Covenant Theology, Doctrines of Grace, Upcoming Conference w/ Jeffrey Rice @openairtheology3783

Well, hello and welcome to the apologetic dog. We are live and I don't do this very often

But I hope that changes in the future because I really want to be more engaging with the social media outlets and platforms of things that God has put in our

Resource box and so thank you for tuning in I'm really looking forward to this episode today.

If you don't if you're new to the apologetic dog This is an apologetics ministry and embedded in the logo.

You see first Timothy 6 verse 20 Where Paul says to Timothy Oh Timothy guard the deposit that's been entrusted to you and avoid a reverent babble

And false knowledge that contradicts itself. And so that's kind of the heart Behind the logo and the apologetic dog is that we are

Christians called to guard the gospel of grace and also serve at 12 -5 church in Jonesboro, Arkansas as a pastor and elder and so 12 -5 church just simply means that even though individually we are

One of another we are one together in the body of Christ and so if you're in the

Northeast Arkansas area, please look us up We have a church website and we'd love for you to come

Be a part of our fellowship and we'd love to meet you. And so I've been I've been tasked

This evening to cover a number of different topics and so I can't do it alone. I have a special guest with me

Jeffrey Rice, how are you doing, sir? I'm doing well, man. Thanks for having me on Man, we are overdue.

We have been trying to connect with the connect having you on for a while And so it's so good.

I've been seeing all the Bibles that you post online. I'm like one of these days. I want one

Yeah Tonight could also be the war of the beards. Oh, well, you got me there concede

Now I will say about two weeks ago. Jeff. My beard was about right here. So I could have maybe had a little bit more competition

Having mine up this Saturday, so and it's so it's so glorious though It's a good link well

Hey Jeff if you don't mind Tell the audience a little bit more about who you are your ministry and how people can kind of get a hold of you and Listen to some of your content

Yeah, so my name is Jeff Jeff Rice, I'm a Christian husband father pastor

Podcaster Specifically in that order. So I have an open. I have a

YouTube channel It's more of a show than it is a podcast. So it's an open -air theology and I'm a co -host.

I got a Brayden Patterson and Haps Addison is my co -host and also pastor a church in,

Telehoma, Tennessee Called Covenant Reform Baptist Church. I'm a street preacher

Co -owner of post -gender breast slugs Bible rebinding for the most part.

That's probably how people know me. I Was fortunate enough to get one of my

Bibles in the hands of. Dr. James White and he has become a good friend of mine, and he's been probably the the biggest mouthpiece in my business, right so Before meeting up with James why my backlog was like three weeks out and now

I'm you know, if you want a Bible done for me, it'll probably take till June to make it happen.

Oh Man Well, of course, you know, my home is I try to fit a man, right?

Yeah, well, hey, dr. White loves your Bibles. He talks about all the time. He hypes you up How many can you make like did you say four or eight in a week?

I mean, it's it's a I've been doing 12 a week and That's 45 50 hours a week and then

Eight o 'clock usually all from Monday to Thursday at eight o 'clock

I'll study the Bible and prepare my message for the Lord's Day So so from eight till midnight sometimes one o 'clock in the morning then

I'm back up I try to get up at six. It don't always happen and start, you know, but I'm hopefully start my day working at seven and Yeah, I stay busy man and plus, you know,

I got a lot going on got a lot of irons in the fire I mean pastoring as you know, it's it's you know, it takes a lot out of you and and just You know,

I don't know how long your sermons are. But my sermon is usually last anywhere from 50 minutes to an hour

For me 40 minutes is kind of the sweet spot, but yeah don't limit it Pastor Nathan, he's the other elder

I started with here at 12 five he's had some of those sermons touching the hour mark and Everyone's got see sweating a little bit.

You're like, hey, it's all good I hear they're like legendary.

They're like, you know, yeah hour and a half mark top stuff Well, hey you something else you said that I think is really intriguing that I'd love to be a part of one day

It's street preaching. So how did that kind of come about? Yes, um, so I was originally ordained in like the

Assemblies of God Churches of God context and And And there was a so Let me jump back for a minute.

So I was saved through Ray Comfort's preaching. Mmm, right Ray Comfort preaching the open -air and That's what

God used to bring me to himself but um Then I started pursuing ministry and I got ordained and I was at a gas pump one day pumping gas and I saw this

Hispanic guy walking across the street to get to a bar and he was in and he got ran over by a car and a car kept going and I just and at this time

I was also preaching in a jail And so I was pumping the gas I just left the pump inside the car and I just took off run into the guy in the middle of the road

Surrounded in blood. He didn't his jaw wasn't even on his face It was awful and I just started he was knocked out like he

I knew he wasn't dead. He was knocked out I just laid my hands on him started praying and he woke up and I preached the gospel to him

And I just told him, you know, if he'd call upon the name of the Lord God would save him and you could hear gurgling and like blood was just like spouting out and but but but in his throat you could hear him clearly say hallelujah and And I just knew right then man,

I needed to be on the streets and so this was probably 2011 and And I just found someone that was passionate about it with me

I'm named Jamie Terry and we just started practicing with each other first, you know, like witnessing and then and Then we met up with a guy by the name of John Coble who was already doing street preaching so me and Jamie was doing street evangelism and John was doing preaching and we kind of helped

John with the street evangelism aspect of It and he helped us with street preaching gave us the courage and stuff

And so I've been street preaching since 2011 and and I'll tell you what man

If I don't do it, I start getting shaky like I start jittering like it's my passion

To be out on the streets preaching the gospel But that was the year I graduated high school,

I don't know how that makes you feel Well, I'm so glad Well street preaching maybe gets a bad rap sometimes and I've seen a lot of street preaching done wrong

And so the way I look at it It's a voice Heralding the truth the truthfulness of the gospel and we trust

God with that and I love Ray Comfort how he is Engaging with people and his street preaching ministry and I really like Todd Friel He's he's set up microphone stands and has engaged with the public in a very kind and loving way

Standing on truth. And so that should be the heart and goal and I live in a college town or a

University town a issue and so one of my heart goals Hopefully next year.

We'll see. I got a lot of plans coming up in 2024 Jeff, but I'd love to go on a issues campus and be able to interview students about their worldview about you know, philosophical questions, but always looking to get to the gospel and hearing their thoughts about them and so That's one of many plans.

So I'm have to call you up and get some advice on street preaching and and all the rest

Well So a passage and it's kind of like the same way

I do whenever I'm preaching I you know, I just kind of tell people where I'm at read the verse and I'll find like two or three words in there that correlates with the gospel explain the words and bring it in and You know, it works

Absolutely, I just want to give a shout out This week I had a family come to our church this week who heard me preaching

Saturday and Sunday they were at the church Real quick, I just want to give a shout out to Michelle She's been following the apologetic ministry for a while now.

And so that's something that Jeff I'll know You know kind of how you feel but I I get so much support from people online

Emailing asking questions. And so to me, that's all that fills my tank back up Because I know our labors for the

Lord are never in vain and a lot of the a Lot of the people I've crossed paths with like the the

Church of Christ There's a lot of negative feedback out there and you know, that's expected You got to have some thick skin whether you're from street preaching or you're doing debates online and and whatever have you but Just having brothers and sisters in the

Lord Support through prayer through other means fills me right back up. So I hear

Now you said street preaching you can't go very long without Doing that you start kind of getting the itch if you will

So do you have kind of a schedule of when you plan to go street preaching how often? Yeah, I do it every other weekend.

I kind of devote one weekend to my family to You know, I give them one

Saturday. Um, and then the next Saturday I go out and to the my community So, you know, so, you know where they're permitting right like I don't mind preaching in the rain

But if it's you know, 20 degrees and it's raining, you know My first priority when it comes to that is

I got to be in the pulpit Sunday And I can't let what takes place Saturday interfere with Sunday So when you're not street preaching you like to do other things like plan conferences

So Come in February Yeah, so February The the 21st we're having a pre -conference on the dangers of full preterism in which

I thought that this was You know very important because I know that me personally when

I come to the understanding of partial preterism It was it was very tempting to to fall down that slurpery slope because there's a lot of like like preterism

It answers a lot of questions at surface level But whenever you dig deeper you realize that those surface level answers are not correct and so and of course,

I'm a partial preterist and But I think that we have to be real careful whenever we're diving into that subject.

And so I wanted to have something Focusing on the dangers of what happens if you do fall down that slippery slope right, and and then also the following next few days we are going to be having a

Main conference will be on why Calvinism and there's there's been many conferences about Calvinism so that's not really the goal here

You can jump on YouTube and figure out what the doctrines of grace is But the goal of this conference is is is why is it important?

Why should a church adopt it and how is it lived out not only in in church?

but in our lives and then I'm also hoping to on -site film a documentary on Why Calvinism?

And there's gonna be a lot of really good questions that the speakers will answer and and and you're gonna be a part of that Documentary as well.

I Love it. I want I want the hard questions Yeah Well, I'll say this, you know,

I live in I guess we both live in the south, but Jonesboro, Arkansas There is a hostility against against reform doctrine, especially the doctrines of grace

And there's so many theories about Why that is because there was an early resurgence in the early 20s that kind of swept the the

Western Hemisphere But it kind of skipped over my town and I have a guess maybe you can shed some on this too

But are you familiar with the name Adrian Rogers? Yeah, absolutely from Bellevue and I'm pretty sure his shadow was cast over where I live and He did not have kind things to say about Calvinism and reform right like to me

I want to be charitable towards Armenian philosophy that affirms

That we are saved by faith alone and to even though the provisionist crowd traditional

Baptist that you know We can sharpen one another but we we should be standing firm on the gospel of grace and so I don't know if Adrian was that charitable with With Professing Calvinist.

So anyway, I think that's why my hometown very hostile to the doctrines of grace But you know, who's the most hostile to the doctrines of grace

Church of Christ? But As I've interacted more and more with Church of Christ.

It's reform thought that they don't have a category for And so and I don't say that mean but I'm just saying a lot of some of my debates and conversations with people like to This is the thing to really squash

Legalism and it works righteousness, even if it says it's not works righteousness, but it's a system of thought

To the Church Christ that say that you do have to by your own efforts Make the decision to get baptized to do this in order to be made right before God and to continue to live a holy life or you lose your justification and you got to do that all within the confines of The Church of Christ and so I believe back in our conversation a year or so ago about this conference and you saying hey

Would you be willing to travel and come to what is it? Tullahoma Yes I like Jeff, of course

I got you and you're like I think we were tossing up ideas maybe me speaking either on the Church of Christ because we were kind of saying we need

Some type of apologetic to some of the cults going on And so what's what's been in my lap for the past year and a half?

Which really the birth of the apologetic dog has been number one the Church of Christ and then in these last days pun intended the full preterism

And and it's funny because full preterism has its origins within the Church of Christ with Max King back in the late

Maybe early 90s actually, so not even 30 years old. So we were talking through those things I'm so glad we end up landed with me and dr.

Frost doing something together We've been corresponding getting ready for this and you know He he lived in the the full preterist movement for about a decade travel around spoke at conferences

And so without giving too much the cake away I know he's gonna speak from a very practical point of view and just hit on a lot of things that you know

Ruined his life right really really damaged his faith as the scriptures warned us about and then

I think I'm gonna go second with kind of an exegetical approach looking into our blessed hope and then also showing first first Corinthians 15 how the

Apostle Paul makes it inescapable that The totality of everything is going towards God is all

God is God over all even to the very end When death will be destroyed and so first Corinthians 15 is is huge in this conversation

Corinthians 13 on the sub on that subject Are you talking about the perfect?

Yeah Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because I was gonna ask you so did you watch my video on it

I Watched I think I chimed in at some point and watched for maybe 10 or 15 minutes

I know my buddy Adam Carmichael was watching y 'all had some really good interaction

So I want to know where you stand I want you to touch on that again But I'll tell you this so you can tell me where I'm wrong. You know,

I was looking at first Corinthians It's it's 1310 right that which when the perfect comes

That which is partial will be done away with right? It's you got to think first Corinthians 15 is heavy in my mind

And I'm always thinking about the Parisia at his coming then comes the end and I thought what

I really like is the second coming of Jesus that restores the kingdom and gives it back gives the kingdom back to the

Father and then Just with me looking at the phrase The end and that which is passing away seems to be this age right this this evil age that's passing away

First Corinthians touches on those things and will no longer think as a child, but we'll see face -to -face

And so what I like Jeff before you rebuke me hard As I like this talking about the coming of the second coming of Christ when we'll be resurrected and see him face -to -face

Yeah, that's it The perfect is When the second coming and when the dead in Christ are raised like if you just you know

Like just real clear when you walk through it like verse 8 says love never fails but if there are gifts of prophecy they will be done away with if there are tongues it will cease if There is knowledge.

It will be done away with and I'll stop right there. So it mentions three things. It mentions prophecy

Tongues and knowledge. So the Greek words which don't have my Greek with me right now So, please forgive me, but but for the done away with this the exact same

Greek word All right, and then what's with with tongues? It says to cease and so it kind of the

Greek itself the Greek grammar separates it and so like a Lot of times when

I preach I always like to at the beginning I tell people what I'm about to say And then

I and in my exposition Like I'll give a sentence and what I'm about to say and in my exposition

I explain that sentence So basically I'm saying what I said that I was going to say and in my conclusion

I remind you of what I was what I just said and I feel like that's what

Takes place here because in verse 9 it says for we know in part

So that's the knowledge and we prophesy in part But when the perfect comes the partial will be done away with so that's the end part.

So Knowledge and prophecy is the end part.

So when the perfect comes Knowledge and prophecy will be done away with But notice it didn't say anything about the tongues.

Well, that's where verse 11 kicks in It says when I was a child, I used to speak like a child

So speaking here has to do with tongues Thank thank like a child reason like a child and when

I became a man I did away with Childish things speaking of the tongues.

They cease as the church matures right verse 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly.

So right here I would say that this is speaking about the sinner and Saint reality. So right now as a follower of Jesus Christ I am perfectly righteous in the sight of God Right.

So when God sees me he sees me as righteous in Christ But when

I see myself I see a sinner Right, and so I'm looking in the mirror dimly right, but but then so then what when the perfect comes face to face,

I'll know in part I mean I Says now

I know I'm face to face now. I know I'm part but then I will know fully just as I also am fully known

So so when the perfect comes my resurrected body, I won't see myself as a sinner

I'll see myself righteous in Christ Which this matches the flow of chapters 14 into 15, right?

14 we get a lot of Insight to what tongues looks like for the edification of the body, by the way,

I have to remind people that Not alone in a corner or in closets somewhere I have a lot of brothers and sisters though that we sharpen each other on The gifts of the

Spirit and I don't like that a heel to die on But I'm very clear with people

The experience that I a lot of times hear people talk about that they're after and I try to commend them

Yes, we should want a the deepest experience. We possibly can have with the Lord I tell them

I get that though through his living and breathing word And so, you know in the temptation with many of talking about the perfect They want to make it the the scripture the closed canon.

I'm and I'm sympathetic to that view, but here's the thing Jeff I can't find that in the immediate context

The last conference I had I had that question was asked during the panel discussion and we were basically

Synonymous on that, you know, yeah, it's the closed canon, but then when some members of my church started asking questions

And I looked into it. So I sit down at the table with that interpretation and whenever they left the table

I didn't know what to believe and so me and the guy in our theology like for a week We basically fought with each other trying to figure out the interpretation and we just kind of okay

We just said, okay, let's just let the text speak. I mean you let the text be it clearly lays it out

Yeah, so that second part the partial will pass away when you kind of look do a word study on or on that phrase a lot of times here in 1st

Corinthians a A lot of times in this epistle we see that that's referring to this age

Where the the false teachers of this age whether it be Jewish, you know audience

They're looking for a sign or the Greeks that are you know Had this intellect all that's passing away and I believe it's 1st

Corinthians 7 is it talks about it's not just the teachers that are Passing away, but the form of this world is also perishing and so I just thought okay

Paul is kind of has this unified a whole building up to 1st Corinthians 15 because this is what

I'll be speaking on at the conference You know specifically against hyper -preterism, but I'm kind of like you my views have been challenged

Really just sitting in a letter for a long time and just really understanding the context and here's the thing

Jeff I was dispensational pre -millennial for about eight years And so and I want people to know that if you're pre -millennial dispensational brother in Christ like to me

Once again, not a heel to die on in fact, I'm saying we all need to link up together all mill post mill pre mill because Hyper -preterism is trying to take away and redefine our blessed hope and so we got to affirm the essentials of the faith

And so anyway as I've been preparing and studying for that Listen to y 'all's podcast a little bit y 'all's video on Facebook and so it wasn't long to a lot of the commentaries

I've been reading 1st Corinthians 1310 started popping up and I'm just like, you know Because I remember

Johnny Mac I'm trying to think his his state John MacArthur He was talking about his his position is that it's the eternal state not the second kind, but the eternal state and you know he had

Reasons for us, but it's mainly the the pre -millennial paradigm why I couldn't be the second coming of Jesus and I remember his reason back in the day for all my my friends out there that said it's gotta be the scripture

That's that's complete. That's how we have relationship with God. That's how we mature and sanctification is His reason was but if you look in Revelation, I think it's chapter 11 where you had the two witnesses

They will be prophesying and so for him this can't be totally done away with because of future

You know tribulation and stuff Well, it's been so good

Jeff because my eschatology what what put a crack in my pre -millennial ism

Was I read a book by Philip Kaiser named the canon of Scripture a pre -millennial study my pre -millennial a a

Presuppositional study so, you know a lot of times I approach apologetics very Presupposition limit and I just said all that means is you stand on the

Word of God the Word of God is necessary to understand reality because God's Word is true.

Everything that God says is the bar of truth And so I was actually preparing for a debate on Marlin's channel know that you had a debate moderated discussion not too long ago

But I was getting ready to go against two Roman Catholics on sola scriptura

So anyway, what's funny is I started preparing for this debate on sola scriptura and it actually challenged my interpretation of Daniel chapter 9 and I loved

I loved the flow of thought that Philip Kaiser was going for and I thought man I can't be a pre -millennialist anymore with kind of this understanding

But with that being said you had a debate on Marlin's channel. How long ago was that? I Think it was about a month or so ago and I wouldn't call it a debate and I'm gonna be honest with you

I don't think I would go go back on the show and unless it was a true debate because I feel like like Marlin told me he'd give me time to speak and Giving me a minute to talk is not time to speak.

So I was very upset with that. I mean, I mean as a preacher Sometimes you got to let people see their see their ignorance

And in order to explain to them the truth and we had no time to do any of that and so Yeah, I Was definitely walked away from it very very upset because I feel like Marlin wouldn't and again

I think Marlin's a good brother. I love him in the Lord. I Don't think according to what was said in the text message.

He actually delivered. He didn't give us time to speak So, I don't like anything like that Well, we live and we learn

Marlin's trying some new things on his channel he's been doing some interesting things having like two guests on that defend a position together and then they just have all

People that want to chime in and kind of just tussle and so that's a interesting I mean,

I want to I want to open the Bible and I want to walk through it and I want to let the Context I mean because you know

Like I really like the Greek and everything but Greek the Greek and the Hebrew is not King context

The context is going to tell you how to interpret the Greek words, right? and so whenever whenever a verse is thrown at me,

I want to you know every time they throw something we knew the context of everything and But in order to give the context

I'm gonna need more than a minute Yeah, you see what I'm saying? So, you know, there's just stuff like that that really irks my butt

But but you know like but like when it comes to cabinet, how do you notice? You know, like you have the latent flowers and then there's

Jason Brita who is going to be debating James White at our at our conference so you have all these guys who profess to be

Calvinist and then they walk away from Calvinism and if I'm honest with you if it wasn't

For Covenant theology, I would walk away from Calvinism, too Calvinism Although it's it's true

But outside of a covenant framework, it isn't consistent And so that's why you know, there's a lot of Calvinists that are walking away

From that because they're not rooted on the foundation of covenant theology

Now the name of our episode is covenant theology I put a few more topics in there, but I love that because you gotta think

I was the dispensationalist for eight years, right? I blame Johnny Mac, but I in all seriousness

MacArthur has blessed my heart Ministry took to your point earlier that that man stands on the

Word of God Expositionally line by line passage by passage and he his ministry is kind of unparalleled with him literally preaching through the entire

New Testament and God really used MacArthur to Let me see someone who loves the

Word of God and hand and tries to handle it with care So that was one of my first role models

In really being serious and growing in the faith And so with that came we'll just say the the extra load of pre -millennial dispensationalism

Like I said, love my brothers there For the past I'm gonna say a year and a half or so Like I said the armor of my my dis be pre mill broke

From Philip Kaiser's book. And so I was a clean slate. I actually remember Jeff I called pastor Nathan who

I started with here at 12 -5 and I said Nathan I don't think I'm a pre -millennialist anymore. And you know, he said

I told you you would change your mind And So I just told him

I'm going to really enjoy just letting kind of post mill and all mill explain themselves Without you know, a pre mill telling me just all the problems that they're all these guys that are saying they're post mill

They're not really post mill Hey, we're gonna get into that because all this relates back to covenant theology

And like I said, I'm I'm kind of kind of new to all this about the past year I've been really trying to study and learn more and it's only been to about six to eight months ago

I've started seeing the beauty of Covenant theology and it is way different than kind of a dispensational paradigm that sees a hard break between Israel and the churches we know it and so I I want to set you up to kind of lay out what you mean when

You say covenant theology how that is a proper framework for Calvinism Yeah, so like if you if you was to ask me because I hope to what's well it's been coined 1689 federalism

To me. It's just a mouthful. I'll just tell people I hope to Baptist covenant theology and and in a true and pure form that I believe that follows the

Confession and what I believe is that what's commonly called the covenant of grace

Is it's it's Established in the new covenant, right?

It's established in Jesus so I believe that the new covenant is the covenant of redemption given to humanity and is worked out in time and space and So and so and so what that means is for anyone that's not familiar with covenant theology.

There's an overarching covenant that follows scripture that Throughout scripture and it's clearly laid out for us and Ephesians chapter 1 beginning in verse 3 to I believe verse 14 and And so and so just in short without reading all that.

It's that God the Father purpose to save a people God the

Son Accomplishes the purpose and God the Holy Spirit applies the purpose

And so this is where we get the idea of election when it comes to Calvinism. So so God So there's a triune covenant between the

Godhead and in it God the Father Purposes to save the people and in time his son

Jesus Christ comes to accomplish this purpose through his death burial and resurrection and that and that Purpose is applied through the preaching of the gospel.

This is why I do street preaching, right? How will they hear if no one tells them right?

We're saved by grace through faith. It's not of ourselves It is the gift of God faith is the gift of God faith comes by hearing and hearing of the

Word of God So so men have to be faithful to to preach the

Word of God So that the Holy Spirit can apply the purpose to fulfill the covenant of redemption

Now the statement that I made is is that the the new covenant is the covenant of redemption given to humanity and worked out in time and space and so What we see in the new covenant or what's commonly called the covenant of grace is

What took place in heaven coming down to earth? right, and so my

So what makes my position different? Then what's commonly called classical covenant theology is

That I don't believe the cup. There's an established cut and if you want to we can stop here and talk about it

I don't believe there's an established covenant given to us in Genesis 3 15 Right when

I read Genesis 3 15, I understand that God doesn't make covenants with devils But what does play take place in this so God curses the serpent but in doing so he he gives a

Promise and this promise is of his son coming into time

Right, and and he's going to come through a woman So it's kind of like this this prophecy of the virgin birth and that hit me that this seed who is a son will bruise

The head of the serpent only bruising his his let his feet his heel. Excuse me and so in Genesis 3 15, we see a promise given but it's not a

Covenant given. It's a promise of a covenant and And so that's why

I say the new covenant of grace is the new covenant What I say to those

Presby's though, let's say Jeff Come on now, the the covenant of grace is found all throughout the

Old Testament. We just see different administrations of it Yeah, but in order to say that, you know because I can go to you know, the the endemic covenant and Show that it's a covenant and a lot of people say well, how do you know?

It's a true covenant because of the covenant given to to to Noah It's it's basically a

Noah's Covenant is a recreation covenant and everything that was given to Adam is repeated in the covenant of Noah So in order for there to be a covenant there has to be a do this and live right

And and then and then if you so so let's say in the endemic covenant

Adam is told To fill the earth to multiply. All right. He's also given a prohibition

Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for in the day that you do you will die So do this

You know fill the earth and multiply and you'll live but if you eat of this tree

You'll die You see the same thing in the Noahic Covenant and which I believe the Noahic Covenant is still a part of our

Like like that's the only covenant I believe that has not ended from the old covenant because it's a creation mandate.

It's it's a recreation mandate You know Noah's code to you know, basically the same thing took to fill the earth multiply but he's also given a prohibition and it's it's it's that Not to eat of the blood or or to shed man's blood right

He's told that if you shed man's blood your blood will be shed. So fill the earth and multiply is given something to do

It's a command, but if you shed man's blood you will die. So there's a do this and live

And if you do not do this, if you disobey this you'll die. You see it with Abraham. Abraham is given a covenant, right?

Circumcise your offspring. Well first he's told to walk before God blameless and then he's told to Circumcise his offspring but the prohibition falls on his offspring more so than it does him because his

Offspringers are told that if there comes a day where they do not circumcise their offspring the person that doesn't circumcise their offspring

He's cut off. He's removed from the land And so the do this and live when it comes and when you clearly see us in the

Mosaic Covenant It's not it doesn't always have to mean that your life is being taken but that you're removed from living in the promised land and so when you get to the

Mosaic Covenant the Covenant is given and if you say if you murder someone which harpens back to the

Noahic Covenant Or if you blaspheme or commit adultery your life will be taken from you.

Do this keep the law and live Break the law and you can be killed and then they also have a sacrificial system that they have in play for these

For these certain sins that doesn't actually call for your life Right so that you can be forgiven and if you fail to perform these deeds

Such as circumcision you can be removed from the land And so you see that do this and live and again

We see the same thing take place in the Davidic Covenant the Davidic Covenant He's told that that one of David is told that one of his sons are going to come from him

And he will keep the Covenant and if he fails to keep the and if he keeps the

Covenant He'll sit on the throne of David forever But if he fails to keep the Covenant, he will be removed from the throne of David and that means he's going to die

So you see that do this and live and there is no do this and live and there's no prohibition in Genesis Chapter 3 verse 15.

And so what I want to have is consistency. This is something I've learned from dr White is

I want to say Whatever it is that I'm speaking of that.

I'm trying to be consistent throughout all of Scripture so if it doesn't and I'm really

I'm Definitely wouldn't label myself a Biblicist because I know

I can get a bad name But but for me if it doesn't say it or teach it then don't say it or teach it right, if it says it teach it and if it teaches it teach it and It doesn't have to do both

Right because the doctrine of the Trinity, right? We both believe in the doctrine of the Trinity Well, the word

Trinity is not in there, but it's definitely taught. So therefore I teach it

But if the words not in there and the concept of the Trinity is not in there Guess what?

I'm not going to do teach it And so whenever I'm looking in Genesis 3 15 where they're telling me that it's there

Well, the word covenant is not there nor does it teach that a covenant was established there but what it does is it promises a covenant and then when you look through Let's say

Abraham We see the promise of that same seed the seed of the woman is transferred over to Abraham.

So because Abraham Begins to I mean so through Abraham God Establishes this kingdom people and and it's through his seed that he's going to bless the nations

Well that seed is Christ and then it's patent and then you see it in in in the in the

Mosaic Covenant, right? Moses says that there's going to come from among you a

Prophet like me speaking to the Jews so on and so forth. So so we see this promise of the sea given to us this gracious covenant like we

It starts the picture of it starts to become more clear as we get on into the old covenant text

Mm -hmm Absolutely, I have a number of points on bring up I was gonna say firstly

I put Michelle's comment She said excellent explanation. Never heard of that exploding emoji now

I do think she said that when we were talking about the perfect thing But I'm sure she still feels that way as we're talking about covenant theology if she's a

Presbyterian. I hope she doesn't unsubscribe No Presbyterians, I'm having a small conference at my church

New Year's Eve and the first speaker is going to be from a Covenant Presbyterian Church, which is like three minutes from me.

And so I Try it. I'd tell people the way I look at Presbyterians is we are so close on so much in fact

Depending I'm sure but I'm probably closer Theologically than more with Presbyterians than I am a lot of Southern Baptists I find

Our differences in covenant theology Even though they are important and it'll affect how we do church polity.

It affects probably our eschatology and definitely affects the ordinances Sacraments, but to me

We're still trying to grapple with the the same important truths of how God is in covenant with man

And like I said when I left Jeff when I left dispensational thought everything changes as a mutual friend that you and I both have dr

Jeffrey Johnson, he has been an absolute blessing to my life. Just him allowing me to have his contact information

In fact, I interviewed him on his book the five points of all millennialism Awesome.

Yeah Anyone's not checked that book out, but he makes an interesting case that it's all millennial thought that is the most consistent with Reform Baptist covenant theology and it kind of gets into the nature of the kingdom

It gets into the nature of who the people of God are which what we would contend are they've always been believers

The New Covenant was wrought Caroth with the blood of Jesus Therefore the

New Covenant is the covenant of grace and is made up of the elect Now that is different than Presbyterian thought because what you've kind of laid out is in the

Old Testament We have multiple historical covenants They are all distinct from one another because there are different sacrifices made with blood

There are there's similar patterns with dues and don'ts blessings and cursings, right and they're temporal, right?

There's a temporal land. There's temporal promises made but they all contain these Unconditional promises of God that are types and shadows

Pointing to the New Covenant and we're over here saying yes And that is a promise of the covenant of grace still yet to come

That's why you can point at Genesis 315 and say promise, right? Genesis chapter 12 starting verse 3 promise, right?

And further expand in 15 and chapter 17 with Abraham God says I will do these things right by virtue of sending a son and and Regenerating our dead hearts by the

Spirit These are all things that are promised in and through the New Covenant.

So is there anything that you'd like to add to that? Yeah. Yeah, so so like in the

Abrahamic Covenant, we have a sign given and that sign is circumcision but in the

Mosaic Covenant, there's also another sign and according to it's it's uh, it's

Exodus 31 13 To move it up really quick. I'm gonna have to interrupt you really quick.

Do you see who who say what's up below? I don't see anything. Okay, so on my screen

Marlon Wilson say said what's good fellas? So this is your opportunity to tell

Marlon a little bit of your thoughts if you wanted to real quick Marlon just know you need go listen to the video

We talked a little bit about his discussion and we love your ministry And so we're gonna we're gonna continue to push

Yeah, so the Sign the Mosaic Covenant sign is circle.

I mean is Sabbath -keeping All right And we find out in Galatians chapter 3 that the

Mosaic Covenant was added to the Abrahamic Covenant Right and that those things were only until Christ Because they were pointing to something right?

circumcision ultimately points to the crucifixion of Christ crucifixion of Christ according to Colossians chapter 2 the

And and the Sabbath keeping according to Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 more specifically 4 but context of 3 is

That the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ Yeah, right So all these things that we see the signs the seals and all this other stuff from the old covenant finds its fulfillment in Christ Christ is the substance and because it's fulfilled and because we have a new sign in a new seal

Which I would say is baptism and the Holy Spirit right, we don't take

From the old covenant and bring it into the new covenant because all these shadows found its substance in Jesus Christ and in the

New Testament Jesus Christ cast another shadow and that is the

Baptism the Lord suffered so on and so forth. We'll have to get into that too Now okay, so you're touching on a really important distinction between like Presbyterian covenant theology and Reformed Baptist because you got into The the types the shadows and then they were also now talking about the word substance

Because what I'm starting to see like you've been talking about is the Presbyterian say the

Covenant of Grace Starts in Genesis 315 and reaches all the way to Jesus and it's all the same substance with different administrations and So they have what dr.

Jeffrey Johnson would say they have a strong continuity So much so where they're forced into this mixed covenant of having regenerate members and unregenerate members and then you start seeing you know putting circumcision on boys and That's a that's a part of the covenant community, right and we're over here saying

That's a historical covenant, right? That's something contra distinction to what is in the new covenant but for the

Presbyterians, it's it's one covenant right with different administrations, so I Think that's why would why would

Mosaic Covenant needed need to be added to the Abrahamic Covenant if it's just one covenant, right?

It clearly says in Galatians chapter 3 that the law was added to Abraham The covenant given to Abraham and it was only until Christ hmm

And that's where we come back and say look in the in the old covenant we see this

We could probably use a few different words Republication different administrations of the the covenant of works and I'm starting to learn there's actually some debate on what that is and where that Began but what we are saying is in the old covenant

We see Israel being covenant breakers, right getting cursed their covenant breakers and they're getting the curses of these things and but what we see always with these historical covenants are promises of the gospel promises of The new covenant that is to come and so that's what we're saying

It's not the same substance their types and shadows pointing to what's to come and so I've been in some recent conversations

Jeff About somebody out because they kept trying to talk about it being the same substance and they're like, yeah the

Old Testament It's shadows and I'm like, okay. Hold on I said if you look at your shadow, is that you and he was like no

I was like, right it leads to you It points to you in the whole Apologetics of the book of Hebrews is saying the new covenant is better than the old, right?

And so like I've been saying is we're we're called not to go back to the old covenant but and to brace the new and so Yeah speak a little bit to the sacraments or when we say ordinances when we start talking about circumcision and baptism

Why is it do just believers get the benefit of being baptized on the new covenant son?

well, you know so as you know that I'm me and my the guy that I Co -podcast with Brayden Patterson's we're working on writing a book on covenant theology and we're still kind of teeter -totter in between the name, but It's probably going to be called the

Arctic Architectural that's why we're teeter -tottering because it's hard for me to say that word of the covenant, right?

My Country street slang does not have that in my vocabulary but but in it we want to point out because you mentioned earlier about Presbyterians in their continuity and I would say that they have more discontinuity than they truly have continuity

Okay and so like in the old covenant you have a kingdom people an

Entrance into the kingdom a covenant sign a covenant meal the law Forgiveness of sins a king and the seal of the covenant now what's

Continuity is that the new covenant also has a kingdom people and entrance into the kingdom a covenant sign covenant meal

And so right here the covenant sign and covenant meal. This is what we're talking about with the sacraments, right of the new covenant

We have a law we have forgiveness of sins We have a king and we have a seal of the covenant

And so if you just look real quick at the old covenant covenant Kingdom people is the physical seed of Abraham Right just what we're talking about earlier through Abraham.

God establishes his kingdom people Well to enter into the kingdom people

Through Abraham you had to be born Right, you didn't have to do anything.

You didn't have to jump through any hoops. You just had to be born Right, you had to be a part of Abraham All right

Which was what the Pharisees are pointing back to we're children of Abraham and Jesus God could raise up out of these stones children, right?

You think that's meaningful here, right? And so and if you were a male child on the eighth day that male child would receive the covenant sign which was circumcision and so just to pick on my

Presbyterian brothers real quick because they would see that that's a part of of the you know, the sacraments it's that in order to receive

Circumcision you had to be born right nowhere in Scripture. Excuse how

I explain this but nowhere in Scripture do I see a Doctor or a priest or whatever reach into the woman and circumcised the male child before the baby is born

Hmm right and so in the New Covenant in order to be a kingdom people you have to be a spiritual seed of Abraham an

Entrance into that kingdom is the new birth. You must be born again

Your old physical birth means nothing as a matter of fact, it curses you

You are in Adam headed for hell you must be born again

All right, and then when they're born again They're they're in the kingdom.

They're in the kingdom people You cannot see the kingdom nor enter the kingdom unless you're born again when someone is born again

They are infants in Christ Therefore they receive the Covenant sign baptism

Hmm what what Presbyterianism is in my opinion? It's the woman's not so what?

What infant baptism is? It's the heart. It's the cart before the horse. And so Okay, so let's go back to the old covenant so that in order to be a king of people

You had to be a physical seed of Abraham in order to enter into the kingdom entrance into the kingdom is birth

The Covenant sign is circumcision and and those and if you were born if you're a male child you receive circumcision

Then you partook in the Covenant meal, which was Passover All right

And that means you were only the Mosaic law and when the priest would make a sacrifice it counted for you

That sacrifice counted for everyone who was in the old covenant. So let's go real back

Let's go real quick back to the the new covenant There's a king of people the spiritual seed of Abraham those who have faith

Interest into that covenant is the new birth It's in the new birth where you're given faith to believe and those who have faith to believe they receive baptism and those who have received baptism partake in the

Lord's Supper And let me tell you something. So that means that whenever Jesus Christ died on that cross

His death counted for them and it doesn't count for anyone else outside of the new covenant

And that's why Christ's death is greater It's once and for all and it had to have taken place in the covenant of redemption

It was as good as done when God decided to send his son Jeff real quick because I remember at The g3 conference

I asked you about Old Testament Saints and what's their relationship to the new covenant I remember as clear as a day you were like they were saved through the new covenant

So tell you what you think about this because I've asked other people and I really like this answer So tell me if this is equal to being saved through the new covenant

So you got Old Testament Saints in these historical covenants, whether it be

Mosaic Davidic Whether you know We're all under the damock and these covenants stack is that an appropriate way of saying it like you can you can live under Multiple covenants, right?

So and Jesus was the seed that fulfilled all of them perfectly, right? So Someone said yes,

Old Testament Saints are members under the old covenant But by faith, they also became members of the new covenant.

So you think that's that's a fair way of looking at that as well I wouldn't say members Because in order to be a member you have to have been born again

Given we But also in the new birth what we see is then we've given the

Holy Spirit Hmm, and so I don't think Oh covenant believers have the

Holy Spirit dwelling in them the same as you and I Yeah, now I see the spirit of God coming upon them and and leaving coming upon them and leaving someone and so forth

But I but I do believe that their their belief is given to them by God And so and so I think it's kind of like a

I don't want to say here not yet type of an idea but But again, so I think that they were saved through the new covenant, but not that they were in the new covenant

Yeah, I am learning that there's there's a lot of ongoing discussion When it comes to this and I'm loving it

Jeff because I you Old Testament Saints didn't have the indwelling of the

Holy Spirit Could we say that the Holy Spirit did regenerate them, but he did not indwell them after said regeneration

Well, I believe that the Holy that God in order for someone to believe God has to give them faith right, but The so the faith it took for Abraham is different than the faith that takes for you and I Abraham had

Abraham believed that the stars in the sky however many number The stars in the sky was so shall his descendants be right

Abraham didn't grow up experiencing stars being descendants, right and so those

There's there's some way where he had to be given that faith to believe as for you and I in order for you and I To have true saving faith.

We must believe that that God who created everything Took on flesh and entered into time right the

Creator Entered creation the infinite became finite born of a virgin suffered under Pontius Pilate lived a life that we could not live took upon himself the

Punishment that we deserve in his death was buried and on the third day rose again from the grave Ascended into heaven he sits at the right hand of God on the throne of David ruling and reign and putting all of his enemies under his feet and He's coming back to judge the living in the dead

Right. That's something that you and I do not experience Now, let's just take the easy route

The easy one here and that's like death, right? Let's say that you and I in our life

We experience people dying and coming back. All right, look Let's say last, you know a few days ago two days ago a guy

I know named a Billy Bob died Right, and I mean you and I are talking and we're saying man

I hope Billy Bob raises from the dead tomorrow like like Joe did last week because it's something we experience

Right, and so it in order for that faith not to be given to us

It would have to be something we experience such as you know, whenever I became old enough to drive

I knew that if I put the key in the ignition and turn it the vehicle would start and if I hit the if I put

It in and drive and hit the gas it would go and if I came to a red light if I hit the brake It would stop like I knew it would happen

Because I experienced it from everyone when I was a child driving me around such as my father and stuff like that You know just watching

That take place that sequence take place over and over and over by the time I got my license to drive

I knew what to expect I had faith that the vehicle was going to take me places and stop when

I needed it to stop But again, we don't experience people dying and coming back to life

And believe it or not just the dying and come back to life That's the easiest part to believe and it's scientifically impossible.

We don't experience stuff like that So you didn't read? What was the name of that book

Someone went to heaven and basically came back Heaven is for real

Some of MacArthur's Church said heaven is real but that that person experience wasn't or something.

I was like Yeah, so that's good because We want to affirm that salvation has always been by grace through faith and I keep plugging

Dr. Jeffrey Johnson's book the kingdom of God because I'm trying to finish it soon so I can have him back on I'd like to go through that book with him, but Early on in his book.

He talks about continuity and discontinuity And he puts the Reformed Baptist Covenant theology paradigm right in the center because we recognize those things that we ought to recognize

Discontinuity on the things that are different from from New Covenant to Old Covenant and I just thank you say

Yes, and I just named a few. Yeah, I did this community would be that you know, like it's not physical seed

It's spiritual seed. It's not physical birth. It's spiritual birth. It's not circumcision. It's baptism. So on and so forth

That's good. Because one thing we would say is Abraham was justified by faith and by the grace of God Yeah so that's good because I wanted to get your thoughts on how the differences between Presbyterian Covenant theology and Reformed Baptist Covenant theology

Why why do we see the Covenant signs being applied differently than the

Presbyterians? Do you mind a touch on that a little bit? So are you just speaking about like sprinkle versus immersion or?

Spray More more why reform Baptist we're gonna make a case that it's the sign is going to be an act of faith or to be

Received by faith as where the Presbyterians see that. Oh Unbelieving children can be in the covenant of grace and we can teach them faith

Hmm. Well, I think it just I think first it has to do you know you have to look at in the way that I just presented it right because A birth versus the new birth right an infant

You know as much as I wish they could trust me, right? I mean, I have a litter of kids

I wished they could you know come out the womb believing right? They need the gospel preached to them faith comes by hearing right and in regeneration so so in the waters of regeneration

Several things take place you have the heart of stone removed from you so I would say that this is speaking about self -righteousness and God gives in regeneration a heart of flesh and this was is what

I believe is the faith to believe and Then and then he puts his spirit in us that causes us to obey his statutes right and so in order for a

Child to believe they have to be given faith and and and in faith

They receive the Holy Spirit Paul says did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing in faith?

faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God and So and so so so let's say that an infant can receive

You know faith, well first they got to be under the preaching of the gospel and be able to Tell me what is the gospel?

So so so here in Tallahuma, so I've been street preaching for a long time, but here in Tallahuma This is the

Bible Belt as you know, right the South and I've been on the streets preaching in the same spot for three years and This past Saturday And listen,

I've spoken with hundreds of people hundreds of my neighbors. I preach right down the street for me

I bump into these people at the store, right? I go to a restaurant people are whispering. That's the preacher that stands right, and and so I've had two people who claim to be

Christians that knew the gospel and And only one of them I believe is truly following Jesus Christ two people

All right, and I've spoken with hundreds of people who claim to be Christians. They're going to church there.

They're you know, they're They say they're living for Jesus and I asked them

What is the gospel and they do not know and I have a hard time to believe that you can

Be a Christian that you can be saved from your sins and not know the gospel that saved you from your sins not know

Christ has done for us and in Romans chapter 8 verse 9 tells us that if you do not have the

Spirit of God you are not of Christ so in order for a

Child an infant to be in the covenant. They have to have the Spirit.

They have to be born again and And you can't be born again unless you believe

I Really want them to be right, but they're not

I'm just trying to be consistent yes, so Kind of talking about like if someone asked me like why do we not baptize babies?

I would say well in the the old covenant. It was a mixed covenant. God was saying yes to Abraham Circumcised your son and this was a part of theocratic

Israel God had a very specific purpose for this nation To be set apart to preserve the the oracles the scriptures and the lineage of Messiah a lot of things, right?

and so Under that covenant which and here's the key for me That was a different covenant a different substance that contained promises types and shadows of better things to come

But we in the new covenant are a part of something so much better so much greater and we should not go back to the old covenant and So the new covenant is made up of babes in Christ And so we're talking about are those people but that that know

Jesus and have their sins forgiven past present and future sins that know him from the least of them to the greatest of them and so the new covenant are the elect of God and so someone loves

Jesus and Professes faith. Those are the people that receive the sign of baptism the sign of the new covenant that is

Different than the old and so I think we have good grounds of saying if this is a different substance

If this is a different covenant, then we don't have to implement The sign of the covenant the same way that we saw

With the administration of the old covenants, right? So we're arguing not just different administrations

But we're arguing that these are different covenants altogether. And so with that real quick, I had someone say so What's the difference between Presbyterian covenant theology and Baptist covenant theology?

I Wanted to say it's it's a difference when how we see the continuity and discontinuity between Old Testament and New Testament And so I think at the very very baseline

I actually want to ask you another question after this is Presbyterian see beginning with Genesis 315 all the way to the time of Christ is the covenant of grace just under different Covenant administration, so it's all every time we see a covenant.

It's the same covenant. It's the same covenant different administration And so we're arguing for something different.

We're saying the covenants of the Old Testament. They're all different now Yes, they stack for those that are living under, you know previous covenants in the line of Israel But all those are radically different than the

New Covenant, which is the covenant of grace that the Old Testament Promise would happen in type in shadow.

So Jonah add anything to that real quick Well just to point out what I was speaking about earlier

It's you know, it is the New Covenant is the covenant of redemption given to humanity worked out in time and space

Because in the ocean in the redemption God purposed to save a people he sent his son to accomplish the purpose and The Holy Spirit applies the purpose

All right Jesus comes and he lives the life that you and I could not live and he took upon himself the punishment

That those whom the father chose Right, so here's

Calvinism those whom the father chose he lived the life that they could not live and took upon himself the punishment that they deserve and then whenever We go out and preach the gospel.

The Holy Spirit applies the purpose that is they receive Regeneration, you know, they're baptized in the

Spirit meaning they were the heart of stone self -righteousness is removed They're given a heart of flesh which is faith or they're able to believe in order to receive the

Holy Spirit but when it happens, it's You know, it's simultaneously It's like that and so and that's what makes it different is is because it's a work of God All right, the old covenant is purely a work of man

You know two people come together male and female. I'm not going to get explicit on here.

They come together They have relation a child is born a child enters into the covenant

Now, of course, we know that God forms us in the wombs So on and so forth like I don't want to really but but but but you know the circumcision the physical circumcision is done with human hands the the

New Testament circumcision, which is our Regeneration is not done with human hands, right?

It's done by God we must be born again born from above and so and so I would say that everything that the old covenant has is only a

Picture of something greater. I just say the kingdom people physical seed of Abraham the new covenant people

Spiritual seed of Abraham. So everything in the old covenant is it's tangible. It's earthly. It's fleshly everything in a new covenant

It's spiritual. It's heavenly. It's beautiful Right, you can't always just reach out and touch everything, right?

The kingdom is among you, but yet I don't know where the what where the entrance door is, right?

I don't see any walls as a matter of fact, unless you're born again. You cannot even see it.

It makes no sense You see I'm saying so so so everything in the new covenant.

It's different It's Hebrews 8 tells I mean Hebrews 9 tells us it's not like the previous covenant

It's different. And so and so what I fear is, you know again

I love my Presbyterian brothers and and and and also the reason why I say it's Baptist covenant theology

Is because there's a lot of Baptists that host a classical covenant theology And so when

I say Baptist covenant theology, I'm not talking about all reformed Baptist because there's several different ways that they view this

I'm talking about the unique way that Baptists should do this and it's not earthly.

It's heavenly. It's not tangible It's it's it's something that's here and but it's not fully here yet.

All right You're born

So Jeff, I know you can't probably see this at the bottom, but we have a question From Christ rescued me.

Thank you for this This person asked isn't it true that the move from the old?

Covenant to the new pointed to a progressive revelation of God's eternal plan of redemption

In parentheses the gospel not a contradictory one and they referenced Romans 3 29 to 30 in Romans 10 verse 9, so I'm gonna let you start answering that I'm gonna pull up that last verse reference

But yeah speak to what we're talking about continuity discontinuity from Old Testament to New Testament. How does a progressive revelation fit into that?

Well, so yeah I mean because like in Genesis 3 15 all we know is that a woman and at the time the woman would have been eat

There's gonna come and again You can I think it's 1st Timothy where it talks about a woman saved through childbearing

Speaking of eat that child is Christ and we're saved through Christ right, so it starts out with a seed coming from a woman and then and then in Abraham we find out that this seed

God's gonna bless all the nations through this singular seed according to what

Paul says in Galatians chapter 3 and then it you know that That progression takes place again.

We see that is that it's going to come through Jacob, right? I mean not not

Not Jacob. Yeah through Jacob Jacob's son Judah the the scepter shall not pass from Judah we see it revealed in Moses Moses speaks speaks to the children of Israel and he says that a

Prophets coming from among the brothers, right? And in the Hebrews chapter 5 tells us that Christ had to be born a

G Basically had to be born like he may like his brothers in every way so that he can become a faithful high priest

And so Moses tells them that there's gonna arise a prophet like him from among them and they are to listen to him

And then we see it again in the and in the David in the Davidic Covenant So you see this seed and every time that it would appear again

You get a clear revelation right when it whenever Jacob tells is whenever Jacob tells

Judah that the scepter will not pass from Judah We know that this seed that's going to bless all that the seed that's going to crush the head of the serpent

That's going to bless all the nations. There's going to be a king and then that's further brought out and David He'll keep the law and sit on the throne forever.

And so that that the revelation gets clearer the mirror gets Less dim, right and But it's we fully see it in Christ in Christ Genesis again at the very beginning.

I said There is no covenant in Genesis 315 if it was let me tell you what

I wouldn't be a Baptist All right, I want to be

Consistent. I want to be able to say look. This is what I believe in why I believe it There is no covenant given in Genesis 315 only a promise

Yeah, a promise that's wrapped up in a curse Yeah, so that that to me answers the question really well because to the the question being made

Absolutely, there's been the same gospel But revelation of that promised gospel that is to come has been getting greater clarity greater clarity

Until we see through the Incarnation the one that's been long promised and I think is it is it

Galatians? Chapter 3 where Paul gives us a really good running commentary on the gospel that was promised to Abraham Yeah, and he says was that is that through his seed singular?

He's gonna bless the nation. So that's the gospel and we knew and I hindsight knows that the nations have been blessed through Jesus Yes, so that's that's the key as we can say

Yes We're we all Old and New Testament saints are saved by the same gospel the same

Covenant of Grace the the New Covenant But in the Old Testament the Reformed Baptist perspective is trying to make the case, but they were being

Given promises and so they're putting faith in the promises of God and are being Justified by faith in the promises that are to come and so for us today post root, you know post

Jesus dying on the cross ascending Resurrection on the third day and then ascending into heaven.

We look back to the the font of the promises fulfilled And so when we put our faith in Jesus good same promise

Same promise greater revelation and then we're saying we are in The New Covenant, which is a different substance than these historical covenants that were made with the the cult of Israel right very specific positive commands that were time sensitive meant to Expire, I mean you look at the ceremonial law that wasn't meant to be indefinite, right?

It was all types and shadows pointing to what Jesus ultimately would fulfill and to touch back on what you were saying earlier about the

Those in the Old Covenant being in the New Covenant. I would say that you cannot be in both covenants at the same time

Right, but I would also say that in order for Christianity to be true Christianity has to be owed the same way that Abraham was saved is the same way that I today have to be saved

Right, so Abraham was saved and it was through the New Covenant even though he was in the Old Covenant and just like before So so whenever I was saved

I wasn't in the New Covenant. I wasn't in the New Covenant until I was saved I was in Adam.

I was following the my first federal head and also dead in my trespasses and sins following after the lust and desires of my mind and Then heard the gospel

The the blinders were taken off I saw myself naked knowing I needed to be clothed and the only clothing that would clothe me is the righteousness of Jesus Christ Right, but but but the difference is is that I went from being in Adam and being in Christ All right.

No no longer in And I don't want to say an old covenant but in Adam but but in Adam The difference is is that also with Abraham Abraham went from being in Adam to in Christ But he was still under the old covenant and that was the covenant made with him and all that was

It wasn't the Mosaic covenant. He was under he was under the own his own covenant, which was that through him

God was going to Establish his people and bring about a king

So there's no way that that that Abraham could not be a part of that covenant. The covenant was being brought forth from him

Right, and so there's no way that you can be it's just kind of like, you know, can You know can can to disagree and walk together, right?

Can I be in the house and not in the house? I don't know So I appreciate

All that Jeff. So I hope that kind of helps get the conversation going with you know, why?

Baptist create our credo is we believe the New Covenant are those that have been regenerated and know

Christ and Have their sins forgiven the least of them to the greater that was promised

The New Covenant was promised in Jeremiah 31 Ezekiel 36 and so we're saying that that is of a different kind and a different quality than the the covenants of old and so that's going to impact on how we

Implement the the sacraments right because we're saying it's for those who by faith know

Jesus They are the ones that are to receive baptism, and so obviously

That how we kind of cash out continuity and discontinuity is going to affect why

Presbyterians would go ahead and baptize Unbelieving infants because they believe they are in the the covenant of grace

Almost the same way that the Old Testament saints were in the covenant of grace So I wanted to go ahead.

Do you want to add some? Again, if they could show me a passage where they circumcised them while they were still in the womb, right?

But I can't read real quick Romans 8 chapter in verse from chapter 8 verse 9.

It says however he's speaking to Christians. You are not in the flesh But in the spirit if indeed the

Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ And so well, you know so how can you be in the covenant the covenant made with Christ made from Christ with Christ and not be

Hmm right because if you do not have the Spirit whatever it is that Christ is about you're not about you're not in it if you do not have the

Spirit of Christ he does not belong to him. You do not belong to Christ.

I Belong to Christ because I've been born again. He belonged to Christ. He'd been blown born again

My almost three -year -old son does not belong to Christ because he has not been born again

But better believe that I'm raising him up training him teaching him preaching to him catechizing him and hopes that God will regenerate him and not give him some false hope or Or not put some false hope on me that keeps me from praying for his salvation

So I'd like to shift gears Because that's that's one area where I believe covenant theology is important to understanding why we should baptize those that by faith have received

King Jesus to them be baptized then I think Covenant theology the way that we have been talking about I think impacts our eschatology as well

So without me stepping any further past that line, what's your initial thoughts? How does Reformed Baptist covenant theology, how should it impact our eschatology?

Well And so I know there's a lot of people who are premillennial and You know historical premillennial that are

Reformed Baptist and and and and I wouldn't kind of push on them as much but I think the the clearer way to to understand

Covenant theology is found in all millennialism, and I believe that those

Today who would say that they're post mill. They're actually all Millennialism all millennialists.

They just have more of a Victorious future right

So in all millennial like like like me and the group of guys that I have we have this thing to our wills

We'll say something like the all mill hug, right? Raise our hands up like that all mill hug from above and it's you know, and we say that because we live

Very very far away from each other. And so my I'm hugging him, but I'm not yet hugging him and so in all millennialism, we just Clearly believe that there's an already not yet aspect of the kingdom and that and that You know all is a negation but but but what we mean by it is that the kingdom

The kingdom of God began at the first advent So it was it's basically the

Jewish wedding So whenever a Jew would betroth a woman so a Jewish man when he would betroth a woman they would be legally binding married

Right, and then he would go to his own house and he would he would build a house on to his father's existing house

I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I'm trying to get to it That's what I'm saying. Like I'm a preacher, right? So I'm trying to Yeah, and so and once he built the house

He would go to receive his wife unto himself and and then the consummation would take place, right?

But they were already married, right? So whenever Joseph found out that Mary was pregnant.

She was betrothed to him and he was going to divorce her quietly Right, so it's something more so they were already married the compass the

Consummation the consummation hadn't took place. The ceremony hasn't taken place

And so we believe that when Christ came the first time he Inaugurated the kingdom and then when he returns again the second time that will be the consummation that will be the the festival the celebration and and so when it comes to the idea of covenant theology

Let me try to Formulate the question that was asked

Me I asked Dr. Jeffrey Johnson this same question. How does you know reform

Baptist covenant theology affect our eschatology? because something that's kind of built in the post millennial framework is you need the theonomic laws of Israel to exist today to bring about that Expansion of the kingdom of God on earth and if that's of a different covenant

This would be kind of my thought on that is though those Theocratic laws we affirm general equity, but that is a temporal kingdom

That's not the means of the kingdom that's been inaugurated now We don't use temporal tools to expand an eternal kingdom.

We don't press morality on The unregenerate in order to grow the kingdom

Well, the kingdom of God expands now by the preaching of the gospel by the stronger man tying up the strong man

Which is Satan which already happened and Christ is plundering the strong man's good Like you've been saying through regeneration that that is what we see

And so it's really a question of you know, how does reform Baptist covenant theologians?

affirm a Theonomic paradigm in the eschatology because dr. Jeffrey Johnson was saying he would see an inconsistency there

So, I don't know if you wanted to to add to that anymore Well, so so I I would say

Concerning the theonomic aspect of it. I wrote something earlier I'm trying to pull it up of how it is that the church rose

Let me read this real quick yeah, okay,

I said the Yeah, the the church conquers in Christ through persecution

Hmm So the modern is the seat of the church And so my optimism would would be pessimistic to some because I don't believe

Which Which I would say those who claim to be post mill. They're not really post mill I mean if you break it down what post millennialism is is they believe in a literal thousand years just like the premillennial

Premillennials, but they just believe that thousand years is going to come after Christ returns versus the post mill believes that there's going to be a

Thousand years like a golden age before Christ returned So if you believe that Christ came in his first advent to a second advent that that's the thousand years spoken about then you're an all -millennial

That's what that's the definition of all millennialism and every everyone that I know who claims to be a post mill

They would say that the thousand years is first advent to second advent So they're all they are

Optimistic all mills. They're not truly Historically post mill you see what

I'm saying, right? And so what they're doing is is they're piece milling their eschatology

We cannot come up with something new. It's being piece mill They're taking a little here a little there and trying to blend together and boom make something

And so and so it's very inconsistent and so when it comes to the economic rule remember earlier

I said that the the Abrahamic Covenant had a sign all right, and it was circumcision and the in the nuke and in the

Mosaic Covenant has a sign and it's Sabbath keeping and the seal of both of those two signs is

Circumcision and when you read Galatians It tells us that the law was added to Abraham and it was only until Christ the heresy

In Galatians is them Establishing the Mosaic law

All right It's not about the physical descendants of Abraham It's about the spiritual descendants of Abraham and our rest is not in law keeping it's in Believing in Jesus Christ resting in his finished work on that cross

All right again, we're general equity, right? And so we want to we hope to the three

Uses of the law we want to when I when I preach I use the first use of the law

I use the law as a mirror to show people their sin and their need for a Savior But I can also turn that mirror on to myself and see you know what

I'm not as good as I think I am so that law Earlier, I was talking about the saint and sinner reality when

I look at myself and see a sinner it's because I'm looking in the perfect mirror of the law and I know that I've broken this law and And no matter what

I did, I can't seem to keep it perfectly Even though I have the Holy Spirit in me that causes me to keep it.

I still am Unable to keep it perfectly. Well, the second use of that law is a curb.

So we believe that our Governments should should do general equity.

They should look to God's law and and try to Prevent people from being as evil as they could be right and so let's say if you kill someone you get 75 years in prison and So let's say that I wake up one day.

There's anger in my heart. Someone did me wrong and I want to kill them Well, if I think about the law, well if I do this,

I'll spend 75 years in prison Well that thought that knowing if I got caught

I could do 75 years in prison It's supposed to be a curb and it keeps me from jumping the curb

But although it's a curb and the car is going fast enough the car can jump the curb and so we still have murder people murdering one another and so there should be a punishment and According to to that one.

I'm you know, I for not to for to all this other stuff You know, I don't necessarily believe in the eye for not to for to because I think

Jesus gives grace there the same way Yeah, yeah, yeah, not the same way

I do think punishment should take place, but I don't think it should be a one -for -one and so that's why general equity is important and and then also the third use of the law is

I'm to use the law as a When I read the Bible the

Christian is for the third use So as I read the Bible, I use Jesus. I have Jesus as my flashlight

So as I'm reading it and it tells me again to circumcise my kid

Well, I mean I think circumcision is good but as by way of a covenant then I remember okay

Jesus is circumcision Circumcision is fulfilled in Jesus. So therefore I don't have to circumcise my son to please

God I do it for good health, but I don't have to do it to please God, right? And so I have this a law and gospel distinction

Right, the laws will do this the gospel says this has been done for me And so as I read the

Bible I have to have a long gospel distinction and I have to read it knowing in my head what

Christ has already fulfilled You follow me? Yep And so by doing so This is how the

Holy Spirit causes me to keep God's law. Like I don't know what you believe You know, so so when it comes to to you know, like for me

And in order to keep big commandments I need to be faithful with little commandments right in order for God to give me big responsibilities

He must first see that I can handle little responsibilities. And so So let's say

Let's get controversial, right? So the first Corinthians chapter 11 talks about Not covering and covering, you know, it says uncover

Right, and I don't know what you believe about this But when I go to church, I don't wear a hat just because of that verse

Where it says that the man should not cover and and my wife covers Because I think that's a little commandment that we can obey and and it doesn't hurt any one of us

We can obey this commandment Right and if I can obey it, I'll pull it up.

Yeah What I'm saying is is how can how can I expect myself to keep big commandments?

Like don't murder someone if I can't take my hat off in church And trust me look

I'm going bald. Like I really want to wear a hat. I'll always wear a hat unless I'm in church

Yeah, right. And so what I try to do is I keep little commandments like that Knowing that it's not a salvific issue

Right. I can preach in a pulpit this week and hide my hat and I know that I'm not going to go to hell for it

But again in order for me to do big things I got to get the little things down in order for God to give me big

Responsibilities. I got to be faithful to the little responsibilities that he's given And so and so when

I'm when I keep the law, I'm not doing so to To earn life. I'm doing so because he has given me life in Christ and that's where that flash like Because that's one of the chapters and the five points of all millennialism they talked about is we believe in a redemptive historic hermeneutic meaning that We go to the

Old Testament We're taking Jesus with us like you're talking about we interpret the Old Testament in light of the

New Testament now Pre -mill dis be Didn't didn't read it that way.

So when you see promises given to Israel, you're always thinking. Well, of course, it's physical Israel, right?

It's it's And not necessarily pertaining to the believers, right? Believe that you are

Israel Well, oh, yeah, who was the poor young gentleman that y 'all really?

We're giving a hard time on y 'all's last podcast On Our podcast we fight

Yeah, y 'all have a good time though Well, Jeff, thanks so much man for taking us down the road of covenant theology.

This is a world I am still getting to know Studying loving it learning that they're still ongoing conversations because I'm reading a lot of dr.

Jeffrey Johnson's work looking at Sam Renahan Understanding that there's actually some disagreements on things that they have and that's okay.

I think they agree on the big stuff I think you pointed out. That's great. I love them both

Do you have any other resources that you'd recommend people for Reform Baptist covenant theology? Well, I mean,

I think the book that we're going to be writing is what it's gonna clear up a lot of things Braden my the guy that did a podcast with Very very smart man.

I mean like it, you know, if you want to interview someone I think he would be someone good to interview. He was a Mormon for 19 years

Wow, and he is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and him and I we just you know, and half like like and It's a true camaraderie and you see us like in our podcast we yell and scream and fight with each other

But man, we love each other and but but but him and I are working on that book and I think it is going to answer a lot of questions and we're going to get very controversial in it and Push back we're looking for debates

And stuff like that may not you know, like when we're at g3 I had several Presbyterians approached me and I ended up going to Genesis 315 with them and their shut

They cannot answer that. It's not there and And if we are reformed and we need to say, okay, it's not there now now now

So so so here's what I'm looking to get. I'm not looking to change Presbyterians into Baptist because I really like that We disagree because if we if we agreed on everything it would not be any fun

What I would like to challenge them with is to see us as reformed as a reformed denomination

Not just a name only because I think that our covenant theology is superior to theirs

All right And listen, I mean like it the proof is on them if if they're saying it began there

They need to show where it began there and I'll be a Presbyterian right, and so So I would say that our covenant theology is superior and and I'm not trying to convert them to be in a

Baptist But I'm getting sick and tired of them telling me I'm not reformed. I Guess I got told that so much when

I was dispensational It kind of I became numb to it. So now that I'm more in reformed

Baptist land. I'm like, ah, it feels good I like the consistent waters that I'm swimming in though Yeah, and I got some really good, you know reformed

Presbyterian France, but I'm getting really sick and tired of that. You know, I'm saying Well, hey you got me on your team so You know, and I'm so glad you do these conferences which as we're beginning to wrap up we'll kind of bring that up again because y 'all are getting to talk about some very important issues and Correct me.

You're talking about name off some of the subjects. Yeah, absolutely Just real quick as you're pulling it up.

You said a big push in this conference. You'll be talking about practical issues with it Yeah, so like the first one,

I mean We got to bring in a little bit of history So the first one is the first session will be the

Calvinism of Jesus Second session will be Calvinism in history.

So there's gonna be just one message on Calvinism in history The third message will be why

Calvinism matters why Calvinism matters the third session will be

See Calvin the Calvin the Calvinism of Luther and then we have

Calvinism and tribulation and Then day two we'll start with so so here's the covenant theology

We'll have Calvinism from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant and that'll be done by Brayden Patterson Okay, and then we'll have a preaching

Calvinism. So There's a miss session on how to preach

Calvinism Calvinism in the wrath of God Calvinism in the love of God James White is going to be teaching on the

Calvinism of Paul and then day three will have count which will be done by Sam Waldron the will of man in Calvinism we're going to have someone preaching on Calvinism and evangelism and then also

Calvinism in the gospel and If I could real quick, so here's the here's the questions that will be asked in the documentary

So if you're looking for these answers first one, what is Calvinism second question?

Concerning the doctrines of grace specifically which of the doctrines affected you most profoundly so you're going to see with each of the

With each man, there's gonna be a different answer for this, right? Which one was it that actually

Profounded them that that grabbed them that wouldn't let them go question number three How has being a

Calvinism affected your approach in the pulpit question number four? What would you say has been the biggest hurdle to Calvinism being embraced by more

Christian people question number five is? Calvinism good for the church question number six.

Why should a church adopt the teachings of Calvinism question number seven? How does Calvinism affect your worship question number eight?

How does Calvinism encourage your your life of prayer nine?

How are we to understand Calvinism as parents concerning our children question number ten?

I got twelve questions question number ten. How does Calvinism affect your approach in evangelism number eleven?

How does Calvinism glorify God and question number twelve? why Calvinism so Really Yep, maybe in the future

Yeah, maybe in the future I was gonna say depending on you know, these things go well I'm just so so excited to be it be able to be there and hopefully set in for all these spectacular speakers

What is Keith Foskey? What is he talking about? the

Calvinism of Luther Really Yeah, I've I've been following his

YouTube channel. He's hilarious. So yeah, I can't wait to meet him in person Yeah, he's a new covenant theology guy.

We're working on So as I've been reading more about Reformed Baptist covenant theology

And maybe this is the I don't know if this is the classical that you referenced earlier but there have been

Reformed Baptists that see covenant theology the same as Presbyterians and then just say

Under the new administration, we're supposed to baptize believers and I've always Band -aid right.

It's classical covenant theology with the band -aid of baptism if Band -aids come off and that's why we see a lot of Reformed Baptist becoming

Presbyterians because it's consistent with classical covenant theology is consistent with Presbyterian ism

Yep, I think you're right federalism The Baptist covenant theology is consistent with Baptist and all millennial all millennial ism

Yeah, so real quick back to the the conference. Is it going to be recorded and put online?

Yes, we will be recording it recording it. It will not be live streamed

We will record it and release it on either our churches YouTube channel or my youtube channel.

I Can't wait I'm still working on my rough draft for the pre -conference, but I'm gonna use my 60 minutes

I'm gonna really try to use every bit of that hour Yeah and also More than likely we're gonna have you to do something on Calvinism as well

You just let me know and the apologetic dogs gonna be ready I may have to take me have to take me off the chain.

So You just let me know, you know, I'd be honored to help out in any way that I can

Yeah, it's gonna be good it's gonna be fun we're gonna have man I'll tell you that the after parties is where it's at Everyone who comes to our conference last year said that it was the best conference

They've ever been to and they were asking me. How did I plan such a great conference? And I was like,

I have no idea. I was freaking out man But I knew that there had to be time for fellowship like that is key

No one wants to be sitting down listen to a bunch of people For the whole day. There has to be time of fellowship.

So we're renting out a cigar shop Right to where we can all get together and hang out on a

Friday night We're gonna try to rent out this restaurant that has a bar area and it has a stage and we're gonna be singing

Psalms reading some reading scriptures while having a meal and enjoying one another so it's gonna be good

I'm looking forward to it. R &B studios wanted me to ask you about Bigfoot. I have no idea what that means

Yeah, cuz I'm a I'm a I'm a Bigfoot enthusiast Okay, you know listen

If you truly believe the Bible you believe in Bigfoot because the

Bible says you know I'm the testimony of two or three witnesses that things is established, right?

If someone was to murder someone and me and you I witnessed it that guy who murdered that person and we witnessed would be

Arrested and locked up right and there's thousands of eyewitnesses when it comes to Bigfoot and yet we're willing to say no

It's not true. I just think it's gone I've never had an experience But just because on the evidence of two or three witnesses

I believe that that that Bigfoot exists and I would love nothing more than to go out there and and I Was curious about that Jeff I got a lot of things down man

You've been a blessing to have on and you've definitely opened up the conversation and people can anticipate not only the conference

That's around the corner. When is that again, February? February and I tell you this if I have another conference

I would really like it to be on covenant theology and I would like it to be Presbyterians versus Baptist So one day we'll have

Presbyterians present their case the next day. We'll have the Baptist and then the last day we have Hey, well, give me a couple years.

I'm gonna be studied up I'm hoping to start stepping into the debate arena on Marlon's channel and Donny's channel standing for truth to start

And I want to debate these things in a charitable loving environment I I don't care if Presbyterians don't see me as reformed.

I don't care a whole lot about labels This is for King Jesus and I want to be able to unify as much as we can when we can

So I'm gonna point out. So the host this year's host for the conference is a

Presbyterian Mmm There you go. I'm just saying my brother

Pick on me and I'm you know, I picked back I'm an ex -gangbanger

Well, hey Jeff, do you have any final thoughts you gonna leave with with everyone No, man.

I think thanks for having me man. It's been a joy getting to know you and When you see

Adam Carmichael tell him I said, what's up? definitely, I Really enjoyed meeting him as well.

And All right. Well, thanks again, brother. I will see you soon

Brother Thank everybody that tuned in for the the live show here the the live stream here at the apologetic dog

I don't do these as much but I really want to do this more And so if you found this episode helpful, please like and subscribe and share this content with other people

It's a way for us to share the gospel of grace on the internet and just as the the live chat was talking about we believe that there is one gospel and so What's awesome about studying covenant theology is we are asking the questions

What's the continuity and discontinuity of that one gospel from the old covenant to the new covenant?

And so anyway, I'm kind of new to this world and I'm loving I'm loving the beauty the simplicity of how

God is Covenantal and relates to man his image bearer. So Like I said, if you you've enjoyed the apologetic dog,

I really appreciate your support Mainly if you can pray for me in these endeavors.

I serve as a pastor. I serve as a full -time Chaplain and bereavement quarter coordinator and so I'm able to do apologetics kind of on the side

But maybe one day I can do this more and more and we just trust God's timing and all of that And so with that being said, thank you so much for all of you that were able to make it.