June 9, 2015 ISI Radio Show with Phil Johnson discussing “Does God still guide His people through dreams, visions, divine voices, and appearances?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Introducing Phil Johnson and the Controversy Over Near-Death Testimonies

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity on the planet earth. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron and I am so delighted that we have as a very special guest today, returning to Iron Sharpens Iron, Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You Ministries, the TV, radio and publishing ministry of world-renowned pastor, preacher, author and TV and radio Bible teacher, John MacArthur.

You can regularly read Phil's blogs and those of other like-minded Christians at teampyro .blogspot .com. That's teampyro, P-Y-R-O, as in pyromaniacs .blogspot .com and it is my honor and privilege to have you back on the show, Phil Johnson.

Hey, thank you, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Oh, it's great to have you. And some people may be wondering how on earth could Phil be back as a guest when he only started last Monday a week ago and Phil was never on the lineup until today. Well, what I meant by that was back between 2006 and 2011, Phil Johnson was probably my most frequently interviewed guest, probably either right behind or neck and neck with David Wood of answeringmuslims .com.

So I'm so delighted that you believe Iron Sharpens Iron is worthy of joining us for an interview.

It's a privilege to be here.

Today we're going to be discussing something that's, I believe, a very important subject because it has held the attention and captivated the imaginations and respect and adulation of Christians or those who profess to be crossing denominational lines, whether they be evangelical Roman Catholic or even folks of neither persuasion.

But it is the issue of not only the two books that have come out recently, which are written by or co-authored by or written about young boys who apparently died or came near to death and made claims of visiting heaven.

One is The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven by Kevin and Alex Malarkey and the other is Heaven is for Real by Todd Burpo. And we're going to be addressing that issue and even the broader subject of our program today or the broader question, I should say, is does God continue to guide his people with dreams, visions, divine, audible voices and appearances today?

Well, let's first of all start out with the two books that I mentioned, The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven by Kevin and Alex Malarkey and Heaven is for Real by Todd Burpo. Is there any reason why we should doubt the claims of either of these books?

Yeah, I think there's every reason to doubt. That book purported to be a terrible car accident ten years ago. There were certain things in the book probably four years ago now, maybe three years ago. And it basically shows the way anyone who believes the Bible can give credence to the.

The day that article was published, I was in a meeting and I came out to a woman who wants you to call her back. I said, I have an article on this and you're exactly right, the book is full of exaggerations.

And that sort of launched me on a year-long project to help encourage men in the public. It was a careful look at a quadriplegic confined to his home to bed on the internet. But even on that Facebook, the response from Malarkey, and you're quite certain that this.

Is not just due to the vindictiveness of an ex-spouse who has manipulated her son into recanting the story or anything like that?

Yeah, no, absolutely. In fact, like I said, I've had any dealings at all.

Does Alex, to this very day, stand behind his recantation or refutation of this book?

Yes. In fact, what happened finally to get the recantation of the book and the story, this wasn't really confined to a hospital bed, newly paralyzed in the T .D. What happened to him while he was on consular ploy on the part of, you know, his paralyzed got a hold of it and decided, you know, this would be a great money-making thing.

Now, was this the book that became a movie with Greg Kinnear, who is actually one of my favorite actors, or was that the Todd Burpo book?

That was the Todd Burpo book.

Okay. So, what can you tell us specifically about the book, first of all, the book by Kevin and Alex Malarkey, I should say, I guess I should say Kevin Malarkey, not really Alex Malarkey.

Yeah, that was another thing. Alex was trying to, was he not co-author of the book, he really didn't have any control of what it finally said, because he tried to straighten out, his understanding is that the contract, he was making money on it either.

I'm going to give our email address if you have a question that you'd like Phil to answer on the air live. This is a live broadcast, so get us your email as quickly as possible at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. We already have an email from a listener in Northern Ireland that I'll read later on when it comes to that part of the interview that I'd like to ask him the question of our listener in Northern Ireland.

But what specifically in The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven did you immediately realize this is a bunch of malarkey, this is a fraud?

Well, certain things are incidental like what people do, people always talks about whenever anyone experienced a real vision of heaven, none of these books hardly mention it at all. With the malarkey book in particular, one of the things that stood out is one classic example.

He says in there, for example, he contradicts what in the parable he tells about left from one to the other. So little things like that, that when you add them up and just, and I don't mean to pick on the malarkey book, it's been my experience, counter one, that I don't even know how on.

Earth people would find great peace and comfort knowing that even if they get to heaven, there's going to be a portal there that leads directly into the gates of hell.

Right.

And so I understand that you actually confronted the Christian publisher of The Boy Who Came To Heaven, or Came Back From Heaven, I should say?

Yeah, well, I tried for a couple of years by writing letters, and even the publisher thing blew into a kind of national news story, in my account of...

Are they still publishing the book?

No, they withdrew the book, more or less had to.

Has anybody got this book in print?

I think you could still buy it on Amazon. It's not still being published, but there were so many copies printed that I...

Anything uniquely different about Heaven Is For Real by Todd Burpo?

No, other than that, not only does it not reconcile with scripture, it doesn't, you can't reconcile these accounts with one another. They all have totally different scenarios. The problem with them is when you compare one yet that...

Is that book still being published, and is that young man that went to heaven in that story, is he still standing by that story, or that account of going to heaven?

Yes, in fact, he's been pretty emphatic about it. He's now a young adult. I think he's probably... When the controversy over the Malarkey book at its boiling point last year, that movie with Greg Kinnear was released, is well over ten million...

And how do you respond to people who basically would say that you're raining on everybody's parade, that, hey, I'm going to believe in that Burpo book, because I'm finding peace in it, others have found peace in it, and I believe, since God is all-powerful, that he could give an experience like that to someone who has either come close to death or who has been resuscitated from actual death, clinical death.

How do you respond to that?

Well, there's, number one, there's transgression, and that can do anything he wants to, but he's pretty clear that no one has ruled out the power of God in all of scripture. People who saw visions of heaven, more fantastic spirits, without giving us a single detail of what he saw there or what happened, it's not lawful to speak of those things.

And doesn't he refer to himself in the third person? It seems like he's identifying another person who has experienced that.

Yeah, that's right. In fact, that could always refer to that, as Paul starts out talking in the... He constantly says... Didn't want to come... Shifts into saying that the Lord gave him a thorn in the flesh...

In greatness of these...

All right.

And that's so different from all of these modern books. Constantly embellish them so they're really fluid and changing...

Whether Near-Death Visions of Heaven or Hell Are Reliable Revelation

Before we go to the broader question that I mentioned earlier, does God continue to guide his people with dreams, visions, divine, audible voices, and appearances today? What about the reverse of the alleged visits to heaven, the alleged visits to hell?

If you set aside some of the lunatics that I've seen on some of the more overtly heretical charismatic television networks, and please, I want my non-cessationist charismatic friends who are biblically sound not to think that I'm broad-brushing here, but the networks that seem to feed on the sensationalism of that kind of thing, if you put those aside, those that are clearly anti-biblical or unbiblical, could it be possible that someone that God chooses to scare the living daylights out of them during a near-death or a resuscitated death experience, could they have visited or seen hell, gotten a glimpse of it?

Yeah, that's two questions. God used an experience like that to scare someone, to sort of awaken them out of a spiritual... Luther was nearly struck by lightning, and that's what stopped him literally in his tracks, and caused him to really take his obligation to serve.

You know, the Lord, as you said, snapped him out of the trap in this world. So God could do that, but do we dream as a real vision of heaven? Do we draw what we envision of hell, rather? Do we draw our concept of hell from someone's dreams to the point of the thing that frightened us was necessarily real, or a revelation from God brings people into the kingdom by literally showing it?

You'd never want to talk about it. No one would really want to read about it. It's a sort of morbid curiosity. Why books that put their minds on something like that?

Well, what I find quite interesting is that even in the scriptures themselves, the account of Abraham having a conversation with the rich man who is in hell, and he's pleading with Abraham that his brothers may have a word from the afterlife, so that they may know that the path they're on is damning, and basically, Abraham is saying that even if one raises from the dead, if they don't have the law and the prophets, if they don't hear the law and the prophets, they're not going to believe even that person.

Yeah, that's right.

And one more time, I'm going to repeat our email address as chrisarnson at gmail .com if you have a question, chrisarnson at gmail .com, the question for Phil Johnson. This is a very sensitive question that we're about to bring up.

Does God continue to guide his people with dreams, visions, divine, audible voices and appearances today? And this is something that you will hear anecdotal accounts from people spanning the denominational divisions.

You don't only have cessationists necessarily, or those who claim to be non-cessationists, pardon me. You don't only have non-cessationists or charismatic or Pentecostal people making anecdotal claims about having heard or seen messages from the afterlife or from heaven or appearances and so on.

Are these each up to their own individual examination in the light of scripture, or should we discount each and every one of them?

The stories in scripture reveal things to people, and they generate a new revelation. I don't know of any response that I genuinely believe my non-cessationists want to make a distinction between that kind of and the object of probably the most forelonger prophecy in the New Testament.

In one place in the book, I think it's page 109 of this book, if it's a message from God, if it's genuinely from God, we'll acknowledge that if you regard it as infallible, if it's genuinely a prophecy, these messages are fallible, and in fact, they're wrong numerically more often than they are right.

And so my answer is for that reason, for that reason alone, they're worthless. If they're not reliable, then it shouldn't be deemed a message from God, because if it's a message from God, it's reliable, and if it's fallible, it's not a message from God.

Many times, in effect, by acknowledging that these prophecies are fallible, they are not. And I'm assuming that you would certainly, after having heard what you said, you would.

Certainly have people immediately reject any visions or voices of deceased loved ones that are allegedly appearing to people and speaking to people.

Yeah, I mean, that's necromancy, and that's definitely spiritism. And honestly, I think that is one of the problems. It bears a very close resemblance to the kind of fortune-telling that these women in Scotland overtly asking me, do you give any credence to these messages?

You know, I think sometimes a person who thinks he's heard a message from God may actually have a right idea about what my intuitions might be true. That doesn't prove that I have the gift of prophecy.

And in fact, if one of my intuitions is wrong, that's proof that I don't have the wrong intuition as if it were a prophecy from God in the Old Testament.

Saul, Endor, and the Limits of Seeking the Dead

Well, speaking of that, what do you make of the account in the Old Testament with Saul and the Witch of Narnia, or the medium? Did Samuel manifest himself from the grave? Because the account in the Old Testament never says this was a fraud of the medium.

Yeah, it was Endor, not Narnia.

I'm sorry! I'm sorry!

That's a kind of...

Oh boy, that was funny. Sorry. Very serious question, sorry for the bellow there.

No, that is one of the mysteries of the Old Testament. Because that was really dead. Now, if that's true, no one in Israel should say that the kingdom was taken from him forever.

And, of course, even if God in his sovereignty permitted that to happen with Samuel, this is not something that we should seek after a repeat, and it's damnable.

And even the context surrounding that it was, there's no way Scripture and Samuel back with approval of the process. Right, and I think that one of the most.

Remarkable things that our listeners may have discovered today is that C .S. Lewis actually contributed to the canon of the Bible. We're gonna be right back after these brief messages. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Phil Johnson, it is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Phil Johnson, the Executive Director of.

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We are discussing the question, does God continue to guide his people with dreams, visions, divine audible voices, and appearances today? And one of the things, you touched on it already John, that one of the things that makes the issue cloudier or harder to really discern the answers to these questions is because you have men who are wonderful exegetes and even Reformed who disagree with the cessationists on this issue.

You just mentioned Wayne Grudem, for example, who you have a host of Christians who have been greatly helped by reading his works. And you even have people like John Piper, who's a modern-day hero to many Reformed.

Folk. How do you respond to that? Well, Piper admits... Like C. Samuel Storms would be one that would be more of a direct... Yeah, and all of them, I think, are far too open on this issue, far too accepting of claims that God is still speaking, and that they got a message from it turned out to be a false message.

Grudem even defines, an extensive quote is this, human words to report something God brings to mind. Well, by giving it that definition, in my view, he says it's merely human words, and we know from experience it's usually wrong.

Why anyone would want, you know, reliable revelation from God from a fool? Our own intuition is going to run into trouble. And would you say that this is.

Heresy, that these people, even those who share our beloved Sovereign Grace teachings, Reformed theology, Calvinism, however you want to label it or nickname.

It? Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't call it a damnable idea. You know, you and I both want to be very clear and dividing, but friends to us, in many ways, together with the wackos, unreliable. But I do think support and credence to the wackos.

I do think who are heretics. And what is your assessment, I mean, obviously this could.

Be a week-long series of messages on this one issue that I'm gonna ask you, but what is your assessment on the Sovereign Grace Ministries movement? I mean, I know that even your employer and friend and brother, Dr. John MacArthur, sat on the platform on a number of speaking engagements with CJ Mahaney.

If he was not the founder, certainly the leader, one of the leaders of the Sovereign Grace Ministries movement, who share our love for the doctrines of grace, but are clearly charismatic. What is your assessment of that?

Well, I guess.

Beyond that, I don't think we'd support a lot of what they teach. So I wouldn't read too much into the affirms, the God, you know, serious. Now, the Church of Rome.

Clearly and openly admits, and more than admits, declares that the Protestant understanding of the sufficiency of Scripture is a heresy, because they believe that tradition is required. Would this be on the same level of seriousness, this belief in the continuation of visions, voices, and.

Appearances, with a denial of the sufficiency of Scripture? Keep going back to Wayne Grudem's book, the root of a lot of the difficulty. In my view, the whole thing is kind of, there's an appendix in that book that is one of the finest.

I do think how it came down to it, he would stand on the truth he affirms in that appendix. Now, what do you make, excuse me, what do you make of the folks, I don't.

Know if you've met them, I have in my travels, people that would be non-cessationists who believe in the perpetuity of the gift of tongues, and yet they separate that completely from modern-day prophecy.

They do not believe that their gift of tongues is new revelation from God. They believe it is specifically a prayer language for, you know, their private meditations and prayer, and some of them would even say that they don't even know what is being brought through them by the Holy Ghost, therefore it would not be revelation since it's a prayer language that only the God and the angels can understand.

How do you respond to that kind of a thing, where there are people making a division who want to hold on to the modern-day tongues, but yet reject the prophecy or new revelation, extra-biblical revelation?

Well, I have.

Several responses to that. Number one, if they're acknowledging tongues to native languages, so inflatable human languages, in effect, they're declaring themselves hearing today. They welcome to the system.

That is based on everything's Paul is not saying that the good who stands up and speaks in tongues with no translator is simply calling attention to himself. Spiritual gifts are not given to us as are given to spiritual gift for some kind of self-aggrandizement that you conceive of as a...

Tongues, Prophecy, and the Sufficiency of Scripture

We're going to take our final break, and if you'd like to.

Email us, this would be the time because we're running out of time rapidly. We do have a couple of emails on waiting for us to answer, and we thank you for your patience. But we're going to be taking our final break, and if you'd like to email us with a question for Phil Johnson, it is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known for. The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at NASBible .com. Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today. Go to NASBible .com. That's NASBible .com.

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Is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron. Our guest has been today Phil Johnson of Grace to You Ministries, the TV and radio ministry of John MacArthur. And speaking of John MacArthur, two of our sponsors have many of both John MacArthur's books and some things that Phil Johnson has contributed to as well in stock for you to order.

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Just kidding there. But we appreciate you supporting those who support us. I want to go to our listener in Northern Ireland who has a very interesting question that has been perplexing me personally as a cessationist in addition to some other close friends of mine who are Reformed.

And we have met and heard about the testimonies of many Muslims, many of whom are also Reformed, theologically, Calvinist, Sovereign of Grace believing. And these people very often, I think even a very very high percentage of Muslims who are known to have come to Christ or have made a profession of embracing Christianity, and very often at great cost to them personally, they have experienced some kind of a dream, a vision, or an appearance of God.

What do you make of this? And especially in regard to those who say that they function as cessationists after that, they don't continue to have dreams and visions, this was almost like an initiation that broke them from their disbelief of the Bible and their clinging to the Quran and the Hadith and so on.

What do you make of that? Well I think it's wrong to look at those dreams and messages from God, even if you had a dream about God, and God used it providentially to get you to investigate the claims of Christ, and ultimately you came to Christ who's the real Jesus, not the one who was in your dream.

And even if God providentially, if you begin to think of that image in your head, there's nothing reliable about it. He uses people who were looking at Scripture and they came to Christ, and Benny Hinn, because God uses all things for good.

But Scripture's very clear in getting the gospel out to the world. Romans 10 was, well, God regularly sends people dreams. You know, we don't have to worry about reaching the world. And that's my fear with all these tales about, you know, mass conversions in the Islamic world of people who are having dreams.

I don't doubt that that really woke someone up. People think, well, God has now changed the way He's converting Muslims. He's bringing them to Christ through their dreams.

We want to thank Cecil from Northern Ireland for that question, and he has a.

Follow-up question. I'd like to hear from someone who has anything. You put me in touch with that person or have them write to me. I'd like to hear a first-hand. I've yet to have anybody who could give me all these stories so that people, before you buy into that myth, especially if it's going to cause you to shift your theology and become a charismatic dream.

We have a follow-up question from Cecil.

In Northern Ireland. Grudem's definition of prophecy is in direct conflict with Peter's definition of prophecy, being holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. Actually, that's just a comment, that's not a question.

Maybe you could reply to that comment or give your thoughts.

I think he's exactly right. The emphasis of Scripture always is that men don't speak prophecies on their own initiatives, but they speak as they are moved along by the Holy Spirit with what we see today.

We have an anonymous listener who asked.

The question, I saw a former Muslim who converted to Christianity speak at a church. He said the thing that convinced him most to convert to Christianity, even though his life would be at great risk, was a vision of Christ that appeared to him after he pled to God, Father, please show me who is truly the father of Abraham.

And Jesus Christ appeared to him and told him, I am. My question is, is this a false apparition because of the fact that Jesus is the Son of God, he is.

Not the Father in the Holy Trinity? Yeah, I mean... Now what do you think about the.

Specific theological question about the Trinity, about the vision of Christ said, I am the Father of Abraham, and yet Jesus is the Son of God, or God the.

Son, not God the Father? Yeah, I mean that's, it's a kind of minor point, important one, that it's language and expressions that are not found in just one more of many reasons to discount... I would like you to comment on the aftermath of the.

Strange Fire conference that you were a participant in, along with Dr. McArthur and some really wonderful speakers, including a dear friend of mine, Conrad Mbewe, from Kabwatha Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, who has visited America many times and I've gotten to meet and know him and interview him, but if you could give us a follow-up on the aftermath of that, especially in light of some very dear friends of mine who agreed with nearly everything that was said and taught, but who are simultaneously members of the charismatic movement or non-cessationist or continuous movement.

They say that there was some broad-brushing done. If you could respond to that and give us.

Some updates on the aftermath of that. Yeah, let me say too, I love Conrad Mbewe as well, and a bold man, and yeah, you know, he I thought was one of the outstanding speakers and watch it, because he had some important and sort of chilling theology in Africa, especially.

Yeah, especially since the.

Anecdotal evidence. You constantly hear from charismatics and Pentecostals about people being raised from the dead and those kind of spectacular things.

It's always, it's happening in Africa. Right. Now, about difficulty with the broad-brush charge is it's impossible to answer in a soundbite, and broad-brushing someone is also to avoid three days and general sessions, if possible, as large and constantly be making these fine-point distinctions.

One of the concerns I have, however, put themselves in that camp. You know, he'll go on a television program. I believe they do love scripture. Why they would put them in an era when the ambiguity is one of the biggest problems.

And we're out of.

Time, Phil. I really appreciate your spending the time with us today, and I.

Definitely want to have you back. One other quickie. Sure. Do a Google search for my name and the words broad-brush, and you'll see a lengthy blog post. And I.

Know that you could also read some of Phil's material at gty .org and the Pyromaniac Blogspot, teampyro .blogspot .com. Thank you so much, Phil, for being a part of our show. Thank you everyone who listened, especially Cecil in Northern Ireland and our anonymous emailer.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a sinner. God bless you all.