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Apologetics Live

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July 28, 2022

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00:07: Can you show me because we're gonna use some hermeneutics Can you show me anywhere in the Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual because again,
00:16: I understand you're appealing again, sure Wait a minute,
00:23: I thought I was gonna get to have a talk. You asked a question. Hang on a second, sir Be quiet. No, listen, there you go.
00:29: I will mute you because it's not your show you asked a question I'm gonna give you the answer Genesis 6 for the word
00:37: Olam is used referring to those who are of old Deuteronomy, I'll get just rattle off all the ones where it's used not referring to perpetual
00:47: Genesis 6 for Deuteronomy 32 7 Joshua 24 to 1st
00:53: Samuel 27 8 Job 22 15 Psalm 247 24 9 25 6 41 13 77 9 90 verse 2 103 verse 17 106 verse 48 119 52 1 feet of 43 3rd verse 3
01:15: Proverbs 8 23 Proverbs 22 28 Proverbs 23 10 and Ecclesiastes 110 should
01:24: I go on for more? blah blah blah blah blah Welcome to apologetics live
01:33: We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the Bible meet your hosts from striving for eternity ministries
01:40: Andrew Rappaport, dr. Anthony Silvestro and pastor Justin Pierce We are live apologetics live here to answer your challenging questions
01:54: Whatever you have about God and the Bible we can answer it. This is a ministry of striving for eternity so I See Chris Hough saying the opening
02:04: Wow Chris that opening was a classic that was when we had the author of Torah ism
02:10: RL Sussburg on and he we had But I forget what his name was something
02:16: Batman the Sunday School Batman or something like that and he was It was just great.
02:21: He we are gonna do some Hermeneutics here and then he kind of ignores the hermeneutics
02:27: Yeah, give me just one verse. Okay. I think I gave him a litany of verses So captain
02:36: Captain Black Eagle says I got a question. Just let me know when well when is when you come in Just go to apologetics live calm and join there.
02:47: That is the best place to go. We're gonna deal with This is open Q &A. I have no other co -hosts with me.
02:54: Everybody is out of town or busy or whatnot and So I am solo which means
03:01: I want you guys to come on in and join me in the discussion So go to apologetics live calm
03:08: From there you scroll down you'll be able to see the watch it from there Which we encourage you to do but you can scroll underneath that and actually click the little duck icon
03:18: And then you'd be able to actually join us and if you can join in the discussion We will be happy to take your questions
03:25: I may not get all the questions that are in the chat because I don't have anyone else as a co -host
03:33: Typically give you guys a little behind -the -scenes what we do the reason we have a couple of us co -hosts is because while one person is talking the others are looking through the chat and We mark off different things to to have in discussion
03:47: Let me bring in my brother Chris Huff who's here Thank you, sir for joining.
03:52: You're welcome, buddy. I didn't want you to be all by yourself. Yeah, do you like that opening? Huh? Oh, oh, man, that that was hilarious
04:01: Yeah, that was it was a classic I just I couldn't believe I was like, oh I gotta keep I gotta keep this
04:07: I'm glad you did man. I'm glad you did. Oh But what we're gonna do tonight and I see that Ron just joined
04:15: So we're gonna I'm gonna bring him in ask his question but what I plan to do in light of questions is
04:20: I hope others do come in and have questions, but Some of you may remember the name
04:27: RA Fuentes Well, he's back at it. He's done another debate on Calvinism.
04:33: Wait, wait for it. Wait for it last time He debated me it went miserably for him, but he debated me on the topic that Calvinism was
04:42: Dangerous useless and dangerous Well, that just wasn't enough he debated a brother
04:50: John Myers and the the topic was is Calvinism demonic and heretical.
04:57: Oh This is a good one folks. We're gonna play through clips of it now granted I didn't know that John actually took a copy of it and put it up on YouTube And so you could watch that actually let me grab that link and I'll put it in the chat
05:11: So everyone can watch John's Video, but I did not have
05:17: John's video at the time. And so I couldn't grab clips. So all I had was to basically look at the
05:24: YouTube the Facebook so I have I have times listed and so I couldn't switch over to his because I gotta keep it with the times that were recorded because there was like 15 minutes of gee, we don't know how to use stream yard.
05:38: We we don't we have a moderator that Doesn't even can't even connect. I mean it was He tries to present himself as like this professional and it was really bad
05:49: In many ways that we'll get into so so we're gonna look at that. But let me first bring
05:55: Ron in Captain Black Eagle. Welcome, sir. What questions do you have for us tonight?
06:01: Do I sound okay? Loud and clear brother better than me. So don't worry It sounds great, okay back before Roe vs.
06:11: Wade debate There was a guy that was coming into a Christian group and he kept wanting to debate
06:20: Christianity even though he said he was a Christian Which is you know, always questionable to me when somebody says that a lot of people say that Here's what he gave as his
06:33: Problem with Abortion Okay Okay If you commit one sin, you were guilty of all sins
06:45: Christ's death took us from being under the law Therefore if all sin is the same then once said we are free of a penalty of sin.
06:55: I Don't really believe that's true Well, he you may not pick up there was a logical fallacy in there.
07:03: Yep Okay, well a couple maybe but he said At least the way you read it, right that if you're if all sins are the same
07:15: Well, where did he get that? That's what I asked him straight off I said have you read
07:20: Numbers and Deuteronomy to find out that each sin has a different completely different Well, I will you know where you go go to Hebrews because Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10
07:34: Are passages that we look at that? Who is it that has the greatest judgment the greatest sin is those who actually know the gospel and reject it
07:43: The more knowledge you have of the gospel and the rejection of it that has a greater consequence to it
07:49: So it's funny you say that Andrew because I'm sitting here actually studying for Studying for a couple of things that are gonna be coming out next week on matter of theology and I'm studying second
07:59: Peter and Peter talks about Once you've been granted the precious and magnificent Promises of Christ been granted for Christ himself as a gift that that gift that knowledge has been bestowed it
08:13: Upon you if you fall if you escape Assumably having escaped the defilement the corruption of the world
08:21: But then fall back into it that the punishment upon you is Is worse and in fact
08:28: Peter said in verse 21 of chapter 2 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of Righteousness than having known it to turn away from the
08:38: Holy Commandment handed on them Yep, I agree. And I mean, that's why
08:44: Hebrews 6 Hebrews 10 I mean Hebrew 6 as it is impossible
08:50: For a person who once tasted of the the truth and walks away To know it.
08:56: That's right So I like I gotta put this, you know your podcast you do is matter of theology
09:02: Here's your co -host weighing in and goes wait, what are we talking about a matter of theology? He knows
09:07: I already told him Well drew you just found out you better be studying He better he better jump on Hebrews 6 passage and Be ready for it.
09:19: But I mean so so right off the bat there there is some logical fallacies there because One is not that he never supported the claim that all sins are the same
09:31: Yes, any sin no matter what sin it is. It gives us the eternal damnation
09:39: But it sounded and I mean maybe you'd have to reread it But it sounded to me like he was saying though if Christ died for any sin, he dies for every sin, which would be universalism
09:50: Again Wasn't put that way How did he put that read that last part again? if You have commit any sin
10:00: You you know, all sins are the same Mm -hmm. It's not You know, he wasn't talking salvation because quite frankly he didn't want to talk about that right after that Yeah, cuz you you'd mentioned that part and then afterwards it sounded like he that what he said was
10:20: If Christ died for any sin, he died for all of them Christ's death took us from being under the law
10:28: Therefore if all sin is the same then once saved we are free of the penalty of sin
10:33: Which I do not believe is true at all. I think God especially Before you die can still bring as he did to David can still bring a curse upon you
10:45: Well, he brings I mean scripture is clear he chastises those he loves Correct, and there are consequences to our actions.
10:53: There are consequences to our sin And so while eternally eternally if we are in Christ and we truly possess
11:00: Faith in Christ then the eternal judgment the the wrath that we would experience the wrath of God in hell eternally
11:08: Yes that has been paid for but there are still consequences and we still will be held accountable for every thought word and deed
11:14: Done living this life on this planet, especially after we know the truth Yeah, he was trying to argue that you know, if you steal a pencil, that's a sin
11:24: But if you murder somebody that's sin too. They're both the same. I'm like, no, they're not both
11:29: Well, they're they're both a sin and they both have an eternal consequence. They're both. They're not both the same however
11:37: Just you know, like there is this notion that it sounds he's implying that if you're if Christ died
11:44: Then the law is done with and since we're post Christ. There's no law for us.
11:50: That's That's not a line antinomian ism right there. Yeah. Yeah and on antinomian ism for folks
11:56: I don't know is the idea no law so it's an anti -law that there's in other words that's the belief that we can live any way we want in Christ because There's no law anymore.
12:06: And and the law is still written on our hearts I mean the we still have and you can look and look in the
12:13: New Testament Nine of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament, right?
12:19: okay, so if it was done away with that that makes no sense that he would that we have scripture reiterating the same commandments that we look at I mean it's so there's a
12:33: And but this is good for folks to pick up though Rob because here's the thing that you end up seeing this is a way of arguing that you see from people where they they make a statement and Then it's it seems like it's being proven out by the things that were said before but then it's just a claim and The claim is so the two claims one that all sins are the same to that.
13:02: There's no law anymore Those are two claims. He never actually supported in in what you read, right?
13:07: well, not to mention he's not addressing the issue the Issue when it comes to the the matter of abortion is it's it's elective abortion is murder period period
13:17: He's he's it's kind of a deflection measure. I don't know this guy I don't know the all the context of what he's saying, but it sounds a lot like deflection a little bit of manipulation
13:28: All there's a lot of manipulation and that's why I didn't even like that group in general because even the
13:37: Moderators from that group are progressive Christians and they are very irritating no such thing.
13:43: Yeah I know there's no progress in it and there's no Christian in it. Yeah Well, it's it's it's progressive.
13:51: No Christian They were trying to say if they were Nondenominational Assemblies around the world.
13:59: It's not non -denomination. It's their denomination. Yeah Yeah, it's it's a
14:06: Demonic in a nicer tone. Yeah, because it's that's where it leads to right?
14:11: I mean, that's the progressive Christianity That's where it's leading. It's it's to take someone from a solid biblical teaching and lead them into the world
14:20: That's all that's progression. Why would we want to progress from truth and eternal life?
14:27: into sin and death Yeah, the only progression in a Christian's life should be the mortification of their sin and growing in holiness
14:35: Amen, according to the scriptures John Owens wrote a book on that he has
14:40: Thomas Watson. Yeah Yeah, some great reading if you if you really want to you know,
14:46: I will admit reading John Owens is not easy But he's got a whole chapter on Indwelling sin and mortification of sin if you can't read those if it's too much then
14:58: I'll at least recommend this get a book It's called the enemy within by Chris Lundgarten and that is kind of the cliff and he says it's the cliff notes version of those two volumes by John Owens and Clearly clearly there's some things in there that are his own and not from Owens because he talks about at one point
15:16: I still remember this but he says, you know, we come to God and pray Why is it that five minutes in prayer and we're sound asleep
15:23: But we can stay up for an hour and a half and watch a Tom Cruise movie So right early
15:28: John Owens didn't write that because well, that's before all washers talked about that He's he's talked about how it's you know, if you sit down to try to binge watch something on Prime or Netflix It's easy to do but you sit down and try to spend that amount of time in prayer and Bible study your body will rebel
15:45: Against that because the flesh is at war with with with the Spirit, you know it's interesting with that though is when when
15:53: I was in college and I was in the charismatic movement and we would sit there and literally stay up all night in prayer, but it wasn't really prayer literally for hours binding
16:05: Satan Speaking guys did an awful job. Yeah, he kept getting out
16:11: I Right, but but it was interesting because I realized like we we would we could spend hours and hours and hours doing nothing spiritual speaking gibberish talking to Satan It's that that's not even profitable and then you end up having when you're you come out of that nonsense
16:35: Into truth and it's like oh, oh, yeah, and now now all of a sudden your flesh is rebelling against it
16:41: Right, right question didn't rebel when it was nonsense sitting and spending an hour and gibberish The flesh is like cool.
16:48: Keep keep it up. You're right, right? No fight there Yep So Ron any other questions you have for us?
16:57: No, that was a good. I had not even thought about Hebrews I should have but I just went straight back to Numbers and Deuteronomy.
17:04: I'm like, well, there is a consequence for everything you do even if You are saved already because you still are going to be weak and you're going to sin at some point
17:17: There's a consequence for it. That's right Hey, we're gonna throw John in here because you know, we always see
17:23: John do stuff in the background here there here He is he's eating, you know Yeah, he's eating the chicken that It's it's summertime.
17:32: We should start seeing the chickens again But But The thing reason
17:39: I went to Hebrews though Ron and this might be to jury and and the first Peter is a good one As well is because what you do is you turn to a person like that and say, you know the gospel
17:48: I've shared it with you. You're you no longer have excuse So you are under a greater judgment than the murderer in God's eyes, right?
17:58: You knew the truth and rejected it. Yep. Yep, you know So it gets it at least redirects the conversation back to the gospel
18:07: It's the difference between second -degree murder and first -degree murder. Yeah Yeah, you can figure it that way.
18:14: All right, I'll get you backstage and if you have more questions, just pop it in the private chat and we'll
18:21: We'll bring you back in. I'm almost tempted to pop John back in while he's popping food in his mouth
18:29: But John has just all you know We're gonna wait to see for folks who are not if this is the first time you've watched the show
18:36: We have some regulars John's a regular and he usually he doesn't go. He doesn't have his name as John You know, you know, he says dude, you're so mean
18:48: So so when we take you see if I take this off and you see it says Andrew rapper Chris Hough is our names
18:54: John usually has something more creative. And so it's right now It's just John because he's waiting for a fun topic to change his name to and that gets him back in here
19:03: So let's let's bring this up Chris. You'll have a lot of fun with this as well We're just gonna play different clips of this.
19:10: This is a debate already. I haven't seen this you Yeah, you haven't seen this and and folks here.
19:17: I'll give you guys all a challenge right now. I Don't even know what you use for your search engines
19:22: Go out to your search engine right now bring up another browser window.
19:28: Here's what I want you to do type in RA Space Fuentes just put that in Why because I when we had the debate with him
19:40: I said Because he wanted credibility He wanted to he was gonna show and if there's any of my
19:48: Filipino friends out there Please share this right now. I didn't want to do this
19:53: I didn't want to announce we were gonna do this because I didn't want him to block me from the page Before we you know, and then we couldn't have the video
20:02: Had I known that John had a copy I would have just used that and not worried and then
20:07: I would have promoted it So so share this So that folks in the Philippines see this because RA Fuentes is a real problem out there
20:14: We're gonna see his debate style if you haven't seen the debate I did with him go check that out But in your search engine if you did the search for RA Fuentes the number one
20:24: I don't even know what your search engine is the number one search Thing that came up was striving for eternity exactly as I told him it would you did that Chris?
20:36: Yes, I can confirm that that is that is the truth. What was number two? Was that one of his or was that?
20:43: Number one RA Fuentes apologetics exposed striving for eternity comm number two Why in the world are you debating
20:49: RA Fuentes striving for eternity org? And then number three RA Fuentes apologetics on Facebook.
20:54: So there you go So we promised him that with the the power of the
21:00: Internet With the way we are the size and the traffic we generate that anyone searching for him would find us before him
21:09: Yep And and that is there was a point where you had to get like six or seven
21:17: Articles down before you got to his own stuff Because there you know just pastor
21:24: Justin wrote some articles and we had Josiah wrote some articles and I wrote an article and so they all were coming up before him
21:32: And so we promised him he wasn't gonna get the credibility We're gonna see some of the same behavior here now, it is kind of interesting as debates go they bring in your co -host here
21:43: There he is down there at the bottom. Hey, buddy. Howdy. There's mr. Drew Well, I know you'll have fun with this as well.
21:51: Mr. Drew but as we look at this, um,
21:57: I want you to notice a couple things just debate All right, when we do a debate When you do a debate the real key in the debate is is in the cross -examination
22:09: Cross -examination is is like one of the most important parts of a debate because that's where the two people can can go
22:18: Basically ask any question of each other now, I will admit I didn't get through that.
22:23: This is like three hours and 22 minutes long 22 minutes of it was just him explaining that you know, like trying to figure out how to use the technology, but So I haven't gone through the questions from the audience
22:37: So I'm just looking at the debate just from the debate itself that we'll play clips of but here's the thing. It's interesting
22:44: When whenever someone does that wants to do a serious debate what they're gonna look for is as much cross -examination as possible
22:53: Typical debates if you see any of the debates that we've done here on this channel, it's an opening on each side
23:00: Followed by rebuttal of each. What are you doing? You're you're doing a rebuttal of the opening and then at least one very long or two
23:10: Shorter rounds of cross -examination. I prefer two rounds of cross -examination So that things that come up when the other person is crossing that you can now bring up in a second
23:20: But the cross -examination is the key of any debate and then the closings Now or your your opponent is really exposed, correct?
23:29: That's where you're getting to the heart of the issue. And when I'd set up the debate with Ari Fuentes And and by the way,
23:37: I will note you guys can listen to the way that I refer to this gentleman If you any of my
23:43: Filipino friends out there, you can put in the chat and and you'll know how he refers to me
23:49: He refers to me as rapper because he shows nothing but disrespect He refuses to refer me by name it's one of the things you end up seeing where he tries to so I'm glad he's in a in a jacket and tie and One of the things he pinned the comment
24:07: I wonder if I or he had the comment on here asking that for Calvinist to please be polite.
24:18: I Debate That aside When we set up the debate, he didn't even he said he's done a hundred debates
24:27: But he didn't even understand the difference between rebuttals and cross -examination And he wanted he wanted to the rebuttal time for it to be longer so we could ask questions
24:38: And it was like you were teaching him about debate as the debate was going on I mean, I watched the whole thing from start to finish and I go this guy's never debated
24:47: Because he does he doesn't know how to do it. Yeah That that became abundantly clear
24:55: In the debate itself, but you're gonna see that in here as well So what they did the way they set it up was two rounds of rebuttals
25:03: Now, this is something in all my debates that I've done and all the debates. I've watched I have never
25:10: Seen anybody do two rounds of rebuttals? What's the rebuttal the rebuttal is a rebuttal to the opening statement, why do you have to rebut that again?
25:20: what you're really doing is extending the the time of monologue and avoiding dialogue and The whole reason that John Myers did this debate.
25:32: He really didn't want to have to do a debate He was trying to reach out to mr. Fuentes, but but mr.
25:38: Fuentes refused. He said he would not Talk to him. He said ever since the rapper.
25:44: I won't I won't do anything that unless it's on my Channel for a formal debate so he wouldn't have a conversation
25:53: And and I I told you know, mr. Myers that that exposes that all mr.
25:58: Fuentes wants is is a platform He just wants to grow a platform. So we will be happy to To expose what he's doing and expose that that's all he's looking for is all that you pointed that out in your debate with him
26:12: Because he he initially also went after dr. White and dr White didn't want anything to do with them.
26:17: And then the reason you debated him was to expose him, correct? Which we did
26:24: That's bad when dr. White won't debate someone like this, but will Steven Anderson that that tells you anything
26:31: Dr. White he wrote he wrote to Andrew and said I'm not gonna debate him. This is why and Andrew said, okay
26:37: Well, I'm going to expose Yeah, I mean and and that's what happened is, you know, look
26:43: James White was absolutely correct and we exposed that Mr. Fuentes should not be debating
26:49: Calvinism because he does not understand the topic You should never do a debate when you don't understand the topic.
26:55: I mean one of debating We're gonna expose that here as well because he's gonna he's gonna expose that he shouldn't be debating here
27:04: Captain Black Eagle says I used to judge college level debates. Andrew is very respectful and clear and so mark says
27:16: Possibly because his own page is so that's why he could take advantage
27:21: And what I think mark is trying to say is he wants it on his own channel where he can control the mic um
27:28: It was son. He was not happy in our debate that he couldn't control the mic and be able to stop me from exposing his behavior and You know, but he was able to as you guys remember if you watch the debate
27:42: He kept asking for the closing prayer, but when we got to prayer He didn't want to pay attention and he says oh,
27:48: I just was taking my earbuds out because I was answering something But he knew exactly when we said amen
27:55: Amazing Wow. Yeah, so let's play for some of this here this first one
28:03: He is going to so remember the topic is is Calvinism demonic and heretical and he's gonna bring out
28:10: Galatians 1 and he's gonna try to show and that Galatians 1 proves his point
28:17: Galatians 1 proves Calvinism is both demonic and heretical I See, I see
28:23: Chris opening to Galatians 1 So I'll have you maybe read that when we get done listening to mr
28:31: Fuentes and see whether at any point this addresses anything related to Calvinism, let's see my
28:41: So in Galatians chapter 1 verse just 1 2, I mean 1 6 to 9 I Forgot that I listen at high speed and you guys probably don't
29:00: People make fun of me because I listen to podcasts at triple speed and People like how do you hear what's going on?
29:08: It's so that I concentrate better. Unfortunately Facebook. I can only do double speed YouTube I can do more
29:15: YouTube I listen at at 4 speed or 5 speed because I actually have an app that's on there to speed it up even more
29:21: But sorry about that. Yeah. Yeah, I actually have a thing to help me read, you know for it's called speechify great
29:28: If you want it, that's great. Yeah, I read along with it and you can speed it up And so when
29:33: I'm reading it's usually about four and a half times Normal, but it helps me to concentrate.
29:39: I know I'm strange. I'm weird Everyone tells me But pastor Aaron Stagner found out the way to really infuriate me
29:47: We are listening. I think was Phil Johnson or Todd Friel and he did it half speed. Oh No, no, that was too slow.
29:57: It was driving me crazy. He was having a blast He's driving in the car going and just putting he's putting on He's putting on like wretched or something and it was on half speed and I'm like just turn it off.
30:08: I Can see doing that with Phil because Phil has that uses a lot of words like Abner Chow But Todd Friel, no.
30:17: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let me play this again given we're given a let me just share my screen so that I can share my my
30:30: The verses okay, so in Galatians chapter 1 Verse Just 1 2,
30:38: I mean Galatians 1 6 to 9 So we believe that there are there's the only gospel there and there are people that would pervert the gospel of Christ the same author
30:51: Okay. Now, let me just stop there before he does it a jump Chris you you have that passage up there.
30:56: I do Can you read that for us? Absolutely Paul under the inspiration of the
31:02: Holy Spirit says I'm We agree to one thing I want to ask you you you are a Calvinist, right?
31:08: Absolutely. Okay, cuz I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you Another question after you finish reading it. So go ahead.
31:13: Okay. All right I marvel that you are so quickly deserting him who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel
31:20: Which is really not another only there are some who are disturbing you and want you to distort the gospel of Christ But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to the gospel
31:34: We have proclaimed to you let him be accursed as we have said before So I say again now if any man is proclaiming to you a gospel contrary to what you received
31:45: Let him be accursed Okay, so that mentions Calvinism right negative.
31:51: Okay. So the question is he's saying the gospel we have preached to you Now I think we would agree with mr
31:59: Fuentes that any gospel that's contradictory to the biblical gospel that we see that Paul preaches
32:06: Would be anathema would be accursed and we would agree with that So let us see what he's gonna say is the gospel and Chris as he goes to this next passage.
32:18: I Want you to tell me whether you agree or disagree with what the passage says as a
32:24: Calvinist. So let's go. Okay Declared the gospel to us in 1st
32:29: Corinthians chapter 15 verse number 1 2 4 or 5 That it says here for I delivered unto you first of all that Which I also received how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
32:48: That's the that's the gospel that we know of here only in the scriptures Okay All right, so let me ask you
32:57: Chris drew you you'd also your Calvinist yes Okay So if we could if we could turn to that passage there
33:04: Chris if you could read that one actually maybe drew if you have That passage you could you could read that one since Chris already read one
33:11: And see what you know, is this as a Calvinist? Is this the gospel that you believe?
33:18: What was it 1st Corinthians 15 through 4? 3 and 4 3 and 3
33:24: All right. This is what you're for 1 through 4. Yeah. Okay 1 through 4. This is what
33:30: Paul says Paul says Now I make known to you brethren and I am out of the NASB 90 95.
33:36: I know Chris is out of the LSB We just want to make the distinction there Now I make known to you we wait you're in the
33:46: New Arminian Standard Bible I'm in the
33:52: Lord's Standard Bible. Oh, is that what it is to the Lord's? You know what?
33:58: Okay, look For the
34:03: LSB Now before I was so rudely interrupt
34:13: Paul he says Now I make known to you brethren the gospel which
34:19: I preached to you Which also you received in which you also in which also you stand verse 2
34:25: By which also you are saved if you hold fast the word which
34:30: I preached to you unless you believed in vain verse 3 For I delivered to you as a first importance what
34:37: I also received that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and That he was buried and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures
34:50: Okay, so let me let me ask you gentlemen. There's three things that we see here as Calvinists Do you believe that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures?
35:02: Yes. Yes Do you gentlemen as Calvinist believe that Christ was buried?
35:09: Yes. Yes Do you gentlemen believe that Christ as Calvinist do you believe that Christ was raised on the third day accordance with the scriptures
35:20: Yes, huh? That's really strange because he just said that that makes us heretical
35:27: I You know now what you end up seeing is and this is the thing that you have with with mr.
35:35: Fuentes This is his debate style He doesn't actually engage with with anything that said whether in scripture or by his opponents
35:45: He has a monologue that he just kind of goes with and so what you end up seeing is
35:53: It doesn't have to be coherent, right? Well not to mention the fact that he's he's applying
36:00: He's applying and implying things from scripture that aren't true Aren't according to the scriptures, which is blasphemy of the very name of God.
36:10: Oh You just wait you just wait for it, okay But you know
36:18: Andrew you say that you're talking about this idea that he's he's using this monologue that's almost pre -prepared and he's not listening
36:25: To what anyone's saying, right? I mean we saw that with latent flowers and dr White and the famous Romans 9 debate where he didn't engage anything.
36:33: Dr. White said correct But when you debated him there were several times Correct me if I'm wrong several times that Justin Pastor Justin Pierce basically stopped the debate to help him out to say hey
36:47: This is what he's saying and you're not engaging with what he's actually saying
36:53: Engage with I mean basically handing it to him and saying you got a deal with what he's saying.
36:59: You're going completely off -track Yeah, we're and and I was asking him very simple questions at some of the time just yes or no
37:05: Right and you know now I will say I mean if anyone hasn't watched my debate with mr
37:12: Fuentes what we did expose was that mr. Fuentes is a Calvinist He just doesn't know what
37:18: Calvinism is. I mean and we did that in the cross -examination My purpose of the first round of cross -examination was to not use the label tulip
37:28: Which is how he defines Calvinism his whole he will say this throughout Calvinism is tulip
37:33: But he never really defines what tulip means he can tell you what the acronym is but he can't tell you what the meaning is and we expose that because what
37:43: I did in in the first round of cross -examination was give him the definitions of each of those five points and He agreed with all of them and I welcomed him into the family of Calvinism in my second round of cross -examination
37:58: My purpose was to to get to the fact that when we use what is total depravity that he had a wrong definition
38:06: So second round I used each of those five points and asked him to explain the acronym
38:11: He didn't get a single one. Correct, right and so in his His idea that Calvinism is tulip.
38:18: Well, it's already a flawed foundation because Calvinist won't say well Calvinism is tulip will say tulip is is a part of Calvinism It's how we explain certain things but Calvinism first and foremost starts with the sufficiency of Scripture, correct?
38:33: That's where it starts with and then from there is where we gain our doctrines of soteriology It's where we gain our how we view man in total depravity
38:41: It's how we view God and his his unconditional election and that we merit nothing. We bring nothing to the table so it almost starts with the sufficiency of Scripture because I'm sorry
38:52: Andrew really turn reform theology Which is which is the thing most people don't understand reform theology is not just a salvation
39:00: And he's gonna make that mistake later in the debate where he says this only has to do with salvation
39:05: It's like well, no actually reform theology is much broader than just the doctrines of grace brother
39:12: Thank you for saying that because there are so many today. So and drew and I've talked about this publicly privately
39:18: There are so many today who have given themselves the moniker of reformed when they shouldn't be if the only thing they're reformed in is
39:26: They're soteriology reform theology Calvinism, it's it's the whole purpose of this is to get back to what is already in the scriptures.
39:35: It's not something new It's not something extra. It's it's a way think of it like confessions
39:40: It think of it like a 1689 like a Westminster a way to keep us on the tracks in the scriptures
39:48: It's and you know, the one thing you can't be Chris. What's that brother? You cannot be a charismatic
39:53: Calvinist That's very true. And if you want to know where I get this from, please check out.
39:58: Dr Lawson's message from the strange fire call man Calvin's critique of the charismatic Calvinist Because the the
40:07: I mean charismatics by definition have an open canon They have to yes, you have to because God is still speaking today
40:14: And and reformed theology says the canons closed so so You know right off the bat when you end up seeing and I should mention this if you guys watch the debate
40:26: Just know this Brother John Myers. It is his very first debate.
40:31: He didn't want to do a debate But he but mr. Fuentes would not allow a discussion
40:39: Unless it was a debate on his platform so I Don't encourage any
40:46: Americans debating with mr. Fuentes because as for Americans may not realize in the
40:51: Philippines Having a debate with American gives you credibility and I did the debate
40:57: I don't know how many dozens and dozens of dozens of Filipino brothers and sisters were begging me not to do the debate because they said you don't understand what it's like for us here
41:07: You as an American doing a debate with him gives him credibility and I kept telling him just wait just trust me
41:14: He won't have credibility when he's done because we expose that he doesn't understand the topic, right?
41:21: so Let me jump and and I'm sorry that this is not as clean as I would like where I'm having it kind of jump
41:29: In the video, but that's that that was all that I thought I had And so this is the next section
41:36: Where he's gonna he doesn't understand why people go to hell Okay, just check this out
41:45: You will never benefit that gospel. So number two Calvinism attacks the character of God Why let me explain the
41:52: God in the Bible is sovereign loving just and good He is a good judge and no respecter of persons
41:58: Therefore his justice is fair and just as a good judge. All sinners are condemned to hell and must go to hell
42:06: That's justice in Calvinism if you believe in a unconditional election
42:13: God chose some sinner over other sinners without clear condition unconditional
42:19: Why would he choose some sinner to heaven and leave the other group of sinners to go to hell? Then since he chose some he would regenerate some of the elect to believe therefore saying obviously in Calvinism Men would go to hell not because of what they didn't do.
42:35: I Believe the gospel, but they go to hell because of what God didn't do
42:44: Okay, so I mean I see Chris's face
42:50: This blew me away Like he doesn't even understand the basics people go to hell because they sin against an infinitely
42:57: Holy God. Oh, wait, let me let me correct that. He's not just infinitely holy and infinitely just but mr.
43:06: Fuentes Romans chapter 9 says he's also wrathful You're believing in a false gospel of God is love
43:14: God is have all these nice sweet things and he wouldn't send anybody to hell One attribute of God is the
43:22: Deification of one attribute of God and I would say this that based upon that if that's what mr. Fuentes believes
43:28: Mr. Fuentes does not possess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yeah No one deserves heaven
43:35: Everyone is run. I don't get to go God. No, that's not Everyone is running as fast as they can towards hell why because in our fallen nature
43:43: That's what we want and it's grace and his mercy that he is anybody and he turns
43:49: This person and draws him to himself and he turns this person, but it's it's again.
43:54: It's unmerited No, no one deserves it. We all deserve hell and that's what actually makes our worship
44:00: That's what makes our worship meaningful because we go. Oh my goodness. I Deserved the wrath and the judgment of God But he saved me when
44:09: I was an enemy of him when I I was a God hater and I hated him He saved me.
44:15: Well, actually drew. We don't say oh my goodness. We go. Oh, I have no goodness Of that this goes back to you
44:26: I mean just I've been living in second Peter for the last week specifically the first chapter of second
44:31: Peter, you know But but this goes back to this. It's like who are we? First of all, first of all, just just Romans 9 alone
44:38: You know, who is the? We can't look at the Potter and say you don't get to do with what your creation what what you desire to God is holy.
44:49: God is perfect God is just having this kind of view and this kind of mentality is the product of pragmatism
44:58: Oversentimentalized rick warren trained seeker sensitive Blasphemous worship.
45:04: Yeah, that's what this is the result of so you're saying he was one of the 1 million trained by most likely Yeah, maybe let me read.
45:09: Let me read the passage that we're referring to in romans 9 because this is like I'm now i'm gonna say this all i'm gonna do is read this
45:17: Because later you're gonna see and we're only on clip two and I got a like a dozen clips here. So But then again,
45:24: I thought I was gonna be alone and I didn't know we'd have so much discussion I thought it was gonna be just me but the the I just want to read this and and have you always watch andrew.
45:32: Yeah I just because he's gonna say that what calvinists do is add into scripture
45:37: Which is really funny coming from the debate I had with him, but here's romans 9 on the start of verse 14
45:42: What shall we say then is there injustice with on god's part by no means may it never be
45:49: May it never be the the most the strongest way he could say no verse 15 for he says to moses
45:56: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion
46:03: So it depends not on the human will or exertion
46:08: But on god who has mercy For the scripture says to pharaoh for this very purpose
46:17: I have raised you up that I might show my power in you
46:23: And in my name that might be proclaimed in all the earth so then
46:31: He has mercy on whomever he has mercy and he hardens whomever he wills
46:38: You will say to me Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will but you but who are you oh man to answer back to god
46:50: Will what is molded say to the molder? Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use?
47:03: And another for dishonorable use What if god? Desiring to show his wrath
47:10: And to make known his power Has endured with much patience vessels of wrath
47:18: Prepared for destruction In order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy
47:28: Which he has prepared beforehand for glory Now, mr.
47:33: Floyd man. Wow. I don't like your interpretation of that passage. Exactly Exactly That's exactly what he would say
47:41: And what did I do? I read it the text and you know, it's interesting with the text in just a simple reading
47:48: Paul is asking the very things that he knows someone like mr Fuentes would ask and provides the answer
47:56: One of the most terrifying things for any believer should be to be described in scripture in this way
48:04: Like like paul is right here when this was written Thousands of years ago right now paul
48:11: Through the inspiration of the holy spirit is writing about someone like that That should terrify us as believers that we would never be in that position
48:19: To where man I could have been standing on the opposite side of paul and paul asking me those questions Yeah, we don't get to question god
48:28: He's the one that's granted to us Through his divine power everything pertaining to life and godliness.
48:35: He's the one who's granted bestowed Gifted to us His precious son his precious and magnificent promises that we might walk in them
48:46: Through no choice of our own through through no, we don't it's a gift. We don't deserve it
48:51: We don't get to stand there and say no god That's not right that you sent that person to hell because you didn't save them.
48:58: Yeah, and and chris honhold says this he says Funny how all those objections get specifically answered by paul almost as if god anticipated those very objections
49:09: What would mr. Fuentes refer to this as well? He's gonna tell us. Oh And he wanted to fly of course, then he put an engine to uh into one plane, but let me back this up Just a little bit
49:22: He did not go to one verse Oh, I should back this up because this is kind of funny.
49:27: He says we couldn't he can't give one verse It is not because they are incapable of believing as calvinism teaches
49:35: That would be crazy That would make god an evil god for not
49:41: Huh? romance five Yeah, I mean it's like I mean this this debate is is
49:49: I mean you you wonder how john could keep a straight face but He does Good on him wake up for example
49:57: What would you call a man if he uh who made two toy airplanes and he wanted to fly of course
50:04: Then he put an engine to uh into one plane But did not in the other that then obviously the one with an engine flew but the other did not
50:13: Then he was disappointed and broke the one without the engine because it did not fly Is he not crazy?
50:20: This is oh my god terrible analogy So this is he must be watching late in flowers and he he learns to interpret
50:30: Let me come up with an illustration and that's interpret scripture, okay But but but watch what he says next watch
50:37: Calvinism an evil god who judge already a person because of not believing while he is incapable of doing it
50:44: And now you still wonder why calvinism is demonic and heretical doctrine Yes Yes, I should believe it's it's demonic and a heretical doctrine because uh,
50:56: I put a I didn't put an engine in a plane And here's the thing as the creator if you created a plane
51:05: And you put an engine in one and you didn't put an engine in the other as the creator Is it okay for you to destroy both
51:15: Yeah, if i'm a creator it's perfectly okay for me to destroy both planes, okay Jason, jason cave just said it.
51:21: Here's what i've been thinking the whole time you can't compare Us to god in that way, right?
51:28: Yeah, you no No, you use scripture to interpret scripture. You get your you get your analogies and descriptions and and illustrations
51:38: Get them from scripture because then that way you won't sound like an absolute idiot because If if someone creates two planes and expects both of them to fly but only puts an engine in one of them
51:50: Well, that's because he's he's a moron. It didn't put an engine in both of them here here You say interpret scripture with scripture.
51:56: We can go back to romans 9 we can um, because it says it in there How about jacob and esau?
52:02: Yes, jacob. I loved esau. I hated Yeah, now now let me
52:07: I want to make sure I understand he says That it somehow would be wrong for the for someone to make an airplane and not put an engine in it and be upset because It doesn't fly
52:16: Is that assuming that you can't have a it's it's almost sounds I could be wrong It sounds like he's saying that you can't create a plane without an engine
52:26: Ta -da There's my plane without an engine. Watch it fly I can expect a plane to fly without an engine.
52:37: I'm, sorry analogy For the podcast audience you just missed the look on chris's face when
52:47: I pulled up the paper airplane awesome That was awesome In that analogy.
52:53: He's I think I would have done that in the debate if I was debating Pulling out the plane and throwing it
52:59: I got your plane for you Walk down the stairs and wonder why there's a paper airplane
53:06: Right, right But uh, he's he's really attacking God's knowledge.
53:13: Oh I wanted to make a plane, but I couldn't make it fly Really? Yeah, I would
53:19: I wouldn't put that analogy on god. So you're saying god can't god. God can't save everyone
53:24: No, it's interesting you bring that up because a lot of what he argues in this debate is that the problem calvinism is
53:31: That calvinism has is that attacks the nature of god Which I find very interesting because as in my debate with him he he never
53:40: One of the things I realized he did not listen to anything that I explained Okay, as I tried to explain the nature of god the problem is is he he reads these passages as if god is bound by time and limited in knowledge
53:59: What do I mean by that because when you read passages like Before the foundation of time that god elected before the foundation of time ephesians one
54:09: God is not some being Who had to figure out who is going to be saved for him to know it, right?
54:16: He's omniscient He's eternal. So He's not bound by time that he had to see what we were going to do and react to that He chose the whole reason that that Paul's writing that is to say he chose apart from anything that you had anything to do with it
54:35: He chose he's basically saying before the foundation of the world He chose us now in god
54:41: To god, was there a before the foundation of the world? No, because that would make him bound by time
54:47: That's the whole thing. So God uses language to explain to us
54:53: Things in such a way that's not due to his nature What what he would do is put that change the nature of god to require him to be bound by time and knowledge limit his knowledge because He's reading it literally and not saying okay.
55:10: What is the character of god? Oh god's eternal god's omniscient Well, he's reading it through a framework of of he stands we stand in judgment or he stands in judgment over god
55:20: Then he's reading it through a framework and a hermeneutic That is not found in scripture. Well, you're going to see that because he's actually
55:27: Let me let me give you the he i'll start with this one Uh where he defines what a cult is?
55:34: Okay, and this is going to be son. I like this is one thing that that john myers picked up on And and tried to carry through throughout
55:43: Okay, and and to hammer home because this shows Because he's saying it's demonic and heretical
55:49: Okay, he doesn't define what a cult is properly now as as you guys know i've written a book on world religions
55:55: I know many others who have written and read many others of on world religions and cults and i've seen many definitions for a cult none like this
56:05: Like Uh, I pointed out earlier that if that's unbiblical that means it's not godly
56:12: It's not the doctrine of god. So that's that's That's for sure. It's uh from the devil and uh heretical doctrine regarding the uh, what you have said it's about like for example,
56:27: I I also have a principle Unbelief about how to identify a cult
56:33: And I believe a cult, uh, if uh, if a person or maybe that that uh,
56:42: Belief is Uh, it does not believe about that trinity, uh trinity
56:48: Then I consider them called If they do not believe in the deity of christ.
56:55: Yes. I do consider them called heretics so -called and also regarding soteriology so, uh right now, uh, if if you are if your gospel is
57:10: Not what the gospel teaches the bible says you are a curse
57:16: And that's for sure heretics Okay, so so I want to point out what he what he ends up doing with this
57:22: Okay, first off a cult by the way, my my bride just walked down the steps gave me a very puzzled look
57:29: And picked up my my paper airplane and and kind of put it over on She threw it back and it came
57:37: I wanted her to I wanted her to but she just placed it down on the table but gave me this very puzzled look so not that i'm a prophet, but So what you end up seeing is
57:50: A cult by definitely there's a lot of different ways. You can define a cult But one thing that everybody has when they define a cult
57:58: Is control Every cult no matter how you define it It has it's a system of controlling
58:07: He's just basically saying if you disagree with the bible Now you can talk about in one sense.
58:14: Yes. It is heretical when you say anything that's not biblical There is a sense that yes, that's heretical now.
58:21: The question is it damnable right heresy? There you go Now there's a difference and he is correct when he says that if it comes to the gospel of salvation
58:30: That would be a damnable heresy as according to galatians one If you have a different gospel, but here's the thing he never proves throughout this entire debate
58:41: That calvinism is another gospel See because calvinism is a gospel.
58:46: It says god did it all Which by the way, that's what muforentes believes you go watch my debate with him
58:53: He believes that A damnable gospel is one where you say that you need works for salvation
59:01: That's a different gospel. That's actually exactly What paul's dealing with in galatians with the judyizers who are saying you're saved by faith plus Works.
59:13: Oh, by the way, it sounds like roman catholicism because it is But they wanted to put people back under the law get circumcised and do the things that you had to do as a jewish person
59:24: And so here here he is another section where he's gonna he's basically gonna say the same
59:29: The same thing as we just heard so check this one out People in hell
59:38: They will uh, they they are they are they're now in hell today in god I should say this is the same as what we saw earlier not the just the last one
59:46: But this is where he talks about not where he's going to say why people are in hell so this is his reason why people are in hell and and I I you know,
59:55: I saw uh, chris honholtz basically saying earlier like this guy's a train wreck Okay The this this is a core understanding of the gospel why are people why do people go to hell
01:00:09: That's core And he doesn't understand it. He wants to try to say that you're we're blaming god
01:00:16: In calvinism people in here hell they are in hell today not because of what they didn't do
01:00:23: Not because they do not believe But in calvinism they are in hell right now because of god did not regenerate them
01:00:32: And it's very clear in order for you to be to be saved to be in heaven as in calvinism
01:00:39: It must be that you are elect And then god would regenerate you for you to be able to believe the gospel and respond positively to the gospel
01:00:47: That's why you will be saved and Who is the first cause? Who would uh, who would cause a man to believe?
01:00:56: In calvinism, it's not like ours like, uh, uh, you're drowning and then someone would would uh, throw a lifeline
01:01:04: So it's not it's not like that. It should be you are dead right there and then uh, uh god
01:01:11: You're uh, it's it's god that would pull you up right there and uh
01:01:16: Because of his what he did then you will be saved and that's not bible Okay, that's he says that's not bible.
01:01:24: Um Okay okay, first off his is his analogy like again, we have the interpretation through analogy from late in flowers, but Oh, there's a guy in the boat and you have to throw him a lifeline.
01:01:38: No, he or a guy in the water No, he's not in the water. He's at the bottom of the sea. He's already Yes. Yes dead
01:01:46: Preserver in the water. It's it's getting a scuba tank on and diving to the bottom and bringing the guy up Yeah, ephesians tells us we were dead okay necros which means dead like a corpse there's no life in it
01:02:00: That's why when we see when we see jesus raising lazarus. I mean we that that is the perfect example of what we were
01:02:07: We were lazarus Stinking in the corpse, even if you want to save you guys
01:02:12: The guy's in the water. He's floating a dead man's float He's not grabbing the lifeline.
01:02:17: You're throwing him because he can't he's dead. But did you hear it was really interesting sometimes
01:02:24: Somebody says the truth that they don't want you to believe right? Because what did he say?
01:02:30: He's he asked whose causes you to be saved Well, if it's not god who causes you
01:02:36: Then who causes you? Well, he said that earlier. Did you hear him say the god of calvinism believes that god regenerates you?
01:02:45: Okay, if god doesn't regenerate you who does fuentes you
01:02:50: You regenerate yourself The wicked horrible sinners that we are we can regenerate ourselves.
01:02:58: Well, it's like what r .c. Sproul says He says if I can regenerate my heart, I I have no need for a new one
01:03:03: Well, or or well, let's go with what paul says since he wants to quote galatians right Uh what we have in galatians
01:03:12: Here's galatians 2 20 and 21. I know a lot of people know 20 but 21 becomes important.
01:03:19: I have been Crucified with christ. It is no longer I who live but christ who lives in me the life.
01:03:26: I live in the flesh I live by faith in the son of god who loved me and gave himself for me
01:03:33: I do not nullify the grace of god for if righteousness Were through the law then christ died for no purpose if you could regenerate yourself.
01:03:45: Mr Fuentes then christ death is Needless Okay, let me uh, let me bring in.
01:03:54: Mr. Edison here. I know he's eating But uh, he is uh from the philippines. So it's morning his time uh, he's been on here before and has has
01:04:02: Has helped out with the debate that I had with uh, mr. Fuentes. So welcome. Yes.
01:04:07: Good morning. Welcome. Good morning here in the philippines You're having breakfast i'm assuming
01:04:15: Yes Okay So i'll bring you in so you could you could discuss as well as i'm gonna flip you to that side
01:04:22: And uh so that we can uh go through this Um now this next segment that I want to look at is quite interesting um
01:04:31: Because it's it's gonna show that he does not understand what eternal security is
01:04:38: Okay, so we we now realize he doesn't know why people go to hell He doesn't understand that doctrine
01:04:47: We've we've seen that he he doesn't understand what a cult is or what heresy is
01:04:52: He never defined demonic by the way in the in the debate that I heard Uh, but if you if you
01:04:58: I mean anytime you do a debate any debate The first thing you do is define terms
01:05:05: Which is what you saw me do when I debated him I gave him definitions of terms and saw if he believed it.
01:05:10: I gave him the words to see if he could define it He couldn't do it properly That's the whole reason he shouldn't be doing debates on calvinism
01:05:19: Maybe a seven -day adventist or whatever. It is that he got known for doing debates on right? It was a seven -day.
01:05:25: What was it? He debated Edison, what was the big topic he was debating before and was it seven -day adventism or yeah.
01:05:31: Yeah, he's uh, Seven -day adventism and roman catholicism. Yeah, and so maybe he got a following from debating those things
01:05:39: But this is a topic he he clearly doesn't know anything about Listen to his definition, uh as he defines for us
01:05:48: Um, he's going to define for us What it is a uh eternal security
01:05:54: That's not viable All right, so i'm still asking for for verses to support this view if not, then uh, my case is established
01:06:05: Tonight. Okay. I'll just stop it there. He wants a verse a verse
01:06:11: Now he said earlier I didn't get the clip but he says in in the debate earlier Just uh before I jump back to that.
01:06:17: He's he had said that christian that calvinists can't just Read the scriptures they have to and they have to read into it.
01:06:27: They add things to it They twist the scriptures by adding things into why is that important? Well, here's what
01:06:32: I read during my debate with him that he had and i'll challenge you to go and watch the debate
01:06:39: Uh, all I did was read this passage philippians to philippians 1 29
01:06:46: And and he didn't interpret it the same way that I read it. Okay for it has been granted to you
01:06:54: That for the sake of christ, you should not only believe In him, but also suffer for his sake it has been granted to you
01:07:05: Oh So your belief has been granted that's what it says your belief has been granted to you
01:07:11: All I did was read that and he ends up giving it a whole different meaning He he's saying it because why because it it hit with what he was actually
01:07:21: Believing his his worldview doesn't match with the bible. All I had to do as as we just did earlier
01:07:27: I I read a lengthy section romans 9 14 all the way down to 23
01:07:34: I didn't interpret that But just reading that he says there's not one verse
01:07:40: There's several verses that all you have to do is read it A simple reading of it.
01:07:45: It actually even asks the questions that he ends up asking in these debates
01:07:51: God even gives the answer to them and you can go Throughout the the entire gospel of john, right?
01:07:57: You can go to john John 10 to go where the pharisees ask him. Tell us plainly. Are you the messiah?
01:08:03: And what does he say? He says i've told you yeah, you don't believe why because you are not of my sheep
01:08:09: Well, we're gonna get there in john 6. That's where I just turned to yeah Oh, yeah, hold your place there because that John myers will bring that up All right
01:08:20: So let you can play the the rest of this with what I was we were originally trying to get which is his definition of eternal security
01:08:27: And also as I pointed out, uh, is that two minutes or one minute? three minutes
01:08:34: Two minutes. Okay. Um, yeah, okay. Did you by the way? Did you I didn't catch that the first time I heard it? Did you already is that is that one minute or two minutes the moderator says one minute and what does he say?
01:08:44: Oh good two minutes That's why he wants to be on his own On his own platform.
01:08:50: Okay, he wants to be on a platform where he can just go Okay, i'm gonna pretend like i'm i'm asking the moderator and then i'm gonna override him
01:08:58: Two minutes. Okay. All right. Well after these three minutes, we will get back to it But then you know four minutes later, okay
01:09:05: So now I I have I didn't do this, but now I want to watch I want to see How many minutes he goes from that one minute warning this?
01:09:11: Let's see if he does go over the one minute or two minutes a communism taught on biblical eternal security
01:09:18: That's for sure because if you're elect there's no way whatsoever There's no chance whatsoever that you will go to hell anymore.
01:09:25: You are eternally secure and that's outside christ That is not gospel. That is not bible the bible
01:09:32: You will start our eternal security starts when we believe the gospel when we are in christ
01:09:38: Therefore we are secured eternally not before we believe not.
01:09:44: Uh before we hear That's not bible That's not even bible. So if you are against the bible having a uh,
01:09:52: Another gospel and twisting scriptures or even having this false eternal security that would make you doubt of your salvation
01:10:00: How would we not call them? uh demonic heretical and uh
01:10:07: What we call that occultic doctrine Only the doctrine not the people because people can be saved
01:10:14: You can be saved before you were a calvinist or even after you are a calvinist you can be saved
01:10:20: You are not the one that is heretical or a demonic or cultic but The gospel itself because that's my four points right now is still untouched.
01:10:31: I would like to hear it Later on from the rebuttal. Okay Now I played longer than I wanted to just because I wanted to see how long he went two and a half minutes
01:10:41: Okay, so You know, I mean the the issue is and I address this in in the debate with him that I had um
01:10:50: He he knows what he says When does eternal security start when you believe? That that's what he's claiming when you believe
01:11:00: That's when eternal security begins Okay Does that line up with scripture?
01:11:06: No, no, no, it doesn't What we end up seeing? Uh in scripture, this is colossians and I and this came up in our debate as well.
01:11:16: I brought this up Okay because the question is When did our sins get paid for?
01:11:24: Right now, you know he is arguing our sins are paid where at our belief
01:11:33: That's his argument Right his argument is when we believe
01:11:40: Then that's that's when we have eternal security Now it is kind of interesting because did you guys catch it?
01:11:46: He he said that we could be eternally secure outside of the calvinists believe we could be eternally secure outside of christ
01:11:54: Like I was like, wait, what? Calvinists believe everything's in christ and you say we get saved outside.
01:12:01: Okay, that's that's kind of interesting But here's here's what it says. This is colossians 2 13 and 14
01:12:09: And you who are dead in your trespasses and uncircumcised in your flesh
01:12:15: Made alive together with him having forgiven us of all
01:12:21: Not part all our trespasses. So that seems to be indicating I could be you guys correct me if you think i'm wrong
01:12:27: But that seems to be indicating that all of our trespasses are paid At some time right, okay, let's see when that is
01:12:37: So all trespasses By canceling the record of debt that stood against us and its legal demands this he set aside nailing it to the cross
01:12:51: So so eternal security Was at the cross Not when we believed it our debt was paid at the cross not when we believed actually
01:13:05: If I may I I would take it for for those Who are god's elect?
01:13:11: right because because We believe in the ordo salutis and the necessary beginning point of the ordo salutis is the the election correct
01:13:22: And so when we when we talk about the foreknowledge of god Foreknowledge what distinguishes foreknowledge from predestination or just the the plain?
01:13:34: omniscience of god the all -knowingness of god foreknowledge is a relational term
01:13:41: So if if god foreknows us before the foundation of the world It it's a relation term and and I like what pastor john snyder says he says
01:13:51: It is god initiating a relationship with a rebel Before that rebel was even created and in such a way that guarantees the rebel
01:14:02: Will be made a friend So the foreknowledge of god as a relation as we view it as a relational
01:14:10: Term within the decree of god that we see Now in john 6 where it's the decree of god that jesus loses none of them
01:14:19: That's right. It was always god's plan to have a people for himself and Be given as a love offering to the son for his glory
01:14:30: Yeah Let me let me put up some comments that chris hon holds is saying here The the reason he will not accept passages is because he already has a predetermined
01:14:41: He has already predetermined that they cannot possibly mean what they actually say
01:14:47: Uh, chris also said this Wait, the elect are saved in time
01:14:53: In time is on all caps. Our salvation is predetermined before the foundation of the world, but we're actually saved in time
01:15:02: Because chris is exposing what we said earlier and pointing out what we said That the whole problem.
01:15:07: Mr. Fuentes has is he has a different god He has a god that is bound by time and is not omniscient
01:15:14: That's what he's actually arguing for he's actually arguing for a very weak god, too Yeah Can't keep me saved either.
01:15:22: Yeah Well, I you know, he he doesn't believe that god that will lose our salvation When we when we in the debate, he said that you know when when someone's saved well,
01:15:33: I mean I hear him say that but if if he believes that we can regenerate ourselves and we can come to our
01:15:38: Then we should be able to lose our ability to lose it on ourselves by ourselves also Well, I guess I guess
01:15:44: We regenerate ourselves, but then god holds us Because we're now regenerate Hey, i'm trying here, all right, we got a half dozen more of these to get to and You know the this this gets more interesting.
01:15:59: So this one i'm going to play a little bit of a longer clip uh hear what he ends up saying it, you know, he he
01:16:06: He he ends up, um, he needs to prove his case and we're going to get into the whole question of sheep here in john 6
01:16:14: And who are the sheep? um, but I'm, just gonna i'm gonna warn you ahead of time Maybe I shouldn't maybe
01:16:20: I should just let this go because I want to see chris's reaction. I'll i'll leave this go I i'll just preface it
01:16:28: Because I like see this is the thing. I love when chris is usually backstage. We get to see his reactions All right, chris i'm just going to tell you
01:16:34: I want you to be listening for this. Okay Who is the gospel gospel means good news, right?
01:16:41: Who is the good news for let's let's just listen, okay Okay uh, he told us that uh,
01:16:48: I uh regarding the universal atonement if that's our our uh, our
01:16:55: Stan Then I I need to prove it. No, that's not the case I'm in affirmative side and we're talking about my points my premises my arguments
01:17:06: Why calvinism is Uh demonic and heretical, uh heretical doctrine.
01:17:11: Okay, let me just stop it. So you guys know, um at this point He never actually proved that in the debate much like my debate with him
01:17:18: He just stated it And then said I haven't been proven wrong A statement is not proof like this is the whole reason he should not be doing debating because he doesn't understand what a debate
01:17:29: Is you can't just make a claim You you set out a premise You then support the premise with logically valid arguments
01:17:40: And then you draw a conclusion What he does is he gives you a conclusion goes. No one can defeat me
01:17:49: That's actually not the way a debate works that's not actually an argument there You know, you're just how you have a conclusion.
01:17:55: That's all you have and then he claims. Well, no one no one proved me wrong Well, the reason no one proved you wrong is because you never proved yourself
01:18:03: Right. He has as he said there. He's the affirmative he's required
01:18:10: To prove his points Not just state them, but that's all he did.
01:18:15: He stated him and then said well you didn't prove it wrong. Well John myers doesn't have to prove anything actually, right?
01:18:24: He's he all he has to do is point out that you didn't make your argument. Mr. Point is that's what he does
01:18:30: He can prove that you didn't make a case Which you didn't you just made a claim. Yep Or he can show you that the claims you're making are not valid which by the way he did we're going to get to a one amazing clip, but Let's talk about the gospel
01:18:49: Why is calvinism so wrong? Not only does it have a totally different god what he says it attacks the nature of god, which
01:18:55: Our god is omniscient eternal his is not you figure out which one's the real god, but okay, let's let's listen
01:19:02: So I don't have to prove my point my uh, my uh stan regarding universal atonement, that's not okay
01:19:09: If you're affirmative, yes, you do. Thank you the whole point That's the whole point of an affirmative if you're in the affirmative you have to prove your point
01:19:17: Otherwise people are walking away going Well, was he right or was he wrong? I don't know.
01:19:23: What's the point of this debate exactly? I mean that that right there is the clip to show he doesn't he shouldn't be doing debates on any topic, but especially this one
01:19:34: Not the topic of this debate. I would like to say that and uh, so so universal atonement is not the purpose of this debate on calvinism
01:19:46: Yeah, I see If you're if you're saying calvinism is demonic and heretical and then you go through your debate and you're listing out why it's demonic and heretical but Part of your argument is that there's universal atonement in contrast to limited atonement
01:20:08: That becomes a point of the debate that you have to address because you're making the statement And then you have to defend it
01:20:14: Like you said you can't just throw things out And then just let them let them lie you you have to if you make an assertion you have to defend your assertion
01:20:23: Correct. That's exactly what a debate is So, all right, let's get to this this part i'm waiting to see chris's face on the gospel, here we go
01:20:35: That's not true that you said regarding the uh, uh say
01:20:42: It's not uh, you can say it's false I did not say it's false
01:20:47: I I just did not say calvinism is false. I say that calvinism is uh
01:20:54: Cultic or demonic and uh heretical doctrine. It's because of my four points
01:21:00: Okay, now Demonic is it then false?
01:21:06: It can't be true This is one I'll put it backstage for a second
01:21:15: One of the things that that john exposed was that he actually asked. Mr. Fuentes Is it because it's wrong?
01:21:23: That it's heretical and he says yes Oh, here we go chris on holds
01:21:28: I have declared it thus it is so that's really that is really mr Fuentes's argument i've declared it therefore.
01:21:35: It's so I haven't said it's false, but it's heretical and demonic But I don't have to prove it
01:21:41: I just say it's false and by being false that makes it that i'm right So it this is the logic and and and John myers did a great job throughout of exposing
01:21:54: You're saying that it's heretical because you disagree with it. I mean, that's really what he's saying. It's wrong
01:22:00: He's never shown from the scriptures. It's wrong, but he's He's actually going to show from the scriptures. John's going to do to him
01:22:06: Exactly what I did but not as detailed but he's going to get him to admit to the truth And then john's going to go.
01:22:13: Oh, so you're you're wrong Like you you can't say you're if you're wrong, then you're heretical.
01:22:19: It's it's kind of funny But let's listen Their gospel, uh and biblical eternal security um twisting scriptures
01:22:30: Just like this You said uh regarding john chapter one. I mean just john chapter 10
01:22:36: You said that uh, the ship cannot hear uh, that's in verse number 26
01:22:41: But you believe not because you are not on my ship as I said unto you It's not saying jesus christ is not saying about the gospel that they cannot
01:22:51: Believe the gospel. No, it's it doesn't say that there's no gospel in here. This is talking.
01:22:57: This is about jesus christ uh saying that he is the good shepherd he's talking about the ship and uh,
01:23:04: The ship and about the hireling that's the uh, that is the point or the context
01:23:10: It's not saying that they could not believe the gospel because they are not shipped it's it doesn't say that it says they
01:23:18: Uh, just don't believe exactly what it says christ is teaching them saying We're not sheep
01:23:24: But you ask, uh, sir. John you ask Can anyone can someone become a ship?
01:23:30: Yes Yes, he can become a become a ship. Let me give you a A verse to prove my point a ship.
01:23:38: That's why uh, we are called ship. Uh, that's figurative Uh call a name of a uh, son of child of god
01:23:46: That's why we are called ship a ship. That means a ship is a child of god.
01:23:52: Can someone become yes? Uh, john chapter 1 verse number 12. It's just like your sounds like your name john chapter 1 verse number 12
01:24:00: But as many as receive him To them gave he power to become the sons of god
01:24:07: That's becoming a ship even to them that believe on his name So you're uh, that's that's a twisting scripture john chapter 10
01:24:16: It does not say you did not believe the gospel because you are not shipped that it doesn't say like that The context is about jesus christ claiming.
01:24:25: He is the ship a shepherd and he is also jesus christ Proclaiming that he is he is uh, he is god in the flesh
01:24:33: It's not uh, there's uh, there's no uh gospel in here. So, uh, that's that's twisting scriptures
01:24:40: And what else? Well, I would say here Uh, let me just stop that i'll play a little bit more
01:24:47: Time out there's a reason why there's the illustration of shepherd and sheep because Sheep are stupid animals
01:24:57: Okay But sheep don't choose their shepherd The shepherd chooses his sheep and then the sheep
01:25:07: Learn the voice of the shepherd and then they follow the shepherd and then they stick close to the shepherd.
01:25:13: That's right No, no, he says there's no gospel in here Let me just okay, i'm, sorry,
01:25:20: I I just want to read the text Okay Okay Chris I knew this was going to trigger you.
01:25:27: All right So this is john chapter 10 i'll start in verse 22 at that time the feast of dedications took place at jerusalem
01:25:36: It was winter and jesus was walking in the temple and at the colonnade of solomon
01:25:42: So the jews gathered around him and said to him. How long will you keep us in suspense?
01:25:48: If you are the christ Tell us plainly So jesus answered them
01:25:56: I told you and you do not believe The works that I do in my father's name bear my witness
01:26:05: But you do not believe because you are not of my sheep now
01:26:11: He did say if i'm correct, didn't he say that the sheep are the children of god? Okay Using john 1 10
01:26:19: Yeah so we'll get there too, but like Does Doesn't it sound like he's saying that these jewish people
01:26:27: Are not children of god then by his own definition, right? I'm just trying to understand what he's saying
01:26:33: Because it sure seems that way so Okay Let's keep going though verse 27
01:26:39: My sheep hear my voice And I know them and they follow me And I give them eternal life and they will never perish
01:26:50: And no one will snatch them out of my hand My father who has given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand
01:26:59: I and the father are one Wait, so eternal life is not anything to do with the gospel
01:27:07: And I love the way the the lsb renders this listen to this listen to this. Yeah, no gospel here at all
01:27:13: Um, and I give eternal life to them and they will never perish ever
01:27:19: And no one will snatch them out of my hand Yeah, there's that that emphasis of ever
01:27:25: But listen, right right just following through in the verse you have the title of christ, right?
01:27:34: This was being debated right? Okay, so you've got the title of christ then you have eternal life and eternal security
01:27:45: And and never perishing and in contrast, we know what the eternal life is It's in the
01:27:50: I will give them eternal life and they will never perish That that sounds an awful lot like the gospel
01:27:58: Oh Okay, i'm, sorry So, let me let me let me bring in then the the john one, uh passage that he refers to This is he's got an interpretation.
01:28:10: I can admit i've never heard before Let me bring in I see someone backstage i'm going to bring in a brother here brother alex, right?
01:28:18: a floridian You got to unmute yourself though Dude, i'm not i'm not used to this my friend.
01:28:24: Yeah, I know I know Yeah What do you guys uh
01:28:29: You go on matt slick's radio show all the time even bring up my name
01:28:35: To try to try antagonize and and then you don't come on here. So i'm I was actually going to call you actually
01:28:41: Uh this week and I was going to give you a hard time and now now you're here So I can't I can't do that.
01:28:46: So there you go. But uh, So so here's here's I want to look at this passage.
01:28:52: He referred to in john one about how we become a child of god because Mr. Fuentes, let me speak directly to you when we interpret scripture.
01:29:02: There is this thing it's called context That it's really important in understanding scripture
01:29:10: Kind of like we just did with the last passage where you said it has no gospel All we did was read the very
01:29:17: Next verse and it's all gospel. I can't wait for you to do that here So he he says here that people can make themselves a child of god
01:29:28: That's that's what he said. Well, let's read the verse So it says here first john 1 12
01:29:36: But to all who Did receive him Who believe in his name he gave the right to become a child of god now notice
01:29:47: What mr. Fuentes said is he had the power? That's not what the verse says the right
01:29:54: You have the the right to be called a child of god when you believe how do you believe the very next verse tells us?
01:30:02: Who were born not of blood? Nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of god
01:30:10: So what does this mean? What is not of blood? It means of your genealogy So I thought
01:30:15: I was going to heaven because I was jewish my my genealogy saved me No, it's not my blood the will of the flesh.
01:30:22: That's just your desire The fact that you you desire it this is like when you look in in pilgrim's progress
01:30:31: And you have you you have you know ignorance who just wills it he just wants heaven So therefore he's going to have it
01:30:38: No, and so you you end up seeing again Not of that not of the will of man.
01:30:44: In other words not by your works. So he's saying it's not by your genealogy It's not by your desire So it's not that you're a good person
01:30:52: It's not by your good works No, it's of god That's how you have the right to being a child of god, how do
01:31:00: I know that? Because it's in the context because conveniently Oh, yeah.
01:31:07: Yeah say that again. He conveniently stops a verse late because the very next verse just disproves his entire position
01:31:14: Twice he did it. Yeah Does this guy just rip romans one out of the bible? He just rips it out of the bible
01:31:21: No, he rips everything out of the bible I Mean really he reads his bible like this
01:31:29: Closed yeah As I go, that's awesome Check this out.
01:31:35: We'll watch chris's response on this Um another gospel,
01:31:43: I think uh I was not able to write uh someone here Or something here
01:31:49: What else? Okay, so, um back to my point my point is still uh untouched
01:31:57: Okay, let me know if uh, you still Uh say that the gospel in the bible, which is the death burial and resurrection of jesus christ
01:32:09: Is that good news to you if you are not elect? Please answer that or even uh later on since we have uh, we'll have a uh across examination
01:32:19: Be okay, so Let me ask you guys questions
01:32:25: Let's put our arminian hat on Mr. Fuentes.
01:32:31: Are you saying? That the good news of the gospel has to be good news to those in hell who reject
01:32:42: Like that's that's what he's saying. It's it's not the gospel unless it's good news to every single person
01:32:51: What verse is that well, I mean even if his This is where he's just so flawed and doesn't doesn't understand just theology in general because earlier we were talking about Talking about his point of the universal atonement
01:33:07: If you believe in a universal atonement, you believe no one's in hell because everyone's in heaven because christ died for all sins of all people
01:33:13: Therefore hell is empty. Yeah, so who cares? Everyone's going to heaven.
01:33:18: Well, but he believes people are going to hell right, and and I mean this is the whole thing is like He he
01:33:25: I mean and I think chris says this well Um, because this is what he does chris honhold says you you get you gave answers, but I reject them
01:33:32: Therefore you didn't answer my questions. I mean that Right there sums up The debate
01:33:38: I had with him the bait that john myers had with him. It's no one can answer my questions
01:33:43: I keep asking no one can answer them because you ignore the answers It's you know, I mean chris honholds is typical just nails it every time but Like I have never heard
01:33:56: Anybody even those who hate calvinism? argue That the gospel has to be good news to the unrepentant sinner
01:34:06: I mean, it's good news. Anyway, regardless of whether the unrepentant sinner accepts it or not
01:34:11: Yeah, whether whether they accept it has no bearing on it non -starter. It really is a non -starter It's a point now.
01:34:18: He made that his main point Because because he argued that a couple times in debate it was like really that's what you're gonna make is as the case
01:34:28: Okay, no because because you know, it's so there are two ways of looking at it There you know
01:34:33: If you want to engage that point if there's ever anyone out there who actually brings this up and you want to engage this point
01:34:39: Here here's what you can here's here are a couple of different Thoughts you could go with according to scripture
01:34:45: Number one that those in hell hate god they are experiencing his wrath They chose they rejected him.
01:34:52: They rejected the good news. It doesn't change the fact that it's good news You could also go to luke 16
01:34:58: And look at the rich man and lazarus and look at how the rich man actually said go and warn my brothers
01:35:05: Go and warn them He's expressing go and tell them to repent and believe in this good news so that they are not experiencing
01:35:12: This eternal torment that will never end under the wrath of god So, I mean if you want to engage a let me just say what it is a stupid argument
01:35:22: In that way that then you can but my goodness. I mean, that's just I mean and the people in hell, right?
01:35:31: They all god did was give them exactly what they wanted there you go So What's the problem?
01:35:38: So chris honhold says Well 23 years of listening to people twist words and give screwball excuses does help me get to the heart of what people are really saying
01:35:49: Um chris and I just talked about that yesterday. Yeah being a police officer does help right? So so bill says this
01:35:55: I think bill Found where uh, mr. Fuentes is getting his bible verses from And he says found the verse
01:36:05: First opinions 333 and second moronicals 11 45 that is that is
01:36:13: Matt slick right there Uh for folks that don't know who matt slick from karma .org that what people ask him like say really dumb things.
01:36:20: He'll say Oh, yeah, I found that in in first opinions Whatever or or second moronicals being a moron
01:36:28: That's a good one. I've never heard. You know, this this reminds me of uh, I remember hearing on dr
01:36:34: White's program a while back about sam shamoon was doing a debate with someone And he was talking about all the creatures will be saved under christ something along those lines
01:36:43: And he even said the devil was capable of being saved like they were pushing back on that It's a really strange argument and it went so strange that dr.
01:36:54: White commented on his program about it. Well, sam has um, I mean from what
01:37:00: I understand sam is like Arguing defending catholicism now or something. Yeah. Yeah A block tirade
01:37:07: I think like a couple years ago where anyone who commented anything on his page that he just disagreed with he just blocked
01:37:15: I've never seen people do that before when they're in the wrong, right? Not even r .a
01:37:21: fuentes, right? Yeah. No, he blocked me pretty quick Yeah, along with everybody who agreed with me in the debate.
01:37:27: So so check this one out This is I still have like five more Four or five more clips.
01:37:33: So let's listen just by reading the scriptures I'm gonna back that up because that one really was good to hear where he thinks he he's just all he does is read the scripture the sake of time, but I have laid down I have laid down some said that I did not uh,
01:37:49: I did not present the uh about calvinism No, this is the other side of the coin that you did not see
01:37:56: Calvinism has different gospel and you cannot know by reading the scriptures. That's for sure
01:38:02: Okay, all we did Several times is read the scripture without comment romans chapter 9
01:38:11: Mr. Fuentes, please Go read it Any of paul's epistles the gospel of john?
01:38:19: Goodness gracious. Yeah You cannot know that you are one of the elect if by just by reading the scriptures you can
01:38:30: You can know if i'm elect and then say that again. I can know if i'm elect. Yeah Yeah, because my my my heart has been changed.
01:38:38: I I once hated god and now I love god Yeah, that can only happen if i'm elect if if if my nature has been changed.
01:38:47: Yeah Look at this fruit. Look at that fruit. Yep. Matthew 7 That is right.
01:38:53: Yeah other people can tell if i'm elect too. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's true That's the case then the good news of calvinism is one day that you would know
01:39:04: That you are one of the elect. That's the good news. It's not the death burial and resurrection of jesus christ
01:39:11: So please attach that in your rebuttal. Uh calvinism attacks the character of god again
01:39:16: It's because god it's because of god that people would go to hell
01:39:22: Don't let don't don't uh, don't say that people would go to hell because of uh, because they are sinners don't say
01:39:31: Because you're not you're not why else do people go to hell? It's because they believe in jesus christ why they believe because they were
01:39:44: Regenerated why they were regenerated because they were elect So people in the opposite the other side of the coin, which you cannot see because you're blinded
01:39:55: They would go to hell because god did not elect them did not regenerate them and then they go to hell they didn't believe
01:40:05: But that's that's that's not bible the bible. Okay. I agree with him. That's not bible And and that's the whole thing because no calvinist believes what he just said
01:40:13: Right, I mean that's it's like You know, he's sitting here and saying that calvinists believe like I chris
01:40:23: I saw you say when he says well you you believe because god regenerated you and regenerated because you were elect
01:40:28: Yes But but then he takes that and says so you don't really believe it's not the gospel that you you're
01:40:37: You believe that you're going to hell because you're a sinner You're going to hell because god didn't elect you.
01:40:45: That's not the argument that calvinists make Every sinner is in hell because they sinned
01:40:53: It's their sin that sets them there. All right, chris honhold says oh, yes, I need a tolerant
01:40:59: I need Tylenol now This this is migraine inducing But I mean
01:41:05: Oh, yeah, so does this guy think like because i've heard some people say like am
01:41:11: I one of the elect? I don't know if i'm one of the elect. Is he kind of coming along those lines when he's talking about this
01:41:18: Well, I think I think that his belief is that we would we're elect when we believe in god
01:41:24: Oh, I see. Okay That's that's because he said earlier we played a clip where he says that's when we get eternal security when we believe
01:41:33: Oh, okay Okay, yeah
01:41:39: Okay, he's way off the deep end. Okay. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no He's he's he's only missed the mark by a light year
01:41:51: Okay He's look like it's it's clear that the wisdom the wisdom of the cross is foolishness to him
01:41:59: He has a veil Over his eyes and he says that it's that it's john who's got the veil
01:42:05: He says you can't see this because you're blinded. Wow but what you see is We could read scripture
01:42:12: And he can't go go watch the debate and that I had with him and he is a calvinist
01:42:18: Like just just remember this the whole time when I defined calvinism without using the acronym tulip
01:42:25: He agreed with every point Uh, chris honhold says that a light year is too short of a distance
01:42:34: So wait andrew does this guy just is he just um attacking calvinism all the time is that his mo
01:42:41: Yeah, so his so his mo was he he started making a name for himself by going after roman catholicism
01:42:48: Uh, let me bring i'm gonna bring edison and just make sure i'm right on this Because edison's been following him from the philippines much longer than I have
01:42:55: So it was it was it catholicism was that before seven -day adventism uh, yes, uh first it was catholicism and then
01:43:04: He got hooked up with uh debates with adventism, but I don't see the hostility with those topics
01:43:11: Somehow I see great hostility in the subject of reform faith Well, because he's hostile toward the truth
01:43:18: Right, right, right. Yeah It's what we just read in john you don't believe
01:43:23: You know, I tell you these things but you don't believe because you're not of my children, right?
01:43:30: So so he made a name for himself attacking catholicism in that attack of catholicism
01:43:35: Uh, he a lot of believers were listening to him and following him.
01:43:41: Then he started going after seven -day adventism And now he's on a kick of calvinism where that's all he goes after well, you know
01:43:49: I want to bring up something here. It's kind of like a late in flowers type situation. Oh, yeah Attacking and you know what the danger of that is?
01:43:56: I was on a plane ride months ago and a guy sat next to me and we started talking about he actually said
01:44:02: We started talking about christianity. He said are you a calvinist? Are you one of those calvinists? It was It was crazy for him to just call that out
01:44:10: I said, yeah, I am and we talked the whole plane ride And all this guy did was listen to late in flowers for like the last year or two
01:44:18: And he was just regurgitating all the arguments and so many misrepresentations And you know praise the lord that at the end of the flight
01:44:26: I was able to clear up a lot of those misrepresentations and you know, we left on good standings and he's like all the calvinists
01:44:33: I've met were very angry and hostile and all this stuff and You know, so I was you know, happy that god used me to you know, try to unite the body there
01:44:42: Well, yeah brings up a bigger point though, too Is is I mean how often do do a lot of us do that, right?
01:44:48: We we we approach a a topic and whether it's it's theology or anything else where we we are recapitulating what we've heard instead of us ourselves going and examining the scriptures and and seeing that these things are so as the bereans did and so it's
01:45:05: That's that's a solid reminder for all of us. Yeah to always make sure that we're examining, uh, the things that we hear
01:45:11: I mean, that's I've listened to dr MacArthur often but one of the things that that I love about john is is
01:45:16: His his attention to detail and using scripture to interpret scripture to where you can go clearly see that this is what the scriptures teach so, you know,
01:45:24: I mean this is one of the an example here too is you know, he's he's He's pulling out one section and and twisting it exactly what is accusing john of doing uh with a framework the preconceived framework that he's coming into it with and then he's
01:45:38: Ignoring the rest of what what scripture says when when these these doctrines are are riddled
01:45:44: Throughout the whole of not just the new testament, but all of scripture. That's right Yeah, and let me put up what chris says chris honnold says
01:45:54: Fuentes really believes his complete misrepresentation is true but when confronted
01:46:01: He is wrong. He tells you it's a secret dark side. You never knew therefore
01:46:09: He can never be wrong You know But but really, you know captain black eagle nails it ra is just looking for a banner for money
01:46:19: Uh, he is this one of the things and and edison you you can attest to this that he has been
01:46:24: Trying to make a name for himself there in the philippines as this great debater Uh, he claims to be a pastor though we we've exposed that he was
01:46:36: Uh, basically in the process of being church disciplined out of his last church and then claimed
01:46:42: He just declared himself a pastor and he doesn't have any members that we could tell he's kind of an online church
01:46:50: This is his church. Um You know, he does these debates the this debate by the way, uh, if I remember correctly, it was a sunday morning
01:46:59: Right. It was a saturday morning or sunday morning. I forget now um I think it might have been a sunday morning
01:47:07: Well, let's see. It was it was five days ago So that would be what one two, three four so saturday, okay
01:47:14: But he does he does these these the videos on sunday mornings and I think that is his church that he claims he's a pastor of so That is something that seriously needs to be brought into question if he was being
01:47:29: He was under church discipline and just declared himself a pastor with with no church you know, um
01:47:39: And so that's concerning But what's what's more concerning is when you look at it, he's he's doing all this trying to make a name for himself
01:47:47: You can see that in the fact that he said to to mr. Myers. I won't even talk to you on the phone
01:47:54: One -on -one, that's what that's what he was. That's what john was asking for. Can we just have a conversation privately?
01:48:01: No, it has to be on my channel where we could debate Why because john's never done a debate before And you know what?
01:48:09: You know, it's really sad when you watch this debate John who's never debated before He did a better job debating than a guy who says he's had a hundred formal debates
01:48:22: Uh Brother andrew Mm -hmm.
01:48:28: Uh, yeah, we've met after your debate with uh with uh, prentice we've met personally
01:48:34: And he wanted to confront me personally uh with the issue of reform theology
01:48:40: Apparently, uh, i've showed him the scriptures And i've cornered him. He wasn't really a good debater in person uh
01:48:48: I mean Online we you know, we can let words go and we can let things go.
01:48:55: Uh, especially if we're not In person, but if you're in front of him and you confronted him, he really have nothing, you know, no substance at all
01:49:05: Yeah, you gotta fly to the philippines andrew Well I'm waiting to return to the philippines
01:49:13: Debate number two Yeah, so let's listen to this again we dealt with this before but this is this passage of That we saw in john 1 12 and the power
01:49:26: He interprets it the power To be a child of god and he assumes that this this power
01:49:34: Is from you know within the person they they they have the power within Um, which is very interesting to note.
01:49:42: Let's let's listen The election results in someone becoming justified in time
01:49:50: Which is becoming a child of god So I just don't think that they're identical
01:49:56: All right for uh for the audience for clarification Which is the ship which is the ship the children of god or the elect?
01:50:06: before they believe uh, I think it's both because the elect of god is constituted of everyone who would believe
01:50:17: In time and so obviously there's going to be a point in time where they believe but the elections prior to that Okay, you said both you see both
01:50:31: But that's both that means, uh, they are children of god Why would the verse says that god will give them power to become children of god if they're already children of god?
01:50:44: By receiving and believing jesus christ I'm, not saying that they That they um
01:50:51: Are a child of god prior to that what i'm saying is that they were elected to become one
01:50:59: So they they are given this power to become a child of god Via them being born again, which is what's said in verse 13
01:51:09: That they were born of god that precedes them receiving him
01:51:15: The grammar is impeccable here. I I think you really need to consider that All right.
01:51:21: So you you said they are uh, they are to become children of god. So I I you remember my question earlier which is
01:51:29: Ship, which is ship the children of god or the elect before they believe you said both
01:51:36: So, uh, that means before they believe they're already children of god now i'm asking you if Yeah, i'm still not finished.
01:51:46: I would like to finish my question Because you said I asked no, you know say he's like i'd like to finish right?
01:51:52: No No, he said no because you're setting up a false argument so he said no,
01:51:58: I mean like Like the you see what he's doing though. It's like he wants to define who are the sheep
01:52:06: Well, who did I I I mean one of the things I would like to hear is who does he think the sheep are Right.
01:52:14: Well, okay. So so let's let's Let's say the sheep are the children of god, but not the elect Right. So let's let's address what he's saying because you
01:52:22: Andrew you mentioned something about power there and in the lsb It's translated as right. It's exousia in the greek, correct.
01:52:28: Um, and it is Right, right, correct. And so it is the by the way, it's a noun correct.
01:52:34: So it's not a verb So the way the way fuentes is using it It the the grammar does not even work for the way he's trying to use it.
01:52:43: Correct, correct. So it's The what we can be of the elect it is both
01:52:50: I like the way john answered that because you can be of the elect um yet still The heart is still stone.
01:52:57: The heart has not been replaced with a heart of flesh You haven't been given the ability you you haven't been granted the gift
01:53:03: Uh of of regeneration you haven't been granted the gift of repentance Well, and the key here the key here is this it's in time right to us, right?
01:53:13: And this is where mr Fuentes is making the mistake because he keeps saying that calvinism messes with the nature of god but he's the one actually doing that because What you're seeing is he's trying to take election
01:53:24: The doctrine of election is a doctrine from god's perspective Man's perspective.
01:53:31: Oh, that's good. Yeah The the john one When it's talking about who has the right to be a child of god is from man's perspective and not god's perspective
01:53:41: And it's the privilege the privilege Yes, one is outside of time and one is inside of time, right?
01:53:47: And therefore what you end up seeing is this is where mr Fuentes has the problem because he wants to read everything from man's perspective.
01:53:55: Wait Sorry, that makes sense in his worldview because everything is man because he thinks
01:54:01: Men can regenerate themselves So man does what only god could do, right? I mean, it's
01:54:08: Go ahead. Yeah, andrew. Let me let me ask you a question. Was romans 1 16 mentioned by john in the debate thus far
01:54:15: Which passage romans 1 16 for it is the power of god unto salvation for everyone who believes
01:54:21: I don't I don't remember that coming up that okay. I just asked that Yeah, I asked him yeah he would
01:54:28: I asked that because it's weird because he just inserts power into that verse and that's mentioned in romans 1 16
01:54:35: So I was like maybe he's pulling that out and he thinks he's gonna it's just strange to me that that's why that's why
01:54:42: I was Asking. Yeah, I mean I found it interesting that he keeps because the word right here
01:54:50: That's that we have in in first john. I'm sorry. I keep saying john 1 12 can be translated
01:54:58: Okay as power it is it it's authority or power
01:55:04: It can be translated that way, but it's a noun Oh, okay. It's not a verb
01:55:10: That makes all the difference Because when you look at it as a verb
01:55:16: It's something you do or it can be done As a noun, that's not the case okay and so You know, it's it's a you know, kind of like chris said it's a privilege.
01:55:30: Yep. That's bestowed upon you. Yep So Yeah, I mean, well, let's let's let's continue on this is going to be a longer part
01:55:41: And and we're we're going to go into anthony time without anthony because I do want to get through these next uh Three clips that I have
01:55:47: I got a question about women preachers. Will we be able to get to that? Sure. Yes Okay, there's no such thing probably
01:55:54: I know there isn't I'm responding to someone so I need some advice. All right
01:56:00: Well, let's let's listen to this part You're ready you're gonna start your 10 minutes about uh cross -examination
01:56:11: Okay, actually I want to I want to point this out. Uh, like as you watch the debate in the cross -examination my my challenge to you is to Listen to john myers when he has cross -examination and and the reason
01:56:25: I say to do that is because Mr. Fuentes Never answered his one question.
01:56:32: Like it was the same thing that happened with my debate with him Where he never answered the question.
01:56:38: He just kept answering something else and I had to ask it again and again and again John goes through the same exact frustration
01:56:45: The difference was and this is why mr. Fuentes will only debate on his channel, I guess Because what happened when in our debate?
01:56:54: Was that the moderator as was instructed and mr Fuentes knew this was the this was the pre -arranged thing if you did not answer a question during cross -examination
01:57:06: The time is stopped You must and the time does not continue
01:57:11: Until you answer the question you cannot get away with not answering the question
01:57:17: That was the agreement And I asked him like six times the same question the moderator stopped it
01:57:24: As were the rules And go watch the debate. You'll see that he explained the rules were explained before cross -examination
01:57:31: So the rules were known He he says that we had a biased Moderator because the guy did his job
01:57:40: Hate it when that happens. Yeah, he stopped it And said no answer the question
01:57:46: Mr. This is why we have this in rules in debates because you have a guy like mr
01:57:51: Fuentes that just takes up all the time Never answering the question now, by the way, it is kind of interesting
01:57:58: Mr. Fuentes was you can tell that this guy samuel was not the moderator Not only from what we saw earlier when when he goes
01:58:05: Uh, do we have one minute or two and the moderator says one and he goes two and then takes two and a half well the moderator was going to allow a minute rebuttal and Fuentes ends up responding.
01:58:18: It's no we're only going to do a minute 30 seconds So he changed he's changing what the moderator is saying and that happened a couple of times
01:58:27: Okay And so what you end up seeing it is the moderator is just there so we could hear his dog bark
01:58:34: And that's that's what he's really there for like a dummy. Yeah, I mean he He really wasn't moderating nothing other than to stay the time
01:58:44: Okay, that that's that's what he was doing and so You know looking at this.
01:58:50: It's like all right He he's going to complain about the job pastor Justin did like you know
01:59:00: John kept having to ask him the same question several different ways never got an answer
01:59:06: And so we're we're going to see some of that in this All right, um
01:59:12: Do you think that A view being false makes it heretical
01:59:22: Yes, I do Okay Anything that's false is heretical but earlier didn't he say he wasn't saying that it was false
01:59:33: Yeah, okay and and taking something out of context would be false
01:59:39: Is he saying he's heretical? I'm just asking i'll go ahead and say yes he is
01:59:46: Yeah, but not because of that reason for other reasons All right the Let's listen because if it's false this against uh, the truth if that's against the truth, that's heretical
01:59:59: Heretical belief and that's not the truth. So there's only true and then false heretic sound doctrine
02:00:08: Next question now now I want you to know this. This is a pattern. I saw with mr. Fuentes He answers something quickly and then it goes next question
02:00:18: No follow -up allowed because I didn't answer the question Right usually now john's going to try to get him now that he answered that right if it's false
02:00:30: It's heretical. That's how he's defining it He I mean he's had a whole problem with definition of terms and you guys if you watch my debate
02:00:37: I actually get All those are efficient. I asked him up front for his definition of calvinism and he said that that's not how debates work
02:00:45: You don't give definitions ahead of time and I was like, no, that's exactly how debates work so that we're not talking terms define terms
02:00:53: Yeah, he couldn't define the term. That's why he didn't want to define the term. It's the same thing here
02:00:58: He doesn't want to he just wants to say it move on Sorry, edison That's okay. I was gonna ask because I didn't see the video at the beginning.
02:01:07: Did he define what is heretical? because I think uh, I agree,
02:01:13: I disagree a lot of Christian world would like uh, I disagree with a millennial but I don't see that.
02:01:19: I don't see that as a heretical uh, I I disagree a lot of um,
02:01:26: Uh hyper dispensation, but I don't see that as heretical So it doesn't necessarily mean that I view it as false.
02:01:34: It's a automatic heretical So I was gonna ask if whether or not he defines what is heretical or not
02:01:43: Not rightly Because he basically defined it this way if it's wrong if it's if it's unbiblical and so But i'm glad that you said what you said edison because that's exactly what john's gonna say.
02:01:55: Let's listen Okay Do you believe that someone who disagrees with you on eschatology
02:02:05: Is now affirming heretical doctrine You No, I would not because I have laid down the
02:02:13: Identify and the identification mark of a called a heretic heretical doctrine
02:02:19: If it's eschatology, there's no problem with that I'm asking how the calvinism is soteriology
02:02:27: Very very important soteriology christology and theology That's where I think uh, that would make you a heretic
02:02:36: Okay, so i'm not sure maybe you guys are smarter than me you can help me out. Um Eschatology Even times does that fall within the area of theology?
02:02:50: Hmm? Yes Um, i'm gonna have to go with yes I believe it
02:02:56: It seems to be in all my systematic theology books exactly
02:03:02: I mean If He he I mean, this is where this was the this for this debate.
02:03:09: This was the gotcha moment, okay this was the moment where John basically had him on the ropes and he didn't even see the punch coming
02:03:18: I mean it just it was the knockout punch that he was he was looking at the audience and saying I won
02:03:23: I won and then he turned around and walked into the punch. Okay, that's what that's what that was Um Soteriology Has eschatology because what about the consummation of our sanctification?
02:03:37: Yeah Yeah I mean, that's it. I mean The reality is he's and we already addressed this earlier in the program that when he talks about calvinism is just soteriology
02:03:50: Which is the study of salvation? No reform theology is broader than that And so he's focused on one area and he wants to limit it to one area because he's gonna say well if it's wrong then it's heresy because It has a different gospel
02:04:06: That's his whole argument, but he that's the argument there. That's the claim. He never supported it
02:04:13: Never once did he prove that calvinists do not believe in what he defined as the gospel death burial resurrection of christ
02:04:21: He never once proved that why because calvinists believe in the death burial and resurrection of christ, you know
02:04:28: I wonder if he would debate the calvinist view of prayer right,
02:04:34: I mean At that point like okay r .a. fuentes, how do you pray and how do you pray for lost souls?
02:04:43: Do you pray that you just hope that they have the power of themselves to change their their own heart and you pray that god just Sits back on the off chance that they that they choose him or do you pray?
02:04:56: God, will you intervene and save my loved one? Will you save my friend?
02:05:01: Will you? You know, maybe he prays like this Oh lord, give me the superior words to convince a person that they can regenerate themselves
02:05:13: Yeah, you know that's something I think about is like is he thinking that you know, he's
02:05:18: Because he has such a high view of man is he thinking when he's talking to these people that he's the one doing the work
02:05:23: He's the one changing them, you know Is is it really god, you know, is he coming from that perspective?
02:05:29: Yes, I I think so just I mean you can see that but the way he's the way he's Elevating himself above the scriptures.
02:05:35: He's he talks. It seems that way. Yeah And even the way he answered john's question there about heresy was
02:05:42: I have laid down markers that says this is heresy and this is not heresy and and I didn't
02:05:49: I don't think I have the clip but Uh drew that actually his son exactly has said because john actually says at one point
02:05:56: So you're saying if it's if it's false, it's heresy. So if you disagree with it
02:06:03: It's he's actually setting himself up as the standard what he believes Is the only standard of what's right?
02:06:11: Now, here's the thing I never claim That my theology is 100 right because I believe it right
02:06:21: I I argue that I think my theology is right because I think i'm following the rules of interpretation
02:06:28: So I can say why I think it's right, but it's not because I believe it that makes it right and even when i'm wrong
02:06:35: In what I believe the scripture is still right The theology is still right
02:06:41: It's just i'm misinterpreting something now he got I believe it was that he got his start or or whatever by debating.
02:06:51: Um Witnesses And then seven -day adventists, okay, because he's really setting himself up as a joe as a as a jehovah's witness a watchtower that says
02:07:02: My interpretation is the interpretation you must you must go by Yeah, and and that's you know, he talks a lot about cults, but that's exactly what cults do
02:07:12: Is one of the the markers of a cult And i'm not saying this because we're having this discussion
02:07:19: I mean, I know there was a group that claimed I I define a cult based on that group. Uh The definition
02:07:26: I have for cult has been it's in my book. It's right there. What do they believe it's been out for?
02:07:32: I don't know 10 years, uh the definition and i've had it on the on the website for 15 years now,
02:07:37: I guess um something like that, so It's definition it's been there that i've used that you have a person or organization
02:07:47: That sets themselves up as the authority to interpret scripture And then they twist the scriptures to make that Fit and they say anyone that doesn't agree with them is outside of the truth
02:07:59: That's exactly what he just did Uh, and then they say that you know, then they try to isolate people into little groups
02:08:06: And so the reality is is I think he's a I I he seems like he's a cult leader wannabe
02:08:13: Now the reason I say wannabe is I don't think he has followers like a cult leader needs followers, right?
02:08:20: um but he has all the markings of someone who wants to Wants to create twist the scriptures set himself up as the authority and You know, everyone should listen to him and he's the standard of truth what he believes
02:08:34: Uh brother andrew if I may add, um He apparently is taking advantage here in the philippines.
02:08:42: We barely have seminaries here um Sound seminaries.
02:08:48: So there are some pastors here. So we have to admit that has no uh seminary training
02:08:53: They just felt the calling and they went to the ministry and i'm talking pastor
02:08:59: So how about the layman a lot of lay people here that has no Theological background
02:09:05: And he takes advantage of these especially Of course, uh, our roman catholic friends here
02:09:12: There is no catholic apologist here. There is no catholic answer. There is nothing like that here
02:09:18: So he takes advantage of that and um He he you know, he tries to manipulate them by saying my
02:09:27: Arguments are right and it works for For catholics and adventists, but he tries to bump into reform theology apparently
02:09:36: I think I see the hatred this because he's lost uh some supporters and um
02:09:43: And something reform theology basically, uh knows what they're talking about They know the definition and the parameter and he does not have that.
02:09:51: So yeah How is the how is the uh, uh literacy rate in the philippines where you're at how many people can actually read
02:10:00: Oh, we're good. We're we're good english. Um, we're reading and writing. We're good.
02:10:05: It's just that the the seminary here is um, Very low in terms of training.
02:10:11: Yeah, I I asked that because I do work in southern india And one of the things that I know down there is that you got one guy
02:10:18: Who says he's called to be a pastor and then he starts pastoring He's not following good hermeneutics when he's reading the bible and you have a bunch of people in the church
02:10:26: Who can't a lot of them can't read and some of them? They just don't know what to believe and they're just listening to this guy and this is how these little cult -like groups start and how so many people in southern india get deceived just like You know where you were saying minus the reading part but so Good in the philippines, you know
02:10:46: Um, if you don't have a Seminary background people can we can read we can read a good reader but uh, if you don't have the seminary background, it's very easy to To hear twisted scriptures and then people would fall into that conclusion and all that Yeah So so here's here's what he's doing
02:11:08: Okay This is second peter two the false prophets Also arose among the people
02:11:16: Just as there will also be false teachers among you Who will secretly introduce destructive heresies even denying the master who brought them bringing swift destruction upon themselves?
02:11:28: And many will follow their sensuality And because of them the way of truth Will be maligned and in their greed they will exploit you with false words
02:11:41: Their judgment from long ago is not idle and their destruction is not asleep Okay now listen to this
02:11:48: For if god did not spare angels who sinned but cast them into the pit and delivered them from the chains of darkness
02:11:53: Being kept for judgment and did not spare the ancient world But preserved noah a preacher of righteousness with seven others when he brought the flood upon the world
02:12:02: Of the ungodly now i'm going to skip down To verse 10 listen to this daring self -willed
02:12:11: They do not tremble When they blaspheme glorious ones Whereas angels who are greater in strength and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the lord but these like unreasoning animals
02:12:27: Born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed Blaspheming where they have no knowledge
02:12:34: Will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed Suffering unrighteousness
02:12:40: As the wages of their unrighteousness considering it a pleasure to revel in the daytime.
02:12:45: They are stains and blemishes reveling in their Deceptions as they feast with you
02:12:52: Having eyes full of adultery and unceasing sin enticing Unstable souls having a heart trained in greed.
02:13:00: They are accursed Children forsaking the right way They have gone astray having following the way of balaam the son of beor who loved the wages of unrighteousness
02:13:12: But he received a rebuke for his own lawlessness for a mute donkey Speaking out with a voice of a man restrained the madness of the prophet
02:13:21: These are springs without water and mist driven by a storm For whom the black darkness has been kept
02:13:30: That is our Yeah, yeah it is Let's get to let's put these last two clips on Uh guys,
02:13:40: I have to go. I have to go. I gotta take my rest All right, thanks to meet you brother
02:13:49: So let's listen to this uh, and the Eschatology Really, uh, just like the thief on the cross, but you cannot be saved believing false gospel
02:13:59: Sir, John So that's my point I think that's clear Well, let me ask you this then
02:14:07: Why is it that someone rejecting your eschatology Would not be condemned
02:14:15: But someone who rejects your sociology would to me that seems
02:14:22: Problematic and inconsistent Okay, why it is because you can be saved without knowing eschatology
02:14:30: But you cannot be saved believing false gospel attacking the character of god And twisting the scriptures.
02:14:37: You cannot be saved. You can be saved even without uh knowing eschatology
02:14:43: That's very clear. I hope that's clear now next question. Hold on timeout timeout timeout
02:14:50: He He just mentioned the thief on the cross, right?
02:14:56: But then he says you can't be saved without knowing the true gospel
02:15:01: And and you you can't believe a false gospel that teaches wrongly about the nature of god.
02:15:07: Well The thief on the cross who says the thief on the cross had a perfect right understanding of just the nature of Of god and in the characteristics of god, but Even a a full proper understanding of just the gospel in itself.
02:15:24: All he did was believe on christ in that moment Yeah, and then he was saved Well, this is the other thing
02:15:31: I think is that Anyone who calls calvinism a false gospel? I mean, that's pretty harsh words right there like I would necessarily
02:15:40: He doesn't say it's a false gospel The debate is that calvinism is demonic and heretical
02:15:49: My friend, yeah, I mean he takes it even a step further but When I debated him the debate was that calvinism was useless and dangerous now it now it's demonic and heretical
02:16:03: Well, yeah, that's that's way out there but um the fact that he said that false gospel like I wouldn't go and say armenians
02:16:11: Have a false gospel. I would say they're in error You know, I would say their theology is an error
02:16:17: But i'm not going to necessarily say they're preaching a false gospel because I know plenty armenians that preach the gospel
02:16:22: I mean, that's where you really tell where he's at spiritually Yeah.
02:16:27: Oh, yeah Yes, and and so then they're going to get into john john 637 uh and and It's this is going to be interesting
02:16:39: You know how how fuentes interprets this in John chapter 6 verse 37
02:16:53: Uh, the text says all that the father gives me will come to me And the one who comes to me
02:17:00: I will never cast out What action comes first the father is giving or them coming which action comes first according to the text?
02:17:13: Okay before he answers chris i'm just gonna warn you you're gonna be triggered Okay. All right.
02:17:20: I'm just gonna warn you i'm ready. I never heard this interpretation before Let's listen
02:17:27: All right, according to the text the action comes first is the drawing of the father and that is
02:17:34: For specific people like the okay. So right now you're agreeing with them, right? Right, right.
02:17:40: Yes, i'll back this up just a little it sounds like he said something, right? Up until the end let's listen
02:17:48: Given to the son but does not include us gentiles because we are not drawn
02:17:54: I think I went too far the father will a believing false gospel attacking the car I just gotta back up so to make sure
02:18:01: I get this thing the scriptures you cannot be saved you can be saved even without uh
02:18:07: Knowing his cathology. That's very clear. I hope that's clear now next question
02:18:13: Sorry for jumping back and forth. It's just that I wish I had the videos to clip it would have been cleaner but Clicking on these makes it harder.
02:18:20: So here we are again, and I just can't wait to see chris's face You know what? We're just gonna do this.
02:18:25: We're gonna play. I know what you're gonna do. There we go Okay, chris, you're you're you're spotlighted. Let's go great in John chapter 6
02:18:36: Verse 37 Uh, the text says all that the father gives me will come to me
02:18:43: And the one who comes to me I will never cast out What action comes first the father is giving or them coming which action comes first according to the text
02:18:58: All right according to the text the action comes first is the drawing of the father and that is
02:19:05: For specific people like the apostles they were the one drawn by the father given to the son but does not include us gentiles because we are not drawn because the father will draw men or drawn men, but also the son will draw many will uh
02:19:24: Draw men to him all men to him in john 1232 It's not only the father the father is
02:19:31: Drawn the some men the apostles to the son, but the son will draw all men to himself
02:19:41: Okay True is taking his head off.
02:19:46: He's true. He's done. He's taking his headphones off. He's done. All right I told you
02:19:55: All right for the apostles I mean This is like the other verse that we dealt with Right there earlier.
02:20:03: It's the same behavior where he just goes. Oh, we're gonna limit it this way. Um Let's read read this passage.
02:20:12: Okay, this is i'll start in john 6 35 And he said to them
02:20:19: I I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me shall not hunger whoever believes in me shall not thirst
02:20:25: But I said to you That you have seen me and yet do not believe
02:20:32: All that the father gives me has come to me. Whoever comes to me He will not cast out for I have come down from heaven
02:20:41: Not to do the will Not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me And this is the will of him who sent me that I should lose nothing of what he's given me
02:20:52: But I will raise them up on the last day for this is the will of my father that everyone who looks
02:20:58: On the son and believes in him Shall have eternal life and I will raise him up in the last
02:21:06: Day, but only if you're an apostle, correct So only the apostles have eternal life.
02:21:13: That's the will of the father I mean, he's dressing the crowd. Jesus is dressing the crowd
02:21:19: I mean, that's the context. I don't even know It's like he went way backwards and then just inserted that into the passage.
02:21:27: That's what it looks like I mean if if you just know The book of john, okay
02:21:34: We can we can kind of make a straight line here from from chapter one to chapter six where we've got
02:21:41: Who jesus is and what jesus is going to do We get to john three where he's talking to nicodemus and he says, you know, um
02:21:51: Whoever believes on the sun will have eternal life which raises the question of okay
02:21:57: How does one believe to where you get to to chapter six and you say how does one believe god draws them?
02:22:05: And then he gives them to the sun and then the sun keeps them Yeah There's this whole line right here.
02:22:13: That's very very clear Well, they you know drew you brought this up at the very beginning of the show. John six, right?
02:22:19: I told you we were gonna get there because here it is so clear that what does he got to do? He's got to do what he says calvinists do
02:22:28: The apostles aren't in here Speaking to the crowd it actually says that in verse 22 on the next day the crowd remained.
02:22:37: Yep Yep, that's who he's speaking to not the apostles He's speaking to the whole crowd and the context is eternal life again
02:22:46: And and he's sitting there and well, you know again a facebook user says
02:22:52: What first mental gymnastics 512? That's where he found the book, you know, chris honhold said, uh,
02:22:59: I am totally screen grabbing those faces at it Yes, you should chris
02:23:05: Um, but this is what you end up seeing when the you know, john Again, this is a second knockout punch right because Looking at the text
02:23:17: All this had to agree with what comes first the father Drawing acted first.
02:23:24: Well, look at john 17. It doesn't just stop there You know jesus in his high priestly prayer.
02:23:29: I have manifested your name to the men who you gave me Okay, verse 7 now they have come to know that everything you have given me is from you um from and and like he just keeps going keeps going you go down to Verse 24.
02:23:43: I desire that they also whom you have given me Be with me where I am like that prayer specifically
02:23:53: Addresses the apostles and the elect. That's right. You you you can't golly, that is just Yeah, okay, we got one more clip so here we go with the the last clip for the evening
02:24:09: Uh for us we're not including in us In that text we're included in john 12 32 drawn by the sun when he will be lifted up also john 3 14 to 15
02:24:20: Next now on this next question. So we're there. What is he doing? He's he's trying to say. Oh, well, it's it's this scripture
02:24:26: Not that scripture Right, you know, this is going to be the argument but This next part if I have the clip, right?
02:24:35: Fuentes says something really amazing question Okay, but if you're saying that this is about the apostles
02:24:44: And then you said well verse 37 is about a general statement
02:24:50: Then how come you suddenly change when it comes to verse 36 through 39?
02:24:57: Where it includes things such as coming, uh in verse 37 All that the father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me.
02:25:05: I will never doubt If the father's giving comes first And that's the thing that makes us come
02:25:13: Then how can this just be about the apostles All right, uh the it's about all the apostle is the father drawing
02:25:25: Giving why because it is clear It is clear in john 12 32 that also jesus christ will draw all men
02:25:34: If only john 6 there is no john 12, then you are right but Did you hear that?
02:25:42: Did you hear that? if there was If there was no john 12, what do you have?
02:25:48: You have a guy that can't compare scripture with scripture He's admitting that that if you don't have john 12
02:25:56: Then john 6 is right then then the calvinist position is right He just admitted to john meyers that the calvinist that this verse is teaching the bright position
02:26:11: This is this for john was the same thing that I did in my debate where I got him to admit He was a calvinist without realizing it.
02:26:18: I mean, that's what john basically did but in saying that that Statement, he just made he also just set scripture against itself.
02:26:25: Exactly Doing that's what he's doing. He's he's basically saying This verse is in contradiction to this verse and i'm gonna look at this verse
02:26:36: And say you're wrong about that verse So what does he do when he comes to john 6 he's going to read in the apostles
02:26:42: In this I mean because john called him out on it Look, you're saying this is a general call to all people
02:26:47: But in these verses you're saying it's just the apostles Where was that change? and and his argument basically is well, there's this other passage that disagrees
02:26:56: I think with With what you're saying this passage means so this passage must be wrong.
02:27:01: Well, maybe his interpretation of john 12 is wrong Yeah, but what what he does when he's when he's doing that when he's setting scripture against itself
02:27:09: He now throws out every argument. He brings forth that says well, this is wrong because it's unbiblical.
02:27:15: Okay Well now how do you define what is biblical and what is unbiblical when you're when you're
02:27:20: Setting up this false dichotomy of scripture against itself and you're saying this but not this it's thomas jefferson theology
02:27:29: It's andy stanley theology, right? Hey All right, let me get to some comments we had up here, uh, there we go chris honhold says goes back to fuentes is
02:27:41: Goes back to fuentes is the authority His predetermined view of what what is true determines what the text can't be saying despite what it actually does say
02:27:52: Uh, chris honholds also says that meyers proves his biblical knowledge and submission to the word makes him a far
02:28:00: Superior debater. I agree. I don't know how how old john is. I mean easy.
02:28:06: He's pretty young I think he sounds like a kid just Kind of looking at him He was 20
02:28:14: Either in the debate or when I talked to him, you know kudos to him For yeah for knowing scripture as well as he does and being able to point out those things
02:28:22: Not just to know the scripture but to understand what it was fuentes was doing with the scripture and saying and and Knowing the implications of it chris honhold says he jumped to another passage entirely to quote unquote prove
02:28:38: His presupposition and that's what you see people do all the time so, um, you know,
02:28:45: I think jody jody, uh said Uh, I don't think I could take another night with this guy.
02:28:50: That is why we're gonna fit in jody. I agree You don't have to to this was jody
02:28:56: If you really want to give yourself a migraine as chris honhold says, uh, just go watch that debate I had with him uh
02:29:02: You know because he he wasn't allowed to pull the stunts he did with with john and uh, john handled himself very well
02:29:10: Uh, especially for his first debate uh, he he crushed it in every way not just because he was on the right side of the debate, but He he did what his job was in a debate improving his point
02:29:22: Supporting it with claims and and even when fuentes wouldn't answer questions. He pointed it out and so You know, that's that's the thing chris honnold says yes, please andrew never ever play.
02:29:37: Mr Fuentes again, please Yeah, well, I you know, I didn't really want to chris it's just I I knew that this guy was trying to make a name for himself i'm hoping that maybe in between classes pastor justin and Pastor josiah can write some more articles about this one and we'll have even more articles uh that can to expose him, uh, but With that we'll move on to before we move to the next topic which we're going to give to alex since he had a question
02:30:06: Although his wife just gave him a look like what are you still doing on my wife's giving me some water. I'm thirsty water
02:30:14: I thought you were getting a look. No, no, no. Well what asking her for water, I guess
02:30:21: Now now would probably be a good time because at this time Everybody is pretty frustrated.
02:30:28: I know chris honholds is and he needs his pillow He needs to get his pillow and put his head on his pillow so he can get a restful night of sleep
02:30:37: So chris go to mypillow .com or call 1 -800 -873 -0176
02:30:44: That's 800 -873 -0176 Get yourself a good pillow
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02:31:06: That allows us to continue doing what we do at striving for eternity. We would love for you to help us donating monthly
02:31:14: As we know that we are now officially officially in a recession Nobody told joe biden that because he he denies it
02:31:23: Joe, biden and ari fuentes have a lot in common when when the truth
02:31:29: Doesn't say what I want it to say. We'll just redefine the truth All right.
02:31:35: I mean you guys know that gas is down 65 cents, right? Yeah, we're saving all that money three dollars.
02:31:42: Yeah. Yeah And and with that with that 65 cents I can go get myself a 65 thousand dollar car
02:31:48: That's runs on electric that by the way will cost me, you know triple my electric bill
02:31:55: You're you're muted chris 25 it won't just triple it will it will you will pay 25 times what you're paying now.
02:32:05: Yeah in electricity um For a car that that you won't be able to actually drive as far on either
02:32:11: So then you end up with the problem that you saw in texas Yeah, um repeat the line it will it will kill the the power grid.
02:32:19: Oh, yeah. Yeah And so there was a senator that actually senator massey was that who basically did the did the math and showed that like running?
02:32:28: You know one hour of charging your car is equal to to a full day of running your air conditioner or something like that so Yeah.
02:32:35: Yeah. I mean that's We we got our house set at 76 To try to keep the bills down Right.
02:32:42: So if if you want to help, you know with the recession, here's the here's the reality folks I i'm just going to tell you reality of the way, you know, alex.
02:32:50: I know you run a a a ministry as well This is what ends up happening in during recession times
02:32:55: People tend to pull their support from smaller ministries and give it to larger ministries figuring that the larger ministries
02:33:02: Will survive the recession and and they could do more and so the smaller ministries end up getting hurt or closing
02:33:09: So what we we we're already seeing this in different ministries smaller ministries are losing support
02:33:14: The bigger ministries are starting to gain support even during a recession That's what ends up happening.
02:33:19: It's the smaller ministries that need your support to keep going through times like this now Striving fraternity is a ministry that's not going to be as affected in some sense.
02:33:29: What do I mean? About 70 to 80 percent of the money that's that's raised goes toward the ministry.
02:33:37: It doesn't go toward salaries It doesn't go toward overhead it goes toward ministry
02:33:43: We've designed that I don't get a large. I do get some as it's a small amount, but it's not going to pay
02:33:50: It doesn't even pay my my mortgage Okay, it doesn't even cover that So the reality is
02:33:59: That we've designed it that way Specifically so that we can be doing ministry
02:34:06: But I will tell you that part of what we do is go to churches that really don't have the money to put on Events and we go and help them out but The the price to get out there has tripled
02:34:20: Flights have tripled hotels have doubled and so we we could really use your support to be able to help these the churches
02:34:28: So if you go to strivingfraternity .org Support we'd greatly appreciate if you could give monthly that helps us because we do have some monthly expenses.
02:34:37: So with that Alex you had a question and then we got cole in the background Yeah, so my question was actually the reason
02:34:45: I ended up on the show tonight. Um, I was talking to a friend I've known him for about six or seven years and we were discussing some things and I kind of was pressing in him on some of the things he was saying and one it came up that Times square church where he goes to in new york with pastor wilkerson founded it then carter conlan now
02:35:06: There's a new pastor. Well, there's women pastors there. I didn't even know that Um, so I found that out.
02:35:12: That was disappointing, you know, I had liked some of wilkerson's stuff in the past and even carter conlan But so I pressed him on this and he started getting, you know defensive getting upset not really hostile, but um
02:35:27: Just getting frustrated and we kind of went back and forth with this So I was wondering like maybe some of your guys's advice is how to deal with this
02:35:36: Subject going forward all I sent was I sent him a few articles But I was like I kept saying this is what the scripture says and just going back to the text
02:35:44: But he kept saying well, what about this interpretation or what about this and how you know? He was kind of all over the place with that.
02:35:51: So it was just kind of frustrating for me So well, one of the things that's going to be frustrating is the fact that you're trying to argue based on truth
02:36:00: And he's trying to argue based on emotions okay and so That's going to be a major thing that you gotta you just got to deal with is ask him.
02:36:11: Are you interested in truth? You know that that is the real question um and i'm gonna i'm gonna give you a uh, i'll find
02:36:25: I did a um podcast that Covers this in quite a bit of detail on the my rap report podcast
02:36:34: Okay, and I go through all you know, almost all of the arguments that people try to argue i'm going to put it in the in the
02:36:47: Well, yeah what before you know, I was saying too is I sent him the uh carm .org article about women pastors and I sent him
02:36:55: About how you know within like two or three decades once you adapt women pastors you start adapting homosexuality
02:37:01: You start adapting these other things transgenderism and then he was throwing it out. You know, he's like I don't
02:37:07: You know, he didn't really want to hear that. Well, no, but but he doesn't But the thing is that he's dealing with an emotional argument, right?
02:37:15: That's that's what he's dealing with and so the link that I gave you what that does it's if you just go to Go to the christianpodcastcommunity .org
02:37:24: And just do a search on does god allow women to be a pastor? And you'll you'll you'll find it but The the whole issue with that episode what
02:37:35: I did was I walked through all the arguments that people make um
02:37:41: For women being allowed to preach they go through and you know, we'll look at deborah and judges
02:37:47: Right. Okay. Let's look at deborah and judges deborah herself says
02:37:53: That the fact that barack Wants her there Is a judgment on him
02:38:00: She says that She's saying that god is judging him and the judgment's going to be that he's not going to kill the enemy a woman is
02:38:09: Yeah, that that's a disgrace to him and he was willing to take that disgrace
02:38:14: So they they look at deborah and it's like that's sorry, but she disagrees with your position
02:38:21: You know and I look through each one of the ones that they make and show how it's it's not You're kind of like with fuentes but like fuentes they don't care about the truth
02:38:31: They care about the narrative This is the reality narrative matters the truth doesn't matter theology doesn't matter narrative matters well, andrew makes a great point about It being an emotional argument.
02:38:45: So a question I would ask this guy is okay Who do you know? That's a woman pastor and what is she in relation to you?
02:38:53: and how close are you with her because a lot of times people end up adopting the idea of women pastors because They know some woman pastor and they know oh, well, you know this i've known this person for this long
02:39:04: And they're this kind of person and they have this kind of heart and they're you know So I don't understand why god wouldn't want them to be in a position of leadership in the church, you know, so i've seen this in You know, even in kind of celebrity preacher culture, right?
02:39:18: There's you know duck dynasty, even though they're they're church of christ and they believe, you know some wrong things sadie robertson
02:39:27: Started preaching. Yep. She started preaching here in atlanta at Passion city with louis giglio and all that and then to where her uncle jace
02:39:37: Actually said on their podcast. I used to have specific beliefs about women preaching but now that sadie's doing it my
02:39:46: My view has oh, I got you. Yeah. No, that's convenient. Yeah, alex Yeah, man, look
02:39:52: I would say just man stick to the truth stick stick to what scripture teaches Um open open the scriptures together.
02:39:59: Let's look at this together. Let's let's let's examine these together. Let's let's unpack these together um and uh, and and and stand your ground and and just like these guys have said
02:40:10: I mean because it's based upon an Emotional argument because it's based upon well We've always done it this way or this is where the times are going or this is the progressive thought um it's contradictory to what the scriptures teach and and you are
02:40:24: You are you are now standing against god and saying no, I know better than what the scriptures teach um
02:40:30: Try to try to keep emotion out of it the best you can and but but stick to your guns, man I mean if if your christianity is progressing then it's not christian.
02:40:38: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah That's true. Yeah It has needed to progress for 2 000 years, but now it should right?
02:40:46: Yeah, and now he's been in there for like almost 10 years I think at this point eight or nine years and even today when i'm bringing up the scriptures, you know, he's
02:40:56: You know saying oh the interpretation or you know, he's cutting me off. He's interrupting So at what point you know, and i've had some encounters with people like this recently like at what point do you?
02:41:07: Kind of have to move on and be like, you know, maybe this isn't the best Person well, it sounds like to him.
02:41:13: The scriptures are subjective rather than objective Yeah, and there's this kind of relative aspect that says well
02:41:20: That's how you interpret it. That's not how I interpret it. So let's just you know Let's just hold to our own interpretation and and whatever but at that point then you have no standard or foundation of truth
02:41:33: By which to measure anything so so you have to say hey look Are are the scriptures subjective or objective because if they're subjective then truth doesn't exist
02:41:43: Then it can mean whatever you want if it's objective then that means there is a a hermeneutical standard
02:41:49: And god means what god says in his word and we need to take that seriously.
02:41:54: We need to look at that um now I do believe that at some point someone's just going to keep pushing against it and pushing again
02:42:01: Not wanting to hear it and you know once you've probably you know exhausted, you know all your grace because at some point it's going to push against your grace and you're gonna you're
02:42:12: To prevent you from getting frustrated and just wanting to lash out irrationally You know, it does become a point to just to just walk away say, okay, you know
02:42:21: I'm gonna pray for you, you know, if you have any questions, I would love to talk to you later or whatever But at this point we kind of need to part ways on this well, and and to add to that is that my concern is i've known him for a while and This is the first time i've really had kind of a pushback conversation with him
02:42:38: Where i've kind of challenged some of his things because i've seen some concerning trends over the last couple years
02:42:44: And he just kept you know coming at him with me and then I said, well, I have the holy spirit
02:42:49: He would say that I have the holy spirit. I said well, but the scripture go to scripture first, right? You know scripture alone and he didn't he he's like you say that a lot like he got kind of aggravated
02:42:59: He's like you've been saying that a lot like i'm like well That's our sole authority like we go to that first, you know
02:43:05: And the holy spirit's not going to do or do anything or lead anyone in any way shape or form that contradicts the scriptures
02:43:11: That's right. Yeah, and he said so when do you when do you do that? Well scripture gives us some answers, right?
02:43:17: Avoid a divisive person after the second or third confrontation Right. So so, you know paul says to timothy avoid an
02:43:28: Irreverent babbler and contradictor of what is uh of what is false of Call it falsely called knowledge.
02:43:36: He says he says timothy Avoid irreverent babbler. This is first timothy 216 now
02:43:43: Our second timothy 216 for it will lead people into more ungodliness all right, so so In titus he says to avoid quarreling
02:43:54: Be gentle, right? So if you have someone that's just looking to quarrel and argue you avoid them uh
02:44:00: So and then in titus 3 9 he says avoid foolish controversies genealogies
02:44:06: You know quarrels over the law So we end up seeing what what he tells us is you you give it give it a couple times
02:44:13: But after a while you just you gotta let it drop. Yeah And so they do with what you guys were saying melissa lex of a thoroughly equipped podcast.
02:44:22: Uh Says that wasn't the one that I wanted Where was it? Oh, here it is because you guys are talking about sadie.
02:44:28: She said Sadie butchers the scripture. Well, she does she would have to to be a woman teacher.
02:44:34: Yeah Her husband's gonna make a good pastor's wife. Yeah, jody Is there a way to do automatic payments to support y 'all?
02:44:42: Yes, there is go to go to uh, All you have to do is go to the website striving for turning .org
02:44:48: slash support And you can support us monthly Uh now if you want there's a couple ways you could do it.
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02:45:06: Uh, with that so What are you smiling at chris? Uh what drew said? What I didn't hear it then that uh, the sadie's husband's gonna make a good pastor's wife.
02:45:15: Oh Me All right Alex, thank you.
02:45:22: Let me bring cole in The last guest for the evening. Good evening Good evening cole and anthony is uh absent for his time slot.
02:45:31: I see yes, we know so um, thanks for that question alex because that answered a little bit of the issue i've been going with Uh buddy of mine off and on we talk about these things, but he brought up this we were talking about uh, the logic of you know, how regeneration and faith are so closely together, but it's almost simultaneous there and I was trying to explain to him using the uh
02:45:55: The moment where jesus resurrects lazarus and he comes in he says hey remove the stone
02:46:01: They're like no he's it's like been what four days. He's already decaying like he's do it Anyway, and he calls out to him and he comes out
02:46:08: I asked him I said Can a dead man? Hear the words to be called out of that tomb and he's like but He's jesus.
02:46:19: He's god. So it he can just when he calls him out. He's he's alive But I was like, but think of it this way
02:46:26: How is it that us being dead in sin? can respond and he would
02:46:31: So we were going into this thing and he called it like a he tried to get away from the logic there
02:46:37: Of it and call it a schrodinger's tomb And but the absurdity there was that it's schrodinger's cat.
02:46:45: It was a mind. It was a it was a thing where He was trying to make uh an illustration of how absurd it is to Assume that the cat is we don't know whether the cat is alive or dead if you seal it in a box.
02:46:57: It's like duh It's a living thing, right? It's like we we were explained from scripture what was happening in that tomb
02:47:03: There was a dead guy and a living man called out to him and then a living guy walked out So somewhere a rotting corpse had to become a living person again in order to hear the word to call it come out
02:47:14: Right. So this is regeneration and He would this was the kind of argument and he started going in these circular things
02:47:24: With like you guys have been talking about all night. I'm gonna have to go back and listen to the original bit of it but yeah, the this is these are things where Like he'll bring up like romans where you know, how do you because we were talking about, you know, how do they
02:47:40: Faith comes by hearing and so this is what romans 10 And so he takes that one little
02:47:48: Scrape of the scripture off, but then if you keep reading it Paul starts quoting
02:47:53: Psalm 19 because he says but I ask have they not heard? Right because their voice goes out to all the earth.
02:48:00: We're without excuse, you know, because the creation bears witness and all these things and it's it's frustrating to to uh to be run from that and then like Fuentes was doing he'll jump to a whole other scripture and every clip that you played was exact Play for play what i've been going through with my friend
02:48:22: Where one thing will come up and he jumps Yeah, because you guys have kind of routed my questions all night.
02:48:28: I've just been sitting here sipping on uh, burritos and So let me let me ask you a couple first off and I know
02:48:35: You know drew referenced this earlier, but I think that the using the argument of lazarus is a horrible argument
02:48:43: And i'll tell you why I'll be corrected. That's cool. Yeah The reason is it's what we're doing is the same thing that people do when they say, you know
02:48:52: They use david and goliath for their problems okay David and goliath were not there to represent our our struggles in life and we're david and our struggles are goliath
02:49:05: Correct to you know And what a lot of people do is they use the situation with lazarus as if it was trying to prove something the of salvation
02:49:15: That wasn't why that happened now Is it true? That like a dead person as an illustration
02:49:22: Uh, that's why I prefer the the illustration of people want to use the hey, you're throwing a life preserver to a guy in the water
02:49:30: Then let's use it accurately. The guy's doing a dead man float and can't grab the the rope Life preserver doesn't matter or realistically.
02:49:37: He's at the bottom of the sea And the only way you're getting them up is to dive down into it.
02:49:43: Now. The only reason for doing that so that people don't Misapply the passage dealing with lazarus.
02:49:50: Okay, so so that's one thing minor thing but Let me ask you this question because you said they're almost simultaneous
02:49:58: So i'm going to ask you a question cole, I want you to think through i'm going to ask you two questions I want you to think about this
02:50:04: They're simple yes or no. So Can you have A regenerate
02:50:13: Unbeliever a regenerate
02:50:19: Unbeliever, can you have a person that's a regenerate unbeliever? Okay.
02:50:25: No No, a regenerated unbeliever. No, no, I don't have can you have an unregenerate believer?
02:50:36: No Okay, because they're mutually exclusive. They they can't coexist. It's a non -contradiction, right?
02:50:44: So it must be simultaneous So the only way you can have it is that they have to be
02:50:52: A regenerate believer. So so now let me let me walk through How I try to explain the issue of calvin's norminiasm,
02:51:01: I tried to do this with mr Fuentes I tried he just it wasn't listening because he had no care to listen.
02:51:08: He wants a monologue He does debates for monologues. Okay, and by the way, I should read this john.
02:51:14: John myers was was listening to the show. He said, um He says here the end of my cross uh end of my cross examination
02:51:23: Affirms a form of irresistible grace with Reference to the apostles.
02:51:28: I thought that was interesting and and we heard part of that um, and so yeah, he he was
02:51:35: So that was a very interesting part of of the discussion. So here's how I I try to explain this and so let's take a step back cole
02:51:43: Get to an area that we don't have the disagreements on Um, and I tried to do this with mr
02:51:50: Fuentes, but who wrote the book of romans? Paul really
02:51:58: Under the uh inspiration of the holy spirit. So who who wrote the book of romans? God god, so Does paul write differently than peter?
02:52:09: Yes John, yes moses I mean he chose his own words, didn't he?
02:52:15: I'd say so we see that even when he'll say hey titus bring my cloak. It's gonna be cold in the winter
02:52:21: So you you have individuals Who are writing scripture?
02:52:28: And what they're doing is in that they're choosing their own words And yet we call it god's word
02:52:35: Yeah, it's it's no it's no different than when god calls up us when he's trying to deal with um, one of the kings in the old testament
02:52:44: He says it's time to do away with him who will deal with this and some lying spirits come up he Has interactions with his creation he says hey,
02:52:52: I need you to do this thing come do this thing Well, but it's more so it's more so and this is a doctrine when we look at the doctrine of inspiration
02:52:59: Which is how we get the scriptures We look at this and say well, it's not the dictation god didn't dictate two men
02:53:07: Because they wrote their own you see their personality coming out We it's not that the men themselves are inspired because we know paul wrote at least one and I believe two other letters
02:53:20: To the current church in corinth that are not inspired So it's not the men that are doing it.
02:53:26: So this is a doctrine we refer to as super intending So what the doctrine superintending is that god works through the human author?
02:53:35: Such that the choices that he makes to write the choices in the words Are exactly as god intended them to be such that god gets a hundred percent of the credit
02:53:46: Mm -hmm So paul is writing romans and every letter is exactly as god intended it to be
02:53:54: Such that god gets the credit not paul Now we see that doctrine of superintending in inspiration.
02:54:01: Let's go to another Now that you're a believer Do you do good works?
02:54:07: as a believer You you should be I mean, yeah If you're
02:54:14: If well, then would it be Say again, what does james say james says it's god who does the good work?
02:54:23: Yeah, right true. That's true. We see the same exact doctrine now applied here God works through us as believers so that the choices we make to do good works
02:54:34: Are exactly as god intended them to be such that he gets all the credit you and I when we do good works
02:54:41: As a believer we can't take credit for it Yeah Something in us we wouldn't do good works
02:54:52: You see that I heard it said once the Christian life is the only life you live where you take a hundred percent of the credit for all your failures and zero percent
02:55:01: Of the credit for all of your success. Yeah So that makes sense So now all we're doing is taking this doctrine of superintending that we apply to inspiration
02:55:09: Apply to sanctification I apply it to regeneration And it solves the dilemma of the debates that so many have this is the thing that had ari fuentes
02:55:20: Listened to what I said with this He wouldn't have the problem with john chapter 6 and john chapter 12
02:55:28: That's the thing Did I choose god? Experientially, I chose god because that's what
02:55:35: I experienced right? I experienced me choosing god But theologically god chose me
02:55:42: Because I couldn't have chosen god Without him superintending that choice
02:55:48: Working through me that the very choice I make is exactly as he intended it to be
02:55:53: Such that he gets a hundred percent of the credit. Okay, so here's the question and this is a thing That's been swirling around in my head and i've been wondering going back and forth on with her whether it's accurate or not the um
02:56:07: Because the issue that's brought up by opponents of these of the doctrine is that this violates um man's free will but Does this so does this?
02:56:22: superintending of things Not does it also then so then it's it's god's intent that now we as the elect
02:56:32: Choose him, but it's his making it so that way we choose him. It's like it's both things at the same time without Violating the free will well, you're first you're assuming free will thank you
02:56:46: We have a free Will that's enslaved to sin prior to christ right
02:56:53: So it's a will it's not free free the idea free Is that there's no it doesn't have the influence or the the enforcement of something but we're enslaved to sin as an unbeliever
02:57:05: So our will's not free So we can make choices, but the choice
02:57:10: Okay, well then let me rephrase it because i'm not in those weeds I'm using the term free will in a colloquial sense, right?
02:57:17: We all have a sense of will that we are autonomous in some fashion. Let's use it as will okay word free
02:57:23: Okay, fair enough So drop the word free off of it Does that still work as far as god's able to superintend that?
02:57:34: our path from birth to belief Or death or whatever that is
02:57:42: While also not violating our will as we understand it kind of like how you know, there's
02:57:49: Because this is another thing he brought up on this on this topic and may i'll throw it in there and then i'll let you have it is um the issue, uh, i don't know the issue, but when uh, mary conceives jesus he brought it up in this context of like This he wasn't saying that there was an issue of rape happening here but he brings it up in that context of god when he
02:58:13: Does the regenerative process and if it's not and if it's violating our will of some kind you catch what i'm saying
02:58:20: There's that emotional garbage in there. Well, and that's that to you. Yeah, that's as if it's our will greater than god's will
02:58:28: And and that look What in alex's face he's trying to understand what i'm actually saying
02:58:35: Sorry, buddy, like i'm just trying to throw out there because sometimes you just don't know what to do with comments like that Like yeah, the the issue is is that?
02:58:43: We we view things from our perspective Because that's all we know We can't fully understand the mind of god and we we can try but The problem is most people they want to interpret god from our vantage point
02:58:59: So they look at what we understand and say well, this is how god does things But wait what right?
02:59:05: God is wholly other than us And so we have to try to understand from his perspective
02:59:13: And so when when someone says like they they talk about the the our will our
02:59:18: You know us having the god not interfering with our will like, excuse me Um god's the one in control he holds every atom in the universe
02:59:31: In control I mean he holds this universe together colossians one
02:59:38: Well, yeah, andrew. Can I jump in here? You just did Okay, so, you know
02:59:43: I think back to when I was lost, you know I was on drugs and a poker player and a gambler and all this stuff.
02:59:50: That's all I wanted to do But until god saved me, you know, that's when he did whatever he pleased
02:59:56: He changed my heart and then used me for his kingdom to advance the gospel
03:00:01: He didn't have to I praised the lord for his mercy on my life because I should have been dead But that was up to him.
03:00:08: I mean I had no choice in the matter It was his power that you know that decided to regenerate me and save me
03:00:15: So so when we look at the scriptures the scriptures are clear that no one chooses god.
03:00:21: No one seeks after god now every person has a Will in the sense that we do make real choices and we make real decisions
03:00:29: But our choices and our decisions that we make are limited by our nature so apart from christ
03:00:36: I choose things according to a nature that is uh an enemy of god now
03:00:42: I have to if i'm going to choose the things of god My nature has to be changed.
03:00:49: Therefore. I have to be regenerated, but that's not something that I can do on my own Right. So let's spurgeon use use this as an example
03:00:57: We'll use it here if you were to take a tiger and you put a tiger in a cage and on one side you put meat and on the other side you put vegetables
03:01:07: Because of that tiger's nature It's always going to go to the meat same thing if you replace the tiger with a rabbit
03:01:14: It's always going to go to the vegetables in order for them to choose the other thing their nature has to be
03:01:21: Changed so they have to become something other than what they were so if you take man and you put man in a room and you have the things of the world hatred of god sin on one side and you put
03:01:34: Holiness and the things of god on one side you put unregenerate man in there. He's always going to choose
03:01:40: Sin, that's a trick. It's only the regenerate man The one that has been regenerated by god that actually desires the holy thing correct, so my nature fundamentally and Necessarily has to be changed in order to choose the things of god
03:01:59: But it's god who changes me and then it's god who draws me Because once he changes me,
03:02:05: I can't help but desire those things of god Yeah, and and you said he gives us a changed nature by by the indwelling of the holy spirit
03:02:13: We know as believers. We have a free will Because now in drew's example, we can choose the world or the desire of god
03:02:24: That's right. We now have that choice because we have the holy spirit indwelling us. That's when we have a free will
03:02:30: Well, yeah, I mean to use myself again as an example is like before, you know, I just wanted to serve myself
03:02:37: I wanted to do everything I wanted to do. I was selfish I was you know, just wanted to do all those things and then after that after I prayed
03:02:47: I repented, you know God answered the prayers, you know, he gave me a new heart.
03:02:52: He changed my desire He he gave the holy spirit dwelled in me I woke up.
03:02:58: It was like I woke up out of a coma and I start looking around and i'm like wow I'm, totally different, you know, and it was an overnight experience
03:03:05: And I after that I wanted to just serve him. I wanted to preach the gospel in different countries
03:03:10: I wanted to serve I wanted to help I mean because that that's truly what god made for me, you know before that I was
03:03:17: It was my sin nature. I was dead in sin, but man, that wasn't the plan he had for my life Yeah, yeah i i'm thankful that the lord saved me and he did it without my permission
03:03:28: Yeah Amen because we wouldn't be saved any other way then and this is the thing
03:03:34: That fuentes agreed to in my debate with him I mean he agreed it's god does 100 of the saving.
03:03:43: Okay, that's calvinism Yeah Our choice didn't save us god's choice did Chris were you gonna say something?
03:03:53: Okay, no, I I mean just I mean stuff that I hadn't already said I mean it's just you know we don't we don't
03:03:58: I go back to romans 9 and we read it earlier, you know, we as the As the clay can't look at our can't look at the potter and say you can't do this um
03:04:09: And then when he does regenerate and save us we we want to choose him Our desire becomes him um, and when we become partakers of the divine nature, um
03:04:22: That that's how that happens. That's how it has to happen is regeneration. So yep I got a jet fellows.
03:04:27: Yep. Well, that's that I was gonna actually call it a night if that's that answers cole's question We went a little bit over an hour over into anthony time but uh
03:04:38: Uh next week, uh, we may do just again another open q a I'm, not sure which of the guys are going to be able to join but I know that I know anthony won't be able to I know justin
03:04:50: Pierce won't be able to uh, justin peters right now folks. He is in finland
03:04:55: He is doing a conference in finland. So he should be back by the 4th And for the 11th and the 18th, uh the 11th
03:05:04: I will be at kootenai community church with pastor jim osmond, so i'm sure that jim
03:05:11: I can i'll talk him into Coming on and i'm sure we'll have some great discussion.
03:05:16: Maybe Maybe drew can join and we can have round two because Jim has concluded
03:05:25: Uh, i'm just saying drew He's he's been studying a little bit more and and he now thinks that he can make even a stronger argument than before For pre -millennialism, so I haven't been studying um
03:05:38: But I mean i'm not opposed to asking questions. Yeah, so so maybe we'll do that on the 11th on the 18th
03:05:46: I I fear Mentioning this anthony is going to have a guest I I fear mentioning what the topic is because if I say this topic
03:05:55: No one's going to want to it's just i'm just telling you no one's going to want to show up Dentistry in the gospel.
03:06:02: No worse than that Whatever the subject matter is it'll definitely be pulling teeth.
03:06:09: It is it is a subject that Unfortunately christians is a subject that christians need the most help in And avoid the most
03:06:18: He's going to be talking about prayer Nice I mean you go have a conference about the word of god.
03:06:25: Everyone shows up have a conference on prayer No one's making it. I might join him for that man.
03:06:31: I love him on prayer right here Yeah, david mcintyre the hidden life of prayer.
03:06:37: I was just about to grab that book, but you just just about to grab that one Yeah And uh, lastly on the 25th, uh, there may be no show we're going to see whether unless uh,
03:06:49: Justin pierce, uh, both Dr. Svestro and myself will be flying out to la We'll be there to um to be helping living orders and their living orders academy
03:06:59: Or their i'm sorry ambassadors academy And so we will have to miss that week. So we'll see if someone else can join
03:07:06: So with that folks, I hope this has been helpful. I hope that well uh, chris honhold says
03:07:12: Uh, that would be a good show. I'm sure Uh chris i'm sure that that would be better than the headache that we gave you
03:07:19: Tonight. Hey, isn't chris a a podcast host? So why couldn't he just host for you?
03:07:24: Why doesn't he why doesn't he join? I'm wondering the same thing. I was gonna say that earlier like he was kind that he should just join us here
03:07:31: You know, he does say we've been on the show all night. So yeah, he says Andrew july is almost over and I still gotta send him an elf a christmas in july elf gift
03:07:40: Are you trying to trigger him? That's it I you know, I heard the youtube door slam
03:07:47: That's it you just you just ended the show that way
03:07:52: I cannot believe it Chris he really loves you