Why Calvinism: Dr. James White, Andrew Rappaport, & Jeremiah Nortier DMW#209

Sounds good. Here we go exploring theology doctrine and all of the fascinating subjects in between. Broadcasting from an undisclosed location. Dead men walking starts. What's up, everyone, welcome back to another episode of dead men walking podcast.

I'm your host Greg Moore. You can find me at dmw podcast .com. We're coming live from the why Calvinism conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee and just met a gentleman That I didn't know personally. We were in a group chat for a few weeks before that.

Jeremiah Nortier on Full Preterism and Presuppositional Apologetics

Opened up the pre-conference yesterday on the on the dangers of full preterism. Is Jeremiah Nortier. I'm saying that correctly. Yes, sir.

Welcome to the podcast. Yeah, Greg. Thanks for having me on in our Facebook group chats. There was just so many memes so many gifts and jokes. I would just kind of scroll through and I'm like, oh my goodness.

There's a lot going on there. Yeah, so.

It is funny because I owe my joke is I'll meet people that I've you know. Kind of communicated with on Facebook or Instagram and go, you know, you're a lot bigger in person. It's just that little icon in the corner.

It's it's hard to you know, get to know people but. Tell us a little bit about yourself real quick. I know we're not gonna stick around here too long. But I want you to touch on full preterism because it's what you talked about last night.

It was absolutely unbelievable. I know you have a YouTube channel. Yeah. Remind me the the apologetic dog. The apologetic dog one of the coolest logos in the game that the.

We gotta have a dog with a beard, but what dog is going to fit that beard?

So what the pitbull. It was a pitbull and You know kind of goes hand in hand with kind of defending of the faith and theology and discernment, right?

Yeah, and that logo you'll see first Timothy 620, which is an incredible verse where Paul says Oh Timothy guard the deposit entrusted to you. So the apologetic dog is really all Christians guarding the gospel of grace and then we see the offensive nature he says Timothy avoid irreverent babble by a avoiding pagan philosophy irreverent babble and Contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.

It's on the way we get knowledge. I'm a student of Greg Bonson and Cornelius van Til and we stand on the Word of God Presuppositionally, so that's the only place you get truth and knowledge. And so that's how we contend for the truth of God and how we guard the gospel of grace.

I'm rereading.

Against all opposition. Okay. Yeah, just going back through it and just remembering. Wow Gosh, I love Greg Bonson in that school of like you better be informed. You better understand, you know when you're talking to a Muslim or a Mormon or a Jehovah Witness like.

Be learned about those things because they know they know what you believe and be ready to defend the faith.

So.

Awesome. I love you. Mentioning those two names and we're on the same page here, but for the listeners we wanted to make this kind of a shorter little snippet and I know we're not gonna be able to cover everything in that amount of time but Give us a definition of preterism for those listening that might not know.

Yes. So preterism just on its face is praetor Latin for past Past fulfillment and so preterism on its own is not a bad term. If you're a Christian you believe some prophecies are in the past like the virgin birth the incarnation happened in our past but where Full preterism comes in and says all biblical prophecies have been fulfilled in the past leading up to 70 AD.

Partial Preterism, Full Preterism, and the Olivet Discourse

Yeah, and we're talking about eschatology here the end the end of things the end time. So if you're listening to that and you haven't heard that term. That's what he's talking about. So we have you have a couple things within there.

You have like a partial preterism view. You have a full preterism view. What's it. What's a partial preterism view?

Yeah.

And then maybe tell us the full preterism view and why. Maybe one Might be harmful and one might not or are they both not great to hold to. What are your thoughts on that?

Absolutely partial preterism firms like The book of Revelation and all of it discourse that a large majority. You heard. Dr Frost speak last night the 95 that 95 of the scriptures have been fulfilled maybe leading up to 70 AD.

Okay, and so like the destruction of the temple is meaningful for what Jesus was prophesying to occur but if we could say the 5 that is in our future our Wonderful blessed. Hope is the future bodily return of Jesus Christ the resurrection of the dead and the restoration of all things.

Okay, that's still not yet. That's future.

But a partial might say hey look at what what Jesus was talking about in parts of Matthew 24. That was the temple and that's been fulfilled right? Okay, that necessarily influences how you interpret the book of Revelation.

Okay, or vice versa, right? That's partial orthodox healthy and good and we can continue the conversation. Right full preterist says all of the all of it discourse is talking about one unit and that was in the past.

Dispensationalist might look at that as one unit and just put it all in the future. So it's a similar hermeneutic going on.

Okay, and the partial prayer. I'm sorry. The full preterism is where we can really get into some heresy and some weird stuff, right? I mean because we're essentially saying I mean you touched on it last night maybe you can give us those three points if you remember them or three or four points of.

It's it's all been fulfilled. There's there's no resurrection of the dead. There's no bodily return of Christ. These are the things that a full preterist believe or they have to believe right?

Yeah of the mixed bag of full and we say hyper preterism because it redefines Christianity. Yeah, they all unify on these three points. So they believe That the that Jesus return already happened the resurrection of the dead already happened.

They believe everything already happened, but the restoration of all things that's everything that we unify for our blessed Oh our blessed hope and they look at that as no we're going to Redefine that until Jesus's second coming was Spiritual it was covenantal it happened at the destruction of the temple and You heard me touch on 1st Corinthians 15 Paul.

Paul makes a strong argument. No, Jesus is Resurrection and ascension and necessarily his pericy his return. It's all bodily. Yeah, that makes sense. So and Paul says he's the first fruit. So if we ask what kind of resurrection we have it's not merely spiritual.

Yeah, it's bodily as well. Because Jesus is the first fruits. He's the example. He's the rule not the exception. So we expanded more on that last night. And so that will be released to everyone before too long.

I feel like it's not that hard of an argument because I mean Paul's arguing against all kinds of Gnosticism and spiritualizing all these physical aspects. Yet we're sitting here talking about hyper preterism and full preterism because it seems to be not growing in popularity.

But more people are considering it or talking about it. Why do you think that is and how long has this heresy been around?

The heresy that's full-fledged Articulated is not even 30 years old and began with Max King a church cross minister. Who started codifying? covenant eschatology in the early 1990s, so I'm saying it's really new on the scene which should cause red flags.

Yeah, right. They asked me why this is a little bit controversial and perhaps there's many reasons. But we've seen an uptick in post-millennialism, which is orthodox and good and healthy and we can continue the conversation.

But there are people that will take Post-millennialism and tweak it and twist it slightly and then it pumps out into full preterism. And I'll tell you what I want to cause my post-millennialist brothers to just be mindful of and it's how we Articulate this age and the age to come okay.

And so if we do not see this age as this temporal perishing evil age. And we look at that as the Mosaic Jewish age that ended in 70 AD. Well now we have issues with the Olivet Discourse where the Parasee is to happen at the end of the age that Jesus would be with us even to and low even to the end of The age and so if we put that back at 70 AD.

Well now we're in a pickle with the Parasee and so I'm saying post-millennialism love Jeff Durbin dr White and I've got to talk with Doug Wilson really had a lot of respect for R .C Sproul like to me post-millennialism healthy contend for the kingdom.

Preach God's law preach God's gospel. But we have to be careful of how we articulate this age and the eternal state of the age.

You're saying that but I think everyone you just mentioned and most of the post-millennials that I know. Yeah. They have they almost all interpret it that way. I would think so I think if I talked to if I'm remembering correctly Doug Wilson Jeff Durbin some of the people you mentioned they go that is the Jewish age the animal sacrifice stop that was.

That's their partial preterism because for post mill to work. You kind of have to have that partial preterism. Don't you. I mean, I mean, I guess you. I think you do. I don't know. I'm thinking this out live on.

Yeah, that's okay. And you're right you do have to be a partial preterist. But what you don't have to be committed to is how you understand the age. Okay, come and what I'm saying is be post mill to the bone.

But this age Jesus defined in the Gospels and you heard in my presentation. This is an this is a temporal age where temporal things like marriage are going on. We're we're eating. We're drinking. We're being married with one another in this temporal age.

That's perishing. Yeah, and so this is much more this check this out this to me this is the right mindset this includes the Jewish aeon. Yeah, it includes the the age of the Gentiles if you will both of those fall under this age.

Yeah, so we need to be care and we can be partial preterist with affirming that this age is All the way till the end of time. Wow, that makes sense. No, that's just the caution because I've been in a lot of conversations and trust me a lot of healthy Post-millennialists affirm exactly what I'm saying, but I've noticed the trend with some of the men.

We've mentioned that kind of see that a little bit differently and praise God. They know where to be very careful. Sure, and I've had Doug Wilson on my podcast. Okay, we talked about the dangers of hyperpreterism and he did a fantastic job.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know for me.

It's why do you know for me? As an optimistic Millennialist.

I thought you're maybe post mill. No, I'm just wait to be right.

Yeah, I am but I'm just wait and look at look at and I and I love Durbin and I love Doug Wilson. He's been on the podcast many times. I do fight left feast. I'm on the fight left feast network with cross politic.

I just haven't heard a more convincing argument for me scripturally than amillennialism. It's just usually the sip I'd say simplest. It's not that it is the simplest but it's just so congruent with the rest of the Bible that we have.

That we have a redemption plan a death a resurrection an ascension and a return.

Here are the two things that have convinced me of all millennialism for today I tell people you know, because I want to be charitable in these conversations. Yeah, but the all mill seems to consistently affirm that Jesus can return at any moment.

Yeah, just like the parable of the ten virgins. Be ready. Be watchful. Have your wicks trimmed, right?

Yeah.

As we're post mill seems to be committed to say we're in the early days of the church and we got a lot of work To do implying that Jesus can't return now. And I know there's different views within that but like Doug Wilson some of them would say yeah.

We're in the early days of the church not the last days when he's gonna return. So that's something I think falls in favor for the all millennial position. Yeah, and we can get to some more of those details.

Like I said Maintaining that this age and the age to come is very important. Yeah, I'm in this conversation for sure.

Yeah, so anyone out there that comes across that or might be talking to someone and they bring up preterism or partial preterism I would say, you know. Reference this. Do a little study. Make sure you understand what you're talking about.

We've had an influx of new listeners. So we've covered this, you know years before we're going into year four written on the podcast. But I thought it was a good opportunity just to sit down with you.

And then kind of cover that the other point I was gonna say because it just left my mind. But post mill and props to them. It's they. They kind of say this winners mentality. Winners mentality, right.

Jesus gave us marching orders not to fail but to to conquer. And I want to take a step back and say but it seems like Paul's mentality was victory through suffering. Yeah, that's what I'll be preaching on here in a little bit.

Calvinism in tribulation. There you go.

12Five Church, the Apologetic Dog, and Guarding the Gospel

So throw out your socials tell people where they can find you and.

Get a hold of you a couple things want to say two main things is I serve as a pastor and elder at 12 5 church. You can find us at 12 5 church .com. This is a church plant in Jonesboro, Arkansas. So if you're in the Northeast Arkansas area, we'd love for you to come check out our fellowship.

We've just leased out a new building in our downtown area. So blessed and so I serve as a pastor and elder with Nathan Hargrave. Who is the the other elder and son of Roy Hargrave who? Was wonderful man passed away just a few years ago, but had a big reach and impact.

I've had a big impact in Keith Foskey's understanding the the doctrines of grace. Yeah, so good connection there. So 12 5 church number one, that's a that's a Bible verse by the way. Romans 12 verse 5.

Even though we are individually one of another we're one together in the body of Christ.

Sure, Ephesians 2 here dead man walking right once dead now rise. Amen alive.

So my church family has said Jeremiah We see your heart and love for apologetics and we need to support you in that. And so my apologetics ministry is the apologetic dog. And you can find me mainly on YouTube.

That's where kind of all my content is coming from but I have big plans to reach all the other social media platforms. Okay, look at the website because it's really bad, but it's about to get revamped.

So you gotta see that about to get real good.

Well, Jeremiah, thanks for sitting down with us looking forward to your next session and guys. Remember chief and a man is to glorify God enjoy him forever. We'll be back with more. God bless so. We heard you this morning in your first session.

You mean you're awake for. You know, that's the tough one because I'm not a morning person the first 15 minutes I'm going. Okay stay awake let's get that coffee flowing in me, but. It was good stuff, man.

The conference so far has been. I mean, we're only through halfway through day one and it's been pretty awesome. Has a lot. There's a lot of great content. Yeah touch on what you talked about a little bit.

The History of Calvinism and Why Church History Matters

Well, I mean a lot of it was the history of Calvinism was my get right up on that microphone, too. If you don't mind so the history of Calvinism, right? This was the topic assigned to me which as I said, yeah Dr. James white a history professor.

Why am I doing this subject? Talk about the pressure if you say anything wrong, like, you know that that fear of that look that glaring look. You got that wrong, you know. Make sure you pronounce Augustus name, right, you know.

Okay, but a lot of people don't know all the history a lot of the history that folks Don't value especially when it comes to the theology a lot of people think like oh, we're in the 21st century. We got it all figured out and it's always been that way.

Yeah, and I don't think through the development of the theology and over time. You're looking at the great debates. We've had that we've discussed great you had Augustus and Pelagian. Yeah, but that didn't end the debate then you had Lutheran Erasmus and we talked about Calvin Arminius, but really the debate that happened was their followers because by the time yeah, they ended up.

Really what we consider Calvinism today when we talk about the tulip. Both those men were long dead before the Five points really have five points of the remonstrance and then the counter points from the counter remonstrance.

Yeah, and you did a really good job of kind of. Talking about the history of the points a lot of people outside of the reformed or Calvinistic tradition don't understand. It wasn't like Calvinist came along and said oh, here's our five points.

It was in response to Arminius and his five. Yeah, and you did a really nice job of showing that kind of given the history of it and This conference so far which of course we're right now. We're at the why Calvinism conference at Tullahoma, Tennessee.

And going through the history of Calvinism. Going through we just heard Keith Foskey talk about. You know the Calvinism of Luther. Claude Ramsey was earlier today. You started the conference. Which I which I thought was awesome to have someone with your energy and knowledge right up front get us going.

Lay the foundation right so we can build on it.

But.

Some of the stuff, you know, I've been in the reformed camp for since 25 when I really first started digging into it and been learning ever since. But just in this first day I'm already learning some things that I didn't know.

It's unbelievable to me that we have so many believers. With so little knowledge of not only scripture, but church history. Sometimes I'll talk to someone who's been sitting in a pew or a church seat for 30 years.

And they don't go beyond their kind of three or four talking points of their Non-denominational Baptist light. Or maybe it's an SPC or maybe it's an AG Church.

And.

When you really start talking to him about church history and what do these guys believe and that believe in these arguments and debates? They were having. They'll look at you with a blank face and go geez.

I don't know and this conference is so rich with that. I mean every guy talked to you or like I said Keith or Claude or dr. White or any of these guys Just a wealth of knowledge of not only scriptural history, but church history too, which I think it's important to know that.

It is important because people think that the theology was created in a vacuum.

Right just came out and yeah one day just presented to you on a platter correct.

And it didn't it it came this is one of the things I tried to bring out was there is fruit from Pelagius. There's fruit from rightness. There's fruit from Armini Erasmus the fruit is that because of what they taught.

We had people correcting that people that had to think through okay. How do we answer this now and later other people come up and try to find different ways to explain error? Yeah within the so it needs to be clarified again.

That's what refines our theology. Yeah, and when you look at it through history, and I kind of mentioned this in the early church. They weren't worried about in times. This is a big discussion. We have like a lot around at this conference a lot of joking with that, but sure their concern was was Jesus Christ Truly God and truly man.

How do we explain right? Because their argument was if he's not truly man. He cannot be a Substitute for other humans, but if he wasn't truly God how could he pay an eternal fine? They were wrestling with that so really at the heart of it was the doctrine of salvation right, but it started with The nature of Jesus Christ, that's the first thing that had to be debated.

But then shortly after that by Augustus this time was the nature of salvation yeah, because once you've defined okay. This is who Jesus is why did he come yeah now that you've addressed that?

As.

Church history ends up happening. You get into more of okay. What is the church. Yeah, right. So now we're kind of we have a lot of our theology nailed down 2 ,000 years later so we could debate end times right.

And that's why I think that is such a debated topic. That's because it's a good point. The history is kind of nailed down all the other topics. Yeah, pretty good, and we have just a plethora of Men who have battled it out good side and bad side to address.

And we've seen the truth bubble up and and rise over and over again. And that's why when we go through the history. Yeah, we look at it's not just okay. What did. What did Calvin believe. Did Calvin believe Calvinism.

Well depends how you define it. If you define it by tulip no right. Because he never. That wasn't even.

The.

The five points of the remonstrance were actually responded with and I mentioned this with eight points of the counter response, right? It wasn't a it ended up being a five. In the end the tulip that we would refer to is a response to the five points of the remonstrance those that were the followers of.

You know Jacob Arminius.

But.

They developed I mean within those four years of Coming up with the concert monstrance their first eight points got but filtered down to the five points one for each article of The followers Arminius right and so it's not something that like Calvin came up with and said okay.

Here's the the five points right that developed in a response to addressing the errors of other people. And so you ended up seeing how you know Calvin goes. Calvin and Arminius may not have been that far off at least in the early Life of Arminius.

Yeah later as Arminius kept fighting staunchly against Biza It it caused the division and there but their followers went even further. Yeah, and so We have to be aware of church history, especially when we're looking at theology.

It's a big mistake to just think that these things happen in a vacuum and not. Yeah, we're standing on the shoulder of shoulders of Giants. Yeah truly I mean I brought up the point with you you look at Augustus.

Everyone looks at him. The Catholic Church can look to him the Protestants can look to him. Yeah, our Millennials can look to him pre Millennials look to him. It's like because he wasn't he was not clarifying the doctrines the way we have them listed today, right?

Right we've had to refine and refine and refine because error keeps popping up over and over and over. Right and where it's enough to say For early century the church Ecclesia. Yeah, I have this in my book.

What do we believe I give a history of the church? You look at Ecclesia it was enough to say this is a Group of people that are that are gathering together for the worship of God. Yeah, but that didn't stay for long eventually you had to say okay?

We got to clarify this now we have to say that this is a visible versus invisible Church. Oh wait now we have to say during the time of the the Puritans. No, no the church is not just a gathering for the worship of God.

It's not just the visible versus invisible, but now it's also the fact that this is a group people that have three things the preaching of God's Word. Yes, the sacraments or you know ordinances. And then the which surprises people church discipline if it doesn't have those three.

It's not a church right right so so the idea Of church just that work had to be refined through history to be more and more precise.

Because of the fact that error kept cropping up. Yeah, you know what one of the things that really Just really threw me when I was young in my faith and going back through church history Was how many of not only the disciples and the early martyrs, but right up through the reformers were martyred?

For something as simple as the freedom of I get to say Salvation you know is by God alone through grace alone, and you go. We just say that like yeah, it's settled. We know that and yet you've got reformers being burned at the stake sliced in half right all these things.

For going against the Catholic Church and just stating these biblical things yeah.

I I have a had the opportunity to see a Bible, and I know you you may not agree with this part of it, but a Pastor had a Bible that he cherished very much, and when you open it up you see the bloodstains of An Anabaptist who is killed because he believed that you should be baptized only as believers.

Yeah, and he was slain over his own Bible because the fact that he had rebaptized someone. Wow, and you sit there and go. Like what. Yeah like in our day and age we wouldn't think of killing someone over that.

Yeah, and yet they held the Doctrines. What right or wrong they held their doctrines so strongly. Yeah, that they would they would literally take people's lives over. And but to think that here's someone who gave his life.

Yeah, how easy would it have been say you know what. Okay? I you know we don't have to baptize rebaptize. Yeah, right. But you also so now I do can we say well people held strongly enough. They would kill someone, but they held strongly enough that they'd say you can kill me.

Yeah, you know they're gonna. They're going to hold to their these convictions so strongly.

And I think it's so foreign to this to the modern age. I don't know. Most Christians either don't even know those doctrines or if presented with them go. I don't care either way.

Yeah.

You know in. And then you've got reformers that were sitting in prison with wives and kids at home for years and all they had to do. The Pope just goes hey just say Yeah, you see you don't believe in faith alone.

That's all you got to do you know. No, and they held it so so strongly. I mean could you imagine if we had a true remnant of men? And I think we're starting to see that here more in America even that held those convictions those that closely.

Willing to stand up for the truth. Yeah, you know the fact is that Christ gave his life. He died on a cross that we could have forgiveness. Yeah, and then we seem to be more concerned about living a comfortable life on earth.

Yeah, right. I mean.

Hello.

What did he sacrifice we could never make up for that sacrifice? How do we not be a people who are willing to give our life for Christ now? I think a time is coming in America. Yeah, I think we're two to five years away where There will be people that are going to have to make the decision.

Yeah of giving their life for Christ literally because I think the government's gonna require it. Yeah, the reality is we're gonna see a separation of those who say hey I just want this comfortable Christianity and those there say I'm standing up because this is true.

Yeah, and we need men of conviction. Men and women but we need people that are gonna Christians they're gonna stand up and say thus says the Lord. Yeah, and I'm gonna stand on this and hey if you're gonna kill me over this you're gonna kill me over this.

Because this is what scripture says. Yeah, and that is lacking. I think you are right there's I think that we're starting to see and this is the the value of persecution and I know. Even in my talk that I gave people probably when I said the the fruit of Pelagian.

Yeah, everyone was probably I saw people looking at me like what what fruit of plate there. Yeah, there's fruit from Pelagian. There's fruit from Erasmus there's sure more minutes and that fruit is the truth.

Yeah, but there's fruit from persecution the fruit from persecution is that we're gonna have men that are gonna stand for the truth. Yeah, we're gonna men that are gonna stop being willy-nilly and being like, well, okay.

Let me just let me see if I can get a big following on social media. Yeah, God's not impressed with people's social media platform, okay but we need to stand up and we and I believe that men that stand up for truth are Contagious to other men that 100 and what we need is.

You know, there's a guy Dan Bongino. He sure he talks he talks politically. But he mentions the second person to dance and what he means I bet he plays a video of a guy that's dancing by himself. Yeah, and everyone just watches him, but then it's when the second guy gets up and starts dancing.

Yeah, everyone else follow up. Now. We have a we need the sound we need men They're willing to not only stack up stand up to be first, but stand up to be second.

Sure.

We need people that are willing to stand up and say I am willing to die on the hill of Christ. And If you if you want to kill me, so be it. We need people that are gonna stand up and say this is what God's Word says.

I mean one of the things I love about this conference is We have so many people you and I for example disagree theologically. Many folks here disagree theologically. But we all believe in core doctrines sure of salvation.

Yeah, the orthodoxy of Christianity absolutely. And anyone you anyone the guys here, right? I would hope that I'd be willing I have to say I hope because I haven't been in the situation. But I'd hope I'd be willing to die for any one of us.

Yeah here for the for the sake of Christ. But the thing is that We need people that are willing to do that. We can sit here and joke around about our differences. You know, I I gave a good plug for Presbyterian view.

You weren't there for you walked out of that at just the two minutes. I'm sorry.

Had to take a real estate. Yeah, that's the unfortunate part of being in it. Yeah, it's kind of being on call.

But yeah, but it was there for it. It's like we could we could you know the thing I love about this comes. We respect one one of those differences. Yeah, we joke about it. But on the core issues will die for we're gonna sit there and defend one another, you know.

The conference why Calvinism posted a you know picture one of the speakers, you know. Someone someone had a negative thing to say. I'm like, okay, I'm deleting that. You know, and I'm about to delete you, you know, it's like, you know.

It's it's a thing where I'm gonna defend any one of these guys, even though I don't agree theologically with him a hundred percent.

Yeah, right.

Maybe maybe not agree with the Bigfoot. But you know, he wants to believe that that stuff. Okay. But look we're gonna have latent flowers is gonna come here right at a white Calvinism conference. I I believe it.

Most people will be nice to Leighton. I yeah, I believe Leighton will be in heaven. Yeah in my conversations with him. Do I disagree with him on things? Obviously, yeah, do I think that you know, there's things I wish he would he would take to heart that we would share with him obviously, right.

But.

He's a brother in Christ.

Yeah.

I would I would stand alongside him when it when it comes to a shooting when the shooting gallery of the government comes in.

Sure, right.

But I wish that we'd have more men that are willing to say, you know what I may not be I may not win me. Accolades from my followers or those who are in my camp, right? But maybe we need to put down the tribalism.

Christian Unity, Persecution, and the Need for Conviction

Yeah, and stand up and say no we we got to be one. I think a big reason why the government feels they can come after Christians and this is way off topic of white Calvinism. Yeah, you're interested in yeah as well, but I think a big reason why they can is because Christians don't unite.

They're so divided. Yeah. Yeah, and we're more interested in our division than we are in our unity now. I'm not saying we give up our convictions. Clearly. None of us are doing that here. Yeah. But we have to recognize who the real enemy is and I think too many Christians treat each other as the enemy.

Yeah.

I know. Having you know as soon as I announced that I was gonna be speaking at this conference on the topic why Calvinism? I started to get hate emails and messages and all that from different people because like well Calvinism is just a heresy.

But do you understand it? No, you don't right a long definition. Yeah, and if you're gonna argue that then, you know, you're just causing division. Yeah, right and there are people who that they're they're perfectly happy to cause division.

You see it on social media all the time. Sure and I would argue that we had that in history as well. I mean, I think that you see I mentioned in the message, you know Erasmus in his writing of freedom of the will.

He's he's basically saying like I don't even get the issue. It's not a big deal to me. But all my friends like everyone's kind of poking them like you're the guy you got to take on Luther. You got to be the one because someone's got to do it, right?