Seminaries and Apologetics

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a

Thursday afternoon a little bit delayed in getting back to the dividing line thanks to something called a virus, but We are here and good to be back.

I do not believe it was a virus that I caught while traveling I think it was actually waiting for me when

I got home and My my lovely daughter provided to me right before her high school graduation

But I still still made it somehow barely and things falling apart in there. Mr.

Pierce That looks pretty silly actually, but I've turned the camera around so people can see how odd you look but Hey, when you've got to wear all these different head.

Hey You had to be the fancy schmancy, man Yeah anyway, and I think it just was that For some reason the jet lag this time last night was the first night

I slept more than four and a half hours since I got home I would I would sleep and then I'd wake up and I was it no more sleep after that and it just wore me down and so anyways, we're back now and other than the travel itself, which this time was

Really really not something to to write home about not enjoyable Other than the the travel itself the time in the

United Kingdom was wonderful Had a very interesting time on Revelation TV One of the things that was interesting about being on Revelation TV was that I had four monitors in front of me and they have two channels and For the first half hour

We were on the two channels and I should have noticed as I found out about later But then halfway through one of the channels disappeared.

In fact, we got a tape of it I'm in the middle of a sentence it just cuts out and says if you'd like to watch the rest of the program tuned to channel blah blah blah and So that that was odd, but then

I noticed that what I was seeing on the other channel made me go hmm Because the entire second hour of the program

I'm watching Benny Hinn On the other channel blowing people over and doing his normal shenanigans, and I'm sitting here discussing predestination election answering all the common questions phone calls emails all the common objections the

Hawaiian Yards and I'm looking down seeing Benny Hinn I Don't know.

There was just a very strange conjugation of Conjunction of having Benny Hinn down there and then

I'm likewise at the same time attempting to discuss I don't know second Peter three nine or something like that.

It was interesting interesting experience. No toys about it, but Getting there was fun too because we had to go through the middle of London.

I remember I get there I don't have any luggage. They lost my luggage didn't my luggage for two days, so We have to go to Tesco and brother

Roger takes this and of course going over We had two two -year -olds in the row right in front of me one of whom had an earache

So no sleep zero sleep not not a bit of sleep all the way to to the

United Kingdom So I'm I'm zoning I've been I was the airport forever because you have to fill out the lost luggage stuff and all that kind of thing and So we go to Tesco we buy shirt and other necessities shall we say and Then to get there you gotta go all the way through the middle of London We didn't want to go on the m25 which is the outer circle thing because it's a parking lot that time of day

So we have to go through London and everybody over there has sat nav satellite navigation you know

Tom Tom you know that type of thing and Every car I passed had had it in it because given the way

London's laid out that would make sense I'd love to have sat nav. I mean, I'm a really a gadget geek type guy

I live in Phoenix who in the world needs satellite navigation Phoenix this place is laid out as a grid.

You can't get lost here So it would be totally worthless, but in London It was great, and he had three different voices that he could put it on he could put mr.

T turn right here fool and then he had Yoda and Then you had

John Cleese of the Monty Python fame now that one was funny That that was that was hilarious.

I couldn't Couldn't help but sit there and think how long did that man sit in a studio

Recording every possible thing you could ever need to say especially realize you're in London You're going through all these roundabouts and these roundabouts can have three four five different exits on these one roundabouts

So there's all these things that this thing has to be able to say that he had to record It was it was really hilarious and hit the button once where he gave an introduction to himself and he said and thank you very much for choosing me because I really needed the money and It's really good.

Oh by the way. What are we gonna do our Scottish? dividing line Because we didn't get a chance to do that so I brought my accent with me and so next time dude.

Maybe next time I Was gonna say we'd probably all of a sudden have an instant equipment failure in the other room yeah,

I I Did it was funny though because once once again, you know finished

TV stuff and when it flew up to Edinburgh and then

I ministered at larbert baptist church and larbert which is in Falkirk, which is between Edinburgh and Glasgow and The the pastor

Ken Blakely is Irish his whole family is Irish, and so I learned to use the term we a lot

I Would take a wee little cup of whatever a wee little cup of milk or a wee little cup of coffee or whatever and It was just constantly we this and it was it was very funny

But anyway, we had a good time there in and larbert and then in Glasgow, and I actually went into Glasgow twice on my own

Which you know little old ladies can do but hey I I did my own and It was you can walk everywhere if you need to it's not like Phoenix believe you me

Not 98 degrees or anything like that outside, but it was it was enjoyable, but the trip back was Well, I don't

I don't want to talk about the trip back So anyhow we are home, and we are back and the next big thing on the on the public

Listing is the cruise in June Some of you going cruising June your cruises in October yes our cruises in October But we're doing a cruise in in June where I'm going to be speaking.

I've been asked along with the RC Sproul to speak on D. James Kennedy's cruise and So we're going to be doing that in just a matter of weeks and so toward the end of June There's going to be a dividing line blank spot in the archives as well

Because I well I suppose it's possible I've been told this this ship is just totally geeked out and So you know

I suppose it's possible, but it would be exceptionally expensive. I'm sure To to the dividing line from from out where we're gonna be in the

Pacific so anyway Yeah somebody somebody in channel just said they'd tune in for a 2 a .m..

Scottish dividing line well. Thank you Thank you ever so much That's very very kind of you just the support

I get you know From all my friends and and the people who love me. It's it's great, but anyway

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number I have Shabir Ali all queued up and ready to go and take your phone calls as well

And what let's see it's it's only it's only a little after midnight in in London right now So you know

I don't know why we don't have so many Well, you know we do have our one London caller And he has said that he's up at midnight 1 a .m..

The morning to call in so Maybe maybe some more of my friends from up there and a lot of it will call in maybe some of those gentlemen who join

Me and wearing their keylets They'll they'll call in and they'll demonstrate that That it didn't hurt my preaching at all that it's all went just fine.

You're looking somewhat skeptical mr. Pierce and in fact you're looking like you want me to go the first caller yes

Put him on the air stop talking about that stuff for you Yes, indeed, that's that's okay all righty.

Let's go ahead and take our first phone caller. Let's talk with Aaron hi Aaron How you doing good doctor right?

Thanks for taking my call. It's my pleasure welcome back to the state It's good jealous of you.

I got it got admit getting a chance to wander aimlessly aimlessly through John Knox's house on high streets in Edinburgh and To press press all the buttons and listen to The dialogues they have recorded and and all sorts of fun stuff like that is quite enjoyable

There's no no two ways about it I've been there, and I would love to go back so glad to have you back.

I just had a question for you I am I'm a Lay servant of Jesus Christ, and I serve as an elder at my church and And I'm not and don't have any seminary training, but if have done a lot of self -study

And over the last several years have have really felt drawn to Doing some formal study particularly in apologetics

Mainly just for you know strengthening my own my own ministry at my my local church

But as I'm I'm here in Central, California, and as I'm you know looking at balancing the the demands of a of a graduate program

With my current career and family and whatnot You know

I'm looking at some different options from some different different universities

And as I'm looking at these my question really has to do with I Have I'm very reformed in my theology and my soteriology and I'm Been looking at different apologetic methods or approaches

You know I as I sort of started on this it was mainly an evidentialist type of Type of approach that that I was exposed to but the more

I've studied it. I really see how a presuppositional dovetails very nicely

With with a kind of reformed theology I'm just wondering as I'm looking at schools and looking at programs

From in your opinion, how important is it to To have to go through a program that that is explicitly and overtly reformed

You know in in the field of apologetics is it does it make much of a difference. Do you think or?

well Obviously it makes a very large difference as to what subjects going to be covered, and how they're going to be covered

I did not have that option myself as far as Seminaries that were available to me when you're when you're

Especially as I was very young and don't have basically any money at all and you already have a family and children you you make do with what's available to you and and the irony was that The only the only thing at the time in in Phoenix, Arizona was fuller theological seminaries extension.

That was it and Yet when I took apologetics, there was only one class

I could I could take but when I took the apologetics class in the fuller extension, it was taught by a presbyterian from Southern, California and Some of the some of the books we had to read included the poem say by Pascal and Schaeffer's works and Things like that and and I I remember that I too as far as you know at that time

All I knew was you you go to the bookstore you pick up some books on apologetics And it's gonna be folks like Norman Geisler spouting

Aquinas and things like that, and that's just that's just all you you've really run into Especially at that time there there wasn't you know

Van Til was out there, but no one understood what he was saying and Bonson Bonson was just getting ready to well

Bonson had just debated Stein So there were some folks that were starting to figure these things out

But anyway, I remember one day this this professor and everybody else was was really not enjoying the class

They they just weren't getting what he was trying to say and and I remember sitting there one day and he he says some long lines of Aquinas proved the wrong

God and I you know The only proofs I had ever heard of were the cosmological teleological blah blah blah blah and so on What what is he talking about so I was really trying to tune in on this guy and the reading assignments

Thankfully really started to put two and two together for me at that time And that was important in really embracing all of Reformed theology as a whole so it was that apologetics class

It eventually was one of my one of my favorites because it did illustrate these things that was the only one

I had That actually came from a presuppositional perspective and and had a professor who would be

Reformed in his in his theology so it was important to be able to study those things, but especially in apologetics

You know, I'm awful glad that that I had to sort of get hands -on practice in seminary for apologetics

I mean, I'll never forget in in 89 when I was on the air with Robert Funk on a local secular station

Where the Jesus seminar had just come out. I just graduated in college or a seminary the

GS seminar Yeah that was my last semester one of the two but the GS seminar just come out and said Jesus never said he was returning so he's not and I was

I got to be on the air with with Funk and and Here I was able to you know some of the books.

I just read was like Gerhard von Roth's commentary in Deuteronomy now I mean, that's if anyone knows

Commentaries, this is not your conservative commentary, you know, but I had been a class at Fuller the professor had stood up He held this book up.

He said, you know what? This is the best English commentary on the book of Deuteronomy and we had to write reviews of them and I read this thing and I You know and I read it carefully

I marked it still in my library today and we had to write our positives and negatives and our reviews and the positive was this book has a wonderful binding and We moved on to the negatives and everything was negative now

I got a 98 on the review because I had clearly read it Interacted with it got a high score in the class.

You could do that back then I'm not sure that you could do that today in that particular context, but here I am on the air with with Robert Funk And I've this is the stuff

I've been reading, you know I mean, I'm very familiar with where these these people are coming from. I've been exposed to it and And So it helped me in that way.

It wasn't necessarily enjoyable in any way to go through that I had a friend who went through a couple years after I did in the same stuff and I remember him coming by my house and almost in tears that at the the mockery of sound

Orthodox teaching that had just taken place in some of the classes, but you know in essence what

I'm saying is seminary is what you make of it and I It would be wonderful and and and great to sit around with with everybody who agrees with you and and Hear the angels singing, but it's not necessary to actually getting a good education.

I mean There are some places that are so compromised. You can't even start to go there And in many of those places today will not really even allow you to say what you need to say and to think what you need to think and to question the things you need to question but if you can

You know The other thing I would say though especially given where you are and I don't want to be overly specific here because I don't want to start too many wars, but My other experience basically is that while presuppositionalists and reformed folks are fully aware of evidentialist argumentation and Study it in the whole nine yards.

It's not true in reverse I rarely find evidentialist to even give it the time of day to presuppositionalism

They just dismiss it as fideism and just say, you know, that's silly. No one can argue that way and so you you rarely get much of an in -depth discussion from that perspective and As a result and not only is your viewpoint of presuppositionalism skewed as far as the presentation from them is concerned

But in my experience and I'm speaking generally here, but in my experience the treatment

That many of those who are non -reformed give of evidential of I'm sorry of apologetic issues can be rather surface -level and I I think there is a fundamental difference in how you're going to do

Apologetics and and do it as it is in debate if you come from an

Arminian perspective to come from a reform perspective It does make a difference. It makes a difference as the methodologies you adopt even to the form of argumentation

And Arminian is going to be significantly more tempted to utilize arguments that are going to woo

The emotions of the individual than I am because I'm trusting in something other than that person's free will

To bring about their conversion or their acceptance of the truth And in fact, it's really not up to me to bring that about I am

I am to remonstrate with them I am to dialogue with them I'm attempt to reason with them but I am never ever ever ever supposed to abandon the truth and to compromise the truth in the process and In my experience from the

Arminian perspective, they're willing to utilize Argumentation that is not as strong because the ultimate goal is well, but I've seen it work and there's a pragmatism to it that Just just very very much concerns me as to its long -term impact.

And so Given that that from my perspective Apologetics is nothing more than the external presentation of your theology.

It's your systematic theology Well, that means you're what your theology is is must determine what your apologetics is

If your apologetics is the same matter what your theology is then there's obviously a disconnect someplace and it doesn't work

And there's there's a problem. And so if you're if you're going to a place that is not explicitly reformed then the apologetic information you're

You can do it but just be prepared of the fact that you're going to be at In a war stance and a battle stance pretty much all the time

Not only against those outside but sadly within as well. And if you're if you're built for that Then great.

Most people are not built for that and you know, there's a lot of folks I know John MacArthur has said seminary should never be a place of warfare or a battleground it should be a place of nurturing and instruction and that would be wonderful if there were enough seminaries around that could actually do things like that, but that's not been my experience and in my experience was it had to be a battleground for me and that battleground was very very important for me in the formation of who

I am and What I've done since then. Well, I don't thank you. I appreciate that I don't know if you're at liberty to give much comment on this, but the the

The program that From a practical standpoint is looking best for me where I'm at right now

Is the the MA in apologetics from Biola, which has a a kind of half distance half summer residency kind of program

Which which looks very feasible I you know, I'm I know people who have gone through that program

I have some friends that have done that that I think very highly of and some of the faculty but I'm but you know,

I'm I'm just not sure what kind of I haven't talked to them a whole lot and I've been kind of holding off on that just to kind of Decide on you know from my perspective.

Do I do I really want to? compromise on these issues and and go to a place where I might be instructed very well in an apologetic that Doesn't line up with my theology.

Yeah Put this way You know, I debate

Shabir Ali at Biola and the folks there were very nice to me and and But I was

I don't want to go into too much detail, but let's just put this way there is a clear contrast between how

I did that debate and how that debate would have been done by someone at Biola a Clear contrast and now

I would argue the students probably like that contrast, but that's a different issue You know, there were some complaints about how straightforward

I was You know, there's sort of a Southern, California laid -back thing, you know going on sometimes around there and and There's no

Someone asked me afterwards in the mob of people that were talking with me for quite some time after the the debate they said so What other debates would you like to do here?

They're real excited it had gone really well and and they wanted to have more debates And so who else would you like to bait around here?

I just I couldn't help but say well to be honest with you Logically the closest person around here that would make a good debate for me would be one of your own staff members

William Lane Craig and not just on apologetic methodology, but theology itself and his

Mullen ism and middle knowledge and you know all the rest that stuff so You know, I I have criticized

William Lane Craig's apologetics many times and and we'll have to continue doing so because again apologetics is nothing more than the consistent extension of your own systematic theology and and The the the

Mullen ism position is is not a sound systematic theology it cannot Provide a meaningful exegetical foundation of its of its assertions and therefore it's it's going to be inconsistent

And as I have played Craig's debates with Shabir Ali I've had to at times a man, you know, Ali has him there because he's wrong he's his his apologetic is is in error at that point and I certainly take a whole lot of heat for that and I'm certain that you would take just as much if you were to have to say anything similar to that within the context of Biola itself, so I don't know how that is handled to be honest with you.

I don't know You know, I do know of some reformed students at Biola but they are in the minority they are not in the majority the interestingly enough the

What I've been told there are some reformed folks in the theology area at Biola, but not in the apologetics area and which again

I find odd because I see the two as as heads and tails the same coin and so it's odd to have that kind of a separation, but you know

It all depends on whether you can be allowed to within the context of that kind of a program produce

See from my perspective if you're gonna go to seminary Then what you need to do is while you're there what you're doing if you're writing papers

They're gonna do nothing more than sit on a professor's shelf someplace and they're never gonna do anything else

You're wasting some really valuable life life is short The older I get the more

I realize that my daughter just graduated from high school, and I'm sitting there going wait a minute I just did this I Remember this with clarity.

I just did this and there she is you know the football field in the whole nine yards And it's like this is wrong

That's why that's my youngest child the life is short and so what I did in seminary is I made sure that the papers

I wrote and yeah I was frequently that the freak that was asking the professor for more pages so I could do something longer But I wanted to make sure that if I was going to invest time in Really producing something

I wanted it to be something that was going to benefit the church in the long run I want to be something

I could use in classes. I was teaching. I wanted to be something I could use in ministry and So you know you go on our website you read the the

Trinity definition of counsel on oneness theology this this 52 page paper On on oneness theology and the

Doctrine the Trinity in the history of the Council of Council and stuff like that That was a that was a paper in seminary. I I was a systematic theology class

I went to the the professor. I said look you know I've got this going on I've got this extended correspondence going on with this prisoner in a

Florida prison and With his with this pastor who's a chaplain there is one this theology

And this is what I'd like to do and he gave me the permission to do it It's still being used today So if you can if you can get the freedom to to produce materials like that while you're in seminary

That's going to be useful down the road You've got a you've got an eye toward what you want to be able to do Ministry in the church edifying the church, and you're allowed to use the resources and in fact in essence buck the system and disagree

With the prevailing perspective great if you're basically told sorry you can't do that Then you know that might you know be pretty much determinative as to whether that's something you really want to do or not

Because if you can't utilize the proper resources to produce the kind of material you really want to do Then then you might want to you know look look elsewhere,

I know that's uh if you're in the LA area That's that's one thing what

I would you know recommend that you do is there is a tremendous a tremendous scholar a man with a huge heart and a great a

Great mind over there in the southern Southern, California down in at Westminster Seminary by name of Jim Renahan and He is the professor of historical theology there

Jim heads up the Institute reform Baptist studies. He's just as as bright as they come he was my partner in debating crossing and Borg on the resurrection on the cruise a couple years ago and so I Drop him a line

I mean you can find IRB s online and I drop him a line and and Let him know you know where you are what you're doing and see what his insights are because you know he knows that Area better than I do as far as available means of education

So he might leave be aware of something that would fit your particular parameters better than I can okay, all right

Well, thank you so much for your input. I really appreciate it. All right. Thanks a lot Aaron, okay? I got a line eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

We'll take another call here in a few moments, but our breaks coming up, so I don't want to what's that?

No That's how you say no to direct to Suggestions made to you from the other room is you just go no, and that's how

I mean That's how the big guys do it isn't that how rush would do it. He would have just said nope don't want to so we'll get to Mike up in Wisconsin and your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one after we take our break and I Don't like there.

We go. We'll write How the pilgrims progress? It's not an easy way

It's a journey to the Sun In Jesus Is What is dr.

Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called Extreme Calvinism Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word.

What has happened to this sacred duty in our day? The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the

Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

God who justifies Theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

Ah Well, I just pulled up a

URL from the chat channel during the break there and It's for secrets of the code

Now on DVD if you're not intelligent enough to actually read a book. We'll just read it to you

And Of course it is it is narrated by that Paragon of all virtue that that scholar of history literature and theology

Susan Sarandon. Yeah, oh My I'm just looking at it here on on the web and it's

There's just there's there's no no end to this this foolishness and by the way, I hope you have noted

I've been trying to sort of tell folks haven't wanted to you know, I've actually been a little quiet about it

Because of you know certain criticisms I have I have received but the tomb story is not going away and Like so many of these things there is a body of literature being produced

Tabor and Pellegrino are Hard at work coming up with ways of turning the the acts of Philip into something the acts of Philip will never ever be but they're they're trying and Remember this this is how things work

They will produce and produce and produce and write paper after paper after paper

And what happens is people who are non -specialist or people who just don't think clearly

What are they very susceptible to? Well as long as scholars have written enough books and there's enough verbiage and there's enough tonnage of paper

There must be something to it. There must be something to it you see it with the Da Vinci Code stuff you see it with the with the tomb stuff the

Talpia tomb stuff and It's not it's not going away

They're they're doing their best to try to you know, most people have just waved the flag said ah irrelevant

So they everyone's given up on it and even they themselves are going. Yeah, boy. Well, that's pretty nice that people say that we certainly haven't and So anyway,

I will Keep you apprised of developments. In fact, I think yeah early this morning another blog article appeared on that and Keeping up with the

Beckwith stuff and trying to provide you with the Mormonism stuff, by the way

I don't think even you're aware of this. So mr. Pierce, but finally have the

Appendix and stuff for is the more of my brother in hand So I should be able to get hold of the folks that saw the ground fairly quickly and try to get work started on that Because it is very very much needed.

No, you're gonna update that right? That's what that's the updated portion What I did is I put together a bunch of stuff and asked my quiet koski to Whip it into shape and because as I recall

Stephen Robinson was a main target at that time. Yeah Now and Miller are mentioned in the so it's it's updated as far as that goes

I mean, it's not gonna rewrite the entire stinking book because most of it was was direct citations from LDS sources anyways, but that's what

I've been putting on the Look at the chat channel Different one.

Okay. I'm sorry. I It's a different one. It's he's does not have only one eye.

Okay He doesn't scare children or do comedy routines or any swallow microphones or any of that stuff?

No, we're not turning to Billy Crystal theology The people in channel would know him better is tired of New Jersey That would be the the way to remember my quiet Koski.

But anyways No, we did not take out Mike's appendix. Oh my goodness.

These people have got some real problems there The chat channel is an odd place Anyway, speaking of Mike's there is there is a

Mike who has been waiting for 14 minutes and 57 seconds Let's wait till 1559. There we go.

All right, Mike. How are you? Did you know you were waiting for exactly 15 minutes

I do know you you know that now and and I Well, but that's how long it took rich to clear you clear your call, but once you're put on hold

He's he's he's the man of efficiency what can we do for you Mike? Well, I I have a couple things.

I wanted to ask you about. Well, first of all Today is the last time that I can listen to you until Autumn until the fall.

Oh, why is that? Well, I made an agreement with someone who told me that I need to to Kind of detach myself

From you and your in your radio show and your website and stuff because I've been

I've been following you for a while and and I talk about you quite a bit when I'm when I'm Discussing things with people.

Oh Okay, so I was advised to go to just kind of get away from you for a while But I have come in contact with the narrow mind

Gene Scott Oh gene cook also. I'm sorry And I thought

I was pretty excited because uh, I've been listening to him for a while and he Has been telling me that it's okay to listen to rock and roll hard rock and roll and gangster rap music and drink alcohol

Excuse me You know Well when he's got someone on that I might find myself debating someday or have myself debated

But yeah, I honestly I'm not much of I don't actually attend conferences unless I'm speaking at them and because I'm just too busy so I have no idea what you're referring to now at all, but anyway

I I'm a little more concerned about the detachment thing it just in the sense that it almost makes me sound like You know,

I'm a foot fungus and you have a the summer to get rid of it or something. Well Actually, I Agree with you on just I think everything that I hear you talking about and I've been looking really hard to try and Find something that I can disagree with you on.

Oh, that's pretty easy. I'm certain we could find something Well, I I do disagree with you on I like I like I like the

Vikings. How's that? I Don't I don't I'm not come on. You can at least come up with something on the

Scottish accent something You disagree on what

Oh They obviously how can you how can you disagree with me on they are new stuff because you say

Okay, so you like to spit on people while speaking to him, is that the idea Okay, if you want to do that, that's cool

I've just had people threatened to you know knife me while talking to him So I just try to spit on him at the same time

Well, this is true so anyway, so You are you asking if you can listen to Gene Cook?

Oh, no. Oh, I mean I Been listening to I do enjoy listening to Gene.

He's really he's great. I really enjoy listen I've just never heard him do the hard rock thing before You just have to listen to a show, okay

But I did have a question Because I'm I'm surrounded. I'm going to Bible College right now.

I've talked to before yes but I'm surrounded by four pointers

I bet you you're not I'll be perfect last video Well, I had a friend of mine caught me up earlier and he was struggling he was trying to he's he's soon to be planning a church and he was just going over some things that he was

Just just different things on on how he's going to do things when he when he does plant that church

What he needs to stand for and mm -hmm and such and such that's good to think about that before you start personally

That's a good thing. I commend him for that. No, I'm serious Many people just run out and assume that that's sort of all a given rather than actually thinking about it before you get started

That's a good thing But I he's one that would argue with me about the third point

And that's something that I've actually been struggling with lately myself, okay, and it seems

I've listened to your theology and apologetics seminar You mentioned that you had some some reservations about it earlier on as well

So I've come across some passages that my dad has brought up to me and a couple other people brought up to me and I Wanted to see what you had to say about him.

Okay? such as second Peter to one You familiar with no never never heard a second

Peter to one Or first John to two or first Timothy to four or first Timothy 410 or any of those

Now you've Went as soon as you say that and say you've been listening a lot You've you've read the extensive lengthy paper on the website on second

Peter to one Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't I didn't realize you hadn't oh, yeah, you know

I gotta say I've tried to search your web page or your website for different articles different I've actually typed in like second

Peter three nine or first Timothy to Four three to five or whatever something like that and I they don't come up for me

I don't maybe I'm doing something wrong Well, if you if you go to the website and you click on apologetics, you're taking to a page that says apologetics helps

And if you click on reformed apologetics you'll find a number of reformed pages and the fourth one down says second

Peter to one and universal redemption by Simon Escobedo the third and It is a very lengthy

Treatment of the subject. I actually made reference to it. I believe yes, it did in the

Potter's freedom and Directed people to that particular URL. I believe there are

I believe here 53 footnotes here and it's I don't know how many pages to be when you print it out, but so that's that's

You know if you're if you're looking for an extensive discussion That's where you're going to find it in in a brief

Recitation I would point out the same things I point out in the debate with Brother Barker many years ago.

I'm not sure if you ever heard that debate, but When you when you can consider a second

Peter to one a few things to keep in mind Is the person raising this?

Arguing that a person can or cannot lose their salvation If they are okay, they're not so What they're saying then is that the false teachers?

Who have been purchased? Are our individuals who were purchased for not that is they somehow have been purchased

But they are not thereby redeemed by that purchasing or or that the sacrifice Christ does not actually redeem or something

There's there's got to be something else added to this purchasing Which they assume is soteriological here rather than any other context to make it work a couple things when when the text itself speaks of This this act on the part of Christ There are every time that the this particular term appears in the

New Testament And let's let's read it from the numeric standard But false prophets also arose among the people just there also be false teachers among you who will secretly introduce destructive heresies even denying the master

Who bought them? bringing swift destruction upon themselves now as I said some take that to mean that since they were purchased that means they were saved and Therefore the destruction means that there's no eternal security those who promote a universal form of atonement

But a non salvific form that is in essence Christ dies to make salvation possible

But that that self that sacrifice in of itself does not accomplish What is

I? Well see I'm trying to avoid Pointing out real problems with it right at the start because my initial

Thought is to say that does not accomplish what God intended it to because all this goes back to what what did

God intend to? Do in the atonement? What was his intention? If you haven't read Well actually the the reading list that I posted on my blog for the class

This October would be a wonderful thing for you to look at over the summer yourself

Because it includes John Owens death of death and includes Gary Long's definite element And it deals with all of these issues and has links to where you can purchase them and saying things like that so Okay and So don't pick up the phone now

But I would recommend that you take a look at that because That I think would would assist and do you have the potter's freedom?

I do and I loaned it to my Armenian very vocal Offensive friend okay well

The two chapters there you know my my my main concern when we discuss this issue is to ask the question

What was God's intention in the atonement and what does the atonement accomplish

I I do not believe that you can come to a sound understanding of the work of Christ if you do not approach it from the

God word side because this was a divine act if We approach it from the human side

As most people do in a pragmatic sense and saying well What what what's my relationship to the cross?

I don't define what God's intentions and purposes were and if I start from that perspective. I'm gonna cause a problem

My interpretation is gonna is gonna be flawed as a result and so I I try To to get folks to go the right direction so anyway going back to the text you still with me

Yeah One thing that my dad brought up to me was that when

I look at what the rest of the Bible hasn't say And I look at the doctrines of grace and the biblical

Foundation for those This is what he limited atonement He says is a logical conclusion that he doesn't think that is necessarily supported by Scripture based on text such as This he did point out

First Peter I mean, I'm sorry first John 2 2 mm -hmm, and I've heard your

Excuse me. I heard your take on that and I mean once again. I'm like yeah, that's yeah,

I do agree Well, it might my question in response would be okay.

I know those texts I've yet to have one of these individuals when they raise them answer my questions from Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 7

Hebrews 8 Hebrews 9 and Actually deal with the meaning of what atonement means is it propitiatory has the wrath of God been satisfied

Where do you get this idea that propitiation can be simply something that's theoretical but wrath actually isn't satisfied so that Jesus can die as a propitiatory sacrifice for someone who will then bear the wrath of God These are the questions.

I never hear people Answering instead they go well. You know it sounds like this over here It sounds like that over there, and I go wait a minute second

Peter 2 1 never is a term bought Used satirologically in a new testament without the price being mentioned.

It's not mentioned here the term master is not Lord It's despot a so that's not a satirical use at all

Why don't why don't people respond these things they're assuming meanings to master that that aren't in the Greek They're assuming the certain uses the terms just just are not consistent with the rest of the

New Testament And these are the traditions that are that are that are pushing these things and I think I can demonstrate these are traditions because when

I go to Hebrews and I start walking through the specific passages that are about the atonement its scope.

It's its purpose It's intention its results They're very very clear these texts aren't about that There's this text is about false teachers first John is not about the extent of the atonement and so they're taking a passing reference

Expanding that out and then when you come to the actual text Where you you actually have to deal with the assertion of Hebrews?

He is able to save to the uttermost by this will we have been sanctified

Perfected not just hypothetically not just well someday. We hope so So, you know, that's that's a concern for me

I am very very very rarely ever had a meaningful conversation with somebody on these particular subjects

In fact, I wish I could have time and you know, maybe this summer I don't know

But I've always wanted to get back to the one time I got semi close to that in a written form in a discussion with Eric Svensson on our blogs

But then he went away and I went away and he sort of had that got to have last word and I've always kept the post

Because it's always been my intention to go back because I think it would be very very useful to I've always wanted to it hasn't been a lack of desire my parts just just you know, there's

Islam and Roman Catholicism and Mormonism and everything else just keeps, you know doesn't go away So I want to get back to those things but that to me, you know read read

Owens death of death read read some of these works that will will focus upon the fulfillment of God's intention the perfection of the cross and I Just don't find anywhere where these texts are saying well

Christ died to make it possible for you to be saved That's not the that's not the apostolic proclamation

You know Well, actually, I know that you've actually heard the response, but the one that I keep getting is

Yeah, they do believe that you know, it's I'm sorry They believe they don't believe that Christ died just to make someone stable necessarily, but they would say that it's just as if You were given a money order and I paid for it, but you didn't cash it in so I'm still out the money, but you didn't you know, but see what what that completely misses is the intention of the atonement in the sense of The fulfillment of the wrath of God against sin you see you see the problem with that entire analogy is that it takes something like Giving of a gift and turns that into the entirety of the relationship to the atonement.

That's not that's not what we're talking about Was the wrath of God Satisfied in the place of every single human being in the death of Christ and was it

God's intention? that the death of Christ Satisfied the wrath of God against every single individual in the exact same way

That's what the universal atonement position is saying is that there is no distinction There's no union of the elect based upon God's sovereign freedom

With Christ in his death there is a union of all of humanity and Then what then becomes what makes the decision as to whether that atonement is fulfilled or not

Becomes either in full -blown Arminianism. Well for of course for below I mean isn't doesn't believe in substitutionary atonement, but in in quote -unquote one pointers where you might want to call them

That's man's free will the four the four pointers might want to at least talk about election, but I'll be perfect honest with you

You find someone who's a four -pointer who doesn't immediately say oh by that I mean this and they start utilizing very specific

Terminology that would identify them as really knowing what they're talking about 95 % of the quote -unquote four pointers that I have talked to their objections against particular redemption were actually objections against unconditional election

That's what they actually were about they're actually opposed to the idea that God has sovereignly

Chosen a specific number of the elect not based upon any Foreseen merit of their own but based solely upon his own purpose and grace the freedom of his own will that's what they're actually objecting to Not not to the particular redemption part.

I'm actually I see that also, and I I Agree, I agree.

Yeah, that's well And and so they're not so the issue really isn't those texts because if their objection is actually against unconditional election

Well that debate has to take place someplace else the whole reason that they're reading first John 2 2 or a second

Peter 2 1 the way that they are is because of the fact they don't actually really believe in unconditional election and I've never found one person who believed in unconditional that didn't that rejected unconditional election to believe near -resistible grace

And so now they've got the middle three are gone And so if you don't have the middle three that you can't really believe in total depravity because man must have a free will to Be able to save himself

So the first four are gone if you don't have the first four there's obviously no reason to believe in the perseverance of the Saints and so the whole the whole thing, you know comes crumbling down and That's why folks who run around calling themselves four -pointers

Who do not know who Amarillo was and cannot exactly tell you what Amarillo actually believed

That's Emerald Ian ism, and that's not actually four -point ism by the way some people think it is

But that's yeah, somebody might somebody I'll just say somebody told me that just the other day Yeah, Emerald Ian ism is not

Technically four -point ism. Okay those who actually now there's there's different takes and I think

Emerald Ian's need to be a little bit more honest in their recognition that Emeril was not the easiest person to read and there are different takes even on his particular understanding, but They make a concerted effort, let's give the

Emerald Ian's this much credit They make a concerted effort to continue to believe in unconditional election while taking a different understanding of the relationship of that decree to the sacrifice of Christ and you know,

I Don't have any problem with discussions about the fact that the sacrifice of Christ has impact

Outside of just the redemption of the elect there is a cosmic sense in which

God's justice is Demonstrated in the sacrifice of Christ. There's no question about that, but that's not actually addressing the real issue

Which is what was the intention of God the Father God the Son and and God the

Holy Spirit in the sacrifice of Christ In reference to the redemption of mankind who was united to him in his death

Where is the wrath of God propitiated is it is it propitiated in the death of the Sun alone?

Which I would argue eventually leads rather inevitably to universalism in many forms but or is it that Christ suffers wrath and All unbelievers will likewise suffer wrath for the same sins that allegedly he already atoned for that's where the issue comes in I recognize that there are other

Aspects that we can talk about but until we get that one down I'm really not sure that we've we've addressed the the important subject and certainly important in regards to The the perversion of those things by Roman Catholicism and the mass and and all these other things

Which is why it's so very important that we really do have a solid understanding of the cross By the way in behalf of my friends.

They they do very much believe in Unconditional election or the biblical support for that, but they're just they just struggle with Particular atonement well

Okay, I can understand that there are people who do that. I would likewise then say to them in response to that okay

If you do why do you? Because where how can there be a consistency between the idea that God has elected?

A certain people unite with them with Christ so that his death becomes their death why? Unite to Christ so that his death becomes their death individuals that are not the recipients of his unmerited favor

Why why punish the son in behalf of an individual who will be rightly judged for their sins?

So the sins are punished twice I've asked me the same question actually yeah, I I I honestly think that one of the best ways to to Get around or get over the the objection if the objection is actually a biblically grounded objection is to focus upon The perfection of the work of Christ in the book of Hebrews.

I've found the book of Hebrews to be the greatest antidote To that to be perfectly honest within and honestly to be honest as well

I think it's because the book of Hebrews is so difficult for many people That's why there's these as many of these discussions.

We have hey Mike Have a great summer Look up the look up the reading list for the class

I think you'd find the books there to be very useful get the potter's freedom back from your Arminian friend And and we'll talk to you in the fall.

I guess all right Alright God bless Well that was an interesting program two calls half an hour piece you can't argue that we don't give you enough time

So not quite a full half hour about 20 minutes each, but thanks listen to my line Tuesday is going to be in the

Afternoon not in the morning Tuesday will be that this same time on Tuesday rather than morning times keep that mind

I'll blog it. We'll see you then God bless We need

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