Is the Church Pro-Gay?

Conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host John Harris as always here. It's a beautiful day in upstate, New York. It is a cool day for the summer. It's a weird thing. We've been having we've got Summers that are cool and winters that are warm and springs and falls.

I don't know what they are. But I'm happy. I'm we've had a few hot days and now I'm ready for some cool weather. So cool is for me is like, you know 69 is cool now for me, but. But I don't know what what it's like for Pastor Mathis we have Pastor Mathis joining the podcast for the first time from Colorado Providence Church OPC Church there.

How's the weather in Denver right now? Very nice.

I got a little hot but it's been 70s and 80s and nice shower last night.

You know if you were a red state, I would highly be could I would consider very strongly moving to Denver.

Yeah, that's what everyone said that 20 years ago not at all. Out here, unfortunately, it's not a bunch of John Harris's it's.

No, I know and I don't know what happened. Exactly. I mean, California happened, but I remember you know I was a kid watching the presidential elections and It seemed like the Republicans Carried Colorado up until what was it Obama that that flipped?

Yeah, Colorado is kind of interesting. We would vote Republican one way and Democrat another on President versus non-president positions and whatnot, but yeah, Obama about flipped it. But since I came out of the military in early 90s I came out here about 94 came back here to Colorado's where I grew up and that's when I discovered everyone and their mom's trying.

To come to Colorado and apparently everyone their mom from California for 25 years now. Yeah. Yeah. I was in Boulder last year.

I think it was yeah, I Thought wow, okay, this is not the Colorado I was expecting and very California influenced in that region at least. But you do have a website I should let everyone know. Pastor math is calm and I'm assuming not only are there social media links.

But people can get in touch with you if they have questions or want to connect. You are in the OPC. When's the OPC having their annual meeting?

The General Assembly should be coming up soon. I think it's the week of the 17th. Doesn't sound like you're going. I am NOT going. I'm on vacation. I'm going elsewhere. Oh, that sounds much better.

Yeah, cuz you right now the PCA is meeting the SPC is meeting. I know the evangelical Presbyterian Church I think is meeting next week or something And so it's like everyone it must be an agriculture thing like, you know, June is the month where everyone feels like, you know, we've planted the crops and we can go and Be part of the meeting, but all right, so, you know, we're not here to talk about the OPC though Although that would be interesting.

The Book’s Focus on the Gay Queer Life and Church Outreach

We I want to talk about your book that you published in January and I have a Picture of it here that it's called is the church pro-gay. This is the Kindle edition. Of course. It's also an audible and You can obviously get a print copy as well.

But this is endorsed by people like Rosaria Butterfield and There was a recent article you probably saw in truth script about this and Just summarizing kind of what it's about and stuff. And you know, I I think we're gonna get into the Audrey Hale stuff because that's kind of recent.

But I want to ask you first What sets your book apart because there's been a number of books in the last year or two that have tried to approach this topic of homosexuality and transgenderism in the church the normalization of these things and Of course you write a book for a reason you think you're saying something that other people are not saying.

So I'm assuming you think you had a unique Perspective on this or something that others weren't saying. So what is it that you inspired you to write this?

Yeah, so I think what makes it stand out the most would be chapter 2 and then the application is drawn from that. Chapter 2 is about the gay queer life. What I've run across and lectures and conferences and books.

They don't really cover that it's just kind of assumed. They're just heterosexuals that are a little weird and it's nothing of the kind. It is a foreign world to us. And then I point this out for the implications in the church when it comes to outreach.

Which will occur of course on the flip side related to that. That means then they shouldn't be a target audience in the way that we typically think of other groups of people like target audiences. Parachurches, unfortunately think of them as some kind of hey, we gotta go after them.

We got to have more gays in the church or something like that. No, you want them saved? Yes, but these are such things such serious matters not unlike ms -13 or Sex traffickers and the like you would treat them differently.

You hope they can be saved maybe under good conditions. You can talk to them, but ordinarily you're not gonna have good conditions with them. You know, you're gonna walk around and try to avoid them mostly.

And the like and it's pretty bad in the homosexual world. I haven't got that sense from pretty much anywhere else. I've run across. I just reviewed a long.

I don't if you saw it, but it was it was like a two-hour podcast. It was a long Kind of montage that I made from cruise six hours of LGBTQ training. Yeah I saw some of that. Yeah, one of the things that they do is they they provide these positive examples of engaging with LGBTQ plus people or people who think of themselves in that way and.

They have at the end of the montage that I made towards the end of the training. There's a man who is on crew staff and says yeah I just go to gay bars and I try to strike up conversations and he'll go for months on end when he's living somewhere and form these relationships and then hope that this transitions into sharing the gospel and then becoming Christians and.

And so you're saying that quite the opposite of that and that's a lot of red flags, that's what I'm telling you, right?

Reaching Out with Wisdom Instead of Normalizing Sin

Yeah, and I think so, too I wouldn't I wouldn't do that whether it was a gay bar or not. That just isn't the way that I would approach it. But especially again like like, you know, I wouldn't go to a strip club and you know Let's get the people in the strip club, but I think there's this admiration that Christians have for that.

They think it's bold. They think yeah. This this is what Jesus did and reaching out to Prostitutes and tax gatherers. So maybe talk about that a little why you're saying quite the opposite. Why?

It doesn't work that way in real life. There's this long history and the American churches either reform evangelical that you do these amazing things and they have amazing results. If anybody remembers was a Richard Mueller 120 years ago and.

These amazing things would happen from prayer and whatnot or extraordinary for acts of providence. It doesn't. He's not my George Mueller. George Miller. Yeah, Richard George Miller. Thank you. Yeah. Remember him from the charismatic days.

It does not. God doesn't work that way. And unfortunately, we don't hear what really happens on the ground. We get a lot of fluff when you dig into it in my own experience the experience of many other Officers and my interactions admit yeah, you deal with drug addicts you witness to Alcoholics, but they have a high turnaround rate of recidivism rate.

It's called in social sociology circles. There's not a lot of there's another way to put a lot of effort a lot of dangerous effort even especially in the case of grooming male homosexual. People out there that yields very very little fruit that any other situation like Japan right now.

You're like, okay. I have to commit resources and go somewhere else. You do we have limited resources people don't want to hear this in the churches and you have cannot you have to go after What you can and witness to people, of course, they come across your path gays come across our path and various and sundry ways.

Let's preach the gospel to him. Amen, but they shouldn't be a target group any more than we should throw money to Japan right now. They just no one gets converted over there. Okay, that's all not ours.

So many questions so many.

You mentioned George Buehler at first and so I have to just clarify. Because I know people are gonna think you're saying God doesn't do miracles anymore and of course, he does a conversions a miracle so God can provide in Miraculous ways when we're in need and he can also convert homosexuals.

You're not saying that those things aren't possible.

Well, there certainly are possible. There's a reason why Paul picked gays in chapter 1 of Romans. It is such a heinous sin and there's such Hardness there that many of them do not convert just cross the board.

Right, and there's a lot of sins that are probably I mean if you go into deeper depths of depravity and sure that there's you know someone. When they get to that point, they've made so many decisions along the way to choose sin that they're they're lost in it quite.

And I think that maybe this is hard for Christians to comprehend because we're all lost and we're used to that language and we are. It's true, but you can get more lost, right? Correct. And so. So yeah, this is interesting to me because I you know, I don't know if I agree or not yet I I do think that we do need to reach out to sinners and that's the only kind that God saves anyway.

But you're trying to say that there's certain demographics that are more responsive than.

Than others and that this is one demographic fact. That's why I use the Japanese example. We've had missionaries there a very long time in the OPC 10 or 12 years ago. Interdicted that as they stopped officially supporting Missionaries to Japan because you're throwing all this money all this resource all the right time and it's going nowhere and you're like but over here.

They're more receptive. That's all we know providentially. We don't know. God's secret revealed the reveal things are to us Deuteronomy 29 not 29. None of this what God could do. God could do it. Sure.

Let God do it. You're called to do what your duty is, which is people here people who are responsive, etc, etc. Duty is ours. Results are God's. That's how we should live.

So if you look at the Middle East Let's say in the Persian community that seems to be having these dreams and or at least that's what some of them are claiming. But there's there seems to be a high rate of conversions happening.

Okay in that part of the world That would be an area you'd say based on the initial results. It seems like a place to invest versus Japan where we've tried that and it doesn't seem like God's working there as much.

Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I know what you mean by seen but it just they literally aren't it isn't happening. What's Oh in Japan? You mean I use the verb seem and I would say it is not there's no.

There's like one guy. I mean sure there's someone you can point to to say that person.

Yeah, but you know common sense. Christians are supposed to live in a common-sense world. The gospel comes redeems us in the situation. We find ourselves in which is natural law natural common-sense.

We don't tell ourselves. Hey. We could convert that gangbanger if I went there to New York City in a dark alley Friday night after midnight. I'm gonna find that gangbanger and God can save him. He's made the image of God and he's gonna convert him and God's gonna use me somehow.

No, you're gonna get mugged probably die and your family's gonna mourn for you. That's foolish.

Prudence, Common Sense, and Demographic Responsiveness

Yeah, well if it's that if that is the The normative which I think David Platt kind of helped make that somewhat of a normative thing at least in my generation. I remember in seminary my classmates thinking like the right thing to do is to pick up and move to the ghetto and There you go and it's like if you're trapped there I get it but like making the self-conscious decision to go from the suburbs to the ghetto and Putting your family at risk in order to reach people that yeah that's something that you really want to be 100 sure about.

This is certainly not a Universal thing all Christians need to do. David Platt doesn't even do it. One of the things, you know, I've noticed is that right-wing young men, especially the other the pagan and Secular right-wing young men seem to me to be very open to Christian things and they are looked over.

You know the sure. And so maybe that would be a demographic that would be more likely to be.

Responsive. Yeah, I think so. I think so from what I what I've seen. I don't know as much about that, but that's been my sense as well. Here we have these group of people who are socially conservative.

If you're already socially concerned relatively speaking right socially conservative compared to moderate or especially the leftist progressives. Half the battles already dealt with. Yeah, half the offense is gone.

They're like we already have a lot in common. Paul went after the Jews. He not only had a lot in common with him.

He was biologically a Jew that was his first thought. And then when the results weren't working. Maybe yeah.

Yeah, he said that the end of you know, I'm gonna go to the Gentiles. How do you guys? Yeah. Yeah, that's a really.

You know, that's an intriguing thing to think about and I think we should probably should think about that more. I've noticed I'm in regionally in the United States. Mm-hmm. There are certain areas that are less open.

I'm in one of them actually in New York. You can go and pour it's discouraging too. You can really pour your heart out and hand out tracts all day and try to spark up conversations and. The I have I'm trying to even think if I've seen conversions that have been accomplished based upon that.

Not many and you know, you wonder. We're supposed to evangelize so I would never say to stop evangelizing, but maybe rethink where you're going who you're going to how you're going. And there's other regions I've lived in that just seems so much more open when I was in, North Carolina.

You know even people who were not Christians seem very open to talking about things of the Lord and. So that yeah something that maybe should be delved into more. But we're maybe we're getting away from your book and I don't want to do that because that's the point so you open the book with a discussion about Audrey Hale in the introduction here and.

And I just think that's Interesting given the current news cycle that we're in right now regarding Audrey Hale. Why did you start with with Audrey Hale?

Audrey Hale, Church Violence, and the Need for Tough Love

I mean first and foremost an intro to a book wants to get people's attention. First is the cover and they go to the back. Then they grab the first few pages the intro there the chapter one Specifically here and I want to grab them by the shirt in their mind and say pay attention.

This is serious stuff. That's going down here. It's not the only story. Although I spend the first five pages I go off to the Orkberg scandal with his son the famous pastor John Orkberg and his pedophilic homosexual son that he covered for for a number of years apparently and Weave them together to show these are the things the church is facing right now these problems.

So with the developments that have taken place, it seems like you're kind of vindicated in your initial assessment of.

Audrey Hale's motivations. I. There's another incident. I think it was Christ Presbyterian Academy or something like that where there's a cyber stalking. Who's gonna go after them the woman trying to pretend to be a man the FBI?

Took her out before it happened. That was another PCA school in Nashville a year later. Oh.

I hadn't really read about that. There's so many incidents and they don't always get reported. Yep, or at least, you know mainstream. Yeah. So, you know, this is what do you think this is illustrative of though the fact that you know in Christian schools.

You have people You know essentially students who should know better that are choosing to go down these paths to think that they're men when they're women or women when they're men and then in the case of Audrey Hale to build up all this resentment and commit an act of violence because of the resentment that That they have towards the church.

It is happening they already have hate their unbelievers, unfortunately in many of these cases and They get groomed. I think the younger ones especially get groomed. Someone comes along and convinces them usually in the school.

We've seen it over and over again. I think you're probably pretty aware and the audience is aware how bad the schools are with respect to the sex gender issues and what they're shoving down their throats and the kids start believing this stuff and Hale went even further.

Of course, it coalesced with white hate. She called herself white nothingness many times in her journal. This is the Tennessee Stars of the listeners can go to that. They they've they've broken the news.

I've got 80 pages of her journal and that's not everything. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The churches and the schools need to be prepared for this. Christian schools tend to have more trouble students because the trouble students in the public schools the parents can afford it are like hey.

We're gonna take them to a Christian school. That'll fix them up In the Christian school if they have a misunderstanding and don't appreciate and know the depths of the problems of the queer community specifically here transgender.

They are completely unprepared and they don't know how to handle these things and what they need to do. May have be along the lines of what we used to call tough love. Yeah, and they want to be winsome and water it down and turn a blind eye and to say what just kind of like us a little different she was very unstable this Community is very unstable very depressive because of their own wicked lifestyle choices.

It's just a feedback loop that makes it worse and worse until they blow up in this case with the transgender.

What what do you think about the ERL sees response to this with Brent Leatherwood trying to cover up the manifesto? You know people have wondered and speculated that Why they're doing this is it because they don't want Christians to hate people who think they're trans.

What do you think's going on there. Why Christians are reacting in such an odd way.

Covering Up the Manifesto and the Problem of Compromise

Yeah, there it could be other things. They're trying to cover for they don't want the people to find out what was happening. She was there at Covenant Sixth fifth or sixth grade 10 11 12 years old and she was under therapeutic treatment then.

So while going to we just found out going to Covenant, maybe the school knew about it and they didn't know about it. We don't know. These are things we need to find out because again it almost happened a second time in another PCA church in Nashville a year later.

Yeah, something's going on. Two points already make a line. We're gonna get a third one. I'm sure eventually I Don't know why. Talked about Leatherwood is a scandal. The whole thing is well.

He could yeah could be protecting the school or you know something. It seems like there's some odd. It is interest he has in covering this up. So you say In the book on page 149 that You want to? Well, I'm not going in sequential order necessarily.

But you say I want to stress the need to teach this doctrine specifically applying it. And you're talking about mortifications the sinfulness of the gay life. Mortification must be taught vigorously that includes the wickedness of homosexual attraction.

It is not enough for pastors and church leaders to affirm Opposition informal statements. They must preach and write against it otherwise their congregations will be left to open danger and this is I think important because You have a lot of churches that we would think of as very orthodox on this and maybe they've even added doctrinal statements.

But you're saying that's not enough. So what paint us a picture? What's enough?

Well part of that is what I point out my book maybe in a Sunday school class. They spend a little time if that particular topic comes up as they may. They're made. They're gonna meet somebody at the fast-food restaurant in their neighborhood who's gay and They're gonna be very nice and be very pleasant.

But the gay lifestyle is very dangerous not just sexually but even physically. They have high rates of interpersonal assaults and whatnot. And They need to explain it to them more or less. Probably not appropriate.

A sermon. But you the route the closest you would get. We were Romans 1 of course. Preaching through that and what you can highlight there of the depth of the depravity is the hardness of their heart.

Now Christ Can overcome that but the hardness is means Practically for us you got to be wary of them like you'd be wary of a mass murderer. We all know the extreme situations which unfortunately becoming smaller smaller now because we've Normalized these things.

A pedophile you're like I'm gonna treat the pedophile little. They're sure they're converted. But in the church, you still keep them away from kids just like an Ex-drunk. You keep them away from the wine.

This which is what we should be doing even if they're not I don't know. But I think a lot of people on the ground Understand these things. People in the pure like yeah. It's gonna be a little different because it takes time for us to understand where you are.

We don't really know a lot of people wouldn't even live in the same neighborhood and it's naive and foolish to say Oh, you've been here for a year. We're gonna pretend like nothing ever happened.

So let me ask you this because I know there's gonna be perhaps a strong reaction to Viewing them like a mass murderer. And and I could understand why and I think the reason is is I can think of people in my own life that took gradual steps to get where they are and you think of a child or you know minor who's Thinking through their identity and at a stage in life where I think we all have We're going through puberty.

We all have issues with our identity and our self-image and all these things where all these changes are happening they have a voice come to them and say actually maybe you're a girl and Maybe maybe you're in the wrong.

You're not actually a guy. You're a girl or maybe you're gay and I think during that stage, especially that is When you have all these changes and there's insecurities and all the rest that can be appealing to some some children or minors and So, you know the moment that someone starts questioning these things that God has established Obviously, they're in sin.

Obviously, this is evil, but I wouldn't call them a mass murder at that point. And I think that's maybe where some of these pastors who teach we need to normalize these Conditions in the church. They're relying on that.

They're relying on us to See those situations. And those who are unstable we have compassion for them but to then it sort of take that and make that everyone who's in the People who are at gay bars dressed in leather, you know marching and gay pride parades and they're not maybe quite the same thing.

So, can you parse that out a little bit and where we can have compassion and and where we should be gentle where we should Be harsher.

Compassion, Boundaries, and the Need for Accountability

Yeah, certainly that's certainly the case. You're gonna have a Gradation right entry point into this wicked lifestyle. There you have providentially speaking I speak as a man a better opportunity to pull them back from the brink of disaster.

But when they have hardened themselves, you know 20 30 years into the gay lifestyle. It becomes a lot harder and the warning. Lights are going a lot brighter and a lot louder and you need put up more walls between them and people.

Like other kids for example, it's pedophilia a lot higher amongst the homosexual population. The numbers are showing it for decades. Nobody wants to talk about it because then they play the game. Well, you're saying we're all pedophile.

I'm not saying you're all pedophiles any more than I'm saying every biker out there is mean and gonna beat you up, but if I'm walking down the street and I see a bus stop over there and one has a bunch of ballerinas another one has a bunch of you know Harley Davidson guys, which one we're gonna go to.

Because I don't know the particulars. I only know the generals I have to make a particular conclusion based on general probability, which is it's gonna be safer amongst.

The first crowd. Yeah, I mean that analogy might have made sense 10 years ago. But now the ballerinas might be guys and the bikers might be Trump supporters. I know. I know. No, I get what you're saying though.

Yeah. No, that's a good point and so I think the emphasis that you're bringing which is different is this. Protection that we should view this group of people in a suspicious way and protect ourselves and our children.

Especially from their influence which means building a barricade. It doesn't mean that they cannot. Like Jesus welcomed sinners into who were repentant, you know to eat with him. We can't it doesn't mean we can't do that.

But it does mean that we're not going to cater to these people. We're not going to leave them unsupervised, you know around our children or make them, you know. The heads of our children's ministries or things like that or but they do.

Yeah, and that's what happens. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah, and and maybe even yeah.

For sins. Mm-hmm. We talked about this. We're kind like yeah, this is true. I struggle for the rest of my life. But I'm especially neurotic. I had these problems growing up on my family and under certain circumstances or around dogs or something I'm always nervous.

I'm 55 years old. I'm still struggling with these things. We're all at all. We all understand and there yeah, there's gonna be a struggle and we're gonna we're gonna adjust things so that the temptation in your case is Alleviated.

Well the temptation for gay men are younger people. Younger men. Yeah younger boys even.

Yeah, yeah that I know I've seen some stats on that and so tell me what Christian ministries then I know for this audience perhaps some of this might be familiar but like which ones are Compromised on this and just pushing the needle in the wrong direction trying to normalize homosexuality or like you said in chapter 2 This this queer culture.

It's not necessarily full-fledged homosexuality, but it's this acceptance of this Supposed cult. It's not even real culture, but this style this aesthetic that Will then be the spoonful of sugar to help someone.

Fully embrace homosexuality down the road. You mean side B. Did they call it side B side B?

Yeah, I mean like there's so many ministries that are put to cruise. Obviously the latest example, but yeah.

I almost put Cruz in the book I had so much stuff and that was just starting up then when Cruz the Cruz stuff was starting to get really bad. At the time we're living out is one of the most people haven't heard these ministries I don't think.

Maybe sprinkle now Preston sprinkles been moving around more on social media his his group. They are the center for Faith gender and sexuality. I think it is. He's he's teaching all kinds of dangerous whacked-out stuff.

He's you know, he's okay with two lesbians living together. As long as they're just hugging and not kissing that kind of garbage. These these ministries now the ones people have heard about such as the gospel coalition TGC had someone Sam Albury as an editor there and has written a number of articles there.

He may still be writing there. He's from living out. He doesn't have a problem. He doesn't think same-sex attraction as such as a sin and when he was asked in a conference once, you know If you could lose it and God could take it away from you.

Would you let him and he was struggling with the answer? I was struggling with saying Yeah, it shouldn't be struggle. A drunkard says God take it away from me a homosexual would say God take it away from me.

It's not complicated. Once they start hamming and hawing. There's a problem. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think I've seen that clip. It was from a few years ago if I'm not mistaken. I think Sam Albury and Well, even Preston Sprinkles seem very defensive when you start saying these things. I've noticed because they've both gone after.

Guys like Jared Moore, you know online when he starts going down the road of concupiscence and you guys justify this desire in you. And and they're just like ready to read him all their Orthodox statements about marriage.

We believe marriages between one man and one woman. We believe there's only two genders, right? And I think for most churches, that's enough. You just say that and they think well, you're not compromised.

You're a conservative like us, but but they're not and that's what you're saying there. They are compromised. They're just Maybe they're there, you know some of the previous steps that it would take to get to those positions.

They're bringing those or ushering those in. Yeah, that's why I spend time in one of my later chapters Five or six explaining the law of God and how to apply it. One of the games they play is well, there's something in the Bible that tells you you're supposed to be straight.

Yeah, and it also doesn't say much about The difference between men and women in particulars nor adulthood or childhood. So you can marry a child and what's going on here? What kind of game are you trying to play?

There's a thing called natural revelation. The law of God is written on our hearts and the Bible is not a manual in that sense and assumes a number of common principles and that's one of them that we are.

Created to be straight man and woman Adam and Eve were brought together. Not Adam and Steve as I used to say and that really means something. Right now and I unpacked the implications of that and how to apply God's law.

They don't want to mess with that at all. I'll bury blocked me a long time ago. Oh, did he?

Okay, so yeah, I guess you've gotten the same responses Jared Moore. So is God anti-gay. You have a whole chapter on it. And I think maybe that's the dividing line. A lot of these guys would say no, of course not.

He accepts everyone where they're at and you say No.

No, no, no, no, no a thousand times. No. That's a that's a terrible. I'll bury again. Did that in his book. His book is God anti-gay. That was the title back in 2015. His answer is no. He literally says no and then he continues on to play this kind of verbal game God's kind of against what we all are by nature.

Well, then the answer should have been yes, right? What are you trying to get out here? We find out later, of course that he denies the same-sex attraction as such is. Morally culpable. I've never said this on.

Publicly, but I had this I've wondered this many times Whether or not some of these organizations like the gospel coalition like Even perhaps desiring God. I'm trying to think of like some of the major t4g some of these Organizations that have brought in people like Sam Albury or Preston Sprinkle or other like side B proponents whether They are Engaged in taking advantage of mentally unstable people, you know.

Like you look at a Sam Albury or a Preston Sprinkle that Preston Sprinkle, maybe not as much I think he knows what he's doing. He's he's kind of it seems to me from the limited. Well, it's not that limited.

I watched hours of him in that crew thing. Yes, it seems like he knows what he's doing. But but guys like Sam Albury or Rebecca McLaughlin who? Experience what they're teaching on. They they just don't seem like stable people to me.

Like they got a lot of hang-ups a lot of Insecurities. Yeah, now you're putting them on a stage in a very vulnerable position. I just don't think that's right from from a passionate standpoint. That's a good that's a good observation.

It's implied in my book. I point out they have their kitchen floor moments. Ed Shaw one of Albury's buddies has a book and he's part of the organization side B and all that and and he describes that way Albury admits it that kind of not that same language, but they struggle with depression more or less.

They're like they don't use the word the best exactly what it is. One of the comorbidities of this group they to suffer two to three times more than typical person. Yeah.

Yeah, and you and you look at the Albury when he's sharing his story and he's saying how you know. What's it like to never to know that you have to give up the dream of having a family and getting married and you know.

And you look at him and he's depressed. He's you know, you're like get the guy off the stage, man.

Like he needs help get him and get some counseling some real compassion here us or them.

Right, right. We have compassion. I think so. I think so and and they make these people.

Experts simply because they have this experience. Correct. That is a big I. Drives me up the wall. You know it I'm sure you've seen it. A lot of our viewers recognize this big. Problem in the church is even reformed churches because there were some reformed men who endorsed that book for example I'll bury his book like why it's like they want this token guy.

Look we got a gay guy. He converted and he's kind of talking like he's reformed a conservative. Nothing about.

Yeah, we do that with a lot of stuff. Unfortunately, I think we do that on the racial lines. We do that on gender lines and we find someone who's not a white male to say the same thing.

We'll all kind of back up behind them and I you know, I grew up charismatic and that was one of the things. Let's get these great stories. He used to be a drug addict and he used to be a Hells Angel guy and he converted.