Open Discussion, 1/16/2020

CARM

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We're going. All right, there we go. It's about a minute till, less than a minute till eight o 'clock

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Eastern time. And opening up this venue, hopefully we'll be able to get some people in here tonight to have a discussion on whatever they want to talk about,

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Roman Catholicism, Calvinism. The reason I opened this video room tonight, and we'll see how it goes, is because of my discussions.

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I got Shanghai'd in, I don't know how I got in there, the Reformed Coffee House.

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I made a comment. And so basically

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I get attacked a lot by Roman Catholics, a lot of personal insults, just a lot of condemnation.

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And I try and be as polite as I can. And so I was responding, I was thinking politely and properly.

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So I thought what I would do is offer an opportunity for people to come in and have a discussion.

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And now it's me not lying in wait to jump people and to crush them and things like that.

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That's not what I'm interested in doing. So if you wanna have discussions, feel free.

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I put the information on the CARM Facebook page. And actually

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I believe I did, I don't know if I did or not. I put it on one, let me put it in my

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CARM Facebook page. I got so many things going on, so please bear with me. I'll get that going. And maybe we'll get some people in here, we can have some good discussions.

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Hopefully, I really do hope that the people who wanna talk are

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Roman Catholics. I really do wanna build a dialogue with them, politely, hopefully, and convey to them what

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I believe and teach about the Roman Catholic Church. A lot of Roman Catholics have said that I don't know

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Catholicism. Maybe I don't, but I would think I would after studying it for many years and reading a lot of their material.

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So in fact, I remember once, years ago when I had the radio station here in Boise and I was discussing things with a

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Catholic priest who came in. And he said, he looked at my material on CARM. And I asked him,

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I said, is it accurate? Does it accurately represent Catholicism? And he said, well, for the most part, yeah.

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And so that was nice. We didn't get into the particulars. I don't know if we did. Can't remember the conversation too much after that, but it happened a long time ago.

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All right, so hello, Terry and Randall, Melissa, Marlene, Jimmy, Justa, and Jess.

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How are you all doing? I suspect that you're all Protestants. And I kinda suspect that we're not gonna be seeing too many

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Catholics coming in, if at all. I hope it's not just the case that they are, hey,

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Bill, Parker, I hope it's not just the case that what they wanna do is just throw mud from a distance and not deal with the issues or talk to me personally and things like that.

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Several of the people on the Reformed Coffee, Coffee House, is that what it is?

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Yeah, Reformed Coffee House. Several of the Catholics have been just vitriolic and accusatory, very accusatory of me personally and accusing me of personal deception and pretending and various sins.

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I just hope that what they would do instead would be to have a real discussion.

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All right, so I see a bunch of people in the chat and we've got 45 people watching,

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I guess, that's good. And nobody is in the StreamYard thing if you guys want to have a discussion.

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All you have to do is, I'll put this in here, if anybody wants to join me, all you have to do is click on that and that link or put the link in and you can get right in and it helps to have a camera, but you don't have to have a camera, but you need to have a microphone of some sort.

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Otherwise, there's no purpose of being in here. Might as well stay out and just type because this is a voice and video option here.

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So are there any Catholics in the chat? I see some people who are here.

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I'm just trying to fill the time until people come in and we can have a discussion.

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I'm hoping it'll happen. Hi, Carla. So we've got 44 people watching.

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We have some in Facebook and let me check this out here. I'll go to my

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Facebook page and maybe people will make some comments in the Facebook page. I don't know how all of it works very well.

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So let's just see. What I'm gonna do is give it 10 minutes or so and if people show up, then they show up.

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If they don't show up, I'll just probably quit. So just wanna be able to have a conversation.

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What it is is this is an attempt to have discussion with the critics, with the Catholics, to see if they're able to defend their faith and substantiate what they believe.

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I think they don't wanna show up. Baptismal regenerationists are welcome too.

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One is Pentecostals. You can get Eastern Orthodox people. You can get various people who wanna come in and have a discussion, ask questions, do a little bit of arguing, that's fine, but I suspect they don't wanna do that.

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I don't know what it is. People are so eager to sling mud at me when it's behind their keyboard, but I guess when it's, so to speak, face -to -face, they don't wanna do that.

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Yeah, Jesus' word, maybe they won't show up. I doubt if they will, I really do. But I do keep trying to provide an opportunity for them to show up so that we can just have a discussion.

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And the thing is, so many times, what they do is they accuse me of all kinds of evil, all kinds of sin, that I'm gonna mute them,

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I won't be nice to them or whatever it is, but I'm nice and hopefully it'll come in.

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So here's the link again. This is for the StreamYard so that people can come in.

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You guys can come in too. If you wanna come in and comment, have a little chat, that's fine. If you have any questions about whatever, that's fine too.

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And if you don't, that's okay. Can you explain and elaborate on Mariolatry or Mariology?

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Well, what it comes down to is, unfortunately, the

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Roman Catholic Church places far too much emphasis on Mary, far, far beyond what the scriptures teach and give to her titles and abilities that scripture doesn't even hint at.

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And it's very unfortunate that that is the case, but it is the case. And, hey,

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Metzlick, enjoyed chatting with you today. Good, praise God, man. Can't wait to do a Google Hangout with you.

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Oh, okay. Well, you're welcome to talk now if you want. You know, anybody wants to, they can come in.

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That's the link to participate right there. It helps if you have a microphone. And sometimes a tech works really easily with people and sometimes it doesn't.

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What's the best approach for refuting Baptismal Regeneration? Well, I don't know, it depends on the person, but I think what

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I'm leaning towards more and more, it's just simply like what I said to the, when this Pentecostal guy, are we justified by faith when we have faith?

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Are we justified by faith when we are baptized? That's a question I want to work with people on.

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And I have another question I'm thinking about. And that is, when do you die with Christ?

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Is it when you get baptized? That's a question I want to ask people and I want to work through that issue with them.

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And I'm curious to know what that might be, what their answers might be on that, because I want to see.

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Let's see, looking for some stuff. Okay, okay.

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All right, just checking some other emails and stuff, waiting for people to come in. I have a debate set up with a guy,

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Dr. Sonny Hernandez. He's a Calvinist. And from what I understand, he denies that we have free will.

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I think that's what he denies. I am not sure if that is his position. I assume it is.

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And I emailed him today, asking for exactly what his position is and clarification, along with some definitions, clarifications, so that I can understand what his position is.

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That's all. And if he doesn't respond and just waits for the debate, then I'll have to ask the questions.

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What do you believe about this? How do you define these terms? Because I want to know what people think. Let's try, for when

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I'm on spring break in March, I'm working for a master's in biomedical sciences and have classes right now. Okay, I get that.

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So this Hernandez guy hasn't responded to me yet. I emailed him today.

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Well, I don't, you know, maybe it would take a day or two or three for him to provide some answers. Let's chat about traditions, means to Catholicism.

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Come on, guys, why don't you come on into the chat room here, all right? I think he's a hyper -Calvinist, yeah, but I don't know.

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People can commonly misunderstand what free will is. Oh, I totally agree with you. There's Nancy Smith, adding her to the stream.

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And so you have muted yourself, Nancy. So you have to unmute yourself.

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This is a new venue for you. There you go. You have to unmute yourself.

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This is a new venue for you. I want to turn down your speaker. I want to turn down your speaker.

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Yeah, I'll turn it off. Okay, I muted you just for a few seconds so that I can talk, but see if you can turn down your speaker because it's pretty loud and if you have a headset, have it go through the earpiece.

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That's what really works. So here we go. Okay, you're unmuted. Can you hear me? Okay. Are you there,

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Nancy? Can you hear me? Okay. Yeah. All right.

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Well, how are you, Nancy? Oh, I'm fine. Hanging in there. Okay. Are you...

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What church do you go to? I was going to ask. Everybody asks me, but I always refuse to give because my church has had some bad emails, but I go to a non -denominational.

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Okay. Non -denominational. All right. So you're not a Roman Catholic. That's good.

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No, I'm not. No. So you're on the Catholic Forum there, the Catholic Coffee House or the

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Reformed Coffee House? Yep. Okay. Are you reformed by any chance? I don't know what that means.

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Reformed theology is often described by the acronym TULIP, T -U -L -I -P, and T stands for total depravity, which says that a person is touched by sin and all that he is, heart, soul, mind, body, and because of it, he will never freely choose

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Christ because he's a slave of sin, a hater of God, et cetera. And U is unconditional election where God chooses who's to be saved from the foundation of the world.

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Ephesians 1, 4, and 5 talks about that. Limited atonement for L, Jesus only legally bore the sin of the elect.

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Not everybody ever lived. I is for irresistible grace, that at the time of regeneration, that you cannot resist

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God's regenerative work in you. And P, perseverance. We don't lose our salvation, but we persevere.

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Right. So that's basically what it is. And I'm a five -pointer. I just don't agree with the limited atonement, but...

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That's all right. It doesn't mean you can't be in here. It doesn't mean that, you know,

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I'm not going to get all over you if you have questions about it. Trust me, I can defend it really well, but...

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I know. I'm well aware. What's that? I'm well aware you can defend it.

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So I'm on your side, but... Yeah. Okay. It's all right. I don't agree with limited atonement because I believe that Jesus died for everyone.

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Only the elect will be the ones that receive that eternal life. Can I ask you some questions about that?

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I don't want to cross -examine you if you don't want to, and that's okay. Okay. I'm not trying to attack you. Okay. What does the phrase mean, to die for your sins?

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Well, in Jesus' case, he died for us to obliterate all our sins.

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So did he obliterate them on the cross, or did he not obliterate them on the cross? He died so that all who would believe their sins would be obliterated.

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Okay. So then, can I paste a verse in the text?

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Do you see the text? No, I can't. It's on the right -hand side.

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No. I think if what you... Or it might be... Yeah, you should be able to... I think...

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I don't know. I don't know how it is on the... With the... Just the view side. Let's see. I'm looking for anything here.

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So I don't know what you see, but on the right -hand side, is there anything on the right -hand side of your screen? Just a list or private chat or live comments.

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Yeah, live comments. Yeah, click on that. I don't see anything there. Well, let's see.

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If I were to post something in there, let's see what happens. I think I have to log in. Well, maybe not.

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I don't know. Because you're here in this. Do you see anything now? Nope. Okay. Well, do you have a

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Bible in front of you? I can give you a verse to look up. Nope. But I can go on Bible Gateway.

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All right. It's up to you. If you want, I can go through this with you. If you don't, that's okay. I'll just go through it.

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Because, I mean, I've been a Christian for like 57 years. Wow. So I pretty well know the scriptures. Pretty...

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Oh, good, man. Praise God. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Colossians 2 .14

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is, in my opinion, a killer verse that proves the necessity of unlimited atonement.

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That's my opinion on that verse. Okay. Read it, please. Okay. But verse 13, the last few words of verse 13, says,

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Having forgiven us all of our transgressions, verse 14, Having canceled out the certificate of debt, consisting of decrees which was hostile to us,

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He's taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Right. So the certificate of debt was nailed to the cross.

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Right. All right. What is the certificate of debt? What is that debt?

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That's our sin. Good. I would agree with you. So would you say, then, that it is saying that our sin debt is canceled at the cross?

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Yeah, definitely. So it's canceled at the cross, not when you believe, correct? Way before, like 2 ,000 years ago.

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Good. Did he cancel it for everybody or not everybody? I believe that it's dealt with, not canceled.

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Like it's paid for. Well, you just said it was canceled and the text says it was canceled. So was it canceled for everybody?

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For the believer, yes. But an unbeliever who would end up standing before the great white throne.

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But the question is. Will have to forfeit that and pay for it themselves. The question is, did

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Jesus cancel the sin debt at the cross? You said yes. Then the next question is, did he cancel it for everybody?

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It's either yes, he did, or no, he did not. If he canceled it for everybody, here's a question.

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How can anybody go to hell if there is no sin debt to judge them? Well, I remember somebody said a story one time about that the atonement is like you're at a restaurant with a bunch of people.

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A rich man walks in and says, look, I'm going to pay for their meal. But there are some at the table who say, no,

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I'm going to go wash dishes and pay for my meal. And so, you know, it's paid for.

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Somebody is going to get paid twice. Well, if Jesus paid for it, then it's paid for.

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And if they go to hell after Jesus paid for it, then they're also paying for it. They're paying for it twice.

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Right. And so that would be wrong because the sin debt is already canceled.

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If it's canceled, it doesn't exist. Is that correct? If it's canceled. If you do not allow the atoning blood to cleanse you, whether it's paid for or not, you aren't availing yourself of it.

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Is it canceled at the cross or is it not canceled at the cross? Well, you have to avail yourself of it.

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It is canceled, but you have to avail yourself. You have to jump into that river. So it's canceled at the cross.

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So if it's canceled for somebody, that means a sin debt doesn't exist. Right. Well, it exists until you die.

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How can it exist? How can it? How can it exist if it's been canceled at the cross? Because you have to receive it.

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It's a free gift. How can it exist if it's canceled at the cross?

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If it's wiped out, blotted away, it doesn't exist anymore, it's gone. Well, that certificate exists.

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You have to receive it. It doesn't say that. It doesn't say that. It says that he canceled the certificate of debt at the cross.

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Jesus canceled it. For believers. I agree. Just for believers, not for everybody. That's limited atonement.

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Okay, you trapped me. Yes, I did. Let me see.

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Let me back up and help you out a little bit. So sin is breaking the law of God. 1 John 3, 4. It's a transgression of the law.

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And Jesus said, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Forgive us our debts.

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That's Matthew 6, 12. But in the parallel in Luke 11, 4, he says, forgive us our sins.

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So Jesus equates sin with debt, with legal debt. In John 19, 30,

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Jesus said on the cross, it is finished. And in the Greek, in the Greek, that is to tell us die.

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And that to tell us die is the Greek word, which means let's get the right thing in here.

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That's good. To tell us die means is is back on track. That's what

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Jesus said on the cross. To tell us die is a word that's been found written in different pens, different hand handwriting at the bottom of ancient papyri tax receipts.

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Signifying a tax debt had been paid in full. Yeah, that's what Jesus said on the cross.

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He was talking about the legality of sin having been paid full on the cross. Jesus equated sin with legal debt.

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Sin is the transgression of the law and debts can be transferred. So if I were to go to a restaurant and forgot my wallet, which has never happened before and a friend of mine were to pay my debt.

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Then I'm going to put people on mute here until we're ready to talk a little bit more because the background noise. Then that debt has been transferred to somebody else and they were able to pay it.

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And so the sin debt was transferred to Christ. He bore our sin in his body on the cross.

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First Peter 2, 24. So what we would say is that Jesus canceled that certificate of debt at the cross.

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It is not canceled when you believe it's canceled at the cross. And it can only have been canceled.

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Oh, you have to go. It could only have been canceled for the elect. The ones given to him by the father.

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Because if he canceled it for everybody, then nobody can go to hell. Because there's no sin debt to be held against them.

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If someone says, well, you got to accept it. Except what? Except what? The sin debt doesn't exist.

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You're not accepting a non -existent thing. It's not a gift.

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It just doesn't exist. And so if I were to go to a restaurant and pay someone's bill.

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I go behind their back, so to speak. And I pay their bill. And they don't know that.

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And then they find out that I paid their bill. And they say, I don't accept that. Who cares?

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It's already paid. They can't unpay it. Whether they receive it or not is irrelevant.

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It has no bearing on the legality. So when Jesus canceled the certificate of debt.

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He did it at the cross. Logically speaking, it could only have been for the elect.

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The ones given to him by the father. That way, Jesus did not waste his blood. The blood of Christ is so powerful.

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It's sufficient to cleanse everybody, of course. But the legal aspect of that.

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Is what Jesus did on the cross. You can see that in the text now. Charlie put it in. Having canceled out the certificate of debt.

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Consisting of decrees against us. Which was hostile to us. You're referring to the whosoever's.

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No. The whosoever of John 3 .16. Yeah. Doesn't exist in the Greek. Maybe Charlie put

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John 3 .16. So what does it say in the Greek? It says for God so loved the world. He gave his only begotten son.

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That all the believing one. Okay. Would not perish.

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So that lines up with your elect thing. Yeah, it does. And the word for whosoever or whoever.

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Is the Greek word hos. Omicron Sigma. It's a rough breathing mark. Omicron Sigma. Or is it

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Omega? Omega Sigma. And it's not there in the Greek. But it does exist in the

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New Testament. And so we would say that the whosoever. And people are, you know, whoever believes.

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But they believe because God grants that they believe. Philippians 1 .29. Okay, I get it. That's our position.

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You know, you have to agree with it. But that's, it's pretty logical. It's pretty, pretty biblical. Let me get Chris back going here.

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Hey, Chris, Michael. Hey, buddy, how are you? How you doing, man? How's it going? It's going. You're a little over modulated.

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So there's just a little breaking up. That means turn your, turn your input down just a little bit.

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If you know how to do that. If you don't know how, I can tell you how. But where are you from? I'm in Greensboro, North Carolina.

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Okay, have you called? You probably have called the show before, right? Yeah, I've called a couple of times. I listen to you on the way home every night.

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So a couple of times I've thrown the phone up. And gave you a call. How you doing?

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Doing all right. Just having a really nice conversation with Nancy. Yeah. And trying to show why

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I believe in Limitless Atonement. And try not to be mean or attacking. A lot of people are like that. I used to be.

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I'm trying not to be like that. Well, you weren't mean to me. What's that? You were not.

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You were not mean to me. I was not. I can be. I can be obstreperous. You better not.

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My wife knows. Oh, yeah. That's right. She knows how it is. But yeah,

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I still blow it every now and then. So is Andrew Rappaport in the text? He's at the

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G3 conference, which I wanted to be there. It's in Atlanta, Georgia. So I didn't get to make it.

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Finances and stuff like that. But maybe next time we will. So, Charlie, want me to add you in?

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You can type in yes or no. Or just leave it open for others. Charlie is great.

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You guys may know who he is. But a lot of people don't know this. This is the truth. This is absolutely the truth.

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Charlie, who's here. Charlie is the one who read me the quote back in 1980.

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I think it was 80 or 71 or 79. But we say 80. We had a Bible study. I don't know who this guy was.

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He comes up, we're talking. He reads me a quote from Joseph Smith, where Joseph Smith boasted he did more than Jesus to keep a church together.

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That got me so mad. That quote that Charlie is the one who read to me is what got me started doing apologetics.

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So you can blame Charlie. That's right. He blames me all the time.

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That's right. He's the one. I still remember that. He came up and I remember thinking, who is this guy?

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What's he talking about? And he read, I went, what? He got my attention. And I ripped the paper out of his head.

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I don't know who this guy was. Who said that? And he said, Joseph Smith. I go, who's that? And he said, he's the founder of Mormonism.

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And I said, well, Mormons are Christians, but this guy is not. And he said, no, Mormons are not Christians. I said, what?

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Why not? So he's the first one to teach me about Mormonism. Wow.

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Now they're going to come after me. What's that? Now everybody's going to come after me. That's right.

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I'm going to post your address. That's right. Don't blame me. Blame Charlie. So Charlie and I did a lot of ministry work together.

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How long have we known each other? Well, since at least 1980. It's got to be 40 years.

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Yeah, it's 40 years or 41. Because I think it might have been in 79. But I don't know.

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I just say that I started in 1980. Whenever the calendar changes each year, I just add a year.

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So that's what I do. So that's good. So Charlie's the one. Charlie's the one.

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All right, Chris. So, hey, buddy, you got a tulip shirt on. Yeah, you know what? That's it.

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It's a good conversation starter, too. When I go out and someone says, what's that mean? I say, well,

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I can bring it up to them and do my best to explain it to them and share the gospel with them.

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So I like to wear stuff that starts a conversation up. Well, you know, I used to have a shirt that said, literally, ask me your toughest question about God in the

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Bible. And I wore it for a year or two, off and on. Only one person ever asked me a question.

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I answered it in 20 seconds and that was it done. They knew who you were. Well, you know, it doesn't help when you walk around with your chest out like this.

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Ask me a question. So maybe that was part of the problem. I don't know. But that shirt was awesome.

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I need some more shirts. I want to start a T -shirt business, too. I do.

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And trying to be, you know, trying to do what I got to do to survive and all that kind of stuff. But I get a lot of ideas for T -shirts, off and on for a few years.

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And things like, you know, www .karm .org, karm and get it, you know, just stupid things.

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And what was it? Well, I got a file someplace. I got to unearth it. At any rate.

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So if you guys want to join, that's a StreamYard link. You can just do that. We have up to six people in at a time.

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And so there you go. I was hoping the Roman Catholics would come in and we could have a discussion.

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I was hoping the baptismal regenerationists would come in. Can I teach you guys about baptism? Some stuff I've been learning. Yeah, go for it.

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We probably disagree, so I'm listening. That's all right. That's all right. Let me do this.

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I don't have it all worked out. Wait a minute. Let me get my notes. Maybe my notes might help. I'm developing.

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You know how I have outlines on Calvinism? I'm doing outlines on Catholicism, outlines on baptism and things like that.

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And I'm still formulating some ideas about all of this because it's like, OK, all right,

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I see that. What does it mean? And some things like that. And as you guys probably know,

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I believe Jesus was sprinkled in his baptism. I do. And so you don't have to believe that, but that's what

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I believe. So I was doing some studying and let me get to the verses.

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Scroll down here. OK, where are they? Come on. I got a lot of verses. There we go.

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Yeah, I need to get to Acts 1 .5 and I'll post that in here.

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And then we'll talk about this a little bit. This is what Acts 1 .5 says. I don't know if you guys can see the chat text at all.

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You guys able to see that? No. All right. OK, what

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I'll do then. Problem is that if I paste it and then I anchor it. He did it.

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Charlie did it. Then it scrolls up when we lose it. So he's great. He's great. OK, for John baptized with water, but you'll be baptized with the

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Holy Spirit not many days from now. What does it mean to be baptized with the Holy Spirit?

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Now, we could talk about the effects of the baptism of the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues and things like that. But I mean, in the sense of the

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Old Testament speaks of the Holy Spirit being poured. And there's plenty of places where that is the case.

31:01

And, for example, I'll just post some in here and then maybe Charlie can, you know, make him go into text there while I continue to post a few.

31:11

So you can see as we go through some what the Bible is saying because it says he will do this.

31:19

And let's see. Here we go. Oh, is it working?

31:26

Yeah. And so there's that one. Let's see. You can see that's number four is out of my outline notes.

31:36

So let me go to number two. Come on, go to number two. Oops, I'm going to undo that one and do that one.

31:42

OK, there we go. So I went to number three because it moved. I will have poured out my spirit on the house of Israel.

31:51

All right. And this one says I will pour out my spirit on your offspring.

31:59

This one says that I will pour out my spirit on all mankind quoted in Acts 217.

32:10

All right. So we can understand that it means to pour out. That's what it means when the

32:16

Spirit's here in the Old Testament prophecy. So when we go to Acts 1 .5

32:22

get back over to that. We go to Acts 1 .5.

32:30

It says this. OK. The question that is when it says baptized with the

32:41

Holy Spirit. That's what the baptism is that was spoken of the pouring forth of the Spirit.

32:47

So would you agree with me that the second word baptized there deals with the pouring forth pouring upon.

32:53

Yeah. Makes sense. Mr. Tulip over here.

32:59

His total depravity is showing and he does not want to give in.

33:04

I could tell but so I'm razzing him but it's worth it.

33:11

So it does say that I'm like OK I'm thinking about that. All right. So if that's the case and let me show you some other stuff here.

33:18

OK. Let's see. I'll show you this.

33:25

This is Acts 2 .33. OK. These are different parts of different things in my outline which is why

33:31

I have the numbers in the front like number one being different. Act 2 .33 the promise of the

33:36

Holy Spirit he has poured forth this which you both see and hear. That's the speaking in tongues movement of the

33:43

Holy Spirit that proves that the Old Testament prophecy of pouring forth is what's happening.

33:52

And we know from Acts 1 .5 John baptized with water he'll baptize you with the

34:00

Holy Spirit not many days from now. So I believe that the baptism with the Holy Spirit must mean the

34:06

Holy Spirit was poured upon them a pouring forth. I don't see how anybody can get out of that.

34:12

Now along with that let's see if I got my notes in here.

34:20

Hold on a sec. Whoops. OK. Now I'm going to put some verses in and I'll highlight them.

34:35

So here's what the Bible says in some stuff. OK. I hope that's big enough or might be too big. Let's see if it shows.

34:43

Whoops. There we go. Then the men who were designated by name arose took the captives they clothed all their naked ones from the spoil and they gave them clothes and sandals fed them with drink and anointed them with oil.

34:56

OK. Now the anointed with oil what does that mean? Does it mean they were buried in oil or does it mean they took oil and applied it to them?

35:03

Poured out all over them. Poured on sprinkled on whatever it would be. All right.

35:09

I agree. Let's try a shorter one. So this come on get in there takes a bit for it to go through all the stuff it does.

35:23

There we go. Then I bathed you with water washed off your blood from you with anointing oil.

35:31

Now the bathe with water then I bathed you with water. Does that mean water was applied to them or they were immersed?

35:40

Well we did context and we could see but look at this this is

35:45

Mark not Mark Micah 615 it says this you will sow but you will not reap you will tread the olive but will not anoint yourself with oil and the grapes but you will not drink wine.

36:02

So anointing we can see many places where anointing means to apply something to somebody. That's how it's used.

36:10

Water is used to anoint. In fact you know what I just realized I can share my screen.

36:16

I'm going to do that. All right. That might just make it better. Let's see.

36:22

Share screen which one am I going to do? Not that one.

36:30

Hold on and here we go. Can you guys you guys see that?

36:36

See the screen? Yeah. Okay. That makes it so much easier. All right. So let me undo that hide that.

36:44

All right. So notice what it says here. For example

36:49

James 514 it says is anyone among you sick that he must call for the elders of the church and they pray over him anointing him with oil.

37:00

Mark 613 above they were casting out demons and were anointing with oil.

37:05

That means to apply the oil to somebody. Look at this Exodus 29 for then you shall bring

37:13

Aaron and his sons to the doorway of the tent of meeting and wash them with water. Does that mean they apply the water to them or they immersed in water in a doorway?

37:25

They were washed and they were anointed with so to speak. The water was applied to them in different places. All right.

37:32

Notice what it says here in Exodus 30 20. Is it big enough on the screen for you guys to see

37:38

I can make it bigger? If I wore my glasses. Well here let me do this. How's that?

37:44

That bigger? Better? Yes. Okay. I can do that and I can make it even bigger.

37:50

There we go. Now it's ominous. Good. All right. When they were entered the tent of the meeting they shall wash with water when they enter the tent of the meeting.

38:00

This can only mean the water was applied to them. Look at Mark 1 8 says I baptize you with water but he will baptize you with the

38:08

Holy Spirit. I think that we can make a strong case that to baptize with water means the water is applied to them.

38:18

Not me. Okay. All right. Okay. What I think you're doing though Yeah is you're joining up water baptism with the baptism of the

38:35

Holy Spirit which is a subsequent experience. Well, but Mark 1 8 it says

38:41

I baptize you with water but he'll baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Mm -hmm. That's right there together.

38:47

I'm just reading what it says. Well, I was baptized with water and I was immersed. That's fine.

38:53

I don't have any problem with immersion. I was baptized with the Holy Spirit but he poured it out on me. I don't have any problem with that but I'm just looking at the text right now.

39:02

Can we make a case do you think that if it's true that they were that water was applied to them, oil is applied to them and blood is applied to them and since the the

39:11

Holy Spirit baptism is the pouring on forth and that's what it means there that this word for example right here baptized must mean the pouring forth.

39:20

Yeah. Can this mean the pouring forth the first baptism? That's just a question.

39:26

Yeah. I don't Okay. I don't see it but I mean Okay. for a lack of having a place to immerse

39:33

I mean I'm sure that you could pour water on someone it would still be the same power. Well, let's let's consider that.

39:39

All right. Let me see if I can pull this file up here. Let's see if I've got it. Oh man.

39:47

Now I'm going to have to open up. I mean God doesn't stand on that. Ceremony, you know.

39:53

Oh, he doesn't he does not stand on the ceremony. That is so true. So what I'm going to do is open up an

40:00

Excel file. Hopefully I can find an Excel file we can talk about just another window. I've got three 27 inch monitors here.

40:09

Come on. Open up. I'm talking. I talk to my computers. I used to be a computer tech for five years.

40:16

I learned to speak at computers I talked to them. Well, I've heard you talk about you needing a new one, so.

40:22

Well, a lot of people do. And why is that not opening? That is so strange.

40:27

It won't open. That is weird. You have another another.

40:33

If you have another Excel window open sometimes it won't open up. Right. Oh, there we go. So I want to do it just took a bit.

40:41

I wanted to open and look for a file. Normally I have things pinned and I have a lot of stuff.

40:48

Yahtzees word count page book baptism. Here we go.

40:54

Baptism table. Is that it? Calculations of baptism. OK. All right.

41:00

I'll make this bigger, too. I was just playing around when I was talking to somebody on the phone. I used to teach Excel. So I love

41:06

Excel. Check this out. Let's just go this way.

41:14

Three thousand people were baptized in one day. All right. Hypothetically if the three thousand were baptized being baptized by twelve people and it was for eight hours the number of baptisms per hour would have to be thirty one and a quarter which means one point nine two minutes or one.

41:37

Yeah. So basically two minutes. OK. Per baptism. All right.

41:43

That's just water baptized all three thousand. Yes, it does. They're baptized it says.

41:50

That's another topic. Yeah. Yeah. They're baptized. OK. And so if we assume it's the water which

41:57

I have no problem with at all and we don't know how many people were doing the baptisms. I'm just throwing some numbers out just to look.

42:03

That's all. This is just an exercise and we don't know how many hours a day they're doing it and things like that. OK. So that would mean one point or basically two minutes per baptism.

42:15

Now check this out. The temperature of the Jordan I've been to the Jordan I've seen it I've touched it it's cold.

42:22

The average overall average temperature is 53 degrees right there. Here make this bigger.

42:28

All right. The overall average temperature of the Jordan is 53 degrees it goes from 55 to 63 degrees.

42:35

That's what they that's what it is now. Who knows what it was 2000 years ago but that's what we have now. All right. Hypothermia.

42:43

Generally a person can survive in 41 degree water for 10 to 15 to 20 minutes before muscle weakness gets you.

42:51

All right. Before and you lose coordination and strength in water that's 60 degrees a person will experience loss of dexterity in 40 minutes and exhaustion in two to seven hours.

43:04

Now I used to live in Southern California used to go out surfing bodyboarding had a lot of fun and I remember once I went out in 58 degree water

43:12

I had a spring suit on and which meant like shorts and stuff but it was a wetsuit full up to the wrist and down to shorts and had a slight worn hole in the back.

43:24

I was out for two hours and I came in because I could no longer feel my legs.

43:30

I was rubbing my skin together and my legs and couldn't feel my legs and I I said okay

43:35

I couldn't feel I didn't feel cold. So I said okay I'm in trouble I need to get out now and so I just quit and had to recover because I was going through hypothermia.

43:45

I didn't realize it but nevertheless so if they were in the water the baptizing people were in that cold water for eight hours baptizing would they be subject to hypothermia?

43:59

Just a question. It would make more sense to say they were being sprinkled wouldn't it?

44:06

I mean if sprinkling was done it wouldn't be a problem but if it's immersion there's a potential of a problem and how about this it says that 5 ,000 people believed in Acts 4 .4

44:24

but as far as John the Baptist goes it says in Matthew 3 .5 that Jerusalem was going out to him and all

44:32

Judea and all the districts around Jordan Mark 1 .5 and all the country of Judea was going out to him and all the people of Jerusalem were being baptized by him into Jordan Matthew 3 .3

44:43

but this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet the voice of the one crying in the wilderness making ready okay so we don't know how many people do you think were being baptized by him in six months okay how many people do you think were baptized by him in six months because and I did some research the average estimate of the population of Jerusalem at that time was around 40 ,000 people

45:09

I've seen up to 600 ,000 I've seen down to 20 ,000 but they usually go 20 to 60 as a population that goes around Israel we know that there had to be a million or 2 million people maybe 3 or 4 million people because thousands of people would die in battles

45:28

I've been to Israel and you can have a lot of people there but anyway how many people do you think that John the

45:35

Baptist baptized in six months pick a number and I'll put it right here in this square 5 ,000 10 ,000 20 ,000 50 ,000 what do you think anybody got a guess maybe 10 10

45:50

I've got right there anybody else want to venture a guess we'll average them 50 50 50 ,000 so let's say 25 then okay 25 ,000 can you guys still see my screen the

46:06

Excel spreadsheet oh no you see the water you see that that's interesting okay let me unshare it and then

46:17

I'll reshare it okay share screen and I thought you were seeing my screen and that it was changing where is it log us get all these screens okay hold on wow screen let's just try this screen one there we go okay now you see it all right that's screen one okay good so if 25 ,000 people then that would mean that he would have to have been baptizing if he did it for 26 weeks at seven days a week

46:56

I gave him six hours a day to do that which means long story short he'd have to be baptizing a person every roughly every three minutes seven days a week in the

47:13

Jordan River it becomes problematic when you start going okay is that really possible for one person to do that for that length of period standing in cold water risking hypothermia these are just questions

47:29

I've been doing a lot of research on baptism and just doing a lot of thinking about these issues and let's see if I can unshare the screen there we go so you see you start adding you go well it's interesting it doesn't prove anything it's circumstantial but after a while enough circumstantial evidence comes forth and you start going well wait a minute what's going on and so I suspect that the baptism that they were going through the 3 ,000 the 5 ,000 what

48:05

John the Baptist was doing was done by sprinkling or pouring at least we know why he wore camel hair now he was cold oh there you go but there's another reason he wore camel hair because he was from the house of Zechariah who was a temple worker and Elijah wore what camel's hair mantle so maybe they had that mantle in the temple or in the the area and he got it because Jesus prophesied one coming will be

48:42

Elijah it'll be him so maybe it was that camel hair that's circumstantial like that one yeah so that's just some of the stuff well it doesn't hurt to believe that it was sprinkling it really doesn't change anything no

49:01

I think it's interesting but it would have an effect let me show you how it'll have an effect on something else all right let me get to this again

49:11

I'll share my screen and I'll show you something come on remember this decision okay all right we do that we go here screen one again and now what

49:28

I'll do is I will show you let's see I'll put this up this is a little bit easier to work with and what

49:38

I'm going to do is go to I'll make this bigger how do

49:44

I do that again it's been a while go to here nope oh man they changed it how they did things

49:54

I think it's here then that's right all right so what was

50:04

I going to do I forgot you're asking an old woman I don't remember well

50:10

I'm 63 I'm up there you know I got but I was trying to get the tech thing going I've been working all day real hard so what was

50:17

I doing I was going to show you something in the scriptures oh yeah Romans 6 4 thank you very much let's go to Romans 6 look at this what shall we say then are we to continue in sin that grace may increase may never be how shall we die to sin still live in it hey baptized by Jesus how are you doing buddy you have to unclick your mic oh there you go can

50:39

I make a comment sure you know you were talking about the the baptism in Acts 238 when they couldn't have actually baptized 2 ,000 people 3 ,000 well they could have

50:56

I mean it's just how how the math work out that's all I've got a theory that water baptism ended after John the

51:04

Baptist baptized Jesus and all that was that in Acts 238 was the baptism of the

51:11

Holy Spirit well that's refuted by Acts 10 44 through 48 because it says the

51:18

Holy Spirit fell upon them they poured the gifts of the Holy Spirit poured out on them no one can refuse water for these to be baptized that's

51:26

Acts 10 so water baptism did not fall out they're just right there no because Peter made a mistake in Acts 10 48 okay okay hold on hold on we've talked before I know

51:39

I know where this is gonna go no matter what but you're not listening okay I'm I'm gonna mute him okay muted him and the reason is

51:49

I know who he is I've talked to him and when I show him the text Peter made a mistake and it's all wrong about Peter etc etc

51:56

I'm not gonna do that I'm not going into it so so let's get back to the text

52:01

I was gonna talk about all right so this is what it says or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into his death now let's assume the baptism is immersion let's just assume assume that therefore we have been buried and it makes sense this this is good buried with him in baptism through baptism into death so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the father so we too might be might walk into this of life for if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection so notice what it says right there okay it is saying that if it means immersion then we have the identification of if it means by burial it makes sense what happens if it if it's sprinkling or pouring so let's just say that therefore we have been poured upon in our baptism unto death so that as Christ is raised from the dead through the glory of the father so we too might walk into this of life if we become united in the likeness of his death certainly we shall be in the likeness of his resurrection now when

53:17

I first thought of it this way I thought okay that doesn't really make sense but I don't want to just reject something right away so I was thinking about it and I noticed the next verse knowing this that our old self was crucified with him in order that a body of sin might be done away with so here's a question when was our old self crucified with Christ when was our old self crucified with Christ what's the answer when he was crucified on the cross right yeah and we died with Christ well when did he die on the cross now this only makes sense if he represented his people okay called federal headship another topic so I started looking at that going okay this is why

54:10

I want to discuss the issue of baptism does it relate to the issue of sprinkler if it does

54:15

I'm just I'm just having fun I'm not saying this is what it is I'm just going back and forth let's look at this let's look at that and sometimes it helps me to talk about it and I go no

54:24

I don't think I like that you know maybe I do and stuff like that this is what I'm doing if it means sprinkler or pouring which is an anointing which

54:34

I believe is also a covenant sign then the covenant sign is what identifies us with his death his death and burial resurrection now

54:44

I'm wearing a covenant sign my ring and it's a covenant sign of my marriage the rainbow is a covenant sign of of you know of the earth don't flood the earth again communion is a covenant sign now circumcision is a covenant sign and Paul relates them doesn't equate them but he relates circumcision and baptism in Colossians 2 11 and 12 you've been buried with a circumcision made without hands having been you've been circumcised with a circumcision made without hands having been buried with him in baptism all right so then he relates them to what extent are they related

55:22

I don't know yet and I'm thinking about that. It doesn't say, so I don't know how far

55:27

I can go into that, but if it is that baptism is a covenant sign, then it would make sense if the sprinkling or the pouring and or the the immersion, which

55:38

I have no problem with either, would then be an identification with what

55:43

Christ did 2 ,000 years ago, where we were crucified with Him, and it cannot mean that that is where we are crucified with Christ or die with Christ in our baptism.

55:55

All right, makes sense, right? Yeah, so these are some of the things that I'm thinking about.

56:01

Okay, all right, and I got more, but that's okay for now.

56:08

You guys got any comments or questions? Unrelated, I just wanted to ask you a quick question, your opinion on this, or knowledge of, or a little both, but so like Isaiah 10, 1,

56:23

I'm sure you're aware of that, you know, that's the woe to those who enact evil statutes, iniquitous decrees, unjust laws.

56:34

In your opinion, do you believe that that applies to today as far as people signing unjust laws in the law, like even here in America?

56:47

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so that's, we're on the same page with that. I think it could apply.

56:52

Now, this is a serious, is God's instrument, it's a judgment, you know, we look at the context to see if it's covenantally only about a certain group of people, but then

57:01

I think in the New Testament we can see certain warnings about unjustness and things like that, but I think, you know, we could say yeah, the principle is still true.

57:11

Right, and actually, you met, you met the guy

57:16

Cali, I heard you on the radio talking about you met him at a conference out your way, the one that has all the piercings and stuff and the tattoos on his face.

57:25

Oh yeah, yeah, he was a nice guy. Yeah, did you get his book, did he give you a copy of his book when you were there?

57:30

I don't remember. Okay, it's called the Doctrine of Balaam, but that book, but if you haven't read it, read it, it's excellent, but that talks about, it's a polemic against the mainstream pro -life movement, but what

57:45

I believe, honestly, is when they saw, when someone signs into law something, a regulatory abortion bill, say for instance, instead of them, you know, outlawing it, abolishing it, whatever, they're actually making a decree that says you shall, you shall still murder babies that are under 20 weeks, basically, that's the one that's, so, in your opinion, would you consider that an iniquitous decree by, yes, awesome, thank you,

58:16

I just wanted to get your opinion on that, that's, yeah, I will,

58:21

I will not, you know, participate in that, you know,

58:26

I remember what we lost a son, we had a son who was born and he was born with holoprosencephaly, and he, okay,

58:36

I'm gonna kick, I'm not gonna let him in, he's just gonna argue, baptized by Jesus, it's just gonna go ridiculous, so because he came back in,

58:46

I'm banning him, all right, I kicked him, he came back in, I don't want to go through the, sorry, but the idiocy of his argument,

58:53

I've discussed it with him before, it's, it's meritless, so my wife and I, we had, we lost a son, we lost him to a birth defect, and we knew he was gonna die when he was born, he had something called holoprosencephaly, and I remember being in the room, so we could mute their mics or whatever, oh, a little baby, let's see, let's see, hold on a sec, let's see,

59:18

I'm gonna stop sharing my screen here, okay, let's see, hey cutie, hey, what's your name?

59:29

Hi, I'm Eliza, how old are you?

59:38

Three years old, that's awesome, she can read too, what's that say?

59:49

Go ahead, read it, just read it to him, it's all right, so I was just saying that, hey

01:00:10

Bill, just saying that, let me add Bill and add

01:00:15

Charlie back in, there we go, so we have five in, we have room for one more, so anyway, we discovered, my wife and I were in the room together when they told us that he had a birth defect, and they offered abortion, and I was so proud of my wife, she just told the lady, don't you ever bring it up again, we're not doing that, and I was so proud of her, oh man, it was, it was just, she was one of the most, it's one of those beautiful moments of my life, that's my wife right there, and she was the one that's gonna carry this child, and go through the pain of childbirth, only to bury the child, yes, yeah, and that's what we had to do, but that's, you know, so been through some stuff, and I'm with you, abortion is horrendous, and it should be outlawed, right, that's right, and those got any comments or questions, we got

01:01:10

Nancy in there, we got Bill, someone's got a cat picture, that looks like our cat, that's my, that's my new chihuahua, oh,

01:01:22

I see the cat, never mind, oh, that's your, no, I was looking at the cat one, cats are better than dogs,

01:01:29

I like cats better, okay, so everybody got any comments or questions, come on,

01:01:36

I guess no Catholics are gonna show up, and, and stuff, you know, say goodbye, say goodbye, we're gonna get going,

01:01:42

Matt, God bless you buddy, God bless, nice meeting you, we'll see ya, she's so cute,

01:01:52

I think they're too afraid to face you, I think so too, I think so, they're just full of bluster, yeah, you know,

01:01:59

I'm not a mean guy, I mean, come on, you know, we'll just talk, and if they say something, you know, we'll deal with it, now, that guy there, just so you know, because people can say, then why did you kick that guy out,

01:02:10

I've had discussions with him before, he doesn't hear anything, doesn't listen, no matter what you say, you're wrong, and he has his position, and that's the right position, there's no discussion, and it's just ridiculous,

01:02:23

Peter made a mistake, yeah, in Acts 8, they went under the water, yeah, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, he just says it, why do you say abortion is horrendous, if it was decreed by God, well, do you mean, what do you think decree means,

01:02:41

PK, do you think decree means that God wants it to happen, and he's just gonna done, is that what you think it means, because you have to understand, there's a direct and indirect decree,

01:02:56

God directly decrees by saying, let there be light, but he indirectly decrees by allowing you to ask questions like that, to allow you to ask a question that reveals your ignorance about what the decree really means, and how it works in theology, see, as he stopped you from your display of not having a sufficient understanding of what that word decree means, he hasn't, he's allowed you to do that, and that's within his decree to allow you to misunderstand his decrees, okay, so don't make the mistake of thinking that if God decrees something, that he permits it, that is what we call this, his prescriptive will, prescriptive will is thou shalt not lie, but he wills to let you lie, so you could then say, well, is it

01:03:48

God's will that you lie, yes, well then how can you explain that, and you see, people don't, they stop thinking, they don't listen, and if you don't want to listen, if you don't want to have a conversation where we just think rationally, well then, you know, please don't bother me,

01:04:03

I've had this conversation so many times, and I've said the same thing so many times, you know, you need to understand the terms that you're using, and I can help explain that,

01:04:12

I'd be glad to, it's just like the word will, does God will the people sin, yes he does, in what sense does he will that they sin, does he will by causing them, no, does he will it by permitting it, yes, thou shalt not lie, that's

01:04:28

God's prescriptive will, it's a prescription, it's he wills to let you lie, and that's a will that he has to, to permit you to lie, he wills to permit you to do that, think of this, here's first Ephesians 1 11, also we have, oh yes right, you don't see the screen anymore, also we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to its purpose, who works all things after the counsel of his will, that means, so people who lie, it's worked after the counsel of God's will, does it mean that God wants them to lie, no, so when people bring up this issue of decree, abortion was a decree of God, therefore it's his, you know, he wanted it, no, no, we say it's his permissive will, he permits people to do evil things, and that's what we say within that permissive decree, we would say permissive will actually, okay, all right, that's all that it is, what's it mean to permit, what does it mean to permit something, let's see, dictionary .com,

01:05:42

permit, to allow to do something, to allow to be done or to occur, to grant permission to do something, how's that, that good enough,

01:05:55

God grants his permission, allows us to rebel against him, okay, so PK, what church do you go to or are you an atheist or what, if you refuse to answer my question,

01:06:14

I won't answer any more your questions, I know it takes about 30 seconds for the cycle to go through and the tech to work, so PK, what church you go to, etc.,

01:06:24

or are you an atheist or what, I just want to know, because it helps me to cater an answer to you better, okay, all right,

01:06:35

I mean, I'll take a bet here, the Armenian is saved too because both cats believe the essentials of Christianity, that's right,

01:06:41

Angela, that's correct, what's Proverbs 16 9 say, let's see, someone put that up,

01:06:48

Proverbs 16 9, the mind of a man plans his ways, but the Lord directs his steps, there you go, that's like, no,

01:06:56

I never said Calvinism teaches God wants people to do abortion, okay, then

01:07:01

I'm not sure I understand your question, you know, you got to understand, give me a little bit of grace here, because what do

01:07:07

I do for a living, I answer challenges, I answer attacks, and sometimes a

01:07:12

Christian who's asking us an innocent question might ask the exact same question that has been used aggressively against me so many times,

01:07:20

I go, wait a minute, it's so, you know, so give me a little bit of grace there if I didn't get that right, that's like, no, not atheist, coming from a

01:07:27

Pentecostal Church, man, okay, well, if you're united Pentecostal, that would be a cult, but maybe we got his discussion, come on in, we could talk about it if you want, the, let's see, yeah, that's the link if you want to participate, it helps to have a, helps to have a camera, you don't have to have one, but it helps to, you have to have a microphone, otherwise it's, there's no use coming in, so you guys like the radio show, yep, how long,

01:08:03

Nancy, how long have you been listening, and where do you live, if I can ask you, I'm in Southern Ontario, Canada, oh,

01:08:11

I've been watching you on and off for maybe a year and a half now, okay, good, all right, good, how about Bill, or anybody else in the chat, tell me,

01:08:29

Matt Slick, no, in fact, I agree 100 % with what you said about Brendan Missell, well, okay,

01:08:35

PK, sorry about that, I do get a little, just a little, I had to admit it, a little knee -jerkish, but with sometimes people's, you know, they say things certain ways, sorry,

01:08:44

I'm working on it, still, I'm still quite human, he does that to me, too, all the time, yeah, but you deserve it, but after 40 years, you know, no, you're lucky

01:08:56

I still like you, and I don't share that picture I sent you the other day, oh, that's right, there's some embarrassing pictures, that's right, you have to like me, you're predestined to do that, so you don't have any choice in the matter, how about that, the people use that, take it out of context, let's see,

01:09:16

I'm reading the text, so where the church of the Bible, not sure what that means, community non -denominational, most of them are not

01:09:24

Calvinist, okay, have I have a hard time finding one, too, so many of my area seekers sensitive,

01:09:30

I think I have been listening to the radio show for one or two years,

01:09:36

I think longer on YouTube, okay, I would say so preaching, speaking in tongues of baptism, heresies,

01:09:42

I like, I believe in speaking in tongues, I don't believe it's a heresy, but there are heresies associated with it,

01:09:49

I've been here about a year and a half, really, the room's been open that long, oh, my itch, there we go, sorry about that, let's see,

01:10:00

Randy, Missouri, AIG, Memether, interesting, I've been listening to four years since you've been in Nampa, I like reading people what they actually say, tease them on it,

01:10:14

I've been listening to four years since you've been in Nampa, okay, and let's see what else,

01:10:23

I've certainly made my mistakes, too, with grammar and things like that, yeah, I'm going through my novel for the third or fourth time before I release it, my sci -fi novel,

01:10:35

I keep finding grammar errors, I keep finding things in there, you know, you started watching, send it to me, you're a freelance editor, yeah, really, what's that, self -taught, but I have edited a couple books, okay, well, maybe

01:10:55

I'll send it to you, you should email me, okay, info at CARM .org, just email me and I can send you the file, as long as you promise not to send it to anybody, no,

01:11:05

I won't, no, you won't promise, no, I won't do that, okay, I'm just checking, so, yeah, you know, it's 83 ,000 words,

01:11:18

I think, so, well, that's why I picked up on your little error today with incapable, incapable, well, that was you, yeah, incapable, capable, is it, yeah, when people, it was it, where was that, though, in an article,

01:11:35

I think, on the forums, oh, yeah, that's right, I tried to, tried to find it to correct it, but, oh, well,

01:11:44

I use a speech program, and so, I do pretty well with it, but it's another missed stuff,

01:11:51

I've been typing so long that I have carpal tunnel, and so, as soon as I feel it burn,

01:11:59

I stop, and I have to use this, oh, yeah, yeah, and plus, I feel pain extra, most, most and more, more than most people do,

01:12:07

I'm hypersensitive, I've had doctors just be amazed at what I can, I feel and sense, let's get to PK, hey,

01:12:14

PK, how are you doing, buddy, hey, good, man, can you hear me, yes, I can hear you, sweet, yeah, where are you from,

01:12:23

I'm from Australia, yeah, you're not, really, you're in Australia right now, yeah, no, put the camera out, let's see the fires, but I put out the window, oh, man, that looks cool, and the earth is flat, that doesn't make sense, so, okay,

01:12:52

PK, what's up, man, yeah, I actually had a question, a guy called

01:12:59

Wayne, I think, called on your show a couple of days ago, I don't know if you remember, I talked to a lot of people, so,

01:13:07

I don't know, yeah, there's actually two questions, but I got him to ask that question for me, it was about John 1247, okay, but he was on, about regeneration, preceding faith, right,

01:13:22

Galatians 326, it says, you've become a child of God through faith, so,

01:13:28

I was wondering how you explain that, yeah, I believe, are you Reformed, by any chance, all right, so, you'll be discussed the issue of regeneration, preceding faith, vice versa, and all that, yeah, yeah, and specifically looking at Galatians 326, well, it says, you're all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, so, it doesn't mean that that would not address an issue of the

01:13:58

Ordo, the order of solution, or the order, it wouldn't address it, it just says, you're sons of God through faith, that's all it is, yeah, what does it mean to be a son of God, isn't that regeneration, yeah, you're born again through faith, yeah, so, would you say, okay, let me ask you a question here, how long, a period of time, do you think it exists, there's no right answer, but, you know, how long do you think it exists, a time between faith and regeneration, or are they instantaneously together?

01:14:37

No, I think regeneration comes after. Okay, how long after? Instantly.

01:14:45

I heard you debate someone, like the light bulb analogy that you gave, that's brilliant,

01:14:50

I like that. Okay, thanks, well, if you say they happen simultaneously, then welcome to the club.

01:14:58

Not simultaneously, I believe faith causes it, so, it's an analogy, it's not perfect, but it's like close to it.

01:15:05

So, hold on, if faith causes it, is it God that causes it, or is it faith that causes it?

01:15:12

It's faith. So, faith is a substance kind of a thing that automatically causes regeneration?

01:15:22

Well, no, it's not a substance, but like it says through faith, it doesn't say through God in that verse,

01:15:28

I'm just scoffing at the verse. No, but I'm asking the question, see, faith causes regeneration, in what sense does it cause it?

01:15:35

Is it an automatic necessity that by the nature of faith, it has its own nature and power in order to automatically bring about regeneration, or is it that when we have faith,

01:15:48

God is the one who regenerates us? Yeah, I can see what you're saying, but if you say by itself doesn't cause it, yeah.

01:16:01

There you go. So, then it would have to be that God is the one who regenerates you, right?

01:16:09

Yeah. And so, it's not faith that regenerates you, but faith is something that God grants to you,

01:16:16

Philippians 129 says so, you agree with that, right? Yeah, but that verse also says he grants persecution.

01:16:23

Yes, it does. So, I'm saying the same tense that he grants that you suffer, he also grants faith. I don't think it's the same meaning.

01:16:30

Well, that's what are different words, suffer and faith, they're different things, but he grants both.

01:16:36

No, I mean, you're saying that he irresistibly causes you to have faith, and it uses that same word to mean he irresistibly causes you to be suffering.

01:16:43

Oh, didn't say that, didn't say that. Irresistible grace, right?

01:16:48

That's what you're getting at. No, irresistible grace means at the point of regeneration that you cannot resist

01:16:54

God's regenerative work, and no, that wasn't where I was going. I was simply focusing on the issue of is it faith itself that brings regeneration, or is it

01:17:02

God who brings regeneration? Obviously, it has to be God, but if we're talking about the simultaneous effect of things, well, since it's

01:17:11

God who grants that we believe, Philippians 1, 29, and our believing is the work of God, John 6, 28, 29, then we'd have to say that God grants both, regeneration as well as faith, right?

01:17:24

Right. So if he grants regeneration and faith, then we have to ask more questions.

01:17:30

Well, if he grants both, then we have to ask, does he grant them simultaneously, or does he grant them temporally, one before the other?

01:17:38

Because if we believe, hypothetically, for five seconds before we're regenerate or born again, and I'm not saying five seconds is the right number, but then that would mean then we're a believer without being regenerate for a period of time, but if it's reversed, where regeneration comes first and then say five seconds later we believe, then we have a regenerate person who's not a believer for a period of time, and there are logical problems with that, with both of those.

01:18:06

That's why I hold to the logical necessity or the logical priority of regeneration preceding faith, but they happen simultaneously, because it's a necessary result of God's regenerative work in us, where he also grants faith to us.

01:18:22

That's what I believe, anyway. Yeah, but I always thought Calvinism says, like, you know, you're totally depraved, and so you can't have faith until you're first regenerated.

01:18:35

You can't have faith until you're regenerated. Right, but we say that faith and regeneration are concomitant.

01:18:44

Concomitance means that they are simultaneous but related to each other, and there's one causes that brings another.

01:18:52

So we would say that they're concomitant in that sense. So if faith causes regeneration, or it's a means through which you're regenerated, then wouldn't that mean that total depravity is not true, since you can have faith before regeneration?

01:19:09

Well, it can't mean total depravity is not true, because the Bible says we're desperately wicked, deceitful, full of evil, full of hatred, don't seek for God, don't understand spiritual things by nature, children of wrath, dead in their trespasses and sins, a slave to sin, etc.

01:19:22

So total depravity is biblical. It's just biblical, and Jesus says you can't come to him unless it's been granted to you from the

01:19:28

Father, John 6 .65, and I can go through other verses about stuff like that, but so total depravity, it's a biblical doctrine.

01:19:37

People, in my opinion, I was gonna say, in my opinion, those who reject total depravity are just rejecting

01:19:46

Scripture. Yeah, and everyone says that, right? Like, if you accept total depravity, then you're rejecting

01:19:53

Scripture. That's what the Scriptures teach, right? It teaches we're dead in our trespasses and sins, full of evil.

01:20:00

Yeah, let's go through that. So, slave of sin. Romans 6 says we're slaves of righteousness.

01:20:07

Does that mean we have no ability to sin? Oh, of course we have the ability.

01:20:14

That's a very good point. We have the ability to sin as Christians, because we still have that fallen nature within us, and so within the

01:20:22

Christian, there's the ability to honor God. Hey, we got seven people in here?

01:20:28

I didn't think we could get seven people in here. I thought the limit was six. I'm trying to add

01:20:35

Eric, and I guess he can't. I can see him, but I can't add him.

01:20:43

I'm gonna back out of the screen. Maybe you can add him. Okay, let's see if that works. Okay, one, two, three, four, five.

01:20:59

Oh, there you, you're in. Okay, it works. So, I'm learning how this works. Okay, all right, PK. So, because we're regenerate, we still have the ability to sin, but nothing in Scripture says that the unregenerate have the ability to pick

01:21:15

Christ of their own free will. Yeah, I would go to John 1 and 12 for that.

01:21:21

As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to be called the children of God, who are born not of the blood of man, nor the will of man, but the will of God.

01:21:29

So, the born -again issue is not by their own will, but by the will of God. Now, that's talking about your own physical birth.

01:21:38

It's not by your parents' will of a man. Like Andros said, it's talking about your parents.

01:21:44

Your first birth is, it's physical, it's natural, it's flesh and blood, so on and so forth.

01:21:49

But the second birth is of God. It's spiritual. It's not by a man's sexual desire for natural birth.

01:21:58

But I was gonna say this, the slave of sin, if that means you can't do righteousness like you're totally brave, then wouldn't slave of righteousness mean that you're completely holy, that you can't sin?

01:22:12

Well, that would depend on some theology. If we have died with Christ, Romans 6, 8, or crucified with Him, 6, 6, and Romans 7, 4 says that those who have died are no longer under sin, and Romans 5, 13 says that if there is no sin,

01:22:28

I mean, if there's no law, sin is not imputed, we could make the case theologically that we don't sin even as Christians, in the eyes of God.

01:22:37

Well, I don't believe that, because I believe you can lose your salvation. You believe you can lose your salvation? Of course.

01:22:44

What do you have to do to keep it? You have to keep His commandments.

01:22:53

Which commandments? Especially on twofold morals. Okay, yeah, I know what that verse is, yeah. What commandments do you have to keep?

01:22:59

Give me one or two. Give me, you know, one or two that you have to keep. Thou shalt not lie. Okay, so you have to be honest, let's say, okay?

01:23:09

So you have to be honest. What else you have to do to keep yourself right with God? Well, I think you already know the answer, though, right?

01:23:17

No, I'm serious. There are hundreds of commandments. Okay, so give me two more, then. Let's work with the top three.

01:23:23

Two more, okay. Don't murder. Be honest. What? Don't murder. Okay, don't, so don't kill, but that's not, you're not doing anything.

01:23:33

What do you, what do you have to do to keep your salvation? I didn't say, what do you have to not do to keep it? What do you do to keep it?

01:23:40

So, being honest is an action of integrity. So, what else you have to do to keep your salvation?

01:23:49

Well, it says keep His commandments, and one of the commandments is don't lie. So, I don't know about this negative, positive.

01:23:57

Don't lie. So, then don't. So, then, we could say, then, don't murder is equivalent to loving your neighbor, right?

01:24:04

Sure. Okay, you got another one you got to do? Yeah. Okay. And love the Lord your God, and you know, don't love it.

01:24:12

Okay. So, are you doing all of those? Yeah.

01:24:19

Are you doing them perfectly? What do you mean by perfectly?

01:24:25

I mean, if you're doing it, you're doing it perfectly. There's no way you can say, I didn't commit adultery, and then also say,

01:24:30

I didn't do it perfectly, so I still slept with it. I mean. Okay. So, are you loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength?

01:24:38

Yeah, and there's actually a verse that says, 2 Kings 23 -25, King Josiah did that as well.

01:24:46

So, if you're going to say it's impossible, then how would you answer that? What verse was that?

01:24:52

2 Kings 23 -25. Okay. So, let's look at it. Okay. So, does that mean that he never sinned from that point on?

01:25:09

No, it doesn't say that. I'm just asking. So, then how long was he doing that, do you think?

01:25:18

I think since his inception as the king. Okay. So, from his king to the rest of his life, you would say he never sinned?

01:25:27

Well, I mean, I'm making speculation. I'm just trying to point out that it's not impossible to love God with all your heart, which is what

01:25:34

I think you're trying to say. Well, the standard of the law is to keep it perfectly.

01:25:40

And I'm asking you, if you are doing that, if you're loving God with all your heart, because you talk about him, about the king, that's great.

01:25:48

I'm asking about you. Are you keeping all of your, loving the Lord your God with all your heart, all your strength, all your soul, your mind, completely?

01:25:56

Yeah. There's no room for improvement. There's no room for improvement with you, with your relationship with God.

01:26:04

Well, I believe that you can grow in knowledge and grace, like it said in 2 Peter 3 somewhere.

01:26:10

Yes, we can. Yeah, we can certainly do that. But I'm asking you specifically about this issue, because you're keeping yourself right with the infinitely holy

01:26:20

God by what you do. That's what it says in 1 John 2 .4. Let's go there.

01:26:26

Let's go there. Yeah. If we say we know him, we do not keep his commandments. The truth is not in you and you're a liar.

01:26:32

It doesn't say that you keep yourself right with God by keeping the commandments. It says if you say you're a believer, let's see the actions of it.

01:26:39

And that's reflected by James 2. So the thing I'm trying to point out is that what you're doing is you're keeping yourself right with the infinitely holy

01:26:47

God by you keeping the law. Right.

01:26:53

So if you covet just in the next 10 minutes, are you keeping his commandments?

01:27:01

No. So that means the truth is not in you and you're a liar, right? Well, what does it mean to keep his commandments?

01:27:09

Every single second, all the time? Yeah. That's what it means? Okay. So you're saying you do that.

01:27:16

Jesus kept his commandments. Okay. So Paul, the apostle in Romans 7, 18 -25, the things

01:27:25

I want to do, I don't. The things I don't want to do, I do. Wretched man, who will delude me for this body of death. So was he admitting his failures?

01:27:34

So you had a debate with Jesse Murrell. Yeah. Jesse Murrell is a heretic.

01:27:40

So was Paul, he's a heretic. Come on, man. Come on, man. He's a heretic. Don't say that. Yes, he is.

01:27:46

He's a heretic. I'll keep saying it. Was Paul speaking of himself then?

01:27:55

Wretched man that I am, what he's talking about himself? Yeah. The reason

01:28:00

I brought up Jesse Murrell is because I have the same answer as him. Paul is definitely speaking about himself, but it's his life as a

01:28:05

Jew. Because in Romans 7 -5, the context says, when we were in the flesh, the passions of our sinful desires were aroused, and so on and so forth.

01:28:17

Okay. But in Romans 8... Well, hold on. Hold on. Let's look at it. Hold on. Hold on. Yeah. Go ahead. While we were in the sinful passions, which were aroused by the law.

01:28:27

And then verse 6, let's just read the 6. Let's see what happens. Is there a transition anyplace? But now we have been released from the law.

01:28:34

Now he says we've been released from it. Well, without the law, there is no sin. He's been released from it.

01:28:40

Having died to that by which we were bound, right? What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Might never be in the contrary, et cetera.

01:28:46

I would not have come to know sin except through the law. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment produced in me, coveting of every kind.

01:28:55

For apart from the law, sin is dead. I once was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died.

01:29:02

What does he mean he died there? Died spiritually? Why does he say he was alive before the law if he was born dead in his sin?

01:29:11

Well, there's some debate on what that means about the idea of the concept. He didn't know any better. And then when the law came, then he realized he was a sinner and the law killed him because 1

01:29:20

Corinthians 15, 56 says the power of the law is, or the power of death is the law.

01:29:26

Yeah. Right. So he goes on and the commandment, which was to result in life proved to result in death in me.

01:29:33

For sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment deceived me. So then the law is holy and the commandment is holy and righteous.

01:29:38

Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May never be. Rather, it was sin in order that it might be shown to be sin affecting my death through that which is good.

01:29:50

So that through the commandments, sin would become utterly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

01:30:02

Now look what he says here. We know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, present tense, sold into bondage to sin.

01:30:09

That's what he's saying right there. Is it his past life he was talking about? Can I ask a question?

01:30:15

You just did. Are you sold under sin? Uh, yes. In one sense, yes.

01:30:21

In another sense, no. Yeah, exactly. I thought you would say that. I thought you'd say in one sense, yes. One sense, no.

01:30:27

Because what does it say in Romans 6 that we're free from sin? So the man in Romans 7 is not free from sin.

01:30:35

He's not a Christian. Really? But I am of flesh. So Paul the apostle is not a

01:30:40

Christian? Yeah, it's historical present tense.

01:30:46

He's talking about past events in the present tense. Like in Romans 4, 6, it says David speaks. Hold on.

01:30:51

We stick with the context. We stick with the context. If you jump around. No, it's literally. Yeah, it's a literally device.

01:31:00

Like it's historical present tense. So like in Romans 4, 6, it's the same thing. It says David speaks present tense, but David's dead.

01:31:07

He doesn't speak. Yeah, well, that's obvious. So he's like talking about past events. That's obvious. That's what it is there. But he says, for what

01:31:13

I am doing, I do not understand. And for I am practicing what I would like to do, but I'm not doing the very thing

01:31:20

I hate, or I am doing the very thing I hate. For if I do, it's all present tense. The thing

01:31:25

I don't want to do, I agree with the law. Yeah, I'm a sinner. What? So how do you reconcile that with Romans 6 saying we're free from sin, we're dead to sin,

01:31:35

Romans 8 saying if you walk in the flesh, you're condemned, so on and so forth? Because we're dead to sin, it has to do with identification and federal headship, which requires limited and necessitates limited atonement, which you would deny.

01:31:46

And furthermore, to say that... We'll get into that, we'll get into that. Oh, yeah, we can, because this is all, it all works together.

01:31:52

If you don't understand it, you know, but for what I'm doing, he says, I do not understand the law, confessing with the law that the law is good.

01:32:01

So now I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. So you're saying it's not talking about himself in the present tense, but it's something past.

01:32:10

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is in my flesh, for the willing is present, but the good is not.

01:32:17

So he's saying that nothing good dwells in his fleshly sense. He's separating himself from the presence of God in that sense by saying, well, the

01:32:26

Christ is indwelling him, of course, nothing good dwells in his flesh. For the good that I want to do,

01:32:31

I don't, but I practice the very evil that I don't want to do. But if I'm the one doing it,

01:32:37

I find the principle that evil is present with me. All this is past tense, even though Paul is sitting there.

01:32:42

And then he says, we can go down, we just go down to the thing. He says, wretched man that I am, who will set me free from the body of this death?

01:32:51

He's not talking about himself in the present tense, right? All of this is present tense. Oh, yes.

01:32:56

Okay. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. The argument is that he's using present tense, but he's talking about past events.

01:33:06

So when he says in 1 Timothy 1, 13 through 15, that I'm the chief of sinners.

01:33:12

He also says, because I persecuted the church, because I was a blasphemer. So it's talking about his past life in present tense.

01:33:21

Yes. Are you familiar with what's called the now and the not yet? Are you familiar with the now and the not yet?

01:33:27

Yeah, I've heard you use that term before. Are you familiar with what it means? I like your stuff, man. You do good stuff. Thank you.

01:33:34

Here's an example of the now and the not yet. This is John 17, 11. Jesus says, I am no longer in the world.

01:33:41

And yet they themselves are in the world. What does that mean? Well, of course, he's sitting right there. He's in the world.

01:33:46

But he says, I no longer am in the world. There's a now and a not yet. There's a sense in scripture, which the

01:33:52

Bible uses and God talks about, where we're justified, or we're said to be glorified, but we're not yet glorified.

01:34:00

Romans 8, 29, for example. Those will be justified, also glorified.

01:34:06

Glorification is a future thing, but it's spoken of in the past tense. So it's just a concept called the now and the not yet.

01:34:12

It's in scripture. And so we can see this kind of a thing in varying areas.

01:34:19

So in one sense, he can say, I'm a sinner, but I'm also not a sinner. Because there's different senses in which that can be the case.

01:34:28

And so, now and the not yet. Can I ask you this, just before we get to our brother, Eric, because he tuned in to get to say anything though.

01:34:36

But Romans 8, 13, if you walk according to the flesh, you'll die. But if through the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

01:34:44

That's verse. For as many as are led by the spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8, 13, 14. Great.

01:34:50

You got a major problem. You got a major problem. Was Paul walking in the flesh in Romans 7?

01:34:58

What he was describing was a very thing that he was having struggle with. We can walk in the flesh in different senses and different ways of things.

01:35:05

I can walk in the flesh for five seconds by lusting after a woman across the street, but it doesn't mean I'm walking in the flesh in a constant sense.

01:35:12

That I lose my salvation for five seconds? When I was in the car. Of course. Oh, it does?

01:35:18

Oh, okay. So, you can be in and out of salvation, all kinds of stuff, right? Well, we can get into that.

01:35:25

But just answer the question, was he walking in the flesh in Romans 7? What do you mean by walking? As a permanent abiding in?

01:35:32

Or he's admitting that he still has sinful tendencies? Well, a tendency is common, right?

01:35:39

It's practicing. It's every day. Well, I like to go to the verses.

01:35:47

So, what exact verse is that? It's Romans 8, 13 through 14. Okay. He says, if you are living according to the flesh, you must die.

01:36:01

But if by the spirit, you're putting to death the deeds of the body, you're going to live. For all who are being led by the spirit are sons of God.

01:36:11

What's the big deal? What's the problem? The problem is, he wasn't being led by the spirit of God when he was sinning.

01:36:19

So, he was not saved. He was not a son of God. Okay. So, yes. So, then let's take this and apply this.

01:36:26

So, if you were to lust after a woman for five seconds, and then you repented five seconds later, so you lost your salvation for five seconds?

01:36:37

You have to define what you mean by salvation in that context. Being in a state of salvation, so that if you were to die at that moment, you go to be with the

01:36:47

Lord. And not salvation means you could go to hell. You're in or you're out.

01:36:53

You're damned or you're not damned. You're saved or you're not saved, which is damnation. So, would you lose your salvation for five seconds?

01:37:02

Yeah, because let's go to Matthew 5, 29. What does it say about lusting? It says, if your hand causes you to sin, your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you, for it is better to enter life with one eye than to end up in hell with both eyes.

01:37:19

So, he's literally saying the opposite of what you're trying to say. Well, what he's not doing here is talking theological exact precise principles.

01:37:30

He's talking in the Beatitudes, which are wisdom statements. And you got to be careful not to mix doctrinal statements with wisdom statements.

01:37:38

But the issue I'm concerned about is that you can be in and out of salvation so many times. I've got 15 % charge.

01:37:47

I'm going to get a charge up. Let Eric say something because he's a great man of God. I love him. Go ahead,

01:37:54

Eric. You want to say something? Go get your charger. Yep. Okay, there you go.

01:38:03

Go ahead, Eric. You want to say anything?

01:38:15

Are you there, Eric? I can't hear you. Did he say, have me say something?

01:38:22

Yes, I'm here. I can't hear you. Can you hear me? Oh, it takes a while. I see. Yes, I can hear you.

01:38:28

It takes a while for the feed to come through. Can you hear me? Put up your hand like this. Go like this so I can make sure it's you.

01:38:34

Can you hear me now? I guess so. It's quite a lag. Can you hear me now? I guess so.

01:38:40

It's quite a lag. There you go. Okay. It's taken like 10 seconds or so. Okay, it's you. So what's your question then?

01:38:49

Yeah, I hear you. Well, it was actually for,

01:38:55

I believe his name was PK. I was confused about the in and out of salvation in regards to keeping the commandments.

01:39:06

My question really would be for him, how are we saved then? That's what we're getting to.

01:39:14

What do we do to be saved if we're not saved by faith then? We're saved by faith and keeping the commandments.

01:39:20

And you were kind of a question. Right, and that's what

01:39:25

I was showing to him. How though? I mean, what commandments? You familiar with the debate

01:39:32

I had with Jesse Murrell? Here's, go ahead. Okay, because I was in Montana a couple of years ago.

01:39:39

He had this debate. And I remember very clearly. He's an open theist. Oh, he's a heretic.

01:39:45

Yeah. And I remember very clearly I was sitting there and the room was full of like -minded people on his side.

01:39:54

And I remember when I was talking to them and they were saying things like, well, you know, you got to keep the word, you got to keep these laws, you got to do these things to keep yourself right with God.

01:40:04

You don't want to sin, lose your salvation. And it dawned on me, they didn't know the gospel.

01:40:10

And I remember that moment and it stopped me that here's a bunch of people I thought knew the

01:40:16

Lord, but didn't know what the true gospel was. And so I just start preaching the gospel to them to get saved because they're preaching a false gospel.

01:40:26

Because what they were preaching was that you're saved by faith plus keeping the commandments. And that's what this guy's doing is

01:40:34

PK is maintaining that he remains right with God by his ability to have faith and his ability to stay right with God.

01:40:46

He keeps himself right with the infinitely holy God. And he can go in and out of salvation. Now, there's a problem.

01:40:52

There's a major problem with that and some other areas, but you know what? I need to use the restroom. Says he's away for a minute.

01:40:59

Let me just use the restroom. I'll be back in like one minute. I've been here for an hour and a half or hour and 40 minutes.

01:41:05

Okay. And you guys can blab. I'll be right back. Sure. Yeah. Want me to talk while you're using the bathroom?

01:41:14

Okay. Yeah. And it's very concerning to me that,

01:41:22

I mean, if you look at chapter one, verses one through four, if you look at Galatians 2 .16,

01:41:36

Ephesians, Romans 5 .1 is another one. John 3 .3

01:41:43

is another one. I mean, salvation is through our faith in Jesus Christ.

01:41:51

And I am just almost baffled that many people be saved through works that they do.

01:42:03

And I don't, you know, when we're born again, of course, we're going to do good works, not to do good works because we are saved.

01:42:15

And I always find it interesting when people go to James chapter two, when it says faith without works is dead.

01:42:26

Absolutely. Of course, that's a great verse. In that chapter, it says

01:42:33

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness in that chapter alone.

01:42:43

It says that. And I think they grossly misinterpret the scripture in James.

01:42:52

I think it's James 2 .24, 2 .25. In fact, let me read it real quick.

01:43:00

I don't want to misquote it at all in the book of James.

01:43:08

That justification that James is talking about is a justification for man.

01:43:15

If that justification that James was talking about God, then there would be a contradiction in the scriptures.

01:43:25

James's language is a dead giveaway when he says, you show me and I'll show you. Yeah, I said

01:43:31

James's language is a dead giveaway when he says, you show me, you show me and I'll show you.

01:43:38

This is a horizontal comparison, men to men, but God doesn't need that.

01:43:44

God sees the heart. That's why he says Abraham was justified by faith. He hadn't done any works yet.

01:43:52

He hadn't been circumcised. He hadn't taken Isaac up to the mountain yet.

01:43:59

I mean, that was years later. So yeah, the you show me and I'll show you gives away

01:44:05

James's position. It's a man -centered view that we depend on amongst each other for a demonstration of our faith.

01:44:15

Hey, can you guys hear me? All right.

01:44:20

Are you back, PK? Absolutely. So you keep your salvation by your goodness, don't you,

01:44:35

PK? Is that just to me? Yeah. Yeah. You keep your salvation by how good you are.

01:44:43

I know you love that. Take a long time there.

01:44:51

PK, you keep your salvation by how good you are before God. What does

01:44:57

John 5, 29 say? Is it true or not true that you keep your salvation with God by how good you are?

01:45:09

Yeah, I'm trying to answer with scripture. Okay. And you will come forth, those who did good deeds for resurrection of life, those who committed evil deeds for resurrection of judgment.

01:45:18

Okay, great. Now let me ask you, are you keeping your salvation by how good you are? It says the same thing in Matthew 25.

01:45:27

So the answer, you're saying that it says yes. So you're saying you keep your salvation by how good you are.

01:45:37

I believe every Christian does. Okay. So the answer is yes. You believe you keep your salvation by your goodness, your effort.

01:45:48

Don't you? Right? Calvinists believe the same thing.

01:45:58

No, we don't. So you believe, you've just admitted it by saying Calvinists believe the same thing, which is incorrect.

01:46:04

So you believe you keep yourself right with the infinitely holy God by how good you are.

01:46:09

You guys believe the same thing though. No, we don't. No, we don't. No, we don't. Look, look, we're not, don't try and jump around.

01:46:16

That's not what we teach. It's the opposite of what we teach. The opposite. Now, hold on.

01:46:23

I'm trying to focus on you because you see, you recognize how bad it sounds, which is why you're trying to get out from this pressure.

01:46:31

You're the one, I've been making the case, letting you hang yourself with your rope. You're the one keeping the law perfectly.

01:46:37

You're the one who is able to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. You're the one who's in and out of salvation, depending on your action.

01:46:44

You're the one who keeps yourself right with God by your compliance with the law of God. Now we call that, there's a word for that, called arrogance.

01:46:56

It's called biblical theology. It's called arrogance. It's called pride. Now, pride is a great sin.

01:47:02

No, it's not. Yes, it is. Because the Bible says, by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

01:47:10

But you're saying that you keep the law. Now, remember, you love the

01:47:16

Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength. You were quoting the issues out of the 10 commandments. That's Old Testament law. So you're saying that you keep the law and that's how you are saved.

01:47:26

You keep yourself saved by keeping the law. Now, according to that,

01:47:33

James, hold on. Instead of jumping all over the place, whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point become guilty of all.

01:47:41

Have you ever stumbled in one point of the law? You see, it says you become guilty. You're not still saved.

01:47:48

You're not innocent. You're not righteous. You're guilty. That's right. What does it mean to be guilty? Have you ever stumbled in one point of the law?

01:47:56

Yeah, of course. I wouldn't be saved if I hadn't sinned. Romans or Galatians 3 .10, for as many as are the works of the law are under a curse for it is written.

01:48:06

That's talking about circumcision. Curse is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them.

01:48:13

That's not just circumcision. That says all things. Now, you're under obligation to keep all things written in the book of the law.

01:48:21

This is what you're obligated. You don't know the true gospel, PK. You don't know what the true gospel is.

01:48:28

You don't know. That's not the correct application, because what does Romans 2 .13 say?

01:48:34

Okay, look, I'm trying to focus with you. You jump all over the place, and I've gone to your verses.

01:48:40

We look at your verses, and I'm trying to work with you. You don't realize that you're under the law and that you are boastful and that you're saying that you can keep the law, and that's how you maintain yourself with the infinitely holy

01:48:52

God. You're under a curse. No, but you're not realizing that you're not dealing with the verses, because—

01:49:00

Well, you can't say that. I've gone to your verses. I've gone to your verses. You keep doing one after another after another, and I try and get you to focus on something.

01:49:08

I try and read, and you want to jump all over the place and say, you're not focusing on the verses. Well, wait a minute. Focus on—I'm reading stuff to you, and when

01:49:16

I bring a verse, you go to something else and say, Matt, you're not addressing the verses. Look, I'm trying to show you.

01:49:22

You don't know the gospel. You don't have the gospel. You are a false convert, just like Jesse is, because you believe that you can keep yourself right from the infinitely holy

01:49:33

God by your own effort. You are under the law. Wait a minute. This is the part

01:49:38

I'm saying. You are under the law, and you are cursed, because you're the one who said that you have to keep the law to be saved.

01:49:46

You're the one who said, love your neighbor, love God, be honest, don't murder. You said these things.

01:49:53

That's Old Testament law. You're still under the law. And why are you still under the law? Because those who have died are no longer under the law.

01:50:04

Those who've died with Christ are freed from the law. You're still under the law. You've not died with Christ.

01:50:10

You still have to keep the law to be saved. The one who has died with Christ is no longer obligated to keep the law,

01:50:18

Romans 7, 1 through 4. You don't know the true gospel. If you were to die right now,

01:50:26

PK, I believe, or I suspect, that you would be damned to eternal damnation, because what you're doing is you're saying that you keep yourself right by your effort to keep the law before God.

01:50:43

How utterly arrogant that is. Let me show you something from Jesus' own words.

01:50:48

You like what Jesus says? Let's go to what Jesus says, okay? Two men went up to the temple to pray,

01:50:58

PK and Matt Slick. And Mr.

01:51:04

PK stood with saying, God, I thank you that I'm not like other people.

01:51:11

I am honest. I love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

01:51:16

I love my neighbors myself. I don't murder. I thank you. I'm not like the other people who are in and out of salvation, who don't keep the commandments, etc.

01:51:27

I'm not like Matt Slick. I fast twice. I pay tithes, etc.

01:51:33

But I don't want to say Matt Slick. This is my position. Matt Slick, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, beating his breast, saying,

01:51:43

God, be merciful to me, the sinner. Now, Jesus said, I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other, for whoever exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

01:51:56

You exalt yourself. How great you are, PK. How great you are that you keep the commandments of God.

01:52:04

You keep the commandments of God to keep yourself right with God. How wonderful you are, Mr. Pharisee.

01:52:11

Mr. Pharisee, I thank you that I'm not like other people, swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax gatherer.

01:52:18

I fast twice a week. I pay tithes of all that I get. He's boasting what he doesn't do. He's boasting in what he does do.

01:52:24

That's why he gets to be with God. He's condemned to damnation. That's you.

01:52:30

Yes, you do. You said you keep the law.

01:52:36

You said, you have to be honest. You said you're keeping the law and you're doing it perfectly.

01:52:42

Then you went to Kings to show me that this guy was doing this. You said, you, I said, you're keeping it, right? You said, yeah, look,

01:52:50

I keep the law. I don't swindle. I'm not unjust. I don't commit adultery. That's the law.

01:52:56

You say you're keeping it. You say you're living God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. That means to obey his law.

01:53:02

You're a Pharisee, a false convert with a false gospel.

01:53:09

If you were to die tonight, if, and it may not happen, but if you were to die tonight and PK, and you're facing

01:53:15

God and he says, why should I let you into heaven? What would you tell No, I would say

01:53:22

Romans five, one were justified by faith, but I would just like to wait a second, wait a second, wait a second.

01:53:30

So Romans were justified by faith. So then you're not justified by what you do.

01:53:36

You don't have to keep the works to, to keep yourself justified with God. Well, I'm just trying to explain it, but I wanted to listen to what you were saying about the

01:53:44

Luke 18 thing. So look, I suspect that you're not regenerate and this is why you can't see this.

01:53:57

You're a Pharisee. So yeah. So with the

01:54:03

Pharisee story, when he says, you know, actually in the context, it says that Jesus spoke this parable about the people who despise, they hated other people.

01:54:21

So it's not about righteous people. It's about people who despise other content.

01:54:28

So I don't mean to say they don't commit adultery. And he told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves, that they were righteous.

01:54:38

Yeah. And despised others. What's the, and viewed others with contempt. And what's the evidence of how they viewed themselves as righteous by keeping the law.

01:54:53

You're cutting out. I can't, I can't hear it. You're cutting out. Yeah. You're breaking up a little too. He told the people, the two groups of people, those who were righteous and viewed others with contempt.

01:55:06

You're in the self -righteous group. Two men went up to the prey, the

01:55:11

Pharisee, the task -getter. Oh, absolutely. You keep yourself right before the infinitely

01:55:17

Holy God by how well you keep his commandments. You need to pat yourself on the back.

01:55:24

It will send you a phylactery. You can put it on your forehead. Let's reverse it.

01:55:30

Do you think that adulterers are saved? Are adulterers saved?

01:55:37

If I look at a woman and lost. He mentions that I don't commit adultery. Okay. He mentions that I don't commit adultery.

01:55:43

Yeah. So what you're saying then is that an adulterer, what you're saying and the implication in your statement is if you do this one thing, that means you're not saved.

01:55:52

If you do something else right, it means you are saved. Do you still have the mindset that if you do one thing wrong, that means you're not saved?

01:55:58

Because someone who does something wrong can't be saved. So that meant, I'm asking you, if someone commits adultery, are they saved?

01:56:04

Well, yeah. Someone could be saved if he's an adulterer and someone could not be saved if he's an adulterer. Someone could be saved and be a liar and not be saved and be a liar because people still lust in their hearts.

01:56:16

I've done it. I've seen a woman. Wow. Look at that. Okay. Oops. Sorry. Was I unsafe for five seconds in and out of salvation?

01:56:25

So when you say an adulterer, you mean can we just abide in adultery with no repentance?

01:56:31

No, they're not even saved. You don't even know how to ask the question right. What I'm trying to do is press you into understanding your arrogance, your pride, your deadness of heart to think that you by your own works and your own keeping the law can be right with God.

01:56:49

You're a Mormon. You're a Jehovah's Witness. You're a Roman Catholic. All rolled up into this nice little self -righteous package.

01:56:57

You have to understand something. You're under a curse because you say you keep yourself right.

01:57:04

Your salvation depends on you keeping the law. Your salvation depends on you keeping the law.

01:57:12

It doesn't depend on your faith in Christ. It depends on your ability to write. What?

01:57:19

I say that your faith will produce good works and that you will obey the law because you have faith.

01:57:26

And that doesn't justify you by obeying the law. You're saying that you keep yourself right with God by keeping the law.

01:57:33

That's a difference than the manifestation of true faith, which is what James 2, 14 through 26 is talking about.

01:57:38

You're saying you keep the law and keep yourself right with God by keeping the law.

01:57:44

You're a false convert. You don't know the true gospel. How would you reply to because,

01:58:01

I mean, you even said it, you said an adulterer is not saved and someone not saved. Someone abiding in it who has no conviction.

01:58:10

That's what he's talking about. The adulterers. You're agreeing with me. They're not saved.

01:58:15

But they're not saved by stopping their adultery. They're saved by their trust and faith in Christ.

01:58:22

The regeneration occurs and then they trust in Christ and then they're saved and then they war against that sin.

01:58:28

They stop it. That's what repentance is. But they're not saved by their repentance.

01:58:38

So why isn't the adulterer saved? Is it because of his sin? Did you not hear what

01:58:43

I had to say? He's talking about those who abide in adultery.

01:58:50

Yeah. So yeah, the person abiding in adultery. Why is he not saved? Because Christians don't abide in those sins.

01:58:59

Right. So you're agreeing with me that there is an element of you have to keep the law.

01:59:06

No. No. No. You're not hearing me. No. Listen to me,

01:59:11

Peter. I'll say it again. Focus. You're saying you keep your salvation, your position with God by your good works.

01:59:26

That's what you're saying. Yes, it is. That's the implication you're trying to draw, but that's not what

01:59:32

I'm saying. That is what you're saying and you need to see it. Can I explain it? You already have.

01:59:38

Try and explain it. I'll take notes. Yeah. So I agree with the, well,

01:59:47

I don't agree with perseverance of the saints, but I agree with the element that says a true believer will produce these good works and the fruit of salvation and so on and so forth.

01:59:57

And I can even get statements from Paul Washer and other people that say that even you, you just said it.

02:00:07

You broke up. You agree with Paul Washer. You broke up.

02:00:15

So you're agreeing. So I can get statements from Paul. You broke up.

02:00:23

Sorry. Can you hear me now? Yeah. You said about Paul Washer and then you went loopy.

02:00:30

Yeah. I can get statements from Washer and other people who say like Sproul or other people who would agree that someone practicing adultery is not saved.

02:00:47

Yeah. We just said that. No problem. But that's not what the issue is. We're not practicing adultery. You don't understand.

02:00:54

Practicing or not practicing is a result of regeneration. Let's get to the issue. Romans 2 .7.

02:01:01

Okay. You're breaking up. Right. Yeah.

02:01:09

So yeah, I agree with that. If you have a new heart and a new mindset, you won't be doing those things.

02:01:16

But the point is you're not saved if you are doing those things. And the scripture is clear about that.

02:01:23

That's why you even agree that a person practices that. Okay. So Romans 2 .13

02:01:29

says those who keep the law will be justified.

02:01:37

That's talking about the moral law of God says Gentiles do it naturally. Romans 2 .14

02:01:43

and Romans 2 .13 says those who do these things will be justified.

02:01:48

So keeping the commandments, 1

02:01:57

John 2 .4, is, I don't know that word you use, but like simultaneous or something, or the word you use to describe faith and regeneration, the conjument thing, whatever.

02:02:10

You misunderstood what Paul was saying in Romans 2. In Romans 1, he was talking about the condemnation of all the

02:02:19

Gentiles. And then the Jew in verse one, you have no excuse.

02:02:24

Everyone who passes judgment for a night, you judge another, you condemn yourself. Verse 17, but if you bear the name

02:02:31

Jew, Paul is talking about the necessity of following the law.

02:02:37

You can be saved by following the law. Sure you can. But the standard is perfection.

02:02:44

Deuteronomy 27 .26 talks about that. And Paul references it in Galatians 3 .10. You've got to keep all of it.

02:02:50

And what he's saying is these Gentiles, yeah, they can keep the law better than you do. By your own standard,

02:02:57

Mr. Jew, you think you can keep yourself right with God by what you do. The Jewers of the law are justified.

02:03:04

Are you doing the law? Are you really doing the law? Because of course you do the law and you keep it perfectly.

02:03:10

You're right before God. But that's the standard is perfection. God says be holy for I'm holy.

02:03:16

First Peter 1 .16. Paul is condemning both the Jews and the Gentiles.

02:03:23

And the Gentiles in chapter one and the Jews in chapter two, by using the issue of the Gentiles, who do the things of the law that the

02:03:32

Jews don't even do. And if they think that they're going to be justified by what they do, then how much more are the

02:03:38

Gentiles going to be justified, which the Jews condemn. He's calling them to task on their own theology.

02:03:45

But then he goes on later and says, he says in Romans 3 .28, we maintain that man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

02:03:56

Apart from the works of the law. That means apart from loving God and loving your neighbor, because that's the works of the law.

02:04:04

Which Jesus said in Matthew 22 .37 -39, when he quoted Deuteronomy 6 .5 and Leviticus 19 .18,

02:04:10

respectively, love God and love your neighbor. And Paul says we're justified apart from the works of the law, loving

02:04:16

God and loving your neighbor. You say we're justified before God by keeping the law. You're a false convert.

02:04:22

You're preaching a false gospel. Romans 2 .13, you just read it. It says the doers of the law will be justified.

02:04:29

Are you doing the law? I believe every Christian is. Yeah. Okay. Are you doing it perfectly?

02:04:34

That's a standard. Are you doing the law? Doing it and doing it perfectly are the same thing to me.

02:04:40

Like I explained. No, no, no. Nope. If you commit adultery, if you refrain from committing adultery, if you say, oh,

02:04:51

I, You give yourself an excuse so many times.

02:05:04

And I'm hearing a buzz too. Right. But then. I'm going to mute praise.

02:05:12

I think it might be him buzzing. Yeah, it was.

02:05:18

So praise I am, whatever. I muted you because it was a buzz coming through. PK. I think you're frozen.

02:05:30

It's like he's frozen. Yeah. I explained to you the context of Romans chapter two, what

02:05:39

Paul was doing there. Yeah, I agree with it. He's condemning both

02:05:45

Jew and Gentile, those who keep the law and those who don't keep the law. Paul says, the same author says, for as many as are the works of the law are under a curse.

02:05:57

It is written, curse is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them.

02:06:03

All things. You're obligated to do that. You're the one trying to keep yourself right by law.

02:06:09

You don't know the true gospel. You have a false gospel. But that's not what

02:06:14

I'm saying at all. Yes, it is. That's the implication you're drawing. Do you believe you're saved by grace through faith after all you can do?

02:06:26

Second Nephi 25, 23. Very good. Do you believe that? No, sir. I actually use that.

02:06:33

Yes, you do. No, I don't believe that. And Moroni 10, 13? 32. Moroni 10, 18 or 13 that says the same thing?

02:06:41

No, 10, 32. So what you're saying is with the grace of God and all that you do, you keep all the law, you keep the commandments.

02:06:53

This is what justifies you. No, like I said, we're justified by faith.

02:07:04

By faith. Romans 5, 1. But those who keep the law,

02:07:10

Romans 2, 13. So it's both. Oh, so you can't have both because Paul says, we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

02:07:22

And in Romans 4, 5, he says, but the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, does not work, does not do anything.

02:07:34

No law. That's what justifies him. You deny that. But James quotes the same passage and says, you see that his faith was active with his works.

02:07:45

PK, you don't listen to what I say. His faith was active with his work. James 2, 14 through 26.

02:07:53

If a man says he has faith, can that faith save him? What should we say then? If you say to someone, go be clothed and you don't provide what's necessary, can that, you know, you're doing what's necessary for your body.

02:08:02

No, you show me your faith by your works. I'll show you my faith by your, by my works. That's James 2, 18.

02:08:09

You believe in God, the devil believes also. And he trembles. James 2, 19. What James is talking about is justification before people, not before God.

02:08:18

And Romans 4, 1, it says, what should we say that our father Abraham, according to the flesh is found for if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

02:08:27

For what's the scripture say? And Abraham believed God, it was credited him as righteousness. Now to the one who works, his credit does not do what, his wages does not do what is a favor, but what is due.

02:08:39

To the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies him godly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

02:08:46

Paul, the apostle is clearly teaching that justification before God is by faith alone in Christ alone. James is saying justification before people is by what you do.

02:08:55

Now you misunderstood James 2. You misunderstood Romans 4. You're preaching a false gospel.

02:09:02

You're not leaving, you're not living the true gospel. Your gospel is you're saved by grace through faith after all you can do.

02:09:09

You have to do all you can do, keeping the law. You have to constantly keep that law to be saved.

02:09:15

Your salvation depends on your goodness. How? That's not what I'm trying to say.

02:09:21

Is your salvation, let's get it, is your salvation dependent upon you maintaining your position with God by your effort?

02:09:30

No, I'm not saying that you have to stop committing adultery, do all these good things, and then

02:09:38

God will forgive you, and that somehow you earn forgiveness.

02:09:43

That's not what I'm trying to say. That's what you're trying to paint it as. No, I didn't say earn. I said you keep your salvation by your goodness.

02:09:52

You maintain your position before the infinitely holy God by your continued observance of the law.

02:10:01

That's a false teaching. Well, you keep saying of the law, but I think you believe in different aspects like ceremonial, moral.

02:10:11

I'm pretty sure you teach that as well. Yes. Because you know

02:10:16

Matthew 13, 41, 43, it condemns people for not keeping the law.

02:10:23

Okay. It says, you know, those who commit lawlessness, yeah, and the reason they commit lawlessness is because they're not saved.

02:10:33

Look, yeah, so look, you're saying what I'm just trying to say is, hey, okay,

02:10:38

I think you agree. I tell you what, I keep saying the same thing to you. You keep coming back with the same thing.

02:10:45

We're not going to go anywhere. So what I'm going to do is just leave you to your false gospel. I'm going to leave you to your self -righteousness.

02:10:52

I'm going to leave you to the issue of your self -righteousness before God that you maintain your position and your salvation with God, by your goodness, your compliance with the law, you maintain it.

02:11:05

You keep it by what you do. I've gone around and around and around. You keep jumping to all these verses.

02:11:12

And each time I go look at that verse, I started explaining it, you jump to something else. You don't listen to what

02:11:18

I'm saying. I agree with what you said about Romans 2, because you said like, he's condemning the

02:11:24

Jews and the Gentiles for not, they keep, they say they boast about keeping the law, but look, the

02:11:30

Gentiles do the same thing. I agree with that. I'll give that to you. That's the one thing you listen to.

02:11:37

The one thing we've been talking for over an hour. And you got to realize just like the people in Montana, oh my goodness, they don't know the gospel.

02:11:48

They don't know that they're saved. Who's Montana? Jesse Morrell debate, people in Montana. They don't know the true gospel.

02:11:55

They think that they keep their salvation by their efforts, by their goodness. How incredibly arrogant.

02:12:02

No, we're saved by grace. We're kept by God's grace. Not, we don't, can't do anything.

02:12:09

PK, everything you do is touched by sin and I'm not knocking you. I'm guilty.

02:12:14

Nothing in your heart is pure. You can't say that you're pure and perfect and that everything you do is pure and perfect because that's a standard that God requires.

02:12:24

Be holy for I am holy. You are saying that you are able to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy

02:12:30

God. And the Pharisees were saying the same thing that Jesus condemned in Luke 18.

02:12:36

You're doing the same thing. You don't know that we're saved by faith through grace without the works of the law.

02:12:42

Without it, Romans 3, 28. And I quoted Romans 4, 5, the one who does not work, but believes.

02:12:48

No works, no loving God and loving your neighbor. And you know what you did? You ignored it.

02:12:54

You just ignored it and went to something else. No, you don't. Because you say you maintain your salvation by your good works.

02:13:03

But the Bible says the one who does not work, you're a heretic.

02:13:13

You're a false teacher. You're not regenerate if this is what you're teaching and believing.

02:13:19

You don't have a true gospel. You don't haven't served and found the true and living Christ. Because you're saying that in the presence of incredible holiness, you're going to be with him.

02:13:27

Let me tell you something, PK, for whatever this is worth. But I'm going to tell you,

02:13:33

I carried the body, literally carried the body of my dead son in my arms in his coffin out to a gravesite.

02:13:41

And I hope you never have to experience that. But you could possibly imagine the depths of agony and tears of that day.

02:13:48

It's just hell. And I wouldn't want anybody to have to go through that. But I've experienced it. People can relate to that idea, at least conceptually.

02:13:56

And the reason I bring it up is because I want you to understand something. Not that experience makes doctrine. But I was 17 and I was at church.

02:14:04

I walked up front to receive Christ. The power of the Holy Spirit came up upon me with such incredible power that all

02:14:10

I could do was throw my face to the ground. The holiness of God was incredible.

02:14:18

I wept harder that day than the day I buried my son. I remember it well.

02:14:24

I'm 63. And that happened when I was 17. I'm gonna tell you,

02:14:30

I remember that holiness in that presence. And I'm gonna tell you, PK, in that presence, you will never, ever, ever say,

02:14:39

I get to go to heaven because I kept your law along with my belief in you. You will barf out the crap, that filth from your soul.

02:14:49

You will barf it out and puke it out and spit it away from you because in the presence of incredible holiness, it will matter nothing.

02:14:57

This is why I know this is the case. And the Bible confirms it. We maintain that a man is justified, made right before God without the works of the law.

02:15:08

And it's not just ceremonial. It's not just moral. I did a study specifically on the word law as it relates around that verse.

02:15:16

And Paul, in the book of Romans, never differentiates what aspect of the law he's talking about.

02:15:22

It's the law. You cannot keep that law, the moral, judicial, or priestly.

02:15:28

You can't. But PK, you're saying you can. You're an arrogant, deceived person because,

02:15:35

I'm not calling you names, I'm identifying in you the pride that is there that you say,

02:15:42

I keep the law and I keep myself right with God. What a foolish thing to say. It's God who would keep you if you were truly saved.

02:15:50

It's God who grants that you believe, Philippians 1 .29. Grants you repentance, 2nd

02:15:55

Timothy 2 .25. You cannot come to him unless it's been granted to him by the Father, John 6 .65.

02:16:04

Jesus said all that the Father comes to him, he will not cast out. He will lose none.

02:16:10

But you say he could lose some. You call Jesus a liar. You call him a liar when you say that you can be in and out of your salvation.

02:16:19

And then you've got a problem with the natural aspect of the legality of the atoning sacrifice forgiving us of all our transgressions,

02:16:28

Colossians 3 .13. Cancelling the certificate of debt on the cross, Colossians 2 .14.

02:16:34

No, you have the debt cancelled, not cancelled. Cancelled, not cancelled. All dependent upon your ability to keep the law and be good enough.

02:16:44

False gospel. Can I ask you a question? I really understand what you're saying.

02:16:50

I agree with you. Now you're breaking up.

02:16:55

Go ahead. Sorry, can you hear me now? Yeah, you're okay.

02:17:02

Hello? Yes, I can hear you. Sorry, yeah. Okay. Matt, I'm agreeing with you.

02:17:08

I even used Romans 4 -5 when I was talking to a Roman Catholic about, you know, salvation not being by works.

02:17:16

I pointed exactly to that same verse. Does not work. I'm agreeing with you that you don't have to work for your salvation.

02:17:27

Do you have to work to keep it? Well, it depends on what you mean by keep.

02:17:34

Maintain your position with God in salvation by your effort. No, I wouldn't say that.

02:17:41

No, because I'd say... Then are you justified by faith alone in Christ alone?

02:17:50

Yeah. Then if you're justified by faith alone in Christ alone, then it doesn't matter what works you do as far as your salvation goes.

02:17:58

Sanctification, yes. Salvation, no. Because if you're justified by faith alone in Christ alone, then you're justified.

02:18:04

And since He forgave us all of our transgressions, you're saved. You can't have a person be saved who's also got sin not paid for.

02:18:14

How could he be saved by Christ if not all of his sins are paid for? All his sins are paid for.

02:18:20

He paid for the whole world. Okay. Then the whole world's going to heaven. Yeah, the whole world's tasted death for all men, every man.

02:18:29

Did he actually cancel the sin debt for everybody who ever lived? Did he cancel the sin debt?

02:18:38

Well, I believe he forgives the sin debt. I don't know what you mean by cancel, but he forgives your sins.

02:18:45

Colossians 2 .14, having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees, which was also to us, He took it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

02:18:51

Having canceled the certificate of debt. Right before it, it says, having forgiven us all of our transgressions.

02:18:57

Having canceled the certificate of debt. Did he cancel the certificate of debt, the sin debt, for everybody who ever lived?

02:19:04

No, but it says our transgressions, being the believers. The believers have their sin canceled.

02:19:11

Okay. When do the believers have their sin debt canceled? At the cross or when they believe?

02:19:23

Well, they're not saved before they believe. When's the sin debt canceled for the believer? At the cross or when they believe?

02:19:29

That says at the cross. You heard it. You just said it yourself. So then the people's sin debt's canceled at the cross.

02:19:38

How's that work? Is it canceled at the cross for everybody or only for the believers at the cross?

02:19:45

Yeah, it says only ours, all our transgressions. It's us. Welcome to limited atonement.

02:19:53

No. Yes. I don't think so. Yes. Okay. That's what it is.

02:19:59

If you say you canceled the sin debt for everybody, that's not what you're saying. You're saying only for the believers. That's what

02:20:05

I believe. That's what the text is saying. It's not canceled for everybody. Welcome to limited atonement. So if he canceled it for the believers, did he cancel all the sin debt for the believers?

02:20:17

All the sin debt, yeah. Well, then you can't lose your salvation, can you? Oh, but when you say that that's limited atonement,

02:20:29

I heard that limited atonement means that not everyone can be saved. Only some people can be saved.

02:20:36

No. If you cancel the sin debt, the sin debt doesn't exist anymore. It's done at the cross. You said it was for the believers, not for everybody.

02:20:43

That's limited atonement. Then I'm going to work with you and say, okay, if he canceled it for the believers, only the believers, all of their sin is canceled, can they lose their salvation?

02:20:52

Can you answer that question? I still believe you can lose your salvation.

02:20:59

Then how is it possible to lose your salvation if he forgave you of all of your sins? They canceled it at the cross, all of them.

02:21:07

How can you lose your salvation? They're all canceled. How can you lose it? Because, you know, there are other verses that speak about...

02:21:17

How can you lose the salvation that he's given you if all of your sin debt has been canceled?

02:21:27

Well, it's not that you lose your salvation. It's more like a purposeful forfeiting.

02:21:32

Like, lose means like you accidentally drop it or whatever. But... Can a person who has all of his sin debt go to hell?

02:21:46

If it's all canceled? I mean, if all of his sin is removed and canceled, can he go to hell? All of it, can he go to hell?

02:22:00

No, no, of course not. Good. Good. Then you cannot lose your salvation. I just don't see the logical inference from that.

02:22:12

But can I ask you about the verse that I was... We'll do one more verse.

02:22:17

We've got one more verse. We'll have other people who want to talk because we're just going around. I've put you in a corner.

02:22:22

I've shown you that your theology is incorrect. I've identified the problem. I've shown you scripture that you can't address.

02:22:29

You've halfway came to a proper understanding. You don't see the problem. You won't admit it.

02:22:35

Now you want to go to another verse. Let's go to the one verse that we're going to see if someone else like Nathaniel here wants to add something in and let it before I go in 15 or 20 minutes.

02:22:43

Go ahead. Yeah. So with the limited atonement, my friend called in about John 12, 47.

02:22:53

He says, if any man hears my word but doesn't believe, I don't judge him.

02:22:59

I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. How do you respond to this verse?

02:23:05

Because it seems to be saying that he came to save those who reject him. He who sees me sees the one who sent me.

02:23:14

I've come as a light into the world so that everyone who believes in me will not remain in darkness. If anyone...

02:23:20

I'm reading the context. If anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them,

02:23:26

I do not judge them. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He didn't come then for the purpose of judging them to damnation.

02:23:32

His purpose that he came in his first time was to save the world. He who rejects me does not receive my sayings as the one who judges him.

02:23:40

So God the Father is under judgment of those who reject him right now. He'll come back later in the second time as the condemning judge.

02:23:47

He came the first time to save the world. And the world means all the nations, all the people, groups, and things like that.

02:23:53

Not just the Jews. No. It says like those who hear my word but don't believe, they reject it.

02:24:00

Yeah. Lots of Jews did that all over the place. They heard his word. They didn't believe.

02:24:08

Did he come to save those Jews? He came to save the world. Yeah. The world is defined as those who reject him.

02:24:17

What's the word world mean? In that context, it means those who reject him. That's not what it says.

02:24:24

He says, he who hears my word and doesn't believe it, I've not come to judge him, but to save the world.

02:24:32

It doesn't say him. It says cosmos, world. Came to judge the world, but to save the world.

02:24:39

Yeah. And wouldn't you say that the context there is that the person who hears and doesn't believe.

02:24:44

What's the word world mean? The world of the unbelievers. What's the word world mean? It has many different means, but I'm talking about this context.

02:24:52

That's what I'm asking you. What does the word world mean? And I'm trying to explain that it means that person who hears his word but doesn't believe.

02:25:01

It means that, oh, the person who hears the world doesn't believe. He came to save the ones who don't believe? How has he saved the ones who don't believe since he had to believe to be saved?

02:25:14

This is the point I was getting at. That is unlimited, provisional, unconditional atonement for everyone.

02:25:20

The people who don't believe. People who reject him. Well, that's if you deny Colossians 2 .14

02:25:26

and 13. That's if you deny 1 John 2 .4 or 2 .2,

02:25:33

propitiation issue. And that's if you say that the word world here means just the unbelievers.

02:25:42

So what you do is. Okay, what does it mean to you? Well, I'm not exactly sure exactly what it means, but I know this.

02:25:49

Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep at the house of Israel, Matthew 15 .24.

02:25:54

He was not sent to the whole world, to all the people groups, to all the nations. It was a covenant thing where the

02:26:01

Messiah was to come only to Israel. I know that. He says he came in as a light into the world, verse 46.

02:26:08

The word world there doesn't mean just the unbelievers. It means all people, the people in the world, the whole thing.

02:26:16

He's a light in the world so that everyone who believes, that's what he's talking about. The ones who believe, everyone who believes, pas, all who believe in me will not remain in darkness.

02:26:29

If anyone hears my saying that doesn't keep them, I don't judge them. I didn't come into the world to save the world.

02:26:35

The context is in verse 46, the world is the earth. The world is the place where he is.

02:26:42

It's all the people, the Jews, the Gentiles, it's the whole thing. That's what the context is. P .K.,

02:26:48

you try and read into the text what you wanted to say in order to justify your error.

02:26:54

And let me ask you again. I want to get to other people. We're going in circles, and I get it after an hour of going in circles,

02:27:03

I tend to want to move on. And then what happens? It always happens. It always happens. People say, Matt couldn't handle it, he had to run.

02:27:10

I'm like, sheesh. But going in circles is the same thing. You've been very gracious.

02:27:16

You've talked, you've answered, and you've gone to scripture. I really appreciate that, man. No, that's okay.

02:27:22

I'm sure you know I'd get along, we'd be friends, go out and do something stupid together. If we're next to each other, I'd love your accent too.

02:27:27

But the thing is, you're believing, I mean this pastorally, I mean it lovingly, you're believing a false gospel.

02:27:33

You're not trusting in faith alone, in Christ alone. You're putting your maintenance of your salvation in your own hands.

02:27:40

Dude, you can't do that. Trust in Christ alone. You're not good enough, and I don't mean that in an insulting way, you're just not good.

02:27:48

I'm not good enough to keep ourselves right with God. That's arrogance. We're supposed to keep the commandments.

02:27:55

We're supposed to do those things. But those aren't the things that save us, because Paul says it's not the things that save us, and so did

02:28:01

Jesus. So you need the gospel. You need to trust in Christ alone.

02:28:08

Ask Jesus to save you completely and totally, not save me as long as I do the things

02:28:14

I got to do to keep myself right, and then I'm justified by faith as long as I have faith because it's up to me and my goodness.

02:28:23

You have a false gospel. No, I think it's the same gospel, man.

02:28:34

But yeah, we both believe that you have to have faith to be saved, and you agree that living faith produces works, and I agree with that.

02:28:44

But the works don't save you. You're saved by faith. I agree with that, too. Those works don't save you.

02:28:51

But you say the works keep you saved. Yeah, the works accompany faith, and faith keeps you saved.

02:29:00

So do the works contribute to you keeping yourself right with God? I asked you earlier, what do you have to do to keep yourself right with God?

02:29:10

And you said, be honest, love your neighbor, love God. I wrote it down. So you're saying, now you're retracting from that, which is good.

02:29:19

You said earlier, you have to do good works, keep the law, basically, and to be saved to keep yourself right with God.

02:29:25

I asked you that specifically. So you were teaching that you maintain your position before God by your efforts.

02:29:35

That's foolish. You can go ahead to Nathaniel if he wants to say something.

02:29:42

Anybody else want to say anything? Let's see.

02:29:50

Unmute. Unmute. Unmute.

02:29:57

Hey, Matt. Can you hear me? I hear somebody talking. Yeah, it's

02:30:03

Praise. Okay. Hey, Praise. How are you doing, buddy? Pretty good. So, I mean,

02:30:08

I don't know if you know who Matt Yeser is, or one way, other buddies of mine. And I'm not a reformer right now, but I'm like leaning and thinking, you know, of checking that out.

02:30:18

But my question, I kind of want to hone in on John 1. Okay.

02:30:25

And I think that the issue is total inability. I want to see how you would address, you know,

02:30:33

John 1, 7 through 9. To me, that doesn't really speak to total inability.

02:30:40

And how would you address those passages? Well, those are interesting passages. So, he came as a witness to testify about the light.

02:30:47

That's John the Baptist, so that all might believe through him. Now, that's an interesting statement.

02:30:52

Who's the all? Right. Believe through him. Well, we could say in one case, all the believing ones.

02:31:00

But I could also make a case that the all is only the elect. And I have a good argument for that, but that's another time.

02:31:05

For he was not the light, that's John, but he came to testify about the light. There was a true light coming into the world, enlightens every man.

02:31:12

Now, to be honest, that verse is kind of puzzling, whether you're a

02:31:18

Calvinist or not a Calvinist. Okay. But what does it mean to, in fact, here we go.

02:31:27

Let's see. I think I've written on this before in my notes. Let's see. John 1, 9.

02:31:35

I guess I haven't. Okay. But I did. All right. I have notes, 82 pages of notes on Calvinism.

02:31:47

So anyway, so enlightens every man. Well, what does it mean to enlighten?

02:31:52

And I'm not trying to play games with words, but this is what I do. I ask questions like, okay, what does it mean to enlighten?

02:31:59

Because the word enlighten is a fortizo and it occurs.

02:32:04

Let me see. For example, it's Greek 5, 4, 6, 1, 5, 4, 6, 1.

02:32:15

And it occurs 11 times. Okay. In the new Testament. So what I'll do is like, okay, let's, let's see what it means.

02:32:21

And I'll go through this quickly. Luke 11, 36, as when the lamp illumines you with its rays coming into the world, enlightens every man, that's this verse.

02:32:31

Wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you will know what your hope is of his calling and bring to light what is the administration of the mystery, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

02:32:49

For in the case of those who once have been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, that's Hebrews 6, 4.

02:32:57

Former days, when after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings. The earth was illumined with his glory.

02:33:04

Two more. And the God of glory, the God who has illumined it and his lamp is the lamb. We're in revelations now because the

02:33:11

Lord God will illumine them and they will reign forever and ever. All right. So I can't get an exact meaning of the word enlighten in John 1, 9.

02:33:22

Now to be, I'm going to just tell you, this is exactly what I do when I do studies on my own. Nobody's listening.

02:33:27

I don't have any answers to ask to give to anybody. I'm just studying. And I go, okay,

02:33:35

I need to find out how is it used? That's what I do. And so as I've gone through these,

02:33:42

I can't decide if there's a special pattern. Granted, I'm doing it quickly. Well, okay.

02:33:48

So he comes into the world. Well, what does the word world means? I believe that it means, it can mean two things at least.

02:33:57

One is just the earth and his people. And also the world can also take on the meaning of the

02:34:05

Jews and the Gentiles, but I don't think that's what it really means here. I think it really means not to be flippant, but the planet earth, you know, our realm.

02:34:13

And he enlightens every man. Okay. If every man means every single individual, well, then does it mean every individual who lived in the past and the present and the future?

02:34:27

Or does it only mean the present? Because if it's going to mean two, it's going to have to mean three to the past and present or future and present.

02:34:36

Well, might as well be all three. So it's either everybody's ever lived or only the people of the time who are alive right now.

02:34:45

So these are the questions I go through. I go, okay. And a lot of time I do this and I come up with a conclusion of heck,

02:34:51

I don't know. That's what happens a lot. So he enlightens every man. If it means every man right then and there, then being

02:34:59

God in flesh, I have no problem with that because he can certainly enlighten everybody on the entire planet because he's

02:35:08

God. But then we have to ask, what does it mean to enlighten everybody on the planet?

02:35:16

You know, and then, and nothing tells us. So at that point, I'd have to say, I don't know. And to be honest,

02:35:23

I don't know, but we can say that there's, I believe there's something to the effect of his very presence enlightens everybody.

02:35:32

Does it? Yeah, I agree. I agree. But it won't sense. So then we can go enlighten in different sensing and different senses.

02:35:39

We can say enlightened to the point of salvation or enlightening as this is who

02:35:45

I am or enlightening because I'm God, my natural essence is upon you and you're going to be convicted, but that's the job of the

02:35:52

Holy Spirit. So, you know, we can go these different ways and then we have these combinations of iterations.

02:35:58

And so sometimes my own intellect runs me aground and I come up and I go, I don't know what it means.

02:36:05

And when, with this verse, my answer is this, I don't know what it means. And it's, and the reason

02:36:12

I spent that time showing you is because it's not me going, I'm not going to answer it. I just don't know what it means. No, I actually think through these things and go, what does it mean?

02:36:20

I'm not sure. And because I'm not sure what it does mean, I can't say what it doesn't mean to a point.

02:36:28

I think we could probably say it doesn't mean the people who were damned and in a state of damnation in hell rotting.

02:36:38

I don't think it means that, but it could because he's God in flesh.

02:36:44

So you see how difficult it is to answer the question? Oh yeah. Yeah. And I thought you'd be a good, because you're a top apologetic and but I appreciate your humility on this and humbleness.

02:36:54

And usually others, like, you know, I can name a couple others that probably would try to answer that through their own subjective opinion.

02:37:02

So I appreciate that. Well, you know, I appreciate you saying that because you know, if I try and say it, and I don't know if you hear me on the radio very much, but if at all, whatever, but I'll say, you know,

02:37:15

I don't know, or this is why you'll hear me go on the radio. It could mean this, it could mean that it's not a game

02:37:21

I'm playing. It's like, no, I'm serious. What does it mean? And let me show you guys something.

02:37:29

For example, come on. Where is it? I'm going to show you this.

02:37:35

Let's see what gets through it quickly. I'm doing word studies and I can share my screen.

02:37:44

And I'm trying to, I'm doing a topic on the word law. I'm doing this very thing with that word.

02:37:55

And I want to show it to you and I can share the screen and show it to you.

02:38:01

So you could see, I really do do this. I really do. But you know what?

02:38:10

I can't find it, but, but look, okay. I'll do it with this though.

02:38:16

I'm doing it with, I'll share my screen. I'll explain what I'm doing on something else.

02:38:24

Okay. Here, there, whoops, allow.

02:38:32

All right. Hope you can see that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So this is a, this is a study

02:38:38

I'm doing and it's on, out of Acts 2 .38,

02:38:45

it says, baptize in the name of Jesus Christ for aphesin, for forgiveness.

02:38:53

And the word aphesin, okay. So what I did was I looked at every single instance in the entire

02:38:59

New Testament for the Greek word aphesin. And I have that list because I can probably, let's see if I go to baptism.

02:39:10

Let's see. Baptism. I do work. Baptism table.

02:39:17

Let's see if this is ace for Greek grammar. Let's see if it's in here. Is it opening up?

02:39:24

No. All of the ace in the Greek New Testament. All? Yeah.

02:39:29

Here's every instance of it in the entire New Testament where it has in agreement with,

02:39:36

I think the word, the preposition. So anyway, you get the idea of what

02:39:43

I do. And so I'll go, okay, here we have, for example, this, the word baptized, it's a verb.

02:39:51

Then we have the indirect object. We have the preposition. Then we have the direct object and we have the genitive case.

02:39:57

Genitive means possession. And so I'm going, okay, are there any patterns where it occurs like this?

02:40:09

Verb, indirect object, preposition, direct object, genitive. Now, what I'm showing you is this is the kind of stuff

02:40:16

I'll study. This is what I'll do. And I'll try and find patterns. So I couldn't figure out how in my

02:40:23

Bible program to do a search where I'm actually searching for this kind of thing.

02:40:31

Verb, indirect object, dative. So I went to the Logos Bible Forum. So I had to go back and look, see if there's an answer yet.

02:40:38

And I said, is it possible to do this kind of searching? Because I want to see if there's a pattern in the

02:40:44

Greek that I can look to. Because what does it mean? So you see,

02:40:50

I'm trying to defend myself in the sense when I say, I don't know what it means. I have to study it.

02:40:55

And then I may not even come up with a conclusion. I mean, I don't know what it means. I have to study it. And I may not come up with a conclusion because that's what

02:41:03

I do. I study like that. Yeah. I mean, that sounds like what scholars do too.

02:41:10

That's probably what they would, in that type of material they would probably do. Yeah.

02:41:16

Well, look at my annihilation section here. These are the word studies

02:41:21

I've done. Wow. That's incredible. So is that Logos software you got or is that something else?

02:41:29

Yeah. That's Logos software. Well, this right here is not Logos. This is an old program from Microsoft. It's free now.

02:41:36

But like the word chaff, let's see. So look at this. This is my study, chaff.

02:41:44

Wow. That's incredible. And look at this. This is how it goes down. So, I mean,

02:41:51

I went through the Old Testament and found that word and then

02:41:58

I summarize it. Okay. So for example, I'll show you what I found out. Something really interesting.

02:42:04

If I can remember this. Let me go here.

02:42:17

Hold on a sec. It's been a while.

02:42:30

That's not it. Yeah. That is fascinating.

02:42:39

I guess my only other question would be John 1 .7. And I don't know how reformers approach subjunctives.

02:42:47

And see, when Jesus says that they might all believe, that's like a mood of hope or a mood of possibility.

02:42:55

Right. And I just don't understand how that aligns with reformed theology, because isn't everything in the past determined or declared in the past?

02:43:06

So let's see how you would address that. Well, let me say that I don't put everything in a five -point basket.

02:43:15

Okay. And what I believe is, the reason

02:43:21

I'm a Calvinist, the reason I'm reformed is because it has most of the answers. It doesn't have all of them.

02:43:28

Arminianism, to me, doesn't have nearly as many answers as reformed theology does.

02:43:37

So I've told people, here's an analogy. You're going down this infinitely long road and Catholicism gets you two feet.

02:43:47

Wesleyanism gets you three feet. Arminianism gets you five feet. Calvinism gets you 10 feet and we're done.

02:43:56

And that road is still so far out there. So there are things in the scriptures that I'll say, you know what,

02:44:03

I don't know how to answer that as a Calvinist, but it doesn't mean Calvinism is not true. It means, you know, it means, okay,

02:44:11

I don't know what that means yet. And let me tell you, I have changed my theology in many areas over the years, many times, because I will do things like those word studies.

02:44:23

And so I'm not loyal to denomination. I'm a Calvinist who goes to Calvary Chapel.

02:44:30

You know, I don't care. I don't care. You know,

02:44:36

I don't owe anything to anybody. I get this privilege of arrogantly being able to look at the word of God and write my own opinions about everything

02:44:43

I study. No one says, you know, you got to write about baptism. No one denomination is looking down their nose at me.

02:44:50

I am free. Yeah, I appreciate that approach.

02:44:56

That sounds like a good way to approach things. I think it's a very good way to approach things, but it doesn't mean

02:45:02

I'm right about everything because, you know, I'm not right about everything. But so your question, you know what,

02:45:10

I'm not sure how to answer it on John 1 .9. Wow. Yeah. So I appreciate your humility there also,

02:45:16

Matt. And I guarantee there's some that wouldn't take that, wouldn't agree to that. They'd probably try to conjure up something and try to answer with their own opinions.

02:45:25

I just thought, to me, that kind of takes away from scholarship and the truth, you know, the word of God. So I appreciate what your humility here tonight.

02:45:34

Well, I'm proud of my humility. I've been working on it for a long time. That's a bad joke.

02:45:41

Bad, bad, bad. Well, thanks for your time, Matt. Sure. Amen. God bless.

02:45:47

I'm going to be quitting here pretty soon here. Anybody else want to comment? Augustine Palamite.

02:45:54

Sounds like a Star Wars character. Oh, hello, Matt. Hi. Okay. Is my microphone working well?

02:46:02

Yes. So I desire this to be a very strict interlocution on a very specific soteriological topic.

02:46:10

Wow. Okay. All right. So I have a few questions, for example.

02:46:17

Can you demonstrate your criteria for both what the ontological character of faith is and also to elaborate upon what constitutes a work?

02:46:28

Faith is something that God grants to us. I can't talk about this ontos because it's a concept. It's an abstraction that occurs in us.

02:46:36

Just like a thought is a product of the mind, but how does I have an ontos? How do you describe the nature and the essence of an abstraction?

02:46:44

And I don't know how to do that. We can describe something like this with its properties. It occurs in time, it occurs in the mind, but to get to the actual essence of something,

02:46:53

I don't believe I can do that. It's kind of a platonic thing if you're talking about an issue of transcendentals. So that's about as far as I could go into that discussion.

02:47:01

What was your other question? Oh, okay. No, I asked both. All right. Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah.

02:47:08

What constitutes... I want you to elaborate upon what constitutes a work, for example.

02:47:15

Well, the Bible tells us that works are those things described in the Old Testament. Loving God, loving your neighbor, helping people, being honest, not being honest.

02:47:25

All the stuff that the law has talked about, 613 commandments in the Old Testament. And that's summarized as the law by Paul in Galatians 3 .28,

02:47:33

et cetera, and Romans 4 .5 .6. And so it would be, generically speaking, those things that we do.

02:47:41

Okay. So it wouldn't simply be an inner guy or a movement of a man?

02:47:48

Well, it depends on how you mean it, because words have a meaning based on the context.

02:47:54

So, you're an Augustinian Palamite, whatever that means. What church do you go to? I'm an inquirer of Eastern Orthodoxy.

02:48:03

Okay. I kind of suspected that. From your first response, you stated that it's a product of the mind.

02:48:09

It's a sort of thought process. Is that correct? Well, kind of. God grants faith to us.

02:48:15

All right. So is faith consequential of human agency, as in, is it volitional or willed from human nature?

02:48:24

Of course it is. Faith is something that we do volitionally, because God enables us to volitionally be faithful and have faith.

02:48:31

But wouldn't you agree that something that is willed from human nature would necessarily be an activity?

02:48:39

Yes, but it's not a work in the sense that the Bible calls it works works.

02:48:44

In fact, God does call faith a work. In John 6, 28, 29, Jesus says, this is the work of God that you believe on whom he has sent.

02:48:54

No, but whatever is a work would be something, we have different categories of the word working or activity within Scripture.

02:49:03

We have energia, for example, which would be the most simple format, right? So how would this specifically be compatible with Romans 4, 5?

02:49:16

If faith is something that proceeds from human agency. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

02:49:21

You're misrepresenting me. God grants that we believe and faith occurs in our minds.

02:49:27

You asked for an ontological definition, a description of its essence. I told you I couldn't do that. So now what you're doing, I know you're trying to do is to try and set me up with a series of questions, get me a certain set of answers and then draw a conclusion and try and get something.

02:49:40

But you got to be careful because what you have not failed to do or you have failed to do in your questioning in the continuation is to acknowledge that I don't have a complete answer on the nature and essence of faith.

02:49:51

I could go to you and ask the same question. I could say, define for me what the ontological essence of faith is.

02:49:57

I would be happy to define that for you. Really? Try it. The ontological essence.

02:50:04

Do you know what that means? I don't believe that ontology is necessarily essential to be fair because I believe in the essence and energy is distinction.

02:50:12

Yes, I know. So when I. Yeah, you're going to fall into the false teachings of the of the.

02:50:19

Are you mute yourself? Oh, you were talking. Do you want me to explain the ontology of what constitutes faith?

02:50:26

It's very character. Go ahead. I would explain it. For example, we have many verses within scripture that define

02:50:34

God is particularly faithful. And we know that from his property of knowing all things or omniscience that he necessarily has knowledge of himself.

02:50:44

So and that would be a justified true belief in of itself. Right. So in my view, in accordance with verses such as on James 121, where it states that the word of God is implanted into the rational soul of the man uses and fools, which means to implants.

02:51:03

Right. I would say that faith is an implantation of the divine knowledge into the human noose or spirit.

02:51:11

Let's look at the Greek and what that says. Do you read Greek? Um, someone

02:51:16

I I'm I have more of a sort of I'm not I'm not really well trained in the

02:51:21

Greek language. I try to parse. You want me to parse a verb? Um, I've heard it before, but I'm not.

02:51:28

All right. So this is what it says. Therefore, putting aside all the remains, wickedness and humility receive.

02:51:36

So let's take a look. Humility receive. Uh, yeah, receive.

02:51:46

I'm looking at the inner lid. I don't want you to think I got all this from memory. OK, right. OK, but I had well,

02:51:52

I know the word, but I'm just looking at what it says. I mean, you know, so it's a middle voice.

02:51:59

Receive it. You can receive it yourself. And the word implanted.

02:52:06

OK, amphetone. All right. Which ton, right? Uh, do not from Dunham.

02:52:13

OK, this is able. Um, and then we should have an infinitive. Uh, not really.

02:52:21

Doers. What would it go? Oh, wrong thing. Come on. Come on.

02:52:26

Get in there. You slimeball. There we go. Which is able to save.

02:52:32

So decide your soul. So what you said, that's not what the Greek says. I literally said that it's amphetone, which comes from and which should be in or interior internal to and foos, which would mean to plant or plant into the ground.

02:52:48

It's implanted. Yes, the word implanted, which is able to save your soul. So you're saying it's implanted in your souls, right?

02:52:55

Um, I would say it's implanted in. Uh, you know that the Eastern Orthodox believe in a trichotomic soul or a tripartite, not soul, just the trichotomists.

02:53:06

That's OK. Yeah. What do you think is the words implanted in our souls? What does that mean? I would say that it's implanted into the noose, which is within the intellect or the rationality of the soul.

02:53:19

Yeah, not us mind. Not us in Greek. So so the word of God is implanted into us.

02:53:26

Yeah, it is infused. I believe in it. It's infused. Yes. So infusion is between one substance with another substance.

02:53:35

Uh, I wouldn't necessarily state that it has to be a substance or an essence, particularly as a...

02:53:41

So then how is something without an essence, without an essence infused? I don't specifically see why you have to necessarily define it as an essence or a substance.

02:53:51

That seems to be a subjective definition. You said it was infused. I said substances are infused with one another.

02:53:56

It's a divine energy or activity. What's a divine energy? Um, so so this is where we come into the essence energy distinction, where we hold the essence of God to be really or truly distinct from his energies.

02:54:12

The energies are completely cataphatic, whereas the essence is apathetic, as in we can only speak of it through negational predications.

02:54:21

OK, you're just describing what there's not, but you don't know what it is. Yeah, that's.

02:54:27

So then if you don't know what it is, how are you going to speak about what it can do? Well, because what it is has properties, and if you can have properties related to something, what it is, then you could describe its function.

02:54:38

If you don't have that, it's not going to work. When I say what it is,

02:54:43

I'm referring specifically to the whole the ontology of the Godhead in of itself, which would exist fully of essence and energy.

02:54:53

Wow, let me add, I'm going to go in five minutes, because it'll be nine o 'clock for me. I've been on for three hours.

02:54:58

Let me ask you a question here. OK, how are we justified before God by faith alone in Christ alone or something else?

02:55:08

Um, we're completely on. We're justified by his divine grace through faith. But yeah, here's the this goes back to the original issue, right?

02:55:20

I just asked a simple question. Are we justified by faith alone in Christ alone or not?

02:55:26

Yeah, of course. Do we have to do any good works in order to be justified or stay justified?

02:55:33

No, no, because those works are the workings of God. So it has nothing to do with our human will in the first place.

02:55:40

You're playing a word game, word game, word game. Because Catholics will say, no, we're not. Our works don't save us.

02:55:46

We don't do any works. It's God working in us. But we do about it. That's not even what they believe. If you read the

02:55:52

Summa Theologiae Prima Secundae Partes question 114, they believe that the works are enabled by grace, but they still proceed from the human will.

02:56:01

Whereas I would say that's fine. I don't have any problem with that. I don't believe they actually necessarily proceed from the human will, but the human will.

02:56:09

If they don't proceed from the human will, then we can't be responsible or have culpability for them or any credit for them. They have to become out of our freedom. We don't need any credit.

02:56:17

Then you can't be held responsible. Yeah, we're only held responsible for our non -participation or our disobedience.

02:56:27

You're only held responsible for what you don't do? Yeah, for your disobedience.

02:56:35

You're not held responsible for everything you do? You're held responsible for your disobedience, which would be entailed within everything you do.

02:56:42

Yeah. So you're not held responsible for what you do.

02:56:50

You're held responsible for what you don't do. Yeah, you're held responsible for your disobedience, which would be the absence of God's very goodness.

02:57:00

So then you are responsible for what you do, which is being disobedient. I do not believe that human nature can accomplish something such as obedience, even when enabled.

02:57:18

But the problem you have is you're too steeped in philosophy and you're going to screw yourself into six feet under spiritually.

02:57:26

No, but I want to take this back to the original. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm going to go in a couple of minutes because I've been on for three hours.

02:57:37

You're a man of philosophy and you subject the word of God to your philosophy.

02:57:44

I ask you these questions and I try and apply what you say back to yourself and get more philosophy. No, I believe it's subject to logical true dichotomies because Christ is the principal logos and through him all things were endowed with logic.

02:57:59

The created order specifically. Okay. So you've studied this stuff.

02:58:07

You've read some of their philosophers. You read some of the philosophy. And you subject the word of God to that philosophy.

02:58:15

No, I subject it to true logical dichotomies, which would be either or just to be specifically in particular.

02:58:24

Are we then justified by faith alone in Christ alone or not? Yeah, we are justified by the very faith of God, the very divine knowledge that is infused within us.

02:58:34

Because see, I ask a question. You don't answer the question. I said yes. The answer is yes or it's no.

02:58:42

You know what a true dichotomy is, right? Yes. The thing and the negation of the thing with no middle option.

02:58:48

Yeah, that would be applying to the law of identity and the law of non -contradiction. And the law of excluded middle.

02:58:54

Yeah. Well, is baptism necessary for salvation, water baptism?

02:59:09

Yeah, but I would hold that water baptism is an operation of God and the faith that draws it to it is also an operation of God in the first place.

02:59:17

So are the works that you do contributory to your salvation in any way? No, because they aren't even works that proceed for my human will in the first place.

02:59:26

So anything you do good is not of your own will? No. I would hold to Sinner Gaia, but I would hold that...

02:59:34

Oh, hold on, hold on. So anything that you do that's good is not you doing it?

02:59:41

It doesn't proceed from my own will. I cannot do anything that is good by my own nature. Okay.

02:59:47

Okay. All right. I deny views such as the univocity of being and other such things.

02:59:55

Well, you're using words I don't know. Hold on. Okay, I can explain it for you.

03:00:00

No, no, no, no, no, no. I said I want to get going. We've got about for three hours. Okay, that's fine.

03:00:08

I'm in your Discord if you want to talk about it more. Maybe, but the thing is, you don't answer things simply.

03:00:14

You answer things that are complicated with all kinds of meanings and all kinds of words behind them.

03:00:20

And admit it, I need to study more of those kind of things to be able to argue in that level. But the thing is,

03:00:25

I do try and construct my questions so that it can be answered simply. Yeah, I'm fine with answering yes or no questions.

03:00:32

I believe that's a proper format. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's good.

03:00:38

But we can talk some other time about some other topics. It'll happen. All right. But I'm starting to get a hit, you know, not from you.

03:00:44

I've been on for three hours. Plus, I did a radio. I've been working real hard, so all day. So, you know,

03:00:50

I just want to take a break. And otherwise, we'll just keep talking forever. All right. I'm not sure what you want to talk about.

03:00:56

I'm not sure what your point is anyway. So see if you can, you know, get a list of some specific questions. We can talk about stuff.

03:01:01

Okay. That's fine. Okay, okay. All right. All right. Well, thanks.

03:01:07

All right. Have a nice day. You too. Okay. All right. It's been three hours.

03:01:12

I am tired. And it takes a lot out of me to do this. And after a while, I get burned out. So I'm going to get going.

03:01:18

I hope everybody enjoyed that. And it was fun and spooky mysticism.

03:01:25

I've had discussions like this with people. It takes two to three hours. I've discussed things with Eastern Orthodox people.

03:01:33

Not on that level. He knows a lot. But there's a little bit underneath it with a lot of terms, a lot of stuff. We go back and forth.

03:01:38

What does that mean? It takes two to three hours to get through. I just know that. I'm like,

03:01:43

I don't want to do that. I'm done. That's all. So hey, I had a great time. And I appreciate it.

03:01:50

It was a great discussion, I thought. So may the Lord bless you. I'm going to go rest.

03:01:57

We'll see you guys. God bless. Good night. See you, Charlie. Okay. See you.