Theosis- Why does the Bible call man gods? Truth in Love Podcast #theosis

Welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight. Tonight we are going to tackle an interesting subject called Theosis and it has a few other names to go with it. Do we become gods?

That's the question.

Stick with us. Welcome back to the truth and love podcast. I'm Rob. I'm Dan.

You think we should try to stick to around 30 minutes if we can tonight? I don't know. This is one of those topics where we should say as much as we can and when we realize that we are out of our league we should probably just end it.

Well thank you for watching the truth and love podcast. So Dan introduced me to this topic and it's it's related to what we brought up actually in the last laborers podcast because we were we were asking the question who is the God of this world looking at us second Corinthians and the the major consensus on labor's podcast that it was Paul was referring to Satan as the God of this world and so we I wanted to help us understand this language because most of us in the in the Western world and modern Christianity we're familiar with only using the the word or term God with Yahweh and it seems like through through Sunday school through Sunday sermons Bible studies this part of Scripture is skipped over we don't understand why Scripture why God in the Bible uses this terminology and calls other beings beside himself God's.

Yeah actually the the whole topics brought up in different ways all throughout Scripture it's it's really fascinating. Well if you if you listen to is it Michael Heiser who recently passed away he he did a lot of work on angels and he he brings out the talks about the word Elohim which he I think listening to him he would have he would concur and agree that in in Genesis it was beginning the Trinity but in other places where you have Elohim it was it was probably referring to Heavenly Council.

Sure. A group of people in heaven because Elohim is plural. Yeah yeah the the I am at the end of him is is the Hebrew way of saying something's plural so yeah and L meaning God so Elohim would be gods.

Yeah and so when we were discussing this on Labor's podcast and we were talking about who is the God of this world and and why the Lord would use that term for other beings I went I took us to Psalm 82 and that's where a lot of people go when they begin to start this discussion on Theosis they go to Psalm 82 and and you share with me 2nd Peter but Psalm 82 for I think that's where it works yeah 82 things in verse 6.

82 6 yeah I said you are gods and all of you are sons of the most high nevertheless you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes so and then he uses this Jesus uses this with the Pharisees and he says haven't you heard or you know haven't you read that you are gods.

You know he's speaking to the Pharisees and so we talked about how the Lord uses this term for other beings besides himself. Yeah in fact he's rebuking the Pharisees saying you know why why is it you know if the scripture cannot be broken and he calls them who are not.

You know the divine being you know Yahweh if you're not calling you're calling them gods but it's not Yahweh. Then why are you getting on me saying I'm the Son of God like you're not making any sense here right.

And so this out of this trying to tackle this idea and this is this is not a new concept from the things that I've listened to and read recently since you brought this to my attention this is terminology like this word theosis this is terminology and language and and subjects that our Christian fathers the the early church fathers wrote and and Paul can study now.

In fact it's been throughout most of history that it's been a big a big part of the Christian faith. One of the reasons I think we don't talk about it in the West too much is because of how Protestants got to to where they are today.

That sort of issues we dealt with with Rome the fight battles the theological discussions we're having we're over justification the inerrancy of scripture and sufficiency of scripture you know other things of that nature.

So we focused in on that aspect of our faith and we not ignored but we sort of neglected other doctrines because we were focused in on upholding the truth of these certain things. Now the Eastern Church the Eastern Orthodox Church didn't skip a beat.

That's one of their big main things is is theosis. We also may have heard it other words deification or divinization not divination. That's different. Divination is talking to dead spirits. Divinization is I wouldn't say gaining but uh like 2nd Peter says partaking in the divine or or the the Reformed or fond especially the early reformers were fond of talking about it as union with Christ.

Mm-hmm. And I heard one Lutheran he used the term I think he titled a book that he wrote. I think he pronounced it Chris Christ. Occasion justification. Yes. Yes. Jordan Cooper. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And if you're looking for a solid Lutheran dude go find Jordan Cooper.

We like him. As far as Lutherans go. Well you were talking about one of the reasons maybe why the the Western Church has dropped the ball on this subject and maybe I think this may be a legitimate reason why.

Why they have. Because it you you were talking about the doctrines that were being corrected and defended against you know that's why we had the councils to defend against these false teachings and stuff and so we had to focus on those those powerful things in the Reformation such as justification by faith alone you know scripture alone Christ alone and defend all these things.

And but when you get when you over here in the eastern world eastern part and you're with the Catholic Church the Eastern Orthodox Church and this these eastern churches and you have all these mysteries and mystical things happening that doesn't translate so well over to the West we it we seem to run into the other ditch just so that we make sure that we're nowhere near touching the waters we're not even putting our toes in the water of mystery and and mystical things because those things were popular in the Catholic Church in the Eastern Orthodox Church and still are and we just won't.

We don't even want to touch our toes in that water. I think you're right we ran from one ditch to the other we ran from you know. Well they're clearly going off the rails this way. So let's go so far to where we don't let mystery have any place.

But that's kind of silly because if you don't have any mystery about the thrice holy creator God of the universe that is higher than us whose ways we can't even comprehend then I mean you've you've reduced him down to something that he's just not.

If there's no mystery left in the Christian faith then you have greatly missed what the Christian faith is all about he is so much greater higher bigger and far beyond our capabilities of understanding.

If we think we've got it nailed down we have missed the point. Yeah I just I want to I don't want to come down too hard on the Western Church. Sure we had a reasons. Yeah we had a reasons that we've had theologians throughout all time.

I'm thinking about those those years those those centuries where things are just hard and and you have people traveling from Europe over here to the new world and you had to worry about surviving the night surviving the winter.

So there wasn't a whole lot of theological depth going into you know a lot of thinking. But despite that during that time there were still theologians you know active studying writing. So I don't want to be too hard on the Western Church.

Well and the things that they were able to that they were able to focus on we're greatly indebted to. So it's almost like you know because they they had to focus on certain things we get to to read and enjoy the fruits of those labors they have their blind spots.

But then again you think who's gonna think about what we're doing now years and years to come now we've got our blind spots to them. Like why were they thinking that that was just ridiculous. You're right.

And and they're gonna be indebted to us for the good work that we have done. Mm-hmm. You're right. Praise the Lord for them. Because we're able to live more comfortably now. And we're able to have theological discussions.

Or instead of having to worry about keeping our family warm and not freeze through the night during the winter you know praise the Lord where we are. But we do. So we brought up the topic. So I guess we we do want to touch our toes in this water of mystery.

And maybe some some mystical. Dan if we if we talk about this theosis thing are we admitting that the Mormons got it. Right. Do we become gods. Oh I wish you hadn't phrased it like that. I'll answer it in two parts.

There is a sense in which we are as scripture says that we can be called gods now. Big stop. Right. Not like the Mormons say not like the little gods doctrine coming out of the crazy charismatic movement.

Right. But in the way that scripture talks we can affirm those things. So what does that mean. No what is it. And I don't I don't. We'll put it this way. The early church Irenaeus Athanasius both of them they are fond of the saying it was something like this God became man talking about the incarnation Christ taking on human flesh coming being a part of his creation as as a man God became man so that men may become gods.

And you have to be careful there because and you're probably gonna say this but one of the guys I was listening to he's like back when he was using that phrase they understood what he was talking about.

Right. It's more accurate to say he was meaning we will become like God. And that's. And that's scripture. We were we scripture the Holy Spirit process sanctification leads us to becoming more like Christ.

That's the calling. But it's it's slightly more than that. It's not like we'll be similar to but we will be like God again. Gotta back up. Augustine said it like this. If you are adopted as a child into a family like say say that there's a child you love this child this child is great.

You adopt them you treat them as your own. They have all the rights responsibilities. They're heir to your fortune. You truly call them your son. You love them. They can call you father. They have all the rights responsibilities as an actual son that's born through that bloodline.

However if you go and test their DNA their DNA is not from that bloodline. They are not ontologically a part of that family even though they are treated as of though they're a part of that family. Which would mean this we are given through Christ and his work on the cross and his incarnation in his becoming man we are given the status of family in Christ so that we are said to be heirs with Christ.

We're going to sit on the throne judging angels with Christ. We have been given all sorts of incredible blessings. We've been granted access to fellowship with the Trinity that other parts of creation don't have.

Now that does not mean that we become a fourth member of the Trinity far from it. We don't gain divinity in that way. We are still only human. Yeah. But we are human redeemed bought and unified with our God because he is condescended and become like us and then brought us with him where he is going.

And that's incredible to think that that the righteousness that is his becomes ours the eternal life that he has becomes ours. His holiness is the holiness that we receive so that we like second Peter says second Peter 1 which I just preached on yesterday.

It was nerve-wracking. But to try to walk that line and encourage the Saints all at the same time. Is it on YouTube yet I think I believe so okay yeah but to say that we were partakers of the divine nature that we were given so many good gifts from God because of what Christ has done and brought us into union with him.

And that that's really what this all is all about the whole the whole doctrine of deification or theosis or union with Christ that that's what it's getting at. So how are we called gods. Well because the the image of God that was marred in the there was Martin and scarred in in the fall is being restored so that we truly do.

When people when creation looks at us they see God not because we ourselves are God but because we are made as image bearers of God. We are the the the carved images that we're not allowed to make in the second commandment for them we are the icons the true icons of of Christ to borrow from our Eastern Orthodox friends like you don't need to draw a picture of of a saint.

The saint themselves is the image bearer is the icon of God. And that doesn't happen because of who we are happens because of who what we've been made through Christ that we have had our sins forgiven adopted into into the family of God.

And yet Jordan Cooper's take on on theosis is it's very helpful for understanding all this. And and I'll take a break right here and and say this to everybody that's listening if this is falling hard on your ears it's falling hard on on my ears this is this is a deep philosophical area in Christianity that that many people don't dive into.

So it's hard for me to digest to comprehend and understand. It's hard to explain. And if my understanding is correct listening and reading the guys that that I have that you sent me they're saying that if you go back and read on this subject it's mostly talking about what the doctrines not the mystery is.

It comes into what it really is. That's where the mystery is. We can thoroughly define what it's not kind of like what we've been doing here. We don't become a God. We don't become God and become part of the you talk about union with Christ.

We don't have a hypostatic Union like Jesus has the hypostatic Union. But we are linked with him in a way that we're called his bride. Correct. There's part of the mystery right there. It says mystery in the Bible.

How we are linked with Christ as Christ's as a husband and wife. Yeah. And so it's. It's a one of those difficult doctrines. We're just saying hey we're taking a few minutes to dip our toes in these waters and trying to hear what Scripture has to say what history has had to say and make sure we're staying in the the boundaries of Scripture.

And you say well where is this in Scripture. Here's several verses. Galatians 220 it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. Philippians 121 for me to live is Christ. Colossians 33 we have died and our lives are hidden with Christ in God.

1st Thessalonians 5 23 may God sanctify you completely. For 2nd Thessalonians 2 14 we are called by God for the obtaining of the glory. For the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. The God doesn't share with anyone.

That's right. We've been called to the attaining of it. Mm-hmm. 1st John 4 17 because as he is so are we in this world. Wow. I mean how do you explain that. Yeah. Colossians 2 9 and 10 for in him of the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily and you have been filled in him who is the head of all rule and authority.

Mm-hmm. Crazy. Yeah. And and as a and there's other passages. You know we could keep going on and on with passages and we may we you know we may get to that some other time. Hold on. Elias has been blowing us up here.

That's what he says. Yeah. What is appreciate about reading the church fathers and modern scholars is that we just don't simply know Christ but we participate in that we're continually growing in dissipation and I only scratch the surface of this doctrine.

Absolutely. Yeah. This is one of those doctrines where you could major on it for a lifetime and scratch the surface of it. That's right. What was I gonna say. I saw Elias commenting and I lost. Right.

I'm trying to thought there you were reading Bible verses and I cut you off. Then he cut you off. You were up into the end of the Thessalonians. Yeah. We could we could continue to look at these all these Bible verses that talk about this mystery.

I remember what I was gonna say now. Um when I began to dive into this my whole Christian life once once I heard of the Wesleyan movement and once I heard of the Wesleyan movement then I'm again I heard of hear about Wesleyan perfectionism.

I I cringed at that because to me that's that was a really seems like a really prideful way to live that you could become perfect. And in a sense on one side of this which some scholars on this subject want to say it's it's not about morals but to a degree on one side of this it's but it's about becoming more like Christ.

And if you're coming more like Christ you're becoming you're becoming a more obedient. You're you're obeying God's law. You're a new creature in Christ. You're a new creature. There is there is a change that's right more like God.

And then on the on the far other side of this I've already touched on it. You're you're looking at the the missed mystery and mystical things that go on in the the Eastern and Eastern Church Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church back in the day you have stories like we were just reading before we went on air where you have some they call them Abba's fathers and they were encouraging their their disciples that it's it's more than just that but it's that they could.

There's a story of somebody melting snow and a story of someone's fingers glowing there. There's that mystery and mystical side of this whole thing that yeah I'm not ready to go there yet. But what do you have in Moses when he's up on the mountain and he participates in the divine nature he changes his nature changes and he shines.

So what do you do with that. Think of the resurrected Christ as he appeared places and moved. Think of think of Christ as he walked on water while he was before his death. If there's a sense in which it is going to be a little bit funky we're not gonna understand it right.

And oh yeah the incarnations huge in this the that's where the linkage starts that Christ is condescended to become man that that's why I remember when we were wrestling back and forth on Hebrews 2. Mm-hmm where.

Let's go there real quick. So I'll butcher it Hebrews 2 it quotes one of the Psalms one where it says what is man. That you are mindful of him or the son of man that you care for him you made him for you made him a little while lower than the angels you've crowned him with honor putting everything in subjection under his feet.

And parts of that Psalm sound like they're talking about mankind. But this is clearly saying that that this part of the Psalm is about about Christ now I think that the whole point is that that Psalm is talking about the union of Christ and his his church Christ and his people.

That mankind has been linked together with Christ in a way that when he was made a little while lower than angels he entered into humanity. And now we see him high lifted up. That high lifted up this of Christ is us going and sitting with him.

Mm-hmm. It's the only way that I can see that we are heirs with him judging the angels the Bride of Christ. It's all it's all linked together. There's like nine doctrines as you get to throw together in here and make a wonderful Theosis stew.

Well we're we're over 26 minutes in. How would you like to do a part two. Yeah. Let's let's do some maybe some more specifics. Okay. Okay. Well determine that off air. So we don't bore people now. But well in summation of what we've talked because tonight was a pretty good introduction so in summation and then we'll share the gospel and next Monday we have scheduled another pastoral ordination interview and then we'll come back to this the Monday after that.

So in summation of what we talked about tonight what can we leave ourselves with. Oh I'll tell you what I will give you a what we can leave yourself with and a gospel presentation all in one go for it.

Because like I said this is still fresh. I just preached on a passage related to this in yesterday. Second Peter 3 no 2nd Peter 1 verses 3 and 4 says. His divine power is granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

So what has the divine power of the Almighty God granted to us everything we need to be alive truly alive and to be godly. And how does that come to us. It says through the knowledge of him who called us so by knowing God who called us to his own glory and excellence or some some versions may say by the virtue of his own glory and excellence.

So what was it that called us to God. It was a divine power of God his glory and excellence that grasp the the dead and sinner and pull him toward God him or him or her. We believe in females being saved as well.

And it's through the knowledge of him by which by the divine power that gives us everything for life and godliness through the now the knowing him by which he's granted to us his precious and very great promises the covenant that he has entered into with mankind to save them from their sins.

So that what is every what does everything lead to that comes from those things so that through them we become partakers of the divine nature to be linked with Christ in such a way that you can partake of the divine eternal life his godliness his righteousness becoming yours as your sins are taken from you and thrown away as you're granted to to sit with Christ and to commune with with the Father and the Spirit as you are granted life eternal.

And it says this having escaped the corruption that is in this world because of sinful desire. The thing about union with Christ or theosis or deification or whatever you want to to call it is this the salvation is much bigger than just having your sins forgiven.

But that is the first step. The gospel is that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures he was buried and he rose again the third day. According to the scriptures he made that first step not only the first time he made all the necessary steps for our salvation and that he he took upon himself this our sins took them to the cross killed them laid in the grave for three days arose again granting to us his righteousness calling us to himself giving us good gifts sharing with with us reconciliation with the Father adoption of sons so that what we have is everything that we need for life and godliness found in Christ.

What is salvation. Then salvation isn't just having your sins forgiven. Salvation is gaining Christ himself is truly having a God and having him know you as well. And so in all of that it says it says this.

And that goes on talking about how you should add to faith virtue. And it goes on it says this. For in this way his divine power giving us everything we need for life and godliness. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

All that to say this Jesus Christ has died for sins and he calls to each and every one of us to repent of our sins to turn to him to look to him to find him to gain him because of his good and gracious love to us.

So I'm calling out to each one and here's my voice today to repent of your sins to turn to Christ to find him to be that perfect Savior not only for the forgiveness of your sins but an incredible union with Christ to where you are able to have things that you couldn't even imagine.

Not for your own benefit even though we do benefit greatly but for the glory of God in heaven that we can show through what he's made made us into partly now and then fully later on after after we pass that God is worthy of all worship and glory.

That is an incredible wonderful thing. That's what this is all about is glorifying God by showing him to the rest of creation. That's the whole reason why we why we would even be considered in the same realm as God because he has done for us to show his own glory to show his own goodness his own mercy and compassion and his love towards his own creation.

Let me close this up for father in in our mere mortal minds our sin depraved fallen minds we can't fully comprehend any of your doctrines that are in scripture. But these to us these huge ones like theosis theosis remind us of how huge and beyond comprehension you really are father help us to glory in these truths the glory in these mysteries that you are above us you are beyond us.

But you have so graciously given us your word that we may know you more so that we may know how to live the godly life that you called us to thank you for the conversation we had tonight. We want we desire that you be glorified in Jesus be exalted.

And thank you for the gospel. And thank you for the salvation that you offer to us in Jesus name. We pray amen. One more. Yeah I'm sorry I have more coming out of my preacher mouth. Here we go. If you are struggling with with as a believer if you're struggling with a sin if you don't know if you can break free from it or not back up a second.

If you're tempted in the moment I want you to remember this verse. His divine power is granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness. First Corinthians tells us that there is no temptation that has come upon you except what is common to man.

Look to Christ in everything to be that freedom from sin. If you if you're a drinker and you want to take that next drink think of Christ. And if you fail know that he has. You know repent of your sin and turn to him.

And know that that if if you're not finding the relief that you seek now that there's no other way to find life and godliness and define it in Christ. And if you have to keep battling until you finally reach glory then keep on battling.

Don't jump off the ship because the only way that you're going to find life and godliness is in Christ. If you're struggling anything look to him. Never turn away. What is it that Jesus said. He asked Peter a whole.

But he John 6 he just told a whole bunch of people were ticked off at Jesus. And leaving you said Peter you gonna go away. Peter said no. Where would I go. You have the words of life. Remember that that the only power you have to break free from sin to find the forgiveness of sin and to to make it in this life is to do so through the power of God.

So take that with you. Remember that the next time you're about to fight with your wife and don't do it trusting God. And and remember that that power for godliness is given freely by the one who sent his son to die on the cross for your sins.

There there you go. I'll save something for next time. But you just remind me of that old old camp song. What but others see Jesus in me. I don't know. I don't know if you're familiar with that old him but let others see Jesus in you.

Yeah all right. Praise the Lord. Thank you for that Dan. What an encouragement. I hope you were edified and encouraged. And we thank you for watching. Thank you for your support. And we'd appreciate all the shares and likes that you would you would offer.

We just want to join with you and learning God's Word and getting that message out. But in the meantime remember that Jesus is King. Go live in the victory of Christ. Speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.

Hope to see you soon. Look for part two.