When Is It Ok to Leave Your Church? | Season 3 Episode 1

Point Taken

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00:00

All right. Boom, bop, pow. Welcome back to the

00:06

Point Taken Podcast. It is the only podcast. My name is Hunter.

00:11

I'm the host of this podcast. Over here to the right, we have Anna, last name redacted for privacy.

00:21

Anna, we love Anna. We love having Anna. First time back at the Point Taken Podcast. We have our brand new cast member we're very excited for.

00:30

And then right beside her, our stand in, his name is

00:35

Cecil. You might call him Cease. That's about all you need to know of Cecil.

00:42

Say hi to the people. How are you doing? Today, we're going to be talking about leaving the church.

00:51

What does that look like? When is that called for? When is it uncalled for?

00:59

What standards need to be met in your mind before you just say before it's okay to say, okay, let's go ahead and make an exodus.

01:09

Okay. But before we get to that, guys, let's do a little ice breaking warm up question.

01:15

What was the most difficult thing you had to do this week? Anna? Taking care of my six week old.

01:23

I wanted to throw him into a wall this week. Oh. I love him so much.

01:29

I mean, that's just so fast to already be. I mean, you come back to me when you have a six week old because what happened, it was a rough day.

01:38

He was only taking like 30 minute naps. Usually he takes like hour and a half to three hour naps and so I can get naps in and be productive.

01:45

He was taking 30 minute naps like every couple of hours. So I was getting really tired and cranky.

01:52

And then he peed on me twice. The second time he peed on me, he peed all down the wall. Oh, the same wall.

01:58

I'm like, dang it. And I'm like, you know what, Anna? No, you can't be mad at him. He's a baby.

02:04

He's incontinent. He cannot control anything. Baby? He's worthless. And then

02:09

I was changing his diaper and then he smiled at me and I was just like, I'm not mad anymore. But yeah, that was, it was hard.

02:16

That smile wasn't genuine. That smile was I'm playing you. No, but it's still precious. That was him trying to pee on you a third time.

02:23

He said, if I have, if I had an ounce more. I would pee all over you.

02:29

It would be over. It's tough. For me, probably just be,

02:37

I'm learning a new software for my senior project. So it's a CFD fluid analysis software.

02:48

CFDs. CFDs are so hard guys. You guys don't know what that is.

02:54

But the people who do know what that is, CFD, y 'all don't get it, but I get it.

03:04

Anyway, the hardest thing that I've had to do this week is put on these shoes. Easily by far the most difficult thing

03:14

I've had to do in the entire week, this seven day period is to put on this pair of shoes. I don't know if you guys know about this.

03:21

These are Vans and they're high. I don't know if this is considered high top. Kind of.

03:27

The top isn't exactly low. Okay. And putting these things on is a violent exercise of patience, tenacity, endurance, and will.

03:40

And that took, I'm not lying. That took a solid 10 minutes of my morning. That took a solid 10 minutes of my morning.

03:49

Thanks. They're brand new gifted to me by a dear friend. But yeah, it was.

03:55

Really? Yeah. You have a friend that's a deer? Well, he's a buck. My dear friend. Thanks, dad.

04:04

Thanks for joining us on this podcast, dad. But yeah, that was easily, I don't know what kind of weeks anybody who might be listening or watching this had, but it will not top the difficulty that I had putting on these shoes.

04:18

Big facts. Yeah. Big, big facts. The first time I put it on, I was in a full suit and it just didn't work out.

04:25

It was really difficult. But anyway, guys, let's go ahead and get right into it.

04:31

A conversation that is sure to be easier than putting these shoes on. Leaving the church.

04:37

All right. We hear it a lot. We said, oh, I left this church for this reason, left the church for that reason.

04:43

So we're talking about leaving a local body. Yeah. Yeah. Not leaving the church. Yeah. Just for clarification, the church is the church as in the church is the body of believers.

04:55

It's not a building. It's not, you know, one group of people. If you believe in Jesus Christ and you are born again believer, you are part of the church singular, the church.

05:07

So leaving the church is not really an option. All right. If you leave the church, then you're never really a part of it.

05:14

We're talking about your local body. You went forward, said, hey, I'm going to join.

05:21

I'm becoming a member. You know, that's a commitment. That's that addition into that, you know, community and that family.

05:30

And so what does it take for you to leave that and be correct for doing it?

05:39

What are our thoughts? Mike, you go.

05:47

Okay. So I would say the best way to tackle this would probably be common excuses, maybe.

05:55

So I would say one acceptable would be false doctrine. Oh, for sure.

06:01

If you go to a church that's speaking false doctrine and maybe you didn't realize or they didn't talk about it while you were like visiting or something.

06:10

Maybe that's an easy way to start. So before we before we continue, let's go ahead and to what extent that question.

06:17

Okay. So you go to a church, you're a member of the church. So we assume that you vetted this church before you just said, all right, here you go.

06:29

You know, teach my family, you know, because you're responsible for that. So you pull up to a church, you say, okay, so far, so good.

06:36

I'm liking it. Let's go ahead and plant some roots. Then all of a sudden they start spitting some heresy, false doctrine, and that's just not good.

06:45

So realistically, what is your next step from that point?

06:53

Because I mean, that is, I don't disagree, like, hey, false doctrine, that's a reason to leave a church, but it's leaving the church the first step.

07:02

I would say it's not necessarily the first step. I guess it would, you've already become a member.

07:12

If you've already become a member, then you do have a dutiful right to speak on it.

07:18

If I was visiting, I would just leave. Yeah. But so if I was a member,

07:23

I, you do have to verbalize probably what you view as false.

07:30

So Anna, what do you think? What do you think is owed to a church family?

07:37

So it's like, I belong to this church and they're spitting heresy. To what extent, like, what do

07:43

I owe them before I say bye, in your opinion? To speak the truth and to present the truth with scripture to the body.

07:55

Like with the heresy, it's like, look guys, this is not what scripture says and present that to them.

08:01

I think that's the first thing that you owe them. And then if they still decide to continue with the heresy, then it's like, you know, you've done really all that you can do.

08:12

And then to tell other people that you're close to, like your friends within the church and, you know, talk to them about it.

08:19

Like I would pull a couple of them to the side and just be like, hey, look, this is what they're saying. This isn't according to scripture.

08:26

And like, oh, kind of have their eyes open to it because then you could also save them from hearing that as well.

08:33

That would kind of be where I would go. That's true. And I think it's probably worthwhile to mention because if we say, yeah, as soon as they start spitting, you know, anti -facts, you know, as soon as they start spitting some things that are just anti -God, anti -biblical, if we just say, okay, well, let's go ahead and dip.

08:57

A lot of people will say just because they disagree with something that is anti.

09:03

So I think that's what Anna said is very, very essential is because if you don't confront the issue, then you might not ever learn that you were wrong because if you had the wrong opinion.

09:19

So I guess the first thing you would have to do if your church starts teaching something that is wrong and incorrect, is it actually anti -Bible or is it anti what you grew up with?

09:31

Or is it anti what is already rooted in your head? Because I've had some opinions in the past that, you know, when

09:38

I found out, oh, that was religion, it was like, oh, that was, you know, my

09:44

Sunday school teacher when I was seven, you know, which isn't much here, but, you know, things happen.

09:50

Right, right. That's exactly what was going to be my next thing I was going to say is we have to clarify what we mean by false doctrine.

09:57

So, you know, a preacher post, like, you know, preaching maybe he's like a post -millennial or something isn't false doctrine necessarily.

10:07

If it's not anti -Biblical, you have to be very clear of what's theology and what's doctrine.

10:13

What is, like, an acceptable opinion that may differ from yours and twisting scripture purposely.

10:23

Right. That is definitely, I agree, going to be our defining terms is if your pastor disagrees with your theology, that is not a reason to leave the church.

10:33

If your pastor disagrees with doctrine, well, I'd say, yeah, that's a reason.

10:39

You know, another big thing, your pastor making a mistake in handling a situation is not necessarily cause to leave a church.

10:50

You know, like, sometimes people just field the ball wrong. Sometimes people just, like, handle a situation.

10:57

It wasn't a good day for them. They handle it poorly. It is on them, you know, to, you know, maybe make things right or maybe come back humble, but that is not,

11:08

I wouldn't say that would be an example, but, I don't know, would be another common excuse because that would kind of be the second one is that the pastor said something mean or didn't field something well.

11:21

Well, you have my feelings. I would say one of the other ones, and this actually happened to my husband and I a handful of years ago, we actually thought about leaving this church.

11:33

I know. Can you believe it? It was because we did not agree, and, you know, we're, like, big money people.

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We save and, like, we handle money really well. Like, we want to be able to handle our money well so we can help others, and the way that the church was spending their money at the time did not reflect on how we thought it should be spent responsibly because we were always in the red, and my husband and I hate that.

11:59

Like, we hate debt. We don't want to have anything to do with it, but we understand when you have, like, a big or a large entity like this, you know, things happen, so we disagreed with how that happened, and we actually had a big discussion about it, and it was over a camping trip, and he's just, like, you know,

12:15

I disagree with that, but I'm like, yeah, but that's no reason for us to leave. Like, we can voice our opinion as a part of the family of our local body and be like, hey, these are our concerns with this, and I was like, and then if they vote against us, they vote against us.

12:31

Like, our opinion was heard, and not everyone's going to have the same opinion. You know how money is with, like, any type of relationship anyway, but not everyone's going to have the same opinion, but that was, like, a personal, you know, example, but that's why a lot of people will choose to leave, or they think someone didn't handle something.

12:50

No, that's a really good one because being good stewards is very important, and so it's like,

12:57

I feel like I do agree with you in that, and that that wasn't a reason to leave, but, but, and yeah, but not even that, but being a church, being bad stewards with the money to an extent, depending on the way that they're doing that,

13:16

I think is a reason to leave. Absolutely, absolutely. There's a line there. Because I think that you guys were on the right track, and at least questioning it, and at least saying, hmm, should we ask that question?

13:28

You know, a lot of people are afraid to even mention things like that. It's like, oh, it's taboo. It's like, always question, always confront, and always say, is the church doing right?

13:38

You know, people being too quiet about whether or not the church is acting correctly is why a lot of church leaders have gotten away with way too much.

13:46

Yeah, and we weren't buying, like, the church wasn't buying, like, jets or anything, you know, like, anything like that. It was just, like, a matter of opinion.

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I would prefer that we spend the money elsewhere because this would, in turn, give us more money and savings.

13:59

It was about being, like, responsible. It wasn't, like, a question of whether it was ethical or, you know, like, moral or whatever, but yeah, like, if your church isn't spending its money properly, like, if it's, you know, there's so many different ways that they could be doing that.

14:14

If it's paying out its pastor instead of paying off its debt or paying, you know, investing in missions, then that's a reason, in my opinion, because at the end of the day,

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I can guess that the issue with this church is that they were investing, instead of paying off debt, they were investing in mission or they were investing in this or that and they were doing something, just being extra, like, trying to do things, you know, but if a church is paying out their pastor and paying out their staff and, you know, that pastor's driving the fancy car and all that and, you know, that's coming straight from the plate, that's not necessarily being a good steward, in my opinion, you know, so that's an interesting one

14:59

I hadn't even thought of. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's always a bad sign when the pastor is, like, in the top 10 percentile of income in the church.

15:07

It's like, yeah, that's way too high. He should be right in the average. Yeah, because when

15:13

I throw my money in the plate, I understand that a portion of that is going to go to staff, because that's how it works.

15:21

That's what motivates me to give more, because we know our staff and we love them. Yeah, and it's like,

15:27

I want to take care of my family. I want our family to be taken care of, especially with, you know, the way the world is. It's like, we're all struggling, but I want to make sure, because I love them.

15:36

Yeah, and like, what else are we supposed to do? Have the government pay them? Absolutely not.

15:41

Zero percent chance do I want government and church to be mixed like that. Right. So it's like, obviously, they're going to be getting paid by the people, and a whole lot of people who don't go to church hate that.

15:53

They're like, oh, it's just a scam for money. No, it's just a scam to keep the freaking government out of our church and mandating what we can and cannot worship, because the second they start paying our pastors is the second they start telling our pastors what they can and cannot say.

16:07

It's like, so yeah, we pay our pastors from the plate. But if I'm going to guess that 20 percent of what

16:15

I give goes to the pastor's pocket, that's probably a bad sign. Like, we want to see, and that's what is important about a congregational led church, is because you can see where those pennies go.

16:28

You vote on what is paid for. Like, hey, guys, we're going to, you know, buy this piece of land and we're going to build this for outreach.

16:35

Or hey, we're going to be sending this team over here. It's like, this is where your money is going to go, and you know part of it is going to be allocated to staff.

16:43

That's good. And you know the rest of it is going to be allocated to bills and lighting, ministry.

16:49

That's how it's supposed to be. But if I'm putting money in the plate and sacrificing supposedly for God, but it's being patted, you know, being scooped by the pastor, that's not a good sign.

17:07

So I could think of, here's another big one where people leave, dispute between members.

17:16

Oh yeah. That's another big reason to leave, is dispute among members.

17:24

So I guess that's a good one to tackle. That's a great one to tackle, and I think...

17:29

I've seen it within this church. Yeah, and I've got a hot take on that. Okay. A lot of the time, it's a failure of the church.

17:41

Oh, not even the person. Now, it's also a failure of the person, but it's a failure of the church.

17:47

So let's look at this biblically. Okay, if I were to ask the two of you, let's say that me and our camera guy,

17:56

Seth, or our, you know, our technical guy, Lowell, let's say that the three of us get in a big old fight, and I'm just...

18:06

I just can't... like, we don't see eye to eye, you know, there's a lot of bitterness, there's a lot of anger between the three of us.

18:15

Biblically, what would you guys advise me to do? Um, so do you have a problem with them, or they have a problem with you either way?

18:26

Vice versa. Vice versa. Talk about it.

18:32

Doesn't work. Mediator. Doesn't work. Correct. I was about to say, that's according to scripture.

18:38

Correct. What Cecil is quoting is Matthew, and we're talking about if you have a problem with somebody, right, you go and speak to them.

18:47

Mano y mano. That's step number one. There are three steps, by the way. Step number one, you go up and talk to them.

18:53

So I go up, and I'll talk to Lowell, and I'll say, Lowell, you know, I do not like the way that you did this, and this is how it made me feel, whatever.

19:02

Let's go ahead and squash this beef. Lowell says, screw you,

19:07

Hunter. Your mom is fat, and I don't like you. Then I'll say, okay.

19:15

Lowell's laughing like, Lowell would never say that. He would come up with something more articulate.

19:20

I would never get in a fight with Lowell, because I would just be in the wrong. But let's say he did that, then

19:28

I would leave, and I would grab, you know, Anna, and I would say, okay, now

19:34

I'd go to Lowell again, and say, hey, you know, we're going to bring a mediator into this, and we're going to talk about it. We are going to squash this beef.

19:41

Lowell says, her mom's fat. I don't like either of you. No. I was like, okay.

19:48

Then we're going to bring it before the church, and that's when we get the big dogs in. We say, okay, we're going to present it to the church.

19:55

Here's the beef, the aforementioned beef. We tried to squash it mano a mano.

20:01

We tried to squash it with a mediator. He's, you know, insulted both of our mothers by that point multiple times.

20:10

It's just not working out. What do you have to say, Lowell? And then Lowell says, every mother in this congregation is overweight.

20:23

He's not a big fan of it. Then the church says, bye. That's the step.

20:29

That is the step. Jesus said, cut the thorn from the grapevine.

20:35

That thing is going to strangle your fruit, okay? He's saying, we get rid of, and how the people would say it today, if this were on TikTok, we'd say, cut the toxic people out of your life.

20:49

For your own mental health. For your own mental health. That's what Jesus said. I mean, in more or less words, he said, cut them out.

20:58

Because this person, you know, obviously has an issue with your mom, your mom, and your mom. So it's like, goodbye.

21:04

Because at that point, it's a poison. So sometimes I feel, this is not every time.

21:10

It's not even close to every time. But sometimes I feel that people have beef with each other and then just decide to leave.

21:19

Because they don't want to confront the issue. But I'll say the time when I said, sometimes it's the church's fault, it's because the church won't confront it.

21:27

You try and get a mediator and they say, oh, I don't want to, that's not my business. Like, I don't want to be involved in that. Yeah. That's not my business, but tell me all about it because I'm going to go home and I'm going to tell my friends and then

21:38

I'm going to come over here and say like, oh, did you hear about, you know, Cease and Seth? You know, it was like, this whack is crazy.

21:45

I was like, you want to gossip about it more than you want to insert yourself and mediate. Absolutely.

21:50

Because I don't know if it's either fear or ignorance of your responsibility, but I can be completely uninvolved and yet it is still my responsibility when one brother comes up to me and says, bro,

22:01

I've got this beef. I can't squash it. Mediate. Honestly, that's great what you just did because your example was you,

22:09

Lowell and Seth. And then when you were talking about your rumor that you were spreading, it was me and Seth. Which is ironically true that that's how accurate things you hear are.

22:22

People don't know anything that happens once you're told. It's a telephone game, man. Yeah, it really is.

22:27

Honestly, that was kind of ironically funny. And as a side point, I think it's really funny how the telephone game works.

22:35

And brother Jeff was talking about how the original transcripts from scripture was passed down over thousands of years.

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And it's been the same thing, said the exact same thing over time for all that time. But I can't even remember who

22:51

I just said was me. Exactly. Thank God that Henry wasn't told to write the Bible. Oh my gosh, that would have been hearing some nonsense.

23:00

Have you ever tried to? Mike, write the Bible? Yeah. No, like one time I was tasked with writing

23:08

Colossians 3 in pen with absolutely no mistakes.

23:13

Oh, wow. Were you like looking at it and just? Yes. Yeah. I'm not kidding.

23:19

Header Colossians. Crap. No, I'm not kidding. It probably took me seven or eight tries.

23:25

It is actually so hard because you just like start reading it and writing and you start getting careless.

23:31

Even though you think you're not. And once you mess up, you have to, you know, burn everything or just throw it away.

23:36

Who made you do that? Uh, school or your dad? School. OK, that's cool.

23:43

Yeah, it was actually much more difficult than you think. Yeah. Incredibly difficult not to make a simple mistake. Like punctuation.

23:49

Yeah. Yeah. Anything. Because if one itty bitty scribble or miswrite of a letter or something, you have to throw it all away.

23:57

Yeah. Well, anyway. That would drive me insane. So back to beef, back to leaving the church over beef.

24:06

Um, what are you thinking? So when it comes to what beef is worth leaving over.

24:16

Oh, yeah. What beef is worth leaving over. I, I want to say there's a good example or a good reason that interference between two members should lead to an exit of one of them.

24:35

Other than their pride is too high and poor leadership is going to be at fault in one or both of those cases.

24:44

It's most likely going to be the issue. Um, you know, it always talks about, um, there's that, like, church traditional oral thing of, uh,

24:57

John, uh, post Pat most post everything living in Ephesus as like a 90 something year old man.

25:05

Um, and he would sleep through their services and stuff. He was just tired and old and they would wake him up to settle disputes to see which one he would agree with.

25:15

Yeah. They, you know, they always said that he would roll over and be like, just love each other and roll back over and go back to sleep.

25:22

And honestly, like, yeah, that it's what that really means is be humble.

25:27

You know, it's like, what's more important? Putting each other first. Right. Sacrificing your own nonsense.

25:32

Exactly. Do nothing out of rivalry or conceit. You know, it's that type of mindset that will be the answer to all these beefs, which is the correct way in which won't lead to an exit, which won't lead to further issues.

25:47

Yeah. Wow. Um, what, is there any other like big common reasons why people leave other than like the fog machine malfunctioned one

25:59

Sunday or something? You have, you, yeah, I mean, you do. People will leave over music. That's a big one.

26:05

Yes. Yeah. And that's a big one. Oh, um, nobody reached out to me.

26:12

Oh yeah. Nobody said hi when I came in the door. That's a big visitor one. Um, when talking about members.

26:18

It's like, cause you, these people, they're wanting to walk into the church with some guy in a suit at the front door.

26:23

It's like, ah, how are you doing? So good to see you. It's like, hey bro, like when you go,

26:31

I don't know how some of y 'all's families are. When you go to like a family event and everybody's gathered there, does everybody stop what they're doing when you walk in the door?

26:41

I mean, some families are some, but it's like mine. No. It's like, oh, hey, what's up? You know, cool.

26:47

Or you go and you talk to your family and then they say, oh, hey, welcome. Yeah. But I was just like, if you expect like this much, like the red carpet and it was like, but, and then

26:58

I'll say, well, I wanted was a high and a welcome. I was like, well, I don't,

27:03

I don't go give us a Yelp review. I was like this, it's not like we're, we're, we're not trying to earn your business.

27:11

Like we're, we're not here trying to earn your business. We're here trying to help give you love, give you accountability, give like, and we're trying to be the church and like, we will be your family and we want you here.

27:24

And we like, it's all that. But like to complain that we don't have a door greeter every

27:29

Sunday. Honestly, extra. Yeah. So like my next door heard when you talking about that, because those people who's like, and yeah, our pastor makes fun of them all the time, but the, how's your children, children's program type of people.

27:46

Yeah. They're like, we're not here to serve. Yeah. Like, what can you offer? We're here to be served and we want a country club, you know?

27:54

We want like a daycare. The five dollar star experience. What can you offer me?

28:00

Not what can I offer you? The correct is what ministries do y 'all currently have that I can help in?

28:06

Or do y 'all need a ministry started with a skill and talent that I've been given? Yeah. Do you want to know how you have a healthy mindset when looking for a new church?

28:15

When you show up to a church and they don't have a door, door greeter, the unhealthy mindset would be, why don't they have a door greeter?

28:21

This is not the church for me. The healthy mindset would be, they don't have a door greeter. Maybe that's a way that I can help this church.

28:28

I can show up and I can say, Hey, I can greet people at the door. There's a way to serve on a

28:34

Sunday morning. Which is why we have two door greeters everywhere. Cause like brother Al, brother

28:40

Al has never been told to do anything. He's never been asked.

28:45

He's always handing out the sermon notes. He says hi to like every single person.

28:51

I see him do that. He pulled up. He saw that that's not something we do. And he said, okay, I got it. Literally. He just started doing it.

28:57

He didn't complain and say, Oh, this church. He showed up and he started doing it.

29:06

This is a place that I can serve you. Yeah. Because his mind was not, how can I be served as how can

29:11

I serve? And if that's not your mindset in a church, you have no business in complaining and leaving one because it's like, well, have you tried to better it?

29:20

No. Then you're just going to go and worsen your next church too. I don't know what to tell you, dude.

29:31

So on music. Yeah. On music. So, okay.

29:37

I see both sides here, but one is definitely stronger than the other in my mind.

29:43

Um, you have the idea that, uh, emotional worship helps me, emotional music helps me connect with God more.

29:54

And that's a fun thought, but it's not true. It just is not true.

30:00

Um, it may make you feel like you should worship when they sound really good.

30:06

And, and it does say in the Bible that you should try to be good at music. If you're going to do it for worship.

30:12

You should be good at it. Um, counterpoint. Worship isn't always singing and it is something from the heart.

30:23

So I, I suck praise and worship, right? I suck at singing, but it affects my ability to worship zero percent, but I do not go on stage and do it because it sounds bad and it would be a distraction to people to hear a dying cat.

30:37

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Get off the stage. I cannot tell you how many times that's happened before where somebody granted, you know, kudos to getting up on stage and do whatever.

30:48

I'm like, honey, just, I'm like, I can't, I can't focus on anything else.

30:54

We need help in the nursery. It's their turn to sing. It's like they're in the second verse of their song.

31:01

Just like emergency, emergency. We need you to take out the trash. Please. It's overflowing.

31:07

There's no one else. It's so bad. But I mean, like, and I'll, I'll speak,

31:12

I'll speak to this. Yeah. Since you lead worship on occasion. This is what

31:18

I'll say as opposed to the emotional response and stuff. I am careful not to demonize the emotional response.

31:27

And here's why. Because music in and of itself is a language.

31:33

Music in and of itself. Music was made by God. Watch this. Watch this. Genesis. We're looking at Cain.

31:40

What did Cain do after he clapped Abel? He built cities. After he killed

31:46

Abel and all that happened and he got his little brand and he moved on. He was a city builder.

31:52

And you look by, I, I'm pulling this number out of a hat. I don't remember. Maybe the seventh generation.

31:59

Maybe, maybe the seventh generation of people. We already had instrument makers.

32:06

People who may now to make an instrument. You need to understand music very well.

32:14

Like there's not, you're not accidentally. Yeah. Like, unless you're talking maybe percussion.

32:20

Yeah. You're not making an instrument accidentally. Now there are some that you can just, you know, get away with.

32:27

Woodwind single note things that you can get away with making the stuff out of a single note. But to make a full -fledged instrument, that's not a uneducated.

32:37

You have to get the pitch and like acoustic, like all of that. So the question here is how is it that you can understand music?

32:45

And if you know anything about music and what it does, it's a lot.

32:51

So how is it that you go from scratch ground zero all the way up to, and I'm saying it's generous to say it made it all the way to seven generations, but to making an instrument in the seventh generation of humankind.

33:03

Well, the same way that Cain, you know, the third, he was the older brother, right?

33:10

Yes, I can't even remember. I think he was even not third or fourth human being ever to exist, had the capacity to build a city and to like develop construction and develop and all that.

33:24

It goes to show that God, Adam and Eve weren't just frolicking through flowers while they were walking through the

33:30

Garden of Eden. God was telling them lots of things like, here's how this works.

33:35

Here's how this works. This is what this is. I strongly believe music was a part of that. And that's what

33:42

I go off on is that because very soon after the creation of mankind, people were building instruments.

33:48

And to do that, you have to have a pretty solid understanding of what that means to go from scratch to building that.

33:56

So you look at that and you also look at the effects of creation to music. You can play music to a plant and get reactions from the plant.

34:05

You don't do that from talking to it in any language. You do that from playing. You don't have to have words at all.

34:12

It is simply the sound of music doing the notes correct way can make a plant respond.

34:19

Music is something that God gave and created and something that God responds to because he's to sing and praise to God and to glorify him.

34:29

It's something that he does over us. I mean, so when we say, you know, you're not looking for the emotional response.

34:37

That's true. But you also should be trying to invoke it. You also should be trying to use music the way that God made it because it invokes response.

34:47

That's the point of music. If you listen to a song and you feel you don't feel and you don't have a response given to it, then there's either there's something there's a disconnect.

34:57

That music is not being used the way it's supposed to. So while you should not need or rely correct or rely on that, you should be able to worship to his point without that there should be able to be somebody on the stage or somebody in a house, you know, because we're not always going to get the pleasure of being on a stage and stuff.

35:20

There's going to be a time if somebody's just going to sing, I love you,

35:25

Lord, and they might sound a little off and there's not an orchestra in the back and there's not a choir and you should be able to praise

35:32

God wholly and fully. But we don't need to run away from the setting and the full effect the music can bring and should bring, you know, as far as doing it to the best of our ability.

35:52

Agreed. Wholeheartedly agreed. As well said. Thank you so much, dude. I've been forming that argument for a while.

35:58

Been thinking about that for a bit. But yeah, leaving the church over music is whack.

36:03

I let me just say this. All that said, I cannot.

36:10

And please, if you can, just right here in my mind right now, I cannot think of a reason we're leaving the church due to music is ever justified.

36:20

Even even if you're about to say even if you're about to say they say the word evolution and he'll say anything like that, even though I wasn't going to say that,

36:29

I wasn't going that was hard for me, but I wasn't going to say that. But is it

36:37

Mike Winger? He's a YouTuber. He's a pastor. He does like 20 questions like every

36:43

Friday, whatever. Look him up. He's awesome. But he did a video within like the last six months to a year on this one church who sang was singing this worship song on a

36:55

Sunday morning, and they replaced it with she instead of he like talking about God.

37:01

And then there was something else. It was like Ariana Grande. It was talking about like Mother Nature and stuff and like singing the song of Mother.

37:08

It was like something beyond. I'm like, that would for me would be a reason to leave the church because it's like heresy within the song.

37:16

OK, so that would be two things for me. One, a hundred percent chance they have doctrine issues.

37:22

So that would go to the music problem. But usually the music is before the preaching.

37:30

But the music is allowed. Well, that's true. We're talking about membership here. So to leave a church, you should already see that doctrine.

37:37

But the music will sometimes tell you the doctrine of the church. And then also,

37:43

I will say the same thing. The King James Bible worship song. Yeah, same thing.

37:49

That's a doctrine issue. It's good enough for me. Yeah, yeah. It talks about if it's good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me.

37:54

It's like, how illogical can you be? That's something to talk to your pastor before you leave.

38:00

Like, hey, and give that chance. Because like Anna said earlier, that is something that is what you owe.

38:05

If you are a member, you owe it to at least say, hey, you're not spitting truth here.

38:11

Yeah, but what if you are a new believer as well as a new member into the church?

38:16

And you just you're just ignorant, like you just don't know. I would tell that person that Paul didn't speak 1611

38:22

English. So if it's not good enough for Paul, because he didn't know what the term

38:28

English meant, because it wasn't a freaking language yet. Facts, dude. But yeah, because it doesn't matter.

38:36

Unfortunately, this was unfortunate. It is unfortunate to be a baby Christian in a church that is not standing strong biblically.

38:46

Well, and one thing too is as a believer, even to this day, some things that our pastors preach, it's not that I doubt them, but I question.

39:00

Absolutely. And it's like, question everything, no matter what. Like, especially as a new believer, question everything.

39:06

There should never be a time where you look at a pastor. You're not going to know everything. And just assume that everything they say will be right.

39:13

Yeah, because there are some, like I said, there are some things that I'm just like, ah, I don't really know. And so I've gone and looked it up.

39:18

And then I've talked to other people. I've asked other wise people about a particular thing.

39:24

And I'm like, what is the biblical stance on that? And they'll tell me. And I'm like, okay. If you're a pastor and backing it up by scripture, then.

39:31

Right. Exactly. Well, just like Paul says, I cannot remember what church he says.

39:37

He goes, if anybody, I don't care if it's an angel from heaven, comes down and tells you something that's contrary to this book.

39:44

Is it Galatians? Then don't even. Was it Galatia? Because we. Maybe Galatia, because they had a lot of issues with false teachers.

39:52

I think they had a lot of issues with false teachers in general. So it may have been that he was double downing on that.

39:59

But another thing, another point on that would be the consequences that Jesus explains for people who lead people astray on purpose.

40:13

It's very tough. It's very scary. It's very scary. But, yeah, to be a new believer in a church that's off biblically is.

40:23

I could see it being extremely hard to detect for that new believer and being a very tough situation to find yourself in.

40:30

But I'll even say this because of what you said. I have a very difficult time with that one song.

40:38

What's it called? So will I. So will I. Love that song. Oh, like. Beautiful song.

40:44

But the mountains worship. So alive like that day. Compromising like that.

40:52

It annoys me to my very soul because the cowardice that you have to have to.

41:00

Sit there and you are a Christian artist and you're doing this to glorify God, but you will compromise your beliefs and switch to their side because of the pressure, whatever.

41:11

But to say evolving in pursuit of what you said that is compromising and that if you've ever heard

41:19

God, yeah, evolution is right, but so is creation. God made evolution. No, he didn't.

41:25

They can't both. They can't coexist. Correct. No, he didn't. He did not. Adaptation.

41:32

Right. So it's like that the only evolution that is a real societal evolution in that we once were, you know, didn't have central heating and air.

41:44

Now we do. You know, we once didn't have these laws and these rules. Hey, now we do.

41:50

That is evolution in that we were once at this place. And over time, we have grown to be at another place because of stockpiling of information and teaching passed down through generations.

42:00

That's obvious. That's not up for debate. That's not a well, some people believe in this. Some people don't.

42:05

If you think that people were driving Teslas in 500 BC, you have a mental issue and you need to be speaking to somebody.

42:14

That's basic knowledge. But there is no the creatures evolving in pursuit of what you said.

42:21

No, they didn't. No, they didn't. So I was like that that that upsets me.

42:26

And if a church is unwilling to and if they're singing that and teaching that and they're unwilling to hear that, then

42:33

I have that's where I have a big trouble. Like because I'm not singing that.

42:39

Yeah. Zero percent of my saying that to my God and saying I'm compromising. I'm going with the flow.

42:45

I'm letting them lie. And I'm all about it. So to anybody who may not understand that five seconds,

42:54

I can explain to you why evolution cannot coincide with the Bible. It's just two verses.

43:01

Matthew 5, 12 and well, Matthew 5, 12 and Genesis 131.

43:11

So a system like evolution only works based on the death of billions of creatures to to before humans were on Earth.

43:24

And the idea that Matthew 5, 12 death entered the world only post -Adamic sin.

43:31

Post the sin and fall of Adam. So how do you have a system built upon the death of species when death can only start to enter the equation post the fall of humankind?

43:46

And at the end of creation, 131 Genesis, God says it is good.

43:53

It was all perfect at this point. 5, 12, the fall death enters.

44:00

So evolution cannot have started. It's all good. You don't have to learn to grow gills. You don't have to.

44:05

It's like, yeah, correct, correct. So nothing evolved in pursuit of what he said.

44:12

He said it and they were like God didn't have to make something that had a loading bar underneath it.

44:19

It's like, OK, I'm going to make this penguin, but it's buffering like it.

44:24

You're going to be a penguin in a couple of million years. That's a fact. But I can't do it now. And now that's the only thing

44:32

God waited on is dispersing certain information dispensation. No, because we know death started happening, you know, and then we have chronological genealogies.

44:43

So we just don't have the 800 million years built in that timeline. Thanks. All right, guys, that's that's it for today's podcast.

44:54

We're talking about leaving the church. You know, what's it going to take?

45:02

How we got here. Like, how did we get here? You know, what's it going to take for you to just get out of there?

45:07

Right. If we missed anything, you guys like, hey, what about this? What about in this situation? Let us know.

45:13

We got listen point taken at gmail dot com. Send us an email. Listen point taken at gmail dot com.

45:18

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45:25

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45:31

You know, my pastor cheated on his wife. Do we? What do we say about this? Yeah. Let us on that note.

45:42

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45:52

What do you like? What do you not like? Just drop it in there. But until then, deuces.