October 23, 2018 Show with Timothy J. Fancher and Larry Parham on “Lessons to be Learned to Protect Your Church As We Remember the Sutherland Springs, TX Massacre at First Baptist Church One Year Later”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

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converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

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from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth

who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 23rd

day of October 2018 and I'm delighted to have both a

returning guest and a first -time guest on today together

to discuss a very important subject.

We have, first of all, Tim Fancher on with us today.

He is founder of Psalm 144 Church Protection Seminars

and American Street Edge Self -Defense Systems.

He's a fourth -degree black belt in American Kenpo Karate with over 30 years

of martial arts experience and he's a former police officer and a recognized expert in

church security, personal protection and children's abduction prevention

and it's my honor and privilege, first of all, to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Radio, Tim Fancher.

Chris, I'm delighted and honored to be here and just, you know, may the Lord continue to bless you and your show

and your listeners and that you're taking the time for such an important topic and, you know, for the second time in a year jumping in to

see what we can do.

To help people be safe, so thank you, sir.

And we also have joining us for the first time Larry Parham.

He is a Psalm 144 advisory board member and a police officer at

the Sedalia Missouri Police Department and they are both going to

be addressing lessons to be learned to protect your church as we remember the Sutherland Springs,

Texas massacre at First Baptist Church in that city one year later.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Radio, Larry Parham.

Thanks for having me, Tim, or I'm sorry.

I already screwed that up, huh?

Well, you were on, as you were both telling me before

the program launched, I know that, Larry, you met Tim when you were being interviewed

by him on his own.

Podcast years ago.

Yeah, and I think that was his habit of talking to Tim on the radio.

Yeah, good day, Chris.

I didn't mean to take over the show like that without even doing anything, but yeah, I had my own talk radio show

in Columbia, Missouri back in 2009 and Larry

would attend ORU and, you know, while I

was in Sydenham's when I got involved with church, you

know, some of Larry's caliber on the board to help out.

Great.

By the way, Larry, did I correctly.

Pronounce...

I can't even pronounce.

Pronounce.

Did I correctly pronounce your name Parham?

Parham, okay.

I should have went with my gut instinct on that.

It's spelt just like it's.

Pronounced.

Yeah, I think the further south you go.

Okay.

Well, first of all, Tim, I think it'd.

Be wise for us to tell our audience once again, even though this is your second

time on the program, there may be many people who are still unfamiliar with Psalm 144 church protection

seminars because we have, it seems, new people being added to our audience every single

day from all over the world.

So why don't you tell our listeners about Psalm 144 church protection.

Seminars?

Sure, and I think one of the most important things is to write off the bat what 144 is, and it's blessed be the Lord my

rock who prepares my hands for war and my fingers for battle.

And I would say that was a clear directive from the Lord that, you know, we are to take action, that we are to do things to

be vigilant, to be purposeful and tactical.

And I already mentioned ORU in seminary, but it was when I was in 2012.

In 2012, rather, a really small church had a number of credible threats that came in against them

due to a video they released that went viral.

And there's a bit of a story behind that, but in short, you know, there's not a lot of fourth -degree black belt former cops in

seminary.

I was friends with that family, and I got involved to help manage a threat, help them out.

And that Wednesday night, I just showed up the front door and just positioned myself at the front door and said, you know, someone's going to get the

threat toward two teenage daughters.

And I said, if we're going to go after them, they're going to have to go through me.

And that night I gave a crash course in security to the church at large.

And things that seemed really basic to me, they were really excited and scratching notes, and I started investigating

church security.

And I realized that there was a huge problem back then, and that most churches didn't have anything in place at all,

and they gave some of the excuses I'll be addressing throughout this show.

Or they went overboard, and there were all these, like, paramilitary -looking people running around, you know, just giving

off not only a sense of fear, but also they seemed very foreboding for someone to visit that

church.

The true tension that exists between standard security practices,

social psychology, theology, and criminology, and I set out to address that tension.

And I made 144, designing a program, and

the original idea I had in mind was just the sweet little pastor in the middle of nowhere, Oklahoma, who

knows nothing about bad guys, nothing about predatory behavior, a church that had minimal budget.

How can I help them to be safer without just promoting fear?

And so I designed that, and since then, you know, it's evolved quite a bit in the six -year

included active shooter training as part of that.

So I give a weekend -long training session that is set out to be theologically balanced, to be able to

build, create, and maintain a volunteer church protection team, again, to now include active shooter training.

Larry Parham, tell our listeners about why you became a

police officer to begin with, and also how you

became very interested in serving on the advisory board of Psalm 144.

Good thing it's a two -hour show, because why did I get in law enforcement?

Well, for starters, if

you asked me 20 years, if

you told me 20 years ago that I would be in law enforcement right now, I probably would have laughed at you.

I never thought—this was never my direction or anything like

that.

I truly believe that God got involved and kind of guided me to the

right—you know, that was—I had just

moved to Missouri, met

my wife here in Missouri, and I was lugging furniture around.

And then I started working for—kind of got me after

a while of talking with the inmates and being around the inmates and listening to their stories.

It really kind of—like, wow, that could have very easily have been me,

then

a gang guy that

knew about the

local gangs in these rural areas that are in our east from Kansas City.

So we get a lot of guys migrating from bigger cities to smaller towns, and that kind of became my thing.

That demographic of—never—my mother

had

police academy.

Try to save as many other people as I can was my

fuel.

Wow, well praise God for that, because obviously the odds were against

you as far as whether or not you would become someone involved

in the street crime surrounding you, and God preserved you from that.

And I'm very happy to hear that you are among those that risk their lives every day in law

enforcement.

And it's, I think, a tragedy that in the 21st century so much of the media

reveals the tension and even the hatred that many citizens throughout

the country have for those in law enforcement, when they—especially in areas where they themselves

depend upon it more than everybody else as far as remaining safe and so on.

And then, like, for me, being a black man and a police officer,

it's pretty tough nowadays.

Him starting his security, church security

idea, and I was—.

One thing before I forget to ask this later, before I go into more

questions specifically about the organization,

Psalm 144, Larry, there seems to be some

schizophrenia involved amongst especially those who are

politically on the left side of the spectrum in regard to the police.

On the one hand, they're always complaining that the police are

late in responding or ignoring the crime that exists among them,

and they basically are constantly, it seems, complaining that

law enforcement is not doing their job or law

enforcement officers are not doing their job adequately, etc., etc.

And then they, at the same time, they complain

when it seems that there is even necessary violence used

against criminals in their communities.

And on top of everything, those on the left, especially those in political power,

in spite of all this complaining that you hear from especially liberals and so on,

you hear that we are supposed to, as American citizens, not

be concerned about defending ourselves, but we are to rely upon the police.

In other words, that's why there is a major push that everyone knows by those on the left

in regard to gun control, and it seems oxymoronic, if you will.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Definitely.

And if you could just respond to what I said.

It seems like you can't win.

We're the referees of the community.

You go on a call, two people aren't happy about something, and we try to make a call one way or another, be

happy with that call.

So somebody's going to usually leave, wait until it's over,

eat as much as we can.

I try to get everybody to talk, and like, hey, can we problem -solve this?

And can't you guys work this out?

The police shouldn't have to be here.

But we get called out there, and we have to respond to that.

But then you're, why are you guys here?

You guys are harassing people.

We were called here.

We weren't just driving around and finding people

slowing down because of staffing.

We can't really get people to be cops anymore.

I teach at a police academy here in central Missouri that our numbers are down, and most

police academy numbers are down.

We've been short -staffed for a while, trying to get back to fully staffed.

We're going call to call.

Wow.

Well, let me go back to you, Tim.

Tell us about some of the changes that you are aware of that have taken place in church

security since the Sutherland Springs, Texas massacre.

In fact, why don't you remind us of the, basically give us a summary

of that massacre that occurred a year ago and why we

are remembering that today, a year later.

What Larry said, one of my hopes in having him on this show is, you

know, he said Sedalia is 20 ,000 people.

I mean, they have a lot of big box stores, a lot of things.

You know, my mom used to live close to there.

So it's not as small as it may seem.

I think that, you know, really big city people.

But my point is that, think about it from Larry's point of view, that he goes out and he deals with people who are mad at

him like this.

And then he tries to go out with his wife to have dinner or, you know, and that he

can never really truly let his guard down.

And that's what it's like for cops, because even in great big cities, they have their zones.

So they, you know, I get frustrated when people get so angry and nasty because

they sit down beside the, uh,

what appeared

to be a homeless man to just talk to him.

And the guy pulled out a gun and shot him in the head without a word.

Wow.

You know, I just, I would just understand that.

I know that's a cliche, but I think if you stop and think to yourself, Hey, if I wanted to go out and get a steak dinner, do I have to worry about

whether or not that waiter's got a steak knife on him or not?

Because I just dealt with him three nights ago.

And that, you know, and with this, the nature of this show, you know, I would ask people to remind them that

from first responders, lift them up in prayer, be

serious spirit

and that

people like Larry have to do it.

Yeah.

Well, we, uh, have.

Got to remember to keep those in law enforcement in our daily prayers.

That's for certain.

But, uh, if you could give us a summary about the Sutherland Springs massacre that occurred a year.

Ago, November 5th of last year.

And, and he, um, in the time,

since I talked to you last, I've, I've found out several

things that weren't

released.

And he walked

across

the

street

and gas station and he

walked in ever, ever blaming the victim.

And Larry can say this as a police academy instructor, that sometimes we have to go back and we look at where people

were victimized come

out

of it, been taught

was what they did.

They have the media because it

doesn't fit the

media

narrative

to the church

shooter, go outside while running, what

happened, which made

him then take off.

And then the other gentleman picked up

the older man and you

know, they, they wanted to get

out team in place.

You know, what I've said to people before is if there was a security team in place,

whether it was,

well, when

we come back, I want you to, uh, give us some examples of

how.

Changes in church security have changed or have occurred since the Sutherland Springs,

Texas massacre.

Uh, and we're going to, we're going to go to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarmson at gmail .com.

C H R I S A R N Z and a gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA, please only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter and obviously a, uh,

a program like this with a theme like this, uh, I could see itself being, I could see it being

lended toward those with, uh, uh, personal and private

matters, uh, in regard to this very subject that they might want to bring up, especially if they've been

victims of something like a church invasion or home invasion or

business invasion or any other kind of a crime similar to what we were discussing.

But if it's not a personal and private matter, you please, we would ask you to give us a first name, at least

your city and state and your country of residence.

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We are now back today with our guest, Tim Fancher,

who is the founder of Psalm 144.

And if you've been listening, you know that Psalm 144 is a church protection

organization that sets up seminars to help equip churches

to defend themselves from attacks, whether they be attacks of

local madmen or foreign terrorists, whoever that may be.

And in this day and age, with the left getting more violent in our own streets here in

America, with the rise of Antifa and other nuts that are wandering the streets

either threatening to physically harm those who disagree with them or

actually doing it, Psalm 144 church protection seminars

may prove to be very valuable to you and your congregation.

We also have Larry Parham on the program who is on the advisory board for Psalm

144 church protection seminars.

He's also a police officer at the Salladia, Missouri Police

Department, and we are discussing lessons to be learned to protect your church as we remember Sutherland

Springs, Texas massacre at First Baptist Church one year later.

And our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com, chrisorensen at gmail .com, that's c -h -r -i -s -a

-r -n -z -e -n gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And Tim, right before the break, I was asking you to give us a

summary of changes that you are aware of involving church security since the

Sutherland Springs, Texas massacre.

Yes, and you know,.

One thing I think is I'd like to do is just even back up just the times leading up to that and one of the

main points with this narrative about a couple things I'm about to talk about, by no way, shape, or form am I saying, oh,

woe is me, for some of the continued difficulties.

The point and the things I'm talking about are presumably the people that are listening are also,

you know, thinking this is a good thing and maybe wanting to talk to their churches, and one thing that is very important

is to paint a realistic view of the difficulties that they may

face, some of which are so absurd they may not even believe them until they encounter them.

But, you know, I mentioned that I started this back in 2012 and several times people who were close to me

were saying to me, why do you keep doing this?

Because I wasn't, you know, willing, I wasn't making any money, saying I was spending money doing it and, you know, I was continuing to

work and refine the seminars and contact people and I just kept saying because

it's needed and because this is what God has told me to do, there's no question in my mind that, you know, all these things I've done,

my college degrees, all my experience in martial arts, it all led up to having a very unique background, training,

and education to be able to do this.

When Settlement Springs happened, I had already been published by WFX Network, Worship

Security, I think I'd had six articles published, so already, you know, the credibility was getting there, things were starting to fully

turn around, and people were a little more receptive, but I was still running in

December, and then the day after

Settlement Springs, or and

I don't know if you remember this, but at that time, I actually was selling RVs, and I, you know, I was doing

that to pay the bills, and at night, I had some people I taught, you know, Street Edge Self -Defense to, and I was working on

articles of 144, but after your show and then Fox 23, the local affiliate, interviewed me

and covered a seminar that I gave a local church that had contacted me as a result of things.

I had so much interest in churches, I actually had to put on my Facebook page that I apologize,

it's going to take me a day or two to respond to everybody, and within a few days, I quit the RV job, yeah,

I quit the RV job, and I found a, you know, adjacent

to, one side of it is 144, and the other side is Street Edge, so I teach, you know, Street Edge Self -Defense to students

and work on 144, and I will say, I thought, okay, these objections and these problems I'm

having, surely they're over with.

When people look at what happened, and, you know, again, going back to the fact that the guy crossed the street in a

tactical gear, and then everybody hid, you know, as he just went down the pews masquerading them.

Tim, are you there?

Larry, are you there?

Well, I'm hoping that both of my guests...

I'm frustrated, as I was before.

I'm back to hearing a lot of the same old excuses and the same old reasons, and that was one reason I thought it so important to come

on the show and remind people that this evil exists, and one thing that I just respect so much about you

is you'll talk about what's happening with the left and with the TIFA and all these other things that are happening, and people are not

understanding that what's really true of this,

you need to have church security in place, so...

By the way, I don't know if you're aware of it, Tim, I don't know if you're aware of it, but you dropped off for about five

seconds.

Larry, are you still on the phone with us?

Yes, sir.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure, because there was dead silence on the other end for about five seconds, so I don't know why that happened, but I'm

glad that... I'm glad that...

Okay, I'm still here.

Yeah, great.

Well, I think we got most of what you said there, Tim.

We do have a listener.

We have a listener in Cork, Ireland, and I'm assuming this is especially

meant for Larry Perhamp, but Larry, she

said...

This is Mary from Cork, Ireland.

Hi, Chris.

I have the greatest admiration for the police.

My son, who is living in Carlisle, Pennsylvania now, was in the Garda police reserves in Cork,

Ireland for many years, and has this poem framed and hanging on the wall because he

understands the price a police officer has to pay, and as a mother, I

watched on.

And I'm going to read the poem that she shared with us, Tears of a Cop, Author Unknown.

I have been where you fear to go.

I have seen what you fear to see.

I have done what you fear to do.

All these things I've done for you.

I am the one you lean upon, the one you cast your scorn upon, the one you bring your troubles

to, and all these people I've been for you.

The one you ask to stand apart, the one you feel should have no heart, the one you

call the man in blue, but I am human just like you.

And through the years I've come to see that I'm not what you ask of me.

So take this bade and take this gun.

I think she meant to say, to write, take this badge and take this gun.

Will you take it?

Will anyone?

And when you watch a person die and hear a battered baby cry, then so you

think that you can be those things you ask of me.

Very moving poem.

Thank you, Mary in Cork, Ireland.

Thank you, Mary.

I was lucky to be able to do a lot of training in Chicago.

They have a big international gang conference there in

Ireland.

Met guys from Australia and, you know, a lot of

dogs are trained.

Praise God.

Well, what are some basic things that, Tim, that you want our listeners to have in mind in regard to this

whole subject?

Yeah, one thing I was going to talk about, I definitely will want to touch on.

One of the biggest changes, of course, is the active shooter training and the absolute need for it and some of the key distinguishing features.

But one thing I just wanted to just get back to, that still does happen.

And so, you know, you'll have the people who just are almost offended by the idea of

church security.

And that's, you know, a different conversation.

But a lot of times people are just overwhelmed.

They feel like it's this big giant monster.

And I use that term because it was two years ago, I was

in a pretty rough part of west of downtown Tulsa, and they had a lot of problems.

And we were talking for about 15 minutes, and I already, you know, said two or three little things that could be done.

And a woman, out of nowhere, he just reached over and swatted me on the knee and was like, Tim, you're answered prayer.

And I mean, you know, when a pastor says that, it's cool and all, but, you know, it's kind of, you stay thinking, you keep talking.

And I started to do that.

But he realized what I was doing.

He goes, no, hang on.

He said, I'm being literal.

He said, you're answered prayer, security in

place.

And that's when he said monster.

And we didn't even really know how to get started.

And he said, in 15 minutes, he said, you've given me tomorrow.

That's a clear path to it.

You know, and that's why with what I do, it's an extremely intense weekend.

I mean, most times by the time I'm coming back home on Sunday, I've lost my voice and I hurt all over.

I can be done.

But there's little things that can be done as well.

And that's one thing that I really want to encourage people about.

But it must be intentional, purposeful, and tactical.

One of the worst things that I hear, and Larry and I had a couple of messages before,

what I just called a paper tiger team, where they say, oh, we've got some guys watching the door.

You know, that's one of those, the intent is, you know,

because then you have that false sense of security.

And one really simple thing, it goes off what's called a broken window theory, which is a

sociological study from the 70s, where they parked a brand new car in a really high crime area, I believe it's New

York City, and nobody touched it.

And then the next night, they broke out one small window.

And by the morning, the car had been totally stripped.

And the idea is that once there starts to be some elements of disrepair and neglect,

it actually attracts more crime.

So, you know, that's why I tell churches, if you, if it's July and your sign out front,

you know, just targeting a

church and breaking into going in, you know, shooting people up, you know, trying for

kidnapping, any sort of all the nightmare stuff that literally keeps me up at night.

Something like that can attract their attention because if they're not taking care of the little things, they're

not taking sharp look to it with

the black blazer, the radio, and the name tag, and he's looking

around, and he has that proper balance of command presence and visible deterrent, they're going to look at that church and be like, Nope, not that

church.

They're taking care of business.

Well, if you

could go through some major things that that may sound even

like.

Minor things on the surface, but are actually major things in regard to keeping people safer in a church,

things that your average pastor, elder, deacon board, or church member may overlook.

Well, one of the first things I say, and I always say go top down with this, and it's what I started to specialize

in, is minimizing church flow disruption.

What I mean by that is, you know, when I was in seminary, I visited a lot of churches, even though I had

my home church, I still visited a lot.

And because of what I do, and I even have taught, you know, the three -edged self -defense system classes in

churches.

So I've visited a number of churches.

They all have their own way of doing things.

They all have their own church flow.

Every church is different.

And the thing is, the biggest problem in security, and really, this is one of the ways

that church security is like other security disciplines, is it's very easy to get an us -versus -them mentality.

Your whole church security team shut down before it starts, is if someone goes in and they don't

understand church, they don't understand just the way things are done, and they start putting a bunch of systems in place

that unnecessarily interrupts, you know, the way things

are done, and there's no real reason for it, it's going to get shut down.

Because the moment you

make it in

place, it's so important.

But, you know, as far as address code, which is just what I

said earlier, you know, Slack, radios are not that expensive.

And then a name badge that will say, you know, XYZ Church, Church Protection Team Volunteer.

And that's the key in everything I'm saying here.

What I teach is to build a team that's a volunteer team from the congregation, which is the absolute best thing

that you can do.

But then whenever you have people that have assigned zones, and they understand what those assignments are, and they have

radio discipline, and then they're looking like, you know, they're trying

to intimidate or bully them, all those things lend itself to the

congregation.

The address code is important.

Having zone assignments is important, and making sure that people understand what their roles are.

Because they were having some active problems, and I was looking for really short,

I said, you know, you can go and you can get a car door magnet made for 15 bucks, and get someone with a late

model sedan, or, you know, a big truck, which is definitely not an issue in Tulsa, but put on their

XYZ church, slap that on that truck, and then park it by the main entrance.

When people walk in or drive in, they're going to see that.

So even if they don't really truly have a team in place yet, that can be the beginning.

And when it's showing, hey, we're watching over our flock, you know, we're keeping an eye on things.

So, you know, those are some of the little things that can be done.

But again, it comes to making sure to be trained and understanding

your roles.

Now, there may be people who just love the idea,

I'm talking about church members, who love the idea of being looked

upon by the congregation as somebody, as an authority figure, that they love the idea of wearing a

jacket and a badge, and maybe even having a decal on their truck

or their car.

But we have to, I'm assuming, that we have to make sure that people who are volunteering for

critical roles in church safety aren't just people who will be of no

use whatsoever, other than the fact that they're wearing a badge and they think that they look cool or look important.

Don't they have to need some kind of basic skills?

Or what do you think about that?

What are...

You know,

that's when people just say, can you send me a bunch of free

information?

And besides the fact that, well, this is how I'm making my living, but more importantly, you know,

you can't just read articles or just

give them probably no lessons.

You have to get rid of them.

So we talk about that constantly, that if you've got someone who's going to escalate, and

things to be careful of.

And one of the easiest things is telling people, you know, just be careful of the younger guys.

And that there should be...

There needs to be an interview process.

It shouldn't be as easy as, hey, I want to be part of Canada Radio.

That, you know, there's...

It should come down to, you know, intent.

Like, what...

Why are you wanting to do this?

But then, you know, beyond that, there needs to be the training and how to deal with the different scenarios.

And this ties in enough to give this...

Important things that I tell people is no

other discipline of fit me to be theologically balanced.

Sample idea, security for...

And Monday morning, then, and he's in dress

clothes with all wrinkly.

He's all sweaty.

He's agitated.

His eyes are darting everywhere.

And this is a business environment.

Most of them in charge, you clearly don't belong here.

And if I go up there, have only called command presence, no question about it,

which, yes, is somewhat of an aggressive look.

Hours before that same guy looked at the exact same way, walked into a church,

and he walked up like that.

If he'd been drinking the last three days because he found that his wife was cheating on him with his boss.

And he was going to go down the bridge and jump off of it.

But he decided the last second, I'm going to pop in this neighborhood church and see if anyone has something to say to me.

What's going to happen that if the untrained guy makes that kind of approach to him?

What I say is not only we probably just lost a life, we probably lost a soul because I'm doubtful that he knows Christ in

that situation.

I don't know.

But my point is, you can't approach in a church the same way you would in a

warehouse or a nightclub or a business office.

And those are the things that come with proper training.

And that's the theologically balanced approach that is so critical in understanding.

We have to go to our midway break right now.

This is a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida

requires of us every day a longer break in the middle of our show because they have to localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida by airing local commercials and public service announcements.

So please be patient with us as we take this longer than normal break.

Use this time wisely and write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and

more successfully patronize them.

Because we depend upon our advertisers to stick around and continue sponsoring

this program because their financial support is

required for us to remain in existence.

So the more you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they are going to continue advertising.

So please write down the information that our advertisers provide.

But also take this time to write down questions for our two guests today.

That would be Tim Fancher and Larry Parham.

As we continue our discussion on lessons to be learned to protect your church as we remember the Sutherland Springs, Texas

massacre at First Baptist Church one year later.

Our email address to send in questions is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back right after these messages.

Tired of box store Christianity?

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Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS

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I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of

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Have a great day.

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James White here, co -founder of Alvin Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm so delighted.

My friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th

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We'll all be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme, A Biblical Understanding of Missions.

Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Bodhi Balcombe, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe,

Phil Johnson, Josh Weiss, yours truly, and many more.

I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event.

For more details, go to g3conference .com.

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Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

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Consultations are free.

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Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Shepard's Iron Radio.

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We just have a few announcements to make in regard to special events that are coming up that we want you to

attend before we return to our guests.

First of all, coming up very soon, November 9th and the 10th, the QuakerTown Conference

on Reformed Theology returns to the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of QuakerTown, Pennsylvania,

and the theme is The Glory of the Cross, and the speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson,

and Carlton Nguyen.

That's November 9th and the 10th at the QuakerTown Conference on Reformed Theology being

held at Grace Bible Fellowship Church, QuakerTown, Pennsylvania.

If you want more information, go to the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website, alliancenet

.org.

That's alliancenet .org.

Click on events and then scroll down to QuakerTown Conference on Reformed Theology.

Then coming up in January, from Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January

19th, the G3 Conference returns to the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park,

Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

The theme this January is The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions, and

the speakers include Dr. James R. White, John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Vody

Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Tim Chalies, Phil Johnson, Josh

Bice, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J. Nichols, the

president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many, many more

are on that roster of speakers.

I would strongly recommend that if you have a church, a parachurch ministry, or a business that you want to promote

at this conference, that you also register for an exhibitor's booth, just like the one I

will be manning for the third year in a row, because they are expecting between four and five thousand people

at the G3 Conference.

By the way, that stands for Gospel Grace and Glory, if you're wondering.

And so if you would like to attend this event, and if you'd also like to register for an exhibitor's booth, which I

strongly recommend if you have a church, parachurch ministry, or business that you want to promote, then go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com.

Last but not least, oh yes, let me say one more thing about the G3 Conference.

There is a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference on Wednesday, January 16th.

So if you have Spanish -speaking and bilingual friends, you should let them know about that edition of the

G3 Conference, entirely in Spanish, Wednesday, January 16th, at the Georgia International Convention Center,

College Park, Georgia.

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Never do that, and never put your family in financial jeopardy when you're giving to... when

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Supporting Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio is obviously not a command of God, but if you love the show and you don't want it to go away and you are

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If you'd like to advertise with us, we depend upon our advertisers to survive as well.

So if you have a church, parachurch ministry, business, or special event that you want to

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As long as whatever it is you desire to promote is compatible with what we believe here on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio,

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So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

That's also the emailing address, I should say, to send in a question to our guests, Tim Fancher and

Larry Parham.

If you have a question about protecting your church, as we remember the Sutherland Springs, Texas

massacre at First Baptist Church in that city one year later, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the good old

USA.

And if you could, Tim and of course, Larry chime in whenever you'd like to

by continue giving us more very practical and

helpful tips that might save lives either in our churches or

even in not only that, maybe perhaps our schools in our own homes as

home invasions become more prevalent.

What are some of the things that are practical that every church can

participate in?

Yes, and before the break, you know, we were talking about some of the questions and one

thing I definitely want to be able to explore and get Larry's thoughts on is active shooter training, but

I was saying that I'm admitting that's

rolling back around and that's just one thing that I just I'm telling

churches and I know it's not politically correct to be as blunt, but it's irresponsible to have

a security team in place if nothing else is thinking about the children.

But you know, what I was saying so long, the days of debate needs to be over, but

that when it comes to where I give people an almost apologetics approach to why

we need church security, but if someone says we don't

need church security because nothing's ever happened to us, I'll say, have you ever died in a car wreck?

And I said, then why do you wear every single day to keep us safe?

And you know, and the idea of a church saying we don't have security, my next question,

you know, here in Tornado Alley, do you have a tornado plan?

Of course they do.

But people want to deny violence.

They don't like the idea that there's evil people out there who wish to do them harm and they're not recognizing what's

happening right now with the media narrative and with the divide in this country, their Christians are increasingly

being seen as viable targets.

But, you know, before I talk about that, just as far as active shooter training, that's one of the biggest changes.

I had not offered that up until it was actually July of last year.

I began and after a year and a half of work, I

formally launched it, you know, in spring of this year, run, fight, survive, active shooter training was part of it.

But there's a saying, and I'm sure Larry says it 20 times a day when he's teaching, you revert to your training in a crisis situation.

And the idea that you can have active shooter training and just sit and watch a DVD and then whenever you hear

bam, bam, bam coming, that you're going to react is nonsense.

You have to do physical drills.

You have to be able to, you know, have the drills with the shooter coming in in your church.

You know, those hallways, you know how to, how to, and what I say is you bury

and you don't say hide because that's what happened there.

And then we go through, you know, the reality of what's going to happen when that shooter makes entry if you can't get out of there.

So that has just got to be

done.

You can't deny it, even if it's an unpleasant thing.

You know, churches need to have that kind of training and to do the physical training just one more time sitting and

watching a DVD.

And when you actually hear those gunshots, that's the only training you have is not going to do you any better good at all.

And our departments now

are doing active shooter trainings at least once a year on a grander scale.

But now talking to school resource officers throughout the country, they're, they're

telling me about schools now having so like tornado drills, this

whole

hiding thing.

I mean, when my sons are growing

or something like that, if he comes in

that fight mode, if you got to take your compass,.

Your pen,.

Try to get everybody else motivated.

We got to win and get out of here.

When we do drills, I survive.

It's just that one.

And we have the difficult conversations up to including if you can run away and you have someone who,

man, you're just going to have to make that decision right there because that's, you know, that has definitely happened when you read the case studies of

these things.

But that's why you must have physical drills because when I've been

a student in the training and then as the instructor, I've seen both sides of it where everybody,

they, there's different things that I do to replicate the stress, including noise, things of that nature.

And they get that heart rate up and they start to suffer some of the physiological and psychological effects of fear on the body.

If you don't understand that, the first time it happens to you, you're not going to deal with it properly and you're probably going to die.

So, you know, that's what I talk to people about.

That's why there's such high stress drills.

But you'll have to have that, just like Larry said, you're going to have to have that conversation with the room and the

books.

You've got this limb, you've got this limb, you've got the head, you know, you're back here.

And even looking at, you need to be dead silent in that room.

And if you've got somebody who's crying uncontrollably or screaming and they won't stop,

you may have to knock them out.

And heat and sound, there's

no light.

You can look back on it, they'll move to a different classroom, they'll move to a different part of the church,

or in the water.

So those are the reasons you have to have physical drills because that sort of stuff doesn't just come up with DVDs.

And that's all part of that, of the critical nature of having that kind of training for churches.

We have a question for Officer Parham from Ronald in Eastern

Suffolk County, Long Island.

And he says, I don't know if the laws are different from state to state, but when

is it legal to open fire upon an intruder in a church who is armed?

Does he have to make some kind of vocal threat or can he be merely be pointing the weapon

and so on?

And there may be very tragic circumstances that arise when a

church member may illegally harm or kill such an intruder.

Can you give us some advice?

Oh, yeah.

But like here in Missouri, Missouri, you can open carry and you can conceal carry without going

to CCW classes.

So Missouri, I mean, we got a lot of people around town that just, you know, they have guns out.

But so a lot of times we'll get a phone call about, you know, hey, this guy's walking

by the highway.

Like, well, is he doing anything with it?

No, he's just walking.

Okay, well, that's not illegal.

Now the minute he pulls it out and starts pointing at somebody, now that's a threat.

I would take that as a threat if somebody walked in the church and he's got a gun holstered or something like that.

I don't know what the laws are in Long Island, but if he pointed at me, I'm going to

take that as a threat.

So even if he carries a semi -automatic weapon, a large weapon like that in his arms into a

church building, that isn't enough because if it's legal for him to do that,

you cannot, I'm assuming, shoot a person if it's legal.

But if he makes some kind of an announcement, I'm going to kill everybody or Christians must die or something like

that, is that...

I would take that as a threat.

So then you could shoot a person when he says something like that.

That's with your local areas.

Him carrying it but making it...

I'd be getting mine out if I had a gun with me.

Right.

I'd be getting it out.

Yeah, it is a tricky situation to know what the law is.

I'll give you an example.

Wasn't anything that dramatic, but years ago, my

late wife was driving in her car in front of me.

I was following her and a car got in between us that was

being driven by a drunk driver.

And when my wife stopped at the stoplight, he slammed into the back of her vehicle.

I got out of my vehicle and the guy rolled down his window and he was

obviously drunk.

And he was saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Please don't call the police.

Let's try to settle this right now between us.

And I called 911 and I said to the 911 operator,

there's a drunk driver who just slammed into the rear end of my wife's car.

We're at a traffic light.

Can I hold onto him or pull him out of his car to make sure that he doesn't flee the scene?

And they told me, no, I could not do that.

Sure enough, he drove away.

He backed up and turned around and drove away.

So I don't even know if the operator was right on that.

But it is a tricky situation to know what the law is ahead of time on certain

circumstances like that.

Yeah, you research it state to state, but, you know, because some are still, you can make a citizen's

arrest.

We get as much information.

If he does leave, he's leaving this way down the road.

I get his license plate number and give that out and we can track him down.

You know, now a fight starts.

Now you start getting into the German

and then he didn't

and things went.

Yeah, just

somebody down the road or something like that.

Yeah, well, that was my thought.

Yeah, and you know that that's the tricky part.

It's like you don't want him to go in there.

Everybody is safe.

We can we can track him out and I don't know how big an area you

can get there in that.

But as far as the main theme that we're addressing, a church invasion, preventing

a church massacre and so on.

You see a guy walk in with, especially with a

semi -automatic weapon or a large weapon, other than, you know, in an area where people are commonly wearing

pistols and a holster.

That's one thing.

You might have your own pastor who does that.

But if somebody walks in and it's out of the ordinary, obviously you see somebody carrying an automatic weapon.

What are the folks to do?

Are they are the deacons or whoever you have in charge of security to surround that person immediately?

I mean, these are situations where a split second can mean the matter of life and death.

When Tim will start with you and then we'll Larry, you can follow up.

Well, and this ties into, you know, what

official 144 recommendation.

But, you know, in addition to Larry and the other men that are listed on my site, I have a

high -ranking federal agent that I can't give his name who's on the advisory board.

And then I've got a anti -terrorist military police officer who's on the advisory board.

I talk with everybody with 100 is when I go into a church, my

recommendation is that only

church leaders should carry firearms on the

premises and they should be concealed on top of that.

The other caveat is that the active shooter or the target,

but they've got someone screaming in their ear, that sort of thing.

And that's all part of that vetting and that training.

It says no firearms beyond this point to a criminal.

That's just, you know, that's like putting candy out there.

So I have a folder I leave behind after the weekend seminar.

And I got that out and I give to

duty law enforcement and trained and authorized church protection team members and approved

staff are permitted to carry weapons to be on this point.

You make that as a small sign.

Um, you know, grandma Smith won't notice that, but the bad guy will.

But when people come home in Missouri, when I'm saying

you can't, I don't recommend letting brother Smith carry his firearm if he's not part of the team.

And when someone gets mad, I don't get to have anyone answer the question, are you

carrying?

Single congregation members wearing that

bullet goes right through the drywall

and blows up a baby in the nursery.

What the?

So, you know, that's my hand, which is why, you know, why I give that recommendation of

only the church protection team members upper training.

And then once that's put into place, the church needs to follow their own communication protocols to get that out to the entire

congregation.

Now, you

know, crazy ammunition pull out and just start.

It's going to be at times I use the word trained and training,

you know, that this isn't just, OK, you carry, you're on the team, you carry, you're on the team.

But, you know, coming together and really getting this into play, because there's that's, you know, that's one of the most important things.

It's the thing that's, you know, the most stressful in setting all this up for a new church.

Well, what about the church that does not yet have the security team?

I'm assuming that you would believe that everybody that owns a firearm should be trained in it,

the trained in its safe use and so on.

Well, here, you know, again, it goes back to

the ammunition side of it.

That that is definitely a concern of mine.

What kind of training does this guy have?

But, you know, the other thing is when I talk about 144 is theologically balanced.

Larry mentioned in Missouri now that they don't have to have CCW training, concealed carry weapon training.

So people can go out, you know, by gun and just concealed or have it on their hip.

Well, my mom is outside St. Louis, and

last year, the first time I went to visit

her, really enjoyed it.

I think they have about 200 people in there.

So it's a pretty good sized church.

And what happened was we went in there and the back of my mind was that laws in effect.

So I already knew that there could be a lot of people with zero training

that I liked.

And I was writing down a note and a sentence that I was writing out.

And so when I looked up,

how many guns are around?

The rest of the trip thinking that.

And then I just started thinking in my mind, and this feels

very uninviting to me, not having any idea what the firearm policy is in this church.

And I would need to have a conversation with the pastor about and I wouldn't feel comfortable going there again.

Now, that's just me.

You know, with what I do, I look at things that people probably would

congregations.

And just finally, when I was selling cars, I ended up I was a pastor and his wife and I told him about 144.

This was a couple of years ago.

He said, you know, I'm still doing this part time and hope to do it full time.

And she's like, honey, everyone in our church carries if someone came to their cause in trouble, we'd fill them full of holes so quick.

I mean, you know, there needs to be on

those are

going to open up on them.

But but but having said.

All that,.

I'm assuming that you believe that every church should have someone who is

trained and more than adequate in using a firearm to be

carrying that firearm.

And even in plural form, those people should be in every church that are there to protect

from an intruder,.

Violent

person with, you know, military or law enforcement or, you know, in

our instructor, there's always a part of my program.

And I can't possibly give you a perfect security plan and anybody that says they can is full of it.

You know, that's one of the things, two of the most important things about a proper team is that when they're volunteers, it's heart

and intent.

You you cannot train that with someone, the person who loves the church so much that they're going to take the

time to be a part of that and realize that that haven't worked

that.

But my point is that what I say to them is in

predator behavior, I can teach you body

language.

I can teach you how to make that out of things in one

weekend, but you're still not going to be ready.

But now you have the tools to come together, look at your church flow and now your team can start coming together.

You can start training, go out to the farm range together.

The local, I say, come get some street edge lessons from me, you know, but wherever you are, continue with that training.

But then what I say is, so what is I

know to you to get those guys together, get those guys and ladies together as

two people who are interested,

who said, I want to do this.

Here's my training.

And then just like they're supposed to do, they're in charge of training.

And then they can get everything together.

But I tell people, all of this can be done in

the range.

I mean, even here locally, I have it.

I have a 30 year place,

you know, so there's

a thousand dollar process to get, you know, security in place.

Patients about it, intentional.

And by the way,.

I'm from originally from Long Island, New York.

And I would imagine that there were a lot of churches that don't have a single person armed in

places like that where gun laws are a lot stricter than other places.

Oh, let me give you an example.

After moving to Pennsylvania, where it seems everybody has a gun,

the it was, it was like an eye opener to me.

I went to a convenience store, like a 7 -Eleven type place with my friend and his daughter,

who is in her 20s.

And she went up in front of me to purchase something.

And when she leaned over her shirt rose up a little bit in the back and

she had a gun.

Stuck back there.

And it startled me because I'm from Long Island, New York.

And if I saw that in a 7 -Eleven, I would have immediately thought, oh, this person's going to hold up the 7 -Eleven.

In Pennsylvania, it's like nearly everybody is carrying a gun.

So I just, I just thought I'd add that because you were saying that you don't know of any church

that you've been in where there wasn't people carrying firearms.

I don't know if that would be the case in some of the more liberal cities across the country.

Well, I was going to qualify that and go ahead and do that to the next part because I know I'm in, you know,

flyover country, every gun on every hip.

And so then what I would tell them is I'm not

giving legal advice one way or shape or form, but find out if tasers are allowed.

You know, the odds are still up that it can be, it can be handled

without firearms.

So, you know, we're talking about the worst of the worst, the active shooter sort of things.

But, you know, so that's one thing.

And just, you know, get martial arts training that's defense and, you

know, things of that nature.

So we're at gun

laws so we're then receiving,

you know, martial art training.

Again, you know, the idea is the difference between, you know, security and law enforcement is

when people call Larry when the security deters

someone who's looking to do a targeted attack.

So, you know, that's why I would just tell people just to take heart.

All right.

We have to go to our final break right now.

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Iron.

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For am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

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If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

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Have a great day.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Our guests today for the last 90 minutes and the next 20 minutes to come have been and will continue

to be Tim Fancher, founder of Psalm 144 Church Protection Seminars and

also Larry Parham who is on the board at Psalm 144 and he's also a police

officer at the Sedalia, Missouri Police Department.

We are addressing lessons to be learned to protect your church as we remember the Sutherland Springs, Texas

massacre at First Baptist Church one year later.

Our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air of the question is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com and if you'd like to send in a question do so now because we're rapidly running out of time.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York who says, the problem I

see with the scenario of requesting if not insisting that all the

members of their church not be armed during worship services except for those

selected few who are involved in the security is that it may become known to

criminals that there is a storage room where all of these firearms are being collected.

How do you respond to this possibly very dangerous situation where criminals may come to the church

just because they know that there are a large number of firearms stored in some place in the church?

Absolutely no way should you get a

dedicated safe.

And they're basically going, okay, there's trained people with guns and there's angry people who don't have guns and now I'm going to take them

from them.

I just, I don't see that.

I mean, I very much appreciate the question.

That's what's so important is having these conversations.

But I don't see that as, you know, a likely scenario.

But I definitely don't suggest the church take on the liability of being the one to store

their firearms anyway.

Well, I mean, if you're saying that though, then obviously there are going to be a lot of unarmed people going

to church.

They're going to be leaving their homes without carrying their

constitutionally guaranteed right to bear arms.

They're going to be leaving their homes without that protection.

So I can understand and those people who always want to have that firearm with them,

that may result in some...

That's why I always say this is upon by the board, but it's

ultimately going to be up to the pastor.

But I just mean, as far as, you know, that's another thing that also shouldn't even be advertised as far as

at that point, are they saying keep them in your car?

Are they saying keep them at home?

But the point is still that if that sort of thing is made known public, then it's also being made known public

that they have an armed church protection team there.

So, you know, so that I think will help to offset some of that concern.

Okay.

We have Bibi in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, I'm sorry

if I missed something, but what kind of signage would be best to use

outside of your church to frighten criminals from even considering entering in your

church with evil motives?

Well, the only time I had mentioned was the one that, the thing that, you know, concerns me is when someone says

no firearms beyond this point, because then it can suggest that there's, you know, nobody with any weapons of any kind.

So, you know, so I gave the wording that I recommend, and that should be on a small sign, because, you know, I

don't want to necessarily even think of frightening.

I want to think of, like I said before, the taking care of business, that they look and they see a sharp church,

sharp grounds.

They see, you know, the visible deterrent, but not someone who's looking like they're deliberately menacing, which

can not only project fear, but like I said, the theological standpoint, someone from

visiting the church, because that might in fact make them nervous.

You're talking about, I'm sorry if I misunderstood something, but are you saying a church should not,

in your opinion, have a sign that says, this church is guarded by armed security?

You're saying that that is not a good idea?

Well, I don't think that, I don't think that a sign like that's necessary.

If you've got, you know, you have someone who, what I refer to as zone one, the parking lot is their area.

So, and the term the court is visible deterrent, so they should be able, they should see that there's

somebody out there, you know, in security uniform, but the

traditional executive protection look.

Right, right, I understand.

I think they're much more likely to, yeah, notice an individual than a little sign, but I was just saying

that sign, letting people know what their firearm policy is, I had just suggested the wording not

suggest that nobody has a firearm beyond this point, because I never see that as a good idea.

Okay, and give us some of the deeper sociological reasons behind the shootings

to begin with that occur in churches and schools and other places.

Well, and you know, my concern moving forward is just

with some short on time, but if you define mass shooting

as a single out of 61 so far this

year, and according to Carl Chen, who's amazing and a mentor of mine, the final

numbers for 2017, there were 118 violent deaths, homicides, suicides, and

killed in action in one year in churches in America.

That is the worst violence ever seen concerning faith -based organizations.

So you look at those numbers wide in this country and I

just came across something yesterday that Breitbart has been tracking violence from the left.

As of yesterday, there've been 613 acts of media -approved violence and harassment against Trump.

Investors .com reported that a leftist threatened to commit mass slaughter to make America great.

I've been at Trump's hotel in D .C. and he said, on his train with a gun, and I expect to get

numerous blood -stained mugga.

In my presentation, I give about a 20 -minute presentation on how Christians are being

portrayed.

You have someone who is in the entitlement culture.

They make a song in their parents' basement and it's not a number one hit.

And in this negative way, as

uneducated, bigoted, etc.,

how the

media portrays somebody like that may not only think, oh, wow, I can go

out and get myself famous in one afternoon, but you know what?

I'm gonna be a fool for people who deserve it.

This narrative.

And that's what I've been jumping up and down, screaming to people about and why churches training is

necessary.

November 5th, the media's gonna be talking about Sutherland Springs, but they're not gonna be focusing on the victims and on

the heroes.

They're gonna be talking about the shooter.

And depending on what happens with that, there might be a whole lot of people who are very upset.

I've just been telling people in my circle, just be a little bit more on guard than normal, even at

your holiday events and kind of far more in the news

during the holidays.

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York says, I heard you say something about theologically

balanced, but I'm not sure how theology enters into this.

That's a good question if you didn't hear your whole program here.

One thing that I can immediately think of is that I think that there are many people who are either Christian or professing

Christians who aren't in reality Christians, but there is a huge

misconception about turning the other cheek.

Some people think that they, in order to be faithful followers of Christ, they need to be

targets, willing to just be shot and killed without any

kind of defense of themselves or their spouses and children, which I think is an unbiblical

concept and a dangerous and heretical one, actually.

Right, absolutely.

And what I'll do, there's not time, so when you listen to the podcast

where I gave the example of the man coming to the business office versus church, that's the strongest

example I have, but it was published by WSX.

It's called A Biblical View of Self -Defense in a Time of Terror, and I talk about that, and I give scripture and so forth, and I'll just

put a link to that article on the Iron Sharpens Iron Facebook page, and I think that will hopefully

help answer that gentleman's question.

Yeah, one thing that you gotta remember, there is even a very well -known person whose name I'm not going to mention because I don't have his quote in front of me,

and I don't want to misquote him.

Very famous people who I highly regard and respect in other areas of his thinking and

teaching and doctrine and theology, but he basically said that he would never stop

with deadly force an intruder in his home who was even brutally attacking his wife and children,

because if he killed these individuals, they would certainly be in hell judging by their behavior.

My problem with that, my serious problem with that, is that not only is he not being a protector of his

home the way he should be, as I think the Bible would command him to be, but he's also giving

those killers or those criminals the opportunity to harm other people and send them to hell

if they're not saved.

So it's just really ridiculous.

I mean, well, and then on top of that, that's also saying that he knows exactly what's going to

happen to them, you know, in the moment of death.

I mean, there's so many problems with that.

You know, I recently had someone who was saying the same thing, and it got back to me, and that this person said

if someone came with a gun and was shooting a puppet because it was God's will and that he'd be

going into God's, I said, you know, there are some things that are

so huge or valuable in life, and I'd rather spend my time helping someone, you know,

else that's mind -boggling for somebody to have that kind of thing, especially qualifying it that

that's going against God's will.

I mean, that's, it just doesn't even make sense.

I mean, at some point, you know, you just have to take, it's just denial.

You know, Lieutenant Carl Grossman, I always recommend reading his books, and, you know, he dives really deep into the psychology of

violence, and there's just a lot of people who cannot process the idea that there are people out there,

you know, and so it's not about beginning with Larry, that, you know, these people who are, they're so

hateful towards cops and they tell these things, it's really easy to criticize and go after the guys on the front lines

when you don't know what that's like, and one of the concepts in Street Edge I talk about all the time is circumstances and intent,

and when someone wants to get, you know, say these different things, I just say to them, what are the circumstances and intent behind

what, say, will keep people safe, and we're trying to

make sure that churches are a warm, welcoming atmosphere.

That's the theologically balanced part of it, that we're not running this, like, warehouse security, and, you know, when you look at it like

that and then start to, you know, train properly, have proper conversations, that's how we can keep people safe.

And the website is psalm144 .org, psalm144 .org,

that's Psalm 144 Church Protection Seminars.

Thank you so much, Tim Fancher and Larry Parham for being on the show.

Thank you, everybody, for listening today, especially those who sent in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your

lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Amen.