Tim Staples the Bible Scholar

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a

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Tuesday morning just about to finish up the month of April and That means here in the

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Phoenix area. We're getting ready to batten down the hatches Wrap ourselves in asbestos and get ready for Yeah, it's

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Well global warming man. It's Everything should just be you know, absolutely, you know a blaze you clearly have never worn asbestos.

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Um, no It's hotter inside than it is Okay whatever it's gonna be hot and But we haven't hit a hundred yet.

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We came close, but we haven't hit a hundred degrees yet So we always have these contests out here in Phoenix as to predicting the first day of triple digits

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Which I don't know been pretty cool. Well, it's been the mid 90s We've seen a hundred a hundred degree days in the middle of March.

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Oh, I know. I Remember well riding in Altura. I'm telling you the next ice age is coming.

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I it may be I remember riding an Altura to Phoenix and it was the first weekend in April and hit a hundred and four that day

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So, yeah, I'm not I ain't complaining that it hasn't hit a hundred yet. I have a bunch of sound clips

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James Swan went nuts Sending me sound clips just sound clips and sound clips. I know some of them.

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I've listened to one or two some I have not So it's sort of like we get to hear How how you respond to stuff you haven't actually heard before?

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But the first one caught my attention Or some Tim Staples sound clips and I've mentioned many times we have attempted to get mr

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Staples to do some debates over the past few years a rather large church.

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I would think it'd be a perfect venue In Santa Fe attempted to arrange a debate between myself and mr.

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Staples for September of this year, but he was busy and And We just haven't been able to work anything out.

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He's just always very very very busy He must be booked like three or four years down the road, I guess. I don't know

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But we keep we keep trying anyway, and so one of these was about Catholic answers view on debates now remember a couple things

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Used to be back in the night late 1980s Catholic answers was very busily challenging people to debate

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They published a tract in which they told people, you know If you hear someone preaching against the church challenge them to debate will send a representative will debate them and the yet Jerry Matta ticks running around and Carl Keating was doing debates and so on and so forth and the first challenges

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I ever received to debate were of course from Catholic answers as well and So it's interesting to listen to this clip about how things have changed and it's also fascinating Yeah, listen to this first caller and and listen to the people that he links together

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You might find somewhat somewhat humorous. I used to listen to Protestant theologians such as RC Sproul John Eckenberg guys like John Hagee these people that have all this influence on the radio and TV and Basically, you're putting out a lot of false information and fallacious reasoning to justify, you know

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Their claims against the Catholic Church, and I'm just curious when there's when would you or have you or yourself or dr

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Hahn debated with these guys and how could we get that right out there, right?

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Well, most of those folks that you're talking about won't debate From time to time, you know, normally we especially here at Catholic answers don't challenge folks to debates.

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We get challenged all the time however, I have Challenged a number of these folks to debate and most of the time you find that they don't debate at all

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But we at Catholic answers are open to it and we do debates fairly regularly in fact

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I have one you probably saw it saw it there Joe at the conference called Staples versus Greg a

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Five -day debate that I did with a Protestant apologist up in Salinas, California that went very very well very respectful

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Dialogue and it's available here at Catholic answers Staples versus Greg faith under fire five -day debate

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We had everything from you know Sola scriptura to the authority of the Pope to the

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Eucharist to Mary and more we got a lot accomplished there I I kind of like that You know the five days to where you can really get something done better than say a one

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Day format hard to do it a short about it is it really is but yeah, Joe keep your your eyes -and -ears open because I know we have

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Debates and our producer of this radio show. In fact that has some Hopeful debates in in the works right now.

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So just stay in touch Because we have Catholic answers do debates from time to time

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You've probably heard of some of our founder Carl Keating's debates. He's done some some really good ones over the years as well

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Of course, we've had a standing challenge to Carl for I don't know. It's at least a decade now

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I would assume And they're working on more debates. Just just not any with yours truly for some odd strange reason

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I'm not sure really why that is but I mean, you know, I've mentioned many times Tim Staples is doing all this stuff on Mary.

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He's got CDs on Mary and books on Mary and we've never debated Mary with Tim Staples only debate him twice and I didn't you know,

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I you know, I hear him pushing the Steve Gregg debate there you know and I didn't hear him pushing our debate on papal infallibility from 2000 -Fullerton,

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I you know, I in fact, I don't think you can get that from anybody but us

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Oh well now now what part of you know, you might say

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I you're just picking on poor Tim. Well, you know Here's a commercial we're gonna play a commercial for a

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Catholic answers on the dividing line. How's this? Isn't that great? We're gonna play a

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Catholic answers commercial for Catholic answers. There you go. We won't even charge him a dime There we're gonna get their word out to an audience

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They just they must just love that we're getting the word out to this audience I want you to listen to the description of Tim Staples Now my understanding is

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Tim Staples is a graduate of Jimmy Swagger Bible College And I don't know what he's done since then

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I I don't know where he's gone to school. I if he's teaching somewhere

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I'm not sure how he'd have time to teach anywhere But it's possible.

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I mean, I've been busy in a one -armed paper hanger recently and and I'm I just had a class last night finishing up this semester teaching for a

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Golden Gate on the subject of Islam and And So I you know, maybe

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Tim is teaching for a Catholic school, I'm sorry, I can't stand it Well, it just takes a lot longer to teach

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Catholics. Oh Why is that? I don't know. It just clearly is a lot more time dedication is required.

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That's why I just tie it up I don't know. Is that well, what is that's why that's why it's busy. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Oh, no

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No, no, he's busy cuz he's traveling everywhere. I mean if you listen to Catholic answers live They're constantly they used to have this commercial, you know, get help us to get rid of tip staples

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That means we want to be in your parish rather than sitting around here, you know in this very expensive place to live called

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San Diego, but anyway, listen to the description of Tim Staples not honestly if you ever heard if you ever heard

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Us run a commercial like this, you know, Jimmy Akin and his people would be all over us so fast

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Let me show you what I'm talking about Tim Staples has done it again He's taken some of the trickiest

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Catholic teachings and made them easy for anyone to understand Catholics and non -catholics alike

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Log on to Catholic comm to order the brand new audio set the truth about purgatory and indulgences

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As you may know these two areas present some of the greatest difficulties for our non -catholic friends

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Why even many Catholics fail to fully comprehend what they're all about? That's why Tim Staples one of the church's foremost

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Bible scholars has tackled them for you Now in this new audio set you'll learn what purgatory is and what it's not all backed up with plenty of scriptural evidence

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The same for indulgences another difficult to understand area of Catholic teaching Ordered the truth about purgatory and indulgences today from Catholic answers by calling oops

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Oh it honestly it faded out before I would like to hear it myself

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I need order I need to order that in because I want to hear what one of the Catholic churches for most

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Bible scholars has to say that isn't that what it said for most

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Bible scholars, let's let's let me see if I let me make sure I heard that even many Catholics fail to fully comprehend what they're all

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About that's why Tim Staples one of the church's foremost Bible scholars one of the church's foremost

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Bible scholars So I would assume That that means that mr.

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Staples has learned Greek and Hebrew Maybe done some teaching in those areas something along those lines

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So, I don't know why he wouldn't be up for debating Mary now I mean because he is by his own organization's proclamation one of the church's foremost

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Bible Scholars and so there there you go foremost foremost

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Bible scholars right there. I Had no idea that I had been taking on someone of that's clearly far beyond for I mean at least according to Guardian and folks

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Like that far beyond my range of abilities. I mean, I'm playing with the big boys

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I'm way out of my league in in those situations. I must be because they they foremost

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Bible scholar I Need to get on the Catholic answers website and find out, you know when

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Tim Graduated and we're you know where he's been teaching and what those publications are and stuff like that I'd like to see where all that stuff is be very very interesting

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Mmm, okay continuing on with the Tim Staples quotations.

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Oh Sometimes we have far too much fun on the program and you can do that when you don't have affiliates down the line

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Who get angry with you for whatever you say we can say what we want to say at least for now

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Until big brother starts, you know trying to shut everything down which will happen eventually. So anyway, this next one is

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Tim Staples and talking about Calvinism and Do you get the feeling do you really get the feeling that any of these folks have ever read?

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Much reformed stuff. I mean, of course, we just had had RC Sproul and John Hagee thrown together thrown together by the previous scholars so You know

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Can't really expect folks on that side of the aisle to really know the difference But they they must especially people if you're the foremost

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Bible scholar one of the foremost Bible scholars in the Catholic Church Do you read?

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Calvin do you you know? Other than just little quotes. Do you read some of RC Sproul maybe?

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Maybe read something I've written on the subject of Calvinism I mean my name does come up on the program once in a while You would think it might be a good idea to read.

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What's I certainly buy their books see what so see what's up Well, anyways, here's here's a discussion of a little bit of discussion of Calvinism and guess which passages end up being cited yet again,

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I I had gotten into a discussion about apologetics with a Calvinist person and their whole thing on predestination.

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I guess is based on I think it's in the Philippians Yeah, I believe we're by the way Isn't it grand that we can find all these phone calls where all these

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Catholics are running into Calvinists who are sharing their faith? I thought Calvinists didn't evangelize in Fact it's it's according to Bob Ross It seems it's

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Calvinists that are the problem with the southern maps convention had Decreased numbers of baptisms and stuff like that.

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I mean, he's just got he has gone so loopy recently every day RSS reader and there's at least two sometimes three four posts against the founders and Anybody who once thought that man was even slightly reformed should recognize by now that that he's

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Completely lost it. But anyways, I Thought I thought Calvinist didn't do evangelism, but all these

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Catholics keep running into Calvinist basically, you know those he ordained he predestined, right? That's not

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Philippians sir, that's Book of Romans. Yes, we might want to figure out where that's coming from. That's Romans 829

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Foremost Bible scholar did know exactly Talking to me about it and and you know

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The argument sounded compelling and and the only thing I could think of was was it's not so much

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Aquinas But it is partially his the difference between the eternal or and the or the absolute and the ordained powers of God Mm -hmm and and and God's nature in being don't you love how we're looking at Romans?

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Okay, we're looking first century and what's the first thing that the Roman Catholic thinks of jumping to?

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Aquinas Which if your church history isn't all that good is not exactly first century.

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In fact, not exactly first millennium Look at that way

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But that's first first place to go. Boom Not not exegesis not not what the original author intended

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But that way, you know We made something up long long after that and try to fit all the stuff together eternal where time really doesn't matter for him

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And and I talked to somebody is no time with him. Yeah, there is no time with him

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And I talked to my philosophy of religion professor and he and he's Lutheran But he's very

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Roman Catholic and is thinking sometimes and he he told me that that you know Arguing that way with them that won't make it

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Like they'll still argue. Well, you know, you know Even though God isn't actively choosing who gets into heaven and stuff like that You know,

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I mean it ends up becoming then that like they'll still argue well, you know his is inaction causes him to be a

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Or causes him to be choosing these people to be the elect. So he's curious about predestination. You got it.

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All right. Here's the key You Touched on two of the major schools of Protestant thought here

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There are the the five -point Calvinists who teach what's called double predestination, right?

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God, you know positively acts wills for people to go to hell and others to go to heaven

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And then you have the more Lutheran Understanding of why am

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I not utterly and completely shocked that one of the foremost Bible scholars in the

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Roman Catholic Church Not one of the four but one of the foremost Bible scholars in the

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Catholic Church would like So many Southern Baptists and like Jimmy Swaggart and like everybody else confuse the positive gracious extension of Of mercy that results in the election of people unto salvation and Reprobation which does not involve of course the extension of mercy at all in in any way shape or form

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But make the two absolutely equal to each other. Why am I not confused surprised whatsoever? You know,

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I mean the Armenians do that but we are talking about one of the foremost Bible scholars in the

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Catholic Church I would expect a little more accuracy because once you're one of the foremost then

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Accuracy is is very important passive reprobation, which which means it's not a double predestination but God chooses those who are going to go to heaven single predestination, but he then

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Allows the rest to drop off into hell that's called passive reprobation both of those positions are incompatible with Catholic teaching and Incompatible with Scripture, I find it somewhat interesting that just recently

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Steve Ray posted about a Roman Catholic gentleman who has started posting some videos in response to me who calls himself a

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Thomist and who very Clearly embraces the concepts of predestination election and so on so forth

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And so you'll get this one side saying well see You're wrong for criticizing us because you know, you can believe this and be a

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Catholic and then you go over here and well actually, you know those things you can't believe and be a

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Catholic and Rarely, do you get these folks actually together to find out? you know just how big the

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Catholic tent really is that unity thing just you know, the more you more you dig into it the the less

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Unified it all seems to mean what we understand as Catholics as and you might want to look at the

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Catechism in paragraph 600 To God all moments of time are present in their immediacy.

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That's what you were getting at a moment ago there when therefore he establishes his eternal plan of Predestination he includes in it each person's free response to his grace.

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So yes God knows Obviously, there's nothing he does not know but within God's and and you might want to look again there at Romans 829 because within this eternal this

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Providence we could put up another category here the providence of God Under which we would have the knowledge of God the infinite knowledge of God and the predestination of God because within God's providence there are those who are

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Predestined to heaven and they are predestined out of God's You know immeasurable infinite grace and mercy and he calls he chooses them

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Now the fact that they he chooses him doesn't mean they don't have to choose him. I've used this before in this broadcast

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You know the 1984 NBA draft when Michael Jordan was chosen by the

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Chicago Bulls Right, Sam Bowie was chosen first and that was the biggest mistake in NBA history

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But Jordan was chosen second by the Chicago Bulls now, he would have never chosen the

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Bulls. They were terrible at that time They were perennial losers But the fact that we still today say that the

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Bulls chose Michael Jordan Doesn't mean that he didn't have to then respond and sign the contract and he could have said no and all of that sort of thing

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Wow, when you try to get around God's sovereignty, it's just sounds so bad

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I mean, what was the illustration somebody was using just recently it was just oh Oh the

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What Steve Gregg was using and was it a banquet or no bowling?

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Well, I forget what it was He he was using that you get invited to or something but but when all these wonderful illustrations that people try to come up with to get around the the

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Priority of God's action and the certainty of God's action. They always sound really bad

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So when we talk about choosing and God's predestined planned and such it is

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God Who takes the initiative? It's his grace without his grace. We cannot choose him

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What so we wouldn't even think of choosing him any more than Jordan would have thought about choosing the Bulls All right, but the key is this what we need to understand is within that providence of God where where God knows all and predestined some

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It doesn't mean that God doesn't will Everyone to be in heaven and this is the biggest mistake that folks made in both of those

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Protestant schools It's it's almost just omitting the plain words of Scripture Do they call over Scripture first Timothy 2 for God wills all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth

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Second Peter 3 9 God is not willing that any should perish But that all should come to repentance and one of my favorites is

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Matthew chapter 23 I think it's verses 57 right there right at the end of the chapter

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They're down to about verse 62 as I recall where Jesus himself says concerning that the

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Jews wait a minute He's one of the four most Bible scholars. I would think that he would know how many verses are in Matthew chapter 23

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But he says, you know Jerusalem Jerusalem now that kills the prophets how often

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I would have gathered As a mother gathers her hands, but you would not

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The foremost Bible scholars of the Roman Catholic Church Cannot quote Matt's 2337 without letting the tradition get in the way

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How many times have we heard I've heard Norman Geisler to that Dave Hunt do that? It's not what it says go look it up.

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We got we lost the children again We lost the the key thing because the main thing they want they what they expect the text to say is how often would

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I have? gathered you But you would not so that you insert this concept of man's sovereignty.

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And there you go The one of the foremost Bible scholars Roman Catholic Church Misciting Matthew 2337 in the same way

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Armenians do constantly. Hmm. I wonder why that is Therefore now that thy house shall be left unto thee desolate

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It's not that God doesn't will as the double Predestination folks teach and those who teach the single predestination and passive reprobation that God simply lets those go to hell

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They have no chance for heaven because God doesn't you know, give them the grace to get to heaven.

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No Jesus makes very plain st. Paul makes very plain st. Peter makes very plain that God actively gives grace to all

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Sufficient grace to get to heaven We if we reject that grace will be responsible for our own damnation

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Well, there you go. I James Swan had not told me maybe didn't even notice because it's just so common that he told me the big three were there

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But not that he had miss cited Matthew 2337 as is the common Practice of so many and and it's not purposeful

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I don't believe that he was looking at that phrase and I'm not gonna say that no

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It's because they think the text says something and so that's what they see

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The tradition overrides the actual letters written on the page and there there you go, so Unbelievable Unbelievable, so Oh tired of tired of New Jersey's in the newest

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New Horizons magazine I'll have to have to try to track that down. Whatever channel regular. It's just a little

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You know trivia flying past play it fine playing past me as we're going here. Okay, so, um,

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I Don't know so far I'm I'm It's it's a little bit odd that one of the the foremost

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Bible scholars of the the Catholic Church is Hasn't been overly accurate so far in in the

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Bible part so let's let's listen to some more of Tim Staples here and Of course, we can take your phone calls as well at eight seven seven seven five three three, three four one

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And of course, you know if Tim Staples like to call in and explain I Would really really really really really like to hear

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Tim Staples explanation his counter exegesis of Second Peter three nine first into two four and Matthew 23 37.

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I would be really interested if he even knows What reformed folks what many reformed folks have said concerning some of those those texts but Our phone lines are open to them

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No, no, no doubt about that and our phone lines are open to Guardian as well I mean we want we need to sort of make sure that Guardian understands that that he's loved and he's he's

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He's wanted and that that list Which seemed to you know, when he first talked about seemed to be something he had in his hand, but he doesn't

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Never call in and provide it. But anyways, let's let's listen to a little more of Tim Staples here

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What? Because I'm you know, and I feel that I'm a non -denominationalist as far as Christians go

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How is that viewed from your guys's standpoint? Am I going to be saved in my religion if I believe that?

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Right and stand firm on the things of God in the Bible, right? Well Jason, here's the key

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We are not and the Catholic Church is not your judge. God is So what we say is we leave the judging to God.

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However on the objective level we say That Jesus Christ established the

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Catholic Church 2 ,000 years ago. That is a matter of history. That's a historical fact Jesus established a church.

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We see that in Scripture Matthew 18 15 through 18 For example in many other verses we could look at that's historically verifiable

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And so anyone who would willfully reject the church that Jesus Christ Established will not be in heaven

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All right You will not no one me and if I reject the Catholic Church I will be lost because the church is

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Jesus Christ in this world Ephesians chapter 1 verse 22 and 23 says the church is the fullness of Jesus Christ If you ever wanted to hear a better reason to oppose

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Romanism, and that's Romanism, you know people get all oh That's not nice. No, that is

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Romanism when you identify a particular organization that in its modern

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Establishment is based upon historical frauds. It is based upon politics and all sorts of historical events that have nothing to do with Christ's establishment of his church an

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Organization that in its history has persecuted and killed Christ Saints that continues to promote false doctrine about the gospel of Jesus Christ when you equate that with Jesus himself

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So that to reject the one is to reject the other that's called Romanism.

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That is called Turning that that's not Christianity Christianity is a description of that which is focused upon Christ here

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Something which is focused upon Rome and that's why it's called Romanism and That's what you've got here.

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And this is quote -unquote evangelizing. This is how you this is how you witness to people. I Mean if a

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Roman Catholic called this this this program Do you think this is how

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I'd respond to him if a Roman Catholic called him said hey, I'm a Roman Catholic You know, what do you think's gonna happen to me?

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What would be my response everybody in this audience even my enemies know my response would be that it would be to focus upon the gospel of Christ and one's relationship to him and What's the first thing

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Staples does Rome Rome Rome Rome Rome Rome Rome Rome? that's why it is

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Romanism and that is a perfectly acceptable description of a religion that is based upon Rome as the

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Symbol the representation of Christ today that's Roman in this world.

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So if they reject you they reject me Jesus says in Luke 1016 Concerning the church and in Matthew 1040.

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All right, but we and now having said that that's an objective truth Having said that we also acknowledge that there are people who are outside the visible boundaries of the church through no fault of their own

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They've been raised in these Protestant denominations and non -denominational denominations as I call them but and various other

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Religions and they are honestly seeking God. We believe there is a possibility. We don't say you're going to be saved

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We simply say there is a possibility of salvation to catch Another reason why theology matters there.

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He says they're they're honestly seeking God And that this this this is a slippery slope that leads right into their discussions of Islam You know, they're seeking

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God too and all these other people and that's why Functionally so many in Roman Catholicism today are at least inclusivist if not

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Universalist, but I'm gonna pause it there. We'll finish his discussion with the non -denominational denominationalist on And also take your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one right after this

31:04

Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior We are to come before the

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Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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Thank you Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

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The charges are as follows Prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

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And welcome back to the dividing line Let's finish up this clip and then start taking our phone calls because we got a number of them lining up here now if in fact these people are in number one invincibly ignorant, which means they're not responsible for their ignorance of the fullness of the truth and They're seeking

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God the best way they can given the grace of God that they have been given They have supernatural faith and supernatural charity in their hearts

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There is that possibility of salvation, but we as Catholics acknowledge that everybody needs

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The Catholic Faith Everyone needs the sacraments that Jesus instituted and that's why we evangelize to bring people into the fullness of faith where you can have a level of certainty of Salvation that you cannot have anywhere else.

34:09

You can hear the priest say I absolve you of your sins Maybe the Father Son Holy Spirit Is it it must really be rough to have to try to hold together?

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This this massively wide system of beliefs

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Where you'll find a priest over here who's who's a rank universalist and you find a conservative over here who's who's that goes back to the

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Council of Trenton and I you know, I That a part of me was tempted for about the same amount of time.

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The data was tempted in that one Star Trek movie First contact

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Is is tempted to just to feel sorry for Catholic apologists. How long it was it?

34:51

It was less than a quarter of a second as I recall is how long it was tempted Which for an Android is an eternity, but anyway,

34:58

I just revealed something about myself. I probably should know there. Huh? Anyway As if anybody didn't already know that I have a have a tricky background.

35:09

But anyway It's tough to defend this system and to not chuckle in the process it really is

35:16

I mean You start off with anyone who knowingly rejects the church, but those Muslims over there

35:23

Who are rejecting Christ to rejecting the deity of Christ to the cross yet? they're worshipping God and they're part of the plan of salvation and Trying to hold this stuff together is just really really really difficult.

35:35

I I can't it's it's it's a tough thing. So Anyway Let's let's start getting to some of our phone calls here or we are going to run out of time

35:44

Let's start off with Dale back in Indiana. Hi Dale. Oh, how are you doing good?

35:50

Hey, I just I was thinking of listening to your Steve Gregg debate the other day He kept talking about how that our minion is and was essentially the default view

35:59

As you read through the Bible it reminded me of a article I read by Spurgeon a while back

36:04

I'm not sure if you're familiar with it is called offensive Calvinism my Spurgeon There's a little passage in there

36:10

It says a born as all of us are by nature in our many and I still believe the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit did not see the grace of God when

36:19

I was coming to Christ I thought I was doing it all myself. And though I thought the Lord earnestly.

36:24

I had no idea if the Lord was seeking me. I Did not think the young convert is at first aware of this

36:30

Other guys just get down a little bit. He says the thought struck me. How did you come to be a Christian? I thought the Lord but how did you come to seek the

36:37

Lord? Truth flashed across my mind in a moment I should not have sought him unless there had been some previous influence of mine.

36:43

I didn't make me seek him So anyway, I kept thinking of that when I kept hearing Greg talk about how that It was that you know the default position and I believe it in a sense it is but the default position of natural man and it requires grace to and the

37:00

Study of God's Word to overcome that default position if you you know, yeah, I I think you're right I mean on on one level of I mentioned briefly the fact that I debated a man

37:10

An atheist who written a book for Prometheus books years and years ago on the Tom like a show when he was still here in Phoenix on KFYI and and Here is a guy who had no religious background

37:21

He's writing as an atheist and he goes Oh Obvious if you just read what the

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Bible says God's in sovereign control of all things and blah blah blah but the point of Spurgeon's making is that When we come into the faith we tend to be very focused upon ourselves and it's a process of grace over time

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That causes us to not only become unfocused upon ourselves But to start to see the priority and sovereignty of God's grace in having brought us to himself in the first place

37:50

And I wasn't I wasn't raised the Calvinist at all And it I it I was dumbfounded

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Went to reform Baptist Church on Wednesday night once and saw the word predestinated because he didn't he didn't stop at Romans 8 28

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He read 29 and continued. Yeah, I was dumbfounded because I always I mean I had laughed at Calvinist because I didn't realize that I just never

38:09

I never read it and to me it was just reading it It was obvious, but I it still took me about four years after that to really admit.

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I Knew it, but I wouldn't admit it for Another four years the unhappy Calvinist.

38:24

Oh, yeah part of it was being around influences that were Well, they didn't take too highly of that all right,

38:34

I fully understand, okay, thanks Dale Yeah, there's no question about it

38:40

I thought that Steve Gregg's assertion that it's the default position was just you know again

38:47

From our perspective as we look at the Bible is like really Yeah, I just constantly see all the time in the

38:55

Old Testament The statements that you know God's will is frustrated man's will is accomplished

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That's that's what I see in Psalm 135 6 and that's what Nebuchadnezzar said in Daniel 4 and no

39:06

I don't that's that's not the case whatsoever. I think it is very much a Situation where that develops over time it's a tradition that is that is brought in eight seven seven seven five three three three four

39:19

One this is interesting. I'm looking at the whole times here and Which one of my which who was first because they're within like nine seconds of each other

39:30

So I don't know how you how you screened them. Okay that one. Okay. Let's go with Joshua.

39:36

Hi, Joshua Hey, dr. White. How you doing? Pretty good. How are things in Gulfport?

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Are they getting back to getting back to normal after? You know hiding from various and sundry

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Major storms. Yeah, not too bad. I'm down on the beach is still pretty rough. But even that's starting to come back now

39:55

So I'll go doing all right. All right my question pretty much like said about evangelism, but um more with the piece up presuppositional technique with but specifically with the

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Eastern Orthodox as you probably know, um there's a lot of resurgence lately with People coming out of at least a nominal reformed basis and going to the

40:21

Eastern Orthodox what what would you suggest as a

40:28

Good point of contact doctrinally and biblically with their theology well a couple things keep in mind a lot of the

40:39

Americanized Eastern Orthodoxy is How do

40:44

I describe it even even sound historical Eastern Orthodox look at some of the

40:50

Americanized versions the Frankie Schaefer version basically and they

40:56

There is a tendency in our culture to systematize that is not a part of of the original

41:06

Eastern Orthodox way of thought okay One of the greatest Frustrations I had when

41:12

I first started trying to dialogue with some some Eastern Orthodox folks many years ago and thankfully I found a guy

41:18

Who was very civil? He was not angry or anything like that and and we were able to have some really good conversations

41:25

And he was willing to explain things to me one of the problems that we have is that real

41:33

Eastern Orthodoxy Does not produce systematic theologies it does not

41:39

It basically looks at the questions that the West asks and says those are not the proper questions

41:45

And they're not being asked in the proper venue Eastern Orthodoxy To understand it and to start dealing with it you need to understand that their theology is expressed in their liturgy

41:57

It's expressed in their prayers. It's expressed in their practices and To ask that you simply summarize those things is to ask them to in essence

42:11

It's sort of how to Is to take just a small part of the reality and and present it as the whole okay?

42:21

That's that's part of the problem and so when we ask questions about justification

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They hear us asking about stuff that really isn't central to their experience and We hear in their responses almost an unwillingness to really want to talk with us

42:41

But in most of the situations we're simply talking past each other because we're using very different worldviews very different paradigms now in the

42:50

West especially with the Frankie Schaefer Ian resurgence You you have the people back in the old countries looking at the

43:02

Eastern Orthodox over here as If they've basically been polluted by both Protestants and Roman Catholics because remember from the true

43:09

Eastern Orthodox perspective Roman Catholics and Protestants are just simply different sides the same coin. Yeah We argue about the same subjects.

43:17

We use the same world worldview etc. Etc and from their perspective we all got lost in 1054 and wandered off into into silliness anyways and so they they make little distinction between us and so they look at these guys and Their concerns and the fact that they're writing against solo scriptura, and they're writing on mysteries of justification going

43:38

Hey, you're just like the Protestants and the Catholics You're think you're not thinking the way you're supposed to be thinking as a real

43:45

Eastern Orthodox person You're taking our words, and you're taking our liturgy, and you're doing those types of things, but You're not expressing you you're still a convert and you really haven't

43:57

Drunk in the the essence of of Orthodoxy and so there's so the experiential nature based the experiential nature and the liturgical nature the the the idea that You know

44:10

I mean all the emphasis on their side is on incarnation It's on Union Theosis It's yeah, it's the mystical stuff.

44:21

It's not so much the the theological stuff and So you have to know which of those two groups you're dealing with and of course a brand new convert is still going to be basically either a

44:35

Protestant or a Catholic whichever route they took to get there with a Mystical veneer, but when you start pushing the worldview is still the same

44:44

It hasn't been transferred over a person who's really making the attempt to go that direction. You know how far have they gotten?

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And how far are they willing to come back to our ways of talking to communicate with you that you know?

44:59

So that's just some of the many things that you have to keep in mind as to you know What group you're talking to what where they are how far they've developed so so so on so forth, but clearly

45:10

You know I like to recommend that people Talk to the folks who have written on this particular subject

45:17

And it's I've had a lot of people who said you need to write on this and read this and I go look there's only so many things you can write well on and right now

45:25

For the foreseeable future. I'm very focused upon Islam, and so I'm not gonna be writing on this subject, but pastor

45:31

Larry Carino back on Long Island Has been dealing with this particular subject for for a while now, and so he's he's been on Iron sharpens iron and he's he's done things like that where he's discussed

45:45

Eastern Orthodoxy, and so I would first Recommend talking to the folks who have direct written information on the subject which

45:53

I do not And so I will admit. This is you know I've had these experiences.

45:58

I can talk about on that level I think I know why we normally don't communicate, but beyond that It's not an area that I've pursued to claim any major level of expertise in obviously

46:10

The the fundamental conflict is going to be again How we know what we know and that's going to take us back to solo scriptura

46:19

They deny solo scriptura, but their denials of solo scriptura while they're the Western ones will be willing to borrow

46:25

Roman Catholic arguments there will always be a spin on it and the spin will be the spin of Seeing a element of revelation in the practice of the church in the prayers in the ancient prayers and And since they have a much different view of sin

46:46

You don't have the concern about the corruption of tradition as you do in the

46:52

West and so They have a very high view of tradition Almost the point of revelation, but not really

47:00

But you see we're still having to use Western categories there as to what is and what is not Revelation that they might find to be rather silly anyways

47:08

You know so it's a it's a real challenge. It really really is it's it's a very very difficult task that you're approaching, but Worthwhile, but a very difficult one all right well

47:20

I appreciate it that accords very well with what I've been seeing and I appreciate your you're pointing me in the right direction

47:26

All right, thanks a lot Joshua. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we press on Come here to good old,

47:34

Arizona and talk with James. Hi James Doing good Hey, I was listening to one of your

47:42

Calvin Calvin debate remember at John Burke I think was the other person, but I don't remember off by my head, but he asked you in the cross -examination asked you about First Peter chapter 2 and then

47:56

James Barker It's hard for me to actually you know always list that one in the debate section.

48:04

It's more of the entertainment section actually You know I definitely with you on that because he wouldn't let you answer right

48:12

So I was I was hoping because I was just really curious, and I was really frustrated that he kept interrupting you

48:17

I was hoping you could kind of explain what you were saying about First Peter chapter 2 in the

48:23

Greek there, I think you're talking about 2nd Peter chapter 2 Where it talks about false prophets also arose among the people just there will be false teachers among you

48:33

Who will secretly bring in destructive heresies even denying the master who bought them bring upon themselves with swift destruction?

48:40

Yeah, I guess I was At second Peter right yeah, well first of all please note that there is a very lengthy

48:49

Discussion of this In on our website if you'll do a search.

48:55

It's not on the blog, but it's actually in the old Vintage website which which just means that which we have not gotten around to getting into the website yet And so there is a fairly lengthy article on second

49:10

Peter to one That you'd want to look at what I was trying to communicate to brother

49:16

Barker in The debate at North Shore Baptist Church back sometime in the late 1990s Were a couple of things

49:22

I was trying to communicate to him that this is not a soteriological Passage specifically it's that is if you're going to derive a particular meaning from a text

49:34

It might be a good idea to do so by going to texts that are specifically addressing that subject

49:39

Secondly I then asked him two questions that he Would not address because he's a

49:46

King James only advocate And he wanted to talk about that morning want to talk about second Peter to one and that is

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When I just read it to you both the New American Standard and the ESV Have the word master who bought them the

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King James has Lord who bought them and Many people will focus upon that Lord And I was trying to to point out to him that the

50:12

Greek term. There is not courios Which is the normal terminology for Jesus the

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Lord Jesus it is the Greek term? despot a's which we get the word despot from and it means sovereign master and I was trying to get him to explain why he believes why he insists doesn't even

50:34

Allow for the possibility of thinking about that's the one address the second

50:40

Peter to one is Actually the father and that then ties together with the term, but I asked him

50:49

That that that Greek term there agar adzo every time it is used of redemption purchasing

50:59

That is salvific in nature it is used with the purchase price

51:04

Mentioned for example it is said that we are redeemed or purchased by his blood by his life

51:11

The purchase price is always mentioned. This is the one place where it does not Appear and so I was trying to ask him

51:19

Why is that have you considered this have you you know can you provide some? exegetical insight as to why in the very form of your question you are assuming a certain interpretation that makes despot a's equal

51:33

Jesus that makes agar adzo equal salvific giving of life and Have you even thought about any of the other possibilities have you ever looked back for example upon?

51:47

Deuteronomy 32 5 through 6 for a parallel use in the Old Testament have you even considered these things and of course he had never considered these things at all and and Didn't want to have a discussion of these things and unfortunately in the vast majority of instances where I have attempted

52:03

We've had people come into our chat channel And they've they throw out second Peter two ones they say if you all just believe the

52:09

Bible you wouldn't believe in in eternal security Or you wouldn't believe in particular redemption because here it remains very very clear that Jesus purchased false teachers and Yet they experienced swift destruction therefore either.

52:24

They were Christians got lost so you can't have eternal security or This clearly proves that he wants to save Even false teachers, and he died to save false teachers and that obviously isn't enough you have to have something else other than the death of Christ blah blah blah and When you try to get folks to to look at it and and consider these other possibilities and to go you know

52:46

Are you really being consistent here the normal response is oh? You're just playing

52:51

Greek and Hebrew games And you're just doing this and you're just doing that and all all they're doing is covering over the fact that they've only heard one interpretation they've never ever given any other view even a moments consideration and As a result they really don't want to want a discussion about it

53:07

But if you'd like to see how in -depth that can get as I said I don't remember how long the article on the website is but it's pretty big

53:16

It'll take you a little while to read through it But if you'll go to the website and search on 2nd

53:22

Peter 2 1 you'll be able to pull it up there Sure yeah, yeah, they have

53:35

It's not quite as common because honestly You know and I'm gonna get into a lot of trouble with this but the majority are only

53:42

Catholics you talk to just are biblically illiterate and If they get angry about that then they need to get angry with Carl Keating Who starts off many of his talks by saying now if you're sitting in the audience today and the person next to you has a

53:55

Bible And the other person doesn't the one who doesn't is the Catholic and the person with it is the Protestant So you know the fact the matter is most

54:03

Roman Catholics are biblically illiterate and sadly a lot of Protestants are too But I think the percentages are a little bit higher there, so it's not as common

54:11

But but yes, I have heard them utilize that as well Oh Okay, thanks a lot.

54:18

God bless bye -bye Eight seven seven seven oh I'm not even gonna bother with that because we're gonna have hard enough time getting everybody on here real quick Let's talk with Stephen Stephen.

54:28

How you doing good? How are you doing good? Hey? I have a real basic question Mike my question is simply what role as someone who preaches the sovereignty of God?

54:39

What role do you do you see prayer having in the life of a Christian? Well obviously since God has commanded it of us and Recommends it to us as the very means by which

54:51

His grace flows into our lives and by which we are changed communion with God should be something that the redeemed heart desires to have happen and the only reason

55:04

I would think that a lot of people would see any kind of a Contradiction between believing in the sovereign grace of God and and the concept of prayer is if you

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Identify as a constituent aspect of prayer some kind of mutability in God whereby

55:22

I buy my prayers Change God rather than I being changed by my prayers that is

55:29

God changes me Makes me sensitive to his spirit makes me the instrument in his hands

55:36

The idea being on the other hand that well I am trying to convince God to be a better God or to be a more merciful

55:43

God and people look at the Old Testament They say well look at what happens Abraham look at what happens with Moses, and I would simply say in those situations

55:51

That what you're seeing there the issue of prayer needs to be seen from from both the the

55:58

Shall we say the ground level as well as from vertically what I mean by that is that you and I as creatures

56:06

Exist within the temporal realm. We do not know what's going to happen even so much as in the very next second to the headlight shall we say does not shine very far forward into time and As such when we pray the only way that we can

56:22

Truly interact with God that we can fulfill his desires that we make our desires to him known etc.

56:29

Etc Is to pray that God will do things To plead his mercy.

56:36

That's the only way we know how to pray since we are not given an Ability to see the eternal perspective or to step outside of time even our language

56:46

Would fail us at that point because our language is time -based as well then from the lower perspective

56:52

Where we are then we are asking God to be gracious. We are asking

56:58

God to intercede We can't say well Lord. We know Better than you or would you please be more merciful than you are it?

57:07

We're not asking any of those things. We have to speak from our time bound perspective

57:13

But all of those prayers even as Jesus taught us then include what this this phraseology of?

57:21

according to thy will Because there is a recognition that we there is the sovereign will of God it is there and that We are not seeking to overthrow his will we are instead expressing to God what our deepest desires are and of course even in that expression there is the role of the

57:40

Holy Spirit and You've experienced this I've experienced this where we are forced to examine what our motivations are for even why we are praying

57:49

And as such are changed and sanctified in the process even at that point

57:54

So I think as long as we recognize that it is unfortunately very common That that people insert these false ideas about prayer into it if we just go with a biblical perspective there surely is no conflict whatsoever between Recognizing the sovereignty of God and then recognizing that it is his desire to change us through that great

58:16

Avenue of prayer Which is a great blessing to us? Okay? Thank you. All right. Thank you Stephen all right

58:21

All right, thanks for everybody who made it a very exciting program today including one of the foremost

58:28

Bible scholars The church knows it wasn't just the Roman Catholic Church, but the church Tim Staples for those

58:35

Insightful discussions and miss citations of Matthew 23 37 we'll be back on Thursday afternoon

58:42

Lord. Well, and see you then God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:34

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59:40

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59:47

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