Debate Class Tips, Matt Dillahunty, Leighton Flowers, Bahnsen vs. Stein, and more!

Why don't you tell the folks a little bit about your debate background? So how did you get into that whole field?

I know you taught it at the high school level Was that something you went to school for so that you can teach or is it something that kind of was dropped in your lab?

Like hey, there's a debate team and you know, would you like to teach it? How'd that look for you? Basically, that's what it was the way

I think of it is like so back in the day So I think we're about the same age Eli but back in the day

Are you I'm 42, okay, I'm 39. I'm a young I haven't reached the 40s

Let me tell you about your 40s, right? You wake up with your back hurting for no reason and that's your

There no back in the day Saturday Night Live was really popular now It's not funny at all

But there was a guy Chevy Chase and he was really known for like falling backwards down the stairs

Like everybody laughed at that. That's how I feel. I got into debate It's like I fell backwards down the stair like I went to school

So I have my theology degree and then I realized very long story. Hey, you know what?

I think I'm supposed to be a teacher So then I went in went and got another like a master's in teaching and then

I started teaching but it was in literature So I originally entered What's called Clark County here in Las Vegas?

Teaching literature but like second year in the debate teacher retired and so they were asking around and the only thing

I knew about debate was well, there's Logical fallacies involved and I was like a huge fan of philosophy

I took a couple classes in theology, but then like just reading things on the side And so I'm like,

I think I could do that. So I Got into it, but then I didn't realize that. Oh, there's this whole broad category called forensics which is basically debate like like Public forum debates

Lincoln Douglas debates, you know all that policy, but then on the other side in terms of category

There's what's called like humorous interpretation dramatic interpretation There's all these it's almost like these monologues like if actors go out to audition for a part

They would read these things and that's ultimately what the other side of Forensics is

I was not prepared for any of that. So like I basically bit off way more than I could chew

It was at a school that was in North Town. So there were no resources There was no money most of my students were not getting out to the tournaments every weekend because they just couldn't afford it they didn't even have clothes like to put on to go, you know,

I mean cuz like you got to dress up and But the the couple that did like there was a couple of ladies.

She they reached out to me years later I transferred to another school and they were like because of you.

Mr. Sala, you know, we're going on to study law And I was like, oh my gosh, like that's that's awesome

And so nobody taught me anything. I basically fell into it backwards Somebody helped me out with like their own lesson plans another debate teacher from another school that I met basically emailed me all of his lesson plans and I just went through there and just tried to like figure out what

The heck to do week by week You learned on the job basically, which I learned on the job, which

I'm a school teacher as well and oh wow Yeah, so and and there's a lot you learn on the job

They don't prepare you enough in college for the actual classroom I think I learned more

Being in front of a class than sitting in a classroom learning how to be in front of a class if that makes sense

Oh, yeah. No, I hear you But some of the things that I realized were quote -unquote best practices with my students was number one

We practice debates all the time. We would practice debates. We would get into drills. I would have my students

Especially realizing that not a lot of them were ever gonna go to tournaments. We would do mock tournaments So we would get together and pair up with people

They would have to write what are called argument briefs, which are basically arguments from one side of a particular topic

They would have to write both of them. So like for affirmative and The negative they would have to write and then we would flip a coin and then they would learn on the spot

Hey, I'm actually arguing the affirmative so they would do a lot of that stuff we would do probably one of the the the number one questions

I get from like my audience is Like what should I do to get better at debate?

Here's the number one thing that I've realized really helps everybody you take a transcript of a debate and you annotate it so like the debate itself if you can find like a

Transcript transcript of the words on a paper of what is being said if you can print that out and look at print it out

What am I if you can get it on your device? And then you look at it because with your eyes you can visualize okay, there's the claim there's the evidence that's supporting the claim and there's the

So we followed what was called the Tolman model of argumentation. So claim data warrant, you know, the warrant justifies

The is the warrant is the explanation for how the data justifies the claim Okay so we have to annotate all that stuff identify all that stuff out and I found that that is probably the number one thing you

Can do to like improve Your skill. Hmm. So I mean this is helpful because William Lane Craig you know

Has all of his debates transcribed on reasonable faith. There you go So and again,

I as I said before I'm a presuppositionalist, but I've learned a lot from reading through Debates and listening to base people who

I don't necessarily agree every jot and tittle and I think that's a perfect way to kind of Analyze even the opponent's perspective because the people he debates are top -notch thinkers in their field

That's a really good way to kind of get you know, the structure of the basics of their argument.

So that's an excellent That's an excellent. I mean I've done it before but it's not something I've thought about in terms of doing more intentionally

I think that and I enjoy Reading transcripts because it's faster than if I'm reading a book because I'm right.

It's just going there just it's like they're talking So it's it's very easy Excellent. That's really good. That's really helpful.

Yeah, can I add one more thing Eli? Sure. Sure the the thing that is not Attractive, right?

There was another word. I was gonna say when it starts with an S, but it's just not very attractive to say this right because people are looking for that quick fix, but It just you have to do the hard work, right

One of the other things that I'm asked is like, how do you you know? Like you immediately hear something and you recognize what you're hearing and and whether or not that's an answer to a question

Yeah, it's because I'm looking at these transcripts man I've been doing this for like, you know months and months add up to years you you once you develop that muscle

It's very quick for you to be able to hear something and go. Oh, okay. That is not a substantive answer to the question

He avoided the question. He's filibustering, etc, etc. Hmm. Excellent. Excellent. All right.

Well, so let's transfer over into some of the debates you've reviewed What is the least favorite so when you're kind of like, oh,

I mean this was a pretty bad argument Or this was a pretty lame debate people wanted me to Review this one

I did and it's just kind of like, you know Which is your least favorite debate that you've reviewed on your channel and why?

I Don't know if this is gonna answer the question. So to come to mind and for different reasons So, first of all,

I'm in my 40s, so I don't remember two weeks ago let alone Like I've done.

I don't know how many videos I've done now, but I do remember like any

Matt Dillahunty debate Just really it put like the gag reflex.

I really stand Because I there's two reasons why

I don't like watching Matt Dillahunty debates number one because there's no substance there's hardly any substance there and partially,

I think what makes me so Angry if that's the right word When I watch

Matt Dillahunty is I feel like he knows better I feel like he he's smart enough

It seems to me to be able to put in the hard work to make substantive arguments But he doesn't and so that even makes me more upset

You know, but that's the first thing the second thing is The the the way that he commands

Authority it like it's just really it's really it's an interesting phenomena

I think I was talking to Trent Horne about this But like you you can agree to debate Matt Dillahunty.

Have you debated Matt Dillahunty before? I was invited to and I turned it down because Well, I have three kids so I don't have time to prepare

Yeah, a lot of people don't know this and I'll let you finish but a lot of people don't know this One of the reasons why

I do interviews on my channel is number one I love talking to people and I think it's really interesting

But it's it's usually because I don't have time to prepare stuff to teach myself

Like to give so I do every now and then but the I have a theological and apologetics background

So when I interview people I already kind of know what to ask in the direction to go, but it's easier So it takes less prep. So I haven't debated him.

I turned I turned an invitation to do so down Because just a lack of time. So yeah, well, and maybe that's something else to talk about but your prep time for debate

I mean that's substantial. Yes, so if you want to do this correctly, but anyway, yeah,

I I just you could debate Matt Dillahunty say yeah, I'm gonna debate Matt Dillahunty You could have 500 subscribers on your channel

But all of a sudden your debate with Matt Dillahunty now is a hundred thousand views and they're all his followers

Like he's got these followers. It doesn't matter what he does. There was a there was a moment Well, I don't know if I'm gonna turn your audience off There was a moment in the election in 2016

Trump was like I could basically go out in the street and shoot somebody and it wouldn't matter And it's like that's how I feel like Matt Dillahunty's followers

Like he could murder somebody on camera and they would be like, well, he's correct, you know It's like wow

So anything to do with Matt Dillahunty and people keep asking me and I'm like, you know what the last one was the last one

I can't stand it. I can't I can't sit through this anymore Okay, that's the first one. The second one was the

James White Leighton flowers debate Be very careful because sometimes

Pops his head in some of the comments sometimes not a lot If he hears what you're about to say, he will make a four -hour

Right no, I to me the debate itself was probably the easiest to adjudicate because There there were the way that it went like, you know, it really wasn't.

Oh, well. Okay. Sorry Leighton It really wasn't lion versus lion. It was more like lion versus bunny rabbit in my opinion

And so, you know that that was easy, you know, I was like, okay this this is happening

This isn't happening over here and I laid out I think I did this like I laid out the criteria at the beginning of how

I was going to judge the debate and so I was like, well, there you go I had my flow and I realized yep, that's it.

So it was pretty easy but the aftermath that that I did

I have a huge distaste for all of that and the reason is again I said this at the beginning. I'm I do not want to be somebody there's a lot of channels out there who they point out

Differences and I think that's important. Okay, I'm not discounting that at all They point out the differences between doctrine and they point out the areas of problems

Problematic things that are going on in the church and all that stuff. I don't want to be a voice in that arena I want to be somebody who as much as we can challenge the status quo of tribalism and clashing and try to Unify as much as possible and I'm not gonna

I'm a Protestant. Okay, I'm not Catholic So I don't hate to burst anybody's bubble I had Trent Horne on but I'm not

Catholic and and I hold to my convictions Solo scripture and all that very closely very seriously, but if I can work and stand shoulder -to -shoulder with somebody like Trent Horne, I'll do it

So, okay So in terms of the the latent flower discussion James White So you're saying it was easy to adjudicate because it was clear that one side was doing what they were supposed to do in The debate and that's it.

That's regardless if you agree with their position or not That's right was doing what they were supposed to be doing and the other person

Was not doing Referring to Eli, I'm just kidding.

I I'm Leighton and I are cool. We're Buddies, not really, but I don't really talk to him a lot.

But you know, he's a nice guy But yeah, so in terms of just what you're expected to do it at a debate

Leighton didn't really bring what he was supposed to to address the specific topic. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. Yeah Okay, essentially. All right, so, um Let's shift from that one.

Okay good. That was safe. We navigated those waters without saying anything too controversial Okay I'm sure it was fun though to know that there was some history there

You wanted to kind of like, all right, I don't want to get into that mess. There's definitely history there Unfortunately, but um, yeah at any rate, okay

So, okay, so you have the latent flowers you have the late flower James White the Matt Delahunty and anyone

Who's your worst? What is your favorite debate number one and number two?

What was the most difficult debate for you to adjudicate like it was like well like this

These two debaters are excellent, and it's very hard for me to kind of see who say who won

Boy yeah so the the ones that I generally love to watch are the

They're it's like in my opinion. It's like Rocky versus Ivan Drago, right?

you know like you just give a punch take a punch and Probably the

I mean the James White versus Trent horn debate. Okay. I thought was was pretty good and You know,

I mean Here's the thing like I try to remain objective and not share exactly like what my specific thoughts are

When it comes to especially to end like trying to call them intramural debates or whatever Sure, because I really do want to focus on the the skills the tactics of strategy but I Try to put myself in devil's advocates position and and sort of go both sides and go

What would I do if I were in that person's shoes and to me? They were both doing exactly what

I what I would have taught my students to do. You know, it's it's just really great it was it was a really fun debate to watch another one along those lines was what's the

William Lane Craig and Shelly Kagan debate. Yes Yeah, I listened to that a while back and I I did think that the the atheist there

He did an excellent job and just in terms of skill and right I mean,

I didn't I don't I I think his view is obviously problematic, but I think he was able to hold his own

Enough to give a good back -and -forth there totally agree, you know, so and I It is what it you're gonna have to go back and watch the the video

But I was I was pleasantly surprised to see somebody that was putting up such a fight, you know

Yes, and the most difficult one to judge Boy I Don't know

I did I stop the debate teacher? Oh, I don't think

Anyone has been particularly difficult. Okay. Okay, that's fair. I I do well, okay

I will say this the the ones where they're way in form. So here's the trick, right? Apologetics debates typically speaking.

They're not formal debates at all. Okay, they they seem more like conversational town hall style, you know

Back and forth a lot of the debates now like with capturing Christianity and who's the other guy with Aquinas pints with Aquinas Yeah, it's a lot of like let's just talk to each other and you know, they have the third party moderator also stepping in Those are more difficult for me because the way my brain works like I'm already

Stretching so far to get the formal rules of debate and squash it down on top of informal debates to to even further like Make that complex

And and and make it it just makes it really difficult for me to figure out like who a winner is, you know

When there's no clear contention stated, there's no clear rebuttals, you know So like the Jordan Peterson Sam Harris video that was hard Not because like I couldn't keep up with what they were saying or something

I didn't know how to adjudicate at the end of the day. I don't even think I did I Don't remember somebody's have to fact -check me on that Those kinds of things this one with William Lane Craig and Anything with unbelievable, you know, because Justin Briarley, I love

Justin Brown I love that show but Justin Briarley will jump into the conversation and become a third voice

When you know in formal debates, it's really interlocutor to interlocutor. So yeah, those are the most difficult ones for me

Yeah Excellent now Who is your favorite debater individual

Of all time if you if you had to pick it's kind of like, you know, who it's what's your favorite movie?

It's really hard to answer. Who is who do you think right now? Okay, who is your favorite debater?

Yeah, maybe the answer to this is the same and who do you think is the best debater right now? My favorite who's the best?

I mean, it's probably the same answer, right? No, sometimes I mean there there are people who are I don't think are the best But they're my favorite to listen to because I think they're more entertaining in the way they engage the issue

So There is no but there is no perfect debate and there is no perfect debater and you know

Spoiler alert, but both William Lane Craig and James White in my opinion On the video tomorrow.

They made mistakes. They made some mistakes Having said that and I don't even agree with everything that this person says or or believes

Sure, I think William Lane Craig is probably the best on balance considering everything now

So I'm not just talking about what comes out of his mouth, but also his non -verbals there's a lot of things that go into debate that you

He's got one of the Incredulous Pretty good non -verbals.

It's it's funny. Well, and he's on balance he so he has his moments to where it looks like he's smelling a fart and But you know, can

I say that on your channel, but he's not watching it. Is he is William Lane Craig watching this? No Kevin Harris might

Kevin Harris might he might watch it. Whoops. I look I love everybody. Okay, it's just a joke, but The on balance the non -verbals need to be controlled and so because this goes into furthering you know your ethos pathos logos like you you have to be a full

Your presentation has to be across the board robust And I think when you consider it that way

William Lane Craig is probably the best that I can that I can think of with it with a few close runner -ups

James White is Actually really great, too I'll spoil it for you, but I make a comment about his non -verbals in the

Unbelievable discussion because it looked like he wanted to murder somebody half the time. So James White James White.

Yeah Wondered out loud in the video I don't want to give too much away But I wondered out loud if he knows his cameras on you know, which you sometimes

I guess you can forget I don't know but yeah that was that wasn't and so everything has to be controlled in that way, but he is actually

When he speaks is probably one of the best I've ever seen James White Trent Horn, too is probably you know, one of the best in terms of like Anticipating the other side

Trent's probably one of the best I've ever seen. I I agree again, and I and what

I liked what you said in terms of You're just talking about skill now. So for example, you just said you're a

Protestant right so you don't share Trent horns perspective, however However on from a perspective of skill

I mean someone to be an idiot to not be able to acknowledge at a debate level like he knows what he's doing

Yeah, and observing debates of by Trent horn and anyone else you could learn a lot

And I think there's there's a lot to be a lot to be said there. So I would agree out of Non -protestant debaters

Trent horn is definitely up there for me in terms of skill Lane Craig, of course the

Protestant side. He's he I Go ahead. Did you want to say something? I remembered somebody

Jeff Durbin Jeff Durbin has to be Yeah, one of one of the best that I've seen as well

Nonverbals are very controlled Really doesn't he trims the fat? There's not a lot of wasted words with Jeff Durbin I really appreciate that too, but I haven't seen a whole lot of Debate so when

I was teaching there was no time to keep up with a lot of debates Okay, literally like the last apologetics debate

I remember watching was and I don't remember what year this was Sean Carroll versus William Lane Craig.

Oh, wow That's so there's a gap. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Oh, wow Where I'm coming back to this as somebody retired now from teaching

Last year or whatever and whenever that whenever that debate was so you're basically you're basically sure

I'll review a debate by Matt Delonte Who is Matt Delonte again? Well, that's exactly what happened.

I was like, okay Cuz I get everybody votes on in my community. We I asked him what they want.

I give him some choices They tell me what they want to see so I do it the first time I saw Matt Dylan. I'm like cool So then

I start watching the debate. I'm like what who is this? You know, so yeah I me personally

I do One of the one of the things I like about a presuppositional approach and it has nothing to do with its truth like whether it's

The the view the the method you should use, you know I think it is but this element of it that I like is

That it tends to be a little more aggressive in terms of its its attack.

It's attacking Foundation so I find that people who are presuppositional is tend to be more aggressive in their argumentation than someone who is

Saying hey, we're gonna leave our bias outside and kind of just follow the evidence where it goes so it's interesting to see the two methodologies or the however methodologies that some methodologies tend to be a little more aggressive than others while the more the less aggressive ones tend to focus on a

Different tact and it's awesome in its own right as well. But I like in debate at least in terms of Entertainment I do

Good presuppositional debate because it it tends to be a little bit more on the aggressive side and that's interesting to me because you know,

I Will say that the approach is a good one, you know, especially in that more formal sense

So that I don't know if we get to this but I absolutely do not advocate that people who consume

Lots of debates and watch them should then go out and try to mimic that Just whatever they see a great side in a regular conversation,

I think that's a recipe for disaster but on the formal side people who are skilled in presuppositional

Apologetics methods like Jeff Durbin, for example. Hmm. Yeah, you're right Like they don't they don't even let people get like if there was a plane that was about to take off They wouldn't even let it taxi onto the runway, you know

Because they're like wait a sec Like what are you using in order to make this argument in the first place? And there is no response to that, you know, it's like You know somebody coming in to use my toilet and then telling me

I have no plumbing It's like well, you know, come on dude, like you can't you can't do that. So that's great

The transcendental arguments great the problem of induction. I think oh, yeah, Jeff Durbin and James White. I did a video on that Yeah, and they brought up the problem of induction.

There's no coming back from that You know, some people think there is but I'm not convinced. I think it's still a good a good point to use there

Yeah, I know. I know a guy who thinks that it's not that it's answerable. He's a Christian He thinks atheists are able to answer it

I disagree, but I think it's an excellent. It's still an excellent point to bring up Greg Bonson used it in his debate with Gordon Stein and Edward Tabach which which leads me as someone asked a question here

Nate will you be reviewed if you're on revealed apologetics? I have to ask you this because we here at revealed apologetics.

We promote a presuppositional approach I have to ask you. Are you going to be reviewing the

Bonson Stein debate at any point boy? I would love to I would love to I've been waiting for that one

But like I said, I've constrained myself to the votes in the votes Multiple times I put that debate up for vote and it did not win any of the times

So if whoever's asking can rally the troops at my community and and get it to win the vote

Or maybe I just do an executive decision. What do you think Eli and just do it? Well you I mean you're the you're the boss

I could I could tell people go go to his channel his next live stream and just Super chat him. Maybe that'll convince them just Right now

I There's no way there's no possible world anybody WLC anybody.