Mega Dividing Line to Celebrate New Set Up!

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:32

And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday, Tuesday afternoon. Yes, I know what time it is

00:39

Tuesday afternoon and We are really just hoping to survive this program

00:47

Mainly because we have a brand new camera sitting there. It's not one of those little webcams

00:53

This is one of those high -end HD professional Type cameras which means

01:00

I really have to be careful what I do now you know, I kind of thing and It's gonna see everything and that's not good

01:08

I don't know anybody wants to watch now right now that we're doing the stuff with the cordons and things like that I guess that's a that's cool the rest of them and We also have we also have

01:19

Our new book bookshelf back here, and I've got more meaningful interesting books over there

01:26

I mean, we've still got Codex Sinaiticus for all the conspiracy folks so you can you know and Oh, that's a that's a really important over there a set of And I have

01:38

I have a monitor I can see now which is when you see me looking like this I'm looking at the monitor that I can now see what you see first time that's happened

01:46

And we got a whole the main thing is we have a whole new computer. It's running all this So sometime over the next half hour

01:53

Bill Gates gonna send an update down and the whole thing's gonna die Just That's what's gonna happen

01:59

You know how many little pops and and things you have to click and things like that in a new computer it

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It happens, you know, but that's a set of Oh Who is that?

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Mukatil or something like that Anyways, it's a very very early Tafsir Not Tafsir hadith collection actually

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Well, no, it is Tafsir, isn't it? Yeah anyway That's important stuff and then sit next to Calvin's Institute's which will like make somebody angry.

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I'm sure but so anyways, and then Back behind me here. I've got the fourth edition of the textual criticism book with Metzger and and ermine so that obviously proves my utter apostasy right there, but anyhow, and so we've it's just everything's different and I'm Starting to put my pictures back up.

02:55

I've got the little Father's Day thing that my daughter did for me. I don't know how long ago.

03:01

We got that back up there it's it's way it's way up higher than it was before but it's it's up there and so we're slowly working on stuff and I Have my triple

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Yeah, it you don't think it's a triple watch That's how

03:23

I know if I'm interviewing someone they're a Klingon or not, how else would I know? I mean if they've been if they've been surgically altered, but I have my trouble

03:32

So the only hand that disappoints me about my trouble is that you can do this all you want and it won't go

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It's it's a shame. So I maybe someday I'll come up with the trouble that actually dribbles instead of just going

03:46

Come on and it shakes when did that do you see it vibrating?

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We won't do it again. Anyway, so I've got my trouble and so We're ready to go. We're ready to go

04:01

What oh Okay. All right. You just we're looking a little bit a little bit strange. I'm just enjoying that you're enjoying the element

04:08

Enjoying the element. Yes. Yes. Well, it definitely looks completely and since we started this mess out six months ago about actually seven

04:18

We started youtubing well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and when we started out we tried to logitech cameras same time and They would not get along together.

04:30

Oh, that's true. Yeah, of course with that other machine, but see now oh That's right.

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So it doesn't look as cool where you are is where I am. No, it's well we we made it very cool for you

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Yeah, that's that's sort of a hallway actually People kind of go by and it's more like a breezeway my my office is right there

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So right to the right of that. We have that voice of the martyrs thing on the wall right outside my office

04:57

So anybody wants to yeah, there's a place. Yeah right over there. That's where my office. There you go, right?

05:03

Anyhow, so we are fancy schmancy You're supposed to be able to go back to me now

05:10

Yeah, I want to Okay, oh

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I'm seeing all sorts of things here Whoa, very crisp image doc lots of me nice new setup

05:31

You no longer look like a prisoner meeting with visitors in a safe room And My favorite part is that the paint color actually looks like the true paint color rather than orange, which it's not oh

05:45

Okay, well who knows what the true paint color is anyways spiced very spiced berry.

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Yeah, it's nice very yeah And then Hector else's what in the world is that furball gross looks like something you pull out

05:58

Okay, when the pipes get clogged you are not a

06:04

Trekkie. I can tell because all Trekkies love troubles Except those who think that they're

06:12

The hammer is there just what hammer well, they must have they must have seen the Must have seen the overhead.

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Yeah, there is it. Yeah, you're gonna There's the hammer. Yeah. Okay, actually

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I was gonna try to put up Let's gonna try to put some other my pictures on this wall and over there

06:30

We discovered that in the entirety of this entire office After all the construction and everything else we've done we found one nail

06:41

There's one that's Couldn't really get much else done. So we didn't so anyways welcome and Hopefully I've been getting a bunch of really really really positive feedback to the screen

06:55

Flow I call a screen roll ones. I think screen flow videos That I've been doing at home at the office and stuff

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Because there's just so easy to do I mean the big look the big time killer in doing videos is

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The editing I mean it just takes forever with screen flow. I just pop up Accordance, you know pop up a video.

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I want to respond to or something like that and I just record it move

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My video portion to where I want on the screen and say publish put in the title and walk away now

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For depending on how long the video was my system's gonna be pretty busy Rendering the video and then it automatically uploads it to YouTube and all as well.

07:43

So Those are cool, but we obviously can do the exact same thing and even more so here and That's what we will be doing today.

07:53

So what's what's on the plate today? Why might we even go mega? Distance say why it might be two hours.

07:59

Well It'll at least be jumbo And we'll see if we go mega it all depends

08:06

Three things need to get to well two things need to get to in a third if we if we've got time to do We need to finish up before we've completely forgotten what we were saying before the

08:17

Simon Gaffer Cole Bart Ehrman Unbelievable comments just I I think this is some of the most important Material that we can cover right now.

08:27

It has the longest. I think the longest value as far as the promulgation of the faith defense of the faith giving you as the listener a

08:40

Confidence to respond to this kind of stuff and Then we have just dragged out

08:46

Listening to the William Lane Craig Paul Helm thing just too long. We've got to finish it up I want to get those two done first and then if we have time

08:56

What I'm hearing from everyone do the screen roll videos is

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We really like when you've got the Greek up and you're going through it and you're talking about it.

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It has been a while now some of you who like One of these micro claws.

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It's always good to have around You should wash them more often than we do though. I have a feeling but they are good for cleaning things.

09:24

Um For some of you who've been around for a while you're gonna be like, oh, you know, I've heard this before But we just have so many people tuning in that have not tuned in before That I think it would be very useful to work through John chapter 6 again

09:40

And this time we can do it differently than we've ever able to do it before now I'm not saying we don't love all of you who listen via Podcast now and do not actually view things

09:54

I think that the program is still Usable in that way. I certainly listen to lots of videos while I ride

10:02

Today, I started listening to oh and that was Oh Remind me before we go to John 6 if I go to John 6 immediately

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I might have just chosen it. I did want to make a comment today About a book I started this morning on a run

10:17

Not a ride on a run. I Started running recently and I did a 7 -mile run this morning and I started listening to a brand just released book from a vineyard pastor

10:34

Basically documenting his move into a pro -homosexual stance and What I've discovered interestingly enough is

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I've explained to people before how when I ride and I listen to something when I hear things I my mind

10:50

Connects that to where I am on the ride. Well, guess what? Far stronger I discovered today while running

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I knew there was a certain quote that I wanted. I knew exactly where I was on the run when I heard it So as I was looking through the book, it was amazing.

11:06

I'd look at a page go. Okay. I was right there Hey next page. I was right there just I mean incredible index

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And it much more so than we're riding. I think because you're a little less distracted, you know You have you have to balance and stuff like that What you're watching it on your phone

11:24

Oh live on your phone Yeah, it's not completely live because my hands are moving.

11:30

Well, I'm not right now That's a slight delay yeah, like who is that guy his hands are moving over looks good looks clear.

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Yeah, that's that's cool anyway, so I want to make a quick comment about that before we go to John six, but We have so many folks tuning in that Working through the text and now being able to use accordance

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We're not trying to you know, get rid of all of you who listen in a different way but it just is a

12:00

There's obviously a next level you can go to in teaching Where you can you can put the text up there and I'm not just having to try to describe it and So that's what we'll be that's what we'll be doing.

12:13

So need to dive into it if we're going to get anywhere at all and So Hector's all excited.

12:21

Ah, oh how I wish you used Google Hangouts for these Why what's the

12:28

I don't know what the difference is the hammer is there just a case. Yeah, okay All right.

12:33

So I'm I am sort of keeping an eye on that, but I'm trying not to be completely distracted by let's let's dive into this here we are

12:43

For those of you who didn't hear it before you're gonna be a little bit lost but a couple of Weekend weekends ago

12:51

Bart Ehrman was in London he met in studio with Simon gather coal in the unbelievable studio with of course,

12:59

Justin Briarley and Once again, I like to think that we have helped

13:09

Justin Develop his American audience. I There are only a few webcasts that I listen to all the time

13:21

Unbelievable is one of them. I will admit that sometimes unbelievable makes me want to pull my hair out if I had any

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But Justin is is truly very very good at getting some high quality

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High powered people together for for programs and I've tried to be a good friend to Justin in the sense that he will tell you he's called me more than once on short notice

13:51

Could you do this that and the other thing and I've I've done so including

13:56

NT Wright and Brian McLaren both three days and four days notice with those two particular programs and So I highly recommend that you get unbelievable on your podcast list and and listen in and so They actually did two programs.

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I didn't really review the first program. It would have been worthwhile but I felt the second of the two programs really

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Zeroed in on the key issues and we started listening to this Because we could go today.

14:30

Yeah, we'd go today We did the first half and we should be able to very easily get the second half done here

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Once again, I'm playing this a little bit fast and so let's Here was a discussion we've we've moved to the point where again

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Bart Ehrman's idea is That and someone today

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I Won't use his name because I think he may still be in enrolled in that. No, he's not.

14:58

No, he's not enrolled I still use it. You know who you are. Someone sent me a link to a fuller prof

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Who has a lower he is a professor a fully theological seminary He has a lower

15:11

Christology than Bart Ehrman does tells you a little something about where you might want to be going to seminary but anyway

15:20

Bart Ehrman his position basically in this book is That Jesus is a pre -existent angel in Paul's theology

15:34

Not in Matthew Mark or Luke His whole thesis is that the

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New Testament is a jumbled mass of self -contradiction that there is no single view

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There is of course no harmonious view and that at least

15:50

Paul's perspective is that Jesus is an angel based on Galatians 4 14 and I had

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We may yeah, well we'll get to that here as we get into this but So that's part of the conversation.

16:08

It's already taken place. It's could come out a little bit more. Let's dive in here with Justin talking with Simon Gather call

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Early high Christology Club, I don't know how hard it is to get into this club But it includes people like Larry Hurtado Richard Balkin and so on.

16:24

I assume you would put yourself in as part of that Yes, unfortunately, I haven't got one of the mugs There are actual mugs.

16:30

There are mugs. Yeah, there are mugs which are the real badges of membership But it's not in the club But I mean this is what we're talking about at this point

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There's this idea that there is a segment of scholarship which believes that there was a very high Christology by high Christology We're talking about equating

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Jesus with God one and the same thing. He shares in the identity of the God of Israel And I know

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Richard Bork himself's written a whole book on this as well. Jesus in the God of Israel I'll post links to that as well from today's show because we came in to talk with James Crossley about that in the past on on this program, but the

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What's your problem then with what Bart's saying about no, it's more likely there were other types of theology going around Wasn't impossible for angels to be worshipped

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You know You have all these other things feeding into this, you know stories about God becoming human and humans becoming gods and so on or at least divine beings

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So so Bart sees a lot more fuzziness where you see quite this clear line In the writings of Paul.

17:27

Um, yes I mean I wouldn't dispute a lot of what Bart has said in his in his chapter about about Jewish monotheism about there being some texts where There are there are what might seem, you know to the average reader sort of surprising things in philo of Alexandria Almost exact contemporary of Paul writing about how

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Moses becomes, you know, really jolly like God gradually and eventually very much like very much like God and the

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Son of Man is Son of Man figure is worshipped by the kings of the earth in the possibly first century now.

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I know to me. It's just sort of Striking to hear someone say jolly like God, but remember this is coming from from the

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United Apocalypse that we know of as one Enoch. So there there there are certainly in some circles of Judaism fuzziness

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Whether one can then generalize about ancient Judaism as a whole as being fuzzy, I think is a questionable point and one of the one

18:25

I think one of the pieces of evidence for this actually is the New Testament because it seems to me that The New Testament actually is an inheritor of a pretty strict monotheism

18:36

Whatever, whatever philo might have been doing in Alexandria and whatever sort of perhaps rather strange Jewish mystics might have been doing in the desert in Qumran The Judaism of which the

18:46

New Testament authors are the heirs Seems pretty strict. So we've seen that for example in the pericope or paragraph about Jesus forgiving sins

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I don't want to go over the old round that we went into last week, but but they seem to take take a strict view Yeah, and Paul himself forgive sins because yeah, that's blasphemy.

19:01

No one can forgive sin And Paul describes himself as being of the sort of strictest variety of Jew as well. Yes. Yeah, that's right And I suppose it's not just it's not just Paul the sort of, you know strict the strict one again in in Revelation There's a there's a very clear line.

19:13

You jolly well mustn't worship an angel Yeah, you you can worship you worship God not an angel angels are fellow creatures again.

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There's that There's that line. So I think this this line between Creator and creature creator and creation is one that Permeates the

19:29

New Testament because the New Testament writers were inheritors of that strict kind of Judaism Again, so now let me just dive in there and say

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I think this is extremely important So much of Modern scholarship is focused upon blurring this line.

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Ermine is one of those There are a lot of people with they call them, you know

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Call themselves Christians that are very much into blurring the creator creation distinction line in the

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New Testament you'll again you'll find a lot of commentaries sitting on the shelves of Of Bookstores Christian bookstores.

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I've often said that may be one of the most dangerous Spiritual places you can go to is a

20:16

Christian bookstore That are going to be based upon the blurring of this line as well And so I'm agreeing with what

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Simon Gather Cole is saying here in regards to saying that the the monotheism

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That is inherited by the New Testament. But of course, remember there is a there's a fundamental division between Gather Cole and Ermin on even being able to discuss the

20:41

New Testament because from Ermin's perspective the New Testament is just this this mass of contradiction and so That's just you always have to keep that in the back your mind jolly.

20:53

Well, don't worship the created a created thing That's idolatry. If you worship a created thing, you know, that's very bad news

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I can't imagine that Paul would have thought that Jesus was a Being who was created by God even if he was the top Top created thing.

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He's still a created thing. And there's that there's a there's a line there It's not a line. It's a chasm an uncrossable chasm.

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And again, I think that comes out in the in the in the passage that The Bart mentioned

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Isaiah chapter 45, which is the background to the Philippians him where all the way through that chapter

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In Isaiah 45 you have I am the Lord. There is no other there's no one like me There are no there are no other gods. I'm the only one

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Isaiah 43 48 the trial of false gods, which only Emphasizes the the amazing fact that when

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Paul can apply that text from Isaiah 45 to Jesus That that ermine's entire oh, that's what's so amazing is that an angel has become equal to Yahweh No, his point is is that this one is

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Yahweh. He's eternally been Yahweh. He's not been he's not been made Yahweh by this this act he always was the only way you could come up with the idea of Inequality is if you just get rid of that line get rid of that chasm

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It's it's clearly there to me every knee will bow and and to me alone and every tongue will confess that I am

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I am the Lord So so Paul's use of that passage shows that he's he very much affirms that that line

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Okay, so now let's hear what Ermin has yeah So we're not actually disagreeing very much because I agree that that there were a number of Jews who who had this

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What what Simon's calling a strict monotheism? The reason the situation was fuzzy within Judaism wasn't because some people were individually fuzzy

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It's because some people had that view and other people had other views. And so the overall picture is somewhat fuzzy I agree that the authors of the

22:45

New Testament were on the side that that there there is a creator and everything else is below the Creator Where we differ is where Jesus stands in that hole in that array and my view is that Precisely because God exalted

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Jesus to his own status. That's why Paul thought it was so amazing Because this line had been breached by God himself

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God had taken a divine being and exalted him to his own level divine being equals creature

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Created being not eternal and of course I would say you cannot exalt a creature To the point where they are equal to that which is eternal because they always are a creature

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They are always dependent for their being upon someone else and Paul is an astonishment at this

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And he falls down in his knees to worship because of this. Hmm. This is this is the exaltation

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So this is Paul kind of going against everything. He would normally think about worshiping which is what beings which is what

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I'm doing So and about everything else I mean when Paul converts he can I mean he changes his views And this is one of the things he changed his views about now we have somebody that has been exalted to the divine status and Paul realizes this and it completely now

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So what he's saying is what amazes Paul is that God has so highly exalted a creature

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Rather than what amazes Paul is that the Creator has entered into his own creation and Has humbled himself remember the background of this is a discussion of Philippians chapter 2.

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We went through the Carmen Christie We looked at what that that Christ him was saying And things like that now this next section

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Again I deeply appreciate Simon Gather Cole. I deeply appreciate the response book

24:28

But this is this is a place where we're Gather Cole fumbled the ball Um Ermin is going to make an argument that any of us who have dealt with sharp

24:40

Jehovah's Witnesses have heard a dozen times before and What you get is dead air in response

24:49

Which would maybe indicate that a lot of scholars look at apologists as if we're a half -breed

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But it might be good if maybe scholars didn't get out once in a while and maybe run in some

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Jehovah's Witnesses You know actually get up on Saturday morning and and talk to him at the door and be a little bit more exposed to what's going on out here because the argument that Ermin makes here is nothing new and Should have been knocked out of the park

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But it wasn't and that was one of the main reasons it was hearing this section is what convinced me well, okay?

25:25

we're gonna need to we're gonna need to To talk about this and so here's here's that section

25:31

Bart's thing is this is exaltation this is not a kind of statement of Jesus already having that if you like that that why do you believe it's not just exaltation the problem with that is that wouldn't wouldn't

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That mean that God made a create a creature into a into an into a non creature that but now

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Gatheco is exactly right There's this whole idea You can't cross the chasm between the created and young created

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You can't do it You can exalt a creature is as much as you want he's still a creature

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He still had a beginning He's still dependent upon the one true. God so a creature

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So if you're gonna identify someone as Yahweh The way that he does by the use of Isaiah 45 and remember even in my debate with Shabir Ali even he pointed to that as Look what

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Paul's doing. He said exactly right there you go If You're gonna do that there's certain

26:31

Implications there's certain conclusions you have to come to as a result of that and ermine's ignoring that part and just saying yeah

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That's what that's that's that's an amazing thing. Isn't it? It's not just exalting into a different status. It's sort of rewriting the history

26:44

Oh, I know I made Jesus in the past, but let's not think about that anymore That's not making him into a non creature.

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He's still a creature, but he's a creature who's now been exalted to the level of God It's like when a Roman Emperor adopts a son

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The son wasn't born to the Emperor the son is born to someone else, but the Emperor now names him his heir

27:01

This is this is how Octavius became Became the adopted son of Julius Caesar Julius Caesar had another son that nobody's ever heard of his son with Cleopatra a natural son

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Octavius wasn't his natural son. He got adopted to be his son And so he changed his status so that even though he wasn't his naturally born son

27:19

He came to inherit everything that Caesar had he was his sole heir and that's what God has now done with Jesus That makes no sense whatsoever.

27:27

I mean, I guess you'd call that an adoption Christology But it's not because the adoption Christology is the idea of someone of God Adopting Jesus as his son at his baptism.

27:38

He's not saying that's what he does But it still does not change the reality

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That this is a creature Who will always be a creature Ermin saying yes, he remains a creature, but he's been exalted to God's equal

27:53

How? How can you be God's equal if you're not God how can you be God's equal if you had a beginning and he did not

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How can be God's equal if you are dependent upon? God for your existence

28:07

How does that work We're not we're not told but that would mean him that would mean a creative thing becoming

28:14

When Paul is a stopping being a creative thing. Yes when Paul opposes idolatry in Romans 1 he's not talking about that He's talking about pagans who are worshiping idols.

28:23

Nobody's making idols of Jesus No That is a very shallow view of Romans 1 in fact

28:32

Romans 1's wrote the discussion of idolatry in Romans 1 is so much deeper than what

28:41

Ermin just Dismissed it as I talk about idols and you know bound down for hideous things and and there is just so much more

28:50

Romans 1 than that That it's amazing

28:55

Paul is saying that there's only one God and that's the one to be worshipped

29:00

But he also says that now he's exalted Jesus to that level so that he too can be worshipped, but you're saying that Paul Regarded Jesus as as created by God as a supreme angel all things for Paul all things are created by God Yeah, so including including

29:14

Jesus including all the angels, okay? I mean is this just where you'd simply diverge with but and you just don't think that the the text supports

29:21

Otherwise you have to say that he's not right when he says that that from whom are all things Well, if all things are from him then so is

29:29

Christ, but I think the immediate now you see you see the importance here You see when you're when you're hearing this remember that that one of the things in the background here for for Ermin is

29:46

We can't bring Colossians 1 in here Because Paul didn't write it I mean if and that's where people who have a

29:56

Bible and they read the Bible and they assume a consistency Go, where's

30:02

Ermin coming from? But once you recognize that he is Rejecting that he's just throwing that right out the door

30:11

Then he doesn't have to worry about Colossians 1 doesn't have to worry about consistency between Galatians or first Corinthians or Philippians or you can you can just it can all be

30:21

Completely contradictory and that's okay That's alright. That's that's fine so so keep that in mind so he says, you know if if God creates all things and Jesus has to be created and Yet we looked at first Corinthians chapter 8 and We looked at well, they didn't discuss it but the language of the

30:43

Shema that is used there and that Through Christ are all things made does that include

30:50

Christ if he's part of the all things it has to be and That's the big issue in Colossians chapter 1 and at least when you're dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses At least they actually believe that you have to make first Corinthians and Colossians fit together somehow

31:04

That's why they have to mistranslate the New Testament Because at least they have a much higher view of inspiration than Bart Ehrman By a long shot the statement immediately following that all things all things that are through Christ They exist now through Christ because he's the

31:17

Sovereign Lord who sustains the entire universe. No. No, wait a minute. Whoa, wait a minute

31:24

Where do you get that from first Corinthians chapter 8 that the the essence of the exaltation is that now he's been made the

31:30

Sovereign Lord who sustains all the universe a Creature sustains all the universe

31:37

That's what's being said in first Corinthians 8 and by the way all of you anti Trinitarians of whatever stripe you are who are just frothing in the mouth to be quoting for Bart Ehrman.

31:52

I hope you're listening What he's saying Because you're gonna have to very clearly say no we don't agree with that part and la la la la

32:03

But just just be honest Yeah, I'm know what I see. There is the there is the dead air.

32:09

There is a dead air stains the entire universe Yeah, I'm know what what what are you not following on that then?

32:15

So what's the I mean, is this just that it doesn't make sense for Paul this, you know strict to Jew Okay, you know,

32:23

I'm just I remember Exactly where I was on the skunk tree skunk

32:29

Creek Trail Just just going. Oh Come on,

32:35

I mean literally I was just going oh This is all of us who've dealt with witnesses and Muslims and so on so forth are just going oh

32:47

You didn't see this one coming Swing the bat my friends swing the bat

32:52

This is this is basic apologetics and Christology 101 to even countenance the idea that God would

33:00

Allow a created being to attain the same Status as him and therefore be worthy of worship and so on that just doesn't compute in.

33:07

Yeah I fully accept that in Romans 1 Paul is talking about a specific grant brand of idolatry but I mean, I mean it reflects his his view that That you worship the

33:15

Creator not the created things and that's one of the sort of marks of the that's one of the marks of God that makes him worshipable to put it

33:22

Crudely and I mean, I think we also just disagree about 1 Corinthians 8 6 and I don't think that there's a there's a very sharp distinction between God from whom all things come and and and the

33:33

Lord through whom all things come that you know Both of those are created that the both of those are creation language rather than just rather rather than simply don't say

33:40

What would be really nice would be at least a brief mention of the fact that in 1st

33:47

Corinthians chapter 8 you have Paul drawing the shema language together and having it in reference to both the

33:55

Father and the Son and It would tie in together with courios being used of the

34:01

Sun and and all that stuff would have been What have been Jesus you feel in that Corinthians passage is being given the role of a creator

34:08

God in that sense Yeah, the language spoken of in one in the same phrase as God Yeah, the language of through him all things coming is is the same that we find in in in John 1

34:17

About create about creation. It's the same thing We find the same language we find in in Hebrews 1 about creation and Colossians 1 about creation.

34:24

Yeah, this isn't merely Merely constantly sustaining the universe in the present Exactly, right.

34:30

It's not just Sustaining the universe in the present even if you could read that into The first Corinthians 8 text which

34:37

I think is is a massive read -in But again

34:43

That was that was difficult to listen to You've got you've got ermine just doing the well if God create everything

34:51

Jesus is a creation There is just so many problems with that and I realize look

35:00

I Recognize the challenge in dealing with all of the issues that Bart Ehrman brings to the table

35:08

Especially his minimized Pauline corpus and and and and all the rest that type of stuff.

35:14

I I get it. I hear you But we have to be prepared to respond that kind of there's only one section after this that that I want to talk about I mean, obviously you guys just did differ on this issue

35:26

It's fairly significant I suppose in its way, but but some people might be thinking well But I mean nonetheless even if you you know

35:32

Go down the route of Jesus in Paul's view your best guess is that he was still an exalted angel of some kind very powerful equal with God eventually

35:42

It's still it's still in some sense high Christology. Yeah You should be Folks when believing that Jesus was a highly exalted angel a creature of God who is only thought to be exalted to the status of Godhood by Paul and Not by Mark and not by Matthew and not by Luke And maybe even not by John You know the incarnational exaltation mixture theme, etc, etc when that becomes the high

36:24

Christology Club I don't know that any Orthodox person really wants to be a member of that club

36:33

But again, how many times you've heard me say that how many times you've heard me say If you don't believe that God has spoken in Scripture There's no reason to be a

36:45

Trinitarian Right. Have I not said that I have any major? The doctrine the

36:51

Trinity is based upon Believing Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura, and if you don't believe it

36:59

As will not be a Trinitarian No foundation for it Not at all So yeah

37:06

But my point is the significant one that this view was not the view that Jesus himself was pronounced Or that his earliest followers this is something that comes about after Christians come to believe in the red and this brings us to this so -called after Christians come to believe in the resurrection in other words

37:20

Jesus didn't believe in the resurrection his earliest father was eventually came up with the belief the resurrection but it was mass hallucinations and Then then

37:28

Paul's even coming after that and that's high Christology Club. I Tunnel period

37:33

I think that's the the phrase that's used in your book assignment the the idea that there was you know

37:39

A couple of decades between Jesus's life and these early writings and so for you That's the period in which this view of Jesus is high view of Jesus They're not quite as high as assignments does crystallize between the accounts of the resurrection and the writings of Paul, right?

37:54

I mean, I think I think right away as soon as somebody believes in the resurrection They believe that Jesus has been exalted to the divine realm.

38:00

So I don't think it takes I don't understand why that is I mean, I understand why it would be necessary for the resurrection to take place to eventually come up with that idea but There are all sorts of people who believe in the resurrection who don't believe that Jesus was exalted to the divine realm

38:16

And I don't think he ever Established that that was necessary that that that that it's a necessary leap to go from the one to the other

38:25

I'm sorry Herman's book as I mentioned a week ago

38:32

Over and over again. He himself says in his book. I start off thinking this but I've recently discovered that this is the case

38:41

And he you know, he himself said all these years I've been teaching about Paul I just never could figure out what he thought about Jesus and and so in comparison to the

38:52

Works of people who have spent many many years on this subject Not not really not really 20 years, okay,

39:02

I think it's understandable that would have been an immediate assumption The I think the the issue with the tunnel period for people who aren't familiar with this language

39:10

Is that if if Paul is our first author and just to round up just just say his first letters in the year 50

39:16

And say say Jesus died in the year 30. There's 20 years. That's unaccounted for Okay, and how do we know what was happening during those 20 years now the traditional way of answering that is to say well the book of Acts tells us what was happening during that period because the book of Acts begins with Right after the resurrection of Jesus and traces the history of Christianity for the next 30 years or so And so you can just go to the book of Acts But there are problems with saying that the book of Acts gives us that information because the book of Acts itself was written much later

39:46

Sure, so probably I usually date acts to 80 to 85 There are a lot of people now dating acts to the year 120, which

39:52

I think is too late But but even acts has lots of tunnels in it where you got times And accidents isn't trying to set out exactly what the disciples believed every year in this tunnel

40:02

Sure, but much as us biblical scholars would love to have them to have done that they unfortunately it would be great

40:07

I mean we all of us all of us would be ecstatic if a source would show up telling us what was going on in Those 20 years, but but we don't have it.

40:14

And so We don't have it. So we can't trust what we do have

40:20

That comes from within a hundred years, which is far closer than anything else We have about any other movement in history just about And so basically we're back to the hyper skepticism position

40:32

Where unless you have CNN on scene? with constant rolling cameras then we can never really know and that then gives us reason to be hyper skeptical and Again, all you

40:46

Muslims are just going. Ah, ha ha ha ha apply this to Muhammad Apply this to the same time period

40:54

Apply this to the same sources. He's gonna say Hadith way too late

41:00

Irrelevant dismiss it if an Ishak, uh -uh comes too much later apply the same standards

41:08

You won't I realize that but apply the same standards if you're gonna be consistent at all so There you go

41:19

So much in Erman's book that needs to be addressed. I really do want to try to figure out how we can in some way

41:28

Do a study. I even had a church and I think Pennsylvania tweet saying hey, you can do it here

41:34

Well, I was thinking about like doing it, you know Either on the dividing line or here in the studio and doing it over the internet

41:41

And having people join us in a large audience that way But you know do it for an hour an hour and a half on a

41:48

Tuesday evening or something along those lines We'll see what we can work up on that. I I hope we can make it work out

41:54

It's a huge huge time investment, but I think fundamentally it would be it would be extremely extremely helpful.

42:02

All right Put the clutch in shift gears I remember the first I remember my dad teaching me to drive a stick shift

42:13

It was a 1978 Ford Granada and The shifter was on the column

42:27

Shifter was on the column drove like a truck. Oh, that was the worst clutch on the planet

42:33

But you know, it's good to learn that way It's if you can cuz you can shift one of those things You can dive anything.

42:39

Yeah, you can drive anything. That's uh, that was how I learned Wow, that was a really random divergence from what we're

42:51

All right, we're moving on here folks Do you want to see what

42:56

I'm playing? Yeah, it's not a wave file It's um

43:05

Let's see, where'd it Where'd it go? I Want to win.

43:11

I want a window window. Hello window window and The Whoa, I'm seeing that that's okay audio note -taker.

43:22

Haha. There we go There's there's there's what I see when

43:27

I'm playing something folks And notice it says start here

43:34

So what I did is I changed one block to a different color so I know okay This is where we are. This is where we need to start and this is we've already listened to up here

43:43

There we go, this is what we've already listened to up here so This gives me how much more we have to go

43:50

So there there you can see and the light blue. I don't play that stuff. I've skipped over But the colorful stuff is stuff.

43:57

I think we need to look at and so there's there's that and then rich likes this

44:03

Keystone Thing because it makes it look like a little bit like it's Here and you know that that type of thing.

44:11

I But there it is, there's There's there's that all right having taken a brief break there

44:20

That's uh, let's dive into William Lane Craig and Paul Helm.

44:25

This was again. Unbelievable. This was 4th of January 2014 We've been looking at for quite some time

44:32

Need to get it done. So we are at 1 .2 speed. Let's dive in This I want to affirm what

44:41

Paul says about God has resources for Providentially ordering the world that go beyond Puppetry and causal determinism, but what

44:51

I'd want to know is why couldn't that resource be middle knowledge now? Well the fundamental difference is fact somebody sent

44:58

It all can thank you can sent a new book.

45:03

Well, I'm not sure if it is is it a new book The There's copyright 2013 that's new enough reasonable response to from William Lane Craig and Marked stuff for me here on Reform theology.

45:23

This looks like it's it's a bunch of questions from the website actually To be very honest with you.

45:29

But anyways One of The real

45:36

Problems that I have and everybody goes you just you've just got a problem with William Lane Craig.

45:41

Well, I do We're both Apologists, we're both we're debating a lot of the same people

45:47

He has more of a atheistic bent than I do as far as the people he engages with I do more

45:52

Islam and and stuff like that, but I Do have a problem and I've expressed it many times and and here it's said why couldn't it be

46:03

Middle knowledge, I believe that as a

46:09

Christian what I am to believe is not something that I Grab out of the air.

46:15

It could be this it could be that it's what is derived from the meaningful

46:21

Exegesis of the text of Scripture itself. It is forced upon me by revelation

46:28

Revelation is not just a Potpourri of stuff where I can pull this pull that and then mix in a few things over here and create

46:37

What seems to me to be the most defensible position? Theology determines apologetics and we have a very different theology.

46:48

I mean it is Rather clear that for example Dr. Craig is so Free in his utilization of external sources of authority

47:02

That Christologically, he's not even Orthodox. He's a monothelite Why philosophical reasons and Here well, could it be middle knowledge

47:17

Well, where'd you get it from? You didn't get it from the exegesis of Scripture All of you who promote it don't tell me you got it from the exegesis of Scripture don't tell me that you go well, you know when you apply the exact same methodology of interpretation hermeneutics from which we get the resurrection and justification and You're gonna get middle knowledge.

47:37

No, you're not and you know it you know it and That's the real issue.

47:43

That's what all boils down to So when you say well, there's that's where the problem is.

47:49

That's where the problem is Okay, middle knowledge will will do the trick and so I find when

47:54

I read the Westminster Confession I resonate with virtually everything that's in it

48:03

Really come on I Resonate that'd be like me saying.

48:10

Well, you know when I read Charles Finney, I Resonate with almost everything in it except for his theology

48:20

Say that why even say that when you know what What they're really saying and what their real emphasis is and what their practice was what their theology was

48:34

Resonate with it. Come on Except for one clause. There's one clause that says

48:41

God's providence is not based upon how he knew people would Right Bill couldn't subscribe to the very strong statements of the

48:50

Westminster Confession on the bondage of the will to sin, of course not Of course not, but you see

48:57

Craig can look at the Westminster Confession and talk about resonating with portions of it because it have it doesn't have to worry about the consistency and Helms a good

49:06

Calvinist. He realizes you can't you can't talk about God's freedom and sovereignty

49:12

It's anti -Mullinist statements, it's bondage the will statements you can't you can't pick and choose

49:19

What do you mean resonate with something where do you have fundamental basic level foundational

49:29

Disagreements There's a stronger doctrine of grace in that confession. Do you have limited to memory by any chance?

49:36

Well, no, I don't have committed to memory, but it's there You've raised this already there's this strong bondage to sin that the

49:42

Bible speaks of that's confirmed in the confession Is that a problem for you bill? Well, I don't think it is because I with I think virtually all

49:50

Christians who aren't Pelagians will affirm the need for prevenient grace Prevenient grace a good

50:02

Roman concept grace that tries But grace that has no actual end purpose but to bring man to a position of moral neutrality

50:17

Natural man does not seek the things of the Spirit of God their foolishness to him and so no one apart from God's initiative would ever come to God and I think that is the bondage of the will of which

50:29

Paul speaks but Realize that's not what the Westminster Confession is saying.

50:35

That's not what reformed people are saying by any stretch of the imagination This is again necessity of grace versus sufficiency of grace

50:47

This is what sola gratia really means Versus what it doesn't really mean again

50:55

Theology matters we're lost in sin and therefore it needs to be God's prevenient grace that reaches out and begins to draw

51:03

People through the convicting power of the Holy Spirit to himself But the difference would be again that whereas the

51:09

Calvinist sees that calling and drawing as irresistible Actually effective powerful fulfilling

51:15

God's intention. Yeah, I would want to say at some point along the line That is resistible as Stephen said to the

51:22

Jewish persecutors in this day You use hard -knocked people. You always resist the Holy Spirit now.

51:28

I've said at least since writing the Potter's freedom that anyone who quotes

51:35

Acts chapter 7 as if it's relevant to the concept of irresistible grace has No clue what they're talking about and I'll say it again.

51:43

I will say it again. No clue what they're talking No clue as to what reform people are talking about anyways and hence not really providing any meaningful counter -argumentation

51:56

We've read Acts 7 Where are you getting the idea that what the author is talking about?

52:02

There is that God was Seeking to bring about the regeneration of these individuals that he was taking out the heart of stone giving a heart of flesh

52:13

He was bringing about regeneration and they successfully stopped God from doing that. Where'd you work?

52:18

It's really in a description of the Jews as stiff -necked people You're gonna come to conclusion that that's what it's actually talking about Yeah now now in in that sense those hard -necked people doing the resisting

52:34

That that is in some sense ordained by God that they would resist. Yes He leaves them to their own sinful devices or their own simple sinful desires

52:45

That's the way I understand it. But you see there is more so there is more to grace Than the prevenience of it.

52:52

It's rather like a kiss of life the grace of God coming to a soul is like a kiss of life or it's like the dragging of a

52:58

Person who can't help themselves out of an icy pond that they've got in trouble into in other words

53:04

It's a monogistic unilateral activity on the part of God and does Bill's view not the

53:09

Molinistic view undermine that in some way It isn't as much as it makes it It takes away something of the all -pervasiveness of God's grace if humans have a hand in their own salvation in as much as they freely

53:19

Choose yes Some way, of course But it didn't go for the

53:24

Calvinist all the way that they think the scriptures require of us That many are called that is there is of course a universal call of the gospel

53:32

But few are chosen and the choice is this choice is this a resistibility that Bill has mentioned

53:38

But that he doesn't want to go so far as we're simply talk in terms of God's encouragement of people and of his prompting of People but there's more to it.

53:46

I think well, I would strongly reject the charge that Molinism and or Arminianism leads to some kind of synergism where we are partly to credit for our salvation when

53:59

Paul says in Ephesians 2 8 that by grace you have been saved through faith and This is not your own doing it is the gift of God lest anyone should boast the word

54:09

This is in the neuter gender in Greek faith is feminine So he's not referring to faith as the gift of God rather Where have we heard that before?

54:21

We have been hearing that for a long long time We have refuted it many times

54:28

But remember dr. Craig primarily reads philosophers not theologians let alone apologists

54:38

Once again once again Let's let's go ahead. Take a look at it, but help if I can type a ph instead of a oh h

54:50

Take a look at it. Let me give you the right Window there

54:56

Um, here's the phrase Take our kata ts day sesso sesso smenoy

55:08

Dia pistos Chi tuta so the phrase is and this tuta is in the neuter and this not from Yourselves It is

55:21

God the gift it is the gift of God so he's saying since this is neuter and Grace is

55:29

Feminine and the participle sessus men. Oh, yeah, so Joe since the participle is masculine and Faith likewise is feminine.

55:42

This is neuter then it can't be fake But there's one little problem. There's nothing neuter in the preceding phrase

55:50

Notice there's nothing neuter then What's going on here is

55:58

That the Apostle Paul is utilizing the neuter to talk to wrap up the entirety of the preceding phrase

56:06

All of it. So grace all of salvation

56:12

Sessus men. Oh, there is a perfect Participle or by grace you have been saved by faith and that not of yourself

56:23

All of it including faith not just faith No one see what what you get with Geisler and now here with Bill Craig is this idea that well

56:33

You Calvinist are saying it's just faith. No It's everything that God has done is the gift of faith

56:42

It is the gift of God including faith grace salvation

56:48

It's all there because if you're gonna if you're gonna try to pull the well We don't have a neuter so Then grace isn't the gift of God salvation is the gift of God and faith isn't the gift of God Instead very often what you have in Koine Greek is the use of the neuter and we'll actually see that If we get into John 6 we might

57:10

I hope I'll try to remember point that out But in John 6 39 that's gonna come out again the use of a neuter to wrap up a group

57:20

Into one into one object and so there you have

57:26

Ephesians 2 8 in response to The bill

57:32

Craig their commentators will say it is the whole process of salvation by grace through faith

57:39

Which is the gift of God and nowhere does Scripture speak of faith as a work

57:47

Which we perform which merits salvation Oh now again He's trying to say we're not synergists

57:58

But he is Unless he wants to say that By some

58:05

I'm not even get into the middle knowledge saying right here. He is a synergist Because what is synergy the response he's giving is well

58:14

We're not saying it's a work as in a work of law or something like that. We've never said that What we're saying is if my freewill act is what determines

58:29

What God can and cannot accomplish then I'm in control of this. I'm in control of this process

58:35

I'm in control of the situation and that's what makes it synergistic

58:41

God cannot do this by himself There is human cooperation that is necessary.

58:48

He wants to accomplish this but without human Assistance, he can't make it to that goal.

58:54

That's synergism That's difference between grace being necessary and grace being sufficient

59:01

The synergist says it's necessary. The monitor just says it's sufficient That's been the the dividing line for a long

59:10

Long time and it still is over and over again Paul opposes faith to works faith and works are opposite to each other

59:19

And I think one of the mistakes Calvinists make is thinking that if we exercise faith in God We have somehow performed a work and that's a very non

59:26

Pauline I haven't said anything about a work, but you're causally contributing nonetheless to your salvation

59:33

You may not be something that is praiseworthy and or very Taurus in some kind of medieval medieval sense

59:39

But nonetheless that without the contribution of your of the strong sense of freedom You will not receive that you will not receive the grace of God effectively right and that I would affirm that yeah

59:49

Okay, and I would affirm that thank you. That's synergism. Thank you. Dr. Helm for pointing that out

59:54

But but for you that doesn't undermine the idea that it's all God's initiative because it's not meritorious because because it's certain which is exactly

01:00:03

What you've heard? since the early 1990s from whom

01:00:10

Roman Catholic I sat in the office Scott Butler threw that at me.

01:00:17

I've sat in the office at Catholic answers We had discussion about this how many times in the discussions of justification with Roman Catholics, especially in the 1990s

01:00:25

That's exactly what you heard coming from the mouth of William Lane Craig William Lane Craig dividing line has moved

01:00:33

In the same way that you can receive a gift from someone Yeah, you don't as it were do anything to receive that gift

01:00:38

Open yourself up to Acceptance of what someone else has done, but the question the question

01:00:46

Another question is what what as it were energizes that passive acceptance as it were when it energizes the the response of faith

01:00:53

Is it is it the person himself who builds very strong sense of libertarian freedom? Yeah doing that something which he can give and then we draw give and then withdraw as it were that there can be no

01:01:03

Irresistibility about it. It can be an in -out in -out business Tuesday and Wednesday It can be a Christian Thursday and Friday not and then choose him

01:01:09

Wednesday He can be a Christian again open to his faith to do that. That's I think Very well said we we press forward

01:01:15

I want to bring in a Bible text and Romans 8 is often used by Calvinists as a typical example

01:01:21

Now I had forgotten that we have a discussion Romans 8 here since on Thursday we dealt with Kerrigan Skelly and Romans 8 so we've got a good background here

01:01:31

I'm not gonna go back over all of it But it will be interesting to listen to this of Predestination election of certain people to salvation and so on Paul.

01:01:39

Do you want to just explain the well? I think you're thinking about what sometimes called the golden chain in a tune who whom he did for know them

01:01:46

He did predestinate whom he predestinated them. He also called whom he called them He also justified what should we say to these things if God is for us who shall be against us and so on exactly in that In that chapter and for you that that firmly about that chain, of course is yes

01:01:59

Indeed, it's that's a staple for the Calvinist Sydney. Okay, and so we do have here a

01:02:05

Tricky text for a modernist bill It appears that God fully the first link in the chain is for knowledge

01:02:12

Right progeny scope whom he foreknew and if that encompasses me it's cat set

01:02:17

Oh, I really really hope if you listened last week that you caught

01:02:23

What was? The error that Bill Craig just made right? You catch it

01:02:30

He shifted between the noun and the verb. What's the first link for knowledge? No, it's not.

01:02:36

It's for knowing It's a verb. It's something God does not something God has

01:02:42

It's not for knowledge. It's for knowing they're all active verbs exegesis should be primary anyone before philosophy

01:02:56

But When you don't have that then you got real problem The first link in the chain is for knowledge right progeny scope whom he foreknew and if that encompasses

01:03:07

Middle knowledge then there's just no problem and I would say the same about the text from How on earth

01:03:17

Do you get the wildly complicated concept of middle knowledge from the active verb?

01:03:26

progeny scope Where do you get that from those of you who support this up?

01:03:33

Where do you get that from? How do you expect to get away with that kind of just wild assertion that well the

01:03:42

God foreknows and therefore that must be middle knowledge and Where does that come from if you're involved in apologetics and you're debating people?

01:03:54

Do you let them get away with that kind of assertion? Do you let them read stuff into a text like that and not challenge them and Do you expect not to be challenged when you do it?

01:04:06

For max for that Paul quoted at the beginning of the program where the church at prayer says to God truly in this city were gathered against thy holy servant

01:04:14

Jesus both Herod and Pilate and all the people to do exactly as Thy will and I plan had for ordained.

01:04:20

This is according to God's foreknowledge. He knew what Herod would do if King This was according to God's foreknowledge

01:04:27

Okay How are you using that term? I mean it says his will determine to take place

01:04:37

He willed to do this this is his action Was he circumscribed and what he could do by some external quote -unquote foreknowledge?

01:04:48

He knew what I don't know if prefect in first century Palestine He knew that the people would call for the release of Barabbas rather than Jesus So all of this unfolds according to God's plan according to his but they like did you catch that?

01:05:00

He knew that the people would do this why because he has this for Because because he has formed the fabric of time to his own glory.

01:05:08

No because he has a Middle knowledge that tells him what those people are gonna do given those circumstances

01:05:15

Totally different concept totally Different concept are free within that plan, right?

01:05:21

Right because it's based upon how he knew they would freely act if placed in those now

01:05:26

Now I suppose the question that occurs to me that is well Is that not just Calvinism at one remove if you like because it's no well, it's gonna happen

01:05:33

This is what open theists will say Because it has such a strong Affirmation of divine sovereignty, but I take that to be a good thing a biblical thing

01:05:43

But the huge difference is as I said before on this view grace isn't irresistible The person really can do differently in those circumstances if he wants to it's just that he can't escape

01:05:54

God knowing Okay, how he would freely use but God takes hands off and says alright.

01:06:00

It's up to you. Do what you're shaking your head Because I don't see that got the full knowledge of God is spectator light

01:06:07

I think the full knowledge of God is simply what he knows with respect to his own mind Himself knows he wants to happen in accordance with that for knowledge

01:06:17

He predestinates which is simply as it were the means to the end Yeah, the predestinating and then you have the as it were this continuous sequence of connected events

01:06:26

The golden chain as it's sometimes called leading it to the glorification Yeah people of God and by that in that sense when that talks about the election of people to salvation that's that's

01:06:37

God very specifically choosing some people for salvation and By the same token other people are evidently bypassed bypassed and hence will be lost now now

01:06:46

I think that for a lot of people seems wrong No, it is a word about that definitely see how of course we we think of God's goodness as his omnibenevolence

01:06:54

Hmm, right though The facts don't look that way do they the facts of the world don't look like he said the world of an omnibenevolent

01:07:00

God And quite in in quite that way, you know, that's that's that's how I would come at it really So we don't experience the world.

01:07:07

So we need to somehow just understand that that God's benevolence is not necessarily the same as we know And you can't really understand what

01:07:13

I was going to say is you can't really understand the whole fabric of the Bible has to do With his choice this choice of a people and does he bypassed other people that when choosing the

01:07:21

Jews and choosing Abraham? Yes, of course he does in choosing Abraham. He not chooses these others in choosing

01:07:26

Jesus to be as it were the the elects redeemer He chooses other people are bypassed

01:07:33

Bypass that's right. Yes. Yeah bill any any well, as I said earlier I take at face value the passages in the scripture teaching the universal salvific will of God Base value

01:07:48

Okay That's why it really would be nice To maybe debate these texts publicly and see what the base value of them really is

01:08:03

That Was purposeful on his part I I've started reading a book on four views of divine providence and his response to the

01:08:11

Calvinist was Nasty, it was just nasty. I do think I'm mean to him.

01:08:17

You ought to read his Deprecation of of the presentation it was

01:08:24

It was not politically correct. Well, as I said earlier I take at face value the passages in the scripture teaching the universal salvific will of God that he wants all persons to be saved and even in the

01:08:34

Old Testament being a part of the corporate nation of Israel was no guarantee of salvation if a person were

01:08:41

An evil wicked person just being a Jew was no guarantee and there are non -jews in the

01:08:46

Old Testament They clearly have a relationship with God Job would be a perfect example Job wasn't even a

01:08:53

Jew. He was from her. He was a Non Jewish person yet clearly

01:08:59

Job knew God so in that sense then when when Romans 8 speaks of but that didn't have anything to do with what he said

01:09:07

Because are you saying he didn't choose Job? What about all the texts about choosing Israel and not choosing the others?

01:09:13

Are you saying the exception somehow disproves the rule or I don't even get what the point of people being elected to salvation?

01:09:20

When you also believe that God wants all people to be saved in what sense is God electing individual people then in that passage

01:09:27

I would say in a secondary sense that the primary sense of election is corporate God has called out a people to himself and then if you want to be a member of that elect

01:09:38

Body, so to freely choose up to be part of the elect right group. So you have your standard

01:09:45

Impersonal God elects a group. It's up to you to get into it perspective Which makes salvation completely impersonal

01:09:52

Jesus doesn't die for a specific people It's up to you whether you're gonna be united with Christ.

01:09:58

It's all man's nothing all man centered nothing new about this whatsoever

01:10:04

Synergistic, etc, etc very clearly being being enunciated here if yes, and so you have all these corporate images in Scripture the

01:10:13

Olive tree with branches grafted in or broken off the building of living stones the priesthood of believers the body with its different members and parts the

01:10:23

Nation of Israel the Commonwealth these all these corporate images. I was making a very simple point really builds going on about it

01:10:30

But I was making a very simple point that the fabric of our faith and depends upon God's choice and he's not choice

01:10:36

Right, that's fundamental to to the Bible as a document It's fundamental to his character

01:10:42

To what he contains that he chose a people and that through them the Messiah came and in and in choosing them

01:10:48

Effectively choosing them not choosing them in a kind of watery sense But choosing them because he works all things after the council of his own will this included he he he choosing a he doesn't choose me a watery sense

01:11:01

That Quite expressed in that way before very shortly here on the program

01:11:07

Um so much ground that we could cover in the course of an hour, but we can only do so much gentlemen I know that one thing that you wanted to bring up before we finished up today

01:11:15

Paul is is you think Molin ism has other aspects by the way, may I say? That At least

01:11:24

Kerrigan Skelly tried to deal with Romans Face planted in the process, but at least he tried gotta give him some that wasn't even

01:11:31

I Actually have more respect for the Pelagian who tries and completely bombs in the process then for William Lane Craig Who just takes the philosophical glide path over it and never seriously interacts with the text

01:11:47

It's easier to deal with a Kerrigan Skelly than it is with a William Lane Craig at that point in my opinion

01:11:55

To it that get rather confusing and messy Yeah, so do you want to just explain one one concern if I can very briefly and it's um it concerns really where it leaves

01:12:04

God's sovereignty and The situation as I understand it is somewhat messier than we've discussed so far

01:12:10

Oh, yeah program that is to say that the that the conditions that God chooses to actualize There are certain worlds that he chooses which are feasible worlds and yeah here we go we're finally getting into it's at the end of the program and Finally they get around to what the real problem with Molin ism is it's the card dealer.

01:12:28

It's the you know all this mumbo -jumbo that you have to leap through to be a

01:12:35

Molinist and It's it's only gonna be just mentioned sort of in passing there's certain other worlds which he can't possibly choose because they're not feasible and Some of the worlds that he does choose may contain exercises of human freedom which inhibit other exercises if you okay

01:12:51

So it's very messy Yeah when we're talking about possible worlds in which God can see that in this particular world people would choose to do this under these conditions and in another do this under another set

01:13:00

Of conditions not all of those possible worlds are open to God's choosing. I'm sure you understand the This is a very significant distinction and I think has great theological fruitfulness

01:13:12

Okay, so the Molinist will want to affirm that there are some worlds which are infeasible For God to actualize and I suggest that perhaps one of these would be a world of universal salvation right, perhaps in any world of free creatures that God might create some would freely reject his grace and Separate themselves from him forever.

01:13:32

So that even though it's logically possible for there to be a world of universal salvation

01:13:37

Perhaps it's infeasible because God given these subjunctive Conditionals that we talk about there may not be a world in which everyone would would choose freely to exactly

01:13:46

Yeah, so I I do so I hope you're hearing that What what what's being said is?

01:13:53

The constant argument. Well, God could have why didn't God do it in such a way that everyone would

01:14:00

Would believe no one would go to hell. So not a possibility It's it's logically possible, but not feasible

01:14:08

Because God is limited by these subjunctive

01:14:14

Truth statements found in middle knowledge. And again, it goes back to the the cards he's been dealt that's just because that's how free creatures are gonna be and He doesn't determine that it's not a part of his decree

01:14:29

Don't know who does but that's just the way it is. That's the way it is Oh say that or I do affirm that and I I think that you can get great theological mileage

01:14:37

As far as you're concerned God is more concerned with the human freedom than having a world in which everyone gets saved

01:14:44

That would be the choice as it were that God's making Yes, I suppose that's right that he he would not

01:14:50

Exercise a sort of divine Coercion in order to save people that he will respect people's wills and say

01:14:59

You I'm not going to make you go to heaven if you choose to reject me And my grace and my love for you then

01:15:05

I will allow you to do so, okay So but as far as you're concerned this doesn't I mean I think Paul's concern is that by there being worlds which are not feasible for God to choose that somehow undermines

01:15:15

God's Sovereignty because then it's suggesting but it weakens it weakens So you see the emphasis is now not on God's choosing me because he wanted me to be his child

01:15:24

Eternally and unconditionally and by his grace, but he's chosen a world Okay, and I happen to be part of that world

01:15:31

So you're sort of you're a byproduct. I'm a part part part part of what he's saying There is is what

01:15:36

I've called the impersonal aspect of this. It's it's the he chooses to actuate a world

01:15:43

I'm not the object of his choice. I Just happened in this particular world to get saved because that works with everybody else

01:15:51

But there might have been another world that he could have chosen where I wouldn't have gotten saved and if that world ended up having more

01:15:59

Like ability to God then there you go He's trying to get maximize the most number say of people

01:16:05

Well, whatever is whatever his conditions of feasibility are there are certain worlds that are ruled out with it That's clear

01:16:11

But what but coming as it were closer to the center what the conditions of feasibility are Seems to be what we couldn't possibly be clear on me.

01:16:17

So that would have to remain remain a mystery nonetheless His love for me is not as it were Direct and personal it's because I'm forming part of a world which is the world

01:16:29

I don't I don't see that at all I wouldn't agree with that at all God loves each individual and wants that person to be saved and he will choose to create a world of individuals

01:16:39

So the world isn't primary the individuals are pretty does that does God love?

01:16:46

real people Who will exist because of his decree or does he equally love all potential people

01:16:55

How how does God love a potential people who may or may not be saved depending on which world he chooses?

01:17:04

How did God's love exist in? that context All right primary then they build together a kind of world as you accumulate individuals

01:17:14

But what the Molinus does say that I think the Calvinist finds objectionable is that God is not in control of which subjunctive conditionals are true that is

01:17:27

Exactly, right God is not in control That's the card player and that's the dealer

01:17:36

God does not control which subjunctive conditionals are true. Then who defined them?

01:17:43

They exist outside of God's decree they exist separately from God No, no, they're internal to God's middle knowledge, but he doesn't define them and they delimit the parameters of his action and All you other

01:18:00

Molinus have different views and William Lane Craig. Don't bother sending me the long emails about how your theory is different I'm only dealing with William Lane Craig when you're on unbelievable and you're presenting your perspective then we'll deal with that.

01:18:11

But till then please just Rich is tired of reading them. Okay, he doesn't determine the truth value of these subjunctive conditionals

01:18:19

That's outside his control and the Calvinist Finds that objectionable. Well, that's right I mean the whole notion of middle knowledge as portrayed by Bill his objection was the

01:18:27

Calvinist as I said at the beginning He can as it were shunts shunts all this stuff off into one or other of God's other two sources of knowledge

01:18:33

Yeah, I think that's been a very helpful distinction to have it. So there you go. There was a discussion.

01:18:41

I Recognize where the problem is and the more there is a problem to be honest with you

01:18:51

It's it's scary to me. It's scary to me Time is going by very very quickly. I'm a little surprised at how quickly it is going by and I'm a little concerned that I'm gonna be able to get through much of John 6, but I did want to shift gears here real quickly.

01:19:11

I This one citation that I have on the screen from This book that I'm reading by Ken Wilson It's called a letter my congregation evangelical pastors path to embracing people who are gay lesbian and transgender and here is the quotation that Struck me very hard and it wasn't just because I was starting to climb out from underneath a underpass

01:19:43

Which is hard. Well, how are you running? This just hit me and I was just like here's here's the whole here's the whole issue at this point

01:19:56

We already know where he's going at this point. He's already talked about his experience and and all the rest of stuff

01:20:04

And he's just now getting to the let me blow it up here a little bit. There we go that's even nicer at this point, he's just getting to the examination of what a lot of homosexuals call the the clobber passages and Pretty much.

01:20:21

He's just gonna do the Boswell thing. Almost all the revisionists are just Matthew Vines Remember I pointed out his reliance upon Boswell and and and all the rest that stuff.

01:20:33

But anyway Let look at this what I have highlighted here It was some time before I dove into a thorough and systematic study of the relevant text now

01:20:43

Like I said everything else before this has pretty much indicated. He's already come to his conclusions, but now we're getting around to the

01:20:50

Bible. I Knew they condemned same -sex acts without exception, but now it was time to study these texts carefully

01:20:56

Listen to this last phrase in light of my growing experience as a pastor

01:21:05

Now when you read that when you hear that if you're thinking What should be the first thought across your mind?

01:21:18

It's backwards It's backwards The texts should judge your experience

01:21:30

Your experiences as a pastor should not be the judge of the text

01:21:37

Now it's time to say these texts carefully in light of my growing experience as a pastor

01:21:47

When you boil it all down folks, it always comes down to the authority of the word It always comes down to authority what we were just looking at what we're looking at William Lane Craig Well, we're looking at It at all keeps coming back to the authority of the word and what is primary and Here you have a guy now

01:22:08

From his own book. He says he was already into Ignatian spirituality

01:22:14

Ignatius Loyola founder of the Jesuits was already into some a bunch of stuff that would raise all sorts of red flags as to hermeneutics and View of Scripture and all the rest of stuff, but here you've got it.

01:22:27

I'm gonna say these texts in light of what I've experienced As a pastor now, he would probably say well we all do that.

01:22:35

Well, that's the problem A meaningful hermeneutic a set of hermeneutics a meaningful way of approaching the

01:22:45

Interpretation of Scripture will always keep in mind what I have experienced and try to filter that out as best as possible because my experience does not

01:22:55

Provide a meaningful foundation for the exegesis of Scripture and notice what he says down below it

01:23:04

Unfortunately went to the next page as a result. I trust my reading of Scripture more It feels more honest to me when

01:23:12

I give myself the space to let some cognitive dissonance arise Between what

01:23:18

I think Scripture says and what I understand by experience That's gonna that's gonna explain where And went in this situation.

01:23:32

And why do I why do I why do I bring that up? I Bring that up Because of the fact

01:23:41

That You are going to see we are already seeing it. I talked about it

01:23:47

Sunday morning if you go to sermon audio go to my go to my Sunday school lesson.

01:23:53

That was what I was I got to remember to try to blog that I talked about then you're going to see a flood a flood of people calling themselves evangelicals

01:24:06

Completely abandoning the historic Christian perspective on the subject of marriage and sexuality a flood and You're gonna feel like you're the last one left and they're gonna want you to feel like you're the last one left

01:24:19

You won't be God will always have his 7 ,000 who have not bowed the knee to bail and That's how important this issue is but that's what you're gonna have and You I am trying as best

01:24:34

I possibly can To let you all know this is coming.

01:24:40

This is coming. I've got to do something real quick Let's look back it at Accordance here real quick.

01:24:49

I've got to do this. I apologize let me just Just transport this section of the program back into the

01:24:56

Bart Ehrman Park. I've got to do this. I'm sorry It's because they didn't go into it um

01:25:02

Interesting some someone I was going to mention it in channel was exactly right in this Glaciers 414 another incident where when you read

01:25:16

Ehrman's book you are just left going This is this is the one that everyone looks to is having the highest authority really and That which was a trial to you in my bodily condition

01:25:30

You did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God as Christ Jesus himself and what he says is is but as an angel of God you received me

01:25:41

Decca my me as Christ Jesus and what he says is and even makes the claim.

01:25:47

I had this up in Kindle last week I don't have it up this week. But what he says was is the the

01:25:53

Greek grammar? indicates that This is being used as an appositive

01:26:00

But as an angel of God you received me that is as Christ Jesus This is where G is identified as an angel

01:26:08

Maybe he's Michael the Archangel the the highest of God's created beings whatever else but it's the hosts hosts and he gives

01:26:21

Parallel texts Where he says this is established. I don't have time to go into it.

01:26:27

Now. I just need to just briefly I Was amazed at how bad Ermine's Greek was at this point

01:26:36

Because the parallels he allegedly gave were syntactically completely different Than what you have here.

01:26:44

They were not syntactical parallels. I do not know how anyone Who claims to exist at the upper echelons of Greek scholarship could say?

01:26:53

Oh, these are these just intact propeller. No, they weren't Well, they weren't just the use of hosts is not the same thing

01:27:01

You none in none of the passages that he gave did you have hosts and Then your your phrase and then the verb

01:27:10

With a direct object followed by or the repetition of hosts following that This is clearly a progression you receive me as an angel of God Even you received me as if I was

01:27:24

Christ Jesus, it's progressive and The parallels he provided were not syntactically parallel that I forgot to mention that apologize apology

01:27:36

All this cool stuff might make me somewhat, you know Ode ADD something like that.

01:27:44

Oh, yeah, I'm up there too. Oh and there's a camera So I apologize that I just wanted to get there.

01:27:50

All right half an hour. We'll see how far I can get

01:27:55

We'll see how far I can get Maybe when you stop and start

01:28:02

We never did take a break did we Yeah, we never did take a break that we did We'll see how far we get and maybe we just have to pick up or maybe you just have to call the wife and say

01:28:13

Sorry, you know, you know I'm fulfilling the scriptural command to be ready

01:28:19

To be ready in season and out of season. This is the out of season part Maybe you'll have to order some dominoes in bring me in some pizza

01:28:27

We'll just make this the longest dividing line ever known to man. Well, we'll we'll see We'll just take the camera pan it back sit there and choke the pizza down and work theology.

01:28:36

There you go You know, we invite some Presbyterians. Oh here you see here Yeah, except we're drinking water

01:28:45

Anyway, let's not get into that Dangerous no, I'm going to I'm going to bring this down here and That shouldn't affect you

01:28:56

I just moved the accordance window, we're still good Very good.

01:29:02

All right. I'm very happy that desktop presenter doesn't care Where I put that because now

01:29:07

I can have it right in front of me I'm going to minimize

01:29:13

Kerrigan Skelly staring at me there That's just too freaky to have. All right,

01:29:20

John chapter 6 On Thursday unless something gets in the way on Thursday, we're gonna be looking at Kerrigan Skelly on John chapter 6.

01:29:31

I mentioned last week that when we were dealing with the golden chain,

01:29:37

I said well, I What that what must he do with John chapter 6 and once I listened to it

01:29:44

I was just and I've done some screen flow videos where I've addressed a couple of the elements It's incredibly difficult to even try to summarize what he says about this, but before we try to deal with his attempt to get around What is

01:30:02

I believe the plain meaning of this text? I Want to walk through it first and And When I've preached on this text what

01:30:15

I've done is I've gone back to the beginning of John chapter 6 it is the longest chapter in John and Walked through the feeding of 5 ,000

01:30:23

The the fact that the crowd wants to make Jesus King. He sends them away. He sends the disciples away

01:30:29

He goes up in the mountain to pray He then comes to disciples walking on the water

01:30:34

There seems to be a miracle and that when he is received in the boat immediately the boat is at shore And they go to the synagogue in Capernaum Mr.

01:30:45

Skelly tries to say at the context goes all the way into John chapter 5 what he's trying to do there and what Michael Brown did when we did our debate on this is that they want to do is they want to try to find in previous portions of the

01:30:58

Gospel of John some mechanism whereby you can establish some kind of synergism some kind of Argument before you get to John chapter 6 because if you just go to John chapter 6

01:31:08

You're not gonna get that what Skelly does is he he goes back to John chapter 5 and you're not willing to believe and see men have wills as if Calvinists say they don't have wills we believe that their wills are enslaved to sin and things like that Well, we'll deal with that when we when we walk through the the video but What I want to do here is

01:31:30

I I want to look at the actual context and at the actual meaning of the text and I want to establish where we're coming from and and the consistency of This tremendous text let's start in John 6 22, shall we

01:31:50

The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there except one and The Jesus had entered had not entered with his disciples into the boat, but the disciples had gone away alone so you have people that had heard

01:32:03

Jesus is preaching and And they know that he has left and so there came from It came by the small boats from Tiberius near the place where they ate the bread after the

01:32:17

Lord had given Thanks. There's that beautiful word Eucharist. Oh Eucharist there which has been stolen from us by the

01:32:24

Roman Catholics So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there nor his disciples They themselves got in the small boats and came to Capernaum seeking

01:32:32

Jesus So we have people here who actually once they realize Jesus is gone There's not gonna be a repetition of the miracle of the day before are willing to get into boats and row across a lake

01:32:42

What is important to see here? Is that these are people who? Really are seeking

01:32:48

Jesus and that they're gonna be they're gonna be described as seeking Jesus Important to keep in mind, especially when

01:32:56

Jesus speaks to them the way that he does When they found him on the other side of the sea they said rabbi, when did you get here and Jesus does not bother to answer their question

01:33:10

Jesus answer is to say to them truly truly I say to you and here it is you are seeking me

01:33:19

Not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the bread and were filled so Jesus recognizes why they've come

01:33:31

They want to continue the miracle show they want to see this again, they got free food and Yet they did not see the signs

01:33:46

They they did not understand They're all through this there is going to be a clear distinction between the physical and the spiritual

01:33:53

This is also important by the way for those you that deal with Roman Catholicism. This is very important in establishing

01:33:59

The real context of John chapter 6 this has nothing to do with transubstantiation And all the other types of things that people try to cram in here

01:34:09

These people had not seen they saw they they saw the signs But they didn't see the signs as in John so often has people seeing and not seeing

01:34:19

Because you ate of the loaves and were filled notice what he says work not for the food which perishes

01:34:30

But for the food which remains unto eternal life which

01:34:37

And this is going back to the food which the Son of Man will give to you for upon this one

01:34:49

The Father God has He has sealed him. He has set his seal upon this one

01:34:57

He has testified of him as he's going to say and he has set his seal upon this

01:35:03

This one the Son of Man which had all sorts of meaning which can't get into at this particular point in time

01:35:11

Therefore they said to him What? Must we do in order that we may work?

01:35:20

The works of God so they want to know what actions can they engage in?

01:35:25

What must we do and Jesus response is that there isn't anything they can do it's not by working.

01:35:36

It's not by doing Jesus answered and said to them this is the work of God in order that you believe

01:35:46

Upon him that one whom he the father has sent now notice

01:35:54

Just in passing how many Hinnok clauses we're going to run into here This is the work of God that You believe in the one whom he has sent now when we get down ten verses from now, we're gonna

01:36:09

Talk a little bit about the syntax of Hinnok clauses Had a former student of mine write to me this morning talking about what

01:36:21

The the syntactical category of The Hinnok clause in John 639 is and Saying it might be this and not what you said

01:36:33

I actually didn't get into that all I was saying in regards to Kerrigan Skelly was His whole understanding of the subjunctive is completely wrong.

01:36:40

There's all sorts of Hinnok clauses They have they're related to purpose result, but those aren't the only ones

01:36:46

Those are just part of them and we'll look at what the syntactic category of these

01:36:51

Hinnok clauses It looks to me Anyways, like 629 and 639 are pretty much parallel as far as the syntax the

01:36:59

Hinnok clause there but we'll focus upon 639 we get there, but This is just said to them.

01:37:06

This is the work of God that you believe In the one whom he has sent

01:37:13

Now this is not as Skelly says what this means it's him, you know It's a matter of probability and possibility and all the rest has nothing to do with it

01:37:22

That's that's not what the what the Hinnok clause is here. This is filling out what the work of God is

01:37:29

So in other words, it's functioning what's called a positively It's filling out what the function of what the work of God is later on in Verse 39 what the will of God is done chapter 17 verse 3.

01:37:42

We'll see it has a parallel to this that's what the Hinnok is and the Subjunctive is not introducing the things that Kerrigan Skelly wants to think it's introducing here

01:37:54

Well, you know you might believe but you know, we don't know if you're gonna but has nothing to do with it

01:38:00

I mean, you've got the word to talk. This is the work of God.

01:38:07

Something's got to come after that Right, there's got to be something to fill out to talk to explain to us.

01:38:14

This is and The Hinnok clause the subjunctive is what is filling that out.

01:38:20

That's what it's all about verse 30 Therefore so they said to him sorry, so they said to him

01:38:33

What then do you do for a Sign because remember he said he didn't they didn't seen the same ayah and so now they want to see a same ayah

01:38:46

Therefore what do you do for a sign in order that we might see and might believe you

01:38:54

What? What work are you going to perform? What do you what are you going to work? We don't normally use the word work in this way, but Greeks a little bit

01:39:03

Faster than we are Our fathers going back to the fact that he had fed

01:39:11

The people the day before our fathers ate the man in the wilderness just as it has been written

01:39:18

Bread from heaven. He gave to them to eat So it's like okay

01:39:25

Yesterday was pretty impressive. You know, we got admit I mean, we've wrote all the way across the sea as pretty impressive.

01:39:32

But hey, you know what Moses did this for quite some time He did it for years so You know, if you're gonna tell us that we have to believe in you.

01:39:42

This is the work of God then Maybe you'd like to give us a little more of a show

01:39:51

Therefore Gia said to them truly truly I say to you Who Moses it is not

01:39:58

Moses who gave to you the bread from heaven, but my father very personal

01:40:07

Phrase eology there. Papa tear moon my father Gives you is giving to you

01:40:15

The notice the bread out of heaven the true the true bread out of heaven

01:40:21

And that is in the sending of the Sun Jesus is going to be continuously

01:40:30

Transitioning from their categories the categories of Him and the centrality that he has to the plan of salvation for the bread of God is

01:40:44

Ha kata by known ek to what I knew the bread of God is

01:40:49

The one it could be that or it is I think it's the one coming down from heaven and Giving life to the world

01:41:00

This is the true bread of God. He's pointing to himself in these words so in verse 34 they

01:41:13

Therefore they said to him Lord always

01:41:19

Give us this bread They don't really understand what this bread is but in light of what he did the day before it sounds good and We know

01:41:30

Moses did it for quite some time. So sounds good and Jesus the answer to them is just said to them.

01:41:37

I Know this is a go. I mean a go. I mean hot our toss tastes a ways.

01:41:43

I am the bread of life the one coming process and may um, a pine assay

01:41:50

The one coming to me will never hunger Hi, hoppas.

01:41:56

Do you own ice ma? Um, a will never thirst now again

01:42:03

Um When you when you look at the

01:42:10

The term here it's in the subjunctive. And again, this would leave Kerrigan Skelly completely confused because he doesn't understand this subjunctive

01:42:19

But here it's in the subjunctive because of um, eh This is called the subjunctive of strong negation.

01:42:26

It is the strongest way in the Greek language to negate a statement and So what does

01:42:34

Jesus say here Gia says I a go. I mean strong form of self -identification

01:42:42

A go. I mean our toss tastes a ways. I am the living bread The genitive is an incredibly rich Expressive form our toss tastes a ways tastes a ways is in the genitive

01:43:02

Modifying how our toss which is an nominative. So the it's Functionally literally rendered the bread of life, but it can be translated the living bread and It's an interpretational issue as to whether you understand this as the living bread or the bread which gives life

01:43:26

This is why like I said last week Yet in the second year Greek you discover there's over 25 types of genitives and you've got objectives and subjectives and and and just all sorts of of Neat cool categories in in the genitive and that's one of the reasons why you have different flavors in translation as well and those who try to pretend you can

01:43:51

Present an absolutely literal translation. Just not possible The Greek is too expressive for that But Jesus identifies himself once they have said well always give us this bread

01:44:05

I am the bread of life and then you have ha air carmen ospros

01:44:11

I mean of this you've got to start Tracing these through you've got to start tracing these phrases through because we're gonna see this again in fact

01:44:23

There it is right there in verse 37 tan air common on Now you say well, that's hot air common oz.

01:44:30

Well, that's because this is in the this is a participle and it is in the nominative and this is a participle and it is in the accusative and That's just the way they're functioning the sentence.

01:44:46

It's not a completely different word. It's just The grammatical terminations give us the indication of how it's functioning in a particular case in the particular

01:44:56

Context. So the point is that this is a present participle ha air common oz and It could have been an heiress participle

01:45:08

But I think that in this case very clearly we can establish that in the

01:45:15

Gospel of John There is an emphasis upon coming believing seeing and the reason the present tense is used is because there is a continuation to that action and I think one of the things that proves this is

01:45:41

The fact that there are a number of places in John chapter 2 and in John chapter 8 in particular

01:45:48

Where people are said to believe in Jesus, but instead of using the present tense it uses the heiress now

01:45:55

The heiress is undefined action It's normally normally point action in the past as a finite verb

01:46:05

But many people again make fundamental errors in regards to the heiress because they just take that Oh point action the past and then cram it into every use and especially the heiress in Participles how it's used the main verb.

01:46:25

There's just all sorts of nuances that will be lost if you do the

01:46:34

Stamp everything with you know, if you do the Kerrigan Skelly routine, and it doesn't work in John to remember

01:46:43

Jesus did not entrust himself to them because he knew it was within man These people believed in Jesus heiress

01:46:52

Not ongoing Jesus does not believe himself to them John chapter 8 people hear

01:46:59

Jesus arguing with the Jews. They like what they hear so they Believe in him by the end of the chapter they pick up stones to stone him that kind of undefined or heiress heiristic point -action

01:47:12

Type faith that is not ongoing is not saving faith in John. No question about it.

01:47:18

No question about it So What we have here when you have the present tense in the participle ha air common us

01:47:29

The article goes the participle the one coming

01:47:35

Pras ma to me. I believe there's significance in its present tense we're talking about saving faith here and Folks, this is this is again if you if you fight and rage against reform theology

01:48:01

The result is going to be inevitably either libertinism or some kind of legalism because if My coming is something

01:48:12

I work up within myself If my faith is something that that is not the gift of God and the work of the

01:48:18

Spirit of God within my heart Then the scriptures teach something that is a works. It's a mission impossible salvation system

01:48:26

Because I in of myself cannot be constantly coming to Christ it's when

01:48:31

I recognize it's the work of the Spirit of God within me within his elect people that I can then embrace and Recognize that it's

01:48:39

God's will that I'm always coming to him If you don't have the sovereignty of God in there

01:48:44

It ends up being a work salvation system and a legalistic system and there's no hope in it. You've got to accept all of it

01:48:53

Okay Secondly, please and We ain't gonna get all the way through this

01:48:59

This is no way I can't I I there's just too much here

01:49:05

Hot air common offs pros and may to me now those of you who know me well have heard this term before so I'll be brief

01:49:16

There is no place for pluralism in the

01:49:21

Christian scriptures It's not the one who comes to some vague concept of God It's not the one who

01:49:28

Rejects the uniqueness of Christ and decides to come to Yahweh in some other way the one

01:49:36

Coming to me That is the only saving faith. There is that is the only saving faith there is

01:49:48

The one coming to me Will not hunger who may with the subjunctive this is the strongest form of Negation that's why it's in the subjunctive

01:50:00

The one coming and then notice the parallel Chi hop is you own ice ma

01:50:08

So you've got to me coming to me believing in me. These are parallel phrases

01:50:16

They aren't talking about something different if you're coming you must believe if you believe you must come and The result in both situations is that you will neither hunger nor thirst

01:50:30

So what's vitally important for those of you who deal with? Family members and friends and things like that who are into Roman Catholicism You've caught to see that the first place we're hungering and thirsting is mentioned the

01:50:50

Solution the satisfaction is Not in eating something.

01:50:56

It's not physical food. It's in coming and believing Coming and believing

01:51:04

I am the bread of life the one coming to me shot hunger the one believing to me will never thirst focused solely upon Jesus Christ but then and Here is the context that Kerrigan Skelly Completely missed never picked up on it.

01:51:25

Never brought it through Verse 36 But I said to you that you have seen me

01:51:38

And then look at this and you are not believing

01:51:44

You do not believe now. It is present tense. It could be That the emphasis is not on the continuing action at this point that it's just a basic statement

01:51:56

That at this point in time these individuals are unbelievers but the point is even though they have seen him and Even though they saw but didn't see the signs

01:52:12

They are unbelievers. They don't believe They don't believe you must understand

01:52:21

That the rest of this text which is so vital in its teaching is

01:52:28

Explaining what verse 36 says? Listen to most people who try their best to get around John 6 they can't start at the beginning and walk through the end.

01:52:39

We saw that You know if you've if you remember the

01:52:44

Potter's freedom Which we have back in stock again If you remember the Potter's freedom and my discussion in response to Norman Geisler How did

01:52:53

Norman Geisler deal with John 6 piecemeal fashion not even in order? Can't walk through it has to jump down to John 6 40

01:53:00

Come up with a belief on based on John 6 40 and then read that back into the previous text just to get around things

01:53:06

It's what he has to do Because if you walk through this and allow it to provide the context and you don't start chopping it up This is what

01:53:14

Kerrigan Skelly's gonna do is he's gonna chop it up and he's gonna say well You got one group in verse 37, then there's somebody else and there's a third group over here.

01:53:21

No follow the context But I said to you that you've seen me and Yet you're unbelievers.

01:53:32

You do not believe who pissed you at a you do not believe

01:53:39

He's Explaining how is it that they could see how is it that they could see the signs they can see the miracles and yet not believe

01:53:49

It's not like there's some chasm or wall between verses 36 and 37 because was

01:53:57

GSA Han ha did us in my Papa tear process ma Hicks.

01:54:02

I All that the father gives me will come to me

01:54:10

Chi and Ton air common on pross me. Ooh May ek balo

01:54:17

XO all that the father gives me

01:54:23

Will come to me now XI is a future and It is in the active indicative.

01:54:35

It's stating a fact all That the father gives me and that's neuter there so it's

01:54:45

Putting together all these individuals because you'll notice here. It's a group all that the father gives me

01:54:52

Will come to me Well, where's the will coming to me stuff come from back in verse 35 see the one coming to me

01:55:00

So here's the pross ma again all that the father gives me will come to me you're not believers because Because why

01:55:12

All that the father gives me will come to me do you believe that now?

01:55:24

There needs to be You say well, well, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, but but but Hicks I is

01:55:31

Since it since it's in the future Then this is somewhere down the road

01:55:37

No You don't interpret half of a sentence It's just like so many people who love the second half of verse 37, ah

01:55:47

The one coming to me. Ooh May ek ball. Oh XO. I will never cast him out.

01:55:54

All I just love them Love that promise and there's everything to love about that promise.

01:56:00

No question about it The one coming to me. I will never cast out

01:56:06

But who's gonna be coming to Jesus? The one who's been given by the father And you see what again

01:56:15

Mr. Skelly doesn't understand is that you have to when you read a sentence, especially in Greek You have to look at the relationship of the verbs in the clauses and the participles

01:56:26

See what's being said? He doesn't understand that and so he he well, this is you know, this is at the end of time

01:56:34

And The one coming to me, they're the people who've already come to Christ they've persevered to the end

01:56:39

That's why they never get cast out Has nothing to do with explaining Why they're unbelievers why they're not believing just just Fractures this text into a thousand pieces.

01:56:56

I said to you you don't believe all that the father gives me will come to me and The one coming to me

01:57:05

I will never cast out you have to take the whole sentence as a whole The reason it's future is not because it's sometime down at the end of time

01:57:13

The point is that the action of the father found in Dido sin giving has an absolute fulfillment the father gives a particular people to the

01:57:34

Sun and The result of that is that every single one of them because they are given by the father comes to the

01:57:44

Sun and That is why the one coming to him will never be cast out as we're gonna see in verse 38 and 39 because that would be contrary to the father's will

01:57:58

The point is this and we will have to stop here and pick up with the exegesis the next time the point is this and Folks this determines it all what action comes first my coming to the

01:58:15

Sun Or the father is giving me to the Sun. There is no question in the original language here

01:58:28

None Why does anyone? Come to the

01:58:34

Sun Because they've been given first By the father and the dividing line folks is

01:58:45

Listen to somebody listen to their preaching ask them the question Why does anyone come to the

01:58:51

Sun? Well, you choose to come and therefore because the God looks down the corridors of time and sees what you're gonna do

01:58:58

He gives you to the Sun that turns this upside down and backwards He's explaining why they don't believe all that the father gives me

01:59:09

Will come to me and The one coming to me. I will never cast out why because I've come down of heaven to fulfill the father's will

01:59:18

That's what we'll have to pick up. But that is the dividing line between a

01:59:24

God honoring monergism and a man exalting synergism and It's right there right in front of us

01:59:34

Well, I sort of thought we'd end up going mega edition two hours We did and on Thursday, we're gonna basically pick up right there and continue on because I want to then

01:59:45

Listen to what Kerrigan Skelly has to say and respond to it But the best way to do that is to have a solid foundation. So thanks for listening