Dead Men Walking Podcast: Unconditional Election

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Okay, ready? Yeah. Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between.

00:10

Broadcasting from an undisclosed location. Dead Men Walking starts now.

00:21

Well, hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking. I am Greg Moore. And who is this guy?

00:28

And I am Jason Hamlin. Yeah, the ham man. Did you just have me announce myself?

00:36

Yeah, I don't think I'm going to announce you anymore. I think I'll just look to you. I'm going to have to come up with something.

00:42

And then you can get your radio voice going like, Hey, Jason Hamlin. It's five minutes to the top of the hour.

00:48

Traffic's clear. You know what the gas prices were last year, Tom? Gas on 54th and 3rd is $259 .99.

00:58

Those radio DJ days, man. I don't know if we should go there. That's a good day.

01:04

But we're all hopped up on Coke Zero, so who knows what's going to happen this episode.

01:09

We're partying up in here. But, hey, listen. I did want to mention that we had a few people reach out to us on Instagram and give us some episode ideas.

01:20

And I thought that was interesting. If there's any of the listeners out there that are thinking about a topic or a doctrine or some systematic theology or just want us to discuss, we would take it into consideration, don't you think?

01:35

Yep, definitely. And it was an interesting topic, and Jason and I talked about it.

01:41

We're going to roll it around. Right now we're continuing on with basically a five -part series. I don't want to call it a series, but basically we're doing five episodes of the

01:49

Five Points of Tulip, T -U -L -I -P. I was just editing down our first episode.

01:58

That was an amazing episode. Total depravity, yeah. So when you hear this, this will already be out. I said, we're amazing.

02:06

No one loves Jason more than Jason. We are so awesome.

02:11

No, it was really good. I was in the Bay editing it down, listening to it, and we had some really good verses on there, just some really good talk about it.

02:21

I did notice that I think I almost misspelled tulip one time.

02:26

I think I said T -U -L -P, whatever. But it's tulip. So it's the total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace.

02:39

Good. Oh, you're making a face at me. I remembered it.

02:45

I was like, is he going to make it? Does he know these? I do. Because I don't think

02:50

I know them. You were looking at me weird. And I was like, does he, either he's got a burp, or he needs to say something.

02:57

Good to see a few, all the five. So yeah, the T was total depravity. We did that last week. Yep. We're going to put these all,

03:03

I think we're going to upload them all in a row for you. So you'll just have boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Is that five? Boom, boom, boom.

03:08

Yep, five in a row. And today we focus on the U. Unconditional election.

03:16

Unconditional election. But before we get to that, I don't know. In a few days.

03:22

Anything new going on? In life, things are just awesome.

03:28

Things are just really good. Yeah. Working at the old FOMO Co. And you know,

03:34

Emsley's doing awesome. She is actually. How old is your daughter now? She's starting to scream a lot more, use her voice a lot more.

03:42

She's six months. Usually in restaurants, she likes to scream at everyone. But she's only saying hi.

03:49

You know, she's just saying hi. She just wants to be a part of the conversation. It's all right. Can she sit up?

03:54

She can. Because usually six months is about when they're starting to sit up by themselves. She is an advanced baby, we've been told.

04:02

And we are going to, you know, grab that and be thankful with that.

04:09

Hold on to it. Other than that, yeah. What's going on with you, man? Oh, I just got back from South Haven, Michigan.

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Very nice. On Lake Michigan. So we go up there once a year with the family and basically just live on the beach.

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For those that are outside of Michigan, we obviously have the Great Lakes here in Michigan.

04:30

They're actually beautiful. And Lake Michigan is probably one of the more beautiful ones. Obviously Superior in the

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Upper Peninsula is gorgeous. But that one's, geez, even through the summer is about 50 degrees. Just because it's so deep and, you know, so far north.

04:44

So Lake Michigan, you get, you know, nice 70 degree water, white sandy beaches. Went up there with the kids.

04:50

Well, you know, we set up at about 9, 30, 10 o 'clock and we don't leave until seven or eight. So we're just on the beach all day.

04:56

South Haven has a nice little walkable downtown area where we can shop and eat and things like that.

05:02

But we were up there for four or five days, just kind of getting in some relaxed time before we start homeschooling next week.

05:08

Is that the normal vacation that you take once a year?

05:14

Yeah, we have friends that live outside of Grand Rapids. Nice. And they have a house with basically a full kitchenette basement, you know, finished basement.

05:23

So we would go there and our kids are the same age. Oh, cool. And we would jump off from south of Grand Rapids or in Ada.

05:31

You can get to Grand Haven, South Haven, Muskegon, Holland.

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You know, all those different little touristy towns along the west side of the state within about 45 to 50 minutes.

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So we would just do day trips. Yeah, yeah. And then save a couple bucks on staying with friends up there.

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But this year, his father, actually, as we were headed up there, passed away. Oh. So we got a hotel in Holland.

06:00

My brother was in Holland. Very nice. My brother does like a lot of din every year, but now he's doing Holland. Yeah, yeah. Then my sister came up and visited with her husband,

06:07

Cody. My sister Charity and Cody came up. Yeah. And we kind of had this little extended family, you know, hang out for a few days.

06:13

Yeah, yeah. And he gets campsites. He loves camping, my brother. Yeah. So that was, yeah, we had two campsites going.

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You know, we had a hotel and it was just a good time. Yeah, man. Sounds awesome.

06:26

Had good weather, you know. That's a good Michigan vacation right there. It is. There's a lot of cool places to go in the country.

06:33

Yeah. We have a few gems here in Michigan. Yeah. I would say the UP and the west side of the state are some. I still have not seen any of the waterfalls up in the

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UP. We've been up there a while. We used to tour up that way quite a bit, actually. Sault Ste. Marie all the way over to Ironwood and Escanaba and whatever, but never went.

06:49

I haven't seen them yet either. Saw the waterfalls. That's next on the list. We were just talking about that. Yeah. My wife and I thought maybe we should just do an early

06:58

September trip. Oh, yeah. Where you're still getting those 60, 70 degree days, but maybe stuff's just starting to turn.

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Yeah. And it's just supposedly just gorgeous up there. Oh, I'm sure. The trees, the foothills, the mountains, the waterfalls.

07:11

People forget that it is the wild west. It is like God's country in the

07:17

UP. Oh, yeah, man. You will go. First of all, they only have limited class A roads, which a lot of their roads are either dirt or trail.

07:26

So class A would be like paved that can take weight, and trucks and cars can drive on them. You can go 70, 80 miles easily, sometimes 100 plus miles without a gas station, without seeing a store, and without any cell service.

07:41

Right. So when my brother went up there, the guy said, hey, do you need to fill up? He's like, I got a half tank. He's like, there's not a gas station, cell phone service, or a store for another 110 miles.

07:50

You probably want to fill. And it was. I mean, you break down. You're not calling anyone. You're not seeing anyone.

07:56

I mean, it's God's country. There's bears. It's literally, they took dynamite, blew up, cut down trees, blew through rock, put down a two lane road, and then that's how you get to the next little city.

08:09

But the upside of that is it's just absolutely untouched. Right. Yeah. I lived on Martha's Vineyard for a little while.

08:17

Really? Went to a school up there. Yeah. There was a domestic study abroad program. Yeah. It was a music program.

08:23

It was pretty cool. Do you use Grey Poupon on your sandwiches? Oh, we use Grey Poupon over our sandwiches.

08:30

And, yeah, we, yeah. I mean, they kept it very, very rugged, rustic, you know.

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I mean, it was beautiful. I loved it. Yeah. I loved it up there. But yeah, no, the UP, definitely a great spot.

08:44

You can get land up there pretty cheap right now, too. Are you trying to sell me some land right now, you real estate guy, you?

08:51

For our listeners, if you want to go live off the grid, you can get about 80 acres for less than $1 ,000 an acre.

08:58

The only problem with the real nice stuff that has, like, rivers and foothills and stuff in it and lakes and bears and, oh, there's your spider.

09:04

He's back. Where? He's right there. Oh, he's outside. Good. Stay there.

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Some of them don't even have Class A roads, so you're getting to your property either in an airplane, a helicopter, four -wheeler, side by side.

09:16

Wouldn't that be amazing? Four by four. I want the new Bronco so I can do that. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I want the new

09:21

Bronco, too. I just don't want to pay for it. Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to figure out how not to pay $55 ,000 for a truck. Well, maybe

09:26

Ford could sponsor the Dead Men Walking podcast. Maybe we should call the

09:33

CEO they just fired and see what he's up to. Oh, hack it? No, he's retiring. Oh, he's retiring? Yeah, he's retiring.

09:38

I thought they booted him. And that's a good thing. He couldn't hack it. Where's the laughter?

09:46

Oh, wait a minute. Oh, man. Wait. Dang it. Greg, try it again. Okay, hold on.

09:51

Hold on. Yeah. Jim Hackett is retiring from Ford because he couldn't hack it.

10:05

Thank you. Yeah. Dad jokes. Oh, it's still going. Now they're just laughing at me.

10:14

I heard he wasn't doing a good job, though, right? Not to get all Fortune 500 on this podcast.

10:20

You wouldn't think he was because our stock is worthless at the moment.

10:26

I heard he took back dividends after they were like, don't get rid of those.

10:31

And then he was like, we're not going to get rid of them. And then like a year later, he's like, yeah, we'll get rid of them. And people went berserk and was like,

10:38

Ford has always paid dividends. Like, how can you do that? Well, GE did the same thing. Oh, did they? People were going wild.

10:44

Yeah, man. Got to have those dividends. But then again, if you had, well, okay, we're getting off now.

10:53

But if you had $2 million and you put it in a Vanguard dividend, high yield, you could make 60 grand a year.

11:02

From what I've been told, 60 grand a year off of $2 million. So kids out there listening, get yourself a job, save your money up, and let that exponential growth happen.

11:18

Absolutely. Let that money flip over, get to $2 million, retire, and don't touch it.

11:26

Yeah. That's your lesson. Then take that $60 ,000 and you can even invest that in the real estate market and then call me.

11:32

Yeah, then call Greg. And we'll hook it up. Which I've been doing a lot more investment deals right now.

11:39

Right now? Right now. Well, probably because of the interest rates. Interest rates are super low, and I think people are realizing, oh, stuff can just go sideways overnight.

11:49

I need a plan B. Just in case. I need passive income. I need backup stuff. Yeah, it's true.

11:55

You should always have a plan for your plan for your plan. I think that's in Proverbs it says that.

12:03

Does it? Yeah, Proverbs 30. I mean, there's all kinds. Go ahead. I didn't mean to. I was going to say 36.

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33 -7. 36. Yeah, 36 -7. Well, Jason, there are 36 books in Proverbs.

12:17

Yeah, I know. That's part of the dad joke I just told. I think it's like look at the ant, even how he works during the summer, never stops moving, or even like the squirrel that stores up for the winter.

12:32

There's wisdom just in that. Throughout the entire scriptures. But anyway, so you want to get into unconditional election?

12:39

Unconditional election. So I think maybe we should give some definitions. Yeah. Right? Yep.

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So election, first of all, probably can most easily be described as, is the act of God's sovereign will where before the creation of the world, he chooses an individual or group of people to accomplish a purpose.

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So that's what election means. We have a word in front of that called unconditional election.

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The understanding of election has traditionally been called unconditional election. It is unconditional because it is not conditioned upon anything that God sees in us that makes us worthy of his choosing us.

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Right? So in context of the term unconditional election, this election is the sovereign act of God where from before the creation of the world, he chose those whom he would save, which is referenced in Ephesians 1, 4, 2

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Thessalonians 2, 13. This election to save is not conditioned upon any foreseen faith, like in Romans 9, 16, which says, so then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who he mercies, or any unforeseen good works of any individual.

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This election is based completely on God's sovereign choice, according to the kind intention of his will,

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Ephesians 1, 1, 11. And we'll go over some of these verses as well. God chose the elect because he decided to bestow his love upon them, based solely on his sovereign grace and for his glory.

14:16

So that's kind of an overview of unconditional election, meaning he elects a people onto himself unconditionally.

14:24

He's not conditioned on anything you did, I did, what he foresaw. It was totally unconditional.

14:33

And I think that goes very nicely with last week's episode of total depravity, because thank

14:42

God it was unconditional, because there's nothing good in any of us. And I know what

14:48

I would have done if he would have done 99%, and then

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I had to do 1 % to be saved. Yeah, I mean, we could start in Romans 9 as well.

15:05

Yeah, why don't we read Romans? I don't have it in front of me. I could start at verse 6 here.

15:13

Romans 9, verse 6, this is the ESV. But it is not as though the word of God has failed, for not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring.

15:31

But through Isaac shall your offspring be named. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

15:47

Can I read that one again? Sure. 9, 8, this means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

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For this is what the promise said, about this time next year

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I will return and Sarah shall have a son. And not only so, but also when

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Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works, but because of him who calls.

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Read that one again. Okay. Though they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works, but because of him who calls.

16:45

So have you heard the, we can pause here for a second. Sure. So have you heard the illustration of God looking through eternity and seeing that Greg was going to choose

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Christ and he was going to do good things for Christ, so then he said, okay, he's going to be a part of the elect.

17:05

Therefore I'm going to elect him because he first chose me. Yeah, well, that's not true. Yeah, I mean that group of verses, which is a famous one to refute that, it's pretty darn clear that it was unconditional.

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There was nothing good nor bad. He didn't look down the hallways of time and see that Esau was going to do something versus the other.

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And that one, it says there was no partiality. There was nothing good nor bad.

17:37

Right. He chose to what? To continue his purpose and the purpose of election.

17:45

Right. And what would we have chosen, though, if he would have been looking through time? I mean, we would have not chosen him, right?

17:55

Yeah, in the foreknowledge of God argument, the idea that God has foreknowledge and he knows the future and knows what different people will pick under different circumstances and then elects people on that.

18:08

There's a couple things with that. First, it's a violation of God's statement that he does not show partiality.

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If God looked into the future to see who he would pick under different circumstances, then he's showing favoritism based on a foreseen good quality in them, namely the good quality that they'll choose him under different circumstances.

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So we know that God doesn't show partiality. Romans 9, 9 through 11. I think

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I, let me see if I have it here. For this is the word of promise. At this time, I will come and Sarah shall have a son.

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This is what you just read. And not only this, but there was Rebecca also. He had conceived twins by one man, our father

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Isaac, for though the twins were not yet born, had not done anything good or bad. So exactly what you just read is kind of showing that God doesn't show partiality.

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Right. The biggest one for me, too, is that like the idea of foreknowledge in that sense, interpreting foreknowledge as God learning something, implies that God is learning by looking into the future.

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Right. To see what we would believe. Yeah. And this kind of violates the doctrine of omniscience.

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Yeah. Like if he's all knowing, all powerful, God can't learn anything. Right. He's also omnipresent, so he sits outside of time.

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So if he's not bound by time, by saying he looks into the future.

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Right. There is no future for God. There is no past for God. God is all present, which is something we don't have here in our reality.

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There's no such thing as present. We use the word present, but all present means is very near future or very near past.

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Right? Like right now, that's in the past, and we haven't gotten to the future yet. So we, you know, stuck inside of time, we can never attain present.

19:55

God is present at all times. There's no past or no future. I know it sounds a little trippy. Right. But the fact that you would say

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God learned something and then looked into the corridors of time tells me that he's obviously not omniscient because he's learning something.

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Now you're binding him. Which only a God that sits out of space, time, or matter can actually create space, time, and matter.

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Yeah. Because space, time, and matter can't create itself. Right? I think, is it

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Craig who has a really nice argument on that? William Lane Craig? William. Yeah. William Lane Craig.

20:33

Is that who it is? On kind of the space -time argument? Yeah. I know Frank Turek. Are you talking about the

20:38

Kalam? Or the, yeah, the Kalam cosmological argument? I don't know. Yeah, he's, yeah.

20:49

Yeah, we can move forward to verse 12 or 13. As it is written, going back to Romans 9, 13.

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For the scripture says to Pharaoh, To answer back to God.

22:31

Wow. Yeah, those are, you know, powerful set of verses. Also very famous when we're talking about, or infamous, however you want to look at it, when talking about this subject.

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My favorite part of that is, is Paul answers the very question that people immediately ask.

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Mm -hmm. When they say, talk about unconditional election, predestination, all those things.

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You just sit down with a Christian today and you're talking about it, they just say, well, I mean, if God just elects, then how can he find fault?

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Like, then we shouldn't be at fault for anything. Like literally, that's the first thing they say.

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And that's the first answer that Paul gives. And the problem is, is

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I don't think he gives a very satisfying answer for people in the flesh.

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In the spirit, it's a very satisfying answer. Well, God is God, and you don't get to ask, you don't get to argue with God.

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And spiritually, you're like, oh, that makes total sense. Like, I'm the created one, he's the creator. But when you're kind of letting the flesh, you know, when you're reading the

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Bible through almost sinful state or through the flesh, and you say, well, why am

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I at fault then if God predestines and elects? And you say, well, you don't get to ask that question because God is

23:58

God. Well, that offends you. Like, wait a minute, no. I want to know. Yeah, I mean, the argument that I always tend to hear is, well, then why even share the gospel?

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Because God already knows who is going to be, who he's calling. And it's like, well, you know, we're still -

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Well, first, because he commands it. Right, we're told to share the gospel, you know? Usually what I respond to is

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I ask them a question and say, well, why do you pray? God knows everything. Right. I mean, let's not even talk about election or predestination.

24:34

Why pray then? Yeah. And they'll say, well, you know, God commands it. It's communication.

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He already knows what you're going to say. You believe that God is sovereign in that aspect. He's all -powerful and all -knowing.

24:45

Uh -huh. So why pray? Right. And that usually helps kind of lift the corner on trying to think differently about -

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Some of it, yeah. Because we just, you know, as Christians and as humans, we just think very linearly.

25:00

Uh -huh. Like, in time, space, and like, I pray something, God responds. Like, we think of God in a relationship of like how you and I have a relationship to where I say something, you respond back.

25:10

Right. Hey, can you hand me that? Reach over, hand it to me. It's very, you know, call and response. Yeah. To where when you're dealing with an all -powerful, all -knowing, present, all -sovereign, all -holy, all -righteous, like, you can't even start to fathom.

25:25

I mean, that is the mystery of God. You can't start to fathom. You can't put him in the box of just another human that you're communicating with.

25:32

Yes, he tells us to pray. We pray to him, and we have a relationship with him, and he does communicate with us.

25:38

But it's not like we're communicating here with an earthly parent or friend or family member. Yeah, yeah.

25:43

You know? And I've had a couple people go, I never really thought of that. Why, you know, if he knows everything, why do

25:50

I pray? And it's like, well, in the same way that you just kind of accepted that premise and didn't really think about it,

25:55

I kind of now want you to think about the premise of if you're saying God is in control, what does that mean?

26:03

Right. Right? We've said that a few times on this. There's a lot of like Christianese. Oh, yeah. God's on the throne.

26:08

God's in control. Right. But I don't believe in the doctrines of grace. Okay, well, then what does that mean if God's in control?

26:14

Right. And then, you know, you have guys like Bill Johnson who come out, and they clarify that, and they're like, well,

26:24

God's in charge, but we're in control. Yeah. And then I would say, okay, well, now you're stepping into heresy.

26:30

Right. But he's at least trying to divide that for his listeners. For his people. Because he's trying to figure it out.

26:35

He's a little God. That's the point. I mean, yeah, his little God. That's what people don't want.

26:41

They don't want to allow God to be the sovereign. They want to be the one that's calling the shots.

26:49

Absolutely. Man, that is definitely stepping into some heresy, you know, for sure. Well, that's a great point.

26:55

You can see how the mini -God or mini -Christ theology, which we're all kind of, which is, and we've talked about it before, we're all kind of mini -Christ and mini -Gods.

27:07

Because, you know, even Francis Chan just came out just a few weeks ago and basically said, because the

27:13

Holy Spirit dwells in me, we're basically the hyperstatic unit.

27:19

We're half God and half man. And it was kind of preaching this mini -Christ theology.

27:26

Francis Chan. Can you believe it? There's a clip on. Definitely going to look that one up. I think if you go to biblicalandreformed on the

27:35

Instagram account, biblicalandreformed, she put a nice, you know, five or eight minute clip up there with some commentary.

27:42

But my point was, when you have that theology, it ultimately has to move into what

27:49

Bill Johnson has said, in charge, but we're in control. Okay, well, now you're playing a word game.

27:54

What does in charge mean? Like if I'm babysitting a group of kids and I'm in charge, but they're in control, well, what does that mean?

28:03

If I'm in charge, that means you do what I say. So it's like this weird word game that they played where they're trying to define

28:12

God's sovereignty with also them having their own free will and being in charge as well.

28:19

And it just doesn't work. Either God is in control or he isn't. Either he's sovereign or he isn't. I read it in Romans 9 there, where it says, why would the clay look back at the potter and say, what are you doing?

28:32

I mean, it's right there in Romans 9. And I think that example, that allegory that he's using is kind of a little bit of Paul being humorous too.

28:44

He's basically calling us a lump of unformed clay. Like essentially comparing a conscious, self -aware person with an inanimate object.

28:54

I mean, that's really how we line up to God versus us, creator versus created.

29:02

I'm saying as in much as we have control over clay and it can't argue back, that's how we are in comparison to God.

29:10

Does that make sense? Yeah, so how does this go into the robot discussion that we're just a bunch of robots?

29:19

Like people saying that, well, if God already knows what you're gonna do and he's already predestined you to do all this stuff, so you're just a robot just doing exactly what, look at me,

29:33

I'm about to drop this pen. I just dropped it, but he didn't make that decision. Right, I would say to them that I'm much more comfortable believing in an all sovereign

29:43

God who has purpose for every single thing in creation than believing in a

29:50

God that leaves things up to chance and there's evil acts and there's horrible things that happen with absolutely no purpose.

29:57

So you can call it a robot, the robot theory, but we do have choices within our will, but our will in nature is sin nature, like we talked about.

30:09

Either you're an Adam or Christ. Adam and Christ. So people make free choices all the time within their nature.

30:15

I'm just saying you don't have the power or the free will to choose Christ and to make yourself spiritually alive.

30:23

But Dr. James White does a really nice two or three hour debate on this too, talking about how if you are a true

30:33

Arminian or you believe in true free libertarian free will, then you have to admit that there are things that happen outside of the control of God, evil acts that have absolutely no purpose.

30:48

When in fact, when I read the Bible, it says that what men meant for evil, God means for good, that He controls every aspect of His creation and even the worst, most heinous act can bring glory to God.

31:00

Now I'm not saying, you know, hear me. I'm not saying you do evil acts or you sin and go, oh, well, then it can glorify

31:07

God so I can just do whatever I want. No, I mean, the Bible absolutely forbades that through the old and new testament.

31:16

What I'm saying is in His sovereignty and in His glory and in His power, He can even use evil acts to glorify

31:23

Himself because all glory gets pushed back to God.

31:30

That's kind of a roundabout answer. I guess it's not really, you know, there's no really satisfying answer with that because it is, it's a mystery.

31:42

Absolutely, God holds us responsible for our actions and sovereignly ordains all things in this world.

31:50

That's a huge dichotomy that you have to, you know, try to, what's the word

31:56

I'm looking for? Try to reconcile. But no one ever has ever reconciled that.

32:02

Now we get off into some strange doctrinal and denominations when we do try to reconcile that.

32:09

But at the end of the day, for me personally, when I read the Bible, when I read the disciples and apostles and the prophets, and I just see them and I read

32:18

Job, and just they ultimately say, it's not for me to determine.

32:23

I am more than grateful, thankful to just say

32:29

God is God and I am not, and that I will never understand about him until that day

32:38

I get to meet him. Well, right here, Job 38. Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

32:49

Dress for action like a man. I will question you and you make it known to me.

32:54

Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements?

33:02

Surely you know. Or who stretched the line upon it? I mean, this,

33:07

Job 38 will just wreck you. I mean, you'll realize,

33:13

I mean, like when you look at the cosmos, man, it's like, have you ever looked through a telescope?

33:20

I mean, just seeing, yeah, man, it's amazing. I would love to, I mean, seeing some of those pictures from NASA, I love following NASA on Instagram and just, you know, different pictures of the galaxy or whatever, just our galaxy.

33:33

I don't even know. I mean, I'm sure there's other galaxies that they can find now. But, you know, I know that there are, they do say that there are billions of galaxies, but it's just like how small we are, you know?

33:47

Like, I mean, on this planet, even this planet is just so small.

33:52

It's so finite. Yeah, to all of it. But God holds it all together. Oh, absolutely.

33:59

And, but, you know, again, He hears us, you know, when we pray. Yeah. You know?

34:05

Well, that's the amazing thing. So you have this juxtaposition of being so small, tiny, insignificant in comparison to God, but then having

34:17

Him sacrifice His divinity to save us, speak to us, have a relationship with us.

34:23

You're like, how am I even? Yeah. You know? And you're so right. Like nature, you know,

34:28

Psalms says it throughout Psalms, like nature reflects the glory of God. Right. And I've said it before, man. I don't feel more in tune with the

34:36

Lord than when I'm reading my Bible out in nature. Yeah. And I think it really is, like Proverbs says, the fool looks at the mountain, looks at the waterfall, and says, oh, there is no

34:47

God. Right, right. You know, Ecclesiastes talks about it. Like you just said, wait, what verse did you just say?

34:55

Oh, we just, yeah, we just read parts of Job 38. Job 38, thank you. Wow, had a little. Yeah, laid the foundation of the earth.

35:03

I mean. Yeah, so in Job, it's God getting really kind of righteously indignant and snarky, and I kind of like it.

35:13

Yeah. Because He just says, look it, were you there when I laid the foundations of the world? Please, go ahead, tell me, oh man.

35:19

Tell me about it. Tell me how long they are, how far they are. I told the sea where to stop. I held up the sea and the mountains, you know,

35:27

I laid the rivers and deep of the ocean. I, you know, did you create all these things? And Job was just wrecked.

35:34

Right. Because he realizes how insignificant he is in comparison to God. And I think, you know, most modern

35:42

Christians, you know, Christians nowadays, we would do really well to kind of, just kind of walk in that sense a little bit more.

35:51

Yeah. Because in America, we're so blessed, we have so many freedoms, we're so wealthy, for the most part, you know, if you make more than $24 ,000 a year, you're in the global 1 % in the

36:02

United States. You know, because those political arguments, remember stuff going on for a year, you're a 1 % and I'm like, well, globally, if you make over $24 ,000, if you make $5 ,000 more a year than our poverty line here in the

36:16

United States, you are in the global 1%. That tells you how bad the rest of the world has it.

36:23

Right. The third world countries, you know, so we have all this wealth, all this freedom, and I think we start kind of getting a little puffed up and a little comfortable and going, well, you know,

36:34

God's my buddy. Right. He can help me out with a financial situation now and then, maybe I pray to him if, you know, someone's got a hard time.

36:42

But for the most part, do I really need God? Is he really? And I think that's why we see atheism exploding and we see secularism and hedonism and all these things.

36:54

And you can literally sit down with someone and explain the most intricate, crazy thing in nature and they're like, oh, yeah, man, mother nature is like so cool.

37:06

And it's like, well, no, God. Right. The creator. Oh, no, I don't really believe in that. You know, we even have substitute words for things.

37:14

I was talking to a guy and he could not say intelligent designer creator. He just stopped saying mother nature. Well, what are you saying then?

37:21

Well, just this force that's out there. Okay, well, it's such a veil over our eyes.

37:27

But, you know, I just pray that every one of those people have an encounter with a

37:32

Job encounter with the Lord. Yeah. Because it'll knock you on your butt. Yeah. On your face. Yeah.

37:37

Yeah, it does go into some different areas. Whenever you're speaking to someone that, you know, you're trying to share the gospel.

37:51

And they're trying to, you know, tell you their side of the story from their worldview, which you've heard and you know that the creation was made by Christ, you know, and they want to worship the creation.

38:09

We worship the creator that made the creation. Right. Like, yeah, the creation is beautiful, it's expansive, it's amazing, you know.

38:19

But, you know, we don't, we don't cast our, you know, cares and stuff on that.

38:28

No, absolutely. But yeah. That's like the Native Americans I've always been very interested in and because they're just like a little bit off.

38:36

They understand, you know, the whole circle of life and nature and how that works.

38:43

But they kind of, they don't understand to not worship the creation.

38:48

They need to worship the creator. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's in Romans. Romans. Yeah. I would have to find the verse.

38:56

I'm sorry. And I love how much they appreciate nature and they appreciate the creation.

39:02

I just wish, you know, they're just a little bit off on worshiping that instead of worshiping the one who created it.

39:08

You know, so that's always been very interesting to me because there's about 90 % of where I'm just like so on board with, with, yeah,

39:16

I understand it is, you know, because the Bible calls even creation a common type of grace.

39:23

The fact that you have materials that you can make shelter out of when it rains is, you know, and the fact that it rains and waters and you have the, you know, evaporation cycles and all these things, even that is a type of grace, you know.

39:38

But what were you trying to look up there? It says something about the creature worshiping the creation rather than the creator.

39:52

But I'd have to, I'd have to dig for that one, man. Or Google. Anybody got

39:57

Google out there? Or you might already have the verse memorized out there. That's one thing that I really need to work on, man.

40:05

I know verses and I know they're in the

40:11

Word. But, I mean, a lot of times I can't remember where I read it, you know.

40:19

Right. This is probably, you know, the two years into really digging into the

40:26

Word for myself anyway. I'm a 39 -year -old Christian that has only read his

40:33

Bible for two years. That's better than no years. You're right.

40:39

Yeah, I think you were thinking it but real quick, Romans 125. Yeah, that sounds right. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served created things rather than the creator who was forever praised.

40:50

That's the one. So, yeah, Romans 125 I think is what you were referencing there. But, no, that, that's good though.

41:02

Yeah. Digging into the Word. Yeah. You know, even in the last two years, like I said, that's better than no years.

41:08

Right. Well, I've met people who profusely dig into the

41:14

Word and in prayer and just studying and reading and listening for two years or a year or even six months than people who've been going to church for 30 years.

41:24

Right. And I know that sounds like a cliche statement, but it is so true.

41:29

It's important to get in there yourself because, I mean, a lot of times the, well,

41:36

I shouldn't say a lot of times. I mean, you know, you could be going to a church that maybe the pastor just continually pulls something out from five years ago.

41:45

You know, it's just like, I'm going to preach on this again. And, you know, he's not really refining what he's teaching.

41:53

He's not really bringing the congregation into, you know, learning more about the

41:58

Word, you know, and it's just kind of just a watered down, you know.

42:04

Yeah, what I've kind of found is like a lot of churches and sermons kind of are these like little pre -packaged 30 minute 25 to 45, yeah, three to five points.

42:19

No pun intended. That don't really dig into anything. That just kind of, they're almost like a, like a life lesson.

42:28

Right. Or a motivational speaker type. Oh, yeah, man. And they use some Bible verses to back it up.

42:36

But I've sat in so many sermons and seen a Bible verse used for something other like secondary use to prove a point and I just go, really dug in to that verse in context.

42:52

We can have like a two hour on fire sermon Right. about a deep theological or doctrinal issue instead of just using it for like,

43:01

God doesn't want you to stress out about finances. Right. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I just feel like it does the

43:06

Bible disservice. I mean, James said, there's not enough books or pages in this world to write down all of the, you know, understanding and things that the

43:16

Lord said while here on earth in his ministry. It's like, so why take what limited scriptures we do have in the

43:24

Bible and apply them to some kind of, you know what I mean? Useless kind of, you know,

43:33

Well, I mean, this is, this is where the church is at, you know. Well, a lot of the

43:38

American church, anyway, I'm not sure who all's listening from overseas, but, you know, we get into this, everything about me, almost a psychology of, secular psychology of, you know, you can be better.

43:54

You always have to be on this trajectory. You know, you can't just, you can't just look around and just say, oh my gosh,

44:03

Lord, thank you so much for that, that flower that's in my heart. It might be a dandelion, but you know what?

44:09

That thing is beautiful. I mean, if you ever looked at a dandelion, it's actually pretty. Yeah. One of the prettiest weeds for sure.

44:17

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, but it's just like, it's like in the, in the American church, we always have to be getting to that next level, to that next thing.

44:26

And if you're not, then, you know what? You're not in step with what

44:31

God's trying to do in your life. And that's just not true. You know, I mean, sometimes we just need to sit and listen.

44:39

You know, sometimes we just need to Be still and know that I am the Lord. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I mean, it doesn't, you know, sola scriptura is not me and my

44:49

Bible under a tree, you know, not listening to anyone or anything, but you know, it's like, sometimes you just need that.

44:56

Right. You know, sometimes you just need to look at, look at your life and just say, you know what?

45:02

What am I so stressed out about? Like, why am I, why am I stressed out? Why, why am

45:07

I going through this stuff? And I really think a lot of times, uh, the

45:12

American church puts more stress on people than just saying, yeah, be still and know that he is the

45:20

Lord. Um, but yeah, kind of plays into the stress too. When you have pastors that are kind of keeping up with the

45:27

Joneses within their own community, dressing up, speaking a certain way, having a certain lifestyle.

45:34

Uh, and I'm talking about small churches right up to the mega churches. And then they're almost into that secular view of running the rat race and keeping up with the

45:46

Joneses and kind of having certain standard of living when in fact, uh, the

45:51

Bible just says in whatever situation that God has put you in, A, be grateful,

45:57

B, his grace is enough. Uh, and it's, it's just, it's just because we have so many brothers and sisters across this globe right now in China, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, uh,

46:12

Kuwait, um, New Jersey, Russia, California, California that are being,

46:19

I was going to say that are, you know, that are, that are being tortured and jailed and persecuted.

46:24

Right. And it's just so hard for me to get in on this

46:30

American Christianese kind of, uh, vibe that we have going on here.

46:36

Like I do my church, I get my Starbucks before I go meet someone at a, you know, at a little cafe and we talk for 20 minutes and it's like they have this whole kind of Christian lifestyle.

46:46

And you say to the brother, you say, Jesus loves you, man. Well, he does.

46:52

Yeah, I know. But in like the hippie sense. Oh, right. Like he just loves you, man.

46:59

Yeah. Like everything you're doing. Like when you, when you speak to an unbeliever that, uh, you know, may need, may, may or not be, may need to hear that word, but may or may not be living in a way that maybe

47:13

Jesus would love. Well, Romans one, maybe, uh, look at that would bring into some context there, right?

47:21

I was just talking to someone. I had breakfast with a couple of brothers in the Lord, uh, yesterday and, and he has said this multiple times from the pulpit.

47:29

And I totally agree. He goes, look at if you're going out and you're witnessing to people and you're telling people, Jesus loves you just the way you are, man, right?

47:35

We are. He'll, he'll come, you know, he's like, uh, not only is that a false gospel, but like, do they need to be saved then?

47:44

Like why if, if Jesus loves you just the way you are, right? Then no work on the cross was necessary.

47:51

No repentance is necessary. No believing, uh, on who Christ is as necessary.

47:57

It's like what a horrible message to send to people, right? It's, you know, it's kinda a little bit of like the

48:03

Ray comfort, which I'm not really big on his style, but it is like you have to recognize that you're a sinner and that you have broken his law and you're, and you're unrighteous, right?

48:13

And a thief and you've right. I haven't killed, but well, well, if you, what is, if you, if you thought if you've hated your brother, you've sure you've committed it in your heart, right?

48:23

Yeah. I mean, Jesus totally did raise the bar, uh, when he fulfilled the law, but, um, all right, so let's, let's get back to rounding up here on unconditional election.

48:32

I know we got off a little bit, um, but yeah, so for me, unconditional election, uh, is, is in point two of tulip.

48:41

I know we did total depravity last time and unconditional election this time. This is another easy one for me, uh, because I know for a fact

48:49

I'm a horrible person and there was nothing good in me that wanted God. And I was running from him and, you know, doing whatever

48:55

I wanted to do. And I know I've told my testimony on here a little bit before, um, that he absolutely thank

49:03

God that election, you know, yeah. On what I did on what merits

49:08

I had, what, what good works I, I did. Um, this one, I find comfort and solace take solace in because it's unconditional.

49:18

I got a few verses here for us. John six 37, all that the father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me,

49:27

I will never cast out. That'll be a good one for the, uh, P for perseverance of the saints.

49:34

Oh, yeah. We'll bring a lot of these back through that was in John six. So we could just read John six and John 10 through a lot of this, uh,

49:41

Matthew 22, 14 for many are called, but few are chosen. Um, John 15, 16, you really quick though.

49:52

I think that's read that one again, which one are called near called, but few are chosen.

49:58

That's a tough one to refute if you're kind of in the other camp, right? And you don't, you know, you don't believe in the doctrines of grace.

50:04

I mean, that is so straightforward, right? So many are called, but fewer chosen. So there's a, there's a difference between called and chosen.

50:11

The act is on God and the choosing there, right? Go ahead. Uh, John 15, 16, you did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide.

50:28

So that whatever you ask the, the father in my name, he may give it to you. Now I have heard the argument that in context, some people say that verse,

50:40

Christ is talking to the disciples and saying, I chose you, the disciples, Okay. And I say, okay, even if he is, yeah, uh, the father did give him to him.

50:50

The father did give him to him and he chose him. So are you saying, Hey, I believe that just Jesus is death, uh, life, death and resurrection was pure ordained and those 12 guys.

51:01

Yeah. But everyone else in human history, no, God didn't have any, uh, say in their salvation.

51:07

They had to choose them. It's like that argument doesn't really vibe for me. So even if Christ was talking directly and saying,

51:14

I chose you, you didn't chose me. Okay. So then what? He just chose those 12, 12 people out of the 400 trillion people that have been on earth, you know, are predestined and the rest aren't.

51:26

So that doesn't really fly for me, but you got any more before we wrap up? let's go with one more from the golden chain.

51:34

Romans eight 29. Um, we'll see how far I go here for those whom he foreknew.

51:41

He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the first among many brothers.

51:48

Amen. Predestined. Oh, well, and 30 we could.

51:54

Well, this, this might be with limited atonement as well. 28 through.

51:59

Yeah, but yeah, and, and, and here's one that I'll end with for me, uh, which is one of my favorites is

52:07

Ephesians one 11. Also, we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to his purpose.

52:15

And this is my favorite part who works all things after the counsel of his will, not some things, not good things, not just evil things, all things work to the counsel of whose will

52:28

God's will. And for me, uh, I can lay down at night, put my head on the pillow and feel comforted that I serve a

52:36

God that works all things out for the counsel of his will into his glory. And then on the back end, on the flip side of that promise, everything that, uh, comes in, that I come in contact with or any situations that I find myself in, whether good or bad, it says his grace is enough.

52:53

Right. I mean, that is a heavy and sweet promise.

52:58

I mean, to the point of, you know, I can get emotional just thinking about that.

53:05

And not to, not to get off the subject here, but when I talk to people about that, you know, when

53:14

I find people really understanding the doctrines of grace is when they're going through an affliction or when a family member, close family or friend member pass away, it's like everyone really becomes a,

53:28

God is in control and his grace is enough. And, you know, he works, every, you know, every funeral

53:37

I've ever been to, it's like, well, God has a plan. Right. And, you know, we don't know, we don't know how he's going to even work through this death.

53:45

It's like, boy, do we really start clinging to the doctrines of biblical grace when bad things happen to us?

53:53

Oh, yeah. But when things are going okay, it's almost like, eh, we don't need it. Right. You know? And I'm not trying to impugn anyone, but I've just noticed, and I've been to many funerals, you know, just went to one a few days ago, where that kind of language starts to come out when, when we're going through an affliction or a valley or a tough season.

54:17

And it's really sad because most of the Western Christian church is now preaching a gospel that wants to avoid that.

54:25

Like, live your best life, blessings, financial security, freedom, and want to avoid all the valleys.

54:34

Right. When in fact, you know, John Piper says it so, so beautifully that like, don't ever let me pray myself out of affliction until I've learned through my affliction.

54:45

Right. Like Job said. Right. because I'm afflicted right now, I have, I have known who

54:51

God is. I have seen the face of God. We should glory in those times of trials.

54:57

Right. Because one, His grace is enough, but two, it brings us, you know, in our hours made known.

55:04

And, I don't know really what that has to do with unconditional election, but that was, that's my, that's my parentheses on the episode there.

55:13

That's definitely, I dig it. Cool. Anything else for the listeners before we go? Um, just the

55:20

Jesus is real. I love it. Every episode you say it, and you should keep saying it because it's now your tagline.

55:27

Amen. But for anyone listening, uh, right now, if you've made it through to the 57th minute, it might be actually a little less than that by the time

55:35

I edited it down since we had phones ringing and everything else in the background. Uh, always feel free to reach out to us on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube, dead men walking podcast for all three of those.

55:46

Very easy to get ahold of us. If you have any suggestions for future episodes, feel free to direct message us there and we can talk about it.