Is the Book of Daniel the guide to modern politics?

All right, here we are with Dr. Mark Clark. I'm so excited to have a new guest on. Mark, I'm so excited to talk to you.

I'm so excited to get into our topic today. Today, Dr. Mark Clark is joining us. He is an emeritus professor of national security.

Oh, gosh, I already screwed it up. We practiced so much. I'll let you go ahead and introduce yourself. Yeah, emeritus professor of political science and national security studies.

I did that for 34 years. So, yep. Amazing. Well, it's pretty cool how we got connected through Dr.

Hugh Ross, who hasn't even come on yet, and yet here we are talking before him. But I think that the topic today,

I mean, once we spoke, you talked about your previous experience in political science, national security.

We talked about UFOs. But one of the highlighted factors was your work with Daniel. And I think

I hadn't even read Daniel at that point. I read the book in a day. It was obviously very short, but just so enthralling.

I never got bored, which is typically what drives me away from the Bible as I start losing my train of thought. And I just thought this is such a perfect opportunity for us to dive into maybe a book that a lot of early

Christians overlook. I mean, once I read it, I was talking about it to everybody. But how did you go from national security, let's back up, to studying the

Bible? Tell me about your story. So it goes back a little bit further.

I became a Christian in high school, but it was with the Jesus People movement. If you see the movie or seen the,

I think it's an HBO or Netflix production, Jesus Revolution. Yeah, yeah, I heard about that. Yeah. So they spread out and they went around and they spread the gospel.

It took with me, which surprised me, I didn't expect that, but it didn't stick, at least for a while.

And mainly because I thought it was more of an emotional high at the time. And once the emotional kind of high, the two to three weeks later, kind of wore off,

I thought, well, okay. And I went about my life, but that was probably sophomore in high school.

And then I went in the Marine Corps. And while I was in the Marines, God kind of confronted me with the fact that although I was really physically fit, really good,

I would get promoted all the time at every place. But there was a point at which

I got really interested in the Bible. There was a guy that came on ship. I was stationed in Japan, Yokosuka, Japan for two years.

And there was a guy who was very studious about the Bible. And he studied from the ancient languages, Hebrew and Greek. And I got fascinated by that and I started doing it.

But one of the guys that he came on with by this time had become pretty anti -Christian.

And he just looked at me, he goes, are you reading that? And I won't say the right, the word he said, but junk too. And I said, nah,

I'm just looking at it. Boom, turn off the light. And God held up a mirror to me and said, you're brave on the outside, but you're a moral coward on the inside.

And it was like, oh my, it stunned me. It stunned me. What do you mean he held up a mirror, like a voice in your head?

Yeah, literally, you know, all of a sudden, I thought, yeah, and I could see myself as a coward. That's what it felt like.

And I thought, oh, it's just so discrepant. Yeah, so discrepant with my image of myself.

So that began a process. And I actually turned that light back on. I said, I guess I am. And he just looked at me and shook his head.

But I knew... I actually take it back. Go ahead. Yeah. But you know, it's a process.

As you know, as you become a Christian, it takes a while. And I was in the Marines and there were a lot of people where I was that were pro -Christian.

They weren't anti -Christian, they're indifferent to it mainly, but some were very anti -Christian. So you kind of had to really learn how to defend your faith and grow.

So that's how I got started. But it was being in the Marine Corps that led me to be interested in international politics.

And so I went out, got out after Marines, went into college, studied ancient history, and then went on to study international relations and then landed this job in national security.

So what's fascinating to me is I learned international politics, foreign affairs, national security,

Russian language, all these things, but I didn't quite know how to understand politics.

And Daniel became a very fascinating character to me. Here was someone that was taken, and we'll talk more about it in a little bit, but here was someone taken out of his home, taken to a foreign land.

Everything is contrary to what he grew up with and believed in, and yet he thrived politically. And so I became fascinated with the study of Daniel, and I began teaching it at church.

And what I found when I taught the book of Daniel, it changed me. It changed me in a number of ways that I can talk about, but it really changed other people as well.

They began to have a higher view of God's sovereign control over history. Even though we all kind of acknowledge

God as sovereign, it's an attribute, what does that mean for me personally? What does that mean for me politically?

What does it mean for international politics? And if you think about what's going on in the world today, China's on the move,

Russia's on the move, Iran, North Korea, battles are going on, war with Hamas and Israel, the

US seems to be diminishing in power. How do we think about that? And so Daniel captivated me because he was someone that lived in the middle of it and succeeded in a foreign empire, two empires,

Babylon and then Persia. And so that actually, like I said, it changed me in the sense that you mentioned

Hugh Ross, he's president, CEO, now he's retired of that, but of reasons to believe.

And he asked me early on in my career to be his co -host on his television show.

And I think I told you this line, he was trained in physics, astronomy, mathematics, quantum mechanics.

I was trained in international politics, national security, Russian language. So I consider myself, but the point was he would get questions or he would develop ideas and show how it related to faith.

And then I would have to be able to repeat it so that the audience would understand it. So I called myself the intellectual crash dummy for Hugh Ross because quantum mechanics,

I mean, I was able to handle it and manage it and give it back. But after that, driving home,

I was like, I could not repeat it. It was so alien to the way we think. Wow. And you also, so tell me more about the

TV show, because you guys talked about some pretty hot topics. I mean, UFOs is a pretty hot topic.

How did that play into the biblical conversations? Sure. That's interesting. Actually, Hugh had been in ministry as well as teaching and as well as astronomy.

He eventually became the evangelist at our church in Sierra Madre. And he would go out to groups and visit people.

And of course, the subject of UFOs would come up all the time. The occult, UFOs, occultic things. We eventually co -wrote a book together on that topic.

And this was in 2002. We didn't name it this, but this is what the publisher named it, Lights in the

Sky and Little Green Men, a rational Christian perspective on UFOs and extraterrestrials.

So I was asked to come in because he could talk about the science. Is it possible, you know, space travel?

We brought in Ken Samples, who really knows the occult. He knows the paranormal. He used to research for Walter Martin, Bible Answer Man.

And I was brought in because I knew the government and I knew military stuff. Is the military hiding things?

Are they reverse engineering technology? So that was our, that's how we got to write that. And of course, then we've done and published a number of blog pieces on it as it continues to evolve.

So that was our collaboration back in the day. So early 90s, I was his co -host, early 2000,

I wrote that. And then last six years now, I'm called a scholar, part member of the scholar community for reasons to believe.

I think we have over 200 PhDs, THDs, JDs, people like that, MDs that are a member of this group.

It's an amazing movement that Dr. Ross is starting. I'm so excited that he's introduced me to you and the future people that we're already meeting just because his messages.

So I'm in academia. I believe in God. There's no reason like my intellect to this level can't be translated in understanding

God to a certain level. And I just, I hope that we can share this with more people because I agree that it's at such a high level, but I've also met a lot of academia and a lot of academics who are very secular and they kind of, it diminishes that spiritual aspect of learning.

It only goes to a certain depth. And then once it hits God, it kind of like, I don't know, bottoms out.

You know, it's interesting you say that. I'd say there's more people in academia who are Christian than you would know.

Really? The anti -Christian voice, the secular anti -Christian voice comes from academia, but that's how it trickles down to society.

But there's, I know in my department alone, there's four of us, three are evangelical, one's

Catholic. Maybe there's a fourth or fifth now, I should say. Oh, that's such good news.

Oh yeah. And that's just in our department. In math department, there are more as a percentage of the department.

Yeah. But they're not, we tend not to be as outspoken as radical about our beliefs.

We tend to be, and I think it's in part, you know, first Peter 3 .15 tells us, commands us, always be prepared to give a defense for the hope that's in you, yet with gentleness, reverence, respect, and a clear conscience.

And so our approach is not to be confrontational. I mean, some are, some

Christians are, let's just face it. Some Christians are pretty obnoxious. You know, they hit you over the head with a 98 pound Schofield reference

Bible, but that wins no one to Jesus Christ. So that's not what we do.

So anyway, I would say there's more out there than you know, but you're right. I would say predominantly the dominant narrative, both in academia and in our culture is naturalism and non -religion, non -religious,

I should say. So that's, and it has been since the enlightenment and it's gotten progressively more so that way.

Yeah. That's really positive news. And before we get too far, UFOs, do you think that aliens are real and on earth and contacting us?

Maybe I'm one. No, I'm kidding. That's a complex subject.

What I would say is the vast majority of UFO sightings, the vast majority of UFOs, our thesis or our hypothesis is that we have what's called the

R UFO, the residual. What I mean by that, what we mean by that is 99 .5

% of everything that's considered a UFO will eventually be an IFO. That is it'll become identified with enough time and research.

So it's either manmade stuff, you know, military secrets or it's a spoofing of sensors or it's natural occultations in the atmosphere or it's balloons.

I mean, the Chinese spy balloon a year ago, remember that? But there's a variety of things. Drones now are crowding the airspace.

So long story short, I do not believe aliens from another planet are visiting us.

However, we are being visited, but they're not friendly and I'll leave it at that.

So it's for another time. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. That's such a great place to end.

Okay. Let's get in because if we don't stop now, I won't. That's amazing.

Okay. Wow. I'm intrigued. Let's get into Daniel. So I always like to approach characters in the

Bible from a very human approach of who were they at that time? What was going on in the world at that time?

What was he doing? Where was he at in society? Let's humanize him in a 2024 context.

Would he be lower middle class, upper middle class? What kind of job would he be working? Just so we can kind of put ourselves in his shoes.

Help me paint the picture. Okay. Well, it's highly likely that Daniel was a descendant of Hezekiah.

We see it in Isaiah 39. Hezekiah invites, at this time, this is pre -Nebuchadnezzar's

Babylon. Okay. This is a hundred years before. There are some envoys that come to Judah and Hezekiah, the king, allows him to visit the temple.

And it's really in violation of the temple laws. And he's showing the wealth. He's proud of what's happening.

And Hezekiah was otherwise a very righteous king. One of the last of the righteous kings of Israel or of Judah.

But as a punishment, Isaiah tells him, God promises that because of what you did, some of your descendants will be taken captive to Babylon.

And along with that, a lot of the temple treasure was. And that happened in 605 BC. Daniel was taken, likely he and his three friends were taken in 605

BC. Let me give you a little bit of, go ahead. Did you have a question there? I don't want to interrupt.

Were they just them or was it like a whole mass of people were moved out of the city and they were included?

It was likely just those four, the early stages. Really? That's 605. But in 597, there's another migration.

Now it's a lot more people. In 586, there's a bigger one because Nebuchadnezzar gets fed up with Judah's rebellion and comes and conquers

Judah. Again, destroying Jerusalem and the temple and takes a lot of people back.

Now, why I say that is there's a couple of major players, political players internationally going on.

Around 722, there was this big empire up to the north called Assyria, A -S -S -R -Y -A -I -A.

Assyria was this massive empire and in 722, it conquered the northern kingdom of Israel, the 10 tribes.

So there's only two left. And it deported all those. What Assyria's policy was to take people from that, from the conquered territories and redistribute them throughout their empire.

And that way they would never launch a rebellion. Babylon was different. When they conquered in 605, they, along with the

Medes, destroyed the last remnants of Assyrian empire in 620, probably about the time

Daniel was born. But Babylon had a little bit different policy. They only took people they needed for work projects.

So they took them in small increments. And the reason for this makes sense. If you think about mass migrations,

I mean, we have this problem in the United States and in Europe, around the world. You can't house them.

You can't bring them into society very effectively. Babylon decided to do it in very small increments so they could assimilate into the culture, into the society, have jobs, work on projects.

So Babylon was a different policy than Assyria. They also did the same thing to prevent rebellion, but they were more selective about how they did it.

So Babylon came into Judah and took a few people to start assimilating because they wanted, they needed them for specific projects to help boost their economy.

But Babylon came in to Judah, took a few people, and then later took a lot more people.

Correct. As Judah continued his rebellion. So not just Judah, but it was also

Edom and other surrounding territories. So in the whole Levant, yeah, in the whole

Levant, all the way into Egypt, probably took some Egyptians. And this is what's interesting about Daniel and his friends.

They would have been just captives like all these other people. And what Babylon wanted to do, at least in this first round, at least that's what the text of the

Bible says. We don't know outside of that. It could have taken more, but the only four that are mentioned are

Daniel and his three friends. So they take them and they introduce them to the court of Babylon.

But let's think about what happened. Daniel was probably around 15. The reason why we surmise that, we don't know.

He could have been 13. He could have been 18. But Daniel continues in power until about 539, 538

BC. So he was an 80 plus year old man by the time he ends his time and he's writing the book of Daniel.

So he couldn't have been too old by this time. So you asked earlier, would he have been employed? Probably not.

He was still just attained to maturity. And he was stripped from his family. Stripped from his family, his culture, his religion, forced march 900 miles, given a pagan name, which would have been anathema to a religious

Jew. And then, and this is harsh, a lot of commentators shy away from talking about it.

He was probably emasculated. So his, his testes would have been cut off. This is typical of ancient empires that when they put people in the court, they stripped them of their manhood so that they couldn't interfere with the harems and things like that.

Now, as you can imagine, that would create a lot of trauma. And I know we'll get into that a little bit later, but even without the emasculation part, which we don't know for sure, but it doesn't say in the

I think losing your family is like pretty bad trauma. Yeah, there's a lot going on here.

So, and I think that's one of the things I would say about the book of Daniel, if you want to read it, read it, try to read it, not like a kid's story, but like a grownup story, a real historical character, someone that suffered very severely.

And yet he flourished while his time was there. Yeah. And, and so he and his three friends, their forced march, what

I think is that how he managed to, and the reason why I say, I think he avoided the trauma of captivity is that we do not see evidence anywhere else in the whole book of Daniel that he displays the kind of character or behavior that's consistent with someone who experiences trauma.

Trauma is typically defined as someone who believes the past is an ever -present reality.

They're a victim to it. Victim. They're still a victim, right? They haven't somehow taken agency over. That victim mentality of what was me, this happened to me rather than a victor and I survived it.

Right. So let me give you a quote from Psalm 137. It's one of the more interesting

Psalms in the Bible. And this is, this, the Psalmist here is at least indicated in the text that I've read.

He's likely back in Jerusalem. So he's already been released and yet the past still haunts him. And he says this, by the rivers of Babylon, we sat and we wept when we remembered

Zion. There in the poplars, we hung our harps, for there our captors asked us to sing for songs of joy.

Our tormentors demanded songs of joy. They said, sing to us one of the songs of Zion. But how can we sing the songs of the

Lord in a foreign land? If I forget you, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill.

May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you. If I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy.

Remember, O Lord, what the Edomites did in the day Jerusalem fell. Tear it down, they cried, tear it down to its foundation.

And this is true. Edom were mortal enemies of Judah at this time. O daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us.

He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. This is in the Bible.

Major revenge. Yeah. This is someone who's living as if the past is still an ever -present reality and harbors revenge.

We do not see this from Daniel anywhere in his life. Nor do we see it from his three friends.

So there's something unique going on with Daniel and his friends. I don't think it's just because he was a royal, you know, descendant of royalty, but he might've had something going on in his life that was, he had a lodestar, like he had a north star.

And in fact, my thesis from my study of Daniel, and maybe for our talk here today, is that because Daniel led an exemplary life of faith during historic political events, because he committed to God's kingdom purposes for his day, because he did, he models how we may live exemplary lives of faith by committing ourselves to God's kingdom purposes for our day, even in our troubled political times, not just domestic, but international.

So I think he's a, you know, the book of Daniel is not a didactic book.

Have you heard of that term? It means a teaching book. It's not prescriptive. It's not teaching you, it's not giving you commands.

This is how you should behave. It's an example of how we might want to think about behaving. So it's a, does that make sense?

Kind of like Job, would you say? Yes. Although there's some, yeah. And you have to be careful with Job because there's some things they say, right.

And some, not Job, but his friends, there's some very good things they say are right, but they have a very different perspective than Job.

So. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great way to pick up Daniel is kind of, you know, if I were to live a good Christian life, this is what it would look like because of the way that Daniel just like lets the governance of God take over every aspect.

Like with trauma, he didn't fall victim to that. He, he overcame that when it came to, you know, his political relationships, he governed it so, so I want to say

Christianly, but you know, like God focused. And even with the way that he spoke to people in the face of people trying to throw him in a den of lions, he still had so much respect and gentleness and love and patience and peace in him.

And that's, as you can imagine, that's really hard, especially when you're, you're being abused, you know, the way he was.

What's interesting to me is Daniel didn't take his stand. He didn't fight Babylon on anything except he wanted to remain set apart.

And that's why he in Daniel chapter one asked for this restrictive diet of vegetables and then he's brought into other things.

So he, he develops this great respect for authority. Yeah. You know, the scriptures in the

Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh, that's the ancient literature, the Tanakh rebellion is considered something like a sin of divination.

It's considered evil. If a child rebels against their parents and is a consistent unrepentant rebellious person, that could be considered a candidate for stoning at some point.

So Daniel shows high regard for, you would imagine his family, though we don't have a record of it, but he certainly does a

Babylonian authority. Who captured him. He has high regard for. Yeah.

And we have trouble respecting our own president who's never even met us. Yes. And yeah,

I, a lot of our political authority, not just our president. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so when

I approach a book, like the book of Daniel, and I think in our prep preparatory discussion one of the things that you asked was how, how do we, how do we read the book, like a book of Daniel or any book?

I begin to ask a series of questions. And I always, I always read even, even, even if it's apart from the

Bible, I ask with a series of questions. What can I learn from this? What new things can I gain? How can I, what can

I infer that would be useful for my life? But with this one, especially with the book of Daniel, how would

I have reacted to what he went through? If I lived in his sandals, if I walked in his sandals.

Yeah. How did he survive the trauma of captivity? That one is very interesting to me. How did he succeed?

How did he flourish in a very alien environment? I mean, a foreign land that was pagan. Yeah. So it's those kinds of questions you can ask about any of the books of the

Bible. You know, the, probably the closest person he resembles is Joseph, who was sent into captivity in Egypt and flourish and then save the family later on.

So yeah, there's some really good things from the book of Daniel. And I think that even just like jumping right into the, the book, you know, in Daniel one,

I think, you know, I think that he governs very well. I think that he survived trauma very well, but I don't think that we should overlook that his gifts that came out and kind of led to his success of being able to interpret dreams without being told the dream itself or surviving lions.

Essentially because he appealed and was obedient to God at the beginning, they tried giving him, let's say they tried giving him fast food and alcohol and beer.

And he said, I don't want to eat fast food and beer. I just want water and veggies. I'm going to appeal to you. The first appeal in Daniel one 11, it says

Daniel one 17 to these four young men, God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning.

And Daniel could understand visions and dreams of all kinds. So that knowledge and that ability that caused his success wouldn't have happened.

Had he not been obedient and submissive to God and what God asked at the forefront.

Yeah, I would agree. Let me, let me, let me go back one more thing though, just before we get into that, because I don't know that we can understand his giftings apart from his, what was

God's purposes, God's kingdom purposes in his day. Jeremiah 25 writes about it.

If you go to, when you go to Babylon, he writes a letter, this is a little bit later, but he had prophesied the conquest by Babylon.

Daniel knew that Judah was being disciplined by Babylon for their rebellion against God. Oh, he knew that.

And then Isaiah had this great, uh, kind of still weird to think of countries as people being disciplined.

Yes, absolutely. Especially God's covenant people. Okay. And the old

Testament and the Tanakh God's covenant people were Israel and then Judah.

And then since the new Testament, since Jesus Christ, it is then Christians. And there's not one nation where we don't associate.

In fact, we're called a nation of priests. Now we're not a nation of kings, right? So when we punish a nation, it's the nation of Christians, not a physical.

It's actually Christianity. It's Christians themselves. Wow. That's a total mind shift.

Okay. Well, let me, let me, let me just throw this in because there's this remarkable prophecy, but it's a kind of a statement of God's kingdom purposes for, for Judah.

And this is where I think Daniel, uh, latched onto this, particularly maybe on his trek to Babylon, maybe before, certainly by the time he gets there,

Isaiah 49, six says this, it is too small a thing for you to be my servant, to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept.

And I will make you a light to the Gentiles that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.

Now that was for Judah, but Daniel, I think took it to heart because if we look at all of his stuff that what he does, he lives by this.

It's sort of his version of Matthew 28, 19, go out and make disciples around the world.

And then the end will come. This is their version of it. And Daniel exemplifies this because everyone that comes in contact with Daniel recognizes he serves the sovereign

God. Yep. And he makes him. So he, God made him a light to the

Gentiles in Daniel chapter nine. He does one of the appeals that we won't talk about, but he appeals to God for the restoration of Israel.

And that begins the process. Cyrus, the King who conquers Babylon starts writing an edict that restores

Judah to its homeland. And it takes about a hundred years for it to complete. It doesn't ever fully complete.

Many people, many Jews still continue to live in Babylon and actually scattered even Eastern, Eastwards from there.

But I, but I think that's a key thing for Daniel. If that's his lodestar, if that's his frame of reference, then he decides everything around that.

Which is how we should. Jesus himself said, seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you.

I think that's what I love so much about Daniel as like, I can, I'm just going to call myself an early Christian because there's so much,

I don't know, you know, I've been a Christian for years, but still, I don't know this. And the whole Bible to me, it seems like is like, do this, don't do this, do this, don't do this.

And then there's Daniel. That's like, if you want to know what that looks like, here's a perfect example. And that's what makes Daniel so good is it's, this is how you handle

God at the centerpiece in trauma, in relationships, in difficulty, conflict, government, your job.

Like, how should you be a good Christian at work? Read Daniel, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

So let's get to Daniel chapter one and we'll talk about that. So yeah. So Daniel one, he's confronted by this, you know, this fact that he's, he's going to have this diet and it's the choice food from the

King's table. Now, a lot of modern commentators who are

Christian look back and they interpret that to the prism of the New Testament. And because Paul talks about it, you know, because to the

Jew, eating pig meat was anathema, liturgical laws. And, and then there's this idea that, well, we, it's okay now, but you know, we don't really know what the court food was consistent of.

It could have been that we don't know when kosher or koshering came about in Jewish history, but it might've begun here in, it might've happened before the, according to Levitical laws, but it probably certainly happened after this.

Now, what's interesting about this is that wine is not considered against the

Bible. It's okay. So why did Daniel choose to eat vegetables and no wine?

So part of it is, and if you notice, he tells his leader, let me not defile myself.

The way he phrases it, it's brilliant. It's not you're defiling me. He's not putting it in an offensive way.

He said, let me not defile myself and ask for them to test. And this is where I think he shows great amount of respect.

He allows the guard to judge whether he looks fair or fatter is the way that King James puts it than the others.

And he and his friends, they won't pray about it and they commit to it. And they looked healthier than everyone else.

Now, I think what's really interesting, certainly wine was not prohibited. Perhaps there was pig serve, but really the key thing to me is in the old

Testament and the ancient world, and in many parts of the world to this day, when you go to someone's house, when someone invites you in and gives you their food and you share a meal, you identify with them.

You're saying I'm one with you. And something like this with Daniel, he would have been identifying as a

King's man. So how do you remain separate? He didn't reject being called

Belteshazzar, a pagan name. He didn't reject being forcibly captured. He didn't reject if he was emasculated, but he changes the thing and he allows them to judge him.

So it's a very respectful way in which he does this. He doesn't put his foot down and say,

I'm not going to do that and draw a boundary. He more so says, Oh gosh, how would you put this?

He more so says, I'll let you do this, but let's try a different way in a way that he finds a middle ground really, really well.

Yes. And that's the brilliance of Daniel. This is why in Ezekiel, he's called one of the top three, most wise and righteous people in the

Bible. He finds a very practical solution that alleviates the guard's fears.

Because if the guard sees Daniel suffering, the King does, the guard will be flicked to death. So he has respect for the guard, for the whole system there.

And he allows the guard to make the tests. And that way it elevates God's sovereignty. It shows that God can take care of Daniel.

He doesn't need the King's choice food. Now think about that. We're called to be separate part of, in, but not of this world.

This is the example where Daniel does that. He lives in Babylon, but he's not of Babylon. He's not part of the culture.

He's going to be seen as separate the whole time he lives. In fact, if we get, when we get to, um, and Daniel chapter six, the, the, when he gets tossed in the lion's den, his practices to pray publicly faces towards the temple and in Jerusalem and praise publicly three times a day.

Um, he remains separate and no one can accuse him except for his faith. That's another thing that we should be doing.

It shouldn't be our work ethic that gets us in trouble. It shouldn't be our obnoxiousness. In other words, we're, we're not as Christians and Daniel models us to put stumbling blocks in front of people's faith.

But if they reject us, they reject us because of our faith. And that's okay. Cause that's where God, you know,

Jesus himself said, blessed are you when you're persecuted for my namesake or for righteousness and Daniel was on several occasions.

Yeah. He really lets God kind of do the talking here that he says, I'm going to do this thing that you don't agree with that will have consequences.

But yet my faith is in a God that will deliver me from those consequences. If it's in a line with God, which it is,

I mean, everything he's doing is aligned with God. So which is why he survives and has faith in that and doesn't get killed in many different ways.

Yeah. So he doesn't, he doesn't die on this hill as they would say. In other words, he picks the battles and he does it with wisdom and he's very respectful and he, and that's the key.

He respects even these pagans commanders because they're real human beings.

And that goes back to the old Testament. We're all created in the Imago Dei that the image of God and we all have eternal destiny.

So we have to pay attention. Everyone should have a very high regard for other human beings, including those who persecute you.

You know, I think it's like the most gentle way that you can, shout from the mountaintops that you're

Christian. It's so gentle. And I think that when we read this, at least as my perception of it is that to be a passionate shouting from the mountaintops

Christian that requires being provocative and overly passionate and almost aggressive.

And he doesn't do any of those things while he is still being set apart and putting himself apart.

And yeah, like even we'll get into the dreams and just where that got him, you know, in the most gentle way by him just remaining faithful to God and not shaking his finger in anybody's face, he was given an amazing gift.

How crazy is that? Yeah. So he had, he clearly was bright. I mean, even in the first part of the text, they, they, the

Babylonians selected the best and the brightest, and then they tested them. We don't know what that test is, but we, you know, everything, even we go to college, we go in the military, you go into law school, you, you know, you go anywhere you go, you're going to be tested.

Well, they had some version of this, who was the best and the brightest. And yet Daniel and his three friends excelled even more.

So they had a phenomenal work ethic. They studied the language and the literature of the Chaldeans. What at a minimum that means is they studied

Akkadian, cuneiform scriptwriting, which takes years to master, Aramaic, and maybe another language or two.

Plus he had to study the flood charts, the astronomy, the Babylonians were noted for their astronomy, but they tied it in with their astrology.

So how can you as a Jewish, religious, righteous, religious Jew, look at what's good from this and separate it out from what's bad.

That is the pagan influence. So he would have been fantastic student at all these things.

And the scripture says, after the period of three years, when they were tested, they were found 10 times better. That means,

I mean, it's, it's, it's not an exaggeration. It's, it's a, it's a word trick that's used in the, in the

Hebrew. In particular, it's a way of saying they excelled far more than you can imagine, far more than everyone.

They clearly distinguished themselves. And as you said, in addition, God gave them, particularly

Daniel, the ability to see visions and dreams and understand and interpret dreams.

So that sets us up for the second, second appeal he makes. Yes. And his appeal is essentially the

King is saying, I had a dream and it was crazy. The magicians come and tell me what it is. He told the magicians what the dream was.

No, he didn't. That was later. That was in Daniel chapter four. Oh, okay. Two dreams. Yeah. The first one didn't tell them, said, you tell me what my dream was and tell me what it means.

And when they couldn't, he said, I'll kill all the wise men, which included Daniel. Correct. So that's the interesting thing.

Scholars look at it. And if I speak too fast, please slow me down. But scholars have looked at it and they don't really know.

Did, did Nebuchadnezzar have a horrifying dream of the end of his career or end of his empire?

Did he forget the dream? Did he not trust his magicians?

And it's really, there's like five different terms. So they're not just magician, not Magi only, but there's also, there are astrologers, there are divination, there's people that engage in all kinds of customs that the ancient world flourished in, right.

Astrologers, enchanters, sorcerers, astrologers. There's a lot.

Yeah. And when you look up all those words, all of it's anti -biblical. I mean, it's not, you know, it's considered to a

Jew, to a righteous Jew, to a Christian, it's considered anathema. So Daniel has to study all this and be with them.

He's part of it. But, but so anyway, we don't know. Now Nebuchadnezzar, his father died in 605.

This is probably 602, 603. Just real quick. That's kind of interesting that he, a set apart

Christian was still amongst pagans. Yes. And yet he was still able to set himself apart.

Yeah. I think that's a pretty sticky place to be as a Christian. Like you're going to fall victim to sorcery and new age

Christianity. I feel like that's the modern day version of that. How can you be set apart when your friends are worshiping crystals?

You know what I mean? That's where his, he and his friends came. I think having that lodestar of Isaiah 49 .6

was crucial and having his three friends that, and you see in Daniel one, they work together, but in Daniel two, they pray together over that dream.

So what's interesting is Ariok, the commander of the guards, none of the magicians, astrologers, enchanters can answer it.

They say it's, and they set up perfectly for Daniel because they say, there's not a man or a

God that can tell the King what his dream was, let alone interpret it, but tell us the dream and we'll interpret it. And they beseech him.

They're frantic. And Nebuchadnezzar flies into rage. He flies into rage a couple of times.

We see it in Daniel two and Daniel three with his three friends when they're cast into the burning fiery furnace.

I think he has anger management issues, but anyway, Nebuchadnezzar says, all right, go kill all the wise men.

I'm starting over now. Did he do it because he didn't trust them or did he do it? In other words, was he testing his people or did he do it because these were his father's administrators?

Were these the version of the deep state back in his day? And did he want a clean house and bring in his old people in?

We'll never know, but it's fascinating. But Daniel politely asked Ariok, he doesn't say, what did the

King do or challenge the wisdom of it? He goes, what's the urgency of the matter? And that Ariok must have a relationship with Daniel because he tells him what's happening.

And then he requests Eric, let me have some time to go pray and see if we can do this. And you notice he then goes to his friends.

We don't know how long it was. Was it a day, a night? We're not going to be clear on that, but he and his friends go back and they get it.

But what does Daniel do? He comes to Ariok and said, I have a revelation. I can talk to the King.

Ariok goes into Nebuchadnezzar and says, hey, I found someone in the kingdom who can do this for you. And Daniel never corrects him.

So the guy takes credit for Daniel and Daniel doesn't correct him. So that shows more respect, more wisdom for a very young man.

But Daniel says, and I like the way he does this, even to King Nebuchadnezzar, the Lord has, in other words, the

Lord has blessed you with this great vision. And it's of the giant statue and then the rock that destroys all. And it's a section of empires,

Babylon being the top, followed by other empires down through history, including the last one, the rock that's not made by human hands that will destroy all human kingdoms.

So yeah, God gave Daniel the insight into what the dream was and then how to interpret it.

And then he was able to share that with King, but he did it in a gentle, respectful and a way that, yeah, go ahead, please.

And he like right off the bat is, he says, no wise man, enchanter, magician, or diviner can explain to the

King the mystery he has asked about, but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. Right off the bat credit to God.

Yep. And you see that time and again, interpreting the dream. And he's like, it's God. It's not me.

It's God. Yep. Yeah. Cool. Like that is a literal superpower and he's not taking any claim over it.

Think of us. We love Superman. We love all these heroes, Marvel, you know, and they get all cocky and stuff.

Daniel never gets arrogant about what he's been given. He remains humble throughout the whole process.

But if you have an example, yeah. And I think if you have a very high view of God and of God's sovereignty, it will be easier to do that.

You know, it's not something that we, you know, as we become Christian, as we shed the baggage of our culture, as we mature, as we're transformed, as we're formed spiritually, it'll be a while.

I mean, you know, there's going to be rough edges until the day we die. That's part of this spiritual formation process that we're all in.

But Daniel seemed to be right from the get go, at least transformed in a way that I wish I were.

Same. I'm still with my family. I have all the things I was born with and I still do not have the faith of Daniel.

Nope. None of us do. Yeah. So do you want to... Anyway, so I love this because I like the way he does it.

He tells the king, this is what God gave you. He doesn't even take credit. So what's interesting,

Daniel constantly gives glory to God, but doesn't just come out with platitudes. He does that in a real way.

He doesn't walk around waving a placard that says glory to God. He does it in a real, real way.

Yeah. So he tells the dream. Do you want to interpret the dream? I feel like it's pretty self -explanatory when he tells us what the dream is.

Yeah. So what's interesting, it's the first of the apocalypses. Do you know what that term means?

So apocalypse is a terrifying word, but the deeper I get into the study of the apocalypse is kind of the hope for the future.

All it means is revelation. It's a Greek word for revelation. So the apocalypse is a revelation of what will happen.

It's not a prophecy. It differs from a prophecy. Prophecies typically ask people to repent and says, this will happen if you don't do this, or this is going to happen because you haven't repented.

This is a revelation of down through history. And it's the first we'll see the book of Daniel. A lot of modern skeptics of the book of Daniel really don't like chapter seven through 12, because that's where the majority of the apocalypses or revelations occur.

But this is one in the mouth of, in the mind of Nebuchadnezzar. And basically it just talks about the four major empires that exist throughout human history until the very end of time.

Oh, yeah. Babylon's the big one. That's the first one, the head of gold.

The next one is going to become the Medo -Persian empire, the combined Medes and Persian empire.

And then the next one will be the Greek empire, which is Macedonian, but Greek influence. Alexander, the great conquest of all of Persia and all the

Middle East, and then later the Roman empire. And it's just a bare bones outline.

There's going to be a succession of these empires. And then there will be a kingdom without hands being built that just destroy it, a stone that'll destroy it.

And that looks towards the coming of Jesus Christ, the inauguration of his kingdom, the kingdom of heaven.

It has yet to be fulfilled fully. It's, we call it the kingdom that is and is not yet, meaning he's already started the process 2000 plus years ago, but it's not effectuated until the end of time.

Yeah. And the reason why I say it's the beginning is because we'll see more versions of this later in the book of Daniel in the apocalypses, but we're not going to go to that.

We don't have time for it. So, so what's interesting again, is critics don't like Daniel seven through 12 because it's got a lot of apocalypses, but Daniel two has an apocalypse and it's a dream that Nebuchadnezzar has.

And Daniel first gets the very first foundations of it. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's amazing.

I, I do get lost at the end of Daniel. I'm not going to lie. It's hard. Oh, it's hard. Yeah. It's yeah.

Like I said, we don't want to go there. We're not going to go there until we have time because there's a lot to unpack in the, in the apocalypses.

As it should take a long time. It should not be simple. Yeah. The other things that I wanted to just highlight, because, you know, in the next chapters, we talk about Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego getting thrown into a furnace, coming out untouched.

But just the way that they give praise to God to me, again, I'm an example, girly,

I need, I need to kind of that template and they do such a good job in this book. I mean what is it?

Daniel two, what is this? Chapter three, chapter three. No, I'm looking at Daniel two, um, 45.

The great God has shown the King what will take place in the future. The dream is true and his interpretation is trustworthy.

It's just, it's amazing the way that they just always give praise to God in the way that they do.

It's not like, Oh, thank you for giving me this. It's all it's hands off. It's all

God. Nothing. There's no sense of ego in it. And they even do it in Daniel four, where they say, go,

I guess 37. Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven because everything he does is right.

And all his ways are just, and those who walk in pride, he is able with those who walk in pride, he's able to humble.

And that's because the dream is fulfilled. And, um, he's just seeing all of these miracles. I just think,

I don't know. It's just centering God in such a beautiful way that I think I'm not used to doing. And I don't see quite often.

I would agree. I would think, um, yeah, no, I, I don't, I don't disagree. I think that's why such a good example for us to, to begin to think, okay, how do

I integrate this in my life circumstances? How do you, how do you get successful? How do you pray for success?

That's God honoring in your career. Um, I think the example of Daniel is to stay focused on God's kingdom purposes, whatever you do do is unto the

Lord. That's, you know, that's the new Testament version, right? Always, every, you're not working for men, you're working for God and everything you do.

Yeah. This podcast you're doing for God, not for men. Right. Um, and same thing here, you know,

I mean, so all the way through you see this, um, but Nebuchadnezzar's interesting because he gets it after Daniel chapter two, he loses it in Daniel chapter three, gets it back again, forgets it in chapter four, gets it again.

No one believes that he ever became a believer. No one really thinks that way, but he does go silent for a long period of time.

Uh, what we have of historical records of Nebuchadnezzar is this great military campaigns and building campaigns early in his career and not a whole lot towards the end.

So we don't know what happens to him. Right. Yeah. That's just, it's saying that you can experience

God and watch people survive a furnace, watch somebody survive the lion's den and not come out a diehard believer.

So is it just unknown because there's just no record of it or it's because there's evidence that he just never committed?

Well, there's no evidence. We have no record of it. So we could have, yeah, that's okay.

You're, you're welcome to it. You're welcome to think that. Did you want to look at Darius's, uh, appeal?

Cause there's the third political appeal Daniel makes, and it's very unique in itself. That's chapter six. I, yeah,

I was going to, I just turned to chapter six. The writing on the wall, I think is kind of overlooked. Um, it kind of reminds me of a horror story, if I'm not going to lie.

Am I understanding it correctly that they were at dinner? So chapter five is they're at dinner and then a human, like as if it looks like somebody is writing with their finger on the wall, words just appear like a foggy mirror after a shower, words appear on the wall.

Or etched into stone or etched into stone. Yeah. Well, what's interesting about that story,

Belshazzar now is the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar. Uh, his father Namo, Namo Nidus, sorry,

Nabo Nidus, uh, is off fighting, uh, other battles. And he has a residence in part of Saudi Arabia, we would have called

Tima back in the day. So Belshazzar is left in charge, but he's not a very effective King.

He's using the temple, uh, wealth to have, throw this lavish party. Uh, it, it appears that God put a judgment on him because of his rebellion against both, uh,

Nebuchadnezzar's legacy. And because of his abuse of temple, temple items.

And this was very, everyone knew this in the ancient world. You don't mess with the temple items of another King, unless you were a really horrific people.

Most ancients like the Persians, the Babylonians, the Syrians honored the ancestral religion of their opponents and allowed them to keep the temple, though they eventually pilfered it.

Here we see Belshazzar, he's going into a drunken thing, the last night of his rule, he doesn't know it.

And all of a sudden this handwriting appears and you're right. It would make a great horror story, Christian horror story, wouldn't it?

Could you imagine? I think the Bible can be quite terrifying, so yes. Well, you know, it's interesting you say that there is a, a, a, uh, not a seminar, but a day

I went to on October 7th and it was, um, conducted by UVC Uncommon Voices Collective that honors

Christians in horror films, Christian authors, writers, directors, publishers, producers, and everything, and actors.

Uh, and it's, you know, they want to create more and they believe there's more space in horror stories to talk about the hope of the gospel than there is in most secular

TV. So yeah, and, and that's one they were talking about. Wouldn't that make a fantastic piece?

Absolutely terrifying. Yeah. So Belshazzar is, yeah, many, many Tekkel Esfardan means, and Daniel gets to translate it.

He, God gives him the ability to read it. You've been weighed, found wanting, and your kingdom is divided against, beyond, by the

Medes and the Persians, the Medo -Persian Empire. So I'm just confused. Why could no one else read it?

Was it in a dead language that? Uh, it was probably written in a way only Daniel could see.

I mean, we see this Daniel, uh, in some of his prayers and some of his visions, other people don't see the, they, they react to the phenomena.

They fall faint. Only Daniel sees it. He faints, but he's revived. He's the only one that can see it.

So he has extraordinary gifts that God was able to use because he remained so humble throughout his life.

Wow. Yeah. So that very night he died. And that very night he died. And, and we do know historically

Syria or, I'm sorry, not Syria, Cyrus and the Persian Empire conquered Babylon very quickly without, without a lot of, uh, to do.

And his father was off in Timor. He had to fight a last stand battle. He was brought in and killed, but, but Belshazzar was killed that very night.

Wow. Yeah. But you notice it's interesting because again, critics of the book of Daniel, skeptics of it say, you know, back in before the 19th century would have said, see, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Belshazzar is not a name we know. It was found in the Nemotidis chronicles in the 19th century that his son was co -regent.

So when Belshazzar says, Hey, if you interpret this, I'll give you the third reign. The reason why he could only give him the third is because he was second.

So Daniel is historically accurate too. So I just thought I'd throw that out there. I think you've lost me a bit.

I'm not going to lie. I'm sorry. No, that's okay. So, so it's, it's, they're skeptics of the book of Daniel.

They often will say it's a second century author, anonymous Jew tried to write because they don't believe in prophecy.

A lot of skeptics. Okay. And, but the problem is if you go back, a lot of what

Daniel said came true and that's what makes it so awesome. So anyway, yeah. And a lot of that information was lost to history until recently.

So recently, well, 19th century, the name of Belshazzar was found in the

Nebuchadnezzar chronicles that was discovered by archeology. What were they using before they found that name? They didn't know.

Herodotus went to Babylon in 457 BC and he could not find the name of Nebuchadnezzar because it was so destroyed by Xerxes by the

Persians that later came. So a lot of the history was lost for a long period of time.

It's a miracle that we found it then. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Let's get into the big chapter six with the lions.

Yeah. Everyone wants to go to the lions right away. I don't want to go to the lions. I think it's just insane.

I mean, I think it also is such a terrifying feeling. I just watched Dune II and there is like a gladiator -esque scene.

And even if you watch the movie Gladiator, there's that scene. And it is a terrifying moment that you're about to get thrown alive with such beast.

I mean, and the way that Daniel stays calm and just faithful,

I think that in itself is a miracle. I posted something on Instagram like, oh, what's the greatest miracle of Daniel?

And someone said his faith. And when it comes to being face -to -face with a lion, I understand that. I mean, yeah, it's great to interpret dreams and to survive trauma and 900 kilometers of walking, but yeah,

I think that that's just insane. And it also is interesting that it happened despite the leader being your friend,

King Cyrus. King Darius, my bad. King Darius was a friend of his, but he was backed into a corner.

So he had to put his money where his mouth is, actually punish Daniel for not worshiping him and worshiping another

God. But I don't know, I think that makes it worse that your friend is doing it to you and you know you're doing the apex predator.

I mean, it's one of the things that makes Jesus's crucifixion so horrible is how he was innocent and without fault.

And yet he died in the worst way possible. It is one of a very similar but not equal situation for Daniel here.

Yeah. And it's interesting. The setup is, you know, Daniel, so Babylon's conquered by Persia, 539,

Darius is in charge and there's, we don't need to get into, there's a little version. Yes.

Well, we're not certain who he is. Either he is, that's his Babylonian name for Cyrus or it's another governor that's put in charge.

We don't really know. Anyway, that's for a different time. But Darius, because it says in the reign of Darius and Cyrus, that could be translated

Darius even Cyrus. We have that one other place in first chronicles. But anyway, for all it's, for all it's worth, it's

Darius sees that Daniel is one of the more effective holdovers from the Babylonian empire.

And he puts him in as one of his top three. Yeah. Administrators. Now, one of the responsibilities of administrators to make sure that no one's skimming the profits off.

We all know all bureaucracies are corrupt in some respect. People in bureaucracies are corrupt. In the ancient world, it was rampant.

I think this is what the seeds of the attack against Daniel were from, is that because Daniel was so effective, the king saw how faithful he was in his work ethic and his integrity.

He was probably not allowing anyone to skim profits off for them personal gain. And that's why

Darius wanted him to be put in charge of the top three administrator over all of the governors and administrators of Babylon.

So it was his. Now, this is the interesting thing. If your integrity is so good, people will become either intimidated and jealous or they'll resent you because of that.

But Daniel understood that because he was set apart early in his life and he understood God's sovereignty. This is the way he had to behave.

And he consistently prayed outdoors. So, again, it was his character that set it up where it couldn't be because of his work.

It was because of his faith that they had to get him. And that's why they conspired to make this phony decree.

Honor only Darius the king and Darius's ego. Let him get trapped by that. And then so Darius, as much as he loved as much as he loved

Daniel and respected him and realized he was good for his kingdom, thought, oh, my goodness, I've been made a dupe.

This is why Daniel's appeal here is not to say anything. And this is the wisdom of Daniel again, because it would only make

Darius feel worse. Darius already felt horrible, already felt shameful and already felt duped by his administrators.

So Daniel's wisdom here is to sit back and not say a thing, not defend himself. And we see

Paul does the same thing in Acts. We don't need to go there today, but there's good times when you defend yourself and there are times when you don't, when you especially when your faith is being attacked, that's time not to defend yourself.

What? Thank you. Jesus said, when you're being persecuted for my name's sake, blessed are you.

That's when you don't defend yourself. What? If you're doing something.

I got to stand up for him. Do you really? Isn't he bigger than you are? Oh, you're right.

So it's just my pride that I'm defending at that point. Or, you know,

I understand, you know, we all want to defend things, right? We wanted to, you know, like, I want to defend my wife. I'm going to defend younger people.

I'm going to defend the vulnerable, the weak. We're supposed to do that. I don't get that. God is not weak. God is the least weak being in the entire universe.

He doesn't need to be defended. Jesus said, if they hate you, if they hate me, they'll hate you too. So when people don't like you for what, you know, your faith, that's okay.

You're now reflecting Jesus Christ. Okay. Whoa. So when our faith is attacked, the best is to be quiet, let them say what they want to say and love them anyways, because our

God is greater. Yeah. And then even ask questions and allow them think back first Peter three 15, always be prepared to give a defense, get with gentleness, respect, and a clear conscience and the clear conscious part.

You can see with Daniel, he had a clear conscience. He did his work. They were attacking him based on his faith and God honored his faith by defending him against.

He knew before God and before Darius, he did nothing wrong. That's what he says after he's let go.

So I think part of it, now we oversimplify it. I think like, you know,

Abshak, Meshach and Abednego, they were willing to die for what they believed. Daniel was willing to die. You know, if, if, if the guard saw that the vegetarian diet wouldn't work, they'd either be killed or forced into the

King's meal. He's willing to die for his faith here. And yet God honors him. In fact, the story of this story is so good that I know

I've read Koreans during the Japanese occupation of Korea prior to up to and through, including World War II, use it as a model of how to remain separate from the

Japanese society that conquered them. The book of Daniel is so well respected in large parts of the world that we don't even think about.

So they kind of separate like the religious truths on, they just look at his character. Well, yeah.

And so you have to have character, but you also have to be respectful, but you also have to have separation, right? So it's all those things that Daniel fleshes out.

You got to be separate. In this world, but not of this world, right? We don't get our motivation from the world.

We actually think differently. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It really is where your, your center of gravity is.

And I think that is, you know, kind of what you said at the beginning, this hour has flown by, by the way, I like look down and it was already over, but I truly, and maybe this was him being born into royalty.

We can kind of make excuses that he was raised differently, but so are we compared to the society.

And if you do have such a strong core belief that you are meant to go make disciples of the earth, and that is your guiding truth in every decision that you make, that is a very strong place to be no matter if you're poor or rich or at the

King's table or, you know, in an alleyway with the paupers at the end of the day, that that's kind of the, uh, the road to success is my point.

You know, you won't fail if that's your core. Yeah. And even if we do, because God doesn't say there's going to have peaceful life on earth, in fact, troubles will come.

Right. So, but that's why it's so important to remain focused on God's kingdom purposes. So Daniel did that. We can do that with Matthew 28, 19 always.

And then by, by means of, I think first Peter three 15, always be prepared to give a defense for the hope that's in you.

So let them see the hope, let them see the faith, even if they attack. In fact, what I have found in my experience, sometimes people that are most hostile to you may be most willing to hear the gospel at some point.

But how do you overcome that aggression, that anger, that that's really the big wall to climb over.

That is a big wall. This is where it takes training, where it takes training. And training should be found in rereading

Daniel over and over again. Yeah, but also practicing, right. Taking it out. And, you know, I mean, I studied this and I taught it as Hugh Ross's class early in my career, and I used it to help how

I became a professor and God honored that approach in my life in a way that I don't want to go into.

It's not important. It was God that honored it in a way that surprised me. So, yeah,

I think you, you apply what you can, you stay focused on God's kingdom purposes and his kingdom purposes, maybe for you to be the best podcaster use doing this for new for young believers.

No, seriously. Isn't that part of God's kingdom purposes? I don't know. I'm trying to do what Daniel's doing right now and letting

God have the glory, not me. Well, but your, your part is to do the best you can.

So my part is to do the best I can, and the rest is up to God, whether this reaches a million people or a thousand people.

Or one. Or one. And I think I'm the one, to be honest. I think this was all for me. You guys are just watching me grow in my faith.

That's okay. That's good to do. Oh, gosh. No, this is a great conversation,

Dr. Clark. Thank you so much for illuminating things that I definitely skipped over, even though I read it like a week ago.

And I was still amazed when I read that. I think you were really able to dive in on some core points that made it even more meaningful, which is why we're having these conversations is any new believer can read, but you, you really took us to the next level.

So thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you for having me on. I really do appreciate it. Well, hopefully we can have you back on to discuss those scary creatures visiting earth.

Sounds like a plan. I'm looking forward to it. Let one go. Yeah, I'm going to leave it out there just for you.

Drop the mic. Well, I really appreciate it and hope to have you back on soon.