What Is a Pastor?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age -old question, what is a pastor?

Now, before we get started on this, in my mind, what's really just a silly question that we even have to sit here for an hour and talk about this,

Tim, but before we get into all that, I wanted to just start out by saying,

Happy Father's Day. For everyone else, this is going to be the day after Father's Day, but we're recording this

Sunday night, so I wanted to go ahead and take that chance and tell you Happy Father's Day and just ask you a little bit, what did you guys end up doing today?

Yeah, thank you, you too, man. Is this your first one, or is this your second? This is the second one, yeah.

I guess technically the third, but the second since Priscilla's been born. Got it, got it.

Yeah, we had a good time, went to church, went swimming. My dad's house after that, so it was fun.

Wore the same shirt as every other guy in our church. Yeah, that was a little bit odd.

For those of you who don't know, at our church, all of the wives ended up conspiring against all of their husbands, and all the wives bought the same exact white button -down shirt and then told their husband, here's a shirt for Father's Day, you should wear it today.

And so all the guys wore it, and everyone walked in, and we were all wearing the same exact shirt.

Yeah, I had to wear the shirt, and it wasn't really a shirt that I would normally wear.

But then I had to kind of think about reacting well to the gift, because it was my father.

But then I was relieved. Put on a smile, put on a smile. I was relieved when I figured out it was a joke.

It was a joke, yeah. Yeah, I had a similar. My wife, she ended up telling me ahead of time that that was what was happening, and so I knew going in.

But yeah, it definitely wasn't a shirt that is typically the trademark

Harrison style. But it was funny.

Got a laugh out of it. I got to go out, and I bought a gun yesterday, and so I got to go out and try that out today for a little bit.

I must have been listening to our last podcast episode on guns, because I was moved to go out and buy one.

Well, we had hamburgers, so there's nothing that's more American than eating hamburgers and shooting guns.

And shooting guns. And eating hamburgers and shooting guns. Apparently so. We had an American Father's Day. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that.

It was pretty fun. The only thing that stunk about it was I bought 50 rounds, and I burned through that in no time at all.

It was nothing. But anyways, yeah, I just wanted to take a moment and say Happy Father's Day, acknowledge that.

All right, the topic question for today is what is a pastor? Which for some people might feel like that's kind of coming out of left field, but I'll fill you in on the reasoning behind doing this episode, behind asking this question.

So this last week, the SBC annual convention met in Anaheim, California.

And really, one of the big sort of events that happened was there was a specific committee that had been put together last year and was tasked with really investigating a specific church,

Saddleback Church, which I think was founded in Anaheim, California. They're in California somewhere.

I don't know if it is Anaheim or not, but they're in California. And this committee was put together to investigate

Saddleback Church and Rick Warren, the head pastor, to determine whether or not they should be disfellowshipped from the

SBC, which is a pretty big deal, especially considering how lax it seems like the

SBC is sometimes with who they let stay in the denomination.

So it was a pretty big deal that they were being investigated. And the reason they were being investigated was because many had alleged that they no longer were in agreement with the

Baptist Faith and Message 2000. But it's not alleged, it's just they're not.

Right, right. You're being polite. I'm being polite. I'm being generous here. I'm not giving away the whole episode before we get to it.

But yeah, so they're not in alignment with it. And specifically why they're not in alignment with it is because they actually ordained,

I think two, maybe more than two, but I think it was at least two, female pastors at their church.

And this isn't like they're over women's ministry or something.

I think they're just women pastors, the same as any other pastor in their church.

And so they were being investigated for this. And so the committee, they came back, and they were ready to give their report.

And essentially what they said in their report was basically, we can't come to a conclusion yet because we don't feel comfortable defining what a pastor is specifically.

So our recommendation is that we put together another committee that is now going to study and determine what the term pastor actually means, which it got not exactly the most favorable response from everyone at the convention, especially

Al Mohler, which I thought was a little surprising that he was so outspoken about this.

I was glad he was, though, because this is a pretty big deal. And so essentially,

I guess all of that to say, the way that it kind of came off was the

SBC is essentially suggesting that they aren't quite sure, or at least the ones who are at the head of the convention, they are not sure what the actual definition of pastor is, especially as it relates to the

Baptist Faith and Message 2000. Well, I believe them. Yeah, I mean, it's concerning, to say the least, that they're having to come back and say, we need a committee to determine this.

So we thought it might be helpful to maybe try and cut out a year's worth of work for the

SBC in about an hour to an hour and a half and just talk about what is a pastor, what does that role look like, what are the responsibilities, what are the qualifications, what is it, what is a pastor?

I think I believe them. The thing is, I think my reaction, maybe before we get there,

I could just say, my reaction to it is that I have a bit of a different reaction maybe than I think a lot of people on Twitter, in that my reaction to them needing to put together a study committee to determine what a pastor is, is

I'm just like, yeah, well, obviously they need to do that, because they literally have no idea what the word meant. But then it's not something that's news for me, if that makes sense.

Right, yeah. So, I mean, the fact is that this is something that, this is not coming out of left field, meaning this is something that they've confused for a long time, and it's something that they,

I have no confidence that they have ever known what that word meant at all, which is why you have youth pastors and you have worship pastors and you have women's pastors that have been a normal thing.

You mentioned the idea of this isn't just a female pastor or something.

These are not categories that ever make any sense, period. In the

SBC for many years, they have essentially put women in roles that are requiring of them to do things that are restricted to elders in the church, and they've done that for years.

And so the whole idea of a female Bible study leader is something that makes no sense biblically.

The idea of a youth pastor is something that makes no sense biblically. The idea of a worship pastor that is not also considered an elder at a church absolutely makes no sense biblically.

None of it makes any sense. There's not a category for that in the Bible. For any of it, yeah. I mean, the

Bible has categories for pastor -pastors, but then what's happened is they've been playing fast and loose with this term for many years anyways.

And regardless of whatever they call women, they've put women in pastoral roles for many, many years.

And like, wonder of wonders, big shock, now they don't know what they've done. And now it's complicated to them.

They've had women on committees for years that are picking pastors and making finance decisions and everything else.

They've put women in positions of authority within the church. And they've had women.

The issue is, I could care less what happens with Saddleback. I mean, I could care less what happens with the SPC in general.

I think they're a dumpster fire. And then going to the convention is like a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

It's a disaster, man. It's embarrassing. But I don't care. Ichabod is written on that place.

But the point, though, is just to say that they've done this for years. And Rick Warren or not, it doesn't matter.

To me, it doesn't matter at all. Because it's one of those things where functionally you have put women in pastoral roles.

The whole denomination's doing it. Even a lot of the guys reacting, the good guys or whatever, reacting against this kind of thing, they're doing the same kind of thing.

I bet. I'm not saying they all are. I'm just saying the vast majority of SPC people are playing fast and loose with this concept in general.

So, yeah, they absolutely have no idea what this word means. And I believe them. That's the point.

I don't think that anything—this is not new. This is just revealing a profound kind of confusion that has been created because the

SPC has a habit of creating— what they do in every single way is that they make, in order to violate the

Bible, what the Bible says is they create these kind of extra -biblical categories. And then those categories are not bound by the rules of the

Bible. And so then, if you want to have— there's no concept in the

Bible of a youth pastor or something like that. But then if you create a youth pastor, then you get around all the biblical qualifications of a pastor, right?

And so you have something that's called a pastor that has none of the qualifications and only a bare -boned kind of expectation of what the actual role is, right?

So you lower the standards, you change the role up, and then you create confusion to the point where— the funny thing is that this is actually a serious question that these people are asking, and it's because they have grown up and lived in a framework that has no understanding of ecclesiology.

Right. At all. Right. Yeah. No, you're right. I mean, you think about it. All right, so the former

SBC president, Ed Litton, what was he doing? Letting his wife preach sermons on Sunday morning to the entire church?

And the justification was, hey, Ed Litton was standing right next to her, and so his standing next to her was acting as the authority over her, which somehow allows her to then preach to the entire church, right, including all of the men, which goes directly against what

Paul is saying. For years and years, you've had women going to SBC institutions of higher learning and getting pastoral degrees, even

MDiv. Yeah, and you've had Beth Moore preaching at conferences for years. They're doing it at the conferences, they're doing it at the parachurch level.

Hey, and you know what's the most interesting thing is, I don't know if you know this, but I watched the live stream of that whole presentation, and the head of that— or at least the one presenting all of the information,

I don't know if she was the head of the committee. Head of the committee, yeah. But she was at least the one presenting all the information.

She was a woman. Well, that's the thing, at every single level you have women leading worship who are essentially doing so in an authoritative manner.

The point is just this is at every single level, and what you do is you create these extra -biblical kind of things.

So it's like, hey, this is a parachurch organization. This isn't the church, right? So we can have a female seminary professor at our seminary or whatever.

This is a conference. This is not a local church gathering. And so what you've done is you've created extra -biblical categories, and then you do what you really want to do, and then at some point it's like, oh, yeah, now we need to go study this because it isn't entirely clear.

Well, the problem is it's absolutely clear to anyone who has their eyes open and has their eyes open the whole time.

The issue is if you see what's happening— I mean, I've watched them do this game for years and years and years, and this is nothing new.

This is just something that people are outraged right now by, but this is something that's been happening for years.

The problem is the SPC, it is pragmatic to the core. That's who they are.

They're pragmatists. I thought—when

I went to seminary, I'm the kind of person I went to seminary, but then I went to seminary because I had all these questions about the

Bible, but I didn't look at the seminary to answer my questions about the Bible. Our podcast, in a lot of senses, are the kind of questions that I've asked myself over the course of years, and I went to the

Bible to try to find answers to these kind of things, and I went to seminary in order to have an extra set of people who have been doing it longer than me speaking into that process, but it wasn't as if I wasn't engaged in that process actively myself.

I mean, all these questions—what is a pastor? What is a church? These are questions that I've looked up the

Bible, read books, and done everything I can to answer these kind of questions, but then your standard

SPC kind of person really is not doing that at all. No, no, they're not.

They're not. They're not at all. Even the people going to seminary, they're not doing that kind of thing. They're just—what they're doing is they're going to seminary never having very little understanding of what the

Bible says at all on their own, and then just doing whatever they're told, right? And then they're going into these churches and just blindly following the leader, and they've never just stepped aside and asked themselves, what does the

Bible say about what a church is and what it should be doing in a way that I want to do what the

Bible says first. I don't want to just mimic what's happening. And so right now, with the SPC, you do have a lot of fundamentally sycophantic, pragmatic kind of people who basically are governed by pragmatism.

And so what's happened is that at every single conceivable level, they obviously don't know what a pastor is.

I can't emphasize this enough. This is not new.

They haven't known what a pastor is ever. For years, they obviously don't know what a pastor is, and it's a joke to anyone who actually does it.

So the joke is not that they're studying it right now. The joke is that it's just now dawning on them that they have no definition of this.

For years and years and years, the joke is that they haven't been aware that they've been a joke for so long.

That's the thing that's funny about it. The thing that's funny about it is you guys have no idea what you're doing, and you haven't had any idea what you're doing for years.

And then the problem is if you're the kind of person who steps into that and says they absolutely have no idea what they're doing, it's just like then you're the cranky and not winter and everything else.

But it's like they obviously don't know what they're doing, and they're obviously not governed by Scripture. They're not approaching this topic with the understanding that the

Bible is sufficient. And if they were to do that at any point, almost everything they're doing has to change. They don't want to go there with it because that doesn't make people happy and get the numbers that they want.

Right. Yeah. And in my mind, we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording, but in my mind, this suggesting that a committee needs to be formed to spend a year to study, you know, what does the

Bible say a pastor is, in my mind at this point it just feels like a, what do we need to do to redefine the term into what we want it to be?

It just feels like a downgrade, you know. Like the fact that they're even having to do that is already a utter failure.

Yeah, I mean, in 2000 they defined it pretty well, I thought. And Al Mohler seemed to think so, too.

Yeah, I think it's one of those things where it's hard to know, is this just an agenda to stall or whatever?

But whatever it is, like you described it as a debate between whether or not a pastor is an office or a gifting.

This isn't a debate. A debate would treat it with a level of seriousness that it doesn't deserve.

There is no biblical debate for this. This is just, you do have individuals who are, and Rick Warren is chief among them, the chief pragmatist that there is.

The father of pragmatism in the church. He says he trains 1 .1 million pastors or whatever, and it's just like, yeah, honestly,

I believe him. I don't know how he's counting that, but 40 million people read that stupid book of his, and they're all just like him.

They're all pragmatists just like him, and he taught them all how to be pragmatists. So I would say that I don't think that there's a million pastors in America that have been trained by him.

I think it's a little bit hyperbole, but I do think that the vast majority of particularly

SVC pastors fundamentally wish they could be Warren. Right, yeah, yeah,

I think you're right. I think that's evidenced by the fact that he was let talk for five or six minutes straight.

Given the place of honor, you know. But yeah, I don't know if the agenda is to stall or not, but I don't know if it's like an agenda just like, let's form a study committee so that we can slip in this error intentionally.

I mean, I think that's probably what's happening, but I do think that they are bone ignorant about what the

Bible says. When they say they don't know what a pastor is, I absolutely believe them, because if they did, they wouldn't be doing half the things that they're doing for years now.

Now, I mean, that's thinking the best of them when you probably don't deserve it. Saying it's ignorance is far too charitable in that it's evil, and it could be knowledgeable evil.

I wouldn't put that past him either. But I do think that they're that stupid. They don't know what the word means, for sure.

Right, right. Yeah, maybe I'm giving them too much credit, huh? I mean, when

J .D. Greer says, like, he repeats that from Jim Wilkin, the

Bible whispers about sexual sin and it shouts about oppression and all that. It's just like, yeah, I think you literally have never read this book before, man.

I really think that you are that ignorant about what it says here. Like, you didn't realize how stupid that was, and how many verses that there are that actually speak, like, you know,

I really don't think you knew that that was there. I don't know that you know what

Revelation says about outside are the dogs and the sexually immoral. I don't think that you know what the

Bible says when it says that all other sins are outside the body.

Yeah, I just don't think you've ever read this book before, man. I really don't.

I don't think you've ever read it before. Not once in your life, I don't think you've read it. Or it was so long ago you forgot what was in there,

I think you're just getting your sermons, someone's doing them for you in order to make you look good, and it's just a book you're totally ignorant of.

But I think that, yeah, I mean, I think that most SBC people are pretty ignorant about everything that's in there, because they couldn't do the things that they were, like,

I don't think they could do the things that they're doing if they had a clue, like, what's actually in the book, you know?

Yeah, I mean, Al Mohler didn't want to go there at all, you know? I mean, it could be that they're just stubborn and evil, but I do think they're just ignorant.

I think that they are, you know, people like Priest, I think they're ignorant. And it's a culpable ignorance, they should know better.

But, like, I don't think they have any idea what's in there. Right. Now, we've railed on the

SBC for about 15 minutes or so. Maybe we could do it a little longer, you know?

We could keep going, but I'll stop it there. But, well, maybe

I'll get one more dig in right here. But, you know, all right, so the SBC, they're going to put, as far as I know, that passed, and they're going to put this committee together to study what a pastor is.

Maybe that failed. I'm actually not sure now that I think about it, but I don't remember ever hearing about the vote on it, so I'm not sure what the status of that is.

But, you know, assuming that that is the plan, they're gearing up to put together a committee, hand -selected by the current

SBC president, Bart Barber. They're going to spend a year studying what a pastor is.

Tim, maybe you could, I mean, you could really help the SBC right here. You could save them a lot of money.

You could save them a lot of time by, you know, in about an hour or so, by just answering the question for them, and then we can go back and we can point everyone back to this podcast, and then, you know, that'll just save everyone a lot of effort,

I think. So, Tim, save them time, save them money. Tell us, what is a pastor?

Yeah, I mean, it is an embarrassing question to have to answer. You're like, this is insulting.

In this kind of context, it is particularly embarrassing, but, yeah, no, you know, pastor is not a word that's actually in the

Bible, and that may take some people by surprise. Meaning, like, that word itself is not, like, a word that is used.

Now, like, you'll find, you know, if you look up, like, pastoring, you know, you'll have, like, shepherds in the

Old Testament who are pastoring a flock, and essentially, like, the idea of a pastor itself is the idea of a shepherd.

So, it's a term that's essentially synonymous with shepherd. So, you know, essentially, this is like an

Old French Latin kind of word in that way that is a synonym for shepherd, and, you know, that's really, like, if you want to think about the primary metaphor that God uses to describe, like, what you might describe as the office of pastor, is, like, this word shepherd, okay?

So, you have a variety of Bible verses at that point that are essentially, like, biblical metaphors that are used to describe the same role.

So, you know, one of the primary words is elder, okay?

So, like, the elders who rule well among you be worthy of double honor, particularly those who labor in preaching and teaching.

So, you have, like, different words that are mostly metaphors. So, elder is a metaphor that describes, like, an individual who's obviously advanced in years, okay?

So, like, elder, you know, has a normal connotation. You know, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight, willingly, not under compulsion, everything else.

So, you have, like, the term, you have a metaphor of elder, you have a metaphor for shepherd, which is probably the primary one, the shepherd one.

But then, you also have, like, if anyone aspires to the office of overseer, you know, they aspire to a noble calling, let them be tested first and all that.

So, like, the issue there is you have, like, these different metaphors, right? So, overseer is kind of a metaphor, elder is a metaphor, shepherd is a metaphor, but then they're all pointing to, like, this one particular office.

And so, there's a variety of descriptors there that are given. Like, so, overseer, shepherd, elder, to the same kind of role.

And then, you know, you might describe that role as a pastor, that's fine, if you understand that word pastor simply to be a shepherd, if that makes sense.

And so, essentially, you know, you talk about, well, what is, like, that role? And I mean, it's not, like, it's just the kind of thing that's, like, it's not really all that complicated.

You can, you know, look it up in the dictionary, it's not really all that hard. As far as that goes,

I mean, even the pagans know what this word means. It's not, like, an overly complicated word. But, you know, it is a biblical office that's given.

So, it's a position of spiritual authority over a particular local congregation that is given to men.

Like, that's what it is. And so, it's, like, a particular, what you might describe as an office that's restricted to men based on the biblical qualifications that you're going to find there that involves individuals who are given spiritual oversight over a particular local congregation, and then they have certain duties and responsibilities that they're given, like, you know, administering the ordinances, church ordinances.

They're, you know, called to basically preach the whole counsel of God to a particular flock in order to present them, you know, complete in Christ.

And so, you have, like, different metaphors, as I've said, that are used to describe, like, the nature of that role, and that it's, like, a role for elders.

It's a role for, like, it's a shepherding kind of role. And so, you have a sheep -shepherd metaphor there that gives you some insight into how it works.

You know, and then you have, like, the overseer role metaphor. You also have, like, father metaphor. So, that you're going to find, like, you know,

Paul describes himself as a father in the faith, this, you know, spiritual father kind of role.

And so, it's just a shepherd -disciple -overseer role that an individual is given with certain responsibilities to disciple a certain flock, to shepherd them, to lead them, to ultimately present them complete in Christ.

And so, that's kind of the short of it. But, I mean, it's not really all that overly complicated.

Pete So, are there, has God given specific qualifications or, like, a, you know,

I guess to put it maybe in more modern, you know, terms, like a job description or something along that line?

Jared Well, you have the qualifications that you're going to find in, you know, 1 Timothy and Titus, so there are those qualifications.

But then, like, the job description essentially is, like, the, you know, you take the sheep -shepherd metaphor and you go with it, you know.

So, you know, what does a shepherd do? He leads a flock to green pastures, right? So, like, the job description involves, you know, preaching the word, exercising oversight over a particular congregation.

He's a primary, you know, the elders are primarily, the primary one's in charge of, you know, disciple -making within the body.

They're called or they're tasked to build up the body in love, like, meaning to equip the saints for the work of ministry.

So, you know, the minister is not the only one who's responsible to do ministry. The ministers are responsible to equip the saints to minister to itself, to build itself up together in love.

So, you know, there's just, there's a variety of metaphors at that point that are describing the role, but it's a Bible -teaching role, it's a spiritual oversight role, it's a shepherd role, it's a father -in -faith kind of role.

So, yeah. Petey - Protect from false teachers too. Yeah, part of the shepherding role is to protect the flock from false teaching and that involves, like, identifying false teachers and then naming them, okay?

Like, identifying them, marking and avoiding them, you know, and then, like, there's spiritual oversight within the body.

They're, you know, the ones responsible for, you know, everything that really goes on within the church.

Right. And so, what specifically are those qualifications given? Yeah, I mean, you can just read through 1

Timothy 3. So, 1 Timothy 3, one saying is trustworthy, if anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

Therefore, an overseer must be, you know, above approach, husband of one wife. So, literally, one woman and man there, sober -minded, self -controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

He must manage his own household well with all dignity, keeping his children submissive. For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for the flock of God?

He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into condemnation of the devil. He must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace and into the snare of the devil.

So, there's a list there that you find in 1 Timothy, and you have a very similar list that you're going to find in Titus 1.

But those are generally qualifications. But then, for the purpose of our discussion, the primary one being, he must be the husband of one wife, right?

He must be one woman and man. He, you know, you have the he there, and then my. So, this is an office that's limited to men.

I don't think Paul was talking about, like, transgender either, was he? Well, that would be a bit anachronistic.

But, yeah, transgender is not a thing, you know? It's just plain pretend.

You can chop all the parts off you want, but transgender people don't actually exist. Right. So, okay.

So, yeah. In my mind, there's two pretty big points of contention when it comes to why this is even a debate in the

SBC. And we've talked a lot about that first one. We've mentioned both of them, but that first one, asking, essentially, can women, you know, be pastors or not, right?

That's a pretty big, I don't know that everyone is presenting that as, like, this is what we're trying to find out.

But, essentially, that's the battle that's being fought in the SBC. What do you mean?

You don't know that that's the battle being fought, meaning, like, the idea of a female as a pastor over men?

Is that what you mean? Yeah, like, I don't know. That's the battle being fought. I am saying that's the battle being fought.

I'm just not sure that I've heard everyone. I personally haven't seen everyone coming out and saying, hey, we're trying to figure out if women can be pastors or not.

That's what's happening. But I just haven't seen everyone claiming that. I've seen them claiming the other point that I'll mention here in a minute.

Okay. But I think that is essentially, you know, what's being fought over here and trying to be decided on.

And really, honestly, just from a functional view, it already has been decided in the

SBC, because for all the reasons that we've already mentioned, women being allowed to go get a master's degree in pastoral ministry and being allowed to head up committees in the

SBC and make financial decisions. Yeah, I mean, if this was a serious discussion we were having, then you would do that.

Meaning, if this was a serious discussion that's being had, they would have identified it years ago.

I mean, there's been plenty of lady pastors in the SBC. They've just been pastors over women for the most part.

Yeah, yeah. So this isn't, like, we've already lost. I mean,

I don't consider myself, I mean, I'm not a part of SBC Church right now, and I don't consider myself unified with them in any way, but they've already lost this battle a long time ago.

Right. They've had women doing everything that pastors should be doing for years, and they've been taught by Beth Moore, who is functionally, like, it's just one step.

It's the next step. It's not only the next step, it's the next logical step, because essentially, for them,

I believe it's confusing, because they've basically butchered the distinction between a pastor and everything else for years, and now it's just like, yeah, of course, this is the next step.

You know, like, obviously, you've had, like, women pastoring other women for years, so, like, because you brought in the standpoint theory that seemed to think that a woman couldn't learn anything from a man unless she hears it in her heart language from a woman or something.

And so, like, you've done this for years, so this is just the next logical step that obviously, like, you have to now make sense of what you've done, and that means, well, maybe there's some way to nuance it.

Right, yeah. Like, to where, like, you know, like, yeah, well, maybe they don't have the office of pastor, but then they have the gift of pastor or something like this, you know.

Right. Now, the reason I bring all that up is just to say, you know, so where are we getting that it can only be a man, then?

Yeah. Where are we getting that? Well, yeah. Is it just because, like, we just hate women? That's what it is, right?

Yeah. We hate women. We're misogynistic.

We want to keep women in their place. Yeah. And, like, I think Eric Conner or something had a funny tweet, like, along those lines.

Something like, women, you know, don't only exist to make sandwiches, but they also exist to, you know, make meatloaf and babies.

Hey, yeah, they get to wash dishes, too. They also get, yeah, do the laundry, you know.

But, yeah, I mean, the Bible obviously says, the saying is trustworthy. If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he aspires to a noble task.

Therefore, an overseer must be above reproach, husband of one wife. This is a role. The office of overseer is a role that is restricted to men.

And, you know, God has, like, chosen men to be His primary teachers in the church. Paul says

He doesn't permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over men. And so we've, like,

He called, you know, men to be His apostles. You know, as men who wrote the scriptures. So, and He did so for a reason.

He's equipped men to take on this role. And there's, ontologically, men are different than women. And women are, yes, they're much more prone to deception.

And they're not equipped or qualified for this kind of role. And that's why He made men to do it. And so, you know, that doesn't mean that men are better than women.

Men are just better than women at being pastors. And it's obvious that that's true. I mean, men are obviously better at women than being pastors.

That's why, you know, if you look at all the denominations that have women as pastors, like, they're filled with all the rainbow

LGBTQ nonsense. Because, like, men are obviously better at the job than them.

And they've been designed by God to be. But, you know, the whole of the Bible teaches this.

This isn't just something you find at one point. You know, let the women, like, learn in silence in the church.

And if they have a question, let them ask their husband at home. For it's shameful for a woman to speak. Like, there's just all these verses that we're not allowed to talk about that are there.

Right, right. That have to mean something. Sure. Yeah, so I think that's sort of the first big, you know, it's a pretty contentious point that I think is being fought over, even.

And one side is willing to say that that's being fought over, right? And that's the side that's saying, you know, no, women can't be pastors.

And I guess really quick while we're talking about that, I did want to ask you, so what, is there, you know, is there any sort of justification for women being pastors over other women only?

Okay. Why not? I mean, that's the point. Like, the point is that there's not, like, the reason why this is a discussion is because the

SBC has butchered an ecclesiology, like, for many, many years. Like, this is why they're discussing it.

And so, like, for them, like, that's a question that you're asking. You're asking to try to say, well, you know, this is what they're saying.

Is there, like, anything to it that is even remotely reasonable? The problem is, like, the reason why they're asking that kind of question, like, the reason why they're confused is not because this is anything in the

Bible that is telling them to be confused. Okay? So, like, there's nothing in the Bible that is putting this point forward.

What's happened is that you essentially adopted, like, a seeker -sensitive approach to church.

And it's, like, every age, every stage. It's consumer -driven. It's, you know, poll the audience, figure out what they want.

And, like, what's happened is, like, the church has largely tried to, like, it's man -centered to its core.

I mean, and that's what Rick Warren taught everyone, to be man -centered to its core. And so, what you have to have is you have to have the church, like, segregated by age and by gender at every conceivable level so that every individual, like, gets something for them.

Right? So, like, your standard church shopper goes to church, and they think, you know, what do you have for us?

Right? It's, like, oh, we don't have anything for you. All we have is, like, the teaching of the Bible by an elder every week, you know?

You know, sorry, you know, we're just, like, we hate you, you know? One -star review.

Yeah. I mean, like, we literally, you know, hate your kids and hate your wife and hate everyone else because we don't have anything for them.

Right? And a lot of churches, they feel, like, deeply embarrassed when they're asking those kind of questions. But, like, when

I'm asked those kind of questions, what I say is, well, we have the preaching of the Word every week. And, like, we have corporate worship every week.

And, like, this isn't really about you. It's about God. And we gather here to worship God and to equip the saints.

And we do that in the way that the Bible prescribes. And so if you, you know, don't like the

Bible, then you're not going to like our church, you know? But our church isn't about you. It's about God. Okay?

Right. But then the thing is, like, so when you do that for years, and you think, like, that you have to have, like, like, what's happened is you have a bunch of unsubmissive women who don't like men and, like, want to hear the

Bible, you know, from another woman being taught. And so, like, in order for them to feel like they get anything out of it, and it's like, well, you have a problem with God's designed role of pastors in the church.

What you have is you have a lot of churches who have essentially catered to that. You know, I've been at churches where, like, women, like, they had to have their own

Bible study because they would feel, like, you know, because they were divorced and they, you know, all this stuff.

And, like, they would feel embarrassed being around, like, the rest of the body, and they had to have their own little thing for them, you know?

And then if you take that away from them, they leave. Like, but the point is, we've been doing that kind of thing for years. And so the problem is not coming from the

Bible. The problem is coming from our culture and coming from our society. It's coming from, like, a corrupted church.

So when you read through the Bible, you have, there's no, like, there's no, nothing in there that would even remotely tell you that a woman has any business teaching at church, period.

Okay? Like, no business whatsoever. You know, like, the passage that people go to when they're trying to justify this kind of thing is

Titus 2. But then just, like, you have to actually read Titus 2. Like, you have to actually read what it's saying.

And what it's saying is very different than what you think. So, you know, Paul says to Titus, But as for you, teach what accords to sound doctrine.

This is Titus 2 .1. Older men are to be sober -minded, dignified, self -controlled, sound in faith, in love, and steadfastness.

And then notice this. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine.

Notice what it says there. To teach what is good. And so, so what are they to teach, right? They're to teach what is good.

And so, train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self -controlled, pure, working at home, kind, submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

Notice what they're teaching. It's not doctrine. Like, this isn't a Beth Moore Bible study. This is not even Kay Arthur, you know.

Like, what they're teaching is women to, like, what this involves is, like, hey, let's pull out a cookbook, okay?

And teach you how to cook. Let's talk about a meal plan. Let's talk about a schedule. Let's talk about a cleaning schedule.

Like, let's talk about, like, how to love your husband well. Like, this has nothing, like, this is practical.

Like, this is practical domestic duties. This is how to take care of a kid, how to breastfeed a kid, you know, how to please your husband.

Like, this is, like, that kind of stuff. This has nothing to do with this. I'll have a Bible study on 1 Timothy, like, at all.

Like, in fact, like, the Bible says over and over again that women are to be silent in church. And if they have a question, ask their husband, right?

So, like, but what's happened is you, like, if they're appealing to the Bible at all, it's

Titus 2. But it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Like, Titus 2 has, like, this has nothing to do with anything, like, that a pastor is doing.

You understand what I mean? Right, right. Like, meaning, like, a pastor is going to be, you know, teaching what accords to sound doctrine.

And, like, older women are to take the younger women under their, you know, whatever the expression is.

Take them under their wing. Yeah, they're going to take them under their wing. And they're going to teach them how to run a household, and to be domestic, and to love their husband, and love their children.

And the fact is, like, we, like, the church needs, like, older women to do that. And they're not doing that.

You know, and all the women who are leading their Bible studies, they're not even remotely teaching them how to do the dishes. And teaching them how to cook and clean.

In fact, they all laugh at that and mock that, as if they need more of that, while, like, their house is an absolute train wreck and a mess.

Like, the fact is, we need older women to do that, to teach younger women how to be domestic. Like, particularly because a lot of them don't have moms that taught them how to do it.

They need to teach them how to do that kind of thing that doesn't come natural. But, like, that doesn't need to be done in the context of the corporate worship gathering every week on the

Lord's Day. That is the kind of thing that's ongoing discipleship, you know, during the week kind of thing.

And it has nothing to do with what we're talking about whatsoever. But the point there is just to say that, like, if you were to...

What needs to happen in this kind of discussion is we need to, like... What we have is you have a bunch of churches that haven't been run by the

Bible, period, you know? So your standard SBC church is just run by deacons.

And it's like, have you ever read the Bible before? You know that deacon is a servant. It's not an authoritative role at all.

They're being run by deacons, and they're basically run through majority vote. And they're filled with committees and everything else.

So we just don't have an ecclesiology, and we don't know what we're doing. And we're just taking our cues from what these big churches are that seem to be successful and get people in the door.

And we're just pragmatic, you know? But this isn't like a biblical case. If you were to think about what the

Bible was saying at that point, what you would come away with is that God wants the teaching office in the church to be restricted to qualified men.

And we need to chuck the vast majority of the things that we're doing, all these programs that we're doing, and all these activities that we're doing, and keep it simple, and just do the things that God calls us to do.

And the idea that everything should be age -segregated and gender -segregated is just nonsense, man.

And most of what we're doing, we would get radically a lot simpler if we would just do what the

Bible says. Right, right. Now, the second point of contention is what

I have seen a lot more people putting out there, especially the lean left and the

SBC that are typically progressive. And that is, you know, and we mentioned this earlier, but we didn't really flesh it out.

And that point of contention is basically just, you know, when it comes to defining the term pastor or the role pastor, apparently, you know, there's a disagreement on whether or not the role of pastor is defined by the function, meaning, you know, like the specific responsibilities you take on as a pastor and whatnot, or is it, does the word pastor refer to a gifting, a gifting, right?

So, someone who is, you know, specially equipped, you know, to teach, to explain the

Bible, you know, to lead people, whatever. So, is it a gifting, or is it, yeah, an office, or a function, right?

You know, this is not a, you know, this is not a debate, but it's not a,

I mean, it's not a serious debate. I mean, this is not, like, something that is, like, a live question. This is a joke, you know?

Like, so, I want to register, like, my scandal at, like, that this is even treated as a serious question, okay?

So, this is a dumb question. Like, this is not, like, this is not, like, a mature, thoughtful, nuanced discussion.

This is just being an idiot, okay? Okay. So, there's some discussions along those lines that you don't want to dignify as if they're actually discussions.

And, like, if this is a legitimate discussion, then, like, this is just irrefutable proof that the

SPC is absolutely a dumpster fire that, you know, everyone should abandon, you know?

And I'm happy to say that that's probably true, that we're talking about a dumpster fire here at this point.

But, I mean, there are some questions that are not, like, serious questions, and this kind of thing is not a serious question. Like, so, and I don't want to treat it as if it's a serious question.

It's not. Like, it's not a serious question. It's nothing. I mean, I could, you know, I could, if I have, you know, made millions of dollars off of a book, and I want to, you know, basically be nuanced and justify my rebellion against the

Bible, then there's a lot of people that are going to treat it as serious because money talks, right?

Right. The only reason why this is being treated seriously is because money talks. It's not because it's, like, a serious discussion of the

Bible. So, when you look at, like, the thing is, like, what's happened is, like, the SPC has informally made this kind of distinction for a long time.

And so, it feels to people as if this is something that's, like, a serious discussion because they've made that kind of distinction between, like, a gifting and an office.

So, they've had many women who have, or are functionally operating as elders in a wide variety of ways, in a wide variety of situations for years.

And so, what's happened is that that's become normal to them, okay? Like, that's normal to put women in roles that are designed for men.

And they've done it for years and years and years because all, what they've done is they've redefined, like, they've made up new roles, right?

So, like, a committee member. Like, the Bible doesn't say anything about committees, right? But then, if you make up a committee and you put a woman on it, like, then that woman could be, you know, teaching and exercising authority over men in that kind of context.

And no one thinks twice because you made up a role. And then, basically, it's just like, well, the Bible doesn't say anything about who should be on committees, man, you know?

But, like, that's not serious. Like, that's not a serious point that's being made. What's happening is that's just the mechanism you're using to violate the

Bible, right? Mm -hmm. Yeah, so, you're trying to find a loophole. Right, and that's what they've done with the seminaries.

That's what they've done at every single conceivable level is you just make up new things, right? And then you say, well, the

Bible doesn't talk about this specifically. And it's like Jack Handy's deep thought that you just had, right? And it's just like, oh, this is, you know, what do we do about this?

Like, we need it. Like, it's not clear. The Bible's not clear. It's like, well, no, the Bible's absolutely clear.

Like, that there are pastors that he's called and equipped to do certain things. And so, like, the issue is you have two approaches to this kind of discussion.

Like, you have a sufficiency of the Scripture approach. And the sufficiency of the Scripture approach says the Bible's sufficient about what

God wants to happen in His church. And if the Bible's sufficient, then what you need, like, what you do with that kind of perspective is you say, the

Bible's given us everything we need to know in order to run a church, right? And so what you do, like, when you go that route, then you look at the things the

Bible says to do. And you see the Bible's called men to be elders and overseers and shepherds and pastors, you know, and fathers in the faith.

Like, God has called men to do that. And so, and Bible said that, you know, the

Bible, God says that I do not permit a woman and teacher have authority over men.

So, meaning, like, you can, if you're going to run a church with the Bible being viewed as sufficient, then you're going to say, well, what are the offices that He's given?

Let's give those individuals the responsibilities that are afforded to those offices.

And let's not give those responsibilities to other people who do not meet the qualifications. Now, when you, like, do that over a long period of time and you start giving away those responsibilities and giving away those, creating new positions and giving away those responsibilities, then you end up with a mess.

And then you have to, like, at some point justify the mess that you've made. But the issue is you made that mess, like the

Bible. It's not the Bible's unclear. Like, you made a mess because you created a bunch of positions that are not in the

Bible. And then you're using those positions in order to violate the clear intention of the scripture.

Okay? And so, like, you make all these new positions. So, at this point, like, this distinction between function or this distinction between gifting and office, this is not a serious discussion that's being had.

Like, this is, like, individuals who've been in high -handed rebellion against the Bible for many years now trying to make sense of what they've done.

Okay? And what they've done is created a mess that's led to confusion. Right? So, it's like –

Yeah, they realize then they have to show the math and they don't know how. Right, right. And so, then it's like, if you're in a situation where it's like, hey, you know, like, we've had women pastoring other women for years.

Right? Mm -hmm. And that's obviously okay because we've done it. Right? Okay? There's no way we could be wrong on that.

Right? So, no one wants to say that women can't, you know, teach other women the Bible in the context of Lord's Day gathering.

Right? I mean, because, like, that's a no -brainer. And so, then what do we do with that? Like, we need some rationale for why that must be okay.

But then I'm just looking at them and saying, hey, maybe that's not okay. Right? Mm -hmm. Like, maybe you did that – like, why did you do that?

Like, you need to stop for a second and think to yourself, why did you do that? And did you do that because that's something you found in the

Bible? Or did you do that because, like, you're living in a culture right now that basically has embraced standpoint epistemology that basically doesn't think that a woman has the ability to, like, learn from a man?

And you know what? It's probably because you've embraced standpoint epistemology. And because every single time, like, you have a

Mother's Day sermon, you're, like, falling all over yourself and embarrassed and afraid to speak to women's issues because you think that you're totally and utterly unqualified to speak to these issues because you've embraced a secular theory that's warped your brain.

Despite the fact that, you know, Paul felt very confident talking to women and telling them what to do.

Right. And Peter did. And Jesus did. Right? And they don't seem to be embarrassed about any of that.

And so, like, so what's happened is, like, you have, like, a church that has, like, violated a biblical ecclesiology at every single point.

And it doesn't dawn them that they need to – like, what is inconceivable at this point is that we need – like, we've done so much that's violated the

Bible in every single way and now we're going to have to utterly change everything that we're doing. But then, like, that's the point.

The point is, like, the right path forward is not just to say no to Saddleback.

The right path forward is to absolutely rethink everything that we're doing as a church. Like, as your standard

American evangelical church. And they don't want to go there. And so, like, the end result is that, well, we have to now – like, what must be the

Bible is unclear on these things. Not because the Bible is actually unclear, it's just because you don't like what it says. And you've found loopholes, right?

And now after you've created a hundred loopholes to everything that it says, you're in a mess. And you have to figure out, well, how do

I get myself out of this mess, right? And so, like, Rick Warren is just – like, the thing about Rick Warren is he's just – he's consistent.

And, like, the guys who were arguing with him, I don't think they're very consistent at all. I don't think that they're the kind of guys who want to shut down all the women

Bible studies. Like, I don't. Like, so I think he's actually consistent.

He knows what – like, he's bringing it to the logical outcome. And, like, that's the point.

Like, this is the logical outcome of where he's been taking you for years. And, like, nothing new that's happening.

He's not going liberal, okay? Like, it's not like he's – he's not even becoming progressive.

This is the logical outcome of the secret sensitive movement. That's what it is. And so now, like, the only way to fix it is to totally rethink everything you know about the church.

And to rethink it with a Bible in hand is the point. Right. Instead of purpose -driven life.

Right, right. And, you know, like, I know that that book sold 40 million copies. But, like, you have to rethink it with a

Bible in your hand. And if you say, I believe in the Bible is sufficient. I mean, this is – you know, man,

I've been in, like, denominational meetings with denominational leaders. And, you know, your standard

Southern Baptist does not believe the Bible has anything to say, like, sufficiently about how a church is governed.

Like, it's all pragmatic, man. It's all pragmatic. And, like, everything – and it has to be by definition because all the things they're doing are nowhere to be found in the

Bible. Right? Right, right. Children's church, not in the Bible. Youth ministry, not in the

Bible. Youth pastor, not in the Bible. Worship pastor, not in the Bible. You know, female pastor, you know, female, you know, like,

Bible studies, not in the Bible. They're not there, man. Like, they're not there. None of it's there. Right, right.

You know, authoritative deacons, not there. You know, voting as a church, not there.

Okay? Like, none of it's there. You know, I kind of wonder if the books like purpose -driven life are actually the

Bible for those – for a lot of the people in this. Well, it is because the God is pragmatism and the

God is numbers, you know. Right. Like, you know, I went to, you know, I went to Master's College in California, now it's

Master's University. But, you know, going from there to going to the SBC, I was concerned that, you know, the

SBC, I grew up always, you know, they're always so numbers -focused and everything else. But, you know,

I was persuaded that Al Mohler had turned the ship around and it was all great and it was all wonderful and everything else.

But, I mean, like, their God is numbers, right? I mean, going to – How many baptisms?

Yeah, I mean, it's just numbers, man. Numbers, numbers, numbers. Like, how many baptisms, how many decisions for Christ. You know, like, they –

Southern, when I went there, and this was, you know, 2007 or something like that. But, I mean,

I don't think anything has changed. But, I mean, they have a Billy Graham school of church growth, man.

Like, they – You don't remember that in the Bible? No. You must have skipped that chapter.

Yeah. Like, the thing is, man, like, this is a – like, you go to – you take, you know, classes within that school and it's just as pragmatic as you get.

You know, they may have good theology for the most part in their school of theology, but, you know, their Billy Graham school of church growth.

Like, it's just – it's pragmatism. It's pure pragmatism. They've lost the Bible for years, man. And so, like, that's what's happened.

They've lost the Bible. They don't even know what it says about anything related to ecclesiology. They don't believe it's sufficient about what we should be doing with our ecclesiology.

It's pure pragmatism. And so, like, Rick Warren is just – he's just doing – he's just the next step.

Like, the next logical step, you know. The pioneer. Yeah. I mean, and it's not inconsistent with where the church already is right now.

Like, the issue is that, you know, all the guys who are saying, hey, this is a step too far. I'm just looking at them saying, that's the next step, logically.

And, like, you're no better than him. Like, you're not. Like, this is just the next logical step. You've been violating everything the

Bible says about ecclesiology for years. And so, like, this is – like, you're not innocent in this discussion.

And so, you might not want to – like, the thing is, like, what does it matter? Like, what in the world? Like, why does it matter whether or not you call a woman a pastor if you are – like, if she is doing everything a pastor is called to do within a church anyways?

Right? So, your standard SBC church, they have women pastors. They just don't call them that.

But they're women pastors. They're doing everything a pastor should do. They're spiritual leaders of a group of women who are doing everything a pastor should be doing.

They're their primary disciple givers because these women don't want to listen to men. Okay? Like, they don't.

You know? They want, like, the Bible from a woman. All right? And what you typically get from that is a bunch of stories and a bunch of emotions and a bunch of excuses, like, to not do what's actually in there.

And so, like, they've done that for years, and they just don't – you know, they put women on committees for years.

Like, they put women in authoritative roles for years. Like, it's just – they don't have the spine to call it what it is.

You know? And so, if there's anything I appreciate about Rick Warren is that –

The silver lining. Yeah, is that he's at least honest about what he's doing, you know? Yeah. Like, in a way that their standard

SBC church member is not. Like, you're doing the same thing he's doing. You just don't have the stones to call it a pastor.

Right? But that's what it is. Sort of like how the oftentimes Republicans are just Democrats from five or ten years ago.

Right. Yeah, and that's essentially what it is. I mean, the SBC is a pragmatic denomination to its core.

You know, it is – that's what it is. It's been that way for years. Nothing has changed. You know, every single, you know, one of these conventions bears the same point out.

I mean, it's been embarrassing for years. It's been humiliating for years. You know, like, it's been that way.

It's just a circus. It's a freak show, you know? And it's been that way for years, man.

Like, it's just absolutely humiliating and embarrassing to go to every year. And, like, what you hear is, like, you know,

I question the people who can go to that wretched place and, like, not feel deeply disturbed and troubled in their soul by going there.

And, I mean, there's nothing new that's happening. It's just this is the way it's been for a long time. But, like, he's just, you know, he's just being honest about it.

That's the point about what he's doing. And this is – I mean, it's obviously, like, you've had women pastors for years in the

SPC. Why don't you call them it? So, you know, just, yeah, be honest about it. Yeah. Now, did you have a little more?

What I'm concerned about is, like, if they were to shut it down, what does it matter? Like, what in the world does it matter?

Who cares, right? Like, I don't care if they shut that down. They're still going to do the same thing. They're just not going to call it what it is.

If they shut what down? Like, if they were to, like, kick him out of that, right? Oh, disfellowship

Saddleback. Yeah, if they were to kick Rick Warren out. Hey, for context, Saddleback Church, I'm pretty sure, is the largest church in the

SPC denomination right now. Yeah. I probably should have given that context on the front end, because I think that is a pretty important point in all of this.

You know, they're essentially the rich guy, right? They bring in a lot of dollars. They bring in a lot of notoriety to the

SPC. Money talks, man. But, I mean, if they were to kick him out, I could care less.

Like, it's not a victory. Like, at least, like, that's honest about, like, what

I'm trying to say is, like, what they need to do is, like, this is a problem that's happening at every single level within the

SPC. And, like, all that would happen if you kick him out is, like, you're playing pretend.

Okay? So, it's like, why is that, like, you know, it's like, you know, imagine an open marriage or something like that, right?

Yeah. Like, you know, at some point, it's just like, or imagine, like, you know, a couple who's fornicating with, you know, and they're not getting married or whatever else, right?

It's like, like, at some point, it's just like, alright, like, you're doing everything that a married couple is supposed to do, right?

Right. But you refuse to have the commitment that marriage is.

You refuse to do so in the context of a covenant. So, like, that name matters, right? That name matters.

Like, now, let's say that you have an open relationship where, like, you're gonna, like, as a married couple, like, show all the benefits of marriage to someone outside of that marriage covenant.

And so, like, what does it matter if you go all the way and call them a wife? Like, a second wife.

Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. So, like, let's say you have a church that's just openly advocating polygamy.

It's just like, oh, that's a bridge too far. You can't call them a wife. But then, like, every single one of the churches within the denomination is essentially has, like, a second woman that is functioning like a wife.

What does it matter? Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. So, like, if you shut that down, that's just an exercise in hypocrisy at that point.

Uh -huh. Like, all you did was just basically, like, you're just hypocritically covering your sin at that point.

You're pretending like you're on the right side. It's like you're not. Like, you're not. Okay? You're just scared to call it what it is.

You're scared to call it what it is. And so, like, if this is a victory, it doesn't matter. It's not a victory. Like, you're just, you're refusing to call the situation what it is.

Okay? And the situation is we have a lot, they have a lot of, like, female pastors in the

SBC already. And they refuse to call it that. Okay? Yeah. Now, you know, if Rick Warren comes along and wants to be the first to say, hey, let's call a spade a spade, it's like, yeah, well, he's right.

You know? Call it a spade then. You know? But then, like, you know, what is that going to mean?

Right? Like, does that mean that you're going to absolutely rethink everything that you think about women at this point in ministry?

No. Right? So, it's not a victory until you do that. Now, okay.

I have one more question that I want to talk about as it relates to defining pastor.

And that question is, you know, I've heard plenty of people teach that, and this kind of relates to the whole gifting, you know, versus office debate, quote unquote.

And what I've heard a lot of people say is essentially, you know, if you meet the qualifications that are given by Paul and Titus, 1

Timothy, if you meet that kind of stuff, then God is calling you to be a pastor.

Right? So, I've heard plenty of people say, hey, like, do you feel called? You know? So, I guess not only is it do you meet the qualifications, but do you have, like, this secret, you know, something in you that you think is

God telling you that you have to be a pastor. Right? I went to one of the

SBC schools, and this was something that was definitely sort of, I mean, I took a whole class, and half the class was just talking about that.

Right? And I pushed back every single time we talked about it. And thankfully, my professor didn't just outright fail me for not agreeing, but he definitely, you know, made it known that he didn't agree with my view on it.

But it just kind of feels like in the SBC, it's basically just assumed that the way you figure out if you are meant to be a pastor or not is whether or not you feel quote unquote called.

Right? Whatever that means. And normally, it just means, like, do you have a special, like, feeling inside of you that is indescribable?

You know, I can't define it for you, but if you've got it, you know what it is kind of thing.

Right? And essentially, what's being implied there is if you have that, and then you say,

I'm not going to become a pastor, then no one says, like, hey, you're in sin.

Yeah. Implied, yes, you are. You are. Right? Yeah. Like, the implication is you actually are, because what's happening, you're getting, you know, essentially like a direct word from God, and you're acting like Jonah.

Right? You're running the other way. Right, right. Right? So, you know, if Jonah was in sin for running the other way, then you've got to be in sin too for running the other way, if that's how it works.

So, my question to you is, is that actually how it works? Because I notice in that, and I can't remember if it's 1

Timothy 3 or if it's Titus, but one of them, you know, Paul says the person who, the man who desires the office of overseer desires a good thing.

Sure. Right? So, it seems like that's different than what they're describing.

Sure. Am I right in that assumption, or are they right in saying, hey, the office of pastor, you know, if you want to be an elder, then it is this certain, like, you have to feel called.

You don't have, you can't just be qualified, you have to be called, whatever that means. Yeah, yeah, there's, it may be that we need to do an episode on, like, the call to ministry at a certain point to kind of ferret some of those things out, but you have what individuals describe as, like, the internal call and the external call.

And the external call is essentially an offer to ministry, and then an internal call is, like, basically a charismatic way of talking about, like, some inner subjective prompting of the

Holy Spirit that, you know, is quasi -revelatory essentially. So, it's, like, personal subjective revelation to an individual, and the

SBC is kind of one of the leading drivers of this kind of confusion at that point.

And so, like, between the internal call and the external call. And, you know, I would say that the internal call is not a thing biblically.

You have what you describe as external call. But then, the Bible doesn't speak of, like, an internal call meaning a command.

So, what happens is, like, as you read through the Old Covenant, Old Testament, you know,

God calls by name, Basilel and Aholiab to, you know, build the tabernacle, certain parts of the tabernacle.

And that call is kind of like a commissioning to service. And so, like, in that call language with the

Old Testament prophets, there's an implied command to go do something. But then, to the prophets, it was audible, right?

And so, what's happening is you have, like, a quasi -charismatic, like, mystical corruption of, like, this audible orders from God, right?

To what you now describe as some kind of inner, you know, command. And so, like, this inner command, like, is revelatory, meaning, like, if a person experiences inner command, right?

It's, like, coming apart from the scripture. It's just subjectively to the individual. But then, what happens there in that kind of framework is, like, when people think about it that way is, you know, they may not be qualified.

They may not fit the biblical qualifications at all. But they feel this internal, you know, calling that, you know, command from God that is both like a command, meaning they better do it or else they're in sin.

But then, it's also kind of a promise of some sort of future opportunity, right? And I know many people who, you know, went to seminary because they felt called to the ministry, only to never be given pastoral jobs, okay?

Because, like, they misread that thing, you know, at some point.

And maybe they were emotional and, you know, wanted to turn their life around and figured the only way to do it was to be a pastor and everything else.

But, like, so, but then part of how that relates to the broader discussion is, like, you have women. Like, if there is this, such a thing as this internal call, then, like, people have to obey that, right?

And so, when you make up that kind of category, it's not the Bible. There's not, like, an inner call in the Bible. You have a man who desires an office of an overseer.

He has a noble task. If you desire to do it, that's great, but you need to see if you're scripturally qualified to do it, right?

Right, right. And you have to have, you know, godly men come alongside you and commission you to that for that to even be real, okay?

So, like, desire is fine. It's neither here nor there. It doesn't mean anything. It's just something you might want to pursue and test, okay?

But then, like, because people view it in the charismatic way, and it is a very much of a stronghold. Like, the

SBC is filled with that kind of thing. It's the norm. It's the norm.

And not only is it the norm, they're hostile to the idea that they made that up, too, right? Right. Like, they're very hostile to that.

You know, I've been asked, like, countless times to explain my call to ministry, and I'm just saying, well, you know,

I desired at some point to teach the Bible. And so,

I tried to start being useful in the church, and, you know, a lot of people encouraged me to consider doing it, you know?

So, that was it. But that didn't feel, you know, like a deep burning inside my chest where I know that I know that I know that I know that I need to be a pastor or else

I'm in sin kind of thing. Yeah. But, like, the thing is, though, like, if that's there, then women say they feel the same thing, and then that's why, well, who are we?

You know, if the thing is from the Lord, you know, Laban says, you know, who are we to say one way or the other, right?

Right. If a woman has a burning, you know, in her chest, just like I have a burning in my chest, better give her some opportunity to do it, right?

And so, like, that's – but then it's just like, well, you know, no one wants to say that that burning isn't real, right?

Right. And so, then, like, that's why you're in the discussion as it relates to ladies, too, and you do have to rethink, you know, everything you think about the call to ministry, even.

But maybe we need to do a podcast on that at some point. Yeah, I mean, that's a – you're right when you say that people are just outright hostile to the idea that they've made that up.

I mean, like I said, I had to take a whole class where, you know, probably half of it was just talking about, like, calls to ministry and whatnot, and we had to write papers about it, you know, that were essentially, like, what you're saying, describe your call to ministry.

And so, I had a hard time. Well, good luck showing that from the

Bible, man. Like, what you have to do is you have to take, like, literal, audible, verbal commands

God gave to specific individuals and turn them into still, small voice, quasi -mystical promptings.

And it's just like, this is, like, not exegesis that I'm doing to make this up anymore.

I've left the realm of Bible exegesis and I've now gone to, you know, charismatic spiritualizing.

But I wouldn't do that with any other doctrine. Why am I doing it with this? And the only reason why is because there's a lot of pastoral mythology that has developed around this idea of something that gets turned into something that is largely influenced by the charismatic movement.

It's just like, do I need, like, Jesus to, like, appear to me shaving in my heart somehow?

Like, and tell me that I better be a pastor or else I'm a failure at life for you to think that maybe I should be a pastor of a church?

It's like, well, I don't want to make up something that didn't happen, okay? Right. But then, like, if you don't have that kind of story, like, you're a standard

Southern Baptist person, like, I've got almost talking to you, you know, or just as good at talking to you.

It's just like, are we charismatic? What's going on here, you know? Right. But if you don't have that, like,

I've had plenty of people who are like, you are not qualified to be a pastor because you don't have that.

It's like, I'm literally a cessationist, man, you know? Like, I don't talk like that, okay?

Right. You know, like, we don't talk that way, you know? Like, we don't. We don't do that around here.

We don't do that kind of thing, you know? If I start talking that way, I want you to stone me, okay? If I'm telling you the still small voice promptings, impressions in my heart, even when it comes to a call to ministry, please pick up rocks and stone me to death, okay?

Like, that's the point. Like, I would rather die than talk that way, you know? Yeah. You know, the funny thing is,

I wish I could – I didn't think to look up whatever the book was that we had for that – or one of the books that we had to go through for that class.

But I remember we had to write a report on it, and I was trying to, like, refute all that stuff, you know?

And basically say, like, hey, here – like, do the assignment in the sense of, like, all right, here is what the author claims is, you know, a call to ministry or whatever.

And then talk about, like, I don't agree with what he's saying. And, you know,

I would typically have, like, a small section at the end of my paper that's essentially like, all right, what were the good things about this book?

What are the, you know, bad things about this book? And, I mean, one of the bad things – I remember saying one of the bad things about the book was there was no scriptural justification for any of those claims that it's a call or whatever.

There weren't even, like, there weren't even really, like, you know, here's stories, you know, from the

Old Testament or something that were taken out of context. There was a few, but there wasn't a lot. And I remember saying, like, hey, there's just no scripture to back up any of the – here's some scripture to back up what

I'm saying, but there's none that the author used to back it up. And the response I got was essentially, well, at the beginning of the book he says, you know, he's not trying to use scripture to back this up.

And it's like, oh, well, all right, man. Because he can't, you know, you can't. That settles it. It's not there.

It's not there, man, you know. But, okay, well, that's really all the questions

I have for you, Tim. Is there anything that maybe we didn't talk about or do you want to – is there anything you want to, you know, summarize to close us out?

Yeah, no, I don't think we should be surprised by the SBC and, like, where they're at right here.

And I think, you know, when I observe what's happening on Twitter is you have a lot of people who seem to be scandalized, like, over and over and over again by the kind of things that are happening with the

SBC. And I just – I want to look at them and just say, hey, you know, what color is this guy in your world, you know? Like, seriously, like,

I mean, this is a cesspool of iniquity, man. I mean, I went to SBTS and it's supposed to be, you know, the best

Southern Baptist school out there or whatever. And they were selling heresy in the bookstore when

I was there. I mean, this is a denomination that's deeply compromised. And, like, you know,

I think a lot of people are just unfamiliar with, like, the circus that is the convention every year.

And I would just say, like, we need to quit being scandalized by this. Like, this is just – this is a circus.

This is a pragmatic denomination. This is a denomination that could care less about what the Bible says on any of this stuff.

Like, if they did, like, they would rethink a lot of what they're doing at that point.

And, like, you shouldn't be surprised anymore. Like, this is who these people are, you know? And, like, what happens is, like, you know,

I think you have, like, this myth that, like, everyone – like, you know, the vast majority of SBC churches are just solid churches.

And, like, the convention's just, you know, bought by powerful people or something. And it's like, that's just not true, man.

Like, the vast majority of the SBC is not just solid churches who are teaching the Bible out there. Like, they're just churches that want to be the big churches and can't.

Okay? And they bought the same kind of methodology. You have a bunch of churches that are pragmatic to the core, and they're doing everything the big churches are doing.

They're just not doing them as well. Okay? So people don't want to go there because they're not doing it as well. But they bought the same stuff, and that's what they're doing.

I'm not saying that there's not any, like, solid churches out there. But, like, they're few and far between. Like, I can't tell you – like,

I don't know any SBC churches I would really even want to go to, you know? One hand, the amount of SBC churches

I would consider going to. And, like, in any location I've ever been at, like,

I can't think of any in Birmingham I want to go to. I can't think of any, like, in past locations

I want to go to. It's just like, they're not – like, if you're a person who likes the

Bible and takes it seriously, and, you know, you don't want all the programs, you don't want all the activities, you don't want all the circus, you don't want all the entertainment, you don't – like, this is not the place for you, okay?

So, like, this is who they are. Like, they're pragmatic people. And, like, they're people who – like, they're – like, you know, coming from, like, a master's university, going to the

SBC, it was, like – like, I was astonished by, like, your standard – like, the standard mood of the place, you know?

It's all celebrity -driven, it's all, like, brown -nose, like, the higher -ups in order to get the positions, and, you know, it's just like – you know, like, a lot of the guys

I was talking to at seminary are just, like, their brains don't work, and, like, they're – like, they're just people who want to kiss butt and get ahead, okay?

And, like, that was strong in the SBC culture to where you just – like, compromise is part of the deal.

Like, compromise is just assumed, like, as the normal state of affairs that you just overlook stuff and make the peace, and, you know, treat rank heretics as beloved brothers and give them hugs at conventions.

Like, that's the culture that's there. And, like, I – you know, I think that anyone who is wanting to take the

Bible seriously, you need to find a new home, you know, as far as that goes. And so, you know, I think as it relates to this discussion, like, is there some kind of distinction between office and gifting?

Yeah, I mean, this is what they're doing in order to, like, try to make sense of all the compromises that they've made on these same subjects over the years.

And I would say that, like, I don't – like, what is frustrating to me is not – like,

I mean, you can kick Rick Warren out and none of it matters. Like, you're in a scenario where you basically have a church culture that has violated everything the

Bible says about women in leadership for years. And now it's just, like, if you do that, all you're doing is, like, giving you cover to keep the status quo.

And the status quo has to change, you know, like, that's the point. Like, the status quo has to change. And that just makes you pat yourself on the back and say, oh, we believe the

Baptist faith and message or whatever, because we, you know, we draw the line at calling our female pastors female pastors, right?

Right, right. And it's like that, man, you've been – you have female pastors already, and you just don't call them what they are.

And so, like, you know, I don't care to give you cover and, like, make you into the good guy because you draw the line at calling them what they are.

I'd rather you get rid of them, you know? Mm -hmm. Yeah. But they're not going to do that. Like, that's not what's going to happen.

You know, so, I mean, I'm not a prophet, though some are a prophet, but even if that went – you know, the best way, the best way is just you're going to continue to cover for a bunch of shameful things that are happening.

Right, right. It is a denomination that's run by women and children. You know, women – like, it is.

That is absolutely true. You know, almost every conflict I've ever been in in an SBC church has been over children's ministry.

Mm -hmm. It is a denomination where you have a bunch of people in child -centered homes who believe it's, like, a church's job to give their kids whatever they want.

Because they've been, like, corrupted at public school all week long and now they don't love Jesus, you know, and it's your job to give them a volleyball and entertain them.

You know, it is a denomination run by women and children for sure. Yeah. You know, and the men there are, you know, spineless, you know, cowards.

Right. Well, there you have it, SBC. Cancel the committee. Don't worry about the year -long bill that you're planning on racking up trying to figure out what a pastor is.

Just, you know, if you still don't know what it is after listening to this episode, just do us a favor and hit the replay button and listen to it again.

But all of that aside, this is – it's really just silly.

Even recording this episode, talking about what is a pastor. But I'm glad that we can sit down and, you know, spell out these, what

I would assume are really – what I think are probably the, you know, the spiritual milk type things.

Right. What is a pastor? That feels like spiritual milk. And I would really – I don't know if you agree with this,

Tim, but I would really just say if there's people out there that are genuinely, genuinely asking themselves, you know, what is a pastor?

I don't know what it is. Specifically talking about the SBC leaders. Yeah, I don't blame them if they've been in an

SBC church their whole life. And like it – yeah, I can see how it's confusing if you've been in an SBC church your whole life because you have a lot of, you know, obviously you have a lot of people doing a lot of things that feel very pastoral.

Right. Right. And so, like, for that kind of person, I understand how it could be confusing. But then the point, though, is just to say, hey, you open up your

Bible and it's not all that confusing anymore. Right. But you're going to have to stand against, like, the entire

SBC church culture at that point. Oh, yeah. There will be opposition. Yeah. Massive opposition. And that's –

I mean, that's hard, you know, because it's like, how can they all be so wrong? It's like, well, I mean, where – you have to go to the

Word and say, where are you finding any of the things they're doing in the Bible? And if you go to the

Word, you're going to find that a lot of the things they're doing are nowhere to be found. Right. Yeah. They're just made up.

Right. And, you know, I think the people that are – especially, really what

I'm talking mostly about is the people that are at the top of a convention. If they're genuinely asking, what is a pastor?

We can't determine what a pastor is. They just don't need to be a pastor. They need to step down.

I mean, if you can't define it, you're not going to be able to fill the role faithfully. And so that's just – that's my thoughts on that.

But they don't. They need to step down. They really do, man. No, I agree. I agree.

I mean, it's like they don't – I mean, they're not pastors. They're like CEOs, you know? Yeah. They're like – they don't know what a pastor is.

Right. Like, you know, they're pastoring these churches of people that they are not shepherding, you know? Right. Like, they think it's okay to preach to them from a video screen from across town.

Like, these are those kind of people. They have no clue what a pastor is. And they don't have any idea whatsoever.

Like, nothing they say – I mean, so they are totally – not only they don't know what they're doing, they're unfaithful to what they're doing, you know, is the problem.

Right. So all that to say, you know, we really do want to do an episode just on the state of the

SBC in general. And so that's something that we're working on, and hopefully we'll be able to get out in the next few weeks or so.

But we really wanted to be able to talk about, like, let's just isolate this. What is a pastor?

Right. And talk about that, because that's a very concerning question that has to be asked right now.

And so we wanted to – and I also want to say, I do think, like you're saying,

Tim, I do think there is a difference between the standard church member and the

SBC, who's not a leader as far as, like, a pastor or really even a deacon.

But just the standard SBC church member,

I don't know that at this point I really even blame them if they can't define it.

I think they should be able to, but when you look at the leadership that's out there right now and the way that things have been done, it's hard to hold that against them totally, right?

And so when I'm saying this stuff about – If they start reading their Bible a little bit more, then they should be troubled.

They would realize. They would be troubled and they would want to leave. Right, right. But really the condemnation is really pointed mostly towards the people at the top, because they have the most responsibility and they're just floundering.

So all that to say, hopefully this has been a really helpful episode for you. And maybe you're one of those people that is in the

SBC right now and you have been confused about what exactly is a pastor. Well, hopefully some of these definitions have helped you.

And really more than anything, my hope at least is that it clarifies just how simple the subject matter is.

It's not hard. It's not complicated. It's not rocket science. We're not talking about some of the more lofty theological concepts here.

We're talking about what is a pastor. And it should be pretty straightforward, but apparently in the

SBC it's not. So hopefully this has been encouraging for you guys. We want to thank all of you for listening, for supporting us so much.

And it's really a joy and a pleasure to be able to serve in this way and help equip the saints for the works of ministry.

So we thank you guys and we look forward to having you on the next one. This has been another episode of Bible Bashed.

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Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.