook.

Osteen's the one that I like to listen to.

And I think people just aren't discerning.

They don't realize that Osteen was a real smart young man.

He saw all the critical of

the positive confession theology, but without all the bad press of the crazy faith healers, and he

filled the stadium every week.

You've got to keep him in the same category.

He just does different.

So you think that Joel Osteen, or perhaps you know in some way that

I'm not familiar with due to your own background,

you have surmised at the very least that Joel Osteen has consciously created

this identity in theology by picking and eliminating

certain things to become a more palatable televangelist

to the masses, perhaps eliminating things that might be

scarier to the average person that may view faith healers on a

lunatic fringe, and may be borrowing things from the self -help movement

that seems to be more universally popular.

You think this is a conscious thing or do you think he's just a deceived person himself who has bought into this stuff and has

become very gifted at pushing it?

I'm speaking from conversations that I've had.

With my father and my uncle growing up.

I was a big Joel Osteen fan.

I wanted to be him.

He was so cool, he was so smooth, and he was not weird, okay?

To me, remember, a charismatic kid.

With Uncle Benny, I wanted to be Joel.

This guy, he does all the good stuff, but he doesn't do it.

So I remember sitting one time with my dad and my uncle, and they literally said this.

It was my dad that started the conversation, because we've been around the circle with John Osteen before Joel.

John was not foreign to my father or my uncle or any of that circle, and so I remember my dad

saying, wow, he's so different than his

dad, and I remember my dad and my uncle and I having this conversation that Joel was brilliant.

He branded a TV ministry, he knew how to create good marketing, he still knew how

to be what we would call, and again, it was back then, we thought, wow, he's so faithful to the Word, and he's still

very much, but he's really a teacher to modern people

who maybe aren't ready for the healing ministry yet.

And we viewed him that way.

He was a hero, because he took the, but he moved away from

the oddity of the faith -healer stigma.

So that is where I surmise those things, is from conversations with my uncle and my father

when John Osteen is brought up, and when they are talking about a very young Joel who's

learning and crafting how he wants to be in ministry, but

behind the curtains, these are the conversations that we have

when we're looking at guys that we hold in high regard back then.

This is a question that came up the last time you were on.

We have John in Bangor, Maine, who says, do you believe that your uncle

is merely a duped individual like many of his followers, or is he knowingly

deceiving people?

Is he an out -and -out charlatan and fake, and is he very.

Conscious of those facts?

Two things on that.

2 Timothy 3 .13, I think that he is an evildoer and an imposter who has gone from

bad to worse, and he is deceiving and being deceived.

I strongly believe, based on evidence and being a part of a ministry in his life for decades

growing up, that he really thinks he's anointed.

He really thinks he's got it.

I also, from decades of growing up with evidence, have seen him knowingly deceive and know

that there's things he should not have done.

But like the end of 2 Peter chapter 2, at

the urging of family members, my late grandmother, and many others, Uncle Benny has

continued to be like a dog who returns to his vomit.

That's what Peter said, not me.

So he fits the paradigm.

That's why I pray for repentance.

I believe that he'll repent.

I have to.

I love hopes, bears, and believes, endures all things.

I'm every day saying, Lord, please save Uncle Benny.

And yet I'm well aware of, and my uncle continues to fit that description of a

false teacher who knows what he's doing and is also.

Being used by darkness to outwork.

Is there any way that you could provide any example of how you know he knowingly is deceiving or has

deceived people?

Yeah, when he gets caught by.

You guys back then, when he taught nine persons of the Trinity, when he falsely

promised, family members have even said, Benny, you

know, that service, no one got healed.

You can't say that anymore.

You can't say this.

You can't say that.

And he would say, oh, well, God is God.

I'm not God.

You know, we're just fallible men operating as best as we can, but I'm not in charge of God

changing his mind when he said that God was going to burn the homosexual community in America with fire.

He just changes the game.

And so in those moments, you're literally watching a man say, well, and suddenly change his

mind based on what?

The Bible?

No.

Based on getting caught saying something false and having to go back and make excuses for it.

And so time and time again, he's done that.

Love him.

I want him to change.

I beg the Lord to say that we still have to stand.

Up for truth.

Amen.

And I know that your website is missionbible .org,

missionbible .org.

Your friend, Justin Peters' website is justinpeters .org, justinpeters .org.

And I know that he has recordings of you giving your testimony and other things.

Any other contact information you care to.

Give?

Yeah, we're actually releasing a book in February called Defining Deception.

My co -author and I, it's our teaching pastor, Tony Wood.

We're releasing a book, and it is going to be on the history of all of this.

It's also going to deal with modern movements like Bethel, Todd White, and deal with it in a fair and clear

way.

But the book is called Defining Deception.

You can go to definingdeception .info for all the information, and we'll keep doing

our best to help people.

Use discernment.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner.

Thank you so much for joining us today on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.