Steven Furtick, Theological Pest Control

Apologia Studios

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devil. You know, what's funny about that is whoa, echo.

00:09

Carmen. Okay. Fix it. Sorry. If y 'all heard that, we just had the craziest echo. Like we were in the world's biggest cave system.

00:18

Anyways, I was laughing because you guys did that whole thing on like cultic symbols and colors and all that.

00:24

And then there was that whole episode from the studio, right? Yeah. Yeah, I did too.

00:31

Because we literally just put that video up and then we played the episode of the studio last night that had us making fun of that previously.

00:40

So that video has done pretty well for us. A lot of people are watching that and have gotten stuff out of that.

00:47

So I think it's just the trolls that are loud that say those things. Right. Are we have audio yet?

00:55

We have sound. It appears as though sound is back up and going. Good job,

01:01

Carmen. Right. Okay. Thanks, Carmen. Sorry, guys. We've not said anything important so far.

01:06

So you're all good. Yeah, you don't need to know who we are or anything about us. Yeah. So sorry if you're just getting the sound.

01:12

We've already talked about so many things. So Joy. Yes.

01:19

You're glowing a bit. Am I? Or are you just saying that? No. Because you're not even looking at me.

01:27

I already saw you. I already saw you. I made my assessment. You're glowing.

01:34

Joy has a superhero kind of way. Yeah, exactly. Joy has a large announcement to make.

01:43

So Joy, what is the announcement you have to make? I am engaged.

01:53

That's what you were focused on over there. I was like, what is he working on? Exactly. What else? He's working on things over there.

02:00

Got a new little song. Thank you, everyone. And the crowd goes wild. Did you, like, line up?

02:09

Nope. Sound close for that. Actually, we're part of this deal. Let's put it together as it goes.

02:15

You know what I miss is the J -Man laugh. That was the best. Oh, I know. You guys don't even know what we're talking about.

02:20

No, I'm new school. I was brought in after the fact. Yeah, so yes, we can't go back.

02:25

It was just purely a thing that you know what it is. Then yeah, I mean, we're happy for you.

02:32

Mad props because you're OG. Right? So I have been listening. Not like these new blood. Do you know what we're talking about?

02:37

The J -Man laughter producer. Yeah. See, that's why you're not the only one. Luke found this little clip of someone laughing and it just happened to sound exactly like the guy that used to produce the show when it's on my iPad, but it was on like a soundboard thing that I had.

02:56

Anyways, back to what we were talking about. So Joy's engaged. I am everybody. Yes. Congrats joy.

03:02

So happy for you. Sorry to all those single dudes out there. You missed out, but what's cool?

03:10

So you're going to be marrying a man named Matthew Hunter. Don't mess this up Matthew. We know where you go to church, but this is what's cool.

03:18

I don't think he listens to you. I think he listens to Sheologians. I mean, doesn't everyone?

03:28

Just kidding. I obviously love both shows. My wife. Both shows. My wife wasn't but not apology radio.

03:36

Probably your wife and your wife as well. So what's crazy is Zack Morgan discovered.

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This is so Hunter will be your new last name very soon. And Jaeger means

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Hunter in German. So are you guys going to like change the name of Sheologians or something like Hunter Hunter logins or something?

03:58

Well, that's not nearly as clever as not which you came up with.

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But anyways, but it's fitting. It's we'll have to do something with it. You guys definitely need like a picture like holding shotguns and like carrying like that is so us dead.

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There's something like some geese over your shoulder and a dead goose.

04:22

That's just nothing quite like it. That just screams me totally on brand. It's perfect.

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Not exactly. So yeah, so yay. Yay. Joy. Yay. Joy. We're excited

04:37

Jaeger. We're excited. So I just returned from my sabbatical your shop optical shop optical.

04:46

So that was fun. Thank you. Everyone that was praying for that was great break from Ministry. Yeah, dude, you got to see some awesome stuff.

04:53

Yeah, so we ran into RV drove up the coast of California up to the

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Redwood Forest and then came across to Lassen Volcanic Park and then down to Lake Tahoe and then

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Yosemite Sequoia Havasu and back 2 ,500 miles and a 43 -foot

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RV on the most treacherous stupid mountain roads.

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You've ever seen in your entire life, dude. I want to say that only someone like you with your truck skills could navigate something like that.

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There was a vehicle that size. It was insane. There was one point where we came across the state. I didn't know I was going to have to do this because I had to reroute because of the forest fires up in Redding.

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Yeah, and they've been asking for fire fall. Not that I don't think that's what they're asking for but anyways, it was like five hours across the state and I mean literally it'd be like 90 -degree turns like I'm crawling in this big

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RV because it's like there's six -inch shoulders and like 7 ,000 feet to your death. Wow, and it was incredibly stressful, but we made it.

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I actually have a question for you guys really quickly. Yeah, so we're talking about this trip.

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Yeah, your sabbatical. I think some people are confused as to why we're talking about this which fine, but let's

06:16

I kind of just want to quickly talk about like what is a sabbatical and why is it important for pastors to take time off?

06:23

Good question. Good point. Sorry, I saw a comment. Somebody said why is this setting look so dark?

06:29

Red is a little depressing. I hope that they're joking. So yes, so this is a joke.

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We'll repaint it white tomorrow. Fine. So yeah, so a sabbatical

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Sabbath Sabbath means rest. Yeah, right. And so it's just a mandatory rest for your pastors.

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They should be they should take one in. Well because you guys essentially like if you're a pastor that well, there's there's a reason why they say that if you can do anything else do it because you guys are essentially

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I mean one of the only jobs that are on call all hours of the day every day of the week.

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Yeah, so for for you the sabbatical isn't just like a family vacation.

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It means we don't call you with ministry questions. Right? It is the two weeks out of your entire year.

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Yeah that you just get to spend with your family and you're you're not thinking about anything else a mandatory ministry break.

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So it was yeah, exactly. It was nice. Yes, pastors need rest. Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, and so we're talking about it because it's a celebration of Luke getting to take some time off and spend it with his wonderful family.

07:42

Yes. Thank you. Sorry D boys for boring you. Bye. He said bye -bye. He's bored.

07:48

Well, if he wants to come back, you can scrub through later when we're not live. Yeah, fine. So skippers, okay, okay.

07:55

So that's what that was and it was awesome. And so I have a couple stories.

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One, it was really cool. Well, three stories. It was really cool to see God's glory in his creation.

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There was just some amazing the red the sequoia trees are just if you haven't seen them there, it's pictures.

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Don't do justice. Can't you drive a car? Can't you drive a car? Yeah, there's there's some that are hollowed out so you can drive through them.

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Yeah, and so they're like two to three thousand years old. So they actually have some like where they were died.

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And it's like a cross -section. Yeah, like dated like back to when Jesus was a child. Like crazy stuff. Wow, so that was cool and Yosemite there was some just amazing huge giant rock things there and stuff.

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So so that was cool. And so a funny story is California is so stinking socialist.

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Tell us how you really besides the straws. I didn't have any I didn't get arrested for having straws, but you did have to pay $1 for every tree looked at.

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Yeah, basically like are you looking at that tree? So my one story is I'd already been in California for like a week and a half.

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We just left Tahoe. We're headed towards Yosemite and like I had to pull through this like check stop thing.

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That was like not the normal one you go through at the border. It was like a different one and and the guy is like the guy was like kind of being a jerk to me and he's like asking what

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I'm like. I've been he's like, do you have any vegetables? Did you bring vegetables and steak is the plate? I had the on the

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RV. I rented was from Utah. And I was like, or Idaho. I'm sorry was my home and I was like, no,

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I didn't. I've been here for a week and a half and he's like asking. He's like drilling me like what about this? What about that? And I was like, dude, I've been here for a week and a half in California.

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I don't everything I have. I bought in California. He's like, what about firewood? I was like, yeah, I have some firewood.

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He's like, where did you buy it? And I was like, I don't even remember. I've been on like six stops. I don't know. He's like, was it more than 60 miles?

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I was like, yeah, it's more than 60 miles. So I have to get out get the firewood out and he has to inspect the firewood to make sure there's no beetle bark something or other and then like he's like, oh, it looks good.

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You can go and then he like gives me this thing and he's like, hold on to this because you're in there 16 of these in the state and you're gonna have to get it signed off and I was like, welcome to California.

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So anyway, they inspect your fire. Yeah, I was so rude about it. I knew it was bad when

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I went to Circle K in California put some things on the counter to check out and she said thanks for coming in.

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But there was no bag that she put my stuff. Oh, yeah, they charge you for bags. I'm like, I'm like, can you put that in a bag?

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She's like, yeah, that'll be 10 cents. Just like excuse me everywhere. Take my bags for granted in Arizona.

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I guess I just like I'm just used to people. So yeah, I even went to I was stopped at a

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Walmart and she was like trying to talk me out of it out of bags.

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She's like, do you want any bags? I was like, yeah, just whatever you need another 10 cents, you know, I'm like whatever and she like shoved everything in like two or three and then she like you sure you want this in the bag like I can and I was like, you didn't understand you didn't comprehend, right?

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What's going on? It's fine. Yeah, you can give me four bags. I'll pay for it. So yeah, that's that and then so here's a cool story about God's sovereignty though.

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So so I mentioned I had driven all these crazy roads and survived all those well one night the whole two weeks was amazing except for about a two -hour period.

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So we're coming back from Yosemite had to go up stupid crazy mountain to get back up and I was trying to beat the it was starting to get dark and I was trying to get back so I can get the

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RV plugged in and all this stuff before dark. So I end up missing my turn went like 10 15 miles out of the way head back track.

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Anyways, I make it up and then I'm almost out of gas. So I pull into the gas station trying to hurry stinking hit the concrete pole.

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Oh no, right by the gas pump didn't see it, you know crunched up this super expensive RV and I was like, oh my gosh, so I get the gas we get back to the camp and then

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I was like trying to hurry hook it up and the doors jam and it's the main door panel like has the power and the water and all this stuff and I'm like just kind of freaking out because I'm like we're like up in the middle of nowhere.

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I have no cell phone or data or anything for like four days, you know, and so I'm trying to open this thing and then the key breaks off and I got a national and I'm just like why are you crying?

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We're having fun. Am I sweet? My sweet girls come over with a dog and you're like daddy.

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I'm so sorry that it happened. I'm like just go away. And so then

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I cry. No, so I go around to the other side and I'm like trying to I have like a zillion keys and I'm like maybe one of these other keys works and another key snaps off and I was just like, oh my gosh.

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Anyways, I end up getting into the thing. The panels destroyed. I get hooked up and so for like four days, we're trying to get a hold of the owner because like I'm just dreading telling the owner right, you know that I could smash his

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RV and he was on vacation somewhere else and I couldn't get a hold of him. And so like my wife and I were like just sick to her stomach over and all this ended up being he ended up one time.

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I got a hold of him. He was like really super amazing and generous and understanding and he was really cool about it.

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But so so here's where I'm going to the story. So we get to went to Yosemite.

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No, I'm sorry. This was leaving us and then we went to Sequoia. So we're at Sequoia and I pull in and I'm trying to hook this thing up the doors jammed again.

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And I just feel like a complete moron, you know, because I smashed his RV and so our RV neighbors come over and like this dude was like amazing and he was like what happened and I told me he's like, oh that really stinks.

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He's like don't feel bad. This sort of thing happens all the time. And he's like, here's my tools use my tools and he gave me tools whatever

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I needed to like get this thing working and all this as a man. You guys are really awesome. So I get that fixed up and then afterwards

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I give his tools back and so there's like they have like two big RVs or six of them. So there's like a couple and they're like probably like in their 50s and then like a younger couple there are like 30 and then there's two other guys two older guys like in their 50s and they're like come you guys want something to drink have a drink.

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We got margaritas and martinis. It wasn't like the movie RV with Robin Williams, right? No, and it's funny crazy stalker family.

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I've had like you're probably like the eighth person. Have you seen RV? My bad to bring it up again.

14:26

No, it's fine. So where I'm going with this is we sit down and like they were like offering us drinks like super really amazing generous like just really great people and they're like have you eaten yet?

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And it was like 930 or like I was like, yeah, I like shoved a couple tacos in my face or like we haven't eaten yet and they like sit down and they give the spread of like ribs and corn on the cot like all the stuff.

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They're like handed like shoving food to me and all this so so they you know, they were really super generous don't think they were

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Christians necessarily, but they you know, they were had some foul language not like vile wasn't like turned off by it, you know, but you know, they didn't act necessarily like Christians, but they were super nice.

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So we're just sitting there eating and then they're like asking me like what do you do for a living and I was like well actually my pastor and like it was insane.

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So like the conversation totally shifts, right and and so up to this point.

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I'm like, like I'm literally been asking myself like what God why did you allow me to crash this stupid RV, you know, because trips been so amazing.

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So then I meet these people so then all of a sudden, you know, there's six of them and they start asking me like about theology and like Mormonism and addictions like I'm giving them the whole rundown on idolatry and addictions and like so the younger couple they said they were raised

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Church of Christ and they go to some giant Church in California somewhere by San Diego, but and so I'm like just totally just being totally open and honest and like having this whole conversation and then the one of the older guys is talking to us and come to find out him and the other older guy have been are homosexual and been together for like 30 years had no clue and like I'm just giving this whole gospel spiel and I like going through Romans 1 and yeah, and it was like but anyway, so it was like totally amazing guy.

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I had like this to our moment where it was terrible and it was like just sick over it and then like God use that to like introduce me to these people.

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Yeah, and so like the guy and then the next day Sequoia is like a really another treacherous route to get in and out and he has like a tricked out like Jeep Wrangler Rubicon and he was like just take my

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Jeep and I was like what yeah, just take my Jeep have fun and I was like, are you serious? He's like, yeah, and so we took his

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Jeep and it was like this totally awesome truck. We drove the mountain went to you know, so all these trees stuff came back down and like and he's like if you ever in San Diego hit me up.

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I got a huge house in the pool. You guys can welcome to stay and I'm just like you guys are literally like the most generous like inspiring people ever met in my entire life.

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Anyway, so I got to share the gospel and all this stuff. So it was cool. Praise God's good. Yeah, awesome, dude. So anyways, that's my story.

17:10

So that's why we believe in sovereignty by the way, right? Right? No, seriously. No, you're absolutely right. And like like I said, like if it wasn't for God's sovereignty,

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I would it would have possibly ruined the trip, you know, you know, so that being said yeah on that note of sovereignty.

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Yes, and the importance of it and that was perfect. So we're going to move into a discussion now on the the furtick

17:39

Steven the furtick. So I want to I want to do a little

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I said Jesus do a little the Captain Narcissus and if you don't know what we're talking about, maybe you could explain that Daniel the difference between exegesis.

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I said you sure exegesis is drawing something out of a text I said Jesus is reading it into a text.

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So Narcissus is when you read yourself into the text. Yeah, boom Joseph Smith.

18:04

Wait, what Mormons a lot but that's really what we're talking about today when we talk about Steven Furtick and yeah, an elevation

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Church, if you don't know about them at all, it's a giant multi -campus Church in Charlotte, North Carolina.

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I know they have a presence in Canada too. I think but and then obviously a huge online huge their videos of hundreds of thousands of views.

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Yeah sermons do yeah, and we were just talking one of the clips we were watching which I don't know if we'll get to but like he said something that just literally

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I don't even understand what he was saying. It made zero sense. And like the crowd was like roaring with like cheering and clapping.

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I was like, what why are you cheering? You that didn't make any sense. I think one of the best ways to understand

18:47

Steven Furtick is that he invited Matt Chandler to his church to speak once and Matt Chandler preached a sermon about how

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God is for God's own Glory and not and you shouldn't you're not the hero of the story and they basically tried to kill that sermon after having it invited him.

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Are you serious? Yeah, and that's a great illustration of what we're talking about. Yeah, when we talk about this

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I first found out about Steven Furtick. I think it was three or four years ago. I heard his name. I was like, who's that? Yeah, everyone at the church.

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We were going to the times going crazy playing his sermons and all that and then I started to listen to some of the things he actually had to say and then there was a video that dropped with him talking about the law of God and how

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Jesus essentially broke God's law for the sake of love, right?

19:29

I know that's something we're going to get into but immediately I just had red flags going up. And so I did start to listen to some more and then it's just kind of been on my radar to avoid him because yeah, you have a very man -centered man -pleasing structure style of church messages.

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It's all about you. It's all about your place in the story. Well, and a very man -centered man -pleasing version of God.

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Yes. Yes. He's a he's basically the soft core version of the

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Prosperity Gospel Word of Faith heresy that you see in those things. Like he teaches it but he teaches it in such a way that it's palatable to the

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Southern Baptist type person in the south. Because he's a graduate, right? He's a Masters of Divinity graduate.

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Yeah, because I think he started out pretty solid. Didn't he? I don't know. It just seems like he went to a solid place, but that doesn't mean it just seems like the more popular.

20:27

He gets the more crazy. He gets as well, right? Huge following, huge church. That's probably the main thing that's concerning about his dynamic and he's youthful.

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He's a good orator. He gets everyone fired up. You know, it's intense when he, you know, it's just like, you know, the emotional, you know, building up and getting everyone worked up into a frenzy as he speaks.

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And the thing that people maybe haven't made the connection is that Elevation Church is home of Elevation Worship.

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So, you know, whether or not you've heard of Stephen Furtick, if you're a Christian, you've probably heard worship songs from Elevation and didn't know it.

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That illustrates how important worship is to the church because you think about like there are churches out there who are the most influential in the realm of music.

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Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation. These are places that teach heresy, just downright heresies.

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And yet those are the songs that we're continuing to sing all over the world because of their influence in music.

21:27

Yeah. Speaking of Hillsong, did you watch that video I shared? Yes, that was horrible.

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Oh my goodness. Did you see it Joey? The part where he's like, enlarge my border, enlarge my border. What's that?

21:39

What are those called? I can't think what they're called now. That's Super Deluxe. It was a Super Deluxe one and it was

21:45

Carl Lentz, Justin Bieber. And my favorite part though was like they were doing this interview and then

21:51

Bieber just busts out a little tooth. Kind of reminds me of you with your flossers, how you go around with your flossers after you eat.

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Anyways, but yeah, Elevation, not only is it a huge presence with music and the worship, but also they're like a brand.

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I mean, t -shirts, hoodies. I mean, it's like an experience coming to Elevation Church. The modern mega church format is based around the idea that there's a singular leader, a visionary leader, he casts a vision and then everyone in the church, he's not there to necessarily serve them.

22:23

They're there to serve his vision. That's right. And he's not necessarily, he's not a pastor. He's not a shepherd guiding his sheep, being there, you know, counseling all that stuff.

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He's there as a CEO of a corporation and that's how like theology classes are being taken out of seminaries and instead it's marketing, those kinds of things.

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And many places, that's why you have these at the movies sermons, you have, we're basing sermons off of Beatles music or all these things.

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And there's, there's, you can go online and you can purchase a sermon and then you just add in a little stuff here and there and you've got your sermon for the week.

22:57

Right. It's not delving into God's words, drawing out what God has for you. It's developing and growing your, your community through finding out what they want to hear and then crafting sermons around that.

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And it really goes back to somebody else who was in the news recently, which is Bill Hybels of Willow Creek.

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Yeah. In the 80s, he and Rick Warren, they went to Robert Shuler and they said, teach us because that's what

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Robert Shuler had done for the previous generation. Crystal Cathedral. Yep. The Crystal Cathedral. And then they based their churches around going to the neighborhoods, the communities around where they're planting.

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And they say, what do you want? What do you want to hear about? What kind of sermons would you come to, to hear? And then they craft everything around those.

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And so it's not, what does God's word say? What are the principles that God's word teaches? And then you, you go from there.

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It's what do people want to hear? And then we find them in scripture. And so that's why Rick Warren is known as a notorious scripture twister is he'll go from this translation to this one, because he comes in with an idea.

24:00

Scripture. Yeah. I mean, Hurricane Warren, right? It's that has a ring to it now, unfortunately, but no, you said it, dude.

24:09

I think one of the things that initially tipped me off as a red flag was Elevation put out a few years ago.

24:15

What was it like a baptism? How to, of how to get your church to facilitate baptisms. And so what they do is they, he gets people, he makes the call for people to come forward and get baptized, right?

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And then what he does is people from the church, not people that, you know, are coming and visiting the church, but people that are part of the church are stationed in the audience at certain places.

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And when he gives the call, those people get up, move to the areas of highest visibility and the longest walk.

24:42

So that way it becomes part of the emotionally laden experience to manipulate people into a response. It's all artificial.

24:49

It's all artificial. It's a fabricated move of the spirit. That's insane. And the idea, like they have the wrong ecclesiology.

24:56

Totally. They don't view the church as being the corporate body of Christ coming together for worship of God.

25:02

They see it as an evangelistic outrage. So the church is there for the unchurched.

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Furtick and his friend, Perry Noble, would say that a lot. Like you're not, we're not here to feed you. We're here to get you to bring your friends here because we're a church for the unchurched.

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So then they justify playing like secular music. Like all this stuff. Well and fabricating, like we'll get you saved one way or another and that's under the guise of we want people saved.

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It all flows out of their theology, which we're gonna talk about today. Because like if you don't, if you don't believe in the sovereignty of God, if you don't believe in regeneration, that it's

25:33

God's work, changing art of stone from art of flesh, you have to be manipulative. It's finny.

25:39

It's the second great awakening, false conversions. These people aren't really being converted because they're not hearing the law and the gospel preached in order to actually repent and believe.

25:51

They're getting this soft version that doesn't actually, it's evil. It makes you feel good.

25:57

Tricking people into thinking they're Christians. Right. Just make you feel good. You're the star. Yeah. So I titled this episode

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Theological Pest Control because I call him the furtick. So we're gonna do a little.

26:07

Aren't you glad to have Luke back to have another punny -ack in the studio?

26:14

I think that mainly you're very happy about that. Okay. Because then you're not the only one.

26:20

I can't contain my joy. I appreciate a good pun. So. I appreciate a good pun. Yeah.

26:26

Punny -ack. What is that? Like a car? They don't make it like a punny -ack GT. Yeah, like it's extra funny because it's that was rough.

26:35

Okay. That one was not good. Anyways, they got it. They need to move more organic. So, okay. I got this clip here. I'm going to play and it looks like on a live feed.

26:43

We have a furtick fan. Okay. We're good. Welcome going to battle with some people. So you're gonna play that clip.

26:49

This is this 52 seconds. This is the sovereignty one. That's what we're talking about. Yeah, then we'll just we'll just see how things the most recent one that we saw that was concerning.

26:58

Right, right. So let me get this going here. Here we go. Oh, let me turn it up. The power of God was in Jesus the healing power of God the restoring power of God the same power that made demons flee was in Nazareth, but Jesus could not release it because it was trapped in their unbelief.

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And there's one thing that even Jesus can't do. One thing that even the son of God can't do.

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Even Jesus cannot override your unbelief. I see y 'all looking at me like is that true thought he could do anything.

27:42

He said he could not he wanted to he was prepared to he was able to and he couldn't the power of God was in Nazareth, but it was trapped in their perspective.

27:57

So that's the clip. There's so many clap. Amen. Yeah, there's so many so many things we can talk about here.

28:06

I'm just I mean, I listen to like earlier by listening and just now obviously and I'm like does he even does he even believe that Jesus was

28:13

God in the flesh on so it's so bad because he's like the power of God and he's a son of God in Jesus.

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Yeah, that's right. Like you think you gone to similar to hopefully you had a class where you learned about the

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Trinity, right? You learned about the hypostatic Union all these things. So that you can use precise language precise language and theology is important communicating the truths of scripture is important.

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We're a we're a people of the word right God provided us the words so that we can be precise when we talk about him because that's important if you think back to the

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Old Testament false worship in the Old Testament offering strange fire on the altar or reaching out to touch the

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Ark of the Covenant when you're not you're not permitted to that was met with immediate death. That's how serious

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God takes his commands his word. And so when you're imprecise in your theology and you say, oh, it doesn't matter.

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I'm communicating the same things now precise theology matters to God. Yeah doing what he commands matters to him, right?

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Yeah, unless anyone be tempted to think that we're just latching on to this 52 second clip.

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I listen to this sermon twice last night the whole the whole thing. Yeah, it's about an hour long. I listen to it.

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So I know the context in which he's speaking. Yeah, and it's the same thing. Communicated over and over in terms of the power of God being somehow trapped inside someone's lack of faith or perspective that somehow

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God is limited by what he can do word of faith because you are not believing it. Yeah, and then it goes on but this obviously that's concerning and obviously that needs to be addressed.

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But I think the most fundamental thing that needs to be addressed with someone like Stephen Furtick is this idea that we view who

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God is through the lens of our life. He says that twice in the sermon. So as people who are people of the word who believe what

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God has said about his revelation of himself to us. That's our starting point is God in his word. We are not the starting point.

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We are not the beginning point and then we kind of extrapolate our theology out from there. We read what

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God says in his word. That's the standard for what we're to believe about him and what he requires of us. Well, and that's the standard and that's where it's faster to teach the word as well.

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Otherwise, it's kind of ironic that he wrote a book called Unqualified. Yeah, sorry. I'm laughing because someone just asked why there's an occultic symbol of witchcraft in the back room.

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We talked about it on the last week show. Please. We talked about it. Oh my goodness. There's a nice neat little clip for you now.

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We can only talk about it so many times. You know what's sad is you brought up his book Unqualified and that was a response. He named it that because John MacArthur was asked what your opinion is

30:44

Stephen Furtick and he says Unqualified. Yeah, and Stephen Furtick takes that as basically he makes a mockery of a mature

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Christian pastor saying Unqualified. If a man like John MacArthur said that someone was Unqualified, someone who has that level of credibility.

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Someone who's written a commentary on first Timothy. Yeah. Okay, like you should take you should take what they say into account and not make a mockery of what they say.

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You should write those people. They're not self -reflective. They're not thinking about okay. I need to look at myself.

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Look at my fruit. What am I doing? What am I saying? Is this correct? They've gotten to this point where they think they know what's best and they don't challenge themselves.

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You don't double down on your pride and publish the book. There's no Bereans around them to be of a more noble character to challenge them.

31:30

What about Perry Noble? So he's kind of hidden away now that he's got his scandals.

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So yeah, so I mean there's a lot to talk about here. Yeah. I mean, obviously like we just said I would want to know his view of God first just, you know, how does he believe in a triune

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God? That's my first question, you know, but then the next question of course is how

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Sovereign is his God, right? That's right. And I mean we talked about Calvinism Reformed Theology Doctrines grace in here a lot and we you know, talk about how ultimately it starts with the sovereignty of God and that affects your view of Salvation.

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Yes. So clearly he has a view of God's sovereignty. That's small, right?

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That's it's very very Arminian Pelagian Pelagius.

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Yeah, not you're right. Yeah, you're right. And just I think we think we need to go. We need to actually call it what it is. No, you're right because the

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Arminians classical Arminian would not believe this. Right, right. This is this is heresy, right? It's Pelagianism, right?

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And so we'll get into some scripture here. I know there's people on the live stream that are asking for that which glad you're asking.

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We'll get into that one thing that maybe I maybe I heard him wrong, but I think

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I didn't he say that that Jesus said he wanted to but he couldn't he said that right?

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He said he said that okay. Well one that's just a lie. It's not in scripture anywhere, but let's let's get into some verses here.

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I pulled up a couple. I know you got some stuff too. So let's just to lay a foundation of the sovereignty of God.

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Maybe I mean just start. Yeah, but there and then jump into Mark. Let's do that. Yeah, and the exact I have yeah.

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Yeah, I get there. But first let's let's do that. Let's talk about this God of the Bible. Yeah, we worship right?

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Psalm 115 verse 3. Our God is in the heavens. He does whatever he pleases the verse that we read at the beginning

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Job 42 to I know that you can do all things and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted Daniel 434 for his

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Dominion is an everlasting Dominion. His kingdom endures from generation to generation all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and no one can stay his hand or say to him.

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What have you done? And then one more remember this and stand firm recall it to mind you transgressors remember the former things of old for I am

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God and there is no other I am God and there is none like me declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done saying my counsel shall stand and I will accomplish all my purpose and we talk about the sovereignty of God.

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Here's a major component of that God in his purposes cannot be thwarted right in any way right

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God's purposes will come to pass and nothing that mankind does in his sin in his own autonomy is unbelief how thwart unbelief can thwart the plans and purposes of God.

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So the major theme in those verses is that you cannot because if that could happen that he no longer be

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God, right? That's right. He's the sovereign exactly. We're going to say something. I was just going to say

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I think sometimes like people get mad when when you criticize a leader they like right when you're talking about them and one thing one of the things

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I like to tell people when they get mad. That's all you're causing division. You're causing strife. These things are important. It's necessary and basically the unity of the visible church cannot be upheld at the expense of biblical truth meaning division is caused by truth proper division, right?

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Yeah, like the scriptures talk about that you cast people out you're to you're to separate out false teachers.

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That's what you're supposed to do that the epistles in the New Testament they in Jesus himself. They always talk about correcting false teaching almost all of them universally.

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Why do they say that because it's an important thing that we are called to do right? Well and so and like what you've described is is sort of an outpouring from what we see from churches like this, which is don't don't cause any division.

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The point is to get people to come into church so that they're saved one way or another and then there's this fictional idea of togetherness and like in community and all the stuff that's not real because there's no help for anyone who's struggling.

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There's you know, the counseling is poor or whatever. I mean, they might have good programs but at that level you can't you can't

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Shepherd people with thousands of people right? You can't access a celebrity. No, right.

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So yeah, so that's our starting point. God's totally Sovereign. If he's not Sovereign, he's not God. He's not somewhat

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Sovereign. He's not kind of Sovereign. It's all or nothing right? And if you attempt to pit Jesus somehow against the prior revelation of God that's already revealed clearly who

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God is and that he's not thwarted then you have a major problem because Jesus is the second person of the

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Trinity. He's God in the flesh. So he can also not be thwarted. His purpose is the same as the father and as the spirit right?

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Jesus his own words. All that the father gives to me come to me and I will never lose them, you know, talking about drawing and all of those men will come to him.

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Yeah, that is the power of God. Every person that the father draws comes to Christ. There's no preventing them right?

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It's it's the sovereign work of God changing hearts of stone into hearts of flesh giving people new desires new loves.

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That's what we're talking about here. We're not talking about the you know, some sort of as Norman Geisler put it divine rape.

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We're talking about the loving act of God changing men's hearts changing them from sinners who hate him who curse his name every day to ones who love him and want to worship him.

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It's a it's a beautiful act. God's sovereignty is not something to fear. It's something to to take refuge in to glorify him for to love him for yeah, man.

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Absolutely. Yes. So I'm actually going to get to John 6 here in a second. So let's go ahead and here kind of make a smooth transition here.

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So I want to get to Mark 6. Yeah, I have a couple verses. I want to run through real quick. I think speak directly to what he was saying about, you know, just people essentially thwarting

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God's plans in their unbelief. So first Corinthians 5, I'm sorry 3, 5 through 9 says what then is

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Apollos? What is Paul? Servants though whom you believed as a Lord assigned to each I planted

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Apollos water, but God gave the growth, right? So it had to be God that had to give the increase.

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Verse 7. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything but only God who gives the growth he who plants and he who waters are one and each will receive his wages according to labor for we are

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God's fellow workers. You are God's field God's field building. So again, God's sovereign over their salvation.

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We can plant seeds all day long. We can water but it's God that has to give the growth. It's God that has to to overcome that unbelief and then

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Romans 9 16, you know this so then it depends not on human will or exertion again, but on God who has mercy.

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So it's not it's not up to the individual in their unbelief. It's up to God who decides to have mercy and whom he decides to have mercy and then into John.

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So I wanted to start in John 5 and kind of work into 6 a little bit. So I'm just going to kind of breeze through some of this here.

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So starting John 5 starting in verse 19. So Jesus said to them truly truly

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I say to you the son can do nothing of his own accord but only what he sees the father doing for whatever the father does that the son does likewise for the father loves the son and shows him all that he him he himself is doing and greater works and these he will will he show him so that you may marvel verse 21 for as the father raises the dead and gives them life.

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So also the son gives life to whom he will that's right.

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Yeah. So these people that he's talking about right? They didn't thwart God and they didn't thwart the power of God in Christ because their unbelief it's because Christ did not want to give them life because he gives it to whom he wills verse 22 for the father judges.

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No one but he has given all judgment to the son that all may honor the son just as they honor the father.

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Whoever does not honor the son does not honor the father who sent him truly truly. I say to you whoever hears my word and believes in him who sent me has eternal life.

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He does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life. So here in verse 24, it's those who hear his word and believe they have eternal life but in the context of this passage here they have to be given that belief verse 25 truly truly.

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I say to you an hour is coming and now is here when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God and those who hear will live for as the father has life in himself.

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So he has granted the son also to have life in himself and verse 27 and he has given him authority to execute judgment because he is a son of man do not

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Marvel at this for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out and verse 29 come out and those who have done good to the resurrection life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment then verse 30.

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I could do nothing on my own as I hear I judge and my judgment is just because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me if I alone bear witness about myself my testifony testifony.

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That's Steven Furtick right there is testimony. My testimony is not true. There is another who bears witness about me and I know that that was a good pun.

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Unintentional great pun. Organic. Yep. The testimony that he bears about me is true. You sent you sent to John and he has borne witness to the truth verse 34 not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.

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He was a burning and shining lamp and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John for the works that the father has given me to accomplish the very works that I am doing bear witness about me that the father has sent me.

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So again, the father that's giving him certain works to do he's doing not being thwarted verse 37 and the father who sent me up.

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Yeah, the father who sent me has himself bore witness about me his voice. You have never heard his form.

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You have never seen and you do not have his word abiding in you for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.

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So again here he's saying you don't believe you hear you're listening, but you're not believing but if you don't believe because it's not been granted to you to believe 39 this you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life and it is they that bear witness about me yet.

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You refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people, but I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

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I have come in my father's name and and you do not receive me if another comes in his own name you will receive him.

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How can you believe when you receive glory from another from one another and do not seek glory that comes from the only God do not think that I will accuse you to the father.

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There is one who accuses you Moses on whom you have set your hope for if you believe

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Moses you would believe me for he wrote of me, but if you do not believe his writings how you believe my words.

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Okay. So the whole point of this passage you don't believe but it's not because you are thwarting my power.

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It's because this belief has not been granted to you. And so then we'll get into verse or chapter 6 here and I'll kind of go through this quickly because it's a large passage.

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Starting in verse 25. This is great because it's all in the same conversation the same context and clearly what we just listened to from from Furtick is completely opposite and contrary to what

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Jesus himself taught here verse 25 when they found him on the other side of the sea. They said I'm rabbi.

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When did you come here? Jesus answered them truly truly. I say to you you are seeking me not because you saw signs but because you ate your fill of the loaves do not work for the food that perishes but for food that endures to eternal life which the son of man will give you for on him

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God the father has set his seal verse 28 and they said to him what must we do to be doing the works of God?

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Jesus answered them. This is the work of God that you believe in him whom he has sent. So here he's saying you want eternal life you believe in me the one that the father sent verse 30.

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So they said to him then what sign do you do that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness as it is written.

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He gave them bread from heaven to eat Jesus said to them truly truly. I say to you it was not

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Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my father gives you the true bread from heaven for the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.

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They said to him sir. Give us this bread always verse 35 Jesus said to them. I am the bread of life.

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Whoever comes to me shall not hunger and whoever believes in me shall never thirst but I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe all that the father gives me will come to me.

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So here we get into some direct refutation of Stephen for a dick here. So again first 36, but I said to you that you have seen me and yet you do not believe so he would say from his little clip there.

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You'd say well, that's because they thwarted, you know, they're preventing him from coming. Yeah, he's a gentleman. He would never he would never violate my will right?

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Right. So verse 37 all that the father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me. I will never cast out.

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So here they're not coming unless the father gives them verse 38 for I've come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me and this is the will of him who sent me that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me but raise it up on the last day for this is the will of my father that everyone who looks on the sun and believes in him should have eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.

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So again, as you see here this whole process, it's all the Trinity working together in unison to bring about salvation verse 41.

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So the Jews grumbled about him because he said I am the bread that came down from heaven. They said is not this

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Jesus the son of Joseph whose father and mother we know how does he now say I have come down from heaven verse 43

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Jesus answer them do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

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We've talked about this verse so many times here. I've lost count but the point is that those people can't come right unless the father draws them.

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So they're not thwarting anybody. They're doing exactly what the sovereign God wanted them to do see verse 45.

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It is written in the prophets and they will all be taught by God everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me not that anyone has seen the father except he who is from God.

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He has seen the father truly truly I say to you whoever believes has eternal life. I'm the bread of life your fathers ate the man in the wilderness and they died.

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This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven.

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If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever and the bread that I will give for life of this of the world is my flesh then verse 52 then the

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Jews then disputed among themselves saying how can this man give us his flesh to eat? So Jesus said to him said to them truly truly

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I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood. You have no life in you whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood is eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.

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My flesh is true food. My blood is true drink whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him as the living father sent me and I live because of the father.

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So whoever feeds on me. He also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven not like the bread of the fathers ate and died.

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Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. Jesus said these things in the synagogue as he taught at Capernaum and then lastly and also long.

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I apologize for 60 when many of his disciples heard it. They said this is a hard saying who can listen to it, but Jesus in himself are knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this said to them do you take offense of this then what if you were to see the son of man ascending to where he was before it is the spirit who gives life.

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The spirit who gives life the flesh is no help at all the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life, but there are some of you who do not believe for Jesus knew from the beginning.

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Here's this important for Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe and who it was who would betray him.

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So again in response to Stephen Furtick here Jesus knew exactly who was going to believe and who was not going to believe because it was pre -ordained from the foundation of the earth.

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So no one no one thwarted him. No one suppressed his power in their unbelief. And then lastly verse 65 and he said this is why

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I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the father.

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Amen. That's all I got to say on that. That demonstrates how clear Scripture is, the perspicuity of Scripture is it's clear.

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Not only does it we have that clear didactic teaching of only those who the father gives to me will come to me all that the father draws will come all those clear things those who have been granted to believe all that but you also have prophecy of his death burial and resurrection and this talk of eating of my flesh drinking of my blood the communion that we're sharing in that picture of Scripture that absolute certainty that Christ would die on the sacrifice day of the

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Passover in our place for our sins that is further demonstration of God's sovereignty all all of Scripture lends itself to the rest of Scripture.

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You need all of it. It's not just that right that there's this didactic teaching this, you know direct teaching about God's sovereignty in saving people, but everything that Jesus is talking about here is sovereignty his crucifixion is sovereignty.

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It's God ordaining these things to come to pass and if the almighty will of man could thwart

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God's purposes. What if what if Pontius Pilate said no, you can go free. Yeah, it is

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God's plans thwarted the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. Is that is that thwarted right? So here you have

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Furtick who is who is not holding to the sovereignty of God as a reformed person would would understand it and because of that he can't be consistent if he believes that God knows the future then he has to believe in some sort of sovereignty, but he's not teaching it that way.

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He's not being consistent with in his own system right and as Dr. White says inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

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So if God is sovereign which he has to as a I believe he's a still a Southern Baptist right within the

50:17

Southern Baptist Convention. He would have to uphold those things. Those are in the the Baptist faith and message. He would have to believe in some form of God knowing the future but his theology can't understand it can't comprehend it can't account for that stuff.

50:30

Do you want to know what his view is? I'm so glad you brought this up because it's so important. I liked it. He says in the message at 40 minutes.

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He says the Lamb of God looked at me through time and said I'll die for him, right?

50:41

So it is a classical so you have the value you are worthy for me to give my life how sickening well and that that misreading of the text is why

50:52

John MacArthur said one word. Yeah, that's why it's important because a part of the qualification isn't that you're just you you look at the first translation that you open up probably not a good one and Stephen Furtick's case.

51:07

I'm gonna guess NLT. Yeah, he opened it up and he just read it and he was like and he there obviously we said he's a good orator.

51:16

He he can he created a dynamic easy to listen to people were interacting with him the the most important thing he didn't do though is actually glean what the passage meant right for real not just not just examine it in order to make a good easy to listen to palatable sermon.

51:38

It was it was he just read it and what it meant to him was how he inserted it into his sermon and that's where we need to get to that's the most charitable best -case scenario worst -case scenario if we're if we're thinking about this this guy's not dumb, right?

51:53

Not a student very smart. He is very successful. He has a million dollar home, you know, very successful rich.

51:59

He writes books that people buy all this stuff. He's not dumb if we like I think he probably knows what he's doing.

52:07

Yeah, he's capable of doing all this stuff. Well, at least as far as when he sees the very apparent contradiction of his reading of that text and his reading of a text the text that you just read like like he he would have to deny that he read anything else in the

52:23

Bible if he was going to claim that he didn't misquote that. These guys have literally said things like the easy way out is to exposit the scriptures go verse by verse.

52:33

That's the easy way out. So they look at what they're doing. I disagree. Crafting these messages as the hard way because it probably does take work, but the problem is it's not what

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God has commanded us to do. That's what's important. I quickly I want to I respond to a comment. Someone said that what we said was since Steven Furtick has over 300 ,000 subscribers.

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Let's go put his name on our video and see if we can steal some of his light wrong wrong. Actually, our concern is that he has 300 ,000 subscribers that are following a heretic that's preaching a false gospel and leading people to eternal damnation my concern.

53:10

So our sorry, I'm on a roll. So our concern is not about getting his light but warning people that they're going to hell if they're following his false teaching continue because within these churches, you're tricking false converts into thinking they're saved.

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You're telling him you pray to prayer. You got baptized. You're saved. They haven't heard the gospel. They haven't heard the law and the gospel given to them.

53:31

So those people are have been tricked. They think they're Christians and they're not right and then there's true Christians there that are burdened that the cotton continuously get this law heaped upon them that they can't fulfill but Christ fulfilled for them, but they don't hear it.

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How do I know this? Because I went to a church like that. I heard it. I was at Omega Church. I heard the lock always the law, the law, the law bearing down on me with not no absolution.

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No grace preached to me and I asked the pastor one day when I left that church and I said,

54:00

I said, why don't we hear about the gospel? Why don't we hear about Jesus? And he said, he said these two things to me said this all the all of this is the gospel, right?

54:10

And then he said, why don't you why don't we talk about Jesus more? I only have 30 minutes. I only have 30 minutes.

54:15

That's the mentality. It's about growth. It's about getting your church bigger about getting numbers.

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It's not about genuinely preaching the gospel so that individual lives are saved from hell and it heaps that burden upon the normal Christian.

54:29

If you go to that church and you're an actual Christian, please leave. Please remove yourself from such a place.

54:35

Go to a place that's preaching the gospel that you hear the gospel preached each and every week. You are reminded that you are saved in Christ that you have peace with God that you've you've been granted everything that pertains to life and Godliness past tense as Peter says in second

54:49

Peter all things pertaining to life and Godliness have been granted to you. That's the kind of peace and that we should have.

54:57

So we're running low on time here. So I know you want to get to Mark 6. I'll let you just the verse that he was preaching from.

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So there's two accounts of this one in Matthew's gospel and then one in Mark and it's the story when Jesus returns to Nazareth.

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So he goes back home. He has his followers with him and it's the famous passage in verse 4 where he says

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Jesus said to them a prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his relatives and those of his own household.

55:22

So the next verse is the verse of focus. That's the point of the video. He could do no mighty work there except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them and he marveled because of their unbelief.

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So given the foundation we've already laid down about God's sovereignty about how he cannot be thwarted.

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You cannot say that Jesus could not heal someone if it was within him to do so, if he had the ability to do it.

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If he wanted to and he had the ability to but that was a contradiction in itself. It's not going to work. He was able to but he couldn't.

55:54

It's yeah, it's not going to work. It's the sovereignty of man that's being taught. That's why I say word of faith heresy.

56:00

Word of faith heresy because you're teaching that there's some sort of law that constrains

56:05

God. There's some sort of law of the universe that whether he created it or not. There is a standard higher than God.

56:12

Right. There's something that is controlling God. He can't do it because you haven't believed hard enough. Your faith, the reason you have cancer, the reason you have these sickness, you don't have the faith to do it.

56:20

That's the same thing that word of faith heretic preachers like Kenneth Copeland, T .D. Jakes, all of these people that we have no problem calling out would say and Stephen Furtick says it in a little bit more palatable way and people are unwilling to call him out on it.

56:33

And if you don't believe me, people do say that. They say stuff like that. You've guys seen our video of our friend

56:39

Charlie Kingston, Joy New Charlie that passed away from brain cancer. He was like on his deathbed and literally some word of faith person told him that it was because he was in sin.

56:50

Well, it's like Johnny Erickson Tata, right? Johnny Erickson Tata, paraplegic. Yeah. She went to a charismatic word of faith church like that and that's what they told her and it's like that's the kind of things that they're hearing and you see people that are crippled or you know, they have these deformities that they can't move and yet they think if I just had the faith power, then

57:10

I could walk. It's really damaging. In an immediate way and in an eternal way for sure. For sure.

57:15

Absolutely. Absolutely. And just that passage just to deal with kind of the issue there of the text saying

57:22

Jesus could do no mighty work there that actual Greek phrase appears elsewhere in the New Testament too, and it has different usages depending upon its context.

57:31

So it doesn't always mean did not have the ability right or could not do right.

57:37

It's it's actually pertaining to someone what like I will not do this, right? So in the parable of the wedding feast that Jesus tells you chapter 14 the man who's unwilling to offer bread and Luke chapter 11 verse 7.

57:50

So these are examples of this very wasn't being he wasn't being physically restrained from offering bread.

57:57

He was yeah, he's not willing. He's like Jesus. Oh, I got I got married. I can't come right now, right?

58:03

I don't have the ability. No, you will not right. That's the point is that Jesus in that passage was intentionally withholding his miracle his miraculous power because of their unbelief.

58:14

Yeah, they they they rejected him. They despised him his own people those of his own household and he withheld the miraculous from them as a sign of his judgment upon them, right?

58:27

The Bible says that he was sent to his own his own did not receive him but to them who did receive him he gave him the right to become children of God. Yeah children not born of the flesh but one of the spirit.

58:34

It's almost as if Israel was about to be judged almost as if go figure.

58:41

So it's a perfect example of someone separating something from the context of scripture and then doing their preaching basically from the lexicon saying this is what that Greek word means instead of looking at the harmony of scripture.

58:53

What is the totality of scripture say about God's power and his sovereignty instead minimizing it down to this one verse and say well, this is what the lexicon says.

59:02

Therefore I'm going to teach this. Yeah, that's how cult start. Yep. Amen. Well, this has been a good and fast show.

59:10

Sorry, we're in an hour. I can't believe it. I'm going to I'm just going to share a quick example here as I close out our story.

59:16

I should say that I got from John Samson who he got from another pastor. I can't remember who he got it from but I think this was like an actual this actually happened and this man was preaching about the doctrines of grace a woman came up to him after service and was kind of upset and you know, it's like basically like why are you saying, you know, the gods like this like it, you know, as if like people are are knocking at the door, right?

59:39

They're knocking the door and they want in and God and God won't let them in. He said no, that's not what's happening. What's happening is

59:45

God's opening the door and there are people running as fast as they can away from God because they want nothing to do with them and he is reaching out grabbing them by the neck snatching him up and pulling him in and giving him regenerated heart.

59:58

So that's that's what scripture teaches and not what mr. Fertick has taught in this message.

01:00:03

So on that note, thank you everyone for watching. Thank you. Joy. Congratulations.

01:00:10

Don't mess this up Hunter. Thank you. Zach. Thank you, Daniel. Thank you.

01:00:15

All of our all access subscribers. You are amazing as always. None of this could happen or take place without you.

01:00:22

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01:00:29

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01:00:36

We can share them on our social media, but as soon as you start doing it, that's when we can have a bigger global impact, right?

01:00:42

Absolutely. Absolutely. So next week, we'll be back Jeff. We'll be back.

01:00:48

I don't know what we're going to talk about. We'll find out but we'll see you fun, right? Always see you guys next week.