Open Discussion, 1/16/2020

We're going. All right, there we go. It's about a minute till, less than a minute till eight o 'clock Eastern time. And opening up this venue, hopefully we'll be able to get some people in here tonight to have a discussion on whatever they want to talk about, Roman Catholicism, Calvinism.

The reason I opened this video room tonight, and we'll see how it goes, is because of my discussions. I got Shanghai'd in, I don't know how I got in there, the Reformed Coffee House. I made a comment.

And so basically I get attacked a lot by Roman Catholics. A lot of personal insults, just a lot of condemnation. And I try and be as polite as I can. And so I was responding, I was thinking politely and properly.

So I thought what I would do is offer an opportunity for people to come in and have a discussion. And now it's me not lying in wait to jump people and to crush them and things like that. That's not what I'm interested in doing.

So if you wanna have discussions, feel free. I put the information on the CARM Facebook page. And actually I believe I did, I don't know if I did or not. I put it on one, let me put it in my CARM Facebook page.

I got so many things going on, so please bear with me. I'll get that going. And maybe we'll get some people in here, we can have some good discussions. Hopefully, I really do hope that the people who wanna talk are Roman Catholics.

I really do wanna build a dialogue with them, politely, hopefully, and convey to them what I believe and teach about the Roman Catholic Church. A lot of Roman Catholics have said that I don't know Catholicism.

Maybe I don't, but I would think I would after studying it for many years and reading a lot of their material. So in fact, I remember once, years ago when I had the radio station here in Boise and I was discussing things with a Catholic priest who came in and he said, he looked at my material on CARM.

And I asked him, I said, is it accurate? Does it accurately represent Catholicism? And he said, well, for the most part, yeah. And so that was nice. We didn't get into the particulars. I don't know if we did.

I can't remember the conversation too much after that, but it happened a long time ago. All right, so hello, Terry and Randall, Melissa, Marlene, Jimmy, Justa, and Jess. How are you all doing? I suspect that you're all Protestants and I kinda suspect that we're not gonna be seeing too many Catholics coming in, if at all.

I hope it's not just the case that they are, hey, Bill, Parker, I hope it's not just the case that what they wanna do is just throw mud from a distance and not deal with the issues or talk to me personally and things like that.

Several of the people on the Reformed Coffee, Coffee House, is that what it is? Yeah, Reformed Coffee House. Several of the Catholics have been just vitriolic and accusatory, very accusatory of me personally and accusing me of personal deception and pretending and various sins.

I just hope that what they would do instead would be to have a real discussion. All right, so I see a bunch of people in the chat and we've got 45 people watching, I guess, that's good. And nobody is in the StreamYard thing if you guys want to have a discussion.

All you have to do is, I'll put this in here, if anybody wants to join me, all you have to do is click on that and that link or put the link in and you can get right in and it helps to have a camera, but you don't have to have a camera, but it does, you need to have a microphone of some sort.

Otherwise, there's no purpose of being in here. Might as well stay out and just type because this is a voice and video option here. So are there any Catholics in the chat? I see some people who are here.

I'm just trying to fill the time until people come in and we can have a discussion. I'm hoping it'll happen. Hi, Carla. So we've got 44 people watching. We have some in Facebook and let me check this out here.

I'll go to my Facebook page and maybe people will make some comments in the Facebook page. I don't know how all of it works very well. So let's just see. What I'm gonna do is give it 10 minutes or so and if people show up, then they show up.

If they don't show up, I'll just probably quit. So I just wanna be able to have a conversation. What it is is this is an attempt to have discussion with the critics, with the Catholics, to see if they're able to defend their faith and substantiate what they believe.

I think they don't wanna show up. Baptismal regenerationists are welcome too. One is Pentecostals. You can get Eastern Orthodox people. You can get various people who wanna come in and have a discussion, ask questions, do a little bit of arguing, that's fine.

But I suspect they don't wanna do that. I don't know what it is. People are so eager to sling mud at me when it's behind their keyboard. But I guess when it's, so to speak, face-to-face, they don't wanna do that.

Yeah, Jesus' word, maybe they won't show up. I doubt if they will, I really do. But I do keep trying to provide an opportunity for them to show up so that we can just have a discussion. And the thing is, so many times, what they do is they accuse me of all kinds of evil, all kinds of sin, that I'm gonna mute them, I won't be nice to them, or whatever it is, but I'm nice.

And hopefully it'll come in. So here's the link again. This is for the StreamYard so that people can come in. You guys can come in too. If you wanna come in and comment, have a little chat, that's fine.

If you have any questions about whatever, that's fine too. And if you don't, that's okay. Can I explain and elaborate on Mariolatry or Mariology? Well, what it comes down to is, unfortunately, the Roman Catholic Church places far too much emphasis on Mary, far, far beyond what the scriptures teach.

And give to her titles and abilities that scripture doesn't even hint at. And it's very unfortunate that that is the case, but it is the case. And, hey, Matt Slick, enjoyed chatting with you today. Good, praise God, man.

Can't wait to do a Google Hangout with you. Oh, okay. Well, you're welcome to talk now if you want. You know, anybody wants to. They can come in. That's the link to participate right there. It helps if you have a microphone.

And sometimes a tech works really easily with people and sometimes it doesn't. What's the best approach for refuting baptismal regeneration? Well, I don't know. It depends on the person. But I think what I'm leaning towards more and more, it's just simply like what I said to the, when this Pentecostal guy, are we justified by faith when we have faith?

Are we justified by faith when we are baptized? And that's a question I want to work with people on. And I have another question I'm thinking about. And that is, when do you die with Christ? Is it when you get baptized?

That's a question I want to ask people and I want to work through that issue with them. And I'm curious to know what that might be, what their answers might be on that, because I want to see. Let's see, looking for some stuff.

Okay. All right. Just checking some other emails and stuff, waiting for people to come in. I have a debate set up with a guy, Dr. Sonny Hernandez. He's a Calvinist. And from what I understand, he denies that we have free will.

I think that's what he denies. I am not sure if that is his position. I assume it is. And I emailed him today asking for exactly what his position is and clarification, along with some definitions, clarifications, so that I can understand what his position is.

That's all. And if he doesn't respond and just waits for the debate, then I'll have to ask the questions. What do you believe about this? How do you define these terms? Because I want to know what people think.

Let's try for when I'm on spring break in March, I'm working for a master's in biomedical sciences and have classes right now. Okay, I get that. So this Hernandez guy hasn't responded to me yet. I emailed him today.

Well, I don't, you know, maybe it would take a day or two or three for him to provide some answers. Let's chat about traditions, means to Catholicism. Come on, guys, why don't you come on into the chat room here, all right?

I think he's a hyper-Calvinist, yeah, but I don't know. People can commonly misunderstand what free will is. Oh, I totally agree with you. There's Nancy Smith, adding her to the stream. And so you have muted yourself, Nancy.

So you have to unmute yourself. This is a new venue for you. There you go. You have to unmute yourself. This is a new venue for you. I want to turn down your speaker. You have to unmute yourself. This is a new venue for you.

I want to turn down your speaker. Yeah, I'll turn it off. Hello. I want to turn down your speaker. Whew, okay, I muted you just for a few seconds so that I can talk. But see if you can turn down your speaker because it's pretty loud.

And if you have a headset, have it go through the earpiece. That's what really works. So here we go. Okay, you're unmuted. Can you hear me okay? Okay. If you have a headset, have it go through the earpiece.

Are you there, Nancy? Can you hear me okay? Yeah. All right. Well, how are you, Nancy? Oh, I'm fine, hanging in there. Okay, are you... What church you go to, obviously I ask.

Everybody asks me, but I always refuse to give because my church has had some bad emails. But I go to a non-denominational.

Okay, non-denominational, all right. So you're not a Roman Catholic, that's good. So you're on the Catholic Forum there, the Catholic, what is it? The Coffee House, Catholic Coffee House? Or the Reformed Coffee House?

Yep. Okay, are you Reformed by any chance? I don't know what that means. Reformed theology is often described by the acronym TULIP, T-U-L-I-P. And T stands for total depravity, which says that a person is touched by sin in all that he is, heart, soul, mind, body.

And because of it, he will never freely choose Christ because he's a slave of sin, a hater of God, et cetera. And U is unconditional election, where God chooses who's to be saved from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1, 4, 5 talks about that. Limited atonement for L, Jesus only legally bore the sin of the elect. Not everybody ever lived. I is for irresistible grace, that at the time of regeneration, that you cannot resist God's regenerative work in you.

And P, perseverance. We don't lose our salvation, but we persevere. So that's basically what it is.

And I'm a five-pointer. I just don't agree with the limited atonement, but. That's all right.

It doesn't mean you can't be in here. It doesn't mean that, you know, I'm not gonna get all over you. If you have questions about it, I can, trust me, I can defend it really well, but. I know. I'm well aware.

What's that? I'm well aware you can defend it. So I'm on your side, but. Yeah, okay, it's all right.

I don't agree with limited atonement because I believe that Jesus died for everyone. Only the elect will be the ones that receive that eternal life.

Can I ask you some questions about that? But I don't want to cross-examine you if you don't want to, and that's okay. Okay. I'm not trying to attack you. Okay, what does the phrase mean, to die for your sins?

Well, in Jesus' case, he died for us to obliterate all our sins.

So did he obliterate them on the cross or did he not obliterate them on the cross?

He died so that all who would believe their sins would be obliterated.

Okay, so then, can I paste a verse in the text? Do you see the text? No, I can't. It's on the right-hand side. No. And I think if what you, or it might be, yeah, you should be able to, I think, I don't know.

I don't know how it is on the, with the, just the view side. Let's see. I'm looking for any, any things here. So I don't know what you see, but on the right-hand side, is there anything on the right-hand side of your screen?

Just a list or private chat or live comments. Yeah, live comments. Yeah, click on that. I don't see anything there.

Well, let's see. If I were to post something in there, let's see what happens. I think I have to log in. Well, maybe not, because you're here in this. Do you see anything now? Nope. Okay.

Well, do you have a Bible in front of you? I can give you a verse to look up. Nope, but I can go on Bible Gateway.

All right, it's up to you. If you want, I can go through this with you. If you don't, that's okay.

I'll just go through it, because I mean, I've been a Christian for like 57 years, so I pretty well know the scriptures. Pretty, oh, good, man.

Praise God, I love that. Yeah, yeah. Well, Colossians 2 .14 is, in my opinion, a killer verse that proves the necessity of limited atonement. That's my opinion on that verse. Okay, read it, please. Okay, but verse 13, the last few words of verse 13, says, having forgiven us all of our transgressions, verse 14, having canceled out the certificate of debt, consisting of decrees which was hostile to us, he's taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Right. So the certificate of debt was nailed to the cross. Right. Right? All right, what is the certificate of debt? What is that debt? That's our sin. Good, I would agree with you. So would you say then that it is saying that our sin debt is canceled at the cross?

Yeah, definitely. So it's canceled at the cross,.

Not when you believe, correct? Way before, like 2 ,000 years ago.

Good, did he cancel it for everybody or not everybody?

I believe that it's dealt with, not canceled, like it's paid for. Well, you just said it was canceled.

And the text says it was canceled, so was it canceled for everybody?

For the believer, yes, but an unbeliever who would end up standing before the great white throne. Okay, but the question is? They'll have to forfeit that and pay for it themselves.

The question is, did Jesus cancel the sin debt at the cross, you said yes, then the next question is, did he cancel it for everybody? It's either yes, he did, or no, he did not. If he canceled it for everybody, here's a question.

How can anybody go to hell if there is no sin debt to judge them?

Well, I remember somebody said a story one time about that. The atonement is like, you're at a restaurant with a bunch of people, a rich man walks in and he says, look, I'm gonna pay for their meal. But there are some at the table who say, no, I'm gonna go wash dishes and pay for my meal.

And so, it's paid for, but somebody is gonna get paid twice.

Well, if Jesus paid for it, then it's paid for. And if they go to hell after Jesus paid for it, then they're also paying for it, they're paying for it twice. Right. And so, that would be wrong because the sin debt is already canceled.

If it's canceled, it doesn't exist.

Is that correct? If it's canceled. If you do not allow the atoning blood to cleanse you, whether it's paid for or not, you aren't availing yourself of it.

Okay. Is it canceled at the cross or is it not canceled at the cross?

Well, you have to avail yourself of it. It is canceled, but you have to avail yourself. You have to jump into that river.

So, it's canceled at the cross. So, if it's canceled for somebody, that means a sin. Debt doesn't exist, right?

Well, it exists until you die. How can it exist? How can it exist if it's been canceled at the cross?

Because you have to receive it. Who said? It's a free gift. How can it exist if it's canceled at the cross? If it's wiped out, blotted away, it doesn't exist anymore, it's gone. Well, that certificate exists.

You have to receive it. It doesn't say that. It doesn't say that. It says that he canceled the certificate of debt at the cross. Jesus canceled it. For believers. I agree. Just for believers, not for everybody.

That's limited atonement. Okay, you trapped me. Yes, I did. You see, let me back up and help you out a little bit. So, sin is breaking the law of God, 1 John 3, 4. It's a transgression of the law. And Jesus said, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Forgive us our debts. That's Matthew 6, 12. But in the parallel, in Luke 11, 4, he says, forgive us our sins. So, Jesus equates sin with debt, with legal debt, okay?

In John 19, 30, Jesus said on the cross, it is finished. And in the Greek, in the Greek, that is tetelestai. And that tetelestai is the Greek word, which means, let's see if I can get the right thing in here.

That's good. Tetelestai means, okay, back on track. That's what Jesus said on the cross. Tetelestai is a word that has been found written in different pens, different handwriting, at the bottom of ancient papyri tax receipts, signifying a tax debt had been paid in full.

That's what Jesus said on the cross. He was talking about the legality of sin having been paid full on the cross. Jesus equated sin with legal debt. Sin is the transgression of the law and debts can be transferred.

So, if I were to go to a restaurant and forgot my wallet, which has never happened before, and a friend of mine were to pay my debt, then I'm gonna put people on mute here until we're ready to talk a little bit more because the background noise.

Then that debt has been transferred to somebody else and they were able to pay it. And so, the sin debt was transferred to Christ. He bore our sin in his body on the cross, 1 Peter 2 .24. So, what we would say is that Jesus canceled that certificate of debt at the cross.

It is not canceled when you believe, it's canceled at the cross. And it can only have been canceled, oh, you have to go, okay. It can only have been canceled for the elect, the ones given to him by the father.

Because if he canceled it for everybody, then nobody can go to hell because there's no sin debt to be held against them. If someone says, well, you got to accept it. Accept what? Accept what? The sin debt doesn't exist.

You're not accepting a non-existent thing. It's not a gift. It just doesn't exist. And so, if I were to go to a restaurant and pay someone's bill, I go behind their back, so to speak, and I pay their bill and they don't know that.

And then they find out that I paid their bill and they say, I don't accept that. Who cares? It's already paid. They can't unpay it, whether they receive it or not is irrelevant, has no bearing on the legality.

So when Jesus canceled the certificate of debt, he did it at the cross. Logically speaking, it could only have been for the elect, the ones given to him by the father. That way, Jesus did not waste his blood.

The blood of Christ is so powerful. It's sufficient to cleanse everybody, of course. But the legal aspect of that is what Jesus did on the cross. You can see that in the text now. Charlie put it in. Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us,.

And he's taking it out of them. You're referring to the whosoevers.

No, the whosoever of John 3, 16 doesn't exist in the Greek. Maybe Charlie put John 3, 16 there. Okay, so what does it say in the Greek? It says, for God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that all the believing one.

Would not perish. Okay, so that lines up with your elect thing.

Yeah, it does. And the word for whosoever or whoever is the Greek word hos, omicron sigma. It's a rough breathing mark, omicron sigma. Or is it omega? Omega sigma. And it's not there in the Greek, but it does exist in the New Testament.

Okay. And so we would say that the whosoever, and people are, you know, whoever believes, but they believe because God grants that they believe. Philippians 1, 29. Okay, I get it. That's our position.

You know, you have to agree with it, but that's, it's pretty logical. It's pretty, pretty biblical. Let me get Chris back going here. Hey, Chris, Michael. Hey, buddy, how are you? How you doing, man? How's it going?

It's going. You're a little over-modulated. So there's just a little breaking up. That means turn your input down just a little bit. If you know how to do that.

If you don't know how, I can tell you how. But where are you from? Okay. I'm in Greensboro, North Carolina. Okay. Have you called, you probably have called the show before, right? Yeah, I've called a couple of times.

I listen to you on the way home every night. So a couple of times I've thrown the phone up and gave you a call.

How you doing? Doing all right. Just having a really nice conversation with Nancy and trying to show why I believe in Limitless Atonement and try not to be mean or attacking. A lot of people are like that.

I used to be. I'm trying not to be like that. Well, you weren't mean to me. What's that? You were not. You were not mean to me. I was not. I can be. I can be obstreperous. You better not. I can be. My wife knows.

She'll go, oh yeah. Yeah, that's right. She knows how it is. But yeah, I still blow it every now and then. So is Andrew Rappaport in the text? He's at the G3 conference, which I wanted to be there. It's in Atlanta, Georgia.

So I didn't get to make it. Finances and stuff like that. But maybe next time we will. So Charlie, you want me to add you in? You can type in yes or no. Or just leave it open for others. Charlie is great.

You guys may know who he is. But a lot of people don't know this. This is the truth. This is absolutely the truth. Charlie, who's here. Charlie is the one who read me the quote back in 1980. We think it was 80 or 71, or 79, but we say 80.

We had a Bible study. I don't know who this guy was. He comes up, we're talking, reads me a quote from Joseph Smith, where Joseph Smith boasted he did more than Jesus to keep a church together. That got me so mad.

That quote that Charlie is the one who read to me is what got me started doing apologetics. So you can blame Charlie. That's right. He blames me all the time. That's right. That's right. He's the one.

I still remember that. He came up and I remember thinking, who is this guy? Why is, what's he talking about? And he read, I went, what? He got my attention. And I ripped the paper out of his head. I don't know who this guy was.

Rip it. Who said that? And he said, Joseph Smith. I go, well, who is that? And he said, he's the founder of Mormonism. And I said, well, Mormons are Christians, but this guy is not. And he said, no, Mormons are not Christians.

I said, what? Why not? So he's the first one to teach me about Mormonism. Wow. Now they're gonna come after me.

What's that? Now everybody's gonna come after me for what I did. That's right.

I'm gonna post your address. That's right. Don't blame me and blame Charlie. So Charlie and I did a lot of ministry work together and we still, how long have we known each other? Well, since at least 1980.

It's gotta be 40 years. Yeah. It's 40 years or 41, because I think it might've been in 79, but I don't know. I just say that I started in 1980. Whenever the calendar changes each year, I just add a year.

So that's what I do. So that's good. So Charlie's the one. Charlie's the one. All right, Chris. So, hey, buddy, you got a tulip shirt on. Yeah, you know it.

That's it. It's a good conversation starter too. When I go out and someone says, what's that mean? You know, and it actually explains it down below. Gives the five points where I can bring it up to them and do my best to explain it to them and share the gospel with them.

So I like to wear stuff that starts a conversation up.

Well, you know, I used to have a shirt that said, literally, ask me your toughest question about God and the Bible. And I wore it for a year or two, off and on. Only one person ever asked me a question.

I answered it in 20 seconds and that was it, done. They knew who you were. Well, you know, it doesn't help when you walk around with your chest out like this, ask me a question. So maybe that was part of the problem, I don't know.

But, yeah, that shirt was awesome. I need some more shirts. I want to start a T-shirt business too. I want to start it. Yeah, I do. And trying to do what I got to do to survive and all that kind of stuff.

But I get a lot of ideas for T-shirts, T-shirt sayings. I've been working on them off and on for a few years. And things like, you know, www .karm .org, karm and get it, you know, just stupid things.

And what was it? Well, I got a file someplace, I got to unearth it. But at any rate. So if you guys want to join, that's a StreamYard link. You can just do that. We can have up to six people in at a time.

And so there you go. I was hoping the Roman Catholics would come in and we could have a discussion. I was hoping the baptismal regenerationists would come in. Can I teach you guys about baptism?

Some stuff I've been learning. Yeah, go for it. We probably disagree, so I'm listening. That's all right, that's all right.

Let me do this. I don't have it all worked out. Wait a minute, let me get my notes. Maybe my notes might help. I'm developing, you know how I have outlines on Calvinism? I'm doing outlines on Catholicism, outlines on baptism and things like that.

And I'm still formulating some ideas about all of this because it's like, okay, all right, I see that. What does it mean? And some things like that. And as you guys probably know, I believe Jesus was sprinkled in his baptism.

I do, and so you don't have to believe that, but that's what I believe. And so I was doing some studying and let me get to the verses and scroll down here. Okay, where are they? Come on, I got a lot of verses.

There we go. Yeah, I need to get to Acts 1 .5. And I'll post that in here. And then we'll talk about this a little bit. This is what Acts 1 .5 says. I don't know if you guys can see the chat text at all.

You guys able to see that? No. I did a couple times. Okay, what I'll do then, the problem is that if I paste it and then I anchor it. Oh, there it is. He did it, yeah, Charlie did it. Then it scrolls up and we lose it.

So he's great, he's great. Okay, for John baptized with water, but you'll be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. What does it mean to be baptized with the Holy Spirit? Now we can talk about the effects of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues and things like that.

But I mean, in the sense of the Old Testament speaks of the Holy Spirit being poured. And there's plenty of places where that is the case. And for example, I'll just post some in here and then maybe Charlie can make him go into text there while I continue to post a few.

And you can see as we go through some what the Bible is saying, because it says he will do this. And let's see, here we go. Oh, is it working? Yeah, and so there's that one. Let's see, you can see it's number four is out of my outline notes.

So let me just go to number two. Come on, go to number two. There we go, oops. Oh, I gotta undo that one and do that one. Okay, there we go. So I went to number three, it could have moved. For I will pour, I will have poured out my spirit on the house of Israel, all right?

And this one says, I will pour out my spirit on your offspring. This one says that I will pour out my spirit on all mankind, quoted in Acts 2 .17. All right, so we can understand that it means to pour out.

That's what it means when the spirit's here, the Old Testament prophecy. So when we go to Acts 1 .5, let me get back over to that. When we go to Acts 1 .5, it says this, okay? Now the question that is, when it says, baptized with the Holy Spirit, that's what the baptism is that was spoken of, the pouring forth of the spirit.

So would you agree with me that the second word, baptized there, deals with the pouring forth, pouring upon? Yeah. Makes sense? Yep. Mr. Tulip over here, his total depravity is showing, and he does not want to give in, I can tell.

But so I'm razzing him, but it's worth it. So it does say that, I'm like, okay, I'm thinking about that, all right. So if that's the case, and let me show you some other stuff here, okay? Let's see, I'll show you this.

This is Acts 2 .33, okay? These are different parts of different things in my outline, which is why you have the numbers in the front, like number one being different. Acts 2 .33, the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

That's the speaking in tongues, the movement of the Holy Spirit. That proves that the Old Testament prophecy of pouring forth is what's happening. And we know from Acts 1 .5, John baptized with water, he'll baptize you with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

So I believe that the baptism with the Holy Spirit must mean the Holy Spirit was poured upon them, of pouring forth. I don't see how anybody can get out of that. Now, along with that, let's see if I got my notes in here.

Hold on a sec, whoops. Okay, now I'm gonna put some verses in and I'll highlight them. So here's what the Bible says in some stuff. Okay, I hope that's big enough, it might be too big. Let's see if it shows, whoops.

There we go. Then the men who were designated by name arose, took the captives, they clothed all their naked ones from the spoil and they gave them clothes and sandals, fed them with drink and anointed them with oil.

Okay, now the anointed with oil, what does that mean? Does it mean they were buried in oil or does it mean they took oil and applied it to them? Poured out all over them. Poured on, sprinkled on, whatever it would be.

All right, I agree. Let's try a shorter one. So this, come on, get in there. Takes a bit for it to go through all the stuff it does. There we go. Then I bathed you with water, washed off your blood from you with anointing oil.

Now the bathed with water, then I bathed you with water. Does that mean water was applied to them or they were immersed? Well, we did context and we could see, but look at this. This is Mark, not Mark, Micah 6 .15.

It says this, you will sow, but you will not reap. You will tread the olive, but will not anoint yourself with oil. And the grapes, but you will not drink wine. So anointing, we can see many places where anointing means to apply something to somebody.

That's how it's used. Water is used to anoint. In fact, you know what I just realized? I can share my screen. I'm going to do that, all right? That might just make it better. Let's see. Share screen. Which one am I going to do?

Not that one. Hold on, I got to look at it. And here we go. Can you guys, you guys see that, see the screen? Yeah. Okay, that makes it so much easier. All right, so let me undo that, I'll hide that. All right, so notice what it says here.

For example, James 5 .14. It says, is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders in the church and they would pray over him, anointing him with oil. Mark 6 .13 above, they were casting out demons and were anointing with oil.

That means to apply the oil to somebody. Look at this. Exodus 29 .4, then you shall bring Aaron and his sons to the doorway of the tent of meeting and wash them with water. Does that mean they apply the water to them or they immersed in water in a doorway?

They were washed and they were anointed with, so to speak. The water was applied to them in different places. All right. Notice what it says here in Exodus 30 .20. Is it big enough on the screen for you guys to see I can make it bigger?

If I wore my glasses. Well, here, let me do this. How's that? That bigger, better? Yes. Okay, I can do that. And I can make it even bigger. There we go. Now it's ominous. Good. All right. Oh, when they were entered the tent of the meeting, they shall wash with water.

When they enter the tent of the meeting, this can only mean the water was applied to them. Look at Mark 1 .8 says, I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. I think that we can make a strong case that the baptize with water means the water is applied to them.

No, not me. Okay, all right, okay. What I think you're doing, though,.

Is you're joining up water baptism with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is a subsequent experience.

Well, but Mark 1 .8, it says I baptize you with water, but he'll baptize you with the Holy Spirit. That's right there together.