July 24, 2019 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “Conditional Immortality vs. Eternal Conscious Punishment: Is Heaven the Only Place Where Souls Will Live Forever?”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown, Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 24th day of July 2019. I'm thrilled to have back on the program. One of my favorite guests of all time a very dear friend of mine who has been featured On a number of special events that iron sharpens iron radio has orchestrated not only on the air.

But also in public like public moderated debates and Bible conferences and pastors luncheons. I'm speaking of dr. Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. Today we are going to be addressing a theme that I've never spent a full two hours addressing on this program conditional immortality.

Versus eternal conscious punishment. Is heaven the only place where souls will live forever. And this is a prelude to a future debate that we are arranging right now. Which God willing will take place in October on iron sharpens iron radio for at least two days in a row with conditional immortality.

Advocate Chris date and. Also, we're gonna be announcing a Bible conference that dr Costa is involved in at the church at friendship in Hockley, Texas. And we'll be discussing that in a little bit, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Dr. Tony Costa. Amen the pleasure is all mine brother and. For our listeners who perhaps haven't heard you on the show before perhaps they are New to you, they're not very familiar with Toronto Baptist Seminary, please.

Tell our listeners about Toronto Baptist Seminary.

Great and if anybody wants more information about Toronto Baptist Seminary.

You can go to TBS edu. TBS edu. In fact, I Just had a wonderful time recently with your principal at Toronto Baptist Seminary. Dr. Willem. And in fact, you were there as well. You were at the same at the same a Bible conference in Franklin, Tennessee and it was a joy meeting him and his brother Stephen and Hopefully, I'll have them both on perhaps even at the same time sometime.

But.

Defining Conditional Immortality and Distinguishing It from Annihilationism

We are discussing a very controversial issue in the church. It is conditional immortality. It is an issue that is growing or a belief that is growing in popularity. I have personal friends That have come to adopt this view.

Perhaps I am a little bit unique amongst my reformed Baptist brethren in That although I am NOT a believer in conditional immortality I'm not as radically opposed to those who do believe it as some of my friends are.

But this is a view if I'm not mistaken, you can correct anything that I say When I describe the definition as I understand it Conditional immortality is the belief that only those who are truly Regenerate born again.

Those are the true children of God the elect they are given the gift of immortality the gift of eternal life and therefore That condition is that these people are of the elect. That they are regenerate.

And those who are the reprobate those who are going to go to hell. They will not live for eternity in hell. They will not suffer Torturous existence a conscious punishment for eternity. They will at some point determined by God be annihilated now.

You could also correct me if I'm wrong the difference between that view and the view that is more commonly known as annihilation ISM. Many who embrace the latter annihilation ISM believe that at the judgment All the lost will be in instantly annihilated.

They will be cast into the lake of fire and they will just instantly evaporate into non-existence. Whereas conditional immortality advocates it seems to me at least those that I have Known and loved for quite a long time and have spoken with they believe Hell is real.

Hell exists. It's just not eternal it you and in fact my F. My late wife's pastor who is also now in heaven. Don blend. He believed in conditional immortality, but he also believed That there was a possibility that people like Hitler and some grotesque wicked Reprobates of history they may even be in hell for a million years, but it won't be for eternity now.

Did I misspeak at all in that description?

No, I think I think you've also made a good point. There's also an open right and Clark didn't start that way. He started as an Orthodox believer.

I don't mean I don't mean Eastern Orthodox. I mean biblically.

Yes.

Yes, and one figure I don't know if he coined the phrase or not perhaps you could enlighten me but a a brother that I had developed a Correspondence with years ago back in the 1990s Edward Fudge. He wrote a book that seems to have been a catalyst for many evangelical and perhaps even especially reformed even though Ed Fudge Was from a Church of Christ background, but interestingly enough interestingly enough though in my correspondences with him over the years.

He is Now in heaven at Fudge, but not not the very long ago. It was just a year or two ago I believe that he passed away.

But he.

Developed he developed a View that perhaps was not classical Calvinism but he he was very unique in regard to the mainstream Congregations within that group the Church of Christ the restorationist movement Which have been pejoratively nicknamed Campbellites.

He did not believe that baptism by immersion was essential for the forgiveness of sins and.

He.

Adopted some views that were very similar are very similar to Reform theology even while remaining in a congregation in the Church of Christ or at least that called itself that. But I from what. For the the brothers that I know who Abandoned the traditional view of eternal conscious punishment.

I think every single one of them Came to adopt the belief in conditional immortality from Ed Fudge. Do you have you experienced that same thing or? And by the way, brother, I don't know if there's anything you could do to improve the sound of your voice.

Because you sound a bit muffled. I don't know if you're okay. I will. I'll remove my head. Okay, hopefully it will. That's a million times better. Okay, very good. Just saying that many do consider Edward.

Finally, in fact, there was a movie made about Ed Fudge's.

Journey personal journey into the belief in conditional immortality. This is even though he is from a Church of Christ. Background. That is not the typical view of the most commonly held view in the Church of Christ, in fact, he was Treated with great hostility.

Amongst amongst his own.

Fellow Members of the Church of Christ even in his own congregation and. And many had viewed him as a total apostate false Christian as a result of this. Not all obviously but and it was quite quite an interesting movie I saw.

The movie was actually Even though Ed was not a Seventh-day Adventist the a Seventh-day Adventist filmmaker produced the film.

Right, right. Well, I think Fudge's reputation is also seen in the fact that many of scholars even even so.

Tell us why this was actually your idea to Focus on this theme today. And in fact, it was an excellent idea because as I said, I've never spent two hours on the show Discussing conditional immortality.

So first of all, why don't you tell us a first and foremost why this was something? Pressing so greatly on your heart and mind that you wanted to address it for two hours today.

Well, I think because it is doctrine. I think it's something that. So I think in fact.

I've got to be honest, even though I am NOT an advocate of conditional immortality. Right now it's the only belief or Doctrine that I can think of that. I don't believe that. I wish I did or or that I wish was true.

Right. Well, you're a good company Chris because I take the same view as you. This is the one doctrine that If I had something that has and so I would even if we were to but at the end of the day I must accept without reservation.

By the way for those of my Evangelical conservative evangelical friends and acquaintances or listeners who may be mad that I have Not so harsh a reaction to this belief There are as as dr. Costa said earlier there are heroes within conservative evangelical Christianity and reformed Christianity specifically like Dr. John Stott.

Who I don't I don't know if he ever became a full advocate of it. But I did meet him in person years ago in the 90s. When he was speaking on Long Island, New York, and I after the event was over. I asked him Face to face.

Do you believe in conditional immortality or annihilation. And his response at that time? was. Well, let me put it this way. I am paraphrasing of course, but it was something very similar to what I'm saying.

He said I at the very least view it as an orthodox alternative view of eschatology.

Right and.

FF Bruce the deceased. Now in eternity with Christ. FF Bruce. He also, I don't know if he was a full advocate of it, but he at least viewed it as Within as Hank Canegraaff used to say the pale of orthodoxy.

And well, there's also Michael Green, but at the late dr. Michael Green when when I met him in Toronto, I asked him. The very same question you asked dr. Michael Green Jesus Christ and well if you could.

Let's start with some scriptural references that lead you to believe that the the truly biblically sound biblically orthodox biblically faithful understanding of the eternal destiny of The reprobate the lost is eternal conscious punishment.

If you could might as well start there.

Sure, I think that we need to understand that the the highest apology we have to have In contrast to Chris that the Lord's responses and of course.

God willing when we have our Two day debate a minimum of two days who knows it may grow longer than that. But when we have our debate in October with Chris date who is an advocate of conditional immortality Who also claims I believe don't want to say too much about his beliefs, but I am almost certain he is a professing Calvinist or believer in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

But I.

Am assuming he's going to respond to some of those texts as I as I have heard before.

That the smoke of.

The torment goes up forever not the torment. And eternal punishment Is not the same thing in their minds as eternal punishing. In other words Even if you were to be a full-blown annihilationist who believes that somebody.

Is.

Instantly annihilated at the resurrection of both the saved and the lost or at least at the judgment. Or if even if you want to say a person who doesn't even believe in the afterlife They they will say when you die your worm food You are Just eaten dust for eternity.

They will say that death is eternal so therefore Eternity if a punishment is an eternal. They say what the Bible is teaching is that there's not going to be a second chance. There's no reversal on that punishment.

All right, it's not gonna change.

So, how do you respond to those? I would. Yeah, I think that that that could not be supported. Wow, they have neither in Revelation but how do you risk. How do you respond. Because I've heard that responded to as well.

Where the.

Answer as well as my late wife's late pastor would say well as I said Hitler may be in hell for a million years being tormented. So it's referring to that period because there are Conditional immortality advocates who do believe in torment conscious torment that it's just not eternal.

That's right. Yeah, and again in the passage in Revelation.

Now we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And please as always give us your first name at least.

Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you disagree with your pastor or your church on this issue again.

You don't want to draw attention to yourself or your church. I understand that you may even be a pastor who disagrees with your congregation or denomination or fellowship or association of association of churches and Then you obviously don't want to bring up your identity.

Perhaps you disagree with our guests. Perhaps you are an advocate of conditional immortality and You want to disagree without identifying yourself? Okay, I'll let those issues pass as far as being anonymous.

But if it's just a general question on theology on eschatology. And a lot of people don't even realize this is a matter of eschatology, even though it's not Involving the Millennium or the the Rapture or the return of Christ.

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He is the professor or a professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. We are discussing conditional immortality versus eternal conscious punishment is heaven. The only place where souls will live forever.

And as I have been saying, this is a prelude to a future debate God willing in October with conditional immortality advocate Chris date. If you have a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence. If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

We do have a Listener in Ontario Canada like a fellow Canadian. What do you what it's the nickname for Canadians Tony? That's it a Fellow Canuck and his name is also. Oh, I thought it was Tony. It's Tom I have to enlarge Tom's question and To be more specific Tom is from Waterloo Ontario Canada.

Now, I will never get that ABBA song out of my mind. Thank you Chris for this program and welcome to Dr. Tony Costa my former seminary professor as well as a dear brother in Christ whom I am very proud of in response to those who advocate.

Let's see. I have to Expand this to see the whole thing. He's saying here in response to those who advocates Conditional immortality theology here is my question to them knowing that all that God has created is eternal.

Including human soul. How could they reconcile their view of conditional immortality with this biblical fact? Well, we don't have a conditional immortality advocate on the show to tell you the answer to that Tom but their argument is that not everything is eternal.

They don't believe that the souls of the reprobate are and that they do believe that eternal.

Life is.

Only a gift granted to the elect or those who believe depending I guess it would depend upon whether the the advocate of this view is a Calvinist or not, but As far as how they would phrase that but They would believe that you have to be a Christian to receive the gift of eternal life.

But anyway, do you have anything to add to what Tom in Waterloo, Canada has said?

Yeah, I think I think that's correct. It's called Connecticut. So. Well, thank you Tom.

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Return now Tony to the scriptural evidence that you believe most.

Is.

Focused on personal eschatology the eternal state Of specifically of those who are reprobate or lost.

Yes, well, we looked at Matthew 25 the final judgment whether it is eternal to be antichrist. They will be the smoke of the torment will go up forever and they have destroyed the house that you're living in.

But the Lord had and so you can when the Lord Jesus so the idea here. Yes. I had a friend.

Who was an advocate of conditional immortality and perhaps still is? Haven't spoken with him in quite a number of years, but he always used to drive home the terms death and dead the the second death Etc.

And in that way he was seeking to prove That the person would no longer exist after at least a period. But I used to remind him. Are those who are not yet regenerate? Or never will be. Are they dead in their trespasses and sins.

It used to say yes, and I would say are they conscious. Do they see hear? smell and taste and feel.

Do they?

Experience. Trauma and and fear and terror and depression and pain, you know, I mean. So he I remember he I used to say that after he would say dead is dead is dead is dead. And well not not really. Yes, and now he's a Calvinist but We are and Norman Geisler's in glory with Christ he's saying I wrote what.

But.

We're going to our midway break right now. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own Write down your question for dr. Tony Costa on conditional immortality or annihilation or even soul sleep which we have to make it clear that not everybody who believes in conditional immortality believes in soul sleep or Not everybody who believes in conditional in the mortality believes in the instant annihilation of the wicked at the judgment.

So if you'd like a question about any of these categories or Topics our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA and please use This time wisely this longer than normal break because of Grace Life Radio and Lake City, Florida's Requirement of this longer break because they have to localize iron trap and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida as an FCC regulation.

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So don't go away God willing We're gonna be right back after these messages with dr. Tony Costa and more of our discussion on.

Annihilationism.

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