Discernment and Disqualification with Phil Johnson from Shepherds Conference

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

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Today on the rap report, we're going to have a very special guest Just saw him recently at the shepherds conference and he had one of the best messages at shepherds conference dealing with well many of us who are in the internet and many of us who like to Somewhat do discernment ministries in a way and we're going to get to him in just a moment

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Welcome to the rap report with andrew rap report where we provide biblical interpretations

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And applications. This is the ministry of striving for eternity and the christian podcast community for more content

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Or to request a speaker for your church go to striving for eternity dot org All right, we welcome to the rap report brother phil johnson

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And I have to say that yours was in my opinion the second best message only because To top john mcarthur's first message when he opened the conference with was hard to beat

01:04

That was probably the best You're ranking me way too high. I I you know You know who blew me away was mike riccardi

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And he's also a new jersey. I I don't know if you knew that but he's a jersey boy And uh,

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I thought he had the most stunning and profound message in the whole conference.

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Uh, like you say next to john But uh, wow Well, see I can't compare his because I was not when he preached

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I was not around um, so he his was one of the ones i'm waiting to hear when it gets on to uh, the back online

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When you do hear it, you'll definitely move me down the list I don't know.

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This was a pretty hard message to move down phil And if you don't move me down after hearing mike's

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I will question your discernment Well with that you you preached out of second timothy, too and it was

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I mean, I I think it was so super helpful because we do have issues with people online on twitter on facebook who

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Fancy themselves as if they're pastors fancy themselves as if they're doing discernment and You know recently on an earlier podcast episode.

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I had todd friel on and Todd did an outstanding job of laying out Six points he thinks of before he is going to name someone publicly or address an issue

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Which is helpful for us because there are times that we should not mention names There's times where we need to mention names as you mentioned in your sermon paul did

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There's a time and a place to do that but Let me first ask this question of you.

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How much do you think the internet? Has amplified These discernment bloggers and I know you and I go back to the guy with the discernment notebook.

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I forget his name back in the Was the 80s when he used to have that notebook? um

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And now I I see a lot more of that than I used to see back then Do you think the internet has played into that?

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Yeah, i've forgotten that guy's name too. Uh, but you're right he what he did was Uh, he was a compiler of other people's information most of the stuff uh, he collected in that notebook other people had

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Had done the work and he compiled it all parts of it were helpful but parts of it were just hyper critical and You could tell by the way, it was constructed that he just went looking for negative comments and negative info

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On anybody who was famous. I mean anybody who was a respectable respected

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Uh evangelical he had an entry on them with everything negative that had ever been said about them and uh, yeah,

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I thought that was most unhelpful and in fact, uh, Uh was pretty critical of him at the time when

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I first got on the internet then Uh, I noticed that that sort of thing proliferated and let me back up and say too that passage second timothy that uh, it was the second half of Second timothy two

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I I said in my message I chose it Uh, because it poses a certain challenge to me it steps on my toes there are times when uh,

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I think I look back and read something I wrote, you know Some some time previously I was going to say years ago, but it isn't all in the years past uh, my besetting sin is uh, uh a tongue that may be too sharply honed for sarcasm and every now and then i'll see something

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I wrote before and and you know kind of be ashamed that I was so curt or So sharp -tongued and we're not supposed to default to that.

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There are times When even scripture says false teachers deserve a sharp rebuke jesus

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Rebuked the pharisees with very harsh words. He turned over their tables and all so it would be wrong to say as I think most people think

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That it's always bad to use any kind of sharp rebuke or or be harsh in your criticism

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Sometimes that is appropriate But I think what paul is telling timothy and second timothy too is don't don't make that your default

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Reaction to everything you disagree with don't don't just automatically uh pound every ant with a sledgehammer you you have to you have to sort of Accommodate your tone to the seriousness of the mistake

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That you're dealing with I find it's much easier for me to do that when i'm actually talking to someone

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Than when i'm writing out my criticism and you can't you can't it's not as easy to convey tone or attitude in writing and um, uh, you know, my my writing style is

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Uh, not wordy not uh, I don't fill everything with emojis It's not always easy to discern to discern my attitude and uh, uh

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So that that is a that is a sin. I grapple with that's why I chose that passage. I wasn't picking on You know any any individual in particular and saying, you know

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Try trying to That we all know people who fit that category That actually what

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I said applies to any number of people on the internet. I mentioned this before there are these nests of Self -appointed discernment experts who lots of what they say may be good and and uh

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Valid but it's not helpful because it's blended with so much stuff that is over critical or over harsh

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That they actually do a disservice to the gift of discernment to the the ministry of discernment because they make

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They make it so odious for people to read criticism and have to filter out what's

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What's overstated what's exaggerated? What's necessary? How harsh should I how harshly should

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I respond to this and and I think you're right because of the internet because the internet gives Every disgruntled person a big megaphone that you know reaches the whole world uh that sort of attitude where People try to outdo each other to find the most critical thing about the most respectable person and it's like there's a contest to do that who

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Who can we embarrass that everybody would be shocked if we embarrassed this guy because he's respectable because he's been faithful because he's preached the gospel

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For years and now we found this thing. We disagree with him on let's magnify it And that's the opposite of what scripture says

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Love should be inclined to do Well, it's you know interesting because i'm i'm very guilty of um being very terse when

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I type and people often assume Motives that aren't there

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One of the things with me As you know, I grew up a jewish and we grew up debating.

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That's just it's a way of life That's probably why so many jewish people become lawyers. It's The the ultimate job for a jewish person they get paid to debate

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But there's no emotion in debating When the way that I was raised at least you don't have the emotion there, but so many people assume that One of the things you said in your message though I found very very helpful is

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You brought up the term youthful lusts and you You did address that it deals with The passions lustful passions that most people think of when they think of that You had more that you put into that that I think is really helpful for the discussion of discernment and people that are online

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How is it that you saw that term defined? Well, it's because of the context that whole passage uh second half of second timothy starts and ends with paul warning timothy not to be quarrelsome and it stands out it sticks out hugely to me because Normally you hear paul

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Telling timothy to be courageous be a good soldier fight the good fight You know, it's a lot of militant language and a lot of encouragement to timothy who if you read between the lines

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It seems timothy Was a timid fellow he wasn't as he certainly wasn't as bold as the apostle paul who is but uh paul just peppered everything he ever wrote to timothy with Encouragements to be bold to be willing to suffer to be willing to say the hard thing or take the hard stance

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And right in the middle of this Is this half of a chapter that that warns against being?

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argumentative and harsh And it says correct people who have false doctrine, but do it with gentleness you may win them over he says and uh, uh, so it's in that context that he says flee youthful lusts and I have to think one of the lusts

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He he had in mind and it is a youthful passion that trips us all up Is that sort of adolescent itching for an argument about everything, you know?

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Uh, that's one of the youthful passions that clearly that paul is telling timothy to avoid because that command is sandwiched between warnings not to pursue fruitless arguments not to pursue arguments over mere words

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Uh and not to be harsh Yeah, I will say I think john macarthur is probably as bold as paul, but if we were going to look for somebody

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He might be there You know, you brought up the issue that these a lot of these bloggers

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Podcasters discernment people like the guy with the sermon notebook guys who have youtube channels where they're gonna call everybody out and They're self -appointed

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Um, we actually we were talking about one who you and I both, uh, who I know i've met personally, but you know

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Uh who is a self boy? He's never attended a church that I know of Can't find a church that holds to his standard, but he feels he's qualified to call

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John macarthur out believes justin peters isn't saved which is crazy if you know justin peters but Why is it that so many of these people you mentioned the self -appointed?

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That seems to be consistent with many of these so -called discernment people

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Yeah, well it's a part of that youthful passion that makes people argumentative is the this sort of notion that I have to prove myself right by Discrediting everybody else and there's this heady feeling that they get from doing that The problem is then if you become that hyper critical you're going to be critical of everyone close to you as well

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You'll treat your friends like you treat your enemies you will Uh, you'll find it very hard to find a church where everything is done

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Just the way you would want it to be because let's face it I don't know anybody who who goes to a church like that any of us could point to certain things that are either done or said or taught or Believed by people in positions of teaching authority or whatever in our churches

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That maybe we don't quite agree with or whatever and if you become so picky That every small disagreement is the same as every big disagreement and every friend

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Needs to be treated the same as the as every enemy just to prove that you're you you're not

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Partial to anyone you're not preferring your friends uh, then you're you're literally going to start to treat everybody like an enemy and treat every disagreement as if it's a

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Some cardinal doctrine that you're defending and you will be forced by your own misguided convictions to separate from people whom you ought to fellowship with and uh, which means you won't ultimately you won't be able to partner with any church or fellowship or belong to any church, uh,

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Because you essentially cut yourselves off yourself off from that kind of fellowship And so there are tons of people like that they're the and and some of them are fairly well known, you know discernment experts on the internet who

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As far as we know don't belong to or attend any church Just a little group of people in their living room and usually that's their family who are required to be there

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And they might call that church, but it isn't really a church Yeah, I mean we've you and I have dealt with uh,

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I forget the guy's name, uh who used to email us like 30 page emails Uh, so he's the guy from europe, right?

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Yeah. Yeah Yes, and and you know, that's another tendency that these guys had that guy

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Would find any sort of tenuous connection? Uh, like, you know six degrees of kevin bacon and and tie anybody he wanted to to some kind of error

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Uh, he sent out countless emails uh Accusing me of having some ties to a guy in europe who had

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I think was a roman catholic or something like that guy I never even heard of because somebody

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Who is friends with me? Had also done a conference with I don't know paul washer and and paul washer had done this conference with another guy and that guy you could trace the all the connections back to this

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Jesuit guy or something like that and to his view that proved that we're all tainted uh, and and he would send me private letters for a while insisting that I Uh speak out and disassociate myself from this guy who i've never even heard of And I just I started to just put all his emails in the bin

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Finally blocked him from emailing me altogether, but I think he's still out there somewhere actively trying to spread

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Negativity about a whole list of really good people. Oh, yeah, you know, it's I had uh, he got me supposedly

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I was Uh, I forget the details, but somehow I was supporting a woman who was raped

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And The the thing that he didn't realize is there's actually two people with the name

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Andrew rapaport the other happens to be like a state attorney I'm, not that guy

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You know I mean, I wouldn't mind being the other andrew rapaport andrew andrew s rapaport.

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He's a venture capitalist. I wouldn't you know mind that maybe Yeah, well, you know phil johnson is a fairly common name too

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And I think the most famous phil johnson in in uh

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Christian media circles is a musician who did all the music for jimmy swaggert And his name's all over swagger's albums and stuff and I sometimes get both thanks and criticism for the jimmy swaggert records

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Uh, so yeah, I mean there's that problem There's another guy in europe, by the way who pieced together this conspiracy theory in his mind uh because he

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He had visited grace church caused some kind of trouble. I don't know what happened but Uh, one of the security guys who works at our church

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Took a photograph of him and he knew that this was happening And so he chased the guy's car down and took a photograph of the security guy

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Put it on the internet and said does anybody know this guy? and uh

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Someone misidentified the picture and said I think that's this fellow and the person that they named is actually married

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To a member of the uh, the royal family from I won't be too specific, but a member of european royalty uh, like a distant royalty, but royalty and um

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So this guy had put together this whole conspiracy theory where he he actually did an hour and a half long video put it on the internet

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Floating this theory that the security team at grace church has ties to the the

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I think the county sheriff in los angeles and since there was a sheriff in los angeles who was uh arrested for illegal weapons sales uh, and This person who he misidentified had a tie to european royalty.

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He had this theory that our security team Were engaging in some kind of international illegal arms sales

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I mean it was the most bizarre and he was serious about it is a whole long video with With uh powerpoint slides and the whole thing so if you want to buy a

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You know anti -tank weapon See me I can hook you up with this guy

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Or at least his his look -alike Really, we laugh about that. But not only was he serious

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The truth is there are gullible people all over the internet who see something like that and think wow

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That's profound. Look at all of the all of the web of networks that this guy pieced together.

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It was all based on a wrong identification anyway, but uh It I I spent a week answering questions from people who saw that video and said what's going on here

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Yeah, and I want you know, there seems to be a trend that I notice with guys that are doing full -time discernment

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Where there seems to be a pattern and I want to talk to you about that pattern after this commercial

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18:59

All right now phil, I you have a pretty extensive library and I actually went through that library once when

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I was like Grace to you. I asked you I didn't You're not the one that took my books on hyper calvinism.

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Are you no Slew of books that disappeared. Well, if they if they've disappeared in the last like year and a half it wasn't me

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But I don't mind. I don't mind taking them if you want Yeah But I I remember

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I was talking to you I said I went through your entire bookshelf and I did not see my book What do they believe anywhere?

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Do you remember what you said as a response? Uh I probably said

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I carry it with me in my car. No, it was great You were like, oh no, I keep it at home and and your wife was like, oh, yeah

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He has more books at home and you're like, yeah, I keep it right by my bedside. I put my water on it every night

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That's right, I use it as a coaster, it's true So I hope you don't do that with the second one that you wrote the forward tube

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But I noticed when it comes to Guys that do discernment and i've tried to warn folks with this is that Even you take a guy like that guy that did the discernment notebook

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You know, he started out I think his initial kind of claim was he he exposed some things with Billy graham

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And and usually you get one or two legitimate Things that they expose and it's good.

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It's good for the body of christ that they've come out and and expose these things But once they kind of get a fame or nowadays with internet once they start getting some traffic

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It almost seems like we got to keep that going instead of being like a todd friel where he does discernment

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But does other things as well does teaching as well as discerning It seems that these guys

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Want to keep that platform going and in order to do that like the guy with the discernment blogger

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The sermon notebook I noticed what he started to do is kind of cut corners then it wasn't as being in context didn't matter as much as such as that the case with making up the thing with John, mcarthur and denying the the blood of christ and and just taking something out of context and then he went to The final stage which he just makes stuff up just blatantly make things up about people

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It seems that there's people that do full -time discernment seem to fit into those they start off with something good

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That's helpful for the body of christ, but then to cut corners they start Ignoring context and then making things up.

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Do you see that trend when people are doing full -time discernment? And is there a solution to that?

21:36

I think you had one actually in your sermon Yeah, no question about it i'm always wary of someone

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Who never produces anything other than criticism of other people, you know?

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I'm, not a anybody who's read my material online knows i'm not Sorry, i'm not averse to uh

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Legitimate criticism because there is a ton of stuff that has been sort of in into the uh

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Evangelical movement and and become very influential that really deserves to be and needs to be critiqued there we live in those times when people don't endure sound teaching and they want their ears to be tickled with fables and christians today are very susceptible to false teaching and uh foolishness that Needs desperately needs to be critiqued.

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There aren't enough people doing critiques like that But i'm always wary of someone who that's all they ever do.

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They never do anything That's it positively edifying They would never open up say first corinthians 13 and teach on what paul says about love being the greatest of the gifts

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Uh, and in fact i've heard i've heard some of the online discernment experts Actually bristle when you quote second timothy

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Uh chapter two to them and tell them look scripture tells us to be as gentle as possible when we're uh, correcting error

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They're they're not interested in being gentle. They think you have to be as uh, As harsh and sarcastic as possible or you're just not doing it, right?

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And uh, I'm, i'm always wary of people like that if you have nothing and in fact, it's amazing over the years

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Uh how many of them Ultimately fail morally or discredit themselves some other way it happens routinely

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And I think honestly the devil uses that to discredit people who who want to do legitimate critiques

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You can look at any of their Even the take the worst uh you know discernment gurus online the very worst examples of hatefulness and uh

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Hypercriticism and you'll find a lot of stuff in their material that is true and good

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I mean the notebook guy that you're talking about because he borrowed that from here and there some of it was actually very good

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But it was it was I mean, this is how satan does he disguises himself as an angel of light?

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And then blends untruth with truth and makes it impossible for people to sort it out

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And gullible people think that just because this guy is critiquing You know bad doctrine and he's right on maybe some of the big issues he's not somebody

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I have to exercise discernment on because he's the discernment expert and so I just take everything he says and and swallow it all and and so these guys have a tendency to Form their own little cult of followers who will echo and even exaggerate everything they say and one of the things that you had mentioned in your in your message was the fact that really the focus because I see what a lot of these discernment blogger guys their focus is

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Breaking the next story on get nowadays with the internet getting the traffic getting the attention

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You kind of laid out some points of what we should be doing and you had said this actually in your

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One of the things you said with what you're saying earlier is from your sermon at shepherd's conference. Paul is not

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Commending brutish or venom or malice He's not suggesting that every disagreement needs to be answered with a with sharp -tongued severity and snark um

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That's a lot of what we end up seeing but you laid out what this text gives us a solution to that So what is what's the solution to some of this?

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Uh what we're you know the the bad discernment we see online what is this text tell us we should be focused on I don't know how to answer that because I don't remember what

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I said. You're looking for something very specific. Well, I I mean you were talking about guarding the teaching was the first point really was the the thing right?

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Right. Okay. So my first point which is yeah, watch watch out for your own teaching first, right?

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Uh study to show yourself approved unto god that's the context in which uh, second timothy

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Uh 215 where paul says study to show yourself approved in other words give diligence

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Over give keep a diligent watch on your own teaching. That's the starting place and I don't know that that's like an all -purpose remedy, but if you start there and And you're concerned mostly about your own teaching and keeping it orthodox and sound and edifying I I think there'll be a natural balance to what you do and say

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That would avoid most of the criticisms you and I have talked about so far that sort of extremist always negative stuff

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If you're focused on your own teaching and making it orthodox number one

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That will automatically refute some of the errors and number two It will help keep you balanced so that you don't become enthralled with uh negativity and and harsh speech

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So you talked in your sermon a little bit about really the issue of kind of truth versus guarding yourself

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I mean there is a time and you you made a case that paul was very much against false teaching and would

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Call it out and yet He was also talking about guarding self and there's a times to just ignore it

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So right, how do we know when we should address this and when not here? Here's a my wife got to watch the sermon that you presented and she said here was her question

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So what do you do when someone's attacking you personally? You've been involved with john mcarthur for many years um and He's come under countless personal attacks

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Do you treat it the same way as you said in your message of of just teaching and kind of moving on from it?

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Is there a difference when it's false teaching versus personal attacks? How do we handle those two type of situations?

27:51

Yeah, that's a great question and it and it's the hardest thing I think to do is to refrain from unnecessary self -defense when somebody attacks me,

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I of course like anybody else my knee -jerk reaction is to uh, think of a snappy answer to humiliate the person who's just insulted me and that's where you most have to guard your tongue and and i'm not always successful at that, but Uh, you know, john mccarth is a great example of that.

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You mentioned him. Of course. He's subject to lots of criticism everywhere He won't defend himself and this was actually the apostle paul's policy as well

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He wouldn't defend himself. He the way paul said it is he I won't boast. I hate to boast

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But there were times in the book of second corinthians, for example, where he was forced to defend himself

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I just preached on this sunday. In fact second corinthians 12 the thorn in his flesh That passage starts with him

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Sort of telling a story he uses the third person So it's not immediately clear that he's talking about himself, but it becomes clear

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He is talking about himself that he was caught up into the third heaven. He had this spectacular revelation of christ

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That he seems to say elsewhere in first corinthians 15 that He he literally saw the risen christ

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So he was caught up into heaven and uh, uh If you if you read second corinthians 12

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Carefully, it seems like this happened On multiple occasions this I believe is how he was discipled and prepared to be an apostle during those years.

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He spent in Relative obscurity after his conversion. He describes that in galatians 2 Uh, and he learned the gospel and he was discipled by christ and uh,

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And yet he never talks about it. He mentions it there in second corinthians 12 But he instantly then turns to this story about the thorn in his flesh which the lord gave him to keep him humble

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And he says that's what i'll boast about not the great revelations and the trips to heaven But that which keeps me weak so that the power of god can be magnified through me because when i'm weak

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Then then christ is strong So that was paul's policy. He didn't like to defend himself

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He only defended himself when it was necessary to do that in order to defend the gospel and that was the situation in corinth

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Because these false teachers are saying we're super apostles. We are A higher level of apostleship than the apostle paul.

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So whatever he told you you can you can either You know put it down the list of priorities

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Or do away with it all together because we're going to give you truth here that he didn't give you That supersedes what you think you learn from paul so they were undermining the gospel and I I think these were very much like the false teachers in galatians that Paul is answering there.

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They were adding Legal requirements, you know for salvation. That's pretty much what these

30:52

Uh this group of pharisaical legalists that followed paul around they were they were jewish men

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Probably former pharisees according to acts 15 who um Who desperately wanted the gentiles to be put under old testament ceremonial law?

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And by teaching that they paul said they were undermining the gospel It's what galatians is all about and he was defending the doctrine of justification by faith and if you read second corinthians in its full context, you see that though there are times when paul has to refute accusations that he's uh

31:29

Disqualified in some way or another so he defends himself But he he spends the minimal amount of time doing that And the maximal amount of time teaching the truth that compacts those errors

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He's not he's not interested in self -defense as much as he is in defending the truth. That's how we ought to be

31:49

Yeah, it's it's a thing that i've noticed um you know, we've just discussed this on the board at striving for eternity is

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This idea of teaching ministries versus polemics ministries, and I think there's purposes in both um, but I think that those ministries that have

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The long haul that that have that lasting The topic of the conference for shepherd's conference is your faithfulness that have that faithfulness of Longevity, it's usually based on teaching.

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Here's something that you had said in in your sermon uh in the process You will do more to persevere and propagate the truth than you could ever do

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Through a purely polemical argumentative approach Instruction is a better way to deal with error than taunting and insults

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That's really a heart of what I see in is the difference in discernment that's being done guys like and i'll name names guys

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Like todd friel justin peters. James white yourself. John mcarthur.

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These these are guys who do way more teaching Even when I had the podcast episode with todd friel on todd said that when you do

33:03

Polemics when you do discernment, it should be teaching teach something in it, so why you know, what do you see as The goal that we should have should we be doing far more teaching than polemics or should the polemics be teaching well, there's there's a bit of both you can't teach faithfully without getting into polemics at at one point or another but if if what you enjoy is the fight the argument the the tension of uh, all of that then you probably ought to back up and think again because um

33:40

You know the What paul is commending there to timothy is teaching and he's specifically saying rather than just arguing teach people who are in error

33:50

I learned this the hard way. I mean you listed me with those examples of people who do it, right? and I feel almost like I don't deserve in that list because I I have learned this, uh by my own negative experience and you know,

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I I started a blog back in The early part of this new millennium mainly to answer

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What I saw was the danger of the emerging church back in a time when almost nobody was saying anything critical of the emerging church

34:19

And christianity day was doing cover articles saying this is the next great thing and all that so I saw

34:25

Significant dangers there and began to critique it Uh, which was fine.

34:30

A lot of what I wrote was indeed instructive teaching Not just it wasn't full of snark and nastiness, but what happens when you write a blog is you get a lot of negative comments from people who do use

34:43

Snark and nastiness and the temptation is just to argue with them, you know just to give them back to mirror their attitude and their their level of sarcasm and uh,

34:54

And I wasn't always successful in resisting the temptation to do that But that's exactly what paul is telling timothy in second timothy, too

35:01

Don't don't do that. Don't engage in mere arguments about words He is not saying that words are unimportant and he's not saying that doctrine isn't important enough to argue about because paul of all people spent

35:15

Most of well in every one of his epistles except for philemon. He is answering false doctrine

35:22

Uh, and sometimes he does it with harsh rebukes, but that's that's the rare exception Normally, it's instructive material.

35:29

His aim is to edify and instruct and even with the galatians He tends to get sharp with every now and then

35:37

And he says i'm concerned about you. He's saying to them I'm, not sure you're really truly converted yet because you're being seduced by this obvious corruption of the gospel and yet his his answer to them was full of tender pleas and instruction and you know

35:53

Every now and then a sharp comment to sort of draw them up and make them take very seriously what he was saying but uh

36:00

Galatians is one of my favorite epistles because of the clarity with which paul uses instruction to answer this dangerous error

36:10

That was so subtle that even peter for a time didn't see to seem to see the danger of it and um, so Well, I would say this what

36:19

I aspire to do is is is to use and if you listen to my sermons I think you'll find that I I touch on polemical issues every now and then but i'm not a controversialist uh when

36:30

I preach i'm i'm You know, my goal is to teach the people who sit under me so that they're equipped

36:37

To resist, uh the false doctrine. Well, i'll say this that what you just said Is a great encouragement to those of us who like you have

36:46

Failed especially as as you mentioned earlier the youthful lusts It's encouragement to know

36:52

You you're not that same guy that was blogging years ago, and you you've learned uh,

36:58

I hope I've learned sometimes but But well truthfully I am the same guy.

37:03

I I just maybe maybe a little bit better at mortifying those evil tendencies that That I have well, but that's what we need to do.

37:12

I mean we all have those tendencies right, I mean it's not like we don't it's just that We have to put those down and do what's what's better or right even though our flesh may want to do something different And it's encouraging

37:27

To me to sit here and see you saying that you still you think you're not up at that level and i'm going well I think you are it for others who as as young having those youthful lusts

37:40

Having those youthful desires it's encouraging to know. Hey, guess what you can you can grow you can mature so um, you know,

37:49

I I think one of the things that I want to talk about after the next break is the issue of Uh, the qualifications of an elder you talked about this a bit how an elder if he's

38:05

Basically dealing with these things in an inappropriate way actually could be disqualifying himself Since so much of this is a pastor's conference talking about faithfulness

38:15

I think it was an important thing and i'd like to talk about that after this break Can you answer the following questions for your children or for the person to whom you are witnessing number one?

38:26

Is the new testament reliable two? Can you explain the trinity to me three? How is jesus both god and man and a slew of other questions

38:35

You will be able to answer if you get andrew rapaport's new book What do we believe it will help you a ton get your copy at what do we believe book .com?

38:46

What do we believe book .com? And I will say that probably the best part of that book is probably the forward written by well our guest

38:56

Um, that was actually you know, I do have to I will say publicly I don't think i've said this publicly, but your your forward to that book was so insightful and I think

39:04

I told you uh privately one of the things I was so glad was most people know me as an

39:11

Evangelist and you you know me as more the discipler that I you know evangelism is part of that but your testimony that you had in there was very insightful for folks to see how

39:21

How theology helped you? Um, so Let me publicly.

39:26

Thank you for that Thank you, so you you mentioned Throughout the the sermon at shepherd's conference.

39:34

And again, this is a conference two pastors Dealing with the topic of faithfulness john mcarthur had been pastor of grace community church for 50 years

39:44

I don't know another man. That's that's been a pastor. I I spoke at that shepherd's conference

39:51

With um, alexander struck who's been at the same church for 50 years, but 10 years ago he has installed new leadership

39:58

So I don't know anybody that's been in one church for 50 years And not only was he there for 50 years, but 50 years without any public scandal

40:09

That's like almost unheard of nowadays So much of the what we're talking about when we talk about discernment when we talked about this in your message

40:19

There are ways that people disqualify themselves from eldership in the way they communicate

40:26

What were you trying to communicate with that? Well, nothing specific other than to say that This is not second.

40:34

Timothy two is not an isolated point that paul tries to make one time with timothy it it those sorts of Admonitions about gentleness.

40:44

I mean he says to the thessalonians. I treated you like a nursing mother. I mean he himself strove to be tender in his care for people came under his teaching and all that he um

40:58

And so the point I was making was this is even built into the requirements for an elder.

41:04

He's not to be pugnacious He's not to be a brawler. He's not to be someone who loves the controversy, you know, we

41:12

You can't be in ministry and utterly avoid common controversy I made that point to you

41:18

Ministry is spiritual warfare. There's controversy built right into it. But if what you like is the controversy

41:26

Then you probably don't qualify to be an elder Yeah, and and that's the thing that I see a lot of is some

41:33

It's almost uh, when you look at the qualifications, he shouldn't be a brawler And and some of these guys that's really what they are they're looking for the fight they're looking for the next argument to be made they're looking for the next conspiracy to expose or flaw in someone else

41:50

I I almost You know, we don't want to judge motives and things but it almost seems like some people not all

41:57

But some people almost want to expose the the faults in others maybe to cover up the faults of their own

42:04

Um, and you had mentioned something about that I I couldn't find the exact quote But you mentioned something about the fact that these guys the very thing that they go after it's it's like the log that's in their own eye

42:15

That's the biggest log in their eye and Is this a thing a trend where you see people who may be not all

42:24

I don't want to blanket statement everyone But for a lot of guys, is it well like that that guy joshua we're talking about, you know

42:31

Doesn't attend a church but exposes everyone else for for things that aren't even mentioned in scripture and yet clear things in scripture

42:38

He ignores he doesn't Obey And yet he could justify that and say he's exposing everyone else

42:46

Do you see that they could be covering up for their own sin by trying to expose others? Yeah, that's certainly one of the motives.

42:53

I I think it may in some cases be something just as simple as pride which Which is a sin, you know, but they they

43:00

I think there are people Who think that somehow their status is elevated if they can?

43:08

you know discredit somebody who is Respectable and so it's not like they're out there criticizing the gross errors of benny hinn all the time uh, it's that they're they're looking for someone like, you know, john macarthur or or some some

43:26

Highly the most respectable person They can think of or they can find that has anything questionable about him uh, then

43:34

You know that that's what they'll go after john piper is a good example. I people people

43:42

Respond to I mean, I there are numerous things. It's obvious that I disagree with john piper on he's a continuationist.

43:48

I'm a cessationist uh You know We have different personalities and different emphases on various things uh and there are things

43:59

I would criticize him I have criticized him for but uh, uh, in the midst of uh, some of that criticism that i've made of him i've also scolded people who

44:10

Who want to treat a gnat like it's a camel, you know, they want to treat a small

44:16

Disagreement a relatively small disagreement as if well, this is tantamount to denying the gospel and um, uh, you know, like I said every like I said really at the beginning that They get to the point where every disagreement is like a cardinal doctrine has been denied and uh

44:34

It seems to me. Dr. Piper has has probably taken the brunt of that maybe more than anybody else uh

44:41

Well, he might he might deserve that because here's here's a stark difference between you know john piper and you you

44:50

Try to emphasize and try to do all you can to be clear in your speech

44:56

And he doesn't I mean, I think the reason he's been the brunt of it is he he likes to be nuanced

45:02

He likes to I mean he writes a book desiring god and has to spend like two chapters explaining The term that he wants to use throughout of christian christian hedonism

45:12

Instead of trying to be nuanced just use the language we all accept. Yeah. Yeah.

45:18

Yeah No, and that I think is a fair criticism of him. He likes to be provocative Uh, that's a criticism.

45:24

You could throw at me too. Uh, there are times when I would be deliberately provocative I don't think that inherently is wrong in and of itself.

45:31

But when it means that you're you're being Deliberately ambiguous or vague or trying to be shocking about some

45:39

Really important issue and you end up confusing people then you have an obligation I think to be the one to straighten out that confusion instead of just uh

45:49

You know Perpetuating it and and so that's one of the things I think he could legitimately be criticized for but it doesn't mean that he's a damnable heretic and and My frustration is with people who refuse to draw that line um, they'll treat anyone who with whom they have a disagreement with they look for reasons to to try to portray that person as you know

46:16

Maybe outside the faith even and i've seen that about dr Piper people people accusing him of being a wolf in sheep's clothing and that sort of thing.

46:26

Yeah, you know there was a a discernment blogger that wrote some articles about piper

46:34

That when you actually looked the argument was oh, he believes that works are necessary to earn salvation

46:40

I had that in quotes, but the word earn was added. I couldn't find that quote anywhere one of the guys

46:46

That's the key issue. I think on which you could legitimately say He has been unfortunately ambiguous and I I feared deliberately so because you'll make a comment like uh you know

47:00

You can't be saved without works, which is not the same thing as saying your works are meritorious

47:07

Uh, it is true that you can't be saved and and be utterly devoid of good works

47:13

Uh, I mean even the thief on the cross who was saved in the dying moments of his life uh

47:18

He repented he he rebuked The other thief who was still mocking christ

47:24

He he wasn't utterly devoid of any signs of conversion and jesus recognized the signs of his conversion and assured him of heaven so You can't there is this belief out there in Christendom today that was especially popular before john macarthur wrote the gospel according to jesus

47:43

You have people writing things like I think zane hodges was the one who said it's possible to be an unbelieving believer

47:50

He was saying if you've ever believed and now you've abandoned the faith Uh, you'll still go to heaven whereas scripture says if you once profess to believe it, but you've abandoned the faith

48:00

That's proof that you were never a true believer to begin with That's second john or first john chapter 2 verse 19.

48:07

I think it is and um So So the way piper says it lends itself to confusion or at least

48:18

Needs more explanation and I feel like he doesn't really He likes the shock that it gets when he says things like that Uh, and I don't know.

48:27

I don't know his motives. So I don't want to judge that I just think his critics have been far too harsh with him and it's always worth trying to understand what somebody's saying

48:36

Before you critique it. Yeah, you know one of the one of the guys on our board of directors And and one of the speakers for striving fraternity frank mollis

48:43

He's he loves jonathan edwards He's got a background in studying jonathan edwards. And one of the things he pointed out with this whole thing was he said wait a minute

48:51

Didn't edwards use that same language in debating someone in his day? Who was trying to argue very much like many of the people that argue for the new perspective of paul and t right argue

49:04

And when I actually did the research I realized John piper who loves to study jonathan edwards is actually using edwards

49:12

Language and when that when I understood that things kind of made sense what he's trying to do

49:17

But people don't know edwards well enough to see that Yeah, well in all candor and I love jonathan edwards

49:24

He he's very helpful and perhaps the most brilliant theologian, uh ever america ever produced but uh

49:32

But there there were things that he wrote and said that were subject to Misinterpretation misunderstanding and and uh people ran with certain things

49:42

He said and went off the wrong direction including his own His own son and grandsons and so it was just a generation or so after jonathan edwards that you had the

49:52

You know new england theology That ultimately gave rise within a century to charles finney and charles finney uh

50:02

Actually revered jonathan edwards and believed that he was sort of Developing ideas that jonathan edwards had thrown out there.

50:09

I think he misunderstood edwards. Yeah, just a bit Yeah, but uh

50:15

But there were things edwards said and wrote that could have used a little more clarification. That's true of all of us.

50:20

I'm You know, the the challenge for all of us is is not to resent it when somebody points out those ambiguities

50:28

But to do the clarification yourself i've had to do that so many times i've lost count of it

50:33

It actually helps you to not only hone your theology, but your communication skills so that the next time you teach this

50:42

Hopefully you will be clear um, so Yeah, and that the discernment cult

50:49

The the sort of extreme discernmentalists, you know, these guys who are self -appointed hypercritics

50:56

They think again that every time you find an ambiguity or a or a mistake the the thing to do is

51:03

You know hit it with a nuclear option and that actually Creates more problems for the truth than it than it helps yeah, and I think that uh,

51:13

I mean you just nailed something that I hope people understand because This is

51:20

Needful for us to to take into account what someone said what they mean by what they say give give grace

51:25

That was really the a big part of your message was and what you're saying now not to use a hammer for everything but you know one of the things that you when talking about pastors and uh, and the like is um

51:39

You ended up saying this in your sermon paul himself Was at the vert vortex of controversy throughout his ministry this controversy

51:48

This was controversy over key tenets of the gospel truth He was arguing with fresh seminary graduates over, you know over the fine points of dispensational charts thing, but Yeah, he was not arguing not arguing.

52:01

Yeah, but he wasn't doing useful or useless arguments. He wasn't he wasn't in a

52:07

Online forum arguing the fine points of you know, what john piper wrote last week or whatever he was he was defending

52:15

Cardinal doctrines these were important arguments that he was in and that's what he's telling timothy. Don't don't get sidetracked by all the

52:22

Little people who want to argue or pick a fight with you or whatever You don't even have to answer those people sometimes and and in fact,

52:29

I pointed out in my message that The examples he gives people he names are hymenaeus and phileas hymenaeus was a particular

52:39

I think I used the term theological miscreant He seemed drawn to novel ideas and bizarre ones because paul actually rebukes him twice

52:48

In his epistles to timothy once he pairs him up with hymenaeus and alexander

52:54

I think that's alexander the coppersmith who paul later says did me much damage and in that context paul says i've turned him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh basically saying

53:04

I have I have exercised my Apostolic authority to summarily excommunicate him

53:11

Because his error is so grievous and so damaging And then he comes back in in second timothy 2 and he names hymenaeus again

53:19

This time he's paired up with philetus and paul is specific about what his error is.

53:25

It's kind of preterism He says the resurrection has already passed And paul says this upsets the faith of people because It was in effect a denial that of the bodily resurrection that we will be resurrected bodily from the grave

53:41

And I don't know what he was teaching or what arguments he was using to sustain it because paul simply dismisses him

53:47

He doesn't argue with his point of view. He doesn't Post any arguments against it other than the fact that it upsets the faith of people

53:55

And you might think well, that's not like paul because when he attacks a similar error in first corinthians 15

54:02

Where people were saying there is no resurrection of the body Paul meticulously dismantles that in a whole chapter the longest chapter in all of first corinthians

54:13

He takes that argument apart piece by piece. But when it comes to hymenaeus, he just dismisses him and says

54:20

Don't argue with people like this So you have to ask why what's the difference here?

54:25

Well in first corinthians He's trying to help people who were confused by false doctrine In in second timothy

54:32

He's telling timothy don't get embroiled in an argument with the guy who has already spurned correction

54:39

He's already been excommunicated. He's clearly a false teacher Don't don't give him the artificial dignity of treating his arguments as if they deserve a detailed answer just dismiss him

54:50

He's he's false and there are times when you have to do that, but you have true discernment

54:56

Needs to know the difference And I think so much of john macarthur's ministry has been in that vortex of Controversy and yet he's always risen above that because it's really a teaching based ministry

55:09

Yeah, well, and if you know john personally, he hates controversy. It's it's funny That he is such a lion in the pulpit, but in face -to -face

55:21

Conversations he he's he's just as gentle as anybody. I know even almost gentle to a fault it's very hard for him to tell people no or or You know, we've always said if somebody needs to be

55:34

Uh fired or demoted don't let john do it. He'll accidentally give the guy a promotion So and I love that about john he uh, he is uh in in every other way

55:46

I can think of john is as consistent As he can possibly be the same person you see in the pulpit is the same person you see in private

55:54

But in that one thing and that is how how dogmatic and firm and and um

56:00

You know determined he can be in confronting error. He hates Conflict and so in face -to -face

56:08

Uh encounters with people he'll do anything he can to avoid conflict and I love that about him

56:13

It's it makes him so easy to work for and work with His gentleness he could say like paul and like paul he has a reputation for correcting error and dealing

56:25

Candidly and fearlessly with errors when he's teaching But like paul he could he could say to everyone at grace church.

56:33

I've been as gentle with you as a nursing mother because he is And you know, there's one key that I want to spend some time with after this announcement that really

56:42

I think Is the essential key to your sermon and it has to do with god's sovereignty

56:48

So I want to get to that after I make this brief announcement um for folks who maybe are getting something finding some value in this

56:57

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57:27

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59:06

Donate to do that. So with that aside phil, let me give you something that uh from your message that I Really thought was whether you maybe you thought it or not the underlining

59:19

To how we do everything you said in your sermon and that is this you you mentioned this quote

59:25

It says in your sermon. You said this it is his Unshakable confidence in the sovereignty and steadfast faithfulness of god

59:35

Um that that was what you were saying paul gives paul the ability To have this gentle dignified um

59:45

Manner about him when it comes to teaching I find that there's many people who say

59:51

They believe in god's sovereignty, but when you look at their actions It doesn't look like they actually believe god's sovereign.

59:57

They're not willing to trust him They feel they got to do it on their own. They got to solve it themselves that Almost seems like that is the discernment blogger compared to As we look at what you're saying from paul what paul's trying to teach timothy

01:00:11

To let these things go and let god trust that god's going to take care of it How much does god's sovereignty play into this?

01:00:18

Uh, yeah, you know it's an inconsistency about god's sovereignty and and I would say it's not just the discernment bloggers, but this is a this is one of the

01:00:28

Facets that I would be most critical of with the with new calvinism the young wrestlers reform movement uh, and you know, even older calvinists like myself calvinists who are

01:00:41

Living and ministering in the internet Age we tend to have absorbed a great deal of pragmatism from our culture and so you have you know

01:00:52

Young wrestlers and reform guys who claim to be calvinists and they they sign a calvinist statement of faith they

01:00:59

I I think they really believe it at least intellectually, but when you watch what they do and how they how they uh,

01:01:07

Operate their churches how they function and worship, uh how they argue points and and all of that they seem to be um

01:01:17

Very concerned to to try to blend as this sort of seeker sensitive pragmatism methodology with their preaching of the doctrines of grace, so they'll preach about the sovereignty of god, but But operate their church as if if if we don't somehow tickle people's ears entertain them

01:01:35

Make them happy serve them beer while we discuss theology or whatever then

01:01:41

We have to have some pragmatic tool to attract them because the gospel itself And they would never say this

01:01:48

In fact, I don't think they believe it but they function as if it were the case that the gospel itself really isn't powerful enough to draw the elect so we have to we have to do it ourself with various other kinds of enticements and the a similar thing is true as you say with the discernment blogger who uh you know

01:02:07

The reason I even brought that up in this context is this is where paul is telling timothy You know, don't get in arguments and stuff like that and then he quotes from the old testament.

01:02:16

The lord knows who are his he's actually paraphrasing I think from uh,

01:02:21

I think it's number 16 where the the rebellion of korah and you remember the ground opened up and swallowed the conspirators with korah

01:02:30

And uh in that context there the lord says Uh, or moses says the lord knows who who are his and and he's going to deal with them and he did

01:02:39

And a person who really believes in the sovereignty of god will trust that you know As long as i'm teaching the truth refuting error as i'm commanded to do and all that I don't it's not my task to humiliate

01:02:51

Or punish the false teacher god will do that. God will take care of them in his time and in his way

01:02:58

The lord knows who are his he quotes that and right alongside it he quotes another paraphrase is another passage from number 16 where he says let everyone who names the name of christ depart from iniquity in other words get away from those

01:03:14

False teachers. It's a it's a it's a command that speaks of human responsibility and separatism, you know that you you don't uh

01:03:24

You don't embrace the false teachers, uh in the same way you would embrace uh

01:03:30

A true brother in christ and depending on the seriousness of the error you know Depart from iniquity don't have anything to do with someone who is, you know, deliberately corrupting the gospel now someone who's confused is a different thing you you correct them by instructing them rather than by You know, like I said the nuclear option

01:03:51

So it's difficult Discernment means that you have to be able to figure out The degree of error you're dealing with and how to deal with it

01:03:59

What method to use whether it be gentle which is should be our default response or whether uh, someone

01:04:07

Like hymenaeus who has already resisted correction and persisted in his error deserves a harsh rebuke and uh, we may not always agree on Even the guys who are devoted to exposing the error may not always agree on what's the right response, uh, but scripture lays out enough guidelines that We ought to know a that you don't just ignore error and b

01:04:31

You don't answer every error with the harshest possible response You know and I this is a can of worms we won't be able to do now, but when you're talking about god's sovereignty,

01:04:42

I was just thinking of All the discussions we've seen about social justice

01:04:49

Whether they're trusting in god's sovereignty, maybe we'll have to get you back discussing that Because that's a can of worms.

01:04:55

You're not going to be able to answer quickly, bro. Yeah It is you know issues like this come up, uh in a cyclical way, uh in the church 20 years ago or I'm rounding in big numbers.

01:05:07

Let's say 25 years ago. It was the uh, The pragmatism of seeker sensitivity rick warren and bill hybels were all the thing, you know and now bill hybels is basically discredited and And rick warren isn't as influential as he used to be because everybody moved on from that shallow superficial pragmatism to for a brief time the emerging church and so for a decade or so everybody was like the emerging church is the the hope of the future and it had all these liberalizing tendencies in it and When I began to critique that movement,

01:05:38

I got lots of pushback from um, you know, otherwise sound and sober evangelicals who were like Don't be don't be so critical

01:05:47

But I said no this is there is precedent in church history For where this is going to go and I said at the time

01:05:54

I don't think this is going to last 15 years It didn't even last 10 years and the movement sort of melted down And my comment then was i'm glad the movement the emerging church movement died

01:06:05

But the bad ideas that they dispersed out there are like so many dandelion seeds

01:06:10

We're going to be dealing with the fallout of that in the next four or five years in my view the social justice issue is a subset of what the emerging guys were saying and it likewise has liberalizing tendencies that Need to be addressed and when

01:06:27

I say that I get the same kind of pushback I used to get from people who thought I was being too harsh with the emergence and So my response is wait and see give it time

01:06:35

I think you're going to see my criticism is not uh, you know misguided

01:06:42

No after after the after the social justice thing ceases to be a fad it'll be replaced by something equally bad or worse and It there's never been a time in church history

01:06:56

When the devil wasn't disguising himself as an angel of light and trying to get into the church The problem is every generation thinks yeah, that's that applies to those past generations

01:07:05

We don't have to worry about false teachers. Now. I mean look at how look at how pleasing these people are and yeah, they're disguised themselves as angels of light

01:07:17

Well, let me let me do this let me uh, I want to close out with your closing comments Of of your sermon and then give you the floor with anything else you want to end with But this is how you kind of ended it

01:07:29

I think this was a great encouragement for us you said let me say this candidly as possible for the sake of my brothers who think of themselves as especially gifted in the realm of discernment or polemical theology if you want to be a guardian of truth, but do

01:07:46

But you consistently ignore Or even throw scorn on the clear message of the text you sacrifice

01:07:55

A significant amount of credibility and everything else you say if you really want to be a faithful guardian of the truth

01:08:02

You need to guard your own heart against any temptation to ignore downplay

01:08:08

Explain away or minimize the truth of what paul is saying to timothy in this chapter I think that was a great encouragement to to many.

01:08:16

I want to give you the floor Anyway, anything you want to share before we close out? Yeah, what

01:08:22

I was saying in that section you just read is that you undermine your own credibility because you're taking

01:08:27

Uh something that scripture very obviously stresses the need to be gentle in our correction of error and you are in some cases i've seen, you know discernment guys just Turn up their noses at that at that passage or the truth of it

01:08:43

They'll dismiss it in ways like say well, but you see what paul says to the galatians. Look what jesus did with the

01:08:49

With the money changers and it's okay to be harsh But paul's point is it's not always okay to be harsh

01:08:56

That's that shouldn't be our go -to response every time we see an error And he's very clear about that.

01:09:03

There's so much emphasis on that in scripture and and it's so clear to the average reader that if you purposely deny that command to be gentle and you just Constantly say now

01:09:15

I don't have to live by that stricture. That doesn't apply to me because i'm a discernment expert What you're doing is actually undermining

01:09:22

Uh the truth because you are you are dismissing such a clear precept of scripture

01:09:28

And it undermines everything you say and a rational person Is not going to see you do that and think that you're someone whose advice ought to be heeded and so everything you say that may be true is going to be

01:09:41

Dismissed by a lot of rational people because they're going to say I can't trust this guy because he doesn't he doesn't follow scripture

01:09:49

And and therefore some of the people who do the worst damage to uh legitimate efforts at exercising discernment are the people who talk the most about discernment and think they

01:10:00

They themselves are the the greatest Paragons of true discernment. They're not so Well, I I want to thank you again not only for coming on but for the message you delivered at shepherd's conference

01:10:12

It was I think very powerful. I can't wait till the the sermons get back online so we can we can share that when they do

01:10:20

I will link them in the show notes because I will go and listen to my message but uh

01:10:26

Right now you're in the number two slot uh of the messages I I would I mean john mcarthur's first message we didn't get to talk about that, but That was phenomenal kind of warning people about being the celebrity pastor the celebrity christian

01:10:42

Uh, really just saying hey, we should aspire to be a third level galley slave

01:10:47

That should be what we aspire to that was so needful in today's day

01:10:54

So I thank you for coming on and i'll remind folks if you want to help uh, Justin peters and I are headed to the philippines to basically address some issues with uh, the nar

01:11:04

And some of the word of faith that's going on there um, we're going to be doing a two weeks conference for two weeks and Basically, the churches there are going to take care of everything once we land in the philippines

01:11:17

But both justin and I have to make our way there and back and it's not exactly a cheap thing to do

01:11:23

So if there's any way you can help support that you can go to strivingforeternity .org And you can send some finances that way to help pay for that so we can kind of give some truth and discernment in uh

01:11:36

There in the philippines. You also can go to justinpeters .org Donate there so for justin's side of his flights

01:11:43

So you can help both of us so we can get over there and kind of correct some error that is there

01:11:49

So until next week, I think next week what we're going to do is while I was at shepherd's conference I got some interviews with men like daryl harris someone that um,

01:11:58

I think phil may know that name I think he just hired him and so um, but we have daryl harris

01:12:05

I have um, alexander struck And a couple others so we'll probably play those

01:12:11

Give you some different bits of those in the next couple of weeks of the rap report So until then strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of god

01:12:21

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