Answering Catholic Objections with Mike Gendron

Welcome to the program, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Justin Peters. I hope that you and your family are doing well today. I wanna thank you very much for joining us for this podcast. About a month or so, I interviewed Mike Gendron, and we talked about Roman Catholicism.

And I told folks that Mike, in a sense, Mike is to Roman Catholicism in a way, kind of what I am to Word of Faith. God saved Mike out of the Roman Catholic Church, that deception. And now Mike is an evangelist, and he is committed to preaching the gospel, and especially has a heart for Catholics.

And he wants to see God save other Catholics out of that deception, as he did for himself, for Mike. And so it was a joy. Now, in looking at some of the comments that were left on that video that we did, there were a number of them, and as you might expect, there were some Roman Catholics that found their way to the video, and they had some objections, they had some questions, they pushed back.

And so contacting Mike, I said, Mike, I think it would be a great idea for us to take some of those comments that we're seeing, and we'll read them, or at least summarize some of them. And Mike, I'll ask you to answer those objections.

And so Mike is joining me now. Mike, thank you very much, brother, for coming back onto the program. And yeah, I'm looking forward to this.

Likewise, I read a lot of the comments, and it really breaks my heart to see Roman Catholics who are really denying the authority of God's word. And that's really what it comes down to, Justin. In fact, when we're contrasting Roman Catholic teaching with biblical teachings, we really need to look to the authority.

And as we know, Roman Catholics have three different authorities, which is part of the problem. They not only have their sacred scripture, but they also have their sacred tradition, and also the infallible teachings of their bishops and their popes.

So when you look at how the Roman Catholic Church got off course and doesn't follow apostolic faith, you have to look to different authorities that they're following. Yes, indeed.

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Well, I look forward to this next hour, so we're gonna flesh out some of those very concepts and ideas. Some of the comments I'll read directly. Others were kind of lengthy, so I'll kind of summarize them.

But Mike, the first one is, and this is one I've heard a lot. I know you have as well. One of the common Roman Catholic objections to Protestantism in a general sense, they'll say the very fact that there are all of these hundreds of different denominations within the large umbrella of Protestantism.

I mean, you've got Methodists, you've got Presbyterians, Baptists, and all kinds of different shades of those. And on and on and on, and there are a lot of, they say the very fact that there's so many Protestant denominations is inherent proof that there is really only one true church, the Roman Catholic Church, that should be teaching people scripture.

So the very fact that Protestantism is so fractured and has so many different camps proves that the Roman Catholic Church is the only church. So what say you?

The True Church and Protestant Denominationalism

Well, there's two answers to that. Number one, the Roman Catholic Church is not united in a common teaching. There are Roman Catholic priests and bishops and even popes that stand opposed to one another.

I think this pope more than ever has denied historic Roman Catholicism, such that many of the cardinals and bishops in the church are actually against him, and they're actually looking for ways to do away with the pope so that they can get another pope in place that actually follows historic Roman Catholicism.

So there is no unity in doctrine and teaching in the Roman Catholic Church. Yes, they do have an official teaching, which is based on the catechism of the Catholic Church, but this pope, Pope Francis, goes against many of those historic teachings.

So that's part one. Part two is that, yes, there are many different evangelical and Protestant churches and denominations. And at the outset, I must say that the Roman Catholic Church is an apostate church in that it's departed from the faith of the apostles.

That being said, there are many Protestant churches that have also departed from the faith of the apostles, and they too are apostate. And so, yes, there are many different Protestant churches and denominations.

Many of our mainline Protestant denominations have drifted into apostasy, and they're no longer following the faith of the apostles. So, yes, we do have a number of Protestant denominations and churches, but there's only one true church, and that's made up of all those that have been baptized by the Spirit into one body, and that is found in 1 Corinthians 12, verse 13.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the one true church that's composed of all believers in the Lord Jesus. They have been born again of the Spirit of God. The true church has only one head, that is, the one shepherd and the founder, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Each member of Christ's church has his name written in heaven. Yes. Yes. We see that in Hebrews. Every member of the Church of Jesus Christ has their name written in heaven. Well, the Roman Catholic Church cannot say that because they say that a Roman Catholic who has been baptized and thus justified according to their teaching can commit a mortal sin, die in that state, and end up in hell.

So Roman Catholics do not have their names written in the Book of Life, and they're not assured of eternal life. And so when you look at the one true church of Jesus Christ, it is made up of people from every denomination, not to say that the Roman Catholic Church is a denomination.

It is an apostate form of Christianity. However, there are born-again Christians in the Catholic Church, and the Spirit of God will eventually move them out as they are discipled in truth. And that's why the great commission is to go and make disciples, teaching them to observe everything Christ has commanded.

And one of the things that we read in John chapter four, verse 24, is that God seeks worshipers in spirit and in truth. So as you're discipling a born-again Christian in the Catholic Church, and you show them that God seeks worshipers in spirit and truth, they must come out and worship God in the truth that upholds, in a church that upholds the truth of Jesus Christ according to his scripture.

Right, exactly right. Yeah, the Holy Spirit will deliver them out as they grow and progress in sanctification. It's interesting, and you can speak to this more well than can I, but Roman Catholics believe, you've mentioned the Pope and this Pope Francis, and I've kind of sometimes referred to him as the Joel Osteen of Roman Catholicism because he's so off the rails, even for Roman Catholic doctrine.

But how does that work? Because according to Roman Catholic teaching, when the cardinals get together, and it's their responsibility to choose a Christian and a new Pope, that is a process that Roman Catholicism teaches is guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit.

And once they make that decision, and the white smoke comes out, right, of the little chimney there in their building. So how is it that they've got, even by their standards of heretical Pope when this was supposedly guided by the Holy Spirit?

Another Spirit Behind the Papacy

Well, I think you just really made the statement that needs to be addressed, and that is they're not guided by the Holy Spirit, they're guided by another spirit. That shouldn't surprise us because the Apostle Paul warned us that someone come and preach another Jesus and another gospel and another spirit.

And so in the Roman Catholic Church, you see that they are teaching another Jesus that needs to be offered on an altar, even though he finished the work of redemption on a cross. And they have another gospel, which is made up of many additions to the pure gospel of grace.

And in doing so, they're led by another spirit, and that spirit is the God of this world. And so it's clear that if the Holy Spirit had moved the bishops and the cardinals to elect this particular Pope, then he would be a man of God, but clearly this is a pawn of the devil.

And I'm not saying that to be offensive to Roman Catholics. I mean, by the Pope's own statements, we know that he is not guided by the Holy Spirit. He's a universalist. He dares to say that everybody will be in heaven, including atheists, as long as they're sincere in their own belief.

And so just by using any standard of measure, whether it be the historic Roman Catholicism or the scriptures, we see that this Pope that is now the head of the Roman Catholic Church is an error in many different ways.

Yeah, absolutely.

Mike, what about men like Scott Hahn, who used to be Protestant? Was he Baptist? I can't even remember what, but he was Protestant. And then he went back to, or went into the Roman Catholic Church as someone who supposedly had studied the scriptures and then he became convinced that Roman Catholicism was the true church, the true religion after all.

And so, you know, this was not an uneducated man. I mean, he knew some stuff, knows some stuff, but he went into Roman Catholicism from Protestantism into this deception. So what do we do with men like that?

And out of curiosity, have you ever had any interaction with Scott Hahn?

Scott Hahn and the Danger of Experience-Based Theology

Yes, I have. He's got a very interesting history. He went to an evangelical seminary and upon graduation, he became a pastor of a small Presbyterian church. Presbyterian, okay. And after several years, he actually said that praying to Mary was the last obstacle that he had to deal with when he was contrasting Roman Catholicism with biblical Christianity, because he knew that biblical Christianity prays only to the Lord God.

So as he was trying to get through this obstacle of praying to Mary, he actually started praying to Mary and he asked for a miracle. And according to Scott's own words, that miracle actually took place.

And so he was convinced then that it was efficacious in praying to Mary. So he left the Presbyterian church and he became a Roman Catholic. And so when you go into Roman Catholic bookstores today, you will see many, many books and tapes by Scott Hahn because he's the poster boy.

He was actually had a meeting with the Pope and he's, I think an example of that all Protestants need to leave their churches and come home to Holy Mother, the church for the fullness of salvation. And yes, I have had interactions with Scott Hahn.

In fact, I exposed him for the apostate that he is. And I actually talked to him on the phone and I published an article about him in one of my newsletters. And I did it to warn evangelicals and Protestants that this man was indeed an apostate, that he did something so unbiblical as to pray to someone other than God.

And he says a miracle took place. And so he called me on the phone and he asked me why I would do that, why I would write an article on him calling him apostate. And I said, so that I could warn the sheep of our Lord Jesus Christ, not to have any dealings with you because you're a false teacher and apostate.

And I say that by the authority of God's word. And because in God's word, it says those who depart from the faith of the apostles, which is what Scott Hahn did, they're apostate. And so I was just calling him what the word of God referred to him as.

Yeah.

And that's a very poignant illustration example of why we cannot base our theology off of what we experience.

Absolutely. And you're so familiar with that in your ministry. Yeah. Feelings are subjective. So we can always go to the objective truth of God's word and test every spirit, test every man's teaching to find out if it's true.

Right, right.

All right, Mike, moving along here. I'll just read this one verbatim. Someone left this comment, said, sacraments originated on Christ's command, baptism, Eucharist, penance, and confirmation. Christ commanded his church to absolve mortal and venial sin when he said, if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven.

If you retain the sins of any, they are retained. John 20, 21. So what would you say to this person who says that the Roman Catholic sacraments find their origin in the clear teaching of Christ and especially dealing with what Jesus said here about sins, does that not reflect what we see in the Roman Catholic church getting absolved of sins when you go to confession, you go to a priest and this kind of thing?

Only God Can Forgive Sins

Yeah, there's two parts to that question. And the first one is there's no such thing as venial sins. The Roman Catholic church designates lesser sins as venial and they don't cause spiritual death. They only cause temporal punishment and purgatory.

And we know from the authority of God's word that all sins are mortal. Ezekiel 18, four says the soul that sins will surely die. Romans 6, 23 says the wages of sin is death. And so we know that all sins are mortal.

They all cause eternal life or eternal death in the fires of hell. If those who are committing mortal sins die unforgiven. So there are only one classification of sins, those are mortal sins. Now, the second part of the question is, can Roman Catholics in their priesthood actually forgive sin?

Well, we know very clearly from scripture. In fact, in Luke 5, verse 21, we know that only God can forgive sins. Now, what do we do with John 20, verse 21, the verse that you read? If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven.

If you retain the sins of any, they are retained. Well, by the authority of God's word, we can tell someone who has repented and believed the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, that their sins have been forgiven.

We do that through the authority of God and his word. Now, in the same token, if a person rejects the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and refuses to repent, we can say by the authority of scripture that your sins are retained.

And so it's not the person who is communicating with the sinner that is forgiving sins. They're simply communicating what the word of God teaches. God alone can forgive sins, but he tells us the only way they're to be forgiven.

And that is by repenting and believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ, that their sins were placed on Christ through faith. And he in turn gives his righteousness to those who put their faith in him. And so we do that through the authority of scripture and Roman Catholic priests have no authority to forgive sins.

And yet I can tell you that for 35 years, I would go and confess my sins to a priest and he would tell me before they can be forgiven, I must do penance. And that was usually in the form of repetitious prayers.

And I would leave the confessional booth and I'd go up to the altar rail and I would bow down and pray prayers to Mary and prayers to the Trinity. And at the end of those prayers, the priest said that he had the power to absolve my sins and that they were no longer unforgiven, that they were now absolved.

And so we know from scripture that that is not true. And so we must warn every Roman Catholic that might be listening to this, that the only way to confess your sins is to confess them directly to God.

We see that in Acts chapter eight, when the apostle Peter confronted Simon the Sorcerer for trying to buy the gift of God with his money, Peter said, go directly to God and ask forgiveness and perhaps God will forgive you.

And so here we have a classic example given to us in Acts chapter eight.

Right, indeed, indeed. Okay, let's talk a little bit about baptismal regeneration. Roman Catholics have a very different view than do we as Protestants regarding baptism. As Protestants, you and I believe that baptism is an act of obedience after regeneration has taken place, after conversion, after we have been baptized into the body of Christ through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

But Roman Catholics don't believe that. They believe in baptismal regeneration. And this individual says that baptismal regeneration was taught, accepted, pretty much universally accepted before the fourth century.

In other words, before the beginning of the Roman Catholic Church and it was taught by the early church fathers. So what would you say to that?

Baptismal Regeneration and the New Birth

Yes, the early church fathers is something that every evangelical needs to be aware of. And what I usually share with Roman Catholics is why would you build your theology on the uninspired words of the early church fathers when you can go directly to the inspired word of God, the scriptures.

And so it really doesn't matter what century some of the churches in the fourth century were practicing baptismal regeneration. What really matters is what took place in the first century because in Jude chapter three, we are to contend earnestly for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints.

And so anything that comes after the first century that goes against the faith of the apostles needs to be rejected. And so if you study Roman Catholic Church history, you will see that they began drifting into apostasy around the fourth century.

Some churches started practicing unbiblical methods of regeneration, such as water baptism. But it's clearly stated throughout scripture that the only way a person can be regenerated is through the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.

John chapter three, I think, is a great example of that. John described the work of the spirit as that being the work of the wind or how a wind blows. You never know where it's coming or where it's going to.

So is the work of the spirit. It is the spirit of God that brings forth life to those who are dead in their sins. And that's when Jesus spoke of you must be born again in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Later on in Peter's epistle, it says that we are born again through the imperishable seed of God's word. And so we see that spiritual life needs two elements in order to occur. You need the word of God and you need the spirit of God.

And those two things together bring forth life to those who repent and believe the gospel. Just as there are two elements necessary in physical life, you need the sperm and the egg in order to produce physical life.

So it is in spiritual life. You need both the word of God and the spirit of God. And so baptismal regeneration through water is not only unbiblical, but it goes against the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah. Okay.

All right. Very helpful. Very helpful. And while I'm thinking about it, there's a book, I don't know if you've read it, entitled Long Before Luther by Dr. Nathan Busenitz. Yes. Excellent book. Yeah. And that clears up, that also engages some of the Roman Catholic arguments.

Oh, well, you know, this whole idea of salvation by grace alone through faith alone, that was not taught. Nobody ever heard that until Martin Luther and Dr. Nathan Busenitz in his book documents that that's not the case.

That is not true. Salvation by grace through faith, justification by grace and faith, that was accepted well before Martin Luther came around.

And if I could just add to what Roman Catholics teach about baptismal regeneration, they teach that a seven day old infant, when the priest sprinkles water over the infant's head, that sacrament is not only the sacrament of regeneration such that the child becomes a child of God, but it's also the sacrament of justification.

And so here again, we see the Roman Catholic church going against the word of God, because clearly justification is by faith and a baby has no capacity to believe anything. So they're wrong in two parts.

Water baptism does not produce the new birth and it doesn't produce justification.

Yes, indeed. Okay. All right. And I'm gonna summarize this one, Mike. And I think what I'm gonna do is break this down to a few different parts and I'm gonna frame it in such a way that, okay, Protestants say this about Roman Catholics and Roman Catholics say, no, we don't believe that.

And yet we maintain that they do. And so I'm gonna get you to flesh these out for us a little bit. As Protestants, we would say one of our chief arguments against Roman Catholicism, Roman Catholics believe that they are saved by works.

We assert that Roman Catholicism teaches a work salvation. Roman Catholics say, oh, no, we don't. We don't teach that.

What say you? Yeah, this really is a divide line between Protestant evangelicalism and Roman Catholicism. Because when you look at the doctrine of justification, first, I think it's important that we talk about what justification actually is.

It declares the inflexible righteousness of God as the judge who must punish every sin that has ever been committed by every man and woman that's ever lived. And the only way a condemned sinner can be justified is through faith in the sin-bearing, substitutionary atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is what justification is. Jesus Christ satisfied divine justice for all those who would put their faith in him. Now, justification, according to the Bible, changes a person's legal status before God.

But the Roman Catholic Church says, no, it does not change a person's legal status. It actually conforms them to the inner righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. And so it's the change in the inner man that's not a change in the legal status.

In the Bible, we see that justification is instantaneous. You have this picture of a gavel coming down from heaven. And at that very moment, the judge in heaven declares the repentant sinner justified.

And Roman Catholicism says, no, it's not instantaneous. It is a process. And then the Bible teaches that justification is by faith. Faith in what Christ has accomplished. But Rome says, no, it's through water baptism.

And then we go a little bit further and we see that, according to the Bible, justification is permanent and it's never lost by sin. The legal status of a justified man is as unchangeable as the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

And we know that can never change. And the reason it's unchangeable is because the believer has been imputed or credited with the righteousness of Christ. By one offering has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified, Hebrews 10, 14.

But Rome, the Catholic Church teaches justification is temporal. It can be lost by sin and regained through sacraments, penance, and good works. And so according to the Council of Trent, which was the counter-reformation, after the reformation, the bishops of the Catholic Church got together and they actually issued an anathema.

If anyone says that you are justified by faith alone, you are anathema. And so the reason being is the Catholic Church teaches, and still to this day, that you're justified by faith plus works. And so clearly, according to the Council of Trent, the Roman Catholic Church teaches salvation by works.

Now, I think it's important to talk about works in the Christian life. If we come to the cross with empty hands of faith, the only thing we bring to the cross is our sin. Once we are saved by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, then Ephesians 2 .10 tells us we do the works that God has prepared for us to walk in.

Yes, our motivation is not to gain eternal life. We already have it. It's been received as a gift. But the Roman Catholic Church teaches just the opposite. The motivation for good works is to obtain justification.

You have to do good works in order to be re-justified. And so you can see this great divide between the true church of Jesus Christ who preaches justification by faith alone and Christ alone, by his grace alone, and the Roman Catholic Church who teaches justification must be by works.

And so I think it's also important to note that justification is permanent. We're a Christian, when you have been justified, you're justified forever, right? The Roman Catholicism, if you commit a mortal sin, you're de-justified.

You're now destined for hell again. And the only way to be re-justified is to do good works, receive the sacraments, and then work your way back to heaven through merit. And so this is the most important part.

Martin Luther said, justification is the very hinge upon which the gates of heaven open and close. If you get justification wrong, you get the gospel wrong. And the Roman Catholic Church has a different view of justification than at least your false and fatal gospel.

Yeah.

It's like what we were talking about in our first interview. They use some of the same terminology, but they have very different definitions, very different definitions of grace, of justification, of faith.

So, and Mike, those anathemas that were adopted at the Council of Trent that concluded, started 1545, concluded in 1563. Those anathemas remain to this day official Roman Catholic doctrine, correct?

The Council of Trent and the Immutability of Catholic Dogma

Yes, they do. In fact, when a group of bishops get together at a council and they speak with one unified voice, that voice is said to be infallible. And so if you were to change one anathema, then you would be destroying the whole Roman Catholic system because they're all based on infallible teachings.

And so their teachings aren't cement forever. They can never change. And so oftentimes I'll talk to Roman Catholics and they'll say, oh, we don't believe in purgatory anymore. Well, yes, you do. It's an infallible dogma pronounced and it never changed.

And they may not overtly talk about it, but anytime you go to a Catholic mass, you will pick up the bulletin and you will see the masses being offered to get these particular souls out of purgatory. And they'll list the names of those who are still in purgatory.

So they still teach it. It's an infallible dogma. Yeah, right. All right, so next,.

And this was a comment that I made in our first interview as well. I said that, to paraphrase myself, really all you need to know about the Roman Catholic Church in a sense is that its entire history is one of it doing its dead level best to keep the word of God out of the hands of everyday people.

And there was some pushback against that. As Protestants, we say Roman Catholicism doesn't encourage you to read the Bible for yourself. In fact, their history is, they've wanted to keep the Bible away from you.

And Catholics say, no, no, no, that's not true. What say you?

Keeping Scripture from the Laity

Well, there was two councils that prohibited the use of the Bible. And the first one was in the 13th century. And then we also see that the Council of Trent, that the Council of Trent prohibited people from having the Bible in their own possession.

They went so far as to tell a Catholic, if you had a Bible in your possession, you could not have your sins forgiven until you returned the Bible to the Catholic Church. Now, why would a church that lifts up the name of Christ forbid the word of Christ being in the hands of the people?

Well, the simple answer to that is the truth was set in Catholics free. Right, right. You may remember the words of the Apostle Paul in 2 Timothy 2, 24, that we are to pray for those in opposition to the gospel, that God would grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth so they can escape the snare of the devil that holds them captive to do his will.

And so the only way anyone can be released from Satan's grasp and captivity is by the truth of God's word. And we see the Lord Jesus saying that in John 8, verses 31 to 32, if you're a true disciple of mine, you will abide in my word, then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free, free from religious deception, free from the bondage of false religion, free from the power of sin.

So the Catholic church recognized that those who had the Bible were reading it and they were being set free from the Roman Catholic system. And so they wanted to take away the truth from the people so that they could maintain control over their people and all of their religious indoctrination.

Yeah, indeed, indeed. You know, Mike, eight or nine years ago now, maybe close to 10 years ago, I was preaching in Ecuador and the man I was with, a man named Will Pounds, took me one day up for a drive up into the mountains in Ecuador.

And he wanted to show me this village. And when we got there, he warned me, he said, Justin, this is old school Roman Catholicism. He said, then there was a market up there he wanted me to see. But he said, if you were to get out right now, get out of the car and start sharing the gospel here in this village, he said, they would stone you.

And he said, I don't mean that metaphorically. He said, they would literally stone you if you started to share the gospel in this village. And had I been single and not married, I might've been tempted to do it, but I was married.

But it was stunning to me that even to this day, there are Roman Catholics out there, not all of them, but that there are Roman Catholics to this day that are willing to put you to death for preaching the gospel.

Well, we look at the history of the Roman Catholic church, they have a history of putting people to death that preach the gospel faithfully and clearly. And anyone can pick up Fox's Book of Martyrs and they can say, you know, the Roman Catholic church has always been an enemy of the gospel.

And it even goes back 2000 years. I mean, who are the enemies of our Lord Jesus Christ? It was the apostate Jewish leaders. And so religion has always been an enemy of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Okay, Mike, next one. We as Protestants say to Catholics, Catholics, you put tradition over scripture or you elevate tradition at least to the same authoritative level as scripture. If not over scripture, Catholics say, no, we don't.

Take it away. Sure, well, the catechism of the Catholic church clearly states that Roman Catholics have three authorities. And they dare to say that all three are equal. And the three authorities would be the word of God, which is the Bible along with sacred tradition and then the infallible teachings of the Pope.

Now they say they're all equal, but in actual practice, it is the magisterium of the church, which is made up of all the bishops of the church. They actually sit above scripture and tradition. And the Catholic church will deny this, but it's the bishops who actually twist and distort scripture so that it conforms to the ungodly traditions in the Roman Catholic religion.

And so the apostle Peter, probably not knowing what lay ahead, he said that those who pervert the word of God, they do it to their own destruction. And that's what Catholic bishops do. They distort the word of God so that it tries to harmonize with the traditions of the Catholic church.

And so in actual practice, you've got the magisterium sitting above scripture and tradition, twisting and distorting the scripture so it conforms with their tradition. Yeah, yeah.

All right. Mike, why does the Roman Catholic church not allow priests to be married? You've already read 1 Timothy 4 .1. Some will fall away from the faith and pay heed to deceitful spirits, doctrines of demons.

Why does the Roman Catholic church not allow priests to be married when scripture says that one of those doctrines of demons is forbidding marriage? What's going on there?

Forbidding Marriage and the Priesthood

Well, follow the money. If you look at church history, the priests were becoming very wealthy. And so when they would die, the wealth that they obtained would go to their wife. And so the Catholic church put an end to that and they actually forbid priests to marry.

And so it is a doctrine of the devil, as we saw in 1 Timothy 4 .1. And so that is ultimately, again, if you study the history of the Catholic church, you will see that this huge amount of wealth had come into the Catholic church.

And a lot of it had to do with selling God's forgiveness through indulgences. And so many of the priests and bishops and cardinals became very wealthy. We know that a lot of the money went to build the Basilica at St. Peter's.

And so the church put an end to that now. And my uncle was a Roman Catholic priest. And so I know firsthand, even though my uncle didn't have a lot of money, he spent 30 years in the jungles of Burma converting the Burmese to Roman Catholicism.

But he did acknowledge that they were forbidden to marry. And he wouldn't admit that that was the reason. But again, all you can do is look at church history and see.

Yeah, yeah. And Mike, this may be one of the more controversial things that we'll talk about, but I wanna get your take on this. A few years ago, there was big headlines when all of the sexual abuse scandal, you know, priests, a lot of priests, a lot of bishops, a lot of people even in some of the upper echelons of the Roman Catholic church discovered had been abusing children for decades.

I mean, thousands of cases. In fact, anecdotally, my wife, Kathy, she was raised as a Roman Catholic and she went to a Roman Catholic school and she said, everybody knew what the priests were doing. She said, it was like this open secret.

And she said, one of the priests that was around her when she was growing up is that, and this is not a joke. It's gonna sound like this is a made up name. It really was his name. His name was Father Heretic.

Wow. Go figure. I mean, that was his name, Father Heretic. But anyway, he would, she said he would take little girls and hold them, grab them by their legs and hold them up so that their dress would fall down and hold them up off the ground and just look at these little girls.

And she said stuff like that went on all the time. It's my opinion, educated opinion, I think, that, okay, so Roman Catholic, the forbidding of marriage, they forbid their priests to be married. So I would say that the Roman Catholic Church in a sense has become a factory for homosexuals and or pedophiles because up until six years ago, 2015, homosexuals could not legally marry in the United States.

So you've got all these homosexual men out there, some of whom raised Catholic, and they know that legally, again, up until 2015, they know legally they can't get married. And so, hey, grew up in a Roman Catholic Church.