Jeff Durbin vs. Andy Stanley (Coming Soon!)

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May 16, 2019

Join us for this very special broadcast of Apologia Radio. Jeff Durbin spends time talking about his recent debate/discussion with Andy Stanley on the "Unbelievable" broadcast with Justin Brierley on Premiere Christian Radio. The show will be released by "Unbelievable" on May 31st, 2019. Be on the lookout!

00:00: Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.
00:07: Are you going to bark all day, little doggie? Or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Yeah, I love the jetpack.
00:13: Delusional? Yeah. Delusional is OK in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.
00:20: So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly OK. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me.
00:27: What? What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.
00:37: The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.
00:44: Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.
00:50: Don't go into the world and make homies. Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle, Nick. That's a joke, pastor.
00:58: When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.
01:21: Behold my servant whom I uphold, my chosen and whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit upon him.
01:28: He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice or make it heard in the street.
01:36: A bruised reed he will not break. In a faintly burning wick he will not quench. He will faithfully bring forth justice.
01:45: He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands wait for his law.
01:55: What's up, y 'all? This is Jeff Durbin. Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world, y 'all.
02:03: Big day today. Exciting news for all you guys that have been partners and supporters and been a part of this ministry with us for a very long time.
02:13: I was up this morning at 3 .30 a .m. getting ready for a discussion with Andy Stanley.
02:21: That's right, y 'all. Andy Stanley, Charles Stanley's son. I even told him today in the episode that when
02:27: I first heard the gospel, I came to Christ very early on, not raising a
02:33: Christian home, didn't know anything about the Bible except there was a person named Jesus. People say he died and he rose again.
02:40: I didn't know what was in this book, what it was all about. And I told him I cut my teeth on Charles Stanley's teaching.
02:46: So I used to watch him on TV and listen to him on the radio. So Charles Stanley's son,
02:52: Andy Stanley, and I had a radio debate, discussion. We had time together today on the unbelievable radio program on Premier Christian Radio with Justin Brierley.
03:04: Justin Brierley. I've been listening to that show for a very, very long time. And it's a good show. They have a lot of important discussions on there and some great, great people just back and forth.
03:14: They have, you should go check it out. Go check out unbelievable radio program with Justin Brierley. And I think you'll be blessed to do that.
03:23: I'm just gonna get stuff together here. So as you can see, it's just me today, just the ninja in the studio today.
03:29: I am without the bear because the bear is on his mandatory sabbatical right now.
03:36: He's actually in Japan with some other members of Apologia Church.
03:43: Joy the girl is here today. She's in the back right now. We thought, hey, I'll do the show today to talk about my discussion with Andy Stanley.
03:51: What's up, y 'all? Welcome to everybody who's watching live right now on YouTube and across dem internets.
03:57: So we thought we'd do the show today to talk about the discussion that I had with Andy Stanley.
04:03: And it all really comes around his recent, fairly recent messages he did, the
04:10: Aftermath series and other things where he has suggested that Christians, because of the new covenant, need to unhitch from the old covenant, the
04:19: Old Testament. Really, the Ten Commandments are not your laws. You're not under those anymore, those sorts of things.
04:26: He wants to disconnect from the old covenant law in many ways. He's also written a book that I was able to read, and it's called
04:34: Irresistible. The book is Irresistible. It's where he really tries to lay out his position.
04:40: And it really moves from the issue of the law of God in the Old Testament to apologetic methodology in some ways.
04:49: How should we actually be talking to the world about the word of God? Should we say things like, because God says?
04:56: Or should we say, no, it's centered around an event. Because Jesus rose again from the dead, we need to listen to that person.
05:03: Whoever rises from the dead, that's who we need to listen to. And so the book Irresistible, I was able to take a look at and read through.
05:11: So we didn't get a chance today to get into a lot of the details I would have liked to have gotten into in the book itself.
05:17: There's some pretty serious and significant statements made in that book. But I am gonna play for everybody today, if you haven't heard it yet, some of his message,
05:26: Aftermath Part Three. It's called Not Difficult. You can watch it on them internets anywhere that you can really.
05:34: I think it's on Facebook too, but go take a look at that. I'm gonna be playing for it for some of it for you now. If you guys are wondering where you can get a link to the discussion that I had with Andy Stanley, it's not available yet.
05:45: It was done through video and audio. Justin said that he's gonna be putting it up May 29th.
05:53: So that'll be up in about two weeks. So you'll be able to check that out. We'll make sure it's available to everybody. You'll get a chance to see it.
05:58: And we'll probably do a review of it just to play through it for everybody. Very important discussion. And let me just say why we are doing it.
06:05: Why would we do a discussion like this? Why do we think it's important? I do believe that the issues that are contained in this discussion are vitally important.
06:14: As a matter of fact, I would actually argue that Andy Stanley's position that he's arguing from would gut the witness of the church in many ways, moving the church away from a historic perspective in many ways of the self -attesting nature of the word of God, the word of God as authoritative in and of itself, carrying its own authority, moving people away from that epistemological standpoint to another standpoint and saying, no, we know because the resurrection and we just need to have it all be there.
06:45: The resurrection, that's where it's all at. I also think it's important because there are promises.
06:52: We're going to talk about them today. There are promises in the word of God about the new covenant, about what
06:57: God's going to do when he brings Messiah to bring salvation, forgiveness to the ends of the earth and draw the nations to God.
07:03: There are promises contained there that are not just about salvation and forgiveness. A promise that I just read at the start of this episode, and that is about what
07:11: God's going to do through this Messiah to bring justice to the world. The Messiah is not going to grow faint or weary until he's established justice.
07:21: And one of the final parts of that, that I read there, you heard that, Isaiah 42, 4, he will not grow faint or be discouraged until he's established justice in the earth and the coastlands wait for his
07:33: Torah. They wait for his law. That's significant. It's important. We're going to talk about some of those.
07:39: The fact that the law of God is a constituent element of what God is going to do in the new covenant economy.
07:46: What God's going to do in the new covenant is something new that's different from what was before, but does not negate the justice and the goodness of God's law from before.
07:56: He's going to do it a new way, Jeremiah 31, 31. I'm already getting into it here, but just to just give you a little bit of a teaser here in Jeremiah 31, 31, in that promise of the
08:06: Messiah's kingdom and the new covenant itself. Of course, the promise there is about forgiveness and salvation.
08:12: I'll forgive their sin, forgive their iniquity. That's there. But before God talks about what he's going to do in the new covenant in terms of forgiveness and salvation, he says the new thing he's going to do, he's going to put his spirit within us.
08:24: He actually does something in the new covenant where God's going to take the law, the known law, the law that Jeremiah knew about, the law they were accustomed to, the law that was spoken by God.
08:37: He was going to take that law and he was going to put it within the people of God. He was going to write it on their hearts.
08:44: So now we go from having stone tablets outside the people of God, exerting pressure from the outside to now the spirit -empowered obedience to that law.
08:53: And that law now actually coming and taking residence within the people of God. So just think about it in terms of what
09:00: God says is so unique about the new covenant is not that now it's a lawless covenant. Now that it's not that it's a covenant that now negates the law and the goodness of God's law that he gave in those commandments.
09:13: But now it's those commandments now taking residence within us empowered by the spirit of God. The law, the known law is going to be written within the people of God.
09:23: God with his finger is putting it on your heart. Now not just on stone tablets outside the people of God.
09:30: So the discussion is vital. It's so important. And I do want to argue that what Andy Stanley is arguing for and what he's propagating today
09:39: I think does destroy much of historic orthodoxy. I think that it is a very, very dangerous perspective.
09:47: I don't think that Andy is an awful man. I love and respect Andy. I want to give him my love and respect.
09:53: But theologically speaking, what Andy Stanley is promoting, what he's teaching is dangerous.
09:59: Theology matters. Theology matters a lot. And our theology will lead to our praxis.
10:06: It will lead to our apologetic methodology. It will lead to our evangelical approach to the world.
10:12: And theology matters. If we adopt what Andy is suggesting, then we,
10:17: I think, are doing damage to what the scriptures themselves promise about God himself and what he's going to do in the world.
10:23: But if we also adopt what he's suggesting, we are abandoning the goodness and the blessing of God's law.
10:30: Is the law of God a curse? Yes, in one aspect. When the law of God has put over fallen people in the flesh and they cannot accomplish
10:38: God's law, yeah, there's a curse aspect to that. Absolutely. If you don't obey, there's a curse to that.
10:45: But now Christ has redeemed us from that. Why? We're no longer in the flesh as the people of God. That's Paul's whole argument in Romans 8.
10:53: The people who are in the flesh cannot submit to God's law. They're not even able to do so.
10:59: So think about it logically. The argument there is that you're not in the flesh. You're in the spirit.
11:05: Those who are in the flesh cannot submit to God's law. They're not even able to do so. But part of the blessing and the goodness of the new covenant is that we're not in the flesh.
11:14: We're regenerated and in the spirit. And so just consider now, this has implications, very serious implications in so many different aspects of our walk with the
11:26: Lord, of our witness to the world. And I think that if we have a departure as the
11:32: Christian church in terms of our witness to the world from the self -attesting revelation of God from the
11:38: Old Testament, if we have a departure from the declaration of God as to what is righteous and good and holy and just, then we're going to be in this very difficult place as the church to be a witness to the world and a light to the world in so many different areas.
11:54: Jesus says, you're the light in the world. You are scattering darkness.
12:00: You're salt, you're salt. Salt, by the way, wasn't just about making things taste better.
12:05: I've heard about people talking about, Jesus, you're the salt church. You're gonna make life so much more vibrant and amazing for the world.
12:13: Salt makes things so much more savory and amazing. Well, salt in that day was a preservative.
12:19: It preserves things from spoil and decay. You take away the witness of the church, all these aspects, you're taking away the witness of the church in terms of spoil and decay of the culture around about us.
12:31: And boy, oh boy, are we not seeing that today? Stop and think about it for a second.
12:38: Christians have moved away from a bold proclamation of the gospel, standing in the word of God as the revelation of God, the self -attesting authoritative word of God.
12:47: We're afraid to say it in the public square. We are, let's confess it, largely speaking, the Christian church is afraid to talk about the word of God in the public square.
12:56: We even go to the magistrates and we try to assume a position of neutrality. No, no, we're not saying because God says.
13:02: We're not saying because God has declared it. We're just saying like, this is the moral position. And we try to assume a position of neutrality in the public square, even to the degree of the magistrates.
13:12: We don't want the world to know that say we want an end to abortion because God has declared it's murder.
13:18: And that's the image of God. We just wanna use morally neutral arguments. And even the pro -life movement has been on record to say, no, we're not saying pro -life because God says.
13:28: We're just saying that it's the morally right thing to do. And my answer to that is, says who?
13:34: And if you got the discussion for justice and righteousness and all these things, if you got from the discussion, the word of God and his self -attesting authority from that discussion, you lose, you lose.
13:47: Jesus says, whoever is ashamed of me in this wicked generation, the son of man will also be ashamed of when he comes in judgment with all his holy angels with him.
13:58: And so I think that these issues are very, very important. They are vital.
14:04: Again, I have no hatred for Andy Stanley. I have great respect for him and love for him. And I think that what he has to say is very much an error.
14:14: And it is ultimately devastating to the witness of the church in many ways. And so are you all ready to get to it?
14:20: Let's get to it. Let me play for everybody a clip from Andy Stanley's sermon on a
14:26: Sunday, I believe. This is Aftermath Part Three, not difficult. It's about 31 minutes into the video.
14:33: So I'll go ahead and play this for you guys now so you can hear it. And then I'll make some comments. Paul tied sexual behavior to Jesus' new command.
14:42: The old covenant, the old covenant law of Moses was not the go -to source regarding sexual behavior in the church.
14:49: More importantly, the old covenant law, the law of God was not gonna be the go -to source for sexual immorality in the church.
15:04: The old covenant law is not gonna be the go -to source for sexual immorality in the church.
15:11: Now, it's interesting here. If you listen to this discussion, he says, now in the new covenant, it's built upon image of God concepts and your body's the temple of the
15:19: Holy Spirit. And you go, wait a minute, Andy, you said that the old covenant is not gonna be the go -to source when it comes to sexual morality and sexual behavior in the church.
15:31: But when he talks about it, he says, the concepts in the new covenant are image of God and your body's the temple of the
15:36: Holy Spirit. And you wanna just say to yourself, wait, Andy, can you stop and think about what you just said?
15:44: Those are statements that completely collide with one another. The old covenant law is not gonna be the go -to source for sexual morality in the church.
15:55: The new covenant concept is image of God and your body's the temple of the Holy Spirit. And you say, Andy, can you not see how you are flatly contradicting yourself at that point?
16:05: Where'd you get the concept of image of God from? Is it not from those old covenant documents, that Old Testament document?
16:12: Where'd you get the concept of temple and Holy Spirit and temple of God? Is it not from that Old Testament revelation of God?
16:20: So also, I wanna just point out a very, very serious inconsistency here.
16:25: When Andy Stanley says that for new covenant believers, sexual immorality is not defined by the
16:32: Old Testament. It's not defined by the Old Testament. I wanna say, okay, I'll bite.
16:37: Let's ask some questions then. My question then is if sexual morality is not defined by the
16:42: Old Testament revelation of God, then in the new covenant, Andy, can we have sex with animals in the new covenant?
16:50: Are we allowed to have sex with animals in the new covenant? Or how about this? Are we allowed to have sex with our brother or sister in the new covenant?
17:00: Is it permissible under the new covenant for a father to have sex with his daughter? Now, I know these are some heavy, heavy things to talk about brothers and sisters, but we have a man who's preaching before a church body and broadcasting into the world the idea that sexual morality is not defined by the
17:15: Old Testament for new covenant believers. And so let's ask those questions and let's mean them.
17:22: Can we have sex with relatives like brothers and sisters in the new covenant? And if you say no,
17:28: I wanna say by what standard? By what standard, Andy? Can we ask those questions?
17:36: Because you said it's not defined by the Old Testament, so we can't appeal to that revelation of God to define what is sexually immoral for new covenant believers for the church.
17:46: And so we can't say, well, because God has said here in his word that no, having sex with animals is an abomination and no, we can't have sex with brothers and sisters and fathers and children.
17:57: We can't go to that revelation. It's not the go -to source for any sexual behavior in the church.
18:03: That's what Andy says, that the Old Testament there is not gonna be the go -to source for any sexual behavior in the church.
18:11: And so we have to ask those questions. And I think that they're meaningful questions. And I don't believe that Andy's position gives us a solid basis to answer.
18:21: Also, it's internally contradictory and inconsistent when you say that the Old Testament revelation of God, that old covenant, it's not gonna be a basis for sexual morality in the church for defining it.
18:31: And then you start using Old Testament concepts like image of God and temple of the Holy Spirit to give your platform.
18:38: You're just using the Old Testament to do so. So a little bit more here, so you guys can hear a little bit more of his own words.
18:46: And perhaps more disturbingly, that's a word or offensively, the Old Testament or the law and the prophets, as they called it, was not gonna be the go -to source for any behavior in the church.
18:58: Now, to make this point, cause this is so important. Originally in my notes, I was gonna put a screen up here that said, in other words, that means thou shalt not obey the 10
19:08: Commandments. But I knew someone would take a picture of that and it would define me for the rest of my life.
19:15: So I'm not gonna put it up there. But I want you to hear me say it. Here's what the Jerusalem council was saying to the
19:21: Gentiles. You are not accountable to the 10 Commandments. You're not accountable to the
19:27: Jewish law. We're done with that. God has done something new. Besides, he would say to them and he would say to you, thou shalt not obey the 10
19:36: Commandments because those aren't your commandments. Yours are better. Thou shalt not obey the 10
19:42: Commandments because those are not your commandments. First of all, that is not what happened at the Jerusalem council.
19:48: They were not casting out the 10 Commandments and the Old Testament revelation of God of his standards of righteousness and holiness and justice and all the rest.
19:55: It was about keeping peace within the church. And, of course, we see in God's new covenant revelation what they were saying was the holiness code, of course, is done with because now we've gone from the dress rehearsal of the
20:08: Old Testament. We've gone from the shadows of the Old Testament to now the substance and the body of Christ.
20:15: And so, of course, now the dietary restrictions, of course, now all of those holiness code, Ephesians chapter 2, the law of commandments in ordinances, of course, those are passed away.
20:25: And why? Because they serve their purpose as the shadow to point to the body and substance.
20:32: But that has nothing to do with whether or not the 10 Commandments, whether or not the 10
20:38: Commandments, which express, by the way, love for God and love for neighbor, are still relevant today.
20:46: That's what I wanna ask there in terms of when we talk about the 10 Commandments gone,
20:51: Jesus was asked at a point in his ministry, Master, what's the greatest commandment in the law? And Jesus quotes this
20:58: Shema, Shema Yisrael, Yahweh Eloheinu, Yahweh Echad, Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the
21:03: Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength, Jesus says. And he says, the second is like it.
21:09: You should love your neighbor as you love yourself. He says, all the law and the prophets are built upon this. I wanna ask
21:15: Andy Stanley, Andy, are we still commanded in the new covenant to love God and love neighbor? And if Andy were to say to me, yes, we're still commanded in the new covenant to love
21:24: God and love neighbor. I would say, thank you, Andy. You just gave me all the law and the prophets. You did, because Jesus says so.
21:33: All the law and the prophets built upon love for God, love for neighbor. You wanna know how? Let's just take the 10 Commandments as an example.
21:39: Love for God and love for neighbor. Love for God, first table. What is it? He's God.
21:46: There is no other God. He's God. Don't even make a God that looks like him. Don't even have a
21:51: God in his sight. That's love for God. Do you see that? And the second table, you look over here at the other one and you're seeing love for neighbor stuff, like love your neighbor.
22:00: Well, what's it look like to love my neighbor? Well, don't lie. Don't lie to them. Don't steal from them. Don't murder them.
22:06: Don't commit adultery and don't covet, right? You're beginning to see now, oh, now I see.
22:11: So love for God, love for neighbor are the platforms from which the 10 Commandments come.
22:17: But then you have now in the case law system of the Old Testament, you have examples of what it means to love
22:24: God and love your neighbor in every area of life. For example, in the judiciary, when God said, here is a just penalty for theft,
22:32: God is showing you how to love your neighbor. How do you love your neighbor when there's theft? How does a judge make sure that neighbor is loved when there's theft?
22:40: How do you love your neighbor when there's a murder? How do you love your neighbor in terms of protection of human life?
22:46: Well, I'll give you an example of loving your neighbor in the judicial system and case law system of the
22:52: Old Covenants. It's not just laws that, you know, they're meaningless laws and God was just throwing this out.
22:57: They're just for them, you know, no big deal. It was about love for neighbor. Jesus said so. You know,
23:03: God had in his law, he said, many people are familiar with this. God said, you were to build a parapet around the rooftop of your houses.
23:09: I love this example because it's such an easy one for us to grapple with. God says, build a parapet around the roof of your house, right?
23:16: And we think like, well, okay, I got to do that today in a new covenant. No, it's a case law example. You take the principle of the law.
23:23: That is an abiding principle of loving neighbor. And God gives you an example in culture and society.
23:28: And he says, build a parapet around the rooftop of your house. Well, why? Because they used to spend a lot of time on the roofs of their houses to cool off at night, to store stuff up there and all the rest.
23:38: And so because you had people, neighbors, hanging out on top of rooftops, you wanted to make sure that you preserve life.
23:44: Why? Because you love your neighbor. And I want to say that principle does come over into the life of the new covenant believer.
23:51: You ought to care about that. Why? Because the principle is abiding. Love your neighbor. Preserve human life.
23:58: How? Well, build a railing where there could be potential harm to human life, like on your rooftops where you're hanging out.
24:06: The principle abides. So you say, well, how would that look in the life of the new covenant believer? Well, I ought to love my neighbor and be concerned with the preservation of life.
24:13: So that means if I have a pool, what ought I to do as a new covenant believer who has a law written in my heart? I ought to care about the preservation of life, which means put a railing or put a fence around a pool.
24:24: Or if you have deep wells in your property where little kids can fall into it, make sure you put a railing around that. Why? Because of the preservation of human life.
24:31: You ought to love your neighbor as you love yourself. So when Andy argues that that's not your law, those aren't your commandments.
24:40: He'll say things like, you know, you've got something better. Jesus says, I give you a new commandment, that you're to love one another as I have loved you.
24:47: Now, I want to say this. This is a critical failure, I think, in Andy's thinking.
24:53: And I mean this with all due respect. When he says, well, Jesus gives us a new commandment to love people like I've loved you.
25:00: I want to say, because Jesus gives a new commandment, it doesn't mean that the old ones are irrelevant. Jesus is now the lawgiver walking among us now,
25:09: God taking on flesh, saying, I've put flesh on this. Here's what I want you to do. Here's a new one.
25:15: Love people the way I've loved you, like how I washed your feet, how I've served you, how
25:20: I've given myself up for you. But watch, this is critical. Because Jesus says, I've given you a new commandment, it doesn't logically follow that now
25:29: God's other commandments are irrelevant. He still requires of us to love our neighbor.
25:36: He still requires of us to honor father and mother. And I'm going to give you proof of that in just a minute here.
25:41: This is a critical, critical failure that I think will create conflict within the church, conflict in terms of our witness to the world and conflict to the scriptures themselves.
25:51: It will make it near impossible to read your Bible and make any sense of it when you adopt
25:57: Andy's perspective here. Those aren't your commandments, Andy Stanley argues. Well, I want to go into that here just for a moment here and make sure
26:05: I get some of these notes together here. And let's just do this just quickly. You guys ready for this? So thank you guys all for hanging on and watching right now.
26:12: Let's talk about it. He says, those aren't your commandments. You're not under those at all. Again, I said, this is going to make mishmash of the
26:19: New Testament record itself. It won't make any sense. But let's just go to some promises briefly. Jeremiah 31, 31 is one of those old covenant,
26:28: Old Testament promises about what God is going to do with the new covenant. And again, I mentioned it.
26:34: I won't belabor the point here. But for those of you guys who just joined, one of the things that God announces before he talks about forgiveness and salvation in the new covenant is he announces that he's going to do something new, not like the covenant he made with the people of God, even though he was a husband to them and they broke his covenant.
26:52: He says he's going to do something new where he will actually write his law, his Torah within them.
26:57: Which Torah? Well, the known law, the law of God, the law that was revealed by God is now going to be written inside of us.
27:04: So now no longer on stone tablets outside the people of God, exerting pressure. Now you have something new with spirit filled people indwelled by God with the law written now, not on stone, but inside.
27:15: Internally motivated to obey the law of God. Then you also have Isaiah chapter two.
27:21: God promises in Isaiah two and the kingdom of the Messiah, the nations were going to stream up to God.
27:27: So that's not just Jews. God's drawing the world up to his mountain. Very beautiful, symbolic, poetic language there.
27:35: The nations are streaming up to the mountain of God being drawn up. Water doesn't go up by the way.
27:40: It goes down. So they're being drawn up to God's mountain. And then it says that the law, the
27:46: Torah is going to go forth from Zion. So the Torah, the law is coming out from the people of God.
27:52: So far from being irrelevant in the new covenant, the promises, the law of God is a constituent element of what
27:58: God is going to do in the Messiah's kingdom with the salvation and forgiveness. It's not merely people going to heaven one day.
28:06: God is regenerating people. He is empowering people by his spirit. He is making people alive.
28:12: He's making them relate to one another and to him in a new way, in a new and powerful way through Jesus Christ and redemption.
28:18: But don't forget, it's the law, the Torah that goes forth from the people of God.
28:24: Isaiah 42, the coastlands wait for his Torah. He will establish justice on the earth.
28:29: The coastlands wait for his law. That's a constituent element of what God's going to do in the Messiah's kingdom and salvation and forgiveness.
28:36: But Ezekiel 36 is another powerful promise in terms of what God is going to do that's so powerful and unique in the new covenant.
28:43: It says that God is going to sprinkle clean water on them so they'll be clean. They'll be cleansed from all their idols.
28:49: Yes. Praise God for all of us struggling and warring against our flesh and idolatry and sin.
28:56: God says, I'm going to do this. It's not for your sake, but for the sake of my holy name.
29:01: God's doing this himself. He's going to empower us. He says, I'll put my spirit within you and I will cause you to observe my statutes.
29:10: Which statutes are those, Andy? When God promises that he's going to cause his people to observe his statutes in Ezekiel 36, which statutes do you think
29:21: Ezekiel is referring to? And I wonder, by the way, how Andy's perspective can be squared with the psalmist in Psalm 119.
29:30: Just read it, guys. Just read it. It's the longest chapter in the entire Bible. But go read
29:36: Psalm 119 and ask yourself the question, does Andy's preaching and his sermons about the law of God in the
29:43: Old Testament, when he refers to the law of God and he speaks about it, do you get the impression that Andy's perspective of the law of God is anything like the psalmist in Psalm 119?
29:56: Is it anything like the psalmist about the law of God in Psalm 119? That was before the new covenant now.
30:01: Remember that. Psalm 119, of course we recognize is how Jesus thinks perfectly about the law in his life and in his ministry.
30:10: But of course, that's the righteous standard. When Jesus calls us to be like him, we're being conformed to his image.
30:17: If Psalm 119 is the righteous and perfect way to think about God's holy law, his unchanging character and law, if it's the righteous way to view
30:27: God's law, and it's the way that Jesus viewed the law of God perfectly, if we're being conformed to Christ's image, then how are we to think about God's Old Testament revelation of his law?
30:40: Now I wanna ask you, and I mean this with all due respect and humility towards Andy, completely and totally.
30:46: I wanna ask you, when you listen to Andy talk about the law of God in the Old Testament, does he sound like the psalmist in Psalm 119?
30:54: Does it sound anything like it? And I wanna argue that it doesn't. Now, when Andy says, those aren't your commandments, you are not obligated to obey the 10 commandments under the new covenant.
31:05: Those are not your commandments. I wanna say this is critical because the 10 commandments are repeated throughout the new covenant.
31:13: So I want you to consider now, post -cross, post -resurrection and post -ascension, the
31:19: New Testament documents are actually filled with references to the 10 commandments.
31:25: So they're just assumed throughout the New Testament. So here's the critical part of how we need to think about this as Christians and be
31:32: Barans and actually test all things here and actually see if what Andy Stanley is saying is so.
31:41: Remember what happened in Thessalonica and Berea when Paul goes into Berea and they search the scriptures daily to see if what the apostle
31:51: Paul was saying was true. They were more noble -minded than those in Thessalonica. By the way, also, this is a critical point.
31:58: Andy, if you see this, my friend, I want you to consider this. It says that the Berean Christians searched the scriptures daily to see if what the apostle
32:06: Paul was saying was true. So these early Christians are complimented in the word of God for searching the scriptures to test
32:14: Paul's claims about Jesus Christ. Now, which scriptures do you think they were searching,
32:20: Andy? Which scriptures? They knew the Old Testament Revelation. They knew the Greek Septuagint.
32:25: It was the Bible of the first century for the early Christians and Jews, the Greek Septuagint. They knew which books were in the
32:31: Old Testament Revelation. The Old Testament was laid up in the temple. They knew which books were there. Paul refers to Timothy in 2
32:39: Timothy 3, 16 through 17. He says, All scripture is theanoustos. It is breathed out by God, profitable, correction, teaching, reproof, that the man of God may be complete.
32:48: Right? So which scriptures are being referred to there in the first century? The New Testament canon wasn't even finished yet.
32:56: Well, Paul's talking to Timothy about the scriptures that were known, the word of God, the Old Testament Revelation.
33:01: Now, what's important here to recognize is that when you look at the New Covenant documents, they refer to the
33:07: Ten Commandments and they draw them in with this kind of mindset. Not, now, hey guys, we know that those aren't our commandments.
33:14: They're not our commandments. Ours are better. These are irrelevant now. We're New Covenant believers. Jesus has come.
33:20: That's all gone. It's all completely gone and done away with. We're New Covenant believers. It's never done like that.
33:26: When the inspired apostles bring the Ten Commandments into the
33:31: New Covenant documents, what they do is they assume the continuity.
33:36: They just assume it. Never with, now, everyone we know, this is all gone and it's defunct now. This is not your commandment, but I'm gonna go ahead and bring this one over for good measure.
33:44: They just assume the continuity. I'll give an example. And I talked to Andy about this today. More could be drawn from in Ephesians chapter six, verse one.
33:53: The apostle Paul just assumes this one. Children, obey your parents in the
33:59: Lord for this is right. This is present tense. This is right.
34:05: Present tense. Honor your father and mother. He doesn't say this was right. He says, this is right.
34:11: Honor your father and your mother. This is the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.
34:20: Ephesians six, verses one through two. Again, if that's not our commandments,
34:25: Andy, then what's the apostle Paul doing bringing that over into the life of the new covenant believer? Why is he talking to the children in the church and saying, obey your parents in the
34:33: Lord, honor your father and your mother. And he's even mentioning the promise there. If those aren't our commandments, then why is it being mentioned?
34:40: I thought our commandments were better. I thought that we're not under those commandments. Those aren't our commandments.
34:46: And Paul just assumes the continuity of that commandment from the 10 commandments.
34:51: And he doesn't say, I'm just tossing this in for good measure. He assumes the continuity. Now somebody could say, well, yes,
34:57: Jeff, because you see, here's the thing. That's just such a good law. Like we really want kids to honor your father and your mother.
35:05: You might be like, maybe Paul was a dad and he knew that, you know what? Dang it, we need this one. Of all things, we gotta have this one.
35:11: No, that's actually not what takes place because you see more than that in the new Testament. Now I want you all please to come with me on this.
35:19: I want you to think about the timeline here. This is post cross, post resurrection and post ascension.
35:26: So we're not in the middle of Jesus' ministry here, what I'm gonna show you next. We're not even shortly afterwards.
35:32: This is after, long after the mission of the Messiah and he's ascended. He's seated on his throne.
35:39: His kingdom is expanding in the world. The apostle Paul writes this in 1
35:44: Corinthians 9, 8. Please listen to this because I think this is so critical and so powerful.
35:51: Do I say these things, Paul says, on human authority. Mark that down. He's giving them instruction.
35:58: He's not saying, I'm on my authority y 'all. He's saying, do I say this on human authority?
36:04: Is that where this is coming from? Human authority? He says, does not the law say the same?
36:10: For it is written in the law of Moses, you shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.
36:17: Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak? Listen, for our sake, it was written for our sake because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.
36:33: If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? Watch what he did there.
36:39: The apostle Paul takes, get this, an animal husbandry law.
36:45: How to care for your animals. After the resurrection of Jesus, after the ascension of Jesus, Pentecost is broke out.
36:53: The spirit of God filled believers. They're going out with power in the gospel, preaching the gospel. The church is growing now and they're being sanctified.
37:01: And Paul has to deal with an issue in Corinth. And what does he do to deal with it? He refers to the law of God from Moses.
37:11: And he says, this is what the law from Moses says. Don't muzzle the ox while it treads the grain.
37:16: Is God concerned simply with animals there? He says, no, the principle there is what? Take care of the people who are working for you.
37:25: That moral law, that love your neighbor law, is relevant in the new covenant.
37:30: Can we not see it brothers and sisters? Isn't it as obvious as the nose of my face? Andy Stanley's perspective is not only anti -historic, but it's also anti -biblical in terms of how the apostles use the law of God in the new covenant itself.
37:46: The 10 commandments are assumed the continuity. The animal husbandry law assumed continuity.
37:53: Now somebody might say, okay, but yeah, there are changes. It's never been the argument of the Christian church that there's not changes, that there's not new ways to look at the law.
38:02: But the argument has always been for Christians that it is the assumption of continuity of the law of God, of his spoken revealed will and law, the assumption of continuity, except where the divine law giver gives you specific instructions and revelation about the way to view the law.
38:21: And I think a good way to show that is right in this next piece here. Not only do we have animal husbandry laws, but we also have judicial law.
38:30: So we have 10 commandments assumed continuity, just brought over with the assumption of continuity.
38:35: We have animal husbandry laws, assumption of continuity. You're supposed to know that principle. You're supposed to know how to apply that even as a new covenant believer, it's written for us.
38:45: Then judicial law. Yeah, court stuff. Judicial law, the assumption of continuity.
38:50: And it's not just once, it's several times in our New Testament. Judicial law is assumed to be continuous in the life of the new covenant church.
39:00: An example, in 1 Timothy 5 .19, the apostle Paul says to Timothy, do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
39:11: Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. So Timothy, he quotes from the judicial standards of receiving charges against somebody.
39:22: And there had to be two to three independent lines of witness and testimony. Now, by the way, this isn't something novel that the apostle
39:30: Paul is bringing in, in this particular point, Jesus also upholds this standard.
39:36: You all know it, don't you? We all know this. If you're in the church and your church practices church discipline, I hope you know it.
39:42: I hope your church practices church discipline because it's necessary and it's a commandment from the Lord. Matthew 18,
39:48: Jesus says what? If somebody's caught in a sin, what do you do? You go to them first, what? Shut up, privately.
39:55: You go to them, you try to restore them privately. And if they won't listen to you, what do you do? Jesus says you bring what?
40:02: You bring witnesses. Where do we think Jesus got that standard from? Where did he get the standard from?
40:08: Oh, Jesus gets that standard from the Torah, from the law of God. You bring witnesses for confirmation.
40:15: And then Jesus says, if they won't listen to the witnesses, then you bring it before the church. That's how you deal with matters within the church itself.
40:20: You take the judicial standard of God's law. You apply that principle even in these cases. Why? Because that's justice.
40:27: Why? Because that is loving your neighbor. That's loving your neighbor.
40:32: And that's a command throughout the new covenant. And Paul has it in 1 Timothy 5, verse 19. Timothy, don't admit a charge against an elder unless it's on the basis of two to three independent lines of witness and testimony.
40:43: That's God's judicial standard. So what do we have here thus far? Andy says, those aren't your commandments.
40:49: Yours are better. Those aren't your commandments. You're not under those or obligated to those at any more at all.
40:56: But then you have the apostles just assuming the continuity of the 10 commandments. Then you have the apostles assuming the continuity of animal husbandry laws.
41:04: Then you have the apostles assuming continuity of judicial law. And then you have the apostle Paul assuming this.
41:10: He says in 1 Corinthians 5, verse eight, let us therefore celebrate the festival not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
41:26: Remember saying, well, what in the world is that in reference to? Well, it's in reference to, of course, what we see in the law. You had particular ways where they would act out these amazing scenes of divine truth with the temple, the priest, the veil, the holy of holies, sacrifices, atonement.
41:41: You had particular dress code, holiness code. You had particular, I like to say training wheels that you had with the people of God to do what?
41:50: To teach them about these truths. Now those truths are true and they're true in the new covenant.
41:58: Example, we still have a temple. Do you know that in the new covenant? We've still got a temple and we still have a priest and we still have sacrifice.
42:07: It's a once for all sacrifice. But those concepts now in the new covenant are not negated. Now they're amplified and they're settled once for all.
42:16: And we have the more beautiful temple. We have one that's in the heavens that can never be destroyed. We have a high priest that intercedes for us forever, forever and ever, once for all.
42:27: He can never die. We have the high priest that it was all pointing to all along. And we have a once for all sacrifice.
42:34: So how come no more shadows? That law of God, we don't do that anymore.
42:40: Well, yeah, we don't do it anymore as the dress rehearsal because we have the real thing. It's not that it's irrelevant.
42:46: God's like, throw that away. All those concepts, meaningless, don't matter. Why? Because you have Jesus now.
42:51: No, now those concepts take on a whole new light and they are meaningful and they are relevant right now.
42:59: We don't toss the law of God out. The apostles don't do that. Even in the book of Hebrews, where he talks about the aspect of the old covenant that is obsolete, it's on the basis of the fact that because we've got the real temple, because we have the high priest forever who intercedes for us, because we have a sacrifice that's once for all.
43:18: So in terms of what's obsolete, yeah, that ceremonial stuff is obsolete. Why? Because we've got
43:24: Jesus. Does that mean that all the law of God and his standards of righteousness and holiness and justice are gone now?
43:31: Absolutely not. That's denied fundamentally in the New Testament itself. But in this aspect,
43:37: Paul now gives divine revelation of how you as a Christian and I today are supposed to keep the festival.
43:44: Whereas now we don't do it with the dress rehearsal of going to sweep out leaven out of our house and to dig around for leaven out of our house.
43:51: Brothers and sisters, that was a play. It was an acting out of divine truth.
43:58: Get this leaven out of your house. Now, because that training wheel is off, because we're filled with the spirit of God and have his law written within us, what's
44:07: Paul say? He says, now you do it in this way. He says, now you remove the leaven of malice and evil.
44:18: Now no more dress rehearsal, no more acting out this ritual to get to this truth, this divine truth.
44:27: Now Paul says, keep the festival, but do it in the way that it was really pointing to. What you were acting out before in the law, in this rudimentary way, in this elemental way like this, now do it as a
44:38: Christian saved in Jesus with a once for all sacrifice and dwelt by God's spirit. Keep the festival, keep what it meant, right?
44:46: So we don't say law, gone, out, get out of here law. It's no longer relevant in the new covenant.
44:53: Now we say, no, now it's uber relevant, but now when it's fulfilled way, no more shadow substance, no more shadow body.
45:02: Now we've got the real thing. So far from being not my commandment and not relevant.
45:08: Now I'm empowered to actually obey it in the way that it was always saying to obey.
45:13: Another example here, death penalty. Death penalty in the new covenant.
45:21: Yeah, Old Testament and New Testament talk about the issue of justice with the death penalty. Give you a quick example,
45:28: Acts 25 11, the apostle Paul is on trial. And he says, if then I'm a wrongdoer and have committed anything for which
45:34: I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death. There's the apostle Paul after the cross, after the resurrection, after the ascension on trial.
45:42: He's being accused now of things that he's worthy of death for. And he says, if I've done anything worthy of death,
45:48: I don't object to dying. Here's Paul as a saved Christian and dwelt by the spirit of God who knows
45:53: Jesus. He has been redeemed by the blood of the lamb. And he says, after the cross and resurrection and ascension of Jesus at a trial, where he has an awesome opportunity now to witness about how none of that matters any longer.
46:06: He actually says, if I've done anything worthy of death, I don't object to dying. Why? Because that would be just. Because God has spoken,
46:13: God's revealed it. Why? Because for Paul, his standard is the self -attesting revelation of the word of God.
46:18: God has disclosed himself. He's given us revelation about what is righteous, true and holy.
46:23: And Paul says on trial, if I deserve to die, I don't object to dying. Why? Because God has spoken on this issue.
46:31: And if I am guilty, that's justice. Now, Paul actually says that, and more could be said in terms of that particular one.
46:39: I'll just point you to one text to go read it later. 1 Timothy 1, verse 8. No, I'll read it. No, I'll do that.
46:45: We have time. We have hundreds of people watching right now. So I do want you guys to hear this one. 1 Timothy 1, verse 8.
46:52: It says this. Now we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully. Pause.
46:57: Andy's contention is that it isn't relevant any longer for us today.
47:03: We're not under those commandments. Our laws are better. Paul says to Timothy after the cross, after the resurrection, after the ascension,
47:11: I keep saying that to make sure that we're keeping this together in our minds, holding it all together. We know that the law is good, not was good.
47:20: The law is good. If one uses it, uses it lawfully.
47:26: Understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers.
47:39: Now, quick thing. What was the just penalty for the judiciary in terms of loving your neighbor?
47:48: How do you love your neighbor? God says, here's how you love your neighbor. What was the just penalty for a murderer in God's Old Testament revelation?
47:56: The death penalty. And Paul goes on, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers.
48:04: Brothers and sisters, what was God's penalty? His just penalty to love your neighbor if somebody is kidnapped.
48:12: How do I love my neighbor properly if somebody kidnaps somebody else and enslaves them?
48:19: The penalty was death. Liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, watch what
48:25: Paul says, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed
48:30: God with which I have been entrusted. Go read that passage later. 1
48:35: Timothy 1 8, he pulls together a string of actual death penalty things in terms of justice.
48:43: And he says, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, he says it is good if one uses it lawfully.
48:50: Here's what it's for. Here's what the law is for. That is Paul speaking in the present tense in what is in accordance with the gospel under the new covenant, after the cross, after the resurrection, after the ascension of Jesus.
49:03: And finally, and I think we're probably gonna end the show here after this one, the Lord Jesus. Let's land on this one.
49:09: Jesus says in Matthew 5 17 -19, do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.
49:19: I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Now, just a quick thing here in terms of what is there in the wording, do not think, actually in the
49:29: Greek is, me namasete. Now that in the Greek is, do not begin to think.
49:35: So Jesus doesn't tell people who are in front of him now, as he's talking about the law, he doesn't say, guys, stop thinking.
49:41: Stop thinking. Okay? It's in your head. I want you to stop thinking it. He says, do not even start.
49:48: Don't even begin to think. Don't let it even get the seed into your mind. Don't let it seep into your head.
49:56: Do not even begin to think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.
50:03: The word there, abolish in the English comes from the Greek foundational word, kataluo, which means to abolish or to dismantle, to take apart.
50:13: He says, he didn't come to dismantle the law of God, to take it apart. He didn't come to abolish it.
50:19: He came to fulfill them. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
50:29: Therefore, whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
50:35: But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Now I know that Andy will refer to this passage and say, no,
50:41: I'm not saying that, you know, we do that because you go to the back of the line, Jesus says, when you do that. But Andy, again, with all due respect, you're doing that.
50:51: You're doing exactly that. And however you see this text, if you put your words in here, like,
51:00: I have not come to abolish the law, but to abolish them, which is what you're ultimately saying, you're making
51:08: Jesus speak against himself here. If your interpretation, as you put it into this text, makes Jesus say that,
51:13: I haven't come to abolish them, but to abolish them. I haven't come to abolish them, but to do away with them.
51:20: You're making Jesus, his statement nonsense. And your particular interpretation of Jesus here, as you put your perspective into his words here, makes nonsense of Jesus' own perspective on the law.
51:34: But notice what Jesus says there, whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
51:44: Kingdom of heaven is synonymous with kingdom of God, the rule of God. And so I think that we need to consider that if we adopt
51:50: Andy Stanley's perspective in the law of God, not only is it internally inconsistent, not only is it incoherent in many ways, not only is it contradictory in terms of what the
51:59: Bible itself says, but it actually has us adopt a perspective of the law of God that makes us least in the kingdom of heaven.
52:07: And that ought to concern us as Christians. When Jesus says, do them and teach them, to his people, do them and teach them.
52:16: It seems as though Andy is creating a movement where he wants people to do what?
52:22: To disobey even the least of them. Isn't that what we're saying here? When you say the 10 commandments aren't our commandments, they're not our commandments, those aren't our commandments.
52:33: Again, that means those are expressions of loving God and loving neighbor. So I don't know why we'd wanna do away with those with the law written within us and filled with God's spirit.
52:40: Don't we wanna love God and love our neighbor? So I would wanna do away with those standards of how to love
52:45: God and love neighbor. But if we consider it as Christians, if those aren't our commandments, if we're telling people those aren't your commandments, you don't have to obey those commandments.
52:58: Yours are better. Aren't we teaching people to disobey even the least of these commandments? Aren't we teaching them to disregard them?
53:04: Those aren't your commandments. Don't pay attention to those. Are we not avoiding doing them and teaching them like Paul was?
53:12: When Paul was teaching children in Ephesians 6, he was teaching them, children, obey your parents and the
53:19: Lord, honor your father and your mother. It seems like Paul is great in the kingdom of God.
53:25: It seems like he's great. This movement where we're saying disregard the law of God, these aren't our commandments.
53:32: I think it makes us least, Andy. And that's why I'm concerned. All right, guys. Thank you all for watching this episode of Apologia Radio and listening for all you guys are catching this on them internets via the podcast.
53:45: I want to encourage everybody to go to apologiastudios .com, A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A studios .com,
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55:38: All right, y 'all. I'll catch you next week. Be in prayer for the bear as he's on his sabbatical. Pray for us as we're doing some important things.
55:45: And one last word. I know I keep saying last thing, but get ready in about three hours.
55:53: I'm going to drop a video that's going to drop your jaw to the ground. Our children yesterday went to the
55:59: Phoenix City Council. Yes, they wanted to. Our children, an apology, went to speak to the
56:04: Phoenix City Council. And let me tell you right now, I had tears falling down my face watching these children preach with such boldness.
56:14: It... I'll just let you see it. You have got to see it. I'm going to share one today with Mikey.
56:20: I was holding back like bursting out because it was jaw dropping.
56:26: This child was so much courage to preach to these magistrates calling abortion murder.
56:32: It's a nine -year -old boy. I believe Mikey's nine. You've got to see it. Wait till you see it. Be back here just a little bit later and check out the video and share it with the world.