What is a Nation? - The G3 Controversy

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Hey everyone, welcome to the conversations that matter podcast. I am still on the road Traveling so using my cell phone, but Monday you can look forward to normal audio quality back in the

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Makeshift studio I have and I'm gonna be actually talking with 80 Robles possibly

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William Wolfe. I'm not sure who else I'm still trying to arrange things to talk about what's happened over the last two weeks on Social media in regards to the attacks on cultural

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Christianity Christian nationalism Christendom more broadly. This is kind of a wide net that's being spread here and What that all means and my goal is really to get down to the root issues

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That I'm very discouraged to see some of the reactions the fire

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Breathing reactions that I've seen it reminds me so much of the way that the quote -unquote woke church reacted against More conservative politically conservative

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Christians and Trump voters in particular. It reminds me so much of that I feel like I'm reliving it to some extent actually

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It's funny 80 Robles who's hitting it out of the park lately with a lot of his videos I haven't seen all of them, but the ones

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I've seen have been a phenomenal He said something in part of the video. I watched earlier this afternoon about feeling the same exact way it almost reminds me of What g3 is doing right now

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What nine marks did in a way nine marks? Was a an organization still is committed to a biblical ecclesiology and They went outside of that to start talking about race related issues and social issues

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And once they did that they went pretty much woke at least now that you would consider it light woke

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But at the time it sure seemed woke Especially with what the BDN of wheel a and Jonathan Lehman were putting out there and And so I think

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I'm seeing the same thing or something's very similar happen right now there's a lot of smearing going on a lot of accusations of white nationalism and racism and that kind of thing there's

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Misrepresentation of what people who advocate for cultural Christianity are actually advocating for I actually had a long discussion today with Dr.

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Russell Fuller about all this and we're we're completely on the same page that Obviously, we need the gospel.

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Obviously. We need hearts converted. No one disputes that the question is what society do you want to live in?

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Do you want to live in a society where we have? As I put in a post yesterday coffee shops that you walk into and instead of pride flags you see crosses and you hear

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Christian music and people are friendly or Do you want the pride flags and the raunchy music and rude people and which?

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which do you want and it's easy for me to see this just because I live in New York and When I travel which

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I do quite a bit, especially to more rural southern and Midwestern areas I am refreshed when

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I see all the Christian symbolism and And some of you in the Bible Belt don't maybe realize how bad it is

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But if I go into a state park I'm passing a rainbow flag on my way and if I go to the grocery store I'm passing rainbow flags on my way in all months of the year.

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Not just June That's just the way it is if I drive down the road from my house I'm passing rainbow flags not just ones that private citizens are putting up but ones government officials have put up this is the way it is and there's more that could be said but we're not thinking in terms of This is going to Christian eyes everyone's heart so that they're born again if there are

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Christian laws or Christian social customs That's that's separate in a way.

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It's it's it's not totally disconnected because the reminder of Christianity and the reminder of Christ that comes from Christian symbolism is

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Important and that's what can actually lead people to repentance Sometimes there's a number of people who have posted online during this whole controversy

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How much Christian culture actually meant to them when they strayed from their

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Their roots so to speak their habits that they had of going to church when they were young They knew that there was a place to go back to they knew that when they got so far off like the prodigal son that they could actually return home and That and for some of them that was the time they were actually converted so There's so much.

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I want to say I don't feel like I can now but we're gonna share a lot more on Monday night and For those who haven't listened to my previous podcasts from this week.

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I have reached out to At least one person at g3 to see if they'd be willing to talk.

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I know Joel weapons publicly reached out to Josh Bice I know 80 Robles reached out to Actually, he never gave me permission to share this, but I think he'd be fine with it

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I mean he's he's in a good faith way tried to reach out to Owen Strand and and I think others as well and It's just not you can pray it doesn't seem like it's going the way that we would hope the there really does seem to be a schism forming here and It shouldn't be this way.

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It shouldn't be this way It seems to me like if we are careful and we try to understand what both sides are saying that Well in this case, it's really if we are careful and try to understand accurately

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What the Christian Nationalist side if you want to call it that or those who just more broadly believe in a

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Christendom of some kind? as a default setting in society what they What they are saying what they believe what they're articulating

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It's not what you're seeing represented in some of the articles that I'm reading on g3's website

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Or and especially some of the tweets that I've seen Coming from people. So so anyway, no disdain.

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No, I look I am I Am for very much for My my brothers and sisters in Christ who might disagree with Stephen Wolfe, right?

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I'm very much Wanting to provide clarity as much as possible and build a bridge if that's possible

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But I'm gonna just cut it straight with you guys. I think ad Robles this last week with his

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Instincts has been spot -on. I think he's right to see what he's saying And I'm not gonna let him just go out there alone and start making the observations

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That are getting him in trouble without backing him up to some extent and and I will back him up on this the move that I see right now being made on quote -unquote

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Christian nationalists and purveyors of Christendom and cultural Christianity is

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Very similar to the move that was made on Trump voters by the woke church. I see very little difference

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In the tactics that are being used Meaning the misrepresentation taking inconsequential or anonymous voices and making it sound like they're representative in Hurling charges of unnecessary charges of some kind of racial insensitivity

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It's I don't know there there's probably more but there's I put out a List I think of four or five things the other day of parallels

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I saw on social media and and it just it I think there's also just this feeling

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I have and I've I Can't say that. I haven't totally felt this for a few years There's been part of me that has seen little things that I don't really talk about on the podcast but that have made me somewhat cynical or skeptical or cautious or and And now

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I think it's just everything's coming to the surface and and to be honest with you That might be a good thing. It really might be and and my hope still is that if we can really

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Come to the surface with all the disagreements and differences and find out where those things are. We can have a mature adult spirited discussion about it, but it's not gonna happen if the starting point is total vilification and destruction of someone's personal character if it's cancel culture, which is what

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I'm seeing right now Then it's the response is going to be probably a lot of rejection

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I've seen some mocking from people who don't have much of a platform perhaps But they they're active on social media that they're gonna be mocking remember

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Phil Johnson told me once this was years ago. He said that Phil Johnson from grace to you he told me that one of the reasons that the

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Emergent Church failed was because they could not they didn't have humor and the left doesn't they can't meme and they don't have humor and They can't laugh at themselves, which honestly that is a sign of maturity.

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If you can laugh at yourself. I'm not saying that Arguments that are really cutting against your personal character are always funny or anything.

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But in general idiosyncrasies It poking fun at just, you know differences things that get under people's skin

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There there should be a give -and -take and a fun I think That's just part of I think being mature to some extent and you know

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I don't do I have a Bible verse to back that up. Maybe maybe if I thought about it long enough I can't think of one right now I just that's always how

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I've thought the people that are in my life or the most Christian and mature tend to be able to laugh at themselves

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They don't take themselves too seriously because there's a humility there. So anyway Phil Johnson told me that the

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Emergent Church didn't have any of that Brian McLaren and Doug Padgett and all these guys When they were mocked when they were memed and we didn't call them memes yet But there are these

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D motivational posters that pyromaniacs which was Phil Johnson's blog They were posting when when those those sort of pre -meme memes were posted

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The Emergent Church people just couldn't contend with it and it was one of the reasons they were brought down and I think

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Something similar might be happening right now with people who don't really have big platforms, but they are they're frustrated.

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They're layman They're in churches. They just really want to see some some positive momentum let's rally somewhere and try to carve out some kind of an existence for Christians and Christian culture is not a bad thing where you hear it from everyone everyone in our life says that and to hear

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People that are pastors or conference speakers that you looked up to say things that sound similar is discouraging and So it's those kinds of people who are making memes.

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Some of them are quite funny but they're mocking those who they consider now to be somewhat of a threat even in their own church and and We're still in the beginning stages of this and my my appeal is brothers.

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It doesn't have to be this way It doesn't have to be this way if we slow down if we stop with the personal attacks personal character assassinations against people like Stephen Wolfe, I think that maybe we can build some bridges we can listen to one another but my fear is that the time for that has already passed and And that's just my assessment.

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So more coming on Monday about that. I want to let everyone know The main topic though for this podcast is what is a nation and this is one of I think the move the working issues if You want to get down to brass tacks?

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What is actually motivating this disagreement? So many people don't know that. Where are the lines? One of the complaints about Stephen Wolfe and I understand this one is that he's too vague.

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He's too general He's too academic and I we don't understand what he's talking about exactly we just want we want the

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Bible to be implemented as much as possible in our public life and we want to support Christian laws and You and and like the post

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I made about the coffee shop. I told you about that resonates with people abstractions and Theological and philosophical arguments that are complicated and historically driven maybe not quite as much

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I think both are necessary. You need all kinds of people to form a Christian public theology you need your philosophers and your theologians, you know, you're you're more egghead types, but you also need the practical

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Moms -for -liberty kind of on -the -ground types of people who are going to actually make tangible visions come true

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So all of these things are needed Stephen is just one person and I think a broad tapestry and there's more resources that are coming out

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It's not just gonna be Stephen. It's gonna be many more Stephen and Andrew I guess Torba being the two main recognizable figures there's gonna be many more and there's gonna be disagreements even within that movement, but But that the movement is a general move towards, you know

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Let's conserve the Christian culture that we've been given if you're in an area where you still have some of that conserve it

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And where we can let's try to be more aggressive Let's try to implement some of these things and prudence is gonna guide a lot of this.

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You can't implement a Sabbatarian law let's say I'm not even saying I would be totally in favor of that, but Using that as an example if you wanted to do that in order to honor the

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Sabbath then It's gonna work a lot better in a small town in Alabama perhaps where most of the population agrees with you or at least a significant portion than it would in You know, let's say

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Boston or something, New York So so it would cause more tension and be a more unnecessary and you can work towards other goals in those places

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So there's there's obviously prudence in whatever approach you take but the point is let's try to take an approach let's let's really try to support the the morality of Scripture in the public realm and There's a few people that are trying to come up with Outside the box and new ways of doing that in the new paradigm that we live in and we do live in a new paradigm

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So I'll have to say I probably should get to the topic here, but one of the fundamental differences

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I see is In what Stephen Wolfe did in defining what a nation is

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Now if you notice I just want you to think about this with me for a moment observe that a lot of the discussions the panels the speeches you've heard on quote -unquote

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Christian nationalism don't ever define what a nation is as I recall Andrew Torba's book did not define what a nation is

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If I'm not someone might come up with a passage, but I don't remember it being there Some of the things that have been passed around from like the founders conference

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Where Vodie Bauckham and Tom Askell are talking about this. I don't believe they defined at least in detail what a nation was it's always

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More or less assumed and that's fine There's no criticism that I have about that But it is a whole that needs to be developed kind of it's pretty fundamental

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Stephen is one of the few people who said, you know, I'll take a crack at that I'll try to define what a nation is and he didn't even define it along the lines of genetics or Purely lineage what he tried to do is say it's shared experiences memories

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Ancestral memories that makes a people of people so you can have people of different genetic varieties

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But they have to have shared experience and I think I agree with Stephen on this I would say that Biblically as we're gonna go through a number of passages.

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I hope that's okay with everyone We're gonna do it a lot of Bible today I think based on the passages of Scripture that I'm gonna read you today.

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I think we can conclude that Nations do have fathers there is a lineage component to it

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But just like a family that adopts children we have something called assimilation and the Israelites had it too

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You could be a proselyte and you could come into Israel. It wasn't just a religious thing It was also becoming part of of them of their people.

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That doesn't mean that you were now automatically given all the rights that the various tribes were given like land rights and things but But you would be part of what

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I guess would be a ancient parallel to the body politic so So these things do exist

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The there you're still barriers, right you can still only go to the court of the Gentiles when you're worshiping and things like that But but there was some degree of assimilation and I think that's what we've adopted today

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And that's what I agree with is that people who have come even to the United States And and I view the

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United States more as an empire than a nation I think it's composed of various nations but whether you are in the

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South or the Midwest or the Northeast or the Pacific Midwest or the Southwest all these places

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Have nations and some of them have multiple nations like in Arizona. You have multiple Native American tribes that have their own nation like the

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Navajo Nation, right? That's what it's called. It's its own people Is it in America? Sure it is, but it's its own nation but the people who have come over to the

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United States and settled in various areas have either assimilated by Contributing and blending with the people who were there in which case you have the formation of a new nation that has roots like the

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Samaritans of Scripture where you have the Jewish people blending with With I guess it would have been

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Samaritans Philistines Assyrians you have a new thing formed and That's I think

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That that doesn't take that that doesn't mean that nations don't exist just because You can blend them together.

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Just like we wouldn't say families don't exist just because there's marriages, right? Nations are something that actually do exist tangibly speaking

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That is controversial today to say that to say that nations actually exist To say that they're they're people groups that in particular places with particular habits with particular ways of life

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Ways of even religion and To say that You can have a nation where people don't share any of the traits that are commonly associated with nations

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They don't share the same religion. They don't share the same habits or traditions or rituals

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They don't share a common lineage at all. They don't share The Cuisine they don't share music.

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They don't share if they don't share anything then people have nothing in common and they're just fractured But they're all dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal or something.

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Well, that's not a nation That's just not a nation. That's that's an idea. That's an abstraction.

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That's a principle and We're gonna see that as we go through scripture And and so so my challenge is if this offends any of you if this is hard for you to hear

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If it I'll say one thing first if you're hearing me say, oh, it's just for white people in America Then you aren't listening.

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That's not what I'm saying at all Black people Chinese be people that go back to their ancestors go back to Asia and all kinds of places just as American as I am

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But again, I think America is more of an empire and again, I believe that you can adopt or assimilate people who are different genetically and culturally into Your particular group and you can become one that's what marriages have done throughout time

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So if you hear me saying like, oh, you're not included because you're of some other genetic You have different genetics than I do or something.

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You are not listening and I don't think you're listening to Stephen Wolfe either Because he is not saying that at all

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I've read him very carefully and I've tried to really parse these things out and and the people who are really trying to think through these things in -depth

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Biblically philosophically Logically are

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I think being Somewhat misrepresented and shouted out by those who frankly and and I don't know how else to say this

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I'm trying to be fair, but they haven't thought about it as deeply perhaps and they're just assuming this propositionation idea

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Which is so innovative and new in the in all of human history, and it's not working It's clearly not working in the

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American context. So now that we're 20 minutes in let's get to the meat of it All right, let me take you through some Bible verses to demonstrate some of what

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I'm saying Genesis 12 chapter 2 says and I will make you a great nation and I will bless you and make your name great and so You shall be a blessing now.

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Who's this referring to is referring to Abraham Abraham's the father We even sang it when

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I was a kid father Abraham had many sons many sons had father Abraham I'm one of them and so are you and of course we're talking about the spiritual heritage there, but the the parallel the tangible example in Genesis 12 that is then used to Define the spiritual nation is an actual physical nation

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I will make you a great nation and I'll bless you and make your name great so that you shall be a blessing so we find from the earliest pages of Scripture look at any of the genealogies that Those genealogies are important that nations have fathers their people groups

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Do and we could probably talk about the Tower of Babel. I skipped over that in my verses here But of course language is a huge part of this and I'm gonna be talking about that in probably the next episode how language affects culture because it affects it in ways that you're probably not even aware of it is gonna be so interesting and I can't wait to To put that podcast out there, but a

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Deuteronomy 23 7 through 8 says this you shall not detest an Edomite For he is your brother

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You shall not detest an Egyptian because you were an alien in his land The sons of the third generation who are born to them may enter the assembly of the

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Lord Well, why'd you read that John? Well, because this is talking to the children of Israel the

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Jewish people and It's saying that an assimilation must take place before you can enter the assembly of the

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Lord Part of the national identity as well was the spiritual Rituals before you can do that It's got it's got to be the sons of a third generation who are born to them

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Those are the people who can enter the assembly of the Lord. I find that fascinating now, I'd be curious

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Maybe someone has a different take on this but this looks to me like there's some kind of a process that needs to take place that is a

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Longer process than we are comfortable with generations have to take place of Assimilation and Familiarizing yourself with the

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Hebrew culture before you can actually allow them into the assembly of the Lord until you can become one with them

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In some way it's gonna take time. And that's one of the things that I would just I would say about multiculturalism

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It's not that we're that people like myself who are politically conservative are against other people coming to the

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United States We just don't like the rate at which it's happening and the destabilizing effect that it has and The lack of assimilation and those are the main things and that's what so when

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Stephen Wolfe says I think we just need to shut the border down for a while. Think about Deuteronomy 23

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Three generations before an Edomite could enter the assembly of the Lord. I mean, that's pretty that's pretty long, isn't it?

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Daniel chapter 2 verses 40 through 43 Then there will be a Fourth kingdom as strong as iron in as much as iron crushes and shatters all things

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So like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all the pieces things these in pieces

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In that you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron It will be divided kingdom

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But it will have in it the toughness of iron in as much as you saw the iron mixed with common clay

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This is talking about Rome. Okay As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery

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So some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle and in that you saw the iron mixed with common

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Clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men. Hmm the seed of men the seed of men this is birth this is

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Family so there's going to be intermarriage. That's what it's saying Okay, but they will not adhere to one another.

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Uh -oh Even as iron does not combine with pottery. So you're gonna have intermarriage

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You're gonna have mingling of different peoples, but they're not gonna adhere to one another It's it's gonna be brittle.

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It's gonna be weak. And that's exactly what happened with the Roman Empire The Roman Empire extended it wasn't a nation.

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It was an empire You had the nation of the Romans Versus well not versus but incorporating into themselves all these various people groups and it was too big and Eventually it collapsed and I would submit to you the same thing happened with the

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Ottoman Empire the Turkish Empire That's why Lawrence of Arabia if you've seen that film or read seven pillars of wisdom te

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Lawrence was able to lead a revolt against the Ottomans because the Arabs weren't part of the same nation and They were being controlled by the

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Ottomans. So they they had a different identity. It's why The British making, you know

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The modern state of Iraq the way it is is a disaster The Kurds aren't gonna go with the

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Shiites who aren't gonna go with the Sunnis. These are different in effect When you have generations of intermarriage and habits forming you have different nations at a certain point

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I'm not gonna claim I know exactly where that point is, but there are some obvious things like language that would point to that The same same thing

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I think is happening in the United States and this is why this question is so important What is a nation?

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It's like Matt Walsh's. What is a woman or The Southern Baptist Convention's problem with what is a pastor or what is a marriage?

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All these definitions are under assault and what is a nation is no exception. We need to answer this question,

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I think If you're gonna talk about nationalism at all and critique it or support it

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You're gonna have to talk about what is a nation before you can get to that And just for the record,

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I'm a localist guy. I'm a federalist guy I like I think we had a Federal Republic from the beginning and it there was room for Multiple nations being part of that but we did have shared

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Anglo Protestantism I would say for the most part okay, there's exceptions but for the most part in the

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United States in the early founding period and That was the glue that kept us together until we had a war and well

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Not even till then we had the Hartford Convention where New England was trying to secede from the rest of the country they almost did and I believe joined

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Canada and that We had there was conflict from the beginning because there were differences between the people groups who came here even then now think about that today

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With all the different peoples coming here now, do you think we're in trouble you bet we're in trouble

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We're doing the same thing. The Roman Empire did they will combine with one another in the seat of men but they will not adhere to one another and If there's any group of people not adhering to one another a group of people that don't have each other's back that are

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Suspicious of one another I would say that is in the United States right now And that's why those of my parents generation and their baby boomers

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And and I know some people who tried to correct me in a video recently. They said wouldn't they be Gen X? No, they're baby boomers.

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I we in my family. We tend to have kids later than other Christian families

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You know, they grew up in a world where you did have each other's back even Democrats and Republicans were more united than they are today

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So anyway, I'll have to say the scriptures not very in favor of multiculturalism

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Psalm 33 12 says blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord and the people whom he has chosen for his own inheritance

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Blessed it so there's a general thing here. Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord. I Just Israel but to any nation now the people whom he has chosen for his own inheritance,

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I think that's speaking about Israel Maybe maybe

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I don't know I haven't done a deep dive on this but I've always taken this verse to mean that those

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Peoples who worship the Lord are going to be blessed by him and Yeah, it's not exactly the same covenant that Israel had but there

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If you worship the Lord if you support his law again Isaiah talks about his law was given as a light to the nation's

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Then you are going to reap benefits Psalm 14 34

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Righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a disgrace to any people. Well, what's righteousness? Right who defines that?

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Well, it's the Lord One of the silly debates I saw yesterday online Was between well,

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I don't say who it is, but there was a silly debate and it was It was regarding whether or not we should have

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Christian laws or just moral laws. I thought this is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of What is a moral law?

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It's a Christian law. It's a Christian law Where do you get a standard for righteousness from Christ Jesus?

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Who's Lord? This notion that we can just separate that and just have moral laws, but it's not directly related to Jesus or something

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It's indirectly related I don't get it. I really don't get it Matthew 28 19 says go therefore and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of the

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Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and Again, if you look up in any concordance these terms that whether the

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Hebrew word goyim or in Matthew I think we're probably looking at ethnos there.

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It means people's it's pretty general people groups And the original audience would have known what was being referred to there

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Act 17 and he made from every one man every nation of mankind to live on the face of the earth

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So from one man every nation having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation. Wow, there's there's boundaries around nations

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There's geographic places. They they live in. Yeah, you bet there is Romans 9

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Three through four says for I wish that I myself were a curse separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren my kinsmen according to the flesh who are

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Israelites to whom belongs the adoption of sons and The glory and covenants and the giving of the law and the temple service and the promises

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So if you ask the question was Paul a Christian a Jew or a Roman the answer is yes He was all three.

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He was a citizen of the Roman Empire. He was Ethnically a Jew and and he's speaking about this as someone from the inside it's not like the other verses where we're speaking about nations as a set of a

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Set of things that exist in this world and there's multiple varieties of them and so they fit into this category of nation

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Paul's not the word nations not even here He's talking about the nation of Israel from the inside And so he's using personal language my brethren my kinsmen according to the flesh

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So it's a very personal thing when you are part of a nation That's part of your identity

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Paul was part of the church, but he didn't lose his connection to his people Really important for us to remember that first Peter chapter 2 verse 9

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But you are a chosen race a royal priest at a holy nation People for God's own possession so that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light

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Now this is referring to the church The the believers in Jesus Christ of the

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New Testament. They're a chosen race They're a royal priest at a holy nation so you have these terms that are

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Applied in other places in Scripture to actual tangible physical Nations now applied to the spiritual reality of the church, but I I want to just point something out to you

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Those who want to use a verse like this to say well national differences don't mean anything anymore because the only thing that matters is whether or not you're a

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Christian or not because it says that the Nations or national identity is now fulfilled in some kind of a spiritual identity.

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I want to just ask the question Well, how did the original audience take this when when

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Peter is saying you're a chosen race a holy nation What thought came to their mind?

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Did they think oh man Peter's inventing something that's never this has never happened in the history of the way that there are no nation

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Oh, obviously not Obviously, they know that he's connecting it to something they have experience with they know what a nation is

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They know what a nation is and nations have certain characteristics I didn't put the verse here But even you know things like Cretans are all liars and stuff like there's characteristics that nations have you can identify them

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You know where they live, you know what how they operate in general And and so yeah, maybe that's stereotyping but it's in Scripture.

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So the people who Would have heard this originally they only know the spiritual reality of the church as a holy nation because they understand what tangibly a nation is and How that's a picture just like we're part of the family of God.

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It doesn't eliminate the fact that you're part of a family That's ridiculous. Obviously, you're still part of a tangible family in the temporal world

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Doesn't eliminate that identity that identity still there just as much as it was before you just have a new identity as well

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Now you're part of this spiritual reality. And isn't it a wonderful spiritual reality to be part of?

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Revelation 7 9 after these things I looked and behold a great multitude which no one could count from every nation

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And all tribes and peoples and tongues. This is one of the clear passages you have on divisions of people You have nations you have tribes you peoples you tongues now one of the things you find in Scripture is sometimes groups are

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Like for instance Gentiles would be an example of this are put under a broad category So any nation that's not

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Jewish is going to be part of the category Gentiles. It's similar to how People talk about whites today, you know

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It sometimes it's almost offensive because you're just like how can you just group all whites in into one category?

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I mean, what do I have in common with someone who's in? Russia who speaks a different language who has different traditions, right?

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They're not really we're not part of the same nation but but it's a general category for a very particular

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American context because of Political behavior and social behavior primarily that's why it exists and people who analyze those things are really forced to use those categories

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You don't really have alternatives So so these are art if those are artificial constructs, but they represent something that's tangible and real so race isn't or nations aren't

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Social constructs though, which is what critical race theory would want you to think They are they're tangible realities, but we come up with categories and ways of describing them that are social constructs

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I hope people can see the difference between those two things very important What I have found is that?

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Those I think on the woke side and this is one thing they share and well some of those on the woke side

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I think yeah, I would say those on the woke side. Sure. Yeah, I'm comfortable saying that and those That are now on the

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I don't know how to even say this. I Did the g3 side do I say that or something?

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I don't want to be disrespectful, but Some people call it big Eva and little Eva But maybe that's a term

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I don't know whatever that kind of circuit is that that The people who speak at that conference many of them not all of them

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They they have a shared understanding of this that race is a social construct. They both

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Agree with that tenant of critical race theory and it is a tenant of critical race theory. It is a also a tenant of neoconservatism it is a

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Universalist I guess or an alienist kind of impulse that exists that downplays the natural affections and attachments that are particular to certain places and peoples and it kind of universalizes it and It what

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I wonder is whether or not the battle we've been seeing online for the last two weeks is somewhat related to a battle between paleo conservatives and neoconservatives or Some people are

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Saying it's it's boomer cons verse more based people, but I think that's what they're referring to there. It's really neoconservatives and paleo conservatives

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You could even think of it as those who are for particularity paleo -conservatives and those who are for some kind of a

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Universalism of some kind or a globalism of some kind And not all of these people would say they're for globalism at all.

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But but the the point is that Eliminating distinctions is

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One of the projects of the globalist it leads to it. So all that to say

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Revelation 7 clearly shows that There are peoples there are tribes nations peoples tongues all these things all the ways they can slice human beings

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They are all part of this universal church, but they have their particularities.

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They retain those these particularities That were theirs in the temporal realm that membership in groups that did not just include

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Christians That were part of the creation order and and so in another video that I'm gonna put out hopefully later this week

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I'm gonna talk about this a little more and how Part of God's good creation is language

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He didn't stop creating in The the first six days of creation.

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I would argue that Actually even at the Tower of Babel those languages came from somewhere God created them

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And we have to think about whether or not those are good things Was it good for God to divide the peoples up by language and put them in various areas?

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Was that a good thing of God that he did that doesn't mean that you can't immigrate doesn't mean that you can't move or Colonize or whatever, but it just means that particularity though is important in some way because we see it

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Not just in the beginning in Genesis. It shows up in Revelation Particularity is important even in Revelation And so I would just encourage those who are busy attacking cultural

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Christianity Christian nationalism Christendom And any of those people who are trying to paint this as somehow a white supremacy or white nationalism or you know something like that, you know, even even people like myself who think that it's great that there's so many

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Christians who live in Nigeria and I've talked about on the podcast many times because we have a connection with equipping the

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Persecuted in my in Nigeria, you know that they have an opportunity to Have a

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Christian nation in the sense that They can adopt Christian moral principles the same way that when we say that's a

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Christian family or that's a Christian business We're not saying everyone is saved in the family or everyone's saved at the business

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We're saying they go to church or they they play Christian music there They they they have the default setting is

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Christianity for their culture. So Yeah, anyway,

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I just wanted to share that with you all of that about nations and and I'm trying to hopefully be helpful to get down to some of the things that I think are

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Fundamental in this debate some of the things that people are truly disagreeing on Below the surface even when on the surface, it's like Insults and smears and it doesn't make any sense and it's people getting offended

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You know, I've tried to think long and hard, but what's the actual disagreement here? and and I do think it might have something to do with that.

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There's a people from a more theological Exegetical background seminary people who probably many of them haven't put a lot of time into reading

40:31

They're not reading Paul Godfrey Richard Weaver Russell Kirk Roger Scruton is mud.

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They're not they're not like familiarizing themselves with all those kinds of people There's certainly not and maybe they're reading more neo -conservatives, you know as they go, but that's not their expertise.

40:47

That's not their field it's not their wheelhouse and I think they might have just walked into a debate that That has had sides going back for decades

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And it's an age -old debate really but it's it's well I shouldn't say it's age -old

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It's actually fairly unique to the modern world. But the beliefs that there's particularities that is age -old and they're walking into something that I'm wondering if many of them are even aware of if they're ignorant of this battle and how it's taken place over the years and you know, like the difference between the

41:27

National Review and Chronicles The the fight between Harry Jaffa and Mel Bradford I mean many of you in the audience may not even be familiar with these things but these things actually very much on a political philosophy level they play into the current debate that's happening in evangelicalism part of what

41:45

I'm trying to write about Part of what I need to communicate to everyone in the next book that I write because I really want

41:51

Christians to understand Some of the things that have taken place beforehand and because they've taken place in Non -evangelical settings whether that's in Roman Catholic settings or whether that is in just politically conservative settings many evangelicals just aren't aware of it and and so Stephen Wolfe is definitely a paleo conservative.

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He writes like one Sure, he is quoting all the time theologians from hundreds of years ago reformed theologians

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But he is obvious to anyone who knows anything about paleo conservatism when you read

42:27

Stephen Wolfe He is in that tradition very much. So I mean he starts the whole book with a quote from Sam Francis So, you know

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That's that's something that if you don't understand where he's coming from and you hear language You haven't heard before and you knee -jerk that all it must be white nationalism or something

42:42

It might be due to the fact that you're not quite aware of Some of these debates that have already taken place and what these terms mean and all of that So we need more clarification, but I figured this would be a good place to start what does the

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Bible say about what a nation is and my contention is the

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Bible does give us a An idea and we can

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I think distill that into somewhat of a definition That nations are particular peoples with particular cultures with particular regions that they dwell in Particular habits particular religious rituals that are by and large part of the nation's identity and you know, these nations also share languages they there's a somewhat of an in -group preference and a trust that exists among the members of that nation and that's why often nations are then also combined with Governments that those they they come together

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Collectively to form an arrangement that is mutually beneficial for the common good of the people that exists there

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So, I mean this is just basic stuff, but this is I think what a nation is and I think that's what you see in Scripture, it's just assumed in Scripture nations have fathers.

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They have boundaries they are particular peoples and if we can

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If we can just adopt that if we can agree on that I think we will make a lot a lot a lot of headway and Yeah, that's gonna maybe put you out on the outs with the neoconservatives because you're rejecting the propositionation idea

44:20

That nations are just the ideas that people can assent to That's you can't reduce a nation to just that that might be a feature in a nation just like Participating in religious rituals and so forth might you might say that's a feature in general of a nation

44:36

We actually have religious rituals in this country that Everyone does participate in or has until recently whether they were

44:43

Christians or not Believe it or not if you think about it every time you see The president or any member of a jury or anywhere?

44:52

Swear on a Bible you're actually seeing a religious ritual there It is the belief that there's a system of rewards and punishments that the

45:00

God of the Bible will implement against you if you lie We have shared celebrations of various holidays like Christmas like Easter I contend that the new calendar that is forming before us is the enactment of a new religion a social justice religion and it's new religious rituals, but we actually do have rituals in our society that we've had for a long time and People just honored them whether they were born again or not and and that's quickly coming to an end

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So I've talked for too long. I hope that was helpful for many of you more coming God bless and Thank you for your continued support

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Of this podcast for many of you who have prayed for me while I'm traveling and it just means a lot.