Discernment and Disqualification with Phil Johnson from Shepherds Conference

Today on the rap report we're going to have a very special guest. Just saw him recently at the shepherds conference and he had one of the best messages at shepherds conference. Dealing with well many of us who are in the internet and many of us who like to.

Somewhat do discernment ministries in a way and we're going to get to him in just a moment.

Introduction to Discernment, Internet Criticism, and the Shepherds Conference

Welcome to the rap report with andrew rap report where we provide biblical interpretations and applications. This is the ministry of striving for eternity and the christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church Go to striving for eternity .org.

All right, we welcome to the rap report brother phil johnson. And I have to say that yours was in my opinion the second best message only because To top john mcarthur's first message when he opened the conference with was hard to beat.

That was probably the best. You're ranking me way too high. I I you know. You know who blew me away was mike riccardi. And he's also a new jersey. I I don't know if you knew that but he's a jersey boy.

And uh, I thought he had the most a stunning and profound message in the whole conference like you say next to john.

But uh wow. Well, see I can't compare his because I was not when he preached I was not around. Um, so he his was one of the ones i'm waiting to hear when it gets on to uh, the back online.

When you do hear it, you'll definitely move me down the list.

I don't know. This was a pretty hard message to move down phil.

And if you don't move me down after hearing mike's I will question your discernment.

Well with that you you preached out of second timothy, too and it was I mean, I I think it was so super helpful because we do have issues with people online on twitter on facebook who Fancy themselves as if they're pastors fancy themselves as if they're doing discernment and.

You know recently on an earlier podcast episode. I had todd freo on and Todd did an outstanding job of laying out Six points he thinks of before he is going to name someone publicly or address an issue.

Which is helpful for us because there are times that we should not mention names. There's times where we need to mention names as you mentioned in your sermon paul did. There's a time and a place to do that but Let me first ask this question of you.

How much do you think the internet? has amplified These discernment bloggers. And I know you and I go back to the guy with the discernment notebook. I forget his name. Back in the what was the 80s when he used to have that notebook?

Um. And Now I I see a lot more of that than I used to see back then. Do you think the internet has played into that?

The Internet, the Discernment Notebook, and the Rise of Hypercritical Criticism

Yeah, i've forgotten that guy's name too. Uh, but you're right. He what he did was, uh, He was a compiler of other people's information most of the stuff Uh, he collected in that notebook other people had Had done the work and he compiled it all parts of it were helpful.

But parts of it were just hyper critical and you could tell by the way It was constructed that he just went looking for negative comments and negative info. On anybody who was famous. I mean anybody who was a respectable respected Uh evangelical he had an entry on them with everything negative that had ever been said about them and uh, yeah, I thought that was most unhelpful and in fact, uh, Uh was pretty critical of him at the time when I first got on the internet then I noticed that that sort of thing proliferated and let me back up and say too that passage second timothy that uh, it was the second half of Second timothy too.

I I said in my message I chose it Uh, because it poses a certain challenge to me. It steps on my toes. There are times when uh, I think I look back and read something I wrote, you know Some some time previously I was going to say years ago, but it isn't all in the years past uh, my besetting sin is Uh a tongue that may be too sharply honed for sarcasm and every now and then i'll see something I wrote before and and you know kind of be ashamed that I was so curt or Or so sharp tongued and we're not supposed to default to that.

There are times When even scripture says false teachers deserve a sharp rebuke jesus Rebuked the pharisees with very harsh words. He turned over their tables and all so it would be wrong to say as I think most people think That it's always bad to use any kind of sharp rebuke or or be harsh in your criticism.

Sometimes that is appropriate. But I think what paul is telling timothy and second timothy too is don't don't make that your default Reaction to everything you disagree with don't don't just automatically Uh pound every ant with a sledgehammer you you have to you have to sort of Accommodate your tone to the seriousness of the mistake That you're dealing with.

I find it's much easier for me to do that when i'm actually talking to someone. Than when i'm writing out my criticism and you can't you can't it's not as easy to convey tone or attitude in writing and You know my my writing style is Not wordy not I don't fill everything with emojis.

It's not always easy to discern to discern my attitude and So that is that is a that is a sin I grapple with. That's why I chose that passage I wasn't picking on. You know any any individual in particular and saying, you know.

Try trying to That we all know people who fit that category. Actually what I said applies to any number of people on the internet. I mentioned this before there are these nests of uh self-appointed discernment experts who lots of what they say may be good and and Valid, but it's not helpful because it's blended with so much stuff that is over critical or over harsh.

That they actually do a disservice to the gift of discernment to the the ministry of discernment because they make. They make it so odious for people to read criticism and have to filter out what's What's overstated what's exaggerated what's necessary?

How harsh should I how harshly should I respond to this and and I think you're right because of the internet because the internet gives Every disgruntled person a big megaphone that you know reaches the whole world uh.

That sort of attitude where people try to outdo each other to find the most critical thing about the most respectable person and it's like there's a contest to do that who. Who can we embarrass that everybody would be shocked if we embarrassed this guy because he's respectable because he's been faithful because he's preached the gospel.

For years and now we found this thing. We disagree with him on let's magnify it. And that's the opposite of what scripture says. Love should be inclined to do.

Well, it's you know interesting because i'm i'm very guilty of um being very terse when I type and people often assume Motives that aren't there. One of the things with me. As you know, I grew up a jewish and we grew up debating.

That's just it's a way of life. That's probably why so many jewish people become lawyers. It's The the ultimate job for a jewish person they get paid to debate. But there's no emotion in debating. When the way that I was raised at least you don't have the emotion there, but so many people assume that.

One of the things you said in your message though I found very very helpful is you brought up the term youthful lusts and you You did address that it deals with The passions lustful passions that most people think of when they think of that.

You had more that you put into that that I think is really helpful for the discussion of Discernment and people that are online. How is it that you saw that term defined? Well, it's because of the context.

That whole passage second half of second timothy starts and ends with paul warning timothy not to be quarrelsome and it stands out it sticks out hugely to me because Normally you hear paul Telling timothy to be courageous be a good soldier.

Fight the good fight, you know. It's a lot of militant language and a lot of encouragement to timothy. Who if you'd read between the lines. It seems timothy Was a timid fellow. He wasn't as he certainly wasn't as bold as the apostle paul who is but uh paul just Peppered everything he ever wrote to timothy with Encouragements to be bold to be willing to suffer to be willing to say the hard thing or take the hard stance.

And right in the middle of this Is this half of a chapter that that warns against being? Argumentative and harsh. And it says correct people who have false doctrine, but do it with gentleness. You may win them over he says.

And uh, uh, so it's in that context that he says youthful lusts and I have to think one of the lusts He he had in mind and it is a youthful passion that trips us all up. Is that sort of adolescent itching for an argument about everything, you know?

Uh, that's one of the youthful passions that clearly that paul is telling timothy to avoid because that command is sandwiched between warnings not to pursue fruitless arguments. Not to pursue arguments over mere words.

Uh and not to be harsh.

Yeah, I will say I think john macarthur is probably as bold as paul, but if we were going to look for somebody He might be there. You know, you brought up the issue that these a lot of these Bloggers podcasters discernment people like the guy with the sermon notebook guys who have youtube channels where they're going to call everybody out and They're self-appointed.

Um, we actually we were talking about one who you and I both Uh who I know i've met personally, but you know. Uh, who is a self boy? He's never attended a church that I know of. Can't find a church that holds to his standard, but he feels he's qualified to call John, macarthur out believes justin peters isn't saved which is crazy if you know, justin peters.

But Why is it that so many of these people you mentioned the self-appointed? That seems to be consistent with many of these so-called discernment people.

Self-Appointed Discernment Experts and the Danger of Constant Negativity

Yeah, well, it's I part of that youthful passion that makes people argumentative is the this sort of notion that I have to prove myself right by Discrediting everybody else and there's this heady feeling that they get from doing that.

The problem is then if you become that hyper critical, you're going to be critical of everyone close to you as well. You'll treat your friends like you treat your enemies. You will uh, you'll find it very hard to find a church where Everything is done.

Just the way you would want it to be because let's face it I don't know anybody who who goes to a church like that. Any of us could point to certain things that are either done or said or taught or Believed by people in positions of teaching authority or whatever in our churches.

That maybe we don't quite agree with or whatever. And if you become so picky That every small disagreement is the same as every big disagreement and every friend Needs to be treated the same as the as every enemy just to prove that you're you you're not Partial to anyone you're not preferring your friends.

Uh, then you're you're literally going to start to treat everybody like an enemy and treat every disagreement as if it's a Some cardinal doctrine that you're defending and you will be forced by your own misguided convictions to separate from people whom you ought to fellowship with.

And uh, which means you won't ultimately you won't be able to partner with any church or fellowship or belong to any church. Uh because you essentially cut yourselves off yourself off from that kind of fellowship.

And so there are tons of people like that they're the and and some of them are fairly well known, you know discernment experts on the internet who As far as we know don't belong to or attend any church.

Just a little group of people in their living room and usually that's their family who are required to be there. And they might call that church, but it isn't really a church.

Yeah, I mean we've you and I have dealt with uh, I forget the guy's name, uh who used to email us like 30 page emails.

Uh, so he's the guy from europe, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, and and you know, that's another tendency that these guys had that guy. Would find any sort of tenuous connection? Uh, like, you know six degrees of kevin bacon and and ty anybody he wanted to to some kind of error.

Uh, he sent out countless emails uh Accusing me of having some ties to a guy in europe who had I think was a roman catholic or something like that a guy I never even heard of because somebody Who is friends with me?

Had also done a conference with I don't know paul washer and and paul washer had done this conference with another guy and that guy you could trace the all the connections back to this Jesuit guy or something like that and to his view that proved that we're all tainted uh, and and he would send me private letters for a while insisting that I uh speak out and Disassociate myself from this guy who i've never even heard of and I just I started to just Put all his emails in the bin.

Finally blocked him from emailing me altogether, but I think he's still out there somewhere actively trying to spread.

Negativity about a whole list of really good people. Oh, yeah, you know, it's I had. Uh, he got me supposedly I was. Uh, I forget the details, but somehow I was supporting a woman who was raped. And the the thing that he didn't realize is there's actually two people with the name Andrew rapaport.

The other happens to be like a state attorney. I'm, not that guy. You know, yeah, I mean I wouldn't mind being the other andrew rapaport. Andrew andrew s rapaport. He's a venture capitalist. I wouldn't you know mind that maybe.

Yeah, well, you know phil johnson is a fairly common name too. And I think the most famous phil johnson in in uh Christian media circles is a musician who did all the music for jimmy swagger. And his name's all over swagger's albums and stuff and I sometimes get both thanks and criticism for the jimmy swagger records.

Uh, so yeah, I mean there's that problem. There's another guy in europe, by the way who pieced together this conspiracy theory in his mind uh, because he He had visited grace church caused some kind of trouble.

I don't know what happened, but Uh, one of the security guys who works at our church Took a photograph of him and he knew that this was happening. And so he chased the guy's car down and took a photograph of the security guy Put it on the internet and said does anybody know this guy?

And uh. Someone misidentified the picture and said I think that's this fellow and the person that they named is actually married to a member of the uh, the royal family from I won't be too specific, but a member of european royalty, uh, like a distant royalty, but royalty and um.

So this guy had put together this whole conspiracy theory where he he actually did an hour and a half long video put it on the internet. Floating this theory that the security team at grace church has ties to the the I think the county sheriff in los angeles and since there was a A sheriff in los angeles who was arrested for illegal weapons sales and This person who he misidentified had a tie to european royalty.

He had this theory that our security team Were engaging in some kind of international illegal arms sales I mean it was the most bizarre and he was serious about it. It was a whole long video with With uh powerpoint slides and the whole thing.

So if you want to buy a uh, you know anti-tank weapon See me I can hook you up with this guy. Or at least his his look-alike. Really we laugh about that. But not only was he serious the truth is there are gullible people all over the internet who see something like that and think wow, that's profound look at all of the All of the web of networks that this guy pieced together.

It was all based on a wrong Identification anyway, but uh. It was I I spent a week answering questions from people who saw that video and said what's going on here.

Yeah, and I want you know, there seems to be a trend that I notice with guys that are doing full-time discernment. Where there seems to be a pattern and I want to talk to you about that pattern after this commercial.

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All right now phil, uh, you have a pretty extensive library and I actually went through that library once when I was like Grace to you. I asked you I didn't.

You're not the one that took my books on hyper calvinism. Are you no?

Slew of books that disappeared. Well, if they if they've disappeared in the last like year and a half, it wasn't me. But I don't mind. I don't mind taking them if you want. Yeah. But I I remember I was talking to you I said I went through your entire bookshelf and I did not see my book.

What do they believe. Anywhere? Do you remember what you said as a response?

Uh I probably said I carry it with me in my car. No, it was great.

You were like, oh no, I keep it at home and and your wife was like, oh, yeah. He has more books at home and you're like, yeah, I keep it right by my bedside. I put my water on it every night.

That's right, I use it as a coaster. It's true.

So I hope you don't do that with the second one that you wrote the forward tube. But I noticed when it comes to guys that do discernment and i've tried to warn folks with this is that Even you take a guy like that guy that did the discernment notebook You know, he started out.

I think his initial kind of claim was he he exposed some things with Billy graham and and usually you get one or two legitimate Things that they expose and it's good. It's good for the body of christ that they've come out and and exposed these things.

But once they kind of get a fame or nowadays with internet once they start getting some traffic. It almost seems like we got to keep that going instead of being like a todd friel where he does discernment.

But does other things as well does teaching as well as discerning. It seems that these guys Want to keep that platform going and in order to do that like the guy with the discernment blogger Discernment notebook.

I noticed what he started to do is kind of cut corners then it wasn't as being in context didn't matter as much as such as that the case with making up the thing with John, mcarthur and denying the the blood of christ and and just taking something out of context and then he went to The final stage which he just makes stuff up just blatantly make things up about people.

It seems that there's people that do full-time discernment seem to fit into those they start off with something good. That's helpful for the body of christ, but then to cut corners they start Ignoring context and then making things up.

Do you see that trend when people are doing full-time discernment? And is there a solution to that? I think you had one actually in your sermon.

Guarding Your Own Teaching Before Critiquing Others

Yeah, no question about it i'm always wary of someone Who never produces anything other than criticism of other people, you know? I'm, not a anybody who's read my material online knows i'm not. Sorry, i'm not averse to uh Legitimate criticism because there is a ton of stuff that has been sort of in into the uh Evangelical movement and and become very influential that really deserves to be and needs to be critiqued there we live in those times when people don't endure sound teaching and they want their ears to be tickled with fables and christians today are very susceptible to false teaching and uh foolishness that Needs desperately needs to be critiqued.

There aren't enough people doing critiques like that. But i'm always wary of someone who that's all they ever do. They never do anything. That's it positively. Edifying they would never open up say first corinthians 13 and teach on what paul says about love being the greatest of the gifts.

Uh, and in fact i've heard i've heard some of the online discernment experts Actually bristle when you quote second timothy Uh chapter two to them and tell them look scripture tells us to be as gentle as possible when we're uh, correcting error.

They're they're not interested in being gentle. They think you have to be as uh, As harsh and sarcastic as possible or you're just not doing it, right? And uh, I'm, i'm always wary of people like that if you have nothing and in fact, it's amazing over the years.

Uh how many of them? Ultimately fail morally or discredit themselves some other way it happens routinely. And I think honestly the devil uses that to discredit people who who want to do legitimate critiques.

You can look at any of their. Even the take the worst uh you know discernment gurus online the very worst examples of hatefulness and uh Hypercriticism and you'll find a lot of stuff in their material that is true and good.

I mean the notebook guy that you're talking about because he borrowed that from here and there some of it was actually very good. But it was it was I mean, this is how satan does he disguises himself as an angel of light?

And then blends untruth with truth and makes it impossible for people to sort it out. And gullible people think that just because this guy is critiquing. You know bad doctrine and he's right on maybe some of the big issues he's not somebody I have to exercise discernment on because he's the discernment expert and so I just take everything he says and and swallow it all and and so these guys have a tendency to Form their own little cult of followers who will echo and even exaggerate everything they say.

And one of the things that you had mentioned in your in your message was the fact that really the focus because I see what a lot of these discernment blogger guys their focus is Breaking the next story on get nowadays with the internet getting the traffic getting the attention.

You kind of laid out some points of what we should be doing and you had said this actually in your. One of the things you said with what you were saying earlier is from your sermon at shepherd's conference.

Paul is not commending brutish or venom or malice. He's not suggesting that every disagreement needs to be answered with a with sharp-tongued severity and snark. Um. That's a lot of what we end up seeing but you laid out what this text gives us a solution to that.

So what is what's the solution to some of this. Uh what we're you know, the the bad discernment we see online. What is this text? Tell us we should be focused on.

Teaching First, Tone Second, and the Call to Guard Your Own Heart

I don't know how to answer that because I don't remember what I said. You're looking for something very specific.

Well, I I mean you were talking about guarding the teaching was the first point. Really was the the thing, right?

Right. Okay. So my first point which is yeah, watch watch out for your own teaching first, right? Uh study to show yourself approved unto god that's the context in which uh, second timothy Uh 215 where paul says study to show yourself approved.

In other words give diligence over give keep a diligent watch on your own teaching. That's the starting place and I don't know that that's like an all-purpose remedy, but if you start there and uh, And you're concerned mostly about your own teaching and keeping it orthodox and sound and edifying I I think there'll be a natural balance to what you do and say.

That would avoid most of the criticisms you and I have talked about so far that sort of extremist always negative stuff. If you're focused on your own teaching and making it orthodox number one That will automatically refute some of the errors and number two It will help keep you balanced so that you don't become enthralled with uh negativity and and harsh speech.

So you talked in your sermon a little bit about really the issue of kind of truth versus guarding yourself. I mean there is a time and you you made a case that paul Was very much against false teaching and would call it out and yet He was also talking about guarding self and there's a times to just ignore it.

So right, how do we know when we should address this and when not. And here's a. My wife got to watch the sermon that you presented and she said here was her question. So what do you do when someone's attacking you personally?

You've been involved with john mcarthur for many years um and He's come under countless personal attacks. Do you treat it the same way as you said in your message of of just teaching and kind of moving on from it?

Is there a difference when it's false teaching versus personal attacks? How do we handle those two type of situations?

Responding to Personal Attacks Without Self-Defense

Yeah, that's a great question and it and it's the hardest thing I think to do is to refrain from unnecessary self-defense when somebody attacks me, I of course like anybody else my knee-jerk reaction is to think of a snappy answer to humiliate the person who's just insulted me and that's where you most have to guard your tongue and and i'm not always successful at that, but.

Uh, you know john mccarth is a great example that you mentioned him. Of course. He's subject to lots of criticism everywhere. He won't defend himself and this was actually the apostle paul's policy as well.

He wouldn't defend himself. He the way paul said it is he I won't boast. I hate to boast. But there were times in the book of second corinthians, for example, where he was forced to defend himself. I just preached on this sunday.

In fact second corinthians 12 the thorn in his flesh. That passage starts with him. Sort of telling a story he uses the third person. So it's not immediately clear that he's talking about himself, but it becomes clear.

He is talking about himself that he was caught up into the third heaven. He had this spectacular revelation of christ. That he seems to say elsewhere in first corinthians 15 that He he literally saw the risen christ.

So he was caught up into heaven and uh, uh. If you if you read second corinthians 12 Carefully, it seems like this happened. On multiple occasions this I believe is how he was discipled and prepared to be an apostle during those years.

He spent in Relative obscurity after his conversion. He describes that in galatians 2. Uh, and he learned the gospel and he was discipled by christ and uh,. And yet he never talks about it. He mentions it there in second corinthians 12.

But he instantly then turns to this story about the thorn in his flesh which the lord gave him to keep him humble. And he says that's what i'll boast about not the great revelations and the trips to heaven.

But that which keeps me weak so that the power of god can be magnified through me because when i'm weak. Then then christ is strong. So that was paul's policy. He didn't like to defend himself. He only defended himself when it was necessary to do that in order to defend the gospel and that was the situation in corinth.

Because these false teachers are saying we're super apostles. We are A higher level of apostleship than the apostle paul. So whatever he told you you can you can either. You know put it down the list of priorities.

Or do away with it all together because we're going to give you truth here that he didn't give you. That supersedes what you think you learn from paul so they were undermining the gospel and I I think these were very much like the false teachers in galatians that Paul is answering there.

They were adding Legal requirements, you know for salvation. That's pretty much what these Uh this group of pharisaical legalists that followed paul around they were they were jewish men. Probably former pharisees according to acts 15 who um.

Who desperately wanted the gentiles to be put under old testament ceremonial law? And by teaching that they paul said they were undermining the gospel. It's what galatians is all about and he was defending the doctrine of justification by faith and if you read second corinthians in its full context, you see that though there are times when paul has to refute accusations that he's uh Disqualified in some way or another so he defends himself.

But he he spends the minimal amount of time doing that. And the maximal amount of time teaching the truth that compacts those errors. He's not he's not interested in self-defense as much as he is in defending the truth.

That's how we ought to be.

Yeah, it's it's a thing that i've noticed. Um you know, we've just discussed this on the board at striving for eternity is This idea of teaching ministries versus polemics ministries, and I think there's purposes in both.

Um, but I think that those ministries that have the long haul that that Have that lasting. Well the topic of the conference for shepherds conference is your faithfulness. That have that faithfulness of.

Longevity, it's usually based on teaching. Here's something that you had said in in your sermon uh in the process. You will do more to persevere and propagate the truth than you could ever do. Through a purely polemical argumentative approach.

Instruction is a better way to deal with error than taunting and insults. That's really a heart of. What I see in is the difference in discernment that's being done. Guys like and i'll name names guys.

Like todd friel justin peters. James white yourself. John mcarthur. These these are guys who do way more teaching. Even when I had the podcast episode with todd friel on todd said that when you do Polemics when you do discernment, it should be teaching.

Teach something in it. So why? You know, what do you see as. The goal that we should have should we be doing far more teaching than polemics or should the polemics be teaching.

Polemics Must Be Subordinate to Teaching

Well, there's there's a bit of both you can't teach faithfully without getting into polemics at at one point or another but if if what you enjoy is the fight the argument the the tension of uh, all of that then you probably ought to back up and think again because um you know the What paul is commending there to timothy is teaching and he's specifically saying rather than just arguing.

Teach people who are in error. I learned this the hard way. I mean listed me with those examples of people who do it right and I feel almost like I don't deserve in that list because I I have learned this, uh by my own negative experience and you know, I I started a blog back in The early part of this new millennium mainly to answer.

What I saw was the danger of the emerging church back in a time when almost nobody was saying anything critical of the emerging church. And christianity day was doing cover articles saying this is the next great thing and all that.

So I saw Significant dangers there and began to critique it. Uh, which was fine. A lot of what I wrote was indeed instructive teaching. Not just it wasn't full of snark and nastiness, but what happens when you write a blog is You get a lot of negative comments from people who do use Snark and nastiness and the temptation is just to argue with them, you know just to give them back to mirror their attitude and their their level of sarcasm and uh, And I wasn't always successful in resisting the temptation to do that.

But that's exactly what paul is telling timothy in second timothy, too. Don't don't do that. Don't engage in mere arguments about words. He is not saying that words are unimportant and he's not saying that doctrine isn't important enough to argue about because paul of all people spent Most of well in every one of his epistles except for philemon.

He is answering false doctrine. Uh, and sometimes he does it with harsh rebukes, but that's that's the rare exception. Normally, it's instructive material. His aim is to edify and instruct and even with the galatians He tends to get sharp with every now and then.

And he says i'm concerned about you. He's saying to them I'm, not sure you're really truly converted yet because you're being seduced by this obvious corruption of the gospel and yet his his answer to them was full of tender pleas and Instruction and you know every now and then a sharp comment to sort of draw them up and make them Take very seriously what he was saying but uh galatians is one of my favorite epistles because of the clarity with which paul uses instruction to answer this dangerous error that was so subtle that even Peter for a time didn't see to seem to see the danger of it and um, so.

Well, I would say this what I aspire to do is is is to use and if you listen to my sermons I think you'll find that I I touch on polemical issues every now and then but i'm not a controversialist uh when I preach i'm i'm.

You know, my goal is to teach the people who sit under me so that they're equipped. To resist, uh the false doctrine. Well, i'll say this that what you just said.

Is a great encouragement to those of us who like you have Failed especially as as you mentioned earlier the youthful lusts. It's encouragement to know. You you're not that same guy that was blogging years ago, and you you've learned uh, I hope I've learned sometimes but.

But well truthfully I am the same guy. I I just maybe maybe a little bit better at mortifying those.