November 7, 2017 Show with Costi Hinn on “The Historical Roots of the Word of Faith History”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this seventh day of November 2017, a very snowy

November 7th here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, proving once again that God does whatever he wants to do.

There was no snow forecasted on the five -day weather forecast for Carlisle, and it is really snowing very heavily out there today.

I don't know if it's going to accumulate, but it is indeed snowing. But that's not why we're here today.

We are here to discuss something very important, and I'm very excited to have as a returning guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Kosti Hinn.

He is the nephew of renowned Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn, and he's the executive pastor at Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California.

Today we are going to be discussing the historical roots of the Word of Faith heresy, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Kosti Hinn.

Thanks, Chris. Good to be here, brother. It's great to have you back, brother. I really thoroughly enjoyed our first interview where you gave your testimony of how the

Lord drew you out of the Word of Faith movement and saved your soul and drew you into the doctrines of sovereign grace and even into cessationism in regard to your pneumatology, and it is such a joy to have you back.

If you could, let our listeners know once again, especially for those of our listeners who have not heard you either on my program or in any of Justin Peters' interviews with you, tell us something about Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California.

Well, Mission Bible Church is, first and foremost, a Bible church. So we preach the

Word, and I'm proud of that and thankful for it, and by the grace of God, our congregation continues to demand biblical preaching of its pastors, and so I'm really grateful for that.

Our teaching pastor is Anthony Wood, and he's a great brother, a great friend, one of my closest friends, but even more than that, he's a really faithful teacher, and so we've asked him to continue to fill that pulpit each week and do a great job, and he does.

He's very gifted for that, and we have a plurality of elders that oversee the church, and we're all together as one voice and also fulfilling our various functions within the body based on our giftedness and our call.

So, great leadership, thankful to be a part of it, and we're a church that's really focused on sound doctrine, so in Orange County, what we've seen is a continual growth as people come asking for biblical preaching, wanting a biblical community, and a place to grow where they don't have to worry about the wavering winds of culture changing what we're preaching from the

Word of God. So, thankful to be a part of that. It's a privilege to be in ministry, more of a privilege even than that is being saved.

I'm thankful for God's grace in that after growing up in the prosperity gospel and, of course, in the in -family, so just thankful to be part of your family now,

Chris, and getting to know you and, of course, God's family. So, yeah. Amen. Praise God for that.

It's interesting, something that you just said. I just recently got involved in an online debate with a number of feminists who were angry that I did not invite women pastors to a recent

Iron Sharpens Iron radio pastor's luncheon that I had. It was exclusively for men in ministry, and a woman in the pastorate in the

Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which is the most liberal wing of Lutheranism.

In fact, the Missouri Synod Lutherans and other Lutherans wouldn't even really consider the

ELCA a Lutheran denomination at all, and I would agree with them. But, anyway, there was this debate that erupted on Facebook over the fact that I did not invite women, and there were some angry women, and one of the women said that she looks forward to a day when society will enlighten the church in a far greater way as to the equality of men and women in the church.

Now, of course, those of us who are complementarian believe that men and women are equal in the sight of God, and they are equal in their value and worth.

It is just that God has assigned different roles to us. But it is interesting that this woman was counting on society to teach the church.

Instead of the church being a light to the world, the world is supposed to be a light to us, according to this woman.

Isn't that frightening? Absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, we need look no further than the

Word of God for our instruction and for the way to structure a church.

I mean, at the end of the day, you know, wise men have said, you don't die on the hill of ecclesiology, you know, but at the same time, it's important.

It's really important for churches, I think, to ultimately look at this as an authority issue with Scripture.

So yeah, having a pastor as a woman is a lot different than music style, corporate color, you know, whether or not your order of service is the same as the church down the street, that's your ecclesiological issues.

But if you look at the Bible as authoritative and sufficient and God's Word, then you really have to ask big questions.

If you're just going to take Paul's words and splice them up, call it cultural, toss it out the window and put a woman in the pulpit, that's just, you really want to ask big questions and do your work.

And culture doesn't tell the church the way it's going to be, the Bible does, and we follow

God's Word. Amen. And of course, I do love my dear sisters in Christ who are genuinely born -again believers, who

I believe are mistaken by taking upon themselves the role of pastors, but there are many out there who are seeking to honor and obey

God, they're just misled and sadly and seriously mistaken in that area. But that is not our topic today.

In fact, I want to let our listeners know that those of you who are very curious about Kosti Hinn's testimony of abandoning the

Word of Faith heresy, you can go to ironsharpensironradio .com after this interview is over, ironsharpensironradio .com,

and go into the archive, all you have to do is type in H -I -N -N and that last interview that we had with Kosti will come up, and you can also hear a testimony of Kosti Hinn at Justin Peters' website.

Justin Peters, who is a remarkable brother in Christ, who actually wrote his doctoral dissertation on Kosti's Uncle Benny, which

I thought was fascinating, and Justin and Kosti have become very good friends.

Justin Peters, one of the primary missions that he has in life is to expose the dangers and the heresies of the

Word of Faith movement. He has had a disability, a very serious disability since childhood, and he has a very heartfelt passion to expose those who are giving false hope to those with disabilities by offering them healing if they have a strong enough faith or a large enough bank account.

And it is so good to see that Justin and Kosti have become such good friends. But the website of Justin Peters is justinpeters .org,

justinpeters .org. And tell us, Kosti, about this series that you are involved in with Justin Peters right now.

Kosti Hinn We just, yeah, we completed a series of videos just yesterday, and they're going to be going through more or less beyond the testimony.

And so, you know, again, you can go to those resources. Again, I shared it with you as well,

Chris, so listeners can hear that. But our series together is dealing with more of the theological issues, the historical issues, even maybe some of the stuff we'll talk about today on the program.

But we discussed some of the modern issues that we're facing, you know, well beyond my uncle, looking at Bethel, church,

Jesus culture, Bill Johnson, some of the latest movements. I'm a millennial, so me, like a lot of young people, would consider old guys like Kenneth Copeland kind of old news.

Now, we still need to discuss him, and I think we will today as part of the historical lineage of the Word of Faith movement.

But Justin and I dealt with a lot of these modern movements, because people have big questions.

You know, why is or is even Bill Johnson's teaching heretical?

Is he a heretic? Is that even a proper word? When do you use that word? We dealt with that, as well as talking about sovereignty and suffering, big, big doctrinal questions.

And with everything going on today in our culture and shootings and just the turmoil that people are in, we essentially, we're asking big questions.

You know, where is God in all of it? Is there a model biblically for suffering? What do we do in that?

And what Word of Faith and Prosperity Theology teaches is that you're the problem if you're sick, your faith is the issue if you're not experiencing breakthrough, end quote, and we need to go to the

Bible on those issues. And so Justin and I had a great time, because he has cerebral palsy, he makes the perfect case study for a man who is faithful to God's Word and not experiencing what the faith healers say you should be.

Johnny Erickson Tata is another one, and I dare somebody to look at Johnny Erickson Tata and tell her her problem is faith.

That's why she's still a quadriplegic. I dare somebody to look at Justin Peters and say, your problem is faith,

Justin. Or anybody else, for that matter, who's suffering or has ailments or emotional distress, anything like that, it's not a faith issue.

We need to look at the Bible and the model God gives us to suffer well, to be faithful, and to trust Him, and it is sanctifying us unto

His glory. So we dealt with a lot of things well beyond the usual things we talk about, and I'm thankful.

So I think it's about seven segments, and we're going to put those up on YouTube for free, so everybody can watch them and get them.

And then also, he's going to package them into a DVD, so if people want to purchase it in a packaged form, they can, but it's not just to make money and put product out there to be free on YouTube.

And we have another one about cessation, what it is and what it isn't, because I think that term, and you probably agree,

Chris, it's a real bad rap, because it's in the negative, and people just don't understand.

Biblically thinking cessationists believe in healing, believe that God does the miraculous, believe in a supernatural

God, and are not quenching the Spirit. It's not that we don't believe in the Holy Spirit, and so we answer a lot of those questions, too, based on the accusations often that a cessationist is putting the

Holy Spirit in a box and does not believe in His work. That is error, and so yeah, we had some fun.

Well, praise God for that, and once again, the website for Justin Peters is justinpeters .org.

I am praising God that He has raised up both you and Justin Peters to fill a void that Hank Hanegraaff left.

I don't mean to be mean -spirited, and I hope nobody assesses my words as being mean -spirited, but it is a tragedy,

I think, that Hank has entered into what appears to be apostasy. He's become an

Eastern Orthodox, dare I say, well,

I will not say an Eastern Orthodox Christian, but he has become Eastern Orthodox, and that's a serious departure from the gospel he once declared, and therefore,

I no longer view him as a trustworthy advocate of the Bible.

I do not any longer view him as a Bible -answered man, and he championed the exposing of people like your uncle and many other

Word of Faith advocates, and it is sad to see what has happened to him theologically, but please pray for Hank Hanegraaff, because not only is he in very dangerous waters spiritually and theologically, he is also dealing with cancer, so we would love to see him be restored both spiritually and physically through this trial that he's going through, and I don't mean to undermine the seriousness of his physical situation, nor do

I want anyone to just totally abandon him, and I would love to see all of you pray for Hank Hanegraaff's restoration.

Absolutely. But today we are, as I already announced, we're going to be talking about the historical roots of the

Word of Faith heresy, and by the way, if anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Well, tell us about the roots of the Word of Faith movement as far back as you can trace them.

In fact, perhaps you should start with the roots of Pentecostalism, at least in summary form.

Yeah, in summary form, terms are really important. So you have the

Holiness Movement, and a lot of historians and people have written books on this, and they're easy to access, so I encourage people to research and do their own work as well.

But if you look at the term Pentecostal, you're dealing with early, early 1900s, birthing out of, of course, the 1800s and the

Holiness Movement, in which you see characters like Parham come to fruition, you know, around 1906, and that's where ultimately

Pentecostals will usually trace their roots back. Now, they lump Wesley in, and there's a whole lot of rabbit trails you can go down, but for starters, almost a

Pentecostal history for the simpleton, which is me. I mean, in layman's terms, if you go to the early 1900s and study

Charles Parham's life, you begin to see where some of today's modern practices become very obvious.

Things like speaking in tongues and actually teaching that tongues is evidence of the baptism or the filling, and they interchange the terms, they can get some confusing rhetoric going the way that they intermix the terms.

But ultimately, tongues is evidence of the Holy Spirit in any way, shape, or form. You look at Charles Parham.

Now, I'm not an expert as much as I'd like to be, and I aspire to be, on early, early

Church history, but you do have instances, even in the very first couple of centuries of the

Church, where, you know, Montanism explodes, and there's ecstatic utterances and issues with tongues, and again,

I encourage people to go and look at why there were councils in the early Church. The reason they had councils is not so a lot of theological guys could sit around and feel smart.

It's because they were dealing with similar issues to what we're dealing with today. The diminishing of Christ's deity, when you look at Arius and some of the teachings, and we'll get into that more today,

Chris, on what people are doing in Gnosticism and some of the things going on at Bethel, diminishing the deity of Christ, that goes back.

So councils play a key role, and what we look at when we see the birth of early

Pentecostalism is a departure from authority and from council.

Parham broke off from the Methodists. He said no to authority. And what would be the approximate date of that?

Charles Parham is your guy that's about 1906, is where, that's where you're looking at, like, the

Azusa Street Revival and Seymour birthing out of Parham's ministry. But Parham specifically, he's born around late 1800s, 1873 or so, and he lives until 1929.

So you've got for him early, early 1900s, late 1800s, a lot of weird experiences.

He's called the Father of the Apostolic Faith for a reason, because a lot of the New Apostolic Reformation practices

Parham enjoyed. He taught a lot of false doctrines about salvation, about tongues as evidence of that salvation.

And then also, he had ties to things that I think people today would find really, really egregious ties to the

KKK. Wow. Ironically, ironically, William Seymour, who was one of his students, breaks off, and then you all know, and a lot of people know, that's what we've been referring to, about 1906, in that range, you've got the

Azusa Street Revival begin to explode there in the spring of 1906.

And ironically, Seymour is a African -American man. Parham is, for all intents and purposes, at least associated with and a supporter of racism, and he ends up actually getting really upset when

Seymour has an explosion in Azusa, and actually says all the work there and going on is of the devil.

They have a split, and early Pentecostalism begins to merge, and here's what

I mean by that. You get the merger of a lot of ideas, and this is what's dangerous, and what

I have found to be true with the New Apostolic Reformation. I'll keep tying it back to what's going on today.

What I've seen, and as a younger man watching all this unfold and being even involved in it, a lot of what we'll talk about today gets confusing, because so -and -so borrowed something from so -and -so, and then you'll see, like with Kenneth Hagin, he plagiarized

E .W. Kenyon and so -and -so and so -and -so, and then, you know, my Uncle Benny teaches all of this, and he doesn't really know what he is, but then

Osteen will preach something that's similar, but then he doesn't wave his jacket and knock people over, right?

And so everyone begins to grab onto the things that they view as the work of the

Spirit. There's a divorce from Scripture. Now, you can have divine revelation.

Now, you know, you can speak in tongues, and they would claim that it was Chinese or something else, but it wasn't, and so William Seymour begins that explosion and that revival, and it continues, and then, you know,

I always like to look at what's going on around the big picture, around the whole world, and if you look at what was happening over in the

UK around that same time, a guy like Smith Wigglesworth is a key figure that you want to know about.

If you're familiar with Todd Bentley, who today is a very violent evangelist, he brags about punching and kicking people to heal them.

Smith Wigglesworth is where he got that from. He used to say that it was the devil in people that he was beating.

People would say, why are you hitting and slapping and punching people who are sick?

And I'll actually quote him. He was defending himself one time for beating on people, and he said, there are some times when you pray for the sick and you're apparently rough, apparently, but you're not dealing with a person.

You're dealing with the satanic forces that are binding that person. Your heart is full of love and compassion to all, but you are moved to a holy anger as you see the place the devil has taken position in the body of the sick one, and you deal with his position with a real forcefulness.

That is a direct quote of Smith Wigglesworth defending how,

I call it, if you can't heal them, beat them. He would literally beat on people, and then he would blame them if they didn't get healed.

And here's why that's important. From Parham to Seymour, the early

Pentecostal movements to the birth of the faith healing movements that we see, Smith Wigglesworth and beyond, we'll talk more here in a second, you begin to see them put the emphasis on people as the blame.

If you don't speak in tongues, what are you? You're a second -class citizen, you are less saved, or you're less spirit -filled, or you're having a lesser powerful impact as a

Christian, because you're not doing something, you're able to have something. And so you get innocent people who are just trying to fit in, speak in tongues.

I did that as a young man, I spoke in tongues, I thought it's what I had to do. And a lot of Pentecostals trace the roots back and begin to actually,

I've met plenty of them, who actually begin to stop speaking in tongues, because early on they just didn't.

It was peer pressure, they felt like they had to, they felt like they weren't filled with the Spirit, they were told they weren't filled with the

Spirit. And so early on in Pentecostal history, it's not a happy day.

I mean, there's a lot of claims, but it's a time where people are beginning to be spiritually abused in ways that, you know, history hasn't recorded as much, and now it becomes prevalent.

And so Wigglesworth is another example over in the UK, this wasn't just American thing, you begin to see that as well.

And these are the guys getting copied. Bill Johnson calls them the Hall of Generals, they're a part of it.

And you can go down the list of women like Katherine Coleman, as, you know, feminism kind of begins to rise, and women's rights begin to be fought for.

Well, you had leading ladies like Amy Semple McPherson, and they weren't as violent and as vile at times as some of the men like Wigglesworth, but they were equally as deceptive in the things they taught.

One of the men that I want to jump to really quick, and then I'm going to backtrack a little bit and explain the difference between Word of Faith and Pentecostal, because we want to be really careful.

If you are Pentecostal listening, I'm not lumping you in with the Word of Faith movement, but William Branham becomes a key figure as well in the faith -healing movement that leaps out of Pentecostalism as a guy who taught very, very dangerous things.

He taught serpent -seed theology, which is that Eve had sex with Satan.

I know some of you are probably appalled at the idea. He taught that.

He believed that he was Elijah. He was an annihilationist. He taught no hell, that it was just over.

I know it's laughable. Just out of curiosity, was he a hyper -Calvinist, and I stress the word hyper because there were some branches,

I think, that are nearly extinct of hyper -Calvinists who taught the two -seed and the spirit idea that you were just commenting on.

I'm not sure. I haven't found, and maybe it's out there, that he was linked to hyper -Calvinism, but he was as off the beaten path as you could get, and I think it would be incredibly misleading for people to call him the hero of the faith the way that modern faith healers do.

I've heard my own uncle before say, you know, well, Branham, he was a little off. He thought he was Elijah, but man, what power.

I've heard guys like Chris Vallotton, who co -leads the School of Supernatural Ministry with Bill Johnson up at Bethel Reading, say that we want the spirit of Branham on our young people.

I've heard that. When men teach outright heretical doctrines, when they diminish and demean the beauty of Christ, they are not to be held in high regard.

We can't even tag them with the phrase, even the best of men are meant at best, right?

That's reserved for, you know, pastors who fall. They make a mistake. They fall into sin, or they get some things wrong, right?

That's reserved for men who don't get it all right. But outright heresy is a completely different topic, and Chris, if we have time before the first break, let me know.

I'd like to go back to the roots of the Word of Faith movement. Is that okay? In fact, you should do that when we return, because it would be too close to the break, and I don't want to cut you off in the middle of a sentence.

Wonderful. So let's go to that as soon as we pick up, or when we return from the next break, for the first break,

I should say. If anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us, as always, your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and please only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking.

Other than that, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. Don't go away, God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages with Kosti Hinn and the roots of the

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Well we are back now with our conversation with Kosti Hinn, nephew of renowned

Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn and executive pastor at Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California.

We are discussing today the historical roots of the Word of Faith heresy, and right before the break,

Kosti was beginning to do that very thing, to get to that very point where he is discussing the actual origins of that particular movement in contrast with the rest of Pentecostal or the

Charismatic movement. Yeah, thanks Chris. A couple of resources, just off the bat, if people want to go and fact check and do some more research of their own,

I thought I'd list those now, just so that's clear, but James R. Goss, Jr.

Fields White and the Harvest is a book you want to get that'll tell you a lot more about the early roots of Pentecostalism and others, and then

D .R. McConnell, something a lot of people maybe know about already, but his book is called A Different Gospel.

He did some graduate work at Oral Roberts University, ironically, did a great job outlining the

Word of Faith movement, and then a personal favorite, an academic book, but a good one, is a more recent publication by Kate Bowler called

Blessed, and that'll give you the historical roots of the prosperity gospel. Those are books that I look to when I'm learning and researching, and so those are some that you want to add to your library if you don't have them already.

Well Chris, why I went on that bunny trail all through Pentecostalism and faith -healing movements, guys like Smith Wigglesworth and Branham and others, is because all of them, in some way, shape, or form, taught, acted out, and platformed

Pentecostal manifestations and Pentecostal teachings, things that are found in the roots of Pentecostalism.

They would identify most, if you had to pick a camp, with Pentecostalism in its earliest form, and a lot of the faith healers, even the prosperity preachers that would come in, what we'll talk about right now, the word of faith preachers and teachers, these men and women are closely associated with Pentecostalism.

Now, I know modern -day Pentecostals don't like that. I've had conversations with friends of the Assemblies of God denomination that say, please don't lump us in, we do not support your uncle, we don't like him, we don't even find our roots in the early heresies that some of these men taught.

Well, that's because they're starting to turn their back on some of those old teachings, but if we're looking at it from a historical perspective, we need look no further than that turn -of -the -century moment.

I'm going to take you now to the lineage that parallels Pentecostalism, which is the word of faith movement.

It is 100 % heretical. I'm not saying that they don't ever teach a normal Gospel message, some of them do, but if you are in the word of faith movement, you need to be aware and be asking big questions.

It was Phineas Quimby, who was born circa 1802, lived all the way until 1866, eats up the 1800s with this idea that sickness is rooted in mental causes.

So, if you want to lump Quimby under a category, just think mind over matter or new thought philosophies, this idea that you can think your way to health.

That sounds like Christian science. Well, he was a big hero of Mary there, who launches the

Christian science movement. Mary Baker Eddy. Yeah, sorry, sometimes

I spend so much time in books with these people, I just call them by their first name. My dear friend

Mary there, who had it wrong. Yeah, she's another one. So, Quimby starts this idea, and Christians are not the only one borrowing from it.

Like you said, the Christian science movement bursts out of it. Now, the key figure we need to talk about here is

E. W. Kenyon. E. W. Kenyon, born 1867, lives into 1948.

So, he's at the turn of the century. Remember, we talked about Pentecostalism and all that was happening in the early 1900s.

E. W. Kenyon grabs onto Quimby's new thought philosophies and begins to merge it into Christian teaching.

So, Kenyon is a guy who takes new thought philosophy, turns it into a theology, and begins to teach that God is in this type of thing.

You know, your beliefs now can impact your level of health and wealth. If you believe or speak or think your way into health and wealth, then you're figuring this thing out and you've got what you need.

If you're not, well, you've got a problem. And so, Kenyon becomes the poster child.

But early on, it's not like people are writing books like they write today. His work is a bit obscure.

You've got to really, really dig to find him in these early roots. But there comes a man who takes everything that E.

W. Kenyon started and puts it on steroids. His name is

Kenneth Hagan. Kenneth Hagan is born in 1917. He lives until 2003, 2004.

It was 2003, though some historians have listed it as 2004. I'm not sure why. But him, he's the biggest player until Kenneth Copeland.

And let's talk a little bit about Kenneth Hagan. He's one of the first to start publishing books after books after books on this type of teaching.

D. R. McConnell is one of the guys who takes his teachings, lines them up next to E. W.

Kenyon, and discovers that what Hagan had done is plagiarized everything that Kenyon was teaching.

This is when Word of Faith teaching gets really, really dangerous. They begin teaching that Christ was basically like our big brother, essentially.

He came down, lived as just a man. He was just a man under the anointing of God, with the power of God, anointed and baptized and filled, born again by the

Spirit of God. And so, you know, Chris, you can do all the things that Jesus did, too.

Basically, you're in the image of God. So if you're poor, you need to be rich. If you're sick, why are you sick?

You just haven't tapped into your true identity as a little god. You are just another version of God, since you're in his image.

And what you think is what you are, and what you speak is what you are, and it begins to merge a lot of the

New Thought theology with a twisted hermeneutic on creation, on our identity in Christ, and on what

Christ did as a man who was fully God still. He was never just fully man.

He was fully man and fully God. And Hagan starts his course with a dramatic conversion story, talks about dying and going into glory, and he also talks about him going to hell, that he had all these extra experiences that no

Christians had. So he was, of course, special. He spoke directly for God.

He had divine revelation. He used to say that God told him,

God said. He would teach that ultimately, you know, you could live a sinless life.

A lot of the Word of Faith heresy is kind of a sinless life, the way Jesus was a sinless man. You can be a sinless man, too, and not in the sense of Christ's righteousness being imputed to us as believers.

Not that. Not that God sees us differently because of our mediator, the

Lord Jesus, but that you literally, in the human physical sense, can live sinless. And we know that is not true.

Yeah, a lot of that may be from the roots of the Wesleyan holiness movement, because even

John Wesley believed theoretically that a human being on this earth could achieve a sinless state.

He did. And that is another reason why we need to be aware of history and seeing how these guys simply borrowed a menu of ideas, marketed it well, turned it into something that nobody had, and it's literally just like marketers do now.

If I put out an ad and I make you think that you're less happy, less fulfilled, and less materially blessed than what you see in that ad, it builds a consumeristic drive, doesn't it?

I need to get that thing. I need to have that thing. And when you start promoting a biblical theology that says you can have a sinless life if you, and then fill in the blank, or God taught, and then fill in the blank, or God told me, fill in the blank, ultimately you can build up a following of people that are always behind you somehow.

And again, in a very pastoral sense, pastors are called to a very high standard.

First Timothy 3 is not for anybody, right? It is, in a sense.

We should all strive for holiness, but our pastors should be on some level, if you will, in quote, ahead of us in that I don't want to follow some guy who says from behind the pulpit, hey, welcome to the service today.

Just so you all know, I'm struggling, you know, with pornography like many of you men are, but God is gracious.

I don't want, I want a pastor that is growing unto God's glory and holiness. So let's make clear, there is a standard that our pastors should have.

That's why Paul told Timothy that a new convert, a man that is a new convert should not be placed in the office of the elder pastor or overseer.

So there's that. But these guys did something different. It wasn't their holiness in a sense that they were being sanctified or they were more mature.

It was that they seemed to have this new revelation, this greater interpretation that Christians had never heard before.

And when people heard that, they flocked and healing tents filled up as other men at the same time, like Oral Roberts, began to use

Word of Faith theology, but also introduce the prosperity gospel. I was just reading yesterday in a book by Oral Roberts from the 1940s and 50s, there were multiple print versions called,

If You Need Healing, Do These Things. And Oral Roberts literally opens his book up by saying,

Jesus's greatest desire, his ultimate priority for you is to materially prosper and to be healthy across the board.

Never mind being saved. Never mind being sanctified. Never mind God's will that you be serving and using your spiritual gift or that you be sexually pure or that you suffer well.

I mean, could you imagine Oral Roberts writing to the Christians that were being blamed by Nero for burning

Rome, as Peter wrote to them? Could you imagine Oral Roberts writing to the church at Philippi as Paul says, hey, consider it a privilege.

You're sharing in the sufferings of Christ. Could you imagine that? Well, Oral Roberts introduces that to Americans, which at a time, what are we?

We're capitalistic. We love this idea of gaining, of being better, of being elite.

That's why the prosperity gospel and the word of faith movement have worked better now than any time in history, because we can literally stand up in front of a crowd and say, look at my life.

That's why my uncle has been able to go over to Nigeria and down to South America and into the third world, into India and other places and say, look at the way

God blesses us. If you do this and do this, you can have it too. And hundreds of thousands of people, and I'm not exaggerating, you can check the stats, millions at services in India.

And one of them I was at in 2004, and he's gone plenty of times since and had even more people in the crowd.

Millions of people will give their last dollar to obtain the thing that the wealthy, healthy word of faith preacher is promising.

And all of this traces back to roots that divorced from scripture.

Your mind, yes, it should think on things that are above. Yeah, we should dwell on whatever is right and true and pure.

Certainly Paul was clear out of the church at Philippi. There's a way of thinking for a Christian. Absolutely.

But your mind is not designed to suddenly heal you. That's not your healing mechanism.

Your mind can't help you escape from suffering. Your mind is to stay focused on the things of the word of God and the things of God so that you can endure.

And just recently, my pastor was preaching, Pastor Tony, our teaching pastor, was, he started a series even before the horrific events in Texas just the other day.

We had started the series on Sunday, Chris. It was just the providence of God and His timing for our church to be in that series.

We didn't plan it. We weren't doing it because of Vegas. And again, the Texas shootings happened during our services.

The series is called, is God aware of all the bad news. And in that sermon, he said, whatever captures your heart will control your mind.

He was teaching our people that they need to be passionate for the right things.

And if you're passionate for material things and if you're passionate for comfort and ease, then when tragedy hits, you very quickly will crumble because your mind has not been captured by the things of God.

And our view of God is what carries us through. None of that means that trials won't happen.

You and I both know, and you're going through things, and I'm going through things, and we're all going through things, that we know we're not going to escape.

I can't just speak myself out of suffering, but I go to God's word, I turn to His truth, and I trust

Him through it, and that sanctifies me. It's not fun. Justin Peters said just yesterday on our video programs, he said, let me just, for the record, say,

I don't like having cerebral palsy. This isn't fun, but I've learned to consider it all joy because of the results it's producing in my walk with God.

And I think there's something to be said biblically about those principles, about suffering and sanctification and what

God is doing in our life. And the Word of Faith prosperity preachers miss it. They give people false hope, false promises, and that's the history.

And so you have E .W. Kenyon, and you've got Kenneth Hagin, and you've got Oral Roberts, and then what happened is, and I'll read a quote to you of a guy who came along, and actually

Kenneth Hagin Jr. recounts in D .R. McConnell's book here, the beginning of Copeland's relationship with Kenneth Hagin.

Kenneth Copeland was a poverty -stricken student from Oral Roberts University. He came to one of the seminars, got turned on to the

Word of God, it says. He was in debt. He wanted Kenneth Hagin's tapes, so he offered to trade his car for them.

And one of the men there took a look at the old car and told him, keep the car, just take the tapes.

Bring the money when you can. And so young Kenneth Copeland memorized those tapes, and another great ministry was launched, end quote.

Kenneth Copeland plagiarized Kenneth Hagin, who plagiarized E .W. Kenyon, who borrowed an idea from a man who had no business influencing

Christianity or a denomination or any type of theology, Phineas Quimby. And that is what has led us to today.

We could leave it there, and that would be enough to tell people, run from Word of Faith theology.

It is not founded on historical orthodoxy. Amen. One of the things that I was curious about, because of the borrowing from other religions and cults and sects that has been going on in regard to Word of Faith leaders,

I was just curious, was there any conscious influence that the

Mormons had upon these men and still have upon them? Because they have a very similar view, and of course there may be differences among them, but some of the more notable figures in that movement have a similar view to the person of God the

Father as having a body of flesh, blood, and bone, just as we have.

And I was curious if that was something that they came up with on their own through perhaps satanic influence, or if it was a conscious borrowing from Mormonism.

You know, that's something I haven't found in my research that anybody consciously borrowed.

Have you seen anything like that? I haven't, and I think if we haven't found anything, here's why

I think might be the case. Word of Faith preachers are really smart, and they're really sneaky too.

Much like our adversary Satan does not show up at the foot of our bed with a pitchfork saying, here

I am to deceive you. I don't think a Word of Faith preacher, at least I haven't found one, who outright has given evidence that he's borrowing from Mormonism, because he knows right away that a large swath of evangelicalism would toss him out as a false teacher.

These guys are more 2 Peter 2 from what I see, they're secretly introducing destructive heresies.

Now, behind the scenes, yeah, I mean, maybe they're deceivers that are laughing all the way to the bank, saying, here, what can

I grab from other religions that Christians who are biblically illiterate have no clue about? But I've yet, and again,

I'm younger and I'm learning and growing and hope to be learning and growing till I meet

Christ, that on this topic, I haven't found yet evidence that they're consciously and knowingly borrowing from Mormonism.

But there are a lot of similarities, you're right. Yeah, and I was also wondering, I know that Jimmy Swaggart was an opponent, a fierce opponent of Word of Faith teaching, but he also had that bizarre understanding of God having a body,

God the Father having a body of flesh, bone and blood, and having a size and weight and height of a typical human man.

But anyway, we're going to our midway break right now, and I know a number of you are waiting to have your questions asked and answered.

We'll get to as many of you as possible before the time runs out, but if any of those of you who would like to get in line behind them with a question of your own, do so now while you still have the time at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. And by the way, Kosti, I forwarded you our first question from Joey in Clifton, New Jersey, since it was rather lengthy and I thought

I'd give you time to look it over during the station break and you can answer it when we return. Awesome.

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that's linbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is

Kosti Hinn, nephew of renowned Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn, and he is the executive pastor of Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California.

Today we are addressing the historical roots of the Word of Faith heresy. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And while we are making publicly this connection between Kosti and his uncle

Benny, we want to make it clear that Kosti has thoroughly and publicly and adamantly renounced and denounced the theology of Benny Hinn as heretical and damnable and dangerous and evil, and we are rejoicing with Kosti in that departure that God enabled him to partake in, this departure from the

Word of Faith movement and into biblical soundness and into the truth of the real

Jesus and the real gospel of the scriptures. And once again, if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

U .S .A. Only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter over which you are asking. Before we return to the discussion,

I just have a couple of very important announcements to make. The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual

Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology. And remember, that is not the

Reformed Town Conference on Quaker Theology, it's the Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology, which is being held

November 17th through the 18th. It's coming up rather quickly, being held at the

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. The theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a reference to Satan from that classic

Reformation hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress. Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

If you would like to register for this conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology.

Then coming up in November, I'm sorry, in January, from the 17th through the 20th, the

G3 Conference is returning to Atlanta, Georgia, on the theme Knowing God, a

Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. The 17th of January will exclusively be a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and from the 18th through the 20th will exclusively be an

English -speaking edition of the conference. And this conference includes a mutual friend of both

Kosti and mine, Justin Peters, who we were discussing earlier of Justin Peters Ministries, who has just completed a video series with our guest

Kosti Henn. But not only will Justin Peters be on the roster at the

G3 Conference, but Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B. Charles Jr.,

Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askle, Anthony Methenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace will all be on that roster with Justin Peters this

January 18th through the 20th. If you would like to register, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com, and please, if you register for either of those events or if you are just contacting the organizations running those events and you want to find out more information, please remember to always tell any organization that is running an event that we advertise on Iron Trip and Zion Radio that you heard about those events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trip and Radio.

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Well, we are now back to our discussion with our guest Kosti Hinn, nephew of renowned

Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn and the executive pastor at Mission Bible Church of Tustin, California.

We are discussing the historical roots of the Word of Faith heresy. And before the break, we received an email with a question from Joey in Clifton, New Jersey.

And his question is, Dear Kosti, I completely agree with your comments on William Branham and can relate a personal experience.

In the late 1990s, more than 30 years after Branham's death in 1965, I was in the

Philippines on a business trip. While there, I encountered some of Branham's modern disciples.

I was absolutely shocked to find these Filipino people held to Branham as being the modern

Elijah. Their faith in him was unshakable no matter what I said.

As I spoke to them at length, it became very clear that they were holding to something that was not the gospel at all.

It was just a modernized cult focused on signs and wonders. My heart broke for these people and I felt my utter powerlessness to reach them.

It is at times like this when we must really trust the sovereignty of God and the power of All I could do at that point was share the gospel and plant the seed of the word of God.

I let them see that there was a sincere American Christian who completely disagreed with Branham's claims to be

Elijah. That was about 20 years ago. I can now only hope that God used that and other subsequent things in their lives to reach them.

I wonder if you could comment on whether you still see specific enduring influence of Branham today.

Thank you for your ministry. Well Joey, great question brother.

My answer is yes to making a comment on whether I see a specific enduring influence of Branham today.

Yes, there is unfortunately a lingering influence and I'm going to bring in a quote from one of the most modern prevalent movements today by Bill Johnson and Chris Vallotton.

Again, I'm referring to Bethel Church in Redding, California with their supernatural school of ministry.

Here is just a portion of the quote Bill Johnson to no doubt hundreds and now obviously thousands and tens of thousands who read his books and watch his sermons of millennials.

These are young people essentially with v -necks and skinny jeans. I'm one of them so I'm not making fun of that.

I'm all the young people are hearing this. Here's what I'm believing for. Johnson says,

I know it's never happened but I know that it must be for the end. There must be not just individuals. I'm thankful we have individuals that are rising up with such anointing, such strength and we have people scattered all over the planet right now that are just making a mess of things in all the right ways.

We are so encouraged. Johnson continues, but what I'm believing for is a generation.

A generation that will rise up with a corporate faith, a corporate anointing to press into realms because it's my conviction that as much as God put on a

William Branham or a Catherine Coleman or a Wigglesworth, that's referring to Smith Wigglesworth that we talked about earlier, he'll put far greater anointing on a company of people than he ever would on an individual.

To do that, there must be a corporate sense of, and Quote continues, we have to deal with issues of obeying the rules of this kingdom to tap into the resources of this kingdom.

We cannot use the principles of this world to expect to tap into unlimited resource of the kingdom of God.

I have no clue what Johnson is talking about in Balaton. Their theology makes very little sense.

They use the word breakthrough, power, kingdom often, corporate anointing. It's as confusing as you could ever think something could be because it divorces from the scriptures, but what

I can tell you in quoting him on that, it's from a sermon back in 2010, ultimately they're very much looking to William Branham as one of their heroes.

They have publicly asked for the mantle of William Branham. And by mantle, of course, if you look at scripture and Elijah and Elisha, you remember the relationship there and Elisha asking for a double portion and the mantle being thrown, that idea has been taken so far, even to where when

I was a young man, I was prophesied over that my uncle's mantle would fall on me and I would have a greater anointing.

It's just, it's not even eisegesis, taking a text. It's fantasy.

It's made up. It doesn't even belong in a conversation with the Bible. So Joey, unfortunately,

Branham's legacy is still living on today, not just in the Philippines, but here in one of the most popular movements.

And of course, they have the banjeezus culture, they are on your radio every day, and we need to be standing up for truth and being clear about God's word.

Oh, so the jesus culture is connected with Branham. Jesus culture is

Bethel's band. So Bill Johnson, Chris Vallotton, Bethel Music, Kim Walker Smith, Jesus Culture, the band, all of them are part of that movement.

They all come out of Redding. And they look to Wigglesworth, Coleman, Branham, Roberts, Hagen, my uncle

Benny, others as their historical lineage of anointed faith workers and mighty men and women of God.

That's the signs and wonders lineage they appeal to. And I've grown up in that.

Those were our faith heroes as well. And so Branham's influence is still going on today.

Now they'll avoid certain things, like certain teachings he had. They'll differ on various points of theology, but they will not call him a false teacher, they will actually call him a faith hero.

Wow, and it's so tragic to see the popularity of Jesus culture. It's very, very disconcerting.

We have Joe, I'm sorry, not Joey, we have a regular Joe, Joe in Slovenia, who says,

Brother Chris, please have Brother Costi explain what seems to be at the heart of the

Word of Faith movement, the belief in the force of faith. The Word of Faithers genuinely believe that words can be used to manipulate the faith force and thus actually create what they believe

Scripture promises, health and wealth. Do Word of Faithers actually believe this faith force operates independently of God's sovereign will, and that God himself is subject to it?

Isn't this full -blown idolatry turning our faith and by extension ourselves into God?

Thank you for being fearless and contending for the faith once delivered to the saints.

That's Joe in Slovenia. Well, first of all, I'm going to answer it, but I don't even have to.

That was like a mini -sermon. That was awesome. You answered your question,

Brother. They really do believe that they have some semblance of control.

I mean, they're little gods, so the sovereign big God certainly, in some way, shape, or form, through their theology, certainly bows to their little god will and their little god confessions.

But more specifically, yeah, we, growing up even, so Romans 10 .9, believe in your heart, confess with your mouth, right?

Salvific faith. Faith in Jesus to save? Well, we also marry that to faith as a force, and that's why

I wanted to compliment Joe. He did a great job explaining it. The Word of Faith movement views faith as a force.

It is not faith in Christ. It is not that I'm just justified by faith, and it's a belief and a confession in Christ.

That same confession and belief for salvation can tap into material inheritance.

It can change any circumstance. So, if I'm justified by faith, and I'm saved by grace through faith, and I can proclaim

Christ as my Lord and my Savior, and literally in what I think is my will, but is actually the electing hand of God that's initiating my salvation, but, you know, we often say it,

I chose Christ, I turned to Christ. Ultimately, His sovereign hand was upon us doing that in us, but let's just say, for all intents and purposes, because we're puny humans, we kind of say,

I turned to Christ. So, if I can confess Him as Lord and choose Him, in quote, well, then

I can choose my own material destiny as well, and I can confess, fill in the blank.

I can believe, fill in the blank, and I can choose to have, fill in the blank. Yeah, faith as a force is found nowhere in the

Bible, even when Jesus healed. Take a tour through the Gospels in His healing ministry.

Sometimes He saw faith and was moved by it, like the centurion. Speak the word,

He told the Lord. Other times, like John 5, the man didn't even know who Jesus was at Bethesda, and Jesus healed him anyway.

You can't create a formula for God. You can't turn Christ's healing ministry into a force or any type of formula to get what you want.

He's sovereign in healing, and that faith that people had in Him was that He was the

Son of God. It was faith in who Jesus was, not mere faith in what

He could do and using faith as a force to get what you want. So, great question, Joe. You tell me, keep going, and great job contending.

I say, you keep going, and great job standing up for truth as well. Thank you,

Joe. Keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in Slovenia and beyond. We have

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,

I cannot help but wonder if in the infancy of the Pentecostal movement that there were manifestations of the miraculous that drove the young and growing movement into such a huge organization, were there manifestations of the miraculous, either those that were the result of trickery or satanically created false miracles?

Great question again. What was his name, Chris? Remind me real quick. That was CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

Hey CJ, thanks for your question. I can comment as well. I wonder the same thing.

If one or two instances or minor instances or even major instances of God working supernaturally or potentially a false sign or wonder creates that type of hysteria,

I'll offer a personal illustration not to take my experience and use it to propagate truth.

Truth is truth. What the Bible says is what the Bible says, but I have experienced that in some level growing up.

If somebody did get healed, and I've never denied that God heals, and Chris, I know you don't as well,

God heals. And so we saw at times, not from the hand of a faith healer, not even from the anointed service or whatever and the music and the atmosphere, but at times we would pray and you're just praying for people and so -and -so's cancer goes into remission.

Or a woman who couldn't have a baby was praying that she could and suddenly did.

Now that didn't mean everybody got a baby, but what faith healers would do in my circles growing up is if God worked in someone's life in a powerful way, they would ride that story off into the sunset.

And so it's kind of similar, you know, back in early Pentecostal history.

Yeah, maybe some things happened that were remarkable, providential, supernatural, and maybe some things happened, actually uncertain things, some things happened based on history that were false and manufactured in,

I wouldn't discount, potentially demonic. I think that category belongs at least on the board.

We have to ask questions and really know that we have an adversary and he's seeking to deceive. So let's not be ignorant to spiritual warfare just because we have a view of cessation concerning certain gifts.

But yeah, they use one or two things and they run wild with it. And it makes a lot of money, it puts a lot of people in seats, and it creates ministry momentum.

If God does one thing, they often will use that story and embellish it for years to come.

So that's, I wonder the same thing. I think you're right on. Thank you, CJ. And we have a listener in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Bibi, who asks something that relates to something that you just said.

Bibi says, have you ever seen a miracle performed in your midst, even though you believe now that the teaching and the teachers were false, but have you nonetheless experienced or witnessed something that could be explained by no other cause than an absolute undeniable miracle, such as a blind person or deaf person or somebody with something that was very seeable by all surrounding that person, that was healed or cured right in the midst of a healing service that you attended?

Great question. I've never seen in the midst of a healing service a verifiable, miraculous healing in which somebody had an ailment or something and then had a 100 % undeniable outworking of miraculous power in which they no longer did, looked, or even experienced the same thing they did.

And here's what I mean by that. I saw plenty of people stand up out of wheelchairs. I never would deny that.

But they didn't look like the people that Jesus healed in the New Testament and the apostles healed in the

New Testament. They often were still limping. And you can watch the footage at a crusade that my uncle or anyone else, they often are limping.

And what the excuse was, was, wow, those legs have been dead for so many years. They came alive. That's why they're a little tight.

So that's why they're limping. They got to use the muscles again. They haven't been using. And I get that logic behind that.

And it really explains it well, but here's the problem. When Jesus healed, it was immediate.

And when men picked up pallets and walked, they didn't limp around. And when people were jumping and leaping and praising

God and lifting their hands, jumping through the streets, going crazy, shouting to the rooftops, and everyone said, hey, there's the limp, lame guy that couldn't walk.

He's not hopping around because he hasn't used his muscles in years. He looks like us.

Actually, he's more athletic than me now. And so that was what we see in Scripture. So I never saw that.

I never saw the direct turnaround, the 180. You know how when someone gets saved and everyone does a double take?

Kind of like, what in the world happened to them? That's true repentance. There's no kind of limping through.

When you're saved, you're saved. And while we're progressively sanctified, you see an immediate change, right? People don't have the taste for the same things.

They turn away, and then they grow. Healing in the same way. Instant healing. Jesus healed immediately.

And so I never saw that. However, I did experience real stories with real people

I know and care for of the power of prayer and God healing. I used the example earlier of a woman who couldn't have a baby being able to have a baby, because we have friends who the woman couldn't have a baby.

And that actually, in the same marriage, the same situation, my friend, I won't name his name,

I'll just respect his privacy, but I have no issue. I could call him right now and have him on the program. He had cancer.

Hodgkin's lymphoma cancer. And they couldn't have children. And I can tell you today, they monitor his health, but he doesn't have cancer.

And they have a little boy who is named Elijah. They call him

Eli. So I know people who have experienced the power of prayer in God's healing hand.

So even as a cessationist, that's only me saying that people don't wield these gifts, or at least

I don't believe they wield these gifts every day, all day, like the apostles. But it's ludicrous to say that God doesn't heal and that he's not a

God of the supernatural. So that's kind of a big picture on that. I know it's a longer answer, but I wanted to be fair with respect to God's power still at work today.

Yeah, amen. And God's elects are scattered even among these heretical churches.

There are sincere people that have been deceived, and I'm not saying that that's an excuse to allow yourself perpetually to be deceived, because you're not a

Berean, or you're not Berean enough. Searching the scriptures to prove everything that is being taught is true.

But at the same time, there are people, sincere people, people who perhaps are even new believers, or for some reason are still connected after many years to these churches, but are truly children of God, born -again individual.

So obviously there's no reason why God is not going to ever answer their prayer, just because they might happen to be, at the time, temporarily trapped in some false religion.

Obviously they are Christians themselves, but they have been deceived into remaining in some kind of a false religion that professes to be

Christian. Yeah, good point. Really good point. And we are going to our final break right now, and if anybody would like to join us, we are running out of time rapidly, so send in your email now if you intend to have

Kosti answer it on the air. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with Kosti Hinn. I am Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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We are now back with our guest, Kosti Hinn, and we are discussing the historical roots of the

Word of Faith heresy. Before we go to any more of our listeners' questions,

Kosti, if you could further update us on modern -day contemporary movements that have been heavily influenced by some of these heretical figures from the past, these very dangerous and apostate figures from the past.

Absolutely. Modern movements include the aforementioned Bethel Church in Reading, Bill Johnson, Chris Vallotton and the

School of Supernatural Ministry, another one that people may not associate with Bethel or even with the old -time heresies is

Todd White, who is the newest and latest and greatest modern faith healer.

Instead of requiring services with music and atmosphere, quote, he goes out on the streets and puts on a real good show.

He's starting a new multi -million dollar school in Texas.

He's a member of Gateway Church, a church that I used to attend when I was at Dallas Baptist University, actually part of my conversion story in the season there, but Gateway Church.

Pastor Robert Morris, author of The Blessed Life, and their worship leader is Kerry Jobe, and so you've just got a lot of ties through these modern churches.

Places like IHOP, another one. Anywhere that you see a signs and wonders or supernatural school of ministry, it's going to be tied to the merger of early

Pentecostalism, faith healing movement, word of faith theology, somewhere in there, even if it's behind the scenes, you're going to have a prosperity theology, someone's getting rich off this stuff, and you've got charismatic renewal theology, third wave, and modern -day apostles.

The New Apostolic Reformation is another one. If you see leaders, like, involved with that or claiming to be apostles, that's all tied to some level of word of faith theology, and my view is this.

If Satan is, you know, the father of lies, and he's been deceiving for thousands of years now, he's going to change his game here, there, and everywhere a little bit, but in general, his strategy is always the same.

He's operating from the same playbook. His goal is to deceive people, so old -time heresies just get new styles.

They get new names, they get new characters, but it's all the same old thing. It is taking the deity of Christ and diminishing and demeaning it, which is where the heresy lies.

I'll quote you from page 29 of Bill Johnson's book, When Heaven Invades Earth.

He says that Jesus did not do his miracles as God, but as a man in right relationship with God.

He actually, it's reversed in the quote, he says he did not do his miracles, he didn't do his miracles as a man, or sorry, he did his miracles as a man in right relationship with God, and then says not as God, and the reason for that is because then they're attainable for us today, and that's the teaching.

It is teaching that Christ came and was mere man, not fully man and fully God, but just mere man, and so those are some of the modern movements.

People dismiss it. They don't like when you touch their music. Don't mess with Jesus culture.

Don't mess with my favorite bands on the radio. It's kind of the way that people view it, because we get emotionally tied to music, and we love songs, and we think, oh, that sounds so great, but that's one of the portals they use to infiltrate the culture, and much of evangelicalism is clueless right now to how dangerous this movement is.

It's a Trojan horse. Our greatest threat is not from outside. It is from within.

It is the men that take pulpits and secretly introduce destructive heresies this way, so that's a list.

There's definitely more you can find if you do research, but those are the big ones right now, Chris.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says,

I understand that many decades ago the Assembly of God excommunicated the

Oneness Pentecostals, and there seems to have been, at that time and for many years following, a very serious view of the

Trinity and protecting that doctrine as being essential in the faith, but it seems that over the years that this teaching of the

Trinity has been reduced to a much lower rung of importance, where Trinitarian Pentecostals and Charismatics are embracing

Oneness Pentecostals as their brothers with little consequence in regard to their difference.

Can you trace the roots of this acceptance of anti -Trinitarian theology, and how serious do you believe it is?

Well, I think it's really serious, and I think that some of the acceptance more easy to find is in modern times.

First of all, again, it's a very serious issue. The Trinity is part of historical orthodoxy.

If you start to mess with the Trinity, you have entered into heretical territory, so I'm with you.

What I think modern times shows is men like T .D. Jakes, who verifiably have kind of lived in the

Oneness Pentecostal realm, while living a little bit in the middle, and playing games like Lifeway Bestsellers and PBN, and then appearing at conferences with sound teachers.

A guy like T .D. Jakes is a perfect example of somebody who lives in the mushy middle.

That's what we call it a lot when we talk even here at Mission Bible. We call it the mushy middle. It's the mushy middle.

You can live in that area of what seems to be orthodoxy, but people can't tell what you are.

And so, yeah, you're right. A lot of people have accepted this Oneness theology. It is heretical.

It is dangerous. I'm not sure historically all of the instances in which it was accepted or where it bled in, but in modern times, it's linked to popularity.

If you make money, if you're real good at getting hits on your website, if you're a

Lifeway Bestseller and you differ on something like that, they tend to look at it as just a minor issue.

And I would say it's a major, major issue, and you're absolutely right.

It is, and we need to treat it that way. Do you know anything about any change in the view of the

Trinity with the members of Phillips, Craig, and Dean?

They, years ago, were very open about their Oneness Pentecostalism, but I understand that they were invited to perform at some kind of a

Southern Baptist event and people were making the claim that they had changed.

Do you know anything about whether they truly had any repentance in regard to their heretical view and any change for a biblically

Orthodox and historically Christian understanding of the Trinity? I'm not sure about what happened with Phillips, Craig, and Dean in regards to the repentance issue, but I did hear about some of the kerfuffle that erupted with the

SBC in that situation. But here's what I would say on that, as well. You know, repenting from it is great, but unless something becomes really obvious and people lose friends and they lose money and they lose record sales for their repentance,

I tend to be a little bit skeptical. Now, not everybody has to go out like I did publicly and make some big deal about everything.

I'm a band, and they need to as well because they're a public figure. And members of that band are pastors, at least two of them, maybe all three.

So yeah, then you're in that territory of owing people a clear explanation, and here's what

I've seen. Guys say, sorry, and guys say, well, we've changed, or I don't really think that way as much anymore.

And what they're doing is they're responding to the criticism. We just saw that, didn't we, this week when Carl Lentz was on The View, and he flat out does not answer the question, is abortion sin?

And is homosexuality a sin? He kind of wiggles around and gets all mushy on The View because he doesn't want to offend people.

Then after a couple days of Twitter, Facebook, and the evangelical world exploding over it, he releases a statement today and says, well,

I believe it's sin. A little bit of error is all it takes.

A little bit of waggling on the T is all it takes. Truth is truth, error is error, and often it's like false teachers.

I mean, I'm not saying Phillips, Craig, and Dean are false teachers. I'm just saying that money and fame do a lot to cause people to say sorry for things because they realize it's going to cost them.

And I'm not painting them with that brush. I'm just saying, without knowing all the details, I would look at both sides. Did they repent?

Okay. Did they lose anything for that repentance, or did they just gain evangelicalism back while still keeping their oneness crowd or credibility in other areas?

I think people do a lot for money today, Chris, and I've been accused of it, and I laugh at that. I'm not getting big checks for selling out my uncle.

I'm standing for Christ. And if you take everything away, I've still got my local church. I got the

Word of God. I'm saved. And who cares about book sales? If you sell some books and you help some people, great.

But at the end of the day, you want to have fidelity to Christ and the gospel. And so, again, on that whole topic,

I would say that there's a lot underneath the surface that only these men in God know. Amen.

And obviously, you do believe that if they have remained in their oneness

Pentecostal teaching that they are false teachers, speaking of Phillips, Craig, and Dean. Yep.

They're outside of the lines of orthodoxy and what the scriptures teach. So they would fall in that category.

And you would think that if T .D. Jakes and Phillips, Craig and Dean, and anybody else who had genuinely renounced something as heretical as anti -Trinitarian theology, you would think that a hallmark of their current existence would be to be shouting from the rooftops the truths of Trinitarianism.

It wouldn't be something that was shuffled amongst other issues, and it wouldn't be a quiet transformation.

It would be something that would be very central and something that we'd be very vociferous about, wouldn't you think?

I would, and I would say Zacchaeus was an example of that, and again, I'm not putting myself on a pedestal.

I want to put a disclaimer in front of this. I'm not a model for, you know, anything. I'm just serving the

Lord. I will say this, though. It's five years that I was doing ministry here at Mission Bible, and then it was this year

I talked to my wife, and I said, I want to prep you because I'm done with being silent.

I want to be one of those pastors that stands up for truth. I don't want to be one of those guys that hides in a corner, takes my paycheck, and keeps everybody happy.

I want to stand for truth no matter what the cost. Are you with me? And my wife prayed through it. We talked about the consequences, and we decided together as a team in marriage that we didn't want to be one of those people, one of those couples in ministry that lives in the mushy middle.

And so, yeah, I think when you walk away from something, you need to get on the rooftops if you can. You need to send an email to Chris Arnzen.

You need to send an email to Justin Peters. You need to get on the horn and ask people if they'll let you come and tell the story, if they'll let you come and encourage the saints, if they'll let you come and say, hey,

I'm not one of those guys. I'm different. I'm part of your family. You're my brother and sister in Christ.

Can I be in the game? Can I fight the good fight with you? And that's what we decided to do. I asked, and if all you guys would have said, go back into hiding and get your doctorate, then you can come out and talk,

I would have said, okay. I would submit to the system. But you guys were gracious. You tested me.

You asked me questions. I proved to be saved and bearing fruit. And I'm thankfully a part of your guys' lives and in ministry today.

But yeah, there's none of this living in the shadows and hiding from reality. If you got saved and you were on a big platform teaching something false, you belong back on that platform teaching something true.

You owe it to the world and you owe it to Christ and we'll all face him one day and give an account. And we've been given a stewardship.

So I want to be faithful with mine. And people ask, well, are you trading on your last name? Are you trading on your uncle's fame?

I'm not trading on anything. I'm simply saying, I got a last name. It's interesting.

Okay, fine. But here's the gospel and here's Christ. It's not about Costi Hinn. It's about Jesus Christ.

And so yeah, for Phillips, Craig and Dean, Jake's, all of them, lose the lifeway sales, lose friends, who cares?

Gain credibility for the name of Jesus Christ. That's what we got to do. Amen. We have

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks,

I don't know if you already addressed this, but where would you put Joel Osteen into the mix of modern day heresies?

He seems to be a lot different in his approach than his father, still heretical, but different.

He seems more reminiscent of Norman Vincent Peale and Robert Schuller than of your uncle.

What are your thoughts on Joel Osteen? Joel Osteen is the perfect example of the mushy middle of evangelicalism.

He cannot be pinned, that's his goal, as anything that you've ever seen.

You're right. He's not as weird as my uncle. You're right. He doesn't go into the faith -healing realms of his father.

Actually, his dad, and B .R. McConnell quotes this, his dad held

Kenyon, or sorry, Hagen, who was influenced by Kenyon, in very high regard.

That is the history of Joel Osteen's lineage, reaches back to John Osteen, his father, who was really a proud

Word of Faith teammate to Kenneth Hagen, and he was part of the whole positive confessions theology.

So here's what Joel Osteen has done. He's taken the most attractive element of what his dad did and what everybody else did, and he's rebranded it and put it in front of America.

And now he's the one laughing all the way to the bank, but ultimately the judgment seat of Christ will determine the rest.

But here's what I would say. Osteen is in that same camp. He's just learned to brand himself really well to attract a lot of people to him.

That's why I call it the mushy middle. People can't pin you. He can go on The View, Larry King, and then he can take the pulpit in America, and millions of people will like him.

I talk to people every week. They say, yeah, Joel Osteen's my pastor. Oh, I like that Osteen guy. You know, your uncle is a real crook.

Osteen's the one that I like to listen to. And I think our, like, people just aren't discerning.

They don't realize that Osteen was a real smart young man. Joel Osteen, he saw all the criticisms and all the controversies and said, you know how

I should do this? I'll take all of the positive confession theology, but without all the bad press of the crazy faith healers.

And he fills a stadium every week doing that. So you've got to keep him in the category.

He just does different tricks than the rest of them. So you think that Joel Osteen, or perhaps you know in some way that I'm not familiar with due to your own background, you have surmised at the very least that Joel Osteen has consciously created this identity in theology by picking and eliminating certain things to become a more palatable televangelist to the masses.

Perhaps eliminating things that might be scarier to the average person that may view faith healers on a lunatic fringe and may be borrowing things from the self -help movement that seems to be more universally popular.

You think this is a conscious thing or do you think he's just a deceived person himself who has bought into this stuff and has become very gifted at pushing it?

I'm speaking from conversations that I've had with my father and my uncle growing up.

I was a big Joel Osteen fan. I really was. When he first came out, I wanted to be him.

He was so cool, he was so smooth, and he was not weird to me. Remember, a charismatic kid.

With Uncle Benny, I wanted to be Joel. This guy, he does all the good stuff, but he doesn't do it.

So I remember sitting one time with my dad and my uncle, and they literally said this. It was my dad that started the conversation, because we've been around the circle with John Osteen before Joel.

John was not foreign to my father or my uncle or any of that circle. So I remember my dad saying, wow, he's so different than his dad in so many ways, but so similar in many others.

I remember my dad and my uncle and I having this conversation that Joel was brilliant. He branded a

TV ministry. He knew how to create good marketing. He still knew how to be what we would call him.

Again, it was back then. We thought, wow, he's so faithful to the Word, and he's still very much faith -filled, but he's really a teacher to modern people who maybe aren't ready for the healing ministry yet.

And we viewed him that way. He was a hero, because he took the best of positive confession, but he moved away from the oddity of the faith -healer stigma.

So that is where I surmised those things, is from conversations with my uncle and my father when

John Osteen is brought up and when they are talking about a very young Joel who's learning and crafting how he wants to be in ministry.

That's what that story's from. So I mean, that's kind of a behind -the -curtain thing that I probably won't ever really share, but these are the conversations that we have when we're looking at guys that we hold in high regard back then.

This is a question that came up the last time you were on. We have

John in Bangor, Maine, who says, Do you believe that your uncle is merely a duped individual like many of his followers, or is he knowingly deceiving people?

Is he an out -and -out charlatan and fake, and is he very conscious of those facts?

Two things on that. 2 Timothy 3 .13, I think that he is an evildoer, an imposter who has gone from bad to worse, and he is deceiving and being deceived.

I strongly believe, based on evidence and being a part of his ministry in his life for decades growing up, that he really thinks he's anointed.

He really thinks he's got it. I also, from decades of growing up with evidence, have seen him knowingly deceive and know that there's things he should not have done.

But like the end of 2 Peter chapter 2 refers to, at the urging of family members, my late grandmother, and many others,

Uncle Benny has continued to be like a dog who returns to his vomit. That's what

Peter said, not me. So that is heartbreaking for me, Chris. He fits the paradigm that's why

I pray for repentance. I believe that he'll repent. I have to. I love, hope, spare, and believe, endure all things.

I'm every day saying, Lord, please save Uncle Benny. And yet,

I'm well aware of the Bible's description, and my uncle continues to fit that description of a false teacher who knows what he's doing, and is also being used by darkness to outwork

Satan's plan to deceive people. Is there any way that you could provide any example of how you know he knowingly is deceiving or has deceived people?

Yeah, when he gets caught by you guys back then, when he taught nine persons of the

Trinity, when he falsely prophesied, when family members have even said, Benny, and these are impersonal conversations, you know, that service, no one got healed.

You can't say that anymore. You can't say this. You can't say that. And he would say, oh well, God is

God. I'm not God. You know, we're just fallible men operating as best as we can, but I'm not in charge of God changing his mind when he said that God was going to burn the homosexual community in America with fire.

He just changes the game. And so in those moments, you're literally watching a man say, well, and suddenly change his mind based on what?

The Bible? No. Based on getting caught saying something false and having to go back and make excuses for it.

And so time and time again, he's done that. And it's heartbreaking. I love him. I want him to change.

I beg the Lord to save him. But we still have to stand up for truth. Amen. And I know that your website is missionbible .org,

missionbible .org. Your friend, Justin Peters' website is justinpeters .org,

justinpeters .org. And I know that he has recordings of you giving your testimony and other things.

Any other contact information you care to give? Yeah, we're actually releasing a book in February called

Defining Deception. My co -author and I, it's our teaching pastor Tony Wood, we're releasing a book and it is going to be on the history of all of this.

It's also going to deal with modern movements like Bethel, Todd White, and deal with it in a fair and clear way.

But the book is called Defining Deception. You can go to definingdeception .info for all the information, and we'll keep doing our best to help people use discernment and know what

God's Word says. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. Thank you so much for joining us today on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.