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Boom pop pow we did it hunter. We did it. Welcome to the point-taking Podcast you're gonna love today's episode. Today's episode is about Roman Catholicism. We have two guests on today Amanda and Owen talking about their experiences.
How were they were raised Catholic? Good the bad and the ugly. This is not a bashing episode. This is an episode about learning about the truth and where we can gently correct others and help others see through that.
Of course all denominations are faulty correct. The question is which one gets the closest to following God's Word. And Yeah, we had a lot of fun today. I thought it was a pretty excellent episode. So you're in for a ride.
Oh, yeah for sure, so without further ado enjoy and Yeah, let us know anything you like about the episode and put in the comments. Enjoy the podcast. How was it getting baptized this morning, bro?
Fully a full honesty. I was nervous like really nervous, you know, it's like the the I'm not worthy enough to you know be dunked, you know be baptized and. But it's I couldn't I just I saw a video of it.
I couldn't stop smiling Like I I bet I looked like a idiot up there but hey, it's the that's not the point, you know and. Afterwards, I was making a joke with with Justin and I was like, yep. We don't we're not getting we can't send anymore.
We're done. Yeah, right. Yeah.
Yeah, no, I.
Did.
It's like a big smile, you know, so listen, this is why I love this. Because We're still getting to know each other. How long you've been coming to this church. Two months maybe at the most. I heard a story about how you and Spencer and maybe JR found this place.
But I want to hear it from yes. Yes talking about it. Yeah, so.
To back it up a little bit about Seven six to seven months ago now I would have told you God does not exist. I would have been I would have been as I put it I would have been not afraid to say no. Yeah, like I was confident in it the Spencer and JR he wasn't with us.
We brought him later, but they had both. Kind of been on that journey with me where we left the church. They they they came back to it much earlier than I did. But it had been something that was calling on my heart.
So I was like, you know what? I kind of explained it to my friend this way. It's like a. If you're looking through a glass door I can't prove to you that that room behind the glass door is windy until you step in that room.
Then you'll feel that it's windy. So I was like, let me get back into it. Went to a couple of churches some that I had known about some that I found on Google. Nothing felt right. So the very first time I've ever done this and I've been to plenty of churches in and around the city of Memphis the very.
First time I was like, you know what? I'm gonna get in the truck and I'm just gonna drive. The Lord will take me where I need to go and Spence and I we were in the truck driving around. We pulled into a church service wasn't for an hour.
We saw some of these mega churches were like we don't necessarily want to go there. We pulled in we get coffee or going through we order our coffee right as we get our coffee Spence he's like dang. We should order some food.
I'm hungry and I'm like, you're right. We should order some food. I'm starving so we leave the it was the The Starbucks on Witten and we just drove got down to the the light at Witten saw the church on the corner.
I was like, hey, they have a 1030 service. Let's pull in there we pull in. Firstly Spence and I would love motorcycles. So when we saw the motorcycle ministry a group of Harley sitting outside. We're like, okay.
This is probably the place to be so we walk in and I.
Think it was you. Even we walk. What a terrible.
So we walk in. Spence jokingly says, all right, let's go stand in the back and I'm like, yeah. We'll stand in the back until someone walks up to us and introduces himself. Yeah, not five seconds later.
You walk up and you're like, who do y 'all know here and I went. Oh, well Josiah. We know you now and then you're like, okay who told y 'all about big breakfast day and they're like, what do you mean?
You're like, yeah free breakfast. Eat as much as you want if you're hungry. And. Essentially what went through my head there was one I asked the Lord to bring me to the church I needed to be and he brought me here and I I mean I've never wanted to go back to a church before a Sunday, but I'm here Wednesday.
I'm wanting the meal. You know, I I want to come back after Sunday. I love everybody that I saw just gravy and eggs can work miracle. Literally, that's the story. And another thing that I thought was crazy was on the way.
The one thing that and I didn't even necessarily directly ask God, but I put out that I was unsatisfied in hunger. I show up to a church and immediately that hunger is satisfied literally and spiritually and it.
It's hard to look past, you know, okay. Yeah. Yeah, so it's wild. Amanda. Talk to me about your journey the main Idea of you wanted to speak some and and and Anna wanted you talk some about your Roman Catholic upbringing.
So tell us a little bit about that and let's assume their audience doesn't know much about Roman Catholicism. We want to for just to set the scene. In the areas where we want to correct. We want to do it in humility.
Reasons to be against the Roman Catholic Church or not because the Pope dress is funny or because they speak a different language. That's that's not that's not real things. The only thing that matters.
You put your Bible down. It's about to use it as a.
Did you put it on the ground? It's not the bottom book. It's the okay. Okay.
Any.
Push back we would have would be based on what this says and if you're listening, I'm holding a Bible right now. So talk to us a little bit about your journey where you started how long you were in that why that kind of stuff?
Well, I was in it since birth. Okay, so I got baptized. Yeah, yeah christened and all right. I mean, so basically both of my parents were Catholic. My dad didn't really practice. He wasn't really like Christian, but his parents were Catholic.
My mom's parents were Catholic both got divorced. Parents met anyway, so we were raised Catholic. Even though my dad didn't really go to church with us. My mom usually was the one taking us to church.
So got baptized confirmed, you know. Confession all the stuff. So then once I got into college I was in a sorority with you know. Different people and stuff like that. And so a lot we're like, hey, you can come to church with me.
We go to this. You know Presbyterian ministry at Memphis and we do all these, you know different things and so at the U of M.
Uh-huh. Yeah, I know what you're talking about because they have a row of a bunch of prayers. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, so I went on a mission trip with them and while on that mission trip I just kind of I was more challenged because I had never grown up being like, oh you need to do Bible verse memorization. You need to read your own Bible.
You need to have a relationship with God read to you. You let them be the ones. Yes. Yes, and so for me, that's kind of when it started and That's where it took off from so I went from going on that mission trip.
Then I started going to different churches in Memphis and stuff. And so I've been to a church with my friend that was Church of Christ. I've been Methodist. I've been to Presbyterian I've been to like not a non-denominational and so really what happened was I was going to a non-denominational church then Cody and I met and then Good old coach sir, then ain't it's like hey y 'all should go to my church because we were looking for someone to do Pre like marriage counseling with us.
And so we met Pastor Jeff and from there. Here we are. So there's another first impression. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I know we left him instantly. It was funny. So yeah, that was kind of where I came from.
So, okay, so. You are in I guess we'll say a Baptist congregation right now and as well are you and. You grew up mostly I know you said a few minutes ago, there is no God a few months ago. But you grow.
We grew up Catholic, yeah, so catechized. Confirmation first communion. Yeah.
Yeah, I was. I was in a Catholic school from the ages of three to seven and we went to the same high school.
Yeah, exactly. Chris brothers high school. Yeah, it is a it is a good school. Yeah. Yeah an amazing. I wouldn't trade private education for anything. I'm a bit older than you. That entire back building was parking lot that whole.
What do y 'all call it development center? It's for story. Yeah, that wasn't there. Uh-huh. Listen, that was that was where I parked.
Yeah, okay. I don't know after you leave. I don't know.
That was all filled parking spots, I don't know how y 'all do it now. Yeah, that's an excellent school. Oh, yeah. They if you remember there if they still have it. If you are Catholic you take religion class, right?
Anything not Catholic you take ethics class. Yeah taught by a Roman Catholic. What do you know?
Is mr. Lucchese still there. He's still there at least while I was there.
He was dude if Luke Casey listen, if you watch this for the reason, I love you, and I miss you. You're the man and that he always did me, right? I appreciate him so much all right, so Let's talk about this so Spencer.
The growing up Owen, I said that one you said Spencer I said.
Yeah, don't. Yeah. Make sure yeah.
Spencer did I say. I said, oh, thank you. Okay. Cool. Yeah said Owen. That's my bad. Yeah.
So.
Owen yes growing up. How much did you read study learn. This it was.
I mean I daily had I mean Bible classes, I mean from the moment that we could comprehend what the Bible was. There was somebody teaching it to us. I will have to say in my experience. I never got the Let us teach it to you.
Don't go figure it out for yourself. It was always figure this out for yourself. It was always this is what we believe but you know, it's not a don't go and do your own research. I was very lucky and I will have to say there are a few things that you know that I was taught that when been reading the scriptures.
You're like I don't necessarily see that, you know pertain to anything. That was actually in the Bible, you know, you know.
And this is a good Additive here and pastor Christian would agree with me on this. The greatest thing I could ever teach anyone as a pastor is how to read the Bible for themselves. God's spirit illumines people's minds to reading his word.
There is Something false some error in every form of religion and every denomination of Christianity. There is no perfect Adaptation of what the scripture teaches because men are the ones teaching it.
What you want in a church. Here's what you want. If you're like, what here's what you want. You want a place that teaches and loves God's Word above everything else number one. You want a place where you can serve too and you want a place that can hold you to a standard?
That's what you want. If you can have that I don't care what the name on the sign says that is what you want having said that. There are some Unfortunate teachings in Rome. Some of them are bigger deals than others.
Amanda growing up. Did you you you said you did the catechism class and all that stuff, right?
Well, we so I went to school kindergarten through high school. You also didn't have catechism.
By the way early in school that is one by the way. That is one of the greatest things Roman Catholic Church has done not just in America in the world. Education. They deserve so much credit. They have done Baptists like to brag about missions and the Baptists have done missions amazingly in their history.
Roman Catholics hospitals educations orphanages and Stances on abortion no matter what the country I'm parallel that it is. It is respectable. But anyway, so.
How much of this did you understand growing up? Um, I think I had like an elementary school. Understanding of the Bible honestly, like my mom would read us like children's Bibles basically and I had a Bible.
But it was the Catholic Bible. Mm-hmm. And so I never understood why people were like, oh, well, I have this version of the Bible and I'm like Well, I have this one and they're like, well, that's not a Bible and I'm like, is it not?
Have you come to understand that now or not yet? Yes. All right, go ahead.
So I know that you have described it before specifically, but then I've listened to podcasts and stuff like that also. No, you did a good job. No, it's.
The reason why we have our current president who's been elected because a podcast.
Okay, I got it. So basically they said like you had before that. Oh, there we go. That basically like, you know you have All these different versions from different like places in the world of the same book and they're like, how do you do that?
Or not versions, but they have different copies. Yeah, right. Sorry copies of the same book in different Parts of the world and they're like, how would that happen? So there's been preserved documents from the like Old Testament books and I don't even know where I'm going with this hold on so.
Basically, they were saying the specific books that were put into the this Bible the like King James.
Like Protestant.
Modern. Not the Catholic Bible. The other books were added because they're Inspired but they're not like they're inspiring but they're not inspired by God. Because they've been proven to not be a good little phrase they have been proven to not be like historically Accurate like they're not like the Jewish law or whatever.
They wouldn't be the same as what was actually going on in that time. Like they would seem like they were written past when they were supposed to be written. I.
Told her this this morning this morning and in Sunday school when she started talking about Second or first Timothy. I'm just like you've learned so much because I know her husband was. So before I feel it sometimes yeah, yeah, it's true though.
Yeah, I want to mention What she's referring to about the Apocrypha in a moment, but are you still working through that or have you come to know? I have the quote extra books of the Bible the Apocrypha Whatever words you want to call it the deuterocanonical books is how normally Rome defines them, right?
I think kind of what you were alluding to was the I think was it six seven books six books.
There's seven books and then a handful of extra chapters in Daniel and Esther and.
Jeremiah we have we have what like 5 ,200 original manuscripts of the Old Testament. Is that what it is? I got some better for you.
We have 5 ,800 of the New Testament alone. That's what. Okay. That's the New Testament. That's not even including the Old Testament, right?
And I think what you're alluding to is when you and there was some sort of council that we held to decide. What what what goes in? I don't remember what the name was. But the the books that are in the Catholic Bible, they don't necessarily meet all of that criteria.
And so I've come to learn that through Wednesday Bible studies and stuff. All right, right before I go.
Do you want to add anything to that? Okay, so just if you may. So the Deuterocanonical books second canon is how Rome typically defines them. They don't prefer the term apocrypha, but that's what most Protestants use in the Old Testament.
Added is Sirach, Baruch, 1st, 2nd Maccabees.
Not wisdom. I think I thought it was wisdom. Wisdom.
Tobit Tobit and then I forgot the I forgot the seventh one. Anyway, and then there's a few extra chapters in Daniel and then a couple extra chapters and verses and Esther and then I think Jeremiah so long story short, and by the way, I mean this in no type of Harshness or polemic style just a statement of fact if you want to simplify it all of those books were written between Malachi and the coming of Jesus.
So they are by far the newest books of the Old Testament. It's not even close. I'm gonna follow me on that. Yeah, they were written during that time period after Malachi. So in the intertestamental period.
No, I know Rome would not agree with that term in between the two Testaments and they're there in that time all of them. Because they're in that time. Most of them are originally written in Greek because that was that became the language after some guy named Alex murdered a bunch of people.
And now we call him the great. He spread Greek to the known world. But long story short the simplest way I can put it is Josiah, why do you reject those books as inspired by God? Because Jesus and the Apostles never quoted from them as authoritative Peter John James.
Jesus quoted from Isaiah that quoted from Jonah that quoted from Genesis that they knew these books existed. These are not witchcraft Ouija board. They're just books. I've read them and I encourage other Christians to read them.
In fact, if you read first and second Maccabees. You get the origin story of the Pharisees. You see if you don't when you read the book of Matthew. You're like who are these cats right and Matthew's writing it as if you're supposed to know who they are.
Well, their origin story is in Maccabees and you actually get to understand it. That's it. So they're historical books. However.
Jesus.
Peter Paul the Apostles had phrase such as as it is written right or according to the scripture and they never did that with those books and That is enough for me. Yeah, you know, that's that's enough for me.
It's um things like that in addition The Jewish Canon in Jesus day in every synagogue we have dug up and everyone. None of them have those books and their scrolls not one and we're pretty good at digging now.
Not one. So there there there's that. Okay, but besides that I do want to point out whenever it comes to Denominations you will always hear all the pastors of this church say Jesus said excuse me James said the brother of Jesus pure and undefiled religion before our God is To take care of widows and orphans and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
That is the only time the word religion is used in a positive light in the entire Bible. Every other time it is used in a negative light. So what was y 'all's thought process moving on from Deuteronomical about our buddy the Pope growing up.
What was y 'all's thought process? So for most of y 'all's lives because y 'all are about the same. You're my age 30. You're 33 holding 21. So we have John Paul put the second we have Francis John Paul the second Benedict Benedict and who was the one but that's most that's most of our that's most We John Paul the second was for a while John Paul the second Pope Benedict Pope Francis.
Is that the order? I so Benedict and okay on pot. Okay, so growing up. What was y 'all's thoughts on the Pope? I.
Don't remember my family specifically like paying that much attention to him. I do remember I think one of the new Popes became like the new Pope smoke from the gym. Yes in school and I think I was like fourth grade or something fourth or fifth grade.
I'm watching some chimney now 40 old men to make a decision here, but I'll actually have to say the Pope and the supposed infallibility of that person was probably if not the largest reason why I no longer believe all of the Catholic teaching a big point of contention in my household.
And it was just me being a little hot-headed and you.
Know wanting to argue pretty much.
But.
The idea and it was all kind of Catholic teaching. I don't.
I.
Don't know how much of this is a Christian view or just just specifically Catholicism.
The teaching that animals don't go to heaven because they don't have a soul and they don't have the choice to choose against God and I that makes sense to me. I was like, yeah, sure. That's how that would work.
Pope Francis comes out and says well dogs animals do go to heaven. But and it wasn't so much the well, I can't picture the dogs being in heaven or well.
No way, you know, it wasn't the it was. Where was that here?
It was it was the fact that they teach something one way. I mean I had Franciscan brothers. I had Lasallian brothers who taught me who would all verify yet. They don't have a soul. They don't have free will so they can't choose against God.
So there's no way to choose heaven. And so when I would bring that up my mother who is the closest thing to perfect that the earth has. But that she was always say well my dog was gonna be in heaven, you know, and I would be like well.
No, they won't but then Pope Francis who is infallible in the Catholic teaching comes out and says well.
No animals, but all the respect. If you're listening to this, he put a quotation mark. Oh, yeah. He was infallible. Yeah.
Yes, no human and there's not a human that is infallible.
It's almost like the Bible says something about that. Yeah for all have sinned and there's none of the word except there for all I've said.
But when he came out and and said that dogs animals who do go to heaven, it's a contradiction. They can't not and go to heaven. And when I'm sitting here looking at the man the Pope who is a Man, I can't see a world where what you say Generally is infallible.
I know you've sinned. I know you are not infallible, but because of the position that men have awarded you You're allowed to make changes in God's Word. That doesn't fit right. Sit right with ya. I didn't like that either.
Yeah, and that was like especially all the new stuff. Yeah, he's come out and said biggest point of contention.
But I mean that I just I just recently said read something where they now Teach and you know believe what you want to believe they now teach that the Old Testament is isn't historical fact.
It's religious in fact when I was All right, I will not save a teacher because he might still be there. I remember Someone telling me when I was in school a Roman Catholic high school, which I already mentioned.
It's not important whether or not the flood actually happened. What's important is the lesson, right? Important if the whole world was flooded or if it was just a thing and I'm like, okay I hear you on that.
I remember being 15 and I was like But it says all of it. So if it's not if I can't trust it here Then why would I believe this part where it says he came back and rose from the dead three days exactly it either is or it isn't and that was.
I was always a kind of a black and white thing and He always focused on what was the moral of the story. I'm like I'm good with the moral story. But I want it to be true exactly and you know one of the things that helped me through that.
It's this little phrase in Matthew. I believe it's Matthew 12 and Jesus says as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights. So the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights and I'm like It just clicked for me.
So Jesus believed the story of Jonah was true, right? Okay. Yeah, right like Jesus. That little phrase and he does that a bunch of times he'll just say something like according to the Prophet Isaiah. Oh.
So he believes Isaiah actually wrote this right? Right. That was mind-boggling for me because I was always like I want to have the same view of the Bible. Jesus did. Jesus thought Jonah was a real dude.
Jesus thought the world was created in six days. I want to believe whatever Jesus believed right? It was that simple for me.
One thing I will have to say is I was talking to I think it's this one would have been a Franciscan brother. And I just kind of asked him. I said How do we get the idea that the Pope is infallible. And there was one Scripture that he brought up and it was because Peter Matthew 16 18.
His response was Inspired by God. So then that one response.
Blessed are you Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood not the real is to you. But my father who is in heaven, right?
And I was like I can see where then his response just then that was inspired by God was an infallible statement. But now two thousand some odd years later later after The many things that men have done wrong in the name of the church I can't imagine that you know that infallibility is that fallibility is stuck around.
Are you aware of Rome's defense of that because I am I couldn't do you do you? The defense of that is This is the Word of God. However, it is not the only Word of God and let me explain before I I don't mean other religious books.
That's what they would say. They would say what they call the Roman Magisterium. The Popes the Cardinals that everyone who is in Vatican all that stuff. They would say that there is the written tradition and the oral tradition and both are inspired by God.
So y 'all remember at the end of John when he says there are many things. There are many things Jesus did the which if they were written down the world cannot contain the books that would be written about.
Right. Do you remember when Paul says? What you have seen and heard for me practice these things when he says. The idea is that there has been an oral tradition passed down from the Apostles kept in the church in Rome.
So that whenever the spoke the Pope speaks infallibly. He is speaking something infallibly. That if it's not in the written Word of God it comes from the oral tradition of the Apostles that has been preserved by God.
From them. That's the idea that it has been orally preserved. It wasn't written down, but it's out there and That can be pulled from it. So if God didn't reveal it until 1894 under this Pope.
It's because God didn't intend right. That would be convenient to cloak your claim in spiritual.
So what they'll do is if you ask them.
Revelation from God. Stop in the first century or does it continue. So like our charismatic brethren would say it continues. Which is what's dangerous about right. Because then someone can claim to have a vision.
Joseph Smith. They yes, they would say it's it. They would say yes. It stopped in the first century, but it has not all been revealed. Has been preserved from the first century to today.
That's what they would say dispensation of illumination.
Yeah, but it's been preserved in the Apostles and. The line of the oral tradition from the Apostles has stayed in Rome since then is what they would say. I've been.
Doing a lot of research about Messianic Jews. So, you know people in the Jewish faith who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. That's right. And they are. The Jewish faith is very big on oral tradition like they have an oral tradition that I mean.
It's I think it's it's either a tent the Tanakh or the Talmud. I can't remember which one it is.
So it's actually the Tanakh is just a nickname for the Old Testament. Is that okay? What's the Talmud? So there is the Talmud and the Source of the G. Anyway, yes, it is the Jewish commentary of the Old Testament scriptures.
It's a compilation of the greatest Jewish scholars throughout history and it's a commentary on their interpretation of the scriptures, right?
And in doing that research the there's this one guy that will often Pop up because he's very outspoken about being a Messianic Jew and he will often bring up the fact that it you know.
Michael Brown. He's a man I love that man.
I couldn't I couldn't tell you this guy's name is off the top of my head. But he's often bringing up the fact that it's like oral tradition today. Can't be oral tradition tomorrow. We can't guarantee that.
I can always guarantee that I'm gonna open the word in this book and it's gonna be the same that it was 2 ,000 years ago. It's gonna be the same of those 5 ,800 manuscripts that we have. It's I try sometimes only when I'm interested.
At least I'm interested in this but you know. Like I said, you can open that book and it's gonna be those words each and every time no matter what language you're reading. No matter what translation you're reading.
It's gonna be those words, but with oral tradition today I could say my old tradition is that I'm six foot one. I'm not six foot one, you know, but I can say it. I can't you know I can't show it time and time again like the Bible can.
That's a good word. That's a good word.
So. That was your thoughts on the Pope. So you were kind of more like you just knew it was there but you didn't pay a lot of attention.
We didn't yeah I think there's a lot of like very like strict Catholics that are very very like into you know. Wearing the veils and the masks all that kind of stuff. They're very into the Pope, you know, like they know everything.
I did not I Don't remember like paying that much attention to it. Honestly, so.
What was the he said infallibility of Pope was one of the first things that kind of Turned him away and sounds like he chose the no God route for a while until he went to the word. What was one of the first things were you like?
Not so sure about this.
I think it was honestly just I didn't know much and I needed to like to know more and I didn't get like answers and so I was going to like other and like I said that that mission trip kind of opened my eyes, but It was the lack of knowledge for me and even now going to church or going to church my whole life and then going to Catholic school, it's like I still can't name like those councils.
I can't. I mean, I know there's like a council and I see it and I can't say Trent and I don't know them.
You know, there's 21 ecumenical councils. The first few are actually pretty cool and then it starts going awry for a while. So for example I'm gonna I'll say this gently. I'm gonna change one thing. You said, okay, go ahead.
You said there was a council that decided which books would be in the Bible that actually never happened. Okay, I know I'll show you there were councils that recognized what was already Scripture, right?
Okay. Yeah, and that's important. It's kind of like Council of Nicaea 325 super important. One of the main negatives of that council is called by the Emperor of Rome. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I Don't think you need to live in America more than a few days say we don't need our Leader being the one to lead the church in decision-making.
Yeah.
Don't care which careful we might actually see that now. Yeah. Yeah stop playing. So.
Yeah, cuz by the time this airs he'll probably have already taken office so that I mean that's about right so look. What what happens at the Council Nicaea. This is where many atheists will say this where Jesus became God.
No, it was a response. It was a defense to heresies that already been formed. One of the the only thing you need to know or one of the main things you need to know about the New Testament canon is That the church Broken up and persecuted as it was we're all reading the same books.
Now you can go back in the second third century and see people asking questions like okay Is that one God's Word or is it not and people will use that to show uncertainty? All that does for me is show that they took it seriously, right?
I mean that that's all that does for me. Here's the easiest way to verify the New Testament canon. The books in the New Testament. We only have 28 28 documents written by Christians. Period in the first century so it's surviving today right now everyone understands we have no original Scripture of writing like deep paper that pen.
Hmm that Paul used we have copies we have no original. But there are 28 Christian documents that date back to the first century, right? 27 of them are in your New Testament. The 28th is the book of Clement.
Who recognizes the others as scriptures and not his own, right? That's that's how early we're talking about 200 years for Constance ever born right before there's any councils. So, yeah, but back to back to Rome.
So growing up talk to me about your thoughts not just on the mass but on the Eucharist that's what they refer to as the Lord's Supper if you or communion talking about your thoughts on the Eucharist because This is something I have a lot of interest.
Yeah, that was a big one for me.
In specific the transubstantiation. So why don't you describe that so the transubstantiation is there is a sacrament? I think is what they technically the performed by our seven sacraments, and that's one of them performed by the priest over the bread and wine and when he does perform that sacrament it Trans transforms into the actual body in blood.
It's not a symbol. It's not a representation. It is the body and the blood of Christ in their mind and I went right back to the that's a man up there How does he have some bestowed power where he can Change body and blood.
I mean, you know bread and wine into body and blood. It kind of sounds like something Jesus did, you know, but now we have a man across we have thousands of men across the country who now have been bestowed a power to Basically perform a miracle, you know.
It's I just I couldn't see it as anything more than I mean I I'm very big on the Lord's Supper and the representation and you know, we do a part of one here. Yeah, exactly. We don't hear the one we did outside exactly.
Yeah. Yeah, and it being a symbol amazing. Awesome. Everybody should Partake in the Lord's Supper, but it it actually being transubstantiation. It actually being body and blood. I couldn't get behind I didn't see that as as truth.
I love the way you like think really deep and all this stuff. I feel like maybe I didn't pay attention. But like you're so like good at like thinking all this stuff, so I mean I Thank you. Like I just know that as Catholics.
It's like if you don't take the body and blood every like Sunday, you're like out of sync right right with God. So like it's like a it's like a necessary thing every week you go you you need to go. It's a it's a day of obligation, but it's like it's not really an obligation like you go to church, right?
But you also can't receive the body and blood of Christ while you're a sinner. But yes, somehow you take it each week, so we're not supposed to sin all week. That also something. Every Sunday. Yeah that also confession is a big one for me of why I don't yeah.
That one was kind of one of my first things. Yeah, actually. Oh, yeah. Well, unfortunately, that's another example of a beautiful word. Unfortunately meaning right exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have anything on that one?
Yeah, so I've never I was never raised Catholic.
My grandmother about Five six months before I was born became a Christian. There are two or three Hispanics in the world that are Catholic.
Maybe maybe maybe four.
And so I've only heard of Catholicism in passing or in podcasts anyway, so a couple months ago I went to a work trip in Denver and I decided to Go into a Catholic Church and see what's up. I went in and.
Beautiful.
Beautiful listen, but it can. We just need very large donations because we can't.
Anyway, I walked in and reverence complete. Yes. Yeah, which you know, okay cool. That's that's their way of worship. That's cool. I'll walk in and you know, there's this big old table in the front with what appears to be a I Don't know what it is like a cross That has something inside of it.
I'm assuming the bread. Yeah, and you would have people walking in from outside and Bowing down in front of it and then sitting down if he wants to go to the bathroom you get back up and you bow.
Down and you leave. Yeah, they have they have reverence for the Lord.
If they truly believe that bread and wine is the some of them treat. You know what that's reverence. Yeah, it might be that really was. Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's the logical conclusion and you know. Did I bow down in front of the bread and one absolutely not?
Did I partake. I I could not. Yeah. There's they had they had a little handout with the sermon information on it and towards the back.
They kind of explained it. Roman Catholic sermons are very interesting. We'll get to that later. It was very interesting. I took a lot of note in my interesting. Not always exciting. No, but interesting.
Yeah, but not always. I mean never never by the way.
And there was a section there was a section for Catholics. Hey, this is what?
Anyway.
This is what communion means. That's why you didn't know. And to the right there was a spot where non Catholics Protestants, yeah, and they said hey you guys are more than welcome to partake. I Physically like I I appreciate the gesture.
Thank you for inviting me into you know. What you think is one of the most holy things in the world. Mm-hmm but with the appropriate view of Scripture and if I We're unequally yoked here and I don't have fellowship with you and I I did feel sad about it.
But at the end of the day, you know reading the scriptures I physically cannot engage and stuff that I know is wrong. Right, even if it promotes because they really wanted that was the whole point of that piece on the on the notes.
It's unity. Rhea right, you know the Protestant Catholicism do this piece is a shit their efforts is everyone here aware of the.
The understanding of sacraments and Roman Catholicism. Yes. You are you are all right. So for any of our viewers just very quickly Rome teaches that God's grace has been dispensed through seven different means of grace.
All are contained within the church. So it has to be from the church that you receive this. In other words Remember when Jesus said I give use to the kingdom that excuse me. I Give you the keys to the kingdom.
Whatever you bind on earth is bound and whatever you bind and have right have is bound. What they understand that to mean is that God's grace is distributed through the church and only church. And unfortunately when they say the church They do mean Rome.
Yeah. Yeah. Or or her subsidiaries.
And.
So we have Chris. They have an excellent memory device, but basically they have infant baptism christening. They have Confirmation they have all these other ways marriage last rites called a priesthood so on and so forth.
One of them is the Eucharist. I Love the name Eucharist. If it did not have negative connotation already, we would take on the meaning Eucharist is a Greek word. It is the Greek word for Thanksgiving, right?
Which is the appropriate attitude for Lord separate for communion? I if it was not already the word Thanksgiving in the New Testament is Eucharist anyway. Here's basically the idea. There are two types of sins in Roman Catholicism.
There are venial sins and mortal sins. That they use this terminology with you. Okay, so why don't one of y 'all describe the difference. Because I know a textbook and I but right so off the top of my head.
The.
Mortal sin is when you commit the sin knowing it's a sin and you continue to do it. A venial sin is the. You know, I stubbed my toe and I said a curse word. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, venial sins are like lesser sins and mortal sins are like like you murdered someone, right?
Like you knew it was a sin you knew what you did now and yes now here is what Rome teaches about those. When someone is baptized an infant, they believe the sin guilt of Adam that was imputed to you is removed so Now they don't like to promote this very much.
So I'll just say it like it is. Therefore those infants that died Unbaptized then died in Adam and Those who did not those who were baptized died in grace. Now some popes have disputed that and there's actually a contradiction among the post about that which is interesting since they're both infallible but at any rate What they say is When you commit a mortal sin it quote this is from the Catholicism kills.
The justification bought to you by your baptism. Mm-hmm, and you need penance, which is the quote second plank of justification in order to receive that back and penance will look like Say ten Hail Marys attend church every Sunday for five weeks.
Make sure you read these four passages seven times things like this, right?
Okay, and then you can be rejustified. Is there a standard for that like a global Catholic standard? No, it's it's the father.
Yeah, so essentially the way I Remember it was that state of mortal sin Catholic Church teaches you cannot go into heaven in a state of right.
You die in mortal sin.
You're done. That's it. And so you were signing all of our tickets, but Essentially the only way to rid yourself of that mortal sin is to go to confession with a priest and then that priest will tell You what the penance is.
If that priest says you need to go say a Hail Mary. That's your penance. If that priest says you need to go say 45 our fathers and donate $1 ,000 to the church. That's your penance. It's what they say.
It is. There's no standard. There's no guideline. It's you're told and that's what it is a good gig. Exactly. Well.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of corruption in that. Oh, yeah, but but. That's the idea. So. You know the sad part is. In those are seven sacraments and and and all of them last rites. Yeah, the last rights all have to be through the church.
One of the main scriptures when I'm Evangelizing to a Roman Catholic is first Timothy 2 5. First Timothy 2 5. I'll let you turn there.
One of the biggest problems in my humble opinion with Roman Catholicism Is there's always one extra step. There's always one extra step always always always and what the blood of Jesus accomplishes for people is Not final and and that's what's at first Timothy 2 5 sir.
For there is one God and there is one mediator. Up. How many mediators. There's one mediator. Good. There's one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus. Keep going. Who gave himself as a ransom for all.
Which is the testimony given at a proper time.
There is one God and one mediator one go between between God and man the man Christ Jesus. Now what Rome would say would say right and it's through his church, right? But that's that's not what the scripture says.
No and just one more and I'll just quote this one. Hebrews 10 14 is one of the most freeing verses in the Bible and I wish I could take every one of my Roman Catholic friends and just Tattoo this backwards on their foreheads every time they look in the mirror.
Yeah Hebrews 10 14 says for by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being Sanctified. Yeah miss that again for by one offering. He has perfected. What tense is that Dalton? That's right past tense.
Good job buddy for about one offering he has perfected forever those who are being Sanctified. Yeah, so those who are in the process of being made holy have been perfected forever. Can you think of a more freeing verse in the entire Bible?
That's one thing that sticks with me is if you look at Catholicism and pretty much most other world religions other than Christianity Christ like, you know following the teachings and the words of Jesus Christ.
We're pretty much all screwed. I mean, yeah, if I was to if I being in a state of mortal sin and Death in the state of immortal sin puts me to hell. I love all of you, but we're all going to hell, you know, you look at all of these others religions Judaism everything.
It's you can work for it. You know, you have to you know, you have to be perfect you or you know with. With this the the debt that we all have because of our sins has already been paid. It's the only it's the only one where.
It's the only one where I actually think anybody has any chance of making it to heaven because everybody sucks just to put it Put it harshly. I mean I am a terrible person like I cussed more times than I'd like to admit.
I'm.
You know how much of a thought is take up in my brain. Don't cuss don't cuss. We can beep it out right? Yeah, right. I'll even I'll even have to say this. It's been something I've struggled with Spence the other day one of those weeks.
He was like I was talking about he's like Hey, man, I'm pretty sure you said the f-word to Pastor Jeff and I'm like I did what I don't even catch it. You know, I don't even know that I'm doing it if I had to follow any religion other than Jesus Christ.
My ticket. I already have a spot in hell and now my sins have been paid for. It's the only religion that I think actually. You can sit here and say that I am gonna go to heaven and there's only about four redheads that will be there.
You know. One of the things I want to make sure and I'm gonna pick on Baptist for a minute one of the things Protestants sometimes do is they overreact to Truly false teachings from Rome and go too far on the other side.
So let me let me give an example. You could read this book from start to finish and you will never find the words venial or mortal sin. So what are we talking about? If it's not the scripture, right? What you have on the other side that this will probably upset some people make sure you let me finish.
Is you have Baptists and Protestants saying things like well all sins are equal. That is not true. That is not true. And I can feel the tension through the camera right now. That is not true. All sins are not equal all sins equally.
Damn you. From heaven without the blood of Jesus no matter what the sentence, right? Okay, but we're Baptist mess up as I say, well, there's no such thing as venial mortal sins, which is true. So I'll say well, they're not let me explain God had differing levels of temporal punishment for sins when he created the law, so there are 613 laws in Exodus liticus numbers in Deuteronomy.
In in in the Sinai Covenant in the law for Moses the first hand we call the turn. Yeah, they're sick. No, that's just in those. I'm not talking about the whole Bible. Well, there are different punishments.
Yeah, there's only 16 of them. 16 that's that number. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah 16 of them. We're the death penalty, yeah, well that means that a bunch of the others were not. They didn't have jail. So there were fines there were Excommunicated for a while there were go outside the camp for a while there were there were you know, I mean.
Canoma, I could be wrong with I'm just now I'm kind of trying to go from you know cover to cover because I've never fully read through it cover to cover the Bible. But I'm on Leviticus right now. And I mean you even it's a tough one.
You can even see like the the law of the sin offering like there's different.
Offerings. Okay, you're in Leviticus right now. Yeah. All right. So look how far into it? Are you I. You had the part where he's like, I don't want this kidney not that kidney the right. Yeah.
Yeah, the left and it's like it's like it so it's like you'll see. And don't give me a line. I don't remember exactly everything but you'll see something something happens.
Doesn't know his rights and lefts. Oh, yeah, he would be he would be.
Some you commit one sin and oh for this one. You only have to give me a turtle dove, right? But for this one, I need your firstborn lamb. Yeah, right, right. It's just right there. He's like, well, I'm not too worried about that one.
But with that one, you need to give me your firstborn livestock.
So here's the balance. Here's the balance. All sin regardless of what you think is big or little even one is enough to Separate you from God for eternity. All sins are not equal in their temporal punishment their earthly punishment, right?
That that's that's the. The proper balance there. I hope that made sense someone. Okay. So look what else? We got a few more minutes. Do you want to share about about your journey about what you've learned or better yet?
Something you're learning now and you look back. You're like man. I wish I had known this ten years ago. Is there anything right now where you're like man if I had known this. Ten years ago. This would have made it all much more sense.
Think I mean, I just I see it a lot more specifically in kind of Protestant religions, but really at this church at Witten. Don't get me wrong we're called the preppy boys here because the way we dress I.
There's something about that reverence that I do enjoy and it's like If I if I went to a Catholic Church, no offense if I went to a Catholic Church in a t-shirt, oh wow. Oh, oh you get looked at you know, you get shunned you will someone will come up to you and tell you.
To the mess.
Exactly you were the example today not me. Yeah, exactly. What about these tattoos that are showing? But it's it's.
You.
Everybody's probably heard this. And if you haven't awesome. You don't come to the shower clean yourself and then get in the shower. You get in the shower dirty to get clean. You know, it doesn't matter the the come as you are.
That's something that I wish I would have got a lot more in the Catholic faith. And I I grew up I think the people around me in the Catholic faith other than the the few disagreements as we had. From what you hear about, you know, the the atrocities that some people in the Catholic Church are doing.
I never had to deal with any of that. The people I dealt with were amazing. Awesome people that genuinely just were teaching me so I could be saved I believe.
But the.
The like you said the showing tattoos the the the button-up the Come as you are idea saying like I don't care what you look like who you are what you're doing pastor Jeff even talked about today. We have homosexuals in our congregation.
That's not it's not the point of Get cleaned up for you come to church come to church and you can get clean. You know with our with our with our war room. We're not gonna say we're not gonna say well stop doing drugs before you come.
No, come to church and we're gonna help you stop. And I just I think there was such a with Catholicism such a level of well. You got to be perfect before you know, you can't be in sin before you have this Eucharist, you know.
You got to be perfect. It's got to be perfect. Perfect. Perfect. When here it's like, yeah, we know you suck.
But we're gonna help you try to suck. You're always gonna suck. We're gonna suck less to suck a little bit. We have an expression. We have exhaust fans in our bathroom, too. Yeah, it's just a kind way of saying your stuff.
Almost came out to you exhaust fans in our bathroom. Yeah, what about you? Yeah.
I mean one thing I'd like to say is I I really appreciate the fact that I grew up Catholic. I think that we have like a very unique Like viewpoint on things because like I think that crossing is like kind of hard sometimes.
Oh, yeah, especially like growing up I think there's a lot of people that I met that were Protestants and they made you seem like you were like So weird like oh my gosh, can't believe I would never date a Catholic like that's so strange.
Ash Wednesday is the worst. Ash Wednesday is the worst when they have the cross on.
Walk around people are like, oh don't touch them. They're unclean. Yeah, and it like turned me off for a long time, but I'm glad that obviously I saw through that right and like broke through that because like I just wanted to know so much more and I still am that way.
I still like want to know. Oh, yeah, but um. What was gonna say? Oh the not knowing where I was gonna go after I died. That was just a constant constant fear in my mind in the back of my mind. But in the back of my mind all the time, no, it's like you don't yeah, you didn't have that like.
Yeah, we have the same books like I have Romans, you know in my Bible as a Catholic. But like you didn't focus on it that way, right? It was.
Acts and faith, you know, one of the things I always want to do when I preach I don't want people to Understand the words I'm saying. I want them to understand how I got to that understanding. In other words if I'm reading Matthew 7 and it says Ask and will be given to you seek and you will find knock on the door will be open and I'm like Sometimes I pray and I don't receive what I pray when I make a sermon on that.
I don't want people to remember. These seven reasons are what your size says. The reasons you don't have what you want. I want people to see. That's what I see this saying yeah, and I want people to see my thoughts and where I got that from because They'll remember that and that's life-changing.
It's not the matter of Because my preacher said so who cares?
That was that was one of the biggest things and not to speak for Spencer and or or shoe. But we kind of did talk about this shoe. We're gonna call you shoot. Well, his last name is Shuler.
I call him sweet. We call him shoe. It's you. What's not you?
Is.
Why hadn't it with guess specifically Catholic priests? It's I'm better than you. I'm holier than thou. I mean the first one of the first things I heard pastor Jeff say was I can't save you. I can just show you where to find it.
I mean he is good about making sure everybody knows we're on the same level of corruptedness. Yeah, we're all we all have. We're all made of flesh at least twice a Sunday.
He'll say the whore on second review is as much in need of the grace as God as I am. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah No.
And it's it's nice to see and I urge anybody who does not attend their service at Witten to come and we should check it out. I had never seen a Preacher put themselves even on a lower pedestal than his congregation.
I'd never seen that before and that's what that's. What brought me back was just the person who Historically in the masses that I've been to is supposed to be the holier-than-thou. Oh, I can. I can put my hands over some bread and wine and it turns into body and blood, you know.
There was like this overarching idea of look at me and here I as as the person leading the service. He's even being like, yeah, I suck too y 'all and that's really awesome. I'd never seen that before.
Yeah, I just liked how I'm coming to this church. I was more challenged. Oh, yeah. And it really it really like put things in this perspective for me. And I feel like I finally like have a hope right.
Like a real hope.
You know unfortunately. And listen, let me just say this part before we get to our last thing. Because the question will come so Josiah Can Roman Catholics be saved. And here's my general answer?
Yes.
However there are many in The Roman faith who are Christians, but they are in spite of Rome's teachings. Not because of it if someone. There are people attending mass today that are truly trusting in Jesus for their salvation and Jesus alone.
But they do that in spite of the teaching of Rome's right. So can someone. Can someone? Looking to this to teach you how to be saved be a Christian. My answer is no. No. Because that teaches a false gospel.
But there are many Who because of the blessing of ignorance maybe is how Amanda was putting them are sitting in mass today and our believers. But one of the biggest Things that just breaks my heart. Rome does it?
The Mormons do it. Jehovah's Witness do it. Sometimes some of the Protestants do it. When you teach people they can have no assurance you can exploit them. Oh, yeah for money. For it to follow you to do it because they look to you as the only hope to have for assurance of salvation.
All of them. Well, yeah one more step. Oh, I actually messed it up here. All right, one more step. Now just do great for the rest of your life. By the way, you're 28 do great the rest your life. And you're like I'm damned.
I have no hope. I have no hope. I am damned to hell.
Without Jesus there's nothing you could do to get into heaven.
Five lifetimes and and the scripture teaches time and time again. I Will lose none The Father has given me but will raise them up on the last day. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know.
You have eternal life. We're so worried about death, but we're not gonna listen to the one person who's beating it. Yeah.
There was a time like us six months ago I would literally sat here and being like, where's your proof? Where's your proof? Oh, there's no God, you know, I. Not wasn't even a full year and then you know, you think well I am worried about when I die what happens?
Oh, well, there's evidence that this guy died and then walked again. Let me see what he has to say.
You know, he just said the word evidence the evidence. When someone says can you prove God exists? My answer is no. But the evidence is overwhelming. Proof is a mathematical term. You remember from geometry you had to do the proof.
Proofs a mathematical term. The evidence is overwhelming. I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I'm convinced because that's where the evidence leads me. I've got a question one final question for you, too.
But pastor you have anything to add or any last words on this. Just circling back to my grandmother being Catholic. When she first started asking questions Regarding the Catholic faith. She was shunned.
Yeah, and she was a lot like Martin Luther. I love when people have questions. Questions are awesome because you are looking and you will find. Yeah, but that's a script. This morning. No, but she didn't want to separate from the Catholic Church she wanted to.
If you answer my questions, I'm not gonna leave. It's just that simple. Yeah, but there was almost like a fear and a taboo of asking questions. Which you don't you're not gonna find here. As we invite we invite everyone every question any question any question.
We're not scared of any topic. Did I tell you?
That.
One of Jennifer's friends from FedEx wrote down 20 questions with an attitude of and no and no pastor can answer my question. Wow. And. And she brought him to me. And so like I was not rude, but I was super Super direct when I answered him.
I was like Yeah, this one's easy blah blah blah and I answered all of them. I typed it out. I typed the questions just as she wrote them. So not not.
Not.
Where are can you able. Where is they? Answered. I answered all of them. I answered all of them and then when I was done I said, all right. Here's the deal. I answered all these. I Don't need anything from you.
I have to request next time actually give me some difficult questions number two the next time it's in person. Yeah, yeah stuff like that. I love answering questions. But what you just described unfortunately, that's not just Catholics.
Any denomination Baptist president you any? Pastor or believer in general who is afraid to answer questions. It's really because they're insecure and they don't know the answer themselves. It's really what it is.
I'll have to say there's a weird.
Culture where Ignorance is taken as an offense. When I am like just recently I had somebody who identified with the sexuality that I was unfamiliar with.
So I asked we've covered that on this one before and I was like, what was the word I learned. Furry there.
It was that's that's a whole.
Live on this podcast because we were watching a video about it and they all know what it was and I didn't yeah. So I had to watch a video. I don't know how we aired that furries its own. Yeah, that doesn't get blocked from YouTube but.
Um, but so I was asking questions and it was do you remember that it was it was genuine curiosity. I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm ignorant on the topic. Let me ask you about it and that was Received as a like, oh, you're not validating me.
No nice force. Oh, you're not validating me in my experience all that jazz and I'm like, whoa, I Can't not validate your experience if I have no idea what the experience is. Let me ask questions first the same way that if we were sitting here and for whatever reason I couldn't wrap my head around the Idea that Jesus rose from the dead.
Sure. You would want me to ask questions so I could be like, oh, well.
Here's why I believe it. Yeah, you know, here's my and you explain how every time I see someone die. They say dead but your whole religions based on one guy coming out the grave. That's a fair question.
It is exactly.
I would want I would want somebody who is ignorant on the topic to ask so they can at least then be like well At least I know that I don't believe that.
Amanda we're about to have to go. If you could give one word to anyone watching this who maybe still is in Roman Catholicism, and they're like, okay What would be one thing you would tell them say like for example your thing wouldn't be Leave tomorrow and never go back and it.
If you could point them to one thing That you would want to tell them what would it be? I would say ask questions.
Yeah, it really is. It's it's like people get offended like you said so easily. But like you don't know anything if you don't ask and you need to know you need to know what you believe for yourself. Yes, like that's so important.
Don't just let people say this is what you believe because of this you need to know why you believe it.
What would you say? I would say stop trusting in the man. Don't you know don't I have so many friends and even me included. The reason why I left the church is and you'll just like. Why did you leave the church?
Oh because this person. Oh because this people. Because of this man. Oh, because you're talking about people here. Forget that. Come to God come to Jesus. They'll never lead you astray. A man will do it pretty much every single time.
Well, hey guys, we're about to be out of time that I was an excellent episode. I'm glad thank you Amanda. Thanks for having me Owen. Thank you pastor for coming on. I can't remember what we have next week.
But if you like what you heard if you didn't like what you heard Please put it in a comment so that we can know Where to go from here like share subscribe to all that the comments, you know. Anytime we get them I read them so that we can come up with ideas for future topics.
Or maybe you're like Hey, y 'all didn't do enough on that. Can y 'all come back and do a part two at the end of this season and talk about this. Or y 'all didn't really touch on This. Can y 'all can y 'all do that?
Can y 'all bring the Spencer guy? He's taller than Owen and Josiah and we'll be able to see him from the camera. You know, whatever it may be just put in a comment and let us know or email us the questions.
That listen point-taking podcast At gmail .com. That I do that right listen point-taking podcast at gmail .com. Let's clap it up for me for saying it, right?
It's like you've done this before. What are you doing. You're following the man.
So I Had a great time you guys until next time. Deuces, he just shows that he doesn't watch the podcast for doing it again. I did it till next time.
Deuces.