Episode 9: Calvinism and Evangelism

The Rural Church Podcast. Two-point-up. Just a couple of pastors discussing life, ministry, theology, and the gospel from a local church perspective. Eddie, what's it time for?

The Rural Church Podcast.

Welcome to The Rural Church Podcast, episode...

What is it?

Nine.

Nine. All right. Episode nine. I'm your co-host, Alan Nelson, pastor of Perryville Second Baptist Church. With me is a few people, but first we'll do it in priority. Eddie Ragsdale. Say hello, Eddie.

Hello, Alan. Why don't you go ahead and introduce our other guests?

Yeah, I'll do this in priority. First, we have Alex. We have Alex Osborne.

Hey, Alan. It's great to be on the podcast. It's such a pleasure to finally be here and meet you, and I'm just delighted to be here.

Alex, tell us a little bit about yourself.

So I am a street preacher, and I love going to the streets and preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Amen.

That's the best way to summarize who I am.

Amen.

Obviously a born-again Christian.

Amen. Got a wife and two kiddos and one kiddo on the way, and then we have a returning guest, the one and only Gunnar Madewell.

Hello. Yeah, I've been on this podcast a few times.

You're basically like the third host. What if you have three hosts? Is everybody a co-host?

I don't know.

It's tri-host.

Tri-host.

Street Preaching at a Drag Queen Story Hour

What are we talking about today, Eddie?

Well, I was going to ask you and Gunnar, because I know that both of you went on a little trip to Little Rock last weekend. I thought I might ask you to share a little bit about what that was like. Where did you guys go?

I mean, you were going to go to the library?

Right. No, it wasn't a library. It was actually a little bar. They did a drag queen story hour at a bar, and we went.

Oh, I thought they'd done those at libraries.

Yeah, I thought they did too, but this one was at a bar, and they opened it up, and we went and preached. First time I've ever heard Gunnar. I've done evangelism with Gunnar before, but I've never been in a situation where he's actually preached.

He was preaching, man, and I was encouraged by that. What do you want to say about it, Gunnar?

Yeah, it's my first time street preaching. I've handed out tracts, obviously, spread the gospel, but my first time standing up on a platform preaching to people, calling unregenerate sinners to repentance.

Do you want to talk about why we were there? What the thing about it was?

Drag queen story hour.

Yeah, drag queen story hour. What happened was they had people outside signing people in. Inside was a drag queen reading to these children. Parents would come up to this ramp, to this restaurant, bringing their tiny children.

I'm talking about children that were barely able to walk inside of this bar to listen to this drag queen talk about who knows what. I don't know what book they were reading, and so we were out there preaching.

We had a few guys with us. They were handing out tracts. They were preaching. They were having conversations with some of the security people there, and we were just, as the parents would walk in, we would share the gospel with their parents, tell them they need to trust in Christ, repent of their sins, turn from it, don't go into that wicked place.

Then the people that were running it, we'd call them to repent. What happened was this woman behind us, she opened all her windows, opened her trunk, flared her music, so they try to drown us out. They turned the music on outside of the bar, tried to drown us out.

Quatro just stands up, and he's like, I got to preach Sunday, but I got to do it. So he just starts yelling from this bench, and he starts preaching. So that gets done. We're talking a little bit, and I'm trying to share the gospel with these people, but they're kind of walking away.

So I'm like, I got to preach too. So I get up on this bench, and I just start straight preaching from Romans 6, 23. The wages of sin and debt, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

I got threatened to be beat up. I got cussed at. People told me that I was a bigot. People told Quatro that he was a bigot, and some other things that we can't probably even mention on the podcast. But it really was, it was hard to watch these little defenseless innocent kids.

They didn't know any better, and they were just being rushed in there by their parents, forcing them to be indoctrinated by this wickedness. Listen to this, Eddie.

We did have an actual two minutes, maybe three minutes to preach to the actual drag queen, and they came out, and he said, now I haven't verified this, so maybe he was just lying, but he said, this is what he said.

He said, hey, I know all this stuff. I used to be Southern Baptist. I went on a mission. I was a missionary in Peru with the IMB. Oh, wow. He said all that. Now, it's possible, me and Gunner were talking about, it's possible he just made it up just to so I haven't verified it, but I will say this.

It's also possible. It's also possible, and it's terrible. What does it say about our vetting process? I'll obviously understand the best processes at times, Jesus had a Judas, so I understand, but at the same time, it really doesn't speak well.

Calvinism, the Doctrines of Grace, and Why They Fuel Evangelism

But I want to lay a foundation because we're going to talk, and we'll get Alex in, weigh in on this too, and you, Eddie. We're going to talk about, people are going to laugh when they hear this, but there really is a goat fest at Perryville next Saturday.

We're going to go, in a few days actually, we're going to go, we're going to preach and share the gospel, hopefully conversationally as well, pass out tracts, but one thing that's consistent about all of us, all four of us on the podcast tomorrow, we all ascribe to the doctrines of grace.

We're Calvinists, and Eddie, you want to talk real quick, just like a two-minute explanation, what is Calvinism? And then I want to talk a little bit, I want to get Alex weighing, why does it seem that Calvinists seem to be so zealous toward evangelism?

Not just whipping burgers and be like, man, I hope people know that we love them, but actually be like, no, here's the gospel and you need to repent. When we say Calvinism, what is that?

Yeah, I think we actually needed to define a couple of terms, because I was having a conversation with a brother who's not Calvinistic yesterday, and even he, and this guy has a doctorate, but even he was kind of like, I just don't want to be identified with a man.

And we hear that all the time, like it's all about Calvin, and this person said that their problem was with Calvin, and then I actually don't think that they know very much about the actual man himself.

They just have a concept of that word, right? But Calvinism, or to be Calvinistic, usually ascribes to what you mentioned. I like the term better, the doctrines of grace. Speaking of those five doctrines, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, which probably could be named better, maybe particular redemption, unconditional or irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

And each one of those doctrines, I think that they all hold together, and most Baptists believe in perseverance of the saints, and it's hard. I don't know how you would maintain any kind of Orthodox Christianity without some concept of the depravity of humanity, but I don't see a way that you get from the depravity of humanity to some sort of real security in one's salvation without those doctrines in the middle.

And so I would say that's basically what Calvinism is. Now, real quick, I would just like to say there are other words that we might want to talk about some other time, maybe on a different podcast, words like reformed, which takes… there's more to that.

There's being confessional. There's holding to more doctrinal positions than just the basic five points. But most people, I think, would say, well, if you believe that God is going to save who He's going to save, and that's already a fixed number, then why do you care about taking the gospel to a lost world, even being willing to preach on the street or take the gospel to people that have never heard, to people groups in the world with no access to the gospel?

But I've found in my own life that it's just the opposite. When I did not believe this way, when I was more Arminian, when I was more open to the argument that, well, it's just people's decision, that was when I was less about sharing the gospel.

I was more afraid that I was going to do it wrong, more afraid that I was actually going to drive people away from the gospel, and I actually shared the gospel less. But now I'm confident because actually what believing these doctrines means, it means that when we proclaim the gospel, God's people are going to respond with repentance and faith.

And so it's just the opposite of killing evangelism.

It lights evangelism. Amen. The only thing I would add, and I want to ask Alice a question. Only thing I'd add to that is, because yes, true, we are just kind of talking about Calvinism proper, I guess, but I'm a Reformed Baptist, or I kind of like the term particular Baptist.

And so to me, it's not just a soteriological position, but also ecclesiological. I mean, it's about my view of God, my view of the church, my view of the scriptures, my view of salvation. It's not just like, to boil it down to the five points, it's kind of like asking me, use one of your children to represent all your children.

I can't do that because I got five kids. I can't just have one. I mean, they're all five. They're all five of my children. But anyway, maybe that's a different podcast. So I want to ask Alex and Eddie kind of hit on it, but Alex, I believe you're 26, and have you been street preaching 10 years?

Yeah, more than 10 years, actually.

Okay, so explain to me two things. One, why you've been street preaching so long? Two, since you're a Calvinist, why are you out there street preaching?

Um, well, for the first question, I think, I would probably say I maybe wasn't ready, or I should have been more, you know, cautious about about getting up there. But you know, I think in the end, God used it.

But, you know, I'm less, I'm more discerning now, I think that of who should maybe get up in the box isn't just, you know, some teenager. Necessarily. But, you know, I think God's really used that to grow me and sanctify me.

And then secondly, as a Calvinist, you know, your authority, obviously, for I hope, for any Christian is the Bible, right? So we have to look, first off, what model there is in the Bible, for evangelism, what Christ commanded us to do, and he said to go into all the world, and preach, amen, preach the gospel.

And so, you know, we don't, we don't look for what is most effective in a worldly sense, or in a fleshly way. We look for what's most effective, in terms of, you know, what accomplishes God's mission, which is to preach the gospel.

And if the gospel is being preached, and then we're accomplishing the mission, and it's effective. But it flows out of the doctrines of grace to not care about people's carnal desires when preaching. A lot of evangelism we see nowadays is seeker sensitive, that people are more caring about how the world reacts to the way they're sharing the gospel, than they do about being faithful to God's word in preaching the gospel.

And so, as someone who believes that people are totally depraved, that they cannot save themselves, that no amount of coddling, or gimmicks can draw people, or convert one soul. And if it does convert them, in air quotes, then maybe they're not converted at all, really.

But we know it is the faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ, that that is the means God has chosen to call his elect, is the preaching of the gospel. And that's why we're drawn to it, is this is the biblical model.

And this is the only way that people will come, is if they hear the message of the gospel, that they are sinners, that Christ died and rose again, set them free from their sins, and that he commands all people everywhere to repent.

That is the life-giving message that the Holy Spirit uses to raise dead hearts to life, and make them born again from.

Their depravity. Amen. Yeah. Maybe you can weigh on this a little bit, Alex. You've been street preaching longer than me. I've only actually, well, I did a little bit of that on a mission trip in Romania, like in 2011.

But that was a little bit different, because it was like, it was expected. Like, they came to the medical mission, they stood out there, and I had to preach to them, you know, to get that started. So that was a little bit different.

But as far as like, actually just being on the street preaching, I've only really been doing it a little over a year. And one of the opposition that, an unanticipated opposition that I faced, is people who.

Profess to be Christians. Have you faced, have you? Oh yeah, yeah. Some of the fiercest opposition that I've experienced to open-air preaching has been from Christians. Actually, if you don't mind me telling a little story.

One time, I was out on the streets of Kitchener, Ontario, where I just moved from to here. We were out preaching, I was preaching the gospel, and there's this supposedly Christian who came up to me, interrupted me preaching the gospel to tell me I wasn't doing it right, that I wasn't being effective.

And then a Muslim guy I had had many conversations with, called him to repent many times, came and defended me against this so-called Christian, that he was just like, oh, he's just preaching the words of God.

Why are you like, why are you interrupting him? And like, so it was just an amazing scene that there was this Muslim guy defending the preaching of the gospel from a supposed Christian. And it's really sad that people get, so-called Christians, get so upset when they hear the preaching of the gospel in the public square.

For me personally, I've met open-air preachers I've never met before when I'm walking down the street and hearing them preach. Nothing brings more joy to my heart as a believer in Christ, hearing the name of Jesus Christ lifted up and preached in the open air.

At Anaheim this year, Eddie, I don't know if I told you, but there.

Was a street preacher and he was an actual messenger. Okay. Like, so it wasn't just like somebody condemning the SPC from the outside. He was actually inside the complex. Of course, we're out there by like the fountain and we're just out there for lunch.

We're just sitting around and he's up there preaching, you know, and I was encouraged. I was like, look at this guy, dude, he ain't playing. He's preaching to the SPC and, and some guys tried to shut him down, you know, and I was actually encouraged that there was a large number of people outside that pushed back against that.

I was like, no, let him preach, you know, one of the most encouraging things about Anaheim, honestly, to see that. I actually seen a pretty lengthy.

Interview with that pastor. I believe that pastor was from Texas and I was watching a YouTube channel where another pastor from actually, I picked up on this. I was in Utah on mission trip and we were in West Haven, which is just, which is Ogden and right next, I mean, borders with West Haven, the next community next to it is Roy.

And there was a pastor in Roy that was interviewing the brother in Texas that was street preaching there at Anaheim. Yeah. So pretty interesting how that, so I have a question kind of for all of you, but I'd really directed at Alex first, since he's the more experienced street preacher.

But now that you're all even gunner or street preachers, what would you say? Because I'm, I'm, I'm assuming that most of the audience of the Ruled Church podcast don't need to be convinced that proclaiming the gospel is a good thing.

Yeah. So that being said, from a real practical standpoint, you know, we see videos all the time on YouTube or whatever on Facebook of people street preaching. What would you say to people about how do you get started?

You know, how do you, how do you go from, I'm, I'm standing here on the street to I'm preaching the gospel.

Here on the street. I'm thinking a word, lift your voice. I mean, like, I know a dear brother who's like one of the most bold and audacious open air preachers that I've ever met in my life. He, he literally started by just standing at a stoplight and, and the only thing that came to mind was just yelling, repent.

He just yelled, repent over and over again, which is like, it's not the most ideal message, but you know, Hey, it's, it's a place to start. You know, I always recommend people if it's their first time, just read scripture, like just, just lift your voice and read a passage of scripture.

Cause then you, you, you know, you, you get the sense cause 10 seconds after you open your mouth, any fear of man goes away. Like, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's just overcoming that initial, like open your mouth, lift up your, lift up your voice and, and you'll see how the, the fear of man goes away and how God aids you with that.

And so just, just read some scripture, just find a busy street corner and read some scripture to some people.

Gunnar, what you've been looking at some verses. I don't know if you want to share any of that, but why don't we talk a little bit about Saturday? I know it sounds funny, but maybe talk a little bit about what's coming to our town.

And, and it's not, it's, it's, it's not that what's coming to our town, like drag queen story hour or something like that. That's, that's terrible. You know, that's like, we're going out and we're condemning, you know, even the very event, but what's coming to our town is it's not something like that.

It's just a little bit strange, I guess. So talk about that Gunnar and what we plan to do or do you have a verse?

Yeah. Let me just say real quick is goat fest. So is goat fest like about, you know, a small animal that people keep in their, on their farm? Is it that kind of goat fest or is it like the greatest of all time fest?

Or is it like, you know, you know, Satan and his legions kind of goat fest? What kind of goat fest are we talking about? Satan and his legions.

They're actually, well like parade their goats around and. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. The strangest part, like the one part of like really strange, apparently like at two o 'clock, there's like a goat lingerie pageant or something show, whatever you've got.

So that's kind of strange. That's.

Very strange. All right. G unit. So in scenario, what's happening is pretty much just an event for our town. It's going to be nationwide. People are going to come from all over. Really? How many people?

I think last year we had like 5 ,000 people. That hadn't happened in a couple of years.

Yeah. A couple of years ago. This is the first one post COVID, I believe. Yeah. So we're going.

To have thousands of people there. Thousands. And, um, so the thing it's not, I don't think so the difference between the drag reading thing and the goat fest is these people aren't going to be doing anything really explicitly wicked.

Like Christians can participate. Like, you know,.

My wife, I'm not sure how to talk, but like, there'll be Christians at the, you know, checking out the booth, stuff like that. Like, it's not, it's not necessarily, it's not a sinful event. You know, it's, it's going to the fair.

It's yeah. It's similar with more goatee. The goats at the fair. The percentage of goats though here. Will be much higher. Will be much higher than the percentage at the fair. People ask me, what is this?

I'm like, I don't know. I really don't know, but it is what it is. It's the chuckwagon races. Except with goats.

For goats. And lingerie. And lingerie. Well, there's some of that at the chuckwagon.

So I want to read from the 1689. Just go back theologically here in 1689. Chapter three is one of the best chapters, I believe in paragraph six says this. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath by the eternal and most free purpose of his will foreordained all the means thereunto.

Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his spirit, working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.

Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect on. So here's what we're saying. In eternity past, God in his sovereign and free pleasure chose a people for himself.

We could talk about this, but I am, I think you have to subscribe to double predestination, but I see one as an active part and another as a passive in the sense of like God chooses the elect God and then he chooses to pass over the non-elect rather than having to create unbelief in them or something.

He doesn't have to create unbelief, but from eternity past, he chose a people for himself, and he didn't just say, well, these people are going to make it somehow. He also ordained the means by which that they would come, which is the preaching of the gospel, and so as we're preaching, okay, here's what I also love about being a Calvinist, and that is you don't have to make up, like you don't have to make up what are we going to do for evangelism.

Are we going to, let's rent a helicopter, let's drop eggs out of the sky, you know, let's, you know what I'm saying, like you, I'm not against creativity, you know, but what I am saying is this, you don't have to make up weird ways.

You can just do what the Bible says. You can preach the gospel, and tracts are a great tool, I think, because sometimes you have a situation where you can't talk a lot, and you can give a tract, you know, I bought something at the hardware store earlier, and I was able to give this guy a tract.

I mean, you would say, I go back to this time and time again, someone say, well, I don't know if that's effective, okay, well, I can tell you this, and Alex already brought it up, but I can tell you this, I tell you what's not effective.

You ready? Doing nothing. That's right. Amen. You don't preach, you don't share the gospel, you don't pass out tracts. God ain't drawing people to himself. That's right. The way that he draws people is through the proclamation of the gospel.

That's right. I have a friend who.

Has a good phrase for that, that he says, well, I like the way I'm sharing the gospel better than.

The way you're not. Yeah, that's right. So this is another degree of Mike Stockwell, but my friend Randall Easter, who also knows Mike Stockwell, we joke, do you know Mike Stockwell? I do not know Mike Stockwell.

Okay, well, you have to have some connection. Yeah, you have a connection with me, but Randall came and preached on our evangelism conference this year, and he said, sow nothing, reap nothing, and I think that's just so true.

Okay, so what we're saying is, I don't have to make up weird ways. I don't have to give away a car. I don't have to drop eggs from the sky. I don't have to, you know, okay, we love people, we serve, all that's important, but like I don't have to think of weird ways to like, I'm going to t-shirt the community or something, you know, like I can just preach the gospel, share the gospel, pray, and trust God to work.

Right. Because God has ordained not only the end of the elect, but also the means, and I don't have, and also let me say this too, and there could be differences here in the script, I'm not sure, but I believe in what is known as the well-meant offer of the gospel, and meaning that you don't have to ask someone, like if they were to say, does God really want me to turn from my sins?

Like I don't have to be like, well, I guess if you're elect, you know, I'm like, no, He really does, and there really is, even though the atonement is particular, there really is a sufficiency in the death of Christ that could cover 10 million worlds, if you will, meaning I preach the gospel like, if you would really turn from your sins and put your faith in Christ,.

God really would save you. Right. Nothing is barring you from Christ but you. That's right. Right. God is not, particular redemption does not mean that God has set up a bar by which He does not allow sinners that want to repent to repent.

I want to come to Christ. There are none of those people. It's just like so often people will say, well, what about the poor innocent person in some unfound tribe somewhere? Well, the problem is there's not an innocent person anywhere.

That's the problem. That's why we have to get the gospel and access to the gospel to all the world. You know, just last night I was preaching in a meeting, and I was preaching from Romans 9, but I was preaching from the first five verses.

And, you know, we see a couple of people in Scripture who are willing to be separated from God for the sake of their people. In Exodus 32, we see that Moses says, you know, if you're going to destroy these people, then blot me out of your book as well.

And then there in Romans 9, we see that Paul says that he would be cut off from Christ for the sake of his people. And when we proclaim the gospel, Paul goes on in the very next chapter, and he says that if people are going to be saved, they're going to be saved by the preaching of Christ, by the word about Christ being proclaimed.

And so it's the only, you know, so often people do want to say, well, why do you preach if you believe that God's going to save you? He's going to save you. Well, like you said, Alan, He's going to save them through the preaching of the gospel, and nobody's getting saved without the preaching of the gospel.

And also this, and I.

Know these guys got their Bibles open, so I want to give them an opportunity, but also this, why do you preach? Because God told me to. Right. Like, it's not my responsibility in my brain to fit all this perfectly, you know, although I do think it is logically consistent and all that, but like some people, it's okay, I would say this way, it's okay if you're wrestling with this in your brain, you're wrestling with it in your heart, like how does all this fit together?

It's okay if you're wrestling with it so long as you're also like, yeah, but I got to preach because God told me to.

And if ultimately, and this is what I mentioned in my sermon last night, if ultimately what we are motivated by is the glory of God. What were you preaching last night? I'm preaching at a revival meeting this week.

You chose Romans 9 for a revival meeting? Need a revival of Statham Doctrine, that's what we need. And it is, and this is certainly not a Reformed church either, but I didn't preach from that part of, I only preached from those first five verses, but the point I was making last night was just about the fact that we need to be motivated and executing when it comes to evangelism.

We need to be taking the gospel to a lost world, and you know, when we think about that, and I told them last night, listen, your love for people will only get you so far when it comes to evangelism, but your love for God's kingdom and His glory will get you much further.

That's exactly what I was thinking. You try to guilt.

People into evangelism. It can kind of work sometimes, you know, but it's usually short-lived, but when your motivation for evangelism is the glory of God, you know, that's a much different thing, and that's not saying you have no love for people.

Of course you love people. Yes.

Paul loves the Jews. That's why he says what he says. We said to the people at.

The thing Saturday, we're here because we love you. All right, that's a good place for us to stop on this episode. We'll pick up this conversation next week with Gunnar and Alex and Eddie on the Rural Church Podcast.

See you then.