December 8, 2017 Show with Doug Geivett & Holly Pivec on “A New Apostolic Reformation? A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arns.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arns and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this eighth day

of December 2017.

I'm delighted to have not only a returning guest who has not been on

in seven years, but also a first -time guest today, and we are going to

be discussing a very important topic that a lot of people in our audience may be unaware of.

We are going to be discussing a new apostolic reformation, a biblical response to a worldwide

movement, and we have to discuss this returning guest, R. Douglas

Guyvet, who is a professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology at Biola

University, and he is the author of Evil and the Evidence for God and co

-editor of four books, Contemporary Perspectives on Religious Epistemology in Defense of Miracles,

Faith, Film, and Philosophy, and Being Good, Christian Virtues for Everyday Life.

We also have joining us for the very first time ever Holly Pivick, and she holds a master's

degree in Christian apologetics from Biola University in Southern California.

She is an experienced journalist and researcher, having served as a newspaper reporter, and

she is a contributing writer to the Christian Research Journal and as the university editor

at Biola University for nearly 10 years, as well as the managing editor of the award -winning

Biola Magazine.

She has more than 200 published articles, many related to the new apostolic reformation,

church trends, and theological issues.

She currently operates a popular blog that critiques the new apostolic

reformation called Spirit of Error, which you can find at spiritoferror

.org, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both to Iron

Trump and Zion Radio, Doug Givitt and Holly Pivick.

Thank you so much for having us on.

Thanks for having us on, Chris.

It's great to have you on, and let me right away give our listeners our email address if you have any questions you'd like to

ask Doug Givitt and Holly Pivick.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if this is about a personal or private matter over which you are asking.

Perhaps you are involved in the new apostolic reformation.

You don't want anybody to know that you are asking questions about it or criticizing it or

whatever the case may be that would compel you to remain anonymous.

If it's about a personal and private matter, we will respect your wishes, but please if it's not about a private matter,

give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Well, Doug, it's been seven years since you've been on the program.

I would like you to start and also then Holly to follow up right behind you.

I'd like you to give an abbreviated version of your testimony of salvation.

I'd like to know what kind of a religious atmosphere or upbringing that you were raised

in, if any, and what circumstances and providential

events that the Lord used to draw you to himself and also to save you.

Well, Chris, that's a great question.

I don't think I've ever.

Been asked that on the front end of an interview about a completely different topic, so I

want to thank you for thinking of that and being sensitive to that.

My pleasure.

I was born in Southern California into a Christian home.

Very active family of believers who participated in

their church and the church that I attended with them, which was a Baptist church until

I was about 11 years old.

And then at that time, I moved with my family to Mexico where

my father was a missionary pilot for six years.

And then I came back towards the end of my high school years there to Redondo Beach,

lived there for a year, and then went to Bible college in Portland, Oregon.

And when I applied to attend that school, I had to give

the same sort of testimony that you've asked for.

And I asked my mother if she could remember the date of my conversion when I had prayed with her

as a child.

And she said, well, you were about four years old.

And I said, well, you're kidding me.

Maybe I better do this again.

She came to the

conclusion that though you're saved once and forever

secure, you can only be assured of your salvation if you're trusting

Jesus Christ and you know you are at a given time.

And so I didn't have any doubt about that, and I don't today either.

So who are you trusting?

What are you trusting for your salvation to rescue yourself?

I don't know what more you'd like to hear from me about

specific events in my life, but feel free to follow up.

Well, I guess that would be fine for now,.

And we can have Holly give her abbreviated testimony of what kind of upbringing she had.

And how the Lord drew her to herself and saved her.

I grew up in a small town in California called Lake Isabella.

It's in the high desert, and I was raised in a Christian home by Christian parents.

I remember praying with my father when I was about five years old, you know, the

sinner's prayer.

And as I got older around junior high, I really started wondering

if I just believed in, you know, the tenets of Christianity because I had been raised in a

Christian home, and I had friends who were Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons

and different religious backgrounds, and I started wondering, you know, maybe I just believe this way

because I was raised this way.

And that really started to bother me, and I started to ask my dad questions about that, and he gave me

some Josh McDowell books.

At that time, I discovered apologetics, and I often joke that apologetics

saved me.

God saved me, of course, but apologetics really gave me what I needed to

see that the Christian faith is objectively true.

And, you know, I believe it because there are good reasons to believe it, not just because I was

raised that way or wishful thinking.

And so that set me on a path of apologetics, and it is why I eventually ended up,

you know, earning my master's degree in apologetics, but by

apologetics still today.

Well, praise God, so do I.

Not that I am personally involved in being an apologist myself, but I have

arranged probably nearly 50 debates over the

years, many of them with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and also

my friend Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, and I love apologetics,

and I love organizing debates and viewing debates, and it's in my

blood, and it's one of the reasons I'm doing this program as well.

By the way, do either or both of you know my friend Thaddeus Williams, who is a

former teacher of literature at Saddleback College, but he is assistant

professor of theology at Biola University.

Chris, he is on the same floor, in the same hallway.

Oh, great.

And I also have a friend, this would have been before your time, but I also have a friend, a very dear friend, who is a primary

sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Ron Glass, who was at one time

on the faculty at Talbot School of Theology, but that was probably in the 80s,

if I'm not mistaken, so I'm sure that was before your time there.

Well, the issue at hand that we are discussing today is a new

apostolic reformation and a response to a worldwide movement.

If you two could both let me know and let our audience know

how you first became aware of this movement, and who founded it,

how long it's been around,.

And what is it really standing for?

That's okay.

When I was working at Biola University as the managing editor of their magazine,

I received a communication, an email, from a reader who was trying to

alert faculty at the University of the existence of this movement and see if there

was anyone at the faculty there who could write a response to this movement.

She was very concerned.

She lived in Colorado Springs, and she saw the churches, as she said, were being taken

over by this movement, by the new apostolic reformation teachings, and so

she contacted the university looking for some kind of response, for help with some kind of response to this movement,

and at the time it piqued my attention because I enjoyed researching

cults and aberrant groups, and I had my interest in apologetics, and so I started

doing a little digging around on the internet, and I was shocked that I had never heard of

this movement before, but it was obviously very large, very influential, and obviously

many other people had heard of this movement.

It was outside of my

experience, but after that time, after I learned of this movement, I started seeing signs of it

everywhere, and even realized that I had friends who were involved in church's

reformation teachings, and so that's when I became very concerned

about this movement, and that's when I became aware of it.

Doug might have something to add to that.

Yeah, Doug?

Yeah, I became aware of it sometime later after Holly had already done

quite a bit of her research and some writing on the topic, and we had reconnected

about some other issues and other projects, and she told me about this book

that she had wanted to write.

She had the semblance of a manuscript already done, but she wanted me to have a look, and I

guess she was secretly harboring some hope.

I said, well, I'd like to see the manuscript.

I read what she had written, and like her, I was very surprised that on the one

hand, I had not heard of the movement or knew very much about it, and on the other hand,

it was already obviously in a very advanced stage of development, and as I

read and then checked up on some of the references, I really became convinced that this

was a serious problem, a serious challenge to the Church, and it had a dimension

that concerns apologetics, the defense of the Christian faith, an area where I do

a lot of research and writing and teaching.

So as Holly and I spoke and talked more about this, I became persuaded

that this was really worthy of my own effort as well, even though it's

slightly off topic from many of the things I've done before, but

that's how I learned of the movement through.

Holly herself.

Yeah, I first learned of the movement, and I am still very ignorant of the movement, ignorant about a lot of things, but

ignorant about the movement, but I first started hearing about it several months ago

when people in the Iron Trip and Zion Radio audience were submitting questions to my guests

on a various assortment of topics, and they were asking about

the N .A .R., and I was baffled.

What were they talking about, the N .A .R.?

And then I had guests say, oh, you're talking about the New Apostolic Reformation, and I'm like, what's that?

So I've heard bits and pieces, but I've never done a full -length, thorough

interview on it, so tell us about who are the founders of

this movement and what theological background do they originally come out of that you

know of, and of course then after we hear that, we're gonna need to hear some of the major tenets

of this group that would sound off alarm bells in your minds

to view this as something that was spiritually and theologically and doctrinally dangerous.

So one of the most recognized

leaders in this movement is C. Peter Wagner.

He died in 2016, but he was at Fuller Theological Seminary for about 30

years, teaching church growth there, and he ended up writing

six books on the topic of apostles and arguing that the

office of apostle is for today and needed to be restored to the church.

And so he really formulated much, he did a lot of the heavy lifting

for the movement theologically.

Was he, just out of curiosity, because I know that Fuller is known for liberalism, I'm not saying that

everyone at Fuller on the faculty or in the student body is liberal, but it's known for that.

In fact, my friend Dr. James R. White, who I mentioned, although he is a very conservative,

theologically reformed apologist, he is a graduate of Fuller.

But was Wagner a liberal, at least to start with?

So my understanding is that Wagner, some of the things he was getting into while he was teaching at

Fuller were controversial at Fuller.

It was the idea of there being present -day offices of apostle and prophet.

This was during a controversy there, so that's my understanding.

On that.

Okay, and so I'm assuming he eventually got some people who were

like -minded, and where did they come from, and who are these figures that are likely

still with the movement, I'm assuming,.

In leadership?

Right, he worked closely with other leaders in this movement, like Sinead Jacobs is a

really well -known prophet in this movement, Chuck Pierce is a well -known prophet, and

so I would not call him the founder of this movement.

What he did was he saw that, basically, starting in the 1980s,

many churches started embracing the idea that the office of prophet is for today,

and in the 90s, many churches started becoming open to the idea that the office of

apostle is for today, and so Peter Wagner observed this and

put a label on it.

He came up with the name New Apostolic Reformation, and really became a leading

proponent of this movement, but he was describing what he saw

happening, and he would say in 2001, that marked the beginning of what he calls the Second Apostolic

Age, and that would be when fairly significant number of churches started

embracing the idea of both prophets and apostles.

Being for today.

And I'm assuming what he meant by that is that the modern -day apostles, and of

course, correct me if I'm wrong, that the modern -day apostles had the same gifts as

the apostles of the of the New Testament canon, that they

were performing miracles, or should I say are performing miracles, and

that they are receiving new revelation, extra -biblical revelation from.

God.

Am I correct on those things?

Yes, receiving new revelation and giving it to the church is is the key

function of an apostle and a prophet in the NAR, and they believe that's

why those two offices must be restored, because without those two offices, the church hasn't been receiving

any new revelation just from the pastors, and so these offices must be restored

so that the church can take these new revelations that will enable them

to develop supernatural powers, and with their supernatural powers actually bring heaven to earth.

And they would say that, you know, they would compare these apostles and prophets to the Christ's original

apostles and the Old Testament prophets.

The one distinction they will make is that they will say apostles are not

supposed to write new scripture, but the revelations they give, they're often

presented as these revelations must be received by all Christians, they're binding on all

Christians.

Christians who don't receive these revelations will be outside of God's will, outside of His plans and

purposes for the world, outside of His blessing, and so in effect their revelations

are treated with an authority of scripture, it would seem, even though they

would say that they can't, you know, physically add their words to a bible.

Now, right now, so far, what you have.

Described is not all that, what's the word I'm looking

for, it's not all that strange or it seems completely

ordinary within charismatic and Pentecostal circles, and of course most

charismatics and Pentecostals do not believe in modern -day apostles, but there is

a segment of them that do, there's apostolic denominations, some

of them are non -Trinitarian, I have come to learn, but so other

than what would be not all that shocking to mainstream charismatics and Pentecostals,

what is unique about this group?

Is there anything that they deviate from what would otherwise be

biblically orthodox doctrine, for instance, do they believe in the Trinity, do they believe in the deity of

Christ and His virgin birth and His sinless life and His atoning death and His

physical bodily resurrection and His future return and that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ

alone, and these kinds of pillar doctrines, do they deviate from any of that and, you

know, further explain how they would be something new and not just another flavor

of what we have already experienced in the charismatic.

Movement?

Right, well the key teaching of NAR that separates NAR from other Protestant

Christians including Pentecostals and charismatics is the teaching that there

are governing offices of apostle and prophet today and that these offices must govern the

church, and so historically Protestants would say, you know, elders, pastors,

these are the offices that are supposed to be governing the church today, you know,

according to scripture, but in the NAR they would say, no, apostles and prophets

are offices that are supposed to govern the church and that really pastors are supposed

to submit to the apostles and prophets, and so it's the office

as opposed to the gift.

Historically Pentecostals and charismatics would believe in the miraculous gift of, say,

prophesying or that there's a gift of apostle even, which might be like a really effective

missionary or church planner, but the idea that the church is to be governed by

apostles and prophets, that's what sets the NAR apart from all other groups.

Now do they fall in line with,.

Go ahead, I'm sorry Doug.

Oh Chris, if I may, I just wanted to insert briefly one other point.

It's actually implied by what Holly was just saying, and that is that they presume to have

a degree of authority that is comparable to the authority of Christ's apostles and of the Old

Testament prophets, and that's something that would distinguish them as well.

So they're able to give leadership to the church that I

believe is heavy -handed and authoritarian, and in many cases it

includes a networking of apostles with a kind of hierarchical structure.

Now Holly can correct me if I'm, you know, misrepresenting anything here, but that's got to be

stressed, is that they presume to have this level of authority,

and that is something too that would distinguish them from the tradition of

Pentecost even recently.

And right, and just adding to what Doug said, so their words, the words of the apostles and prophets are

expected to be heeded and obeyed, and that's different, you know.

Historically in a prophetic word to another individual or

to a church, but the words of the apostles and prophets are seen as much more authoritative, and

they are allowed to give directive prophetic words to individuals about

where to live, who they should marry, where they should work.

So Doug is correct in the degree of authority that is attached

to these offices.

And going back to.

Go ahead Doug, I'm sorry.

I was just going to say maybe something could be said here, too, about the nature of the prophecies

themselves, what sorts of things are being

told about

the future than at a national or global level.

And that's not, that's rare in the Pentecost

context.

Now I would make one other point about this, because Chris, you've detected

a point of contact between historic

charismatic movement on the one hand, and this new apostolic reformation on

the other.

They're not equivalent.

However, people can become very confused about the differences,

and it's easy for the NAR to make inroads into the

Pentecostal church and among charismatics, because it can sound like they're saying the same thing.

And I think that this is a deliberate effort, but it

makes sympathetic with the gifts of,

it makes them vulnerable to the kinds of teachings that you encounter with the

new apostolic reformation, even though they're not part of the historic

tradition.

So before we go into some of the things that would be.

Vital differences from the ordinary Pentecostal or

charismatic denomination or church, going back to what I was asking

earlier, from what you know, do they hold to what would be considered a

historically Protestant gospel?

Do they believe in the salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone?

And do they believe in the Trinity?

And one important thing is, are they using the same vocabulary, but a different dictionary?

Because many cults, as you know, will seem like they're

using the same language as we are, as evangelical Christians.

In fact, many of them are using the same language, but what we don't know when we hear them is that they are

defining terms differently.

So I was just curious, from what you understand about this group, do they believe in the cardinal

teachings of the gospel and also of the Trinity and the.

Person and work of Christ, etc.?

From what I've seen, the majority of NAR churches do hold

to those cardinal doctrines.

The one exception is leaders in the NAR, like Peter Wagner, will

say that there's not as much, they don't put as much importance on

all people in the movement holding to the doctrine of the Trinity, and that may be to allow one of those Pentecostals

to take part, but that's one doctrine that, according to Peter Wagner, is not

seen as, although most people in the NAR would say they hold to that doctrine, it's not

seen as essential.

I think the big concern in this movement is the teachings they're

adding to it, and also that these cardinal doctrines

are really not stressed very much.

They're being overshadowed.

The gospel is being overshadowed by the teachings that Christians are also supposed to

develop these supernatural powers and be learning to prophesy and raise the dead,

so that they can become this miracle working army that will bring God's kingdom to earth.

And so that really becomes the emphasis.

And the focus.

We're going to be going to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We will be right back after these messages with Doug Guyvet and Holly Privick, and

so we look forward to hearing from you and your questions.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Tired of box store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience,

featuring the systematic exposition of God's word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512.

Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers.

The NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known for.

The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary topics

relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible

.com.

Whichever edition you choose, trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Hi,

I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley

Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them

affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books

and Bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what

is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and

otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is cvbbs .com.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work

in service to you, the Church, and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.

That's cvbbs .com.

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And you can also call cvbbs .com at their

toll -free number 800 -656 -0231.

800 -656 -0231.

They are typically manning the phones between 10 a .m. and 4 30 p .m. so try to call during those hours

and if you don't get an answer call the next day.

They are offering 10 % on everything in the store.

All merchandise is discounted 10 and even things that are already on sale

have an additional 10 discount on them.

If you purchase a minimum of $50 worth of merchandise you will get absolutely free

of charge a Proverbs Driven Life by Anthony Silvaggio, a

publication of Shepherd Press that is a $14 retail value.

You'll be getting that absolutely free of charge.

Please when you're placing an order after you actually place the order there will be an option

to click on for instructions.

Use that to tell them at cvbbs that you heard about them from Chris Arnsen on Iron

Sharpen's Iron Radio.

They have had a radical reversal in their sales lately for

the better and they are telling us that only a tiny portion of you

are mentioning Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio and I have a feeling it's just because many of you are just not

knowing how to do it or you just forget to do that.

But keep in mind that these sales have started to raise radically

for them just as we began a really strong ad campaign for them so it seems like

it's too much of a coincidence not to be coming from Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

So please let them and all of our advertisers whenever you contact any of our advertisers please make

sure you tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnsen at Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio because if you want Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio

to remain on the air our advertisers need to know that our listeners are

patronizing them.

So go to cvbbs .com and as I said $50 or

more will get you the free book A Proverbs Driven Life retailing for $14

by Anthony Silvaggio, a publication of Shepherd Press.

We are back now with our guests Doug Guyvet and Holly Pivick.

We are discussing their book A New Apostolic Reformation, A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement

and do these folks in this New Apostolic Reformation claim

that they all are already performing apostolic miracles like

raising the dead or is this just an envisioned future that they hope for are they claiming they are already doing that?

Oh I'm sorry I had you I had you on mute accidentally I'm sorry.

Oh no that's okay.

I just said yes definitely.

Some of them are.

In fact there was a real popular revival NAR revival in Lakeland Florida

in 2008.

Todd Bentley was the leader of that revival and he claimed that

over 25 people were raised from the dead.

Right on the stage there.

Right on the stage?

Yeah all types of miracles are being claimed.

So in other words they are.

Having people who are acting like they're corpses and coming to life

after they are.

Not yeah.

I'm not totally sure what's going on there but definitely those claims are being made

and the claims are often being made in faraway places that might be hard to

document or verify.

Yeah that's been going on for decades it's always in the jungles of Africa or something that the people are being raised from the dead and

mainstream Pentecostalism but I'm sorry I.

Interrupted you.

Bethel Church oh no I just say Bethel Church in Reading California.

They claim the daily all kinds of miracles are happening over there through their church

and their supernatural school of ministry there and so these claims are quite common

and the miracles are seen as authenticating their claims to be apostles and prophets.

All right.

Let's take some of our.

Listener questions.

We have Joe in Slovenia who says.

Dear brother Chris thanks so much for addressing this topic.

It is very much needed in our day of widespread confusion in the church.

My question relates to the goals of the NAR.

Do those in this movement really believe that they are going to take over the seven mountains of

society?

Maybe Doug and Holly could explain what these are.

And do NAR proponents really believe that fulfilling the seven mountains

mandate is actually the correct way to go about hastening the Lord's return?

And he has a couple of other questions but I'll let you.

Address those first.

The seven mountain mandate is a key revelation that that many NAR or NAR apostles and prophets claim

to have received and one of those is Johnny Inlow he's one of the leading prophets

who talks about this revelation.

But the idea is that the way for the church to take dominion as in socio -political

control of the world is for it to take control of the seven major societal

institutions which they call mountains and those institutions are identified as government,

media, family, business, education, religion, and the arts.

And so what they teach is that apostles must cast out the high -ranking demons that they believe

presently control these institutions and they find scriptural support for this

revelation in Deuteronomy 7 -1 where Israel had to conquer seven nations before it could enter the

promised land and so they kind of receive prophetic illumination into that passage and say this is

what it's talking about and so the seven mountain mandate is very popular in the NAR and

many NAR organizations are actively pursuing this

revelation and the idea is once the apostles rise to the top of these

institutions those high -ranking demons can be cast out and then the church can take control of

say the media or the government and use that to bring God's kingdom to earth.

Let me make one more comment in relation to this.

I don't want it to be a distraction but you asked Holly about

this between the movement and on the

doctrinal level between the movement and Pentecostalism and the Charismatics.

She noted rightly that they add things that are not part of the tradition.

This would be an example.

They de -emphasize things that should be central to their mission and here is a very good

example where they try to fulfill the seven mountain mandate.

You will hear them talk about going out into other parts of the world with the express

purpose of identifying enclaves of demons who are

in the region.

You cut out there Doug.

Doug you cut out there after you said enclave of demons.

You went silent for about five seconds.

I'll take another stab at it.

Yeah so they'll travel internationally looking for

places where they believe there are extraordinary presences of

these demons who have special control society

and in that region.

And so rather than thinking of the mission of the church and of their own mission when they travel overseas for

example in terms of gospel proclamation and calling upon people to

come to faith in Jesus Christ this becomes a centerpiece of their

mission that is to fulfill the seven mountain mandate in the way that

and a part of Joe and Slovenia's question.

Is also is NAR doctrine simply the word of faith

heresy version 2 .0.

I'm not sure what he means by that because it expands that erroneous theology from the individual

level to corporate church and.

Denominational levels.

So the word is so in the NAR they believe that God has been progressively restoring truths that have been

lost to the church and so over the the last in 1906

with Azusa Street and the Pentecostal movement tongues was restored.

And then that goes through decade by decade God has been restoring truth that were lost to the church like the

prosperity the truth about the prosperity gospel the truth about word faith.

And so the idea that people through their words can create reality through their their

their words of faith can create a desired reality.

That is a key teaching in the NAR.

And they've adopted that teaching into their framework into their theological framework.

And so a big part of the NAR is making apostolic proclamations prophetic

proclamations or declarations whereby just with your very words you create

reality.

You can use your words to bring God's kingdom to earth or bring God's kingdom to specific situations like

someone's healing or finances.

And so the word of faith is is one of the key teachings that has been.

Incorporated into the NAR theological framework and I would say that this is reflected in the

way they pray as well and I've had people comment to me that when they hear

people in this movement pray it sounds like they're instructing God even

to perform miraculous acts.

Now they might say well no God has made promises and we're just I'm expressing our dependence on his

promises.

But there's a there's a tone in praying in some cases that is

in effect appealing to God to do something in very strong terms that they believe must

be done or they believe God would have done and it doesn't sound quite as

submissive as we would normally expect.

Biblical.

Do you have anything to add to that.

Holly.

That particular point.

Right.

Well and you know.

In the NAR they make a distinction between petitionary prayer which is the more traditional you know making

humble requests of God and allowing him to decide whether he he answers those requests or

not and what they were called a proclamation form of prayer where you uh

they would they would refer to um.

Job 22 28 it says you also declare a thing and it will be established for you the light will shine on your

ways.

And so in the NAR they would say that what God wants people in the church to do is move from just

petitionary prayer to a proclamatory prayer where you actually

use your words to um to you declare things and create reality

with your words.

There's a creative power to them.

And so and so there's they have a theology of prayer that's very different than the more

historic view of prayer.

Well thank you joe and slovenia and guess.

What you have won.

A free copy of a new apostolic reformation a biblical response to a worldwide movement.

Compliments of our friends at weaver book company.

And also compliments of our friends at cvbbs .com carmelin valley bible

book service.

So make sure we have the full mailing address.

I understand that your daughter lives in georgia which makes it a lot more affordable for cvbbs

.com to ship that out to you.

So please uh make sure that we have that full mailing address.

Uh we have uh.

Another listener who has a question for you.

Uh we have uh.

Kerry in.

I have to enlarge kerry's email because the font is microscopic and i

can't even read the city and state where she's writing from.

Uh in the meantime i'll give our email address again.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com if you have a question of your own.

Hi chris.

I'm so happy your guests are knowledgeable in the ways of the nar and by the way this is kerry in

manteca california.

I have a very good friend who is caught up in this.

Please ask your guests to comment on mike bickle and the international house of prayer and their

part in this heretical movement.

I hop and mike bickle etc are as involved as bethel redding is

also bethel redding's music.

Jesus culture is luring kids into these heresies.

So if you could comment on kerry and manteca california's questions.

Slash comments.

Yeah regarding mike you know his promotion of the the present day off governing offices of apostles

and prophets goes way back during the time of his um involvement with the kansas city prophets when he

pastored a church and uh back in the um 80s and 90s

he was a pastor there and there were a number of prophets who gathered around him in that church.

And really that's when the idea that the office of prophet was being restored to the church really started taking

off in recent times and um and many of those people that were kansas city prophets are now

leaders in the um in our movement like james gold and louis engel and so

so his his involvement with with these teachings goes way back.

Himself uh has claimed over the years that he has received revelation

directly from god from heaven from like he's he's gone to heaven and received revelation.

That um out of the ihop movement 35 most eminent

apostles will arise in the end time and that if he's faithful he would be one of those

um so that was that was some years back he he shared those revelations that he received

and and to this day um i hop still uh mike vickle will still say

he he believes that the offices of apostle and prophet um are for today

and um many of his teachings about the end time indicate that that he believes these uh

apostles and prophets in our apostles and prophets will play a key role in the end time.

He would probably not call them nar apostles and prophets but he believes they will will play a

key role in that.

And what's going on there at ihop.

The internet is preparing the church um to

to grow into miraculous powers and so eventually uh they will be able to call

down god's judgments on the antichrist kingdom um through their proclamations

like i was we were just talking about um with their words they with their prayers their proclamatory prayers they will

call down god's end time judgments on the antichrist kingdom and um and so he

believes that the judgments described in the book of revelation will actually be the result of

of followers of this ihop movement calling down these judgments of god.

And so so ihop has has been steeped in in all of these teachings uh ever since its inception.

Well one positive thing i can say about ihop is that their assortment of pancakes and syrups are

absolutely phenomenal.

Sorry about that.

I just couldn't i couldn't resist that.

Um well thank you.

Uh let's see.

I already uh forgot.

Who wrote that.

Oh kerry chris i don't think we spoke.

I'm sorry chris.

Yes i don't think.

We spoke to kerry's question about uh the music.

Oh yeah right.

Exactly.

Bethel redding's music.

Jesus culture.

I've been hearing a lot of negative things about jesus culture from todd freel of wretched radio

who has been exposing the heretical elements.

Of that but if you could comment yeah well i don't want to

say too much about this that um this

music is chiefly used as a recruiting tool and it raises

awareness of the existence of ministries like bethel church so

whereas it doesn't overtly advertise bethel church you can be hearing the music played and

be be led in in worship in church or in your youth group with this music and feel

tremendously edified.

You might not know where it springs from and even if you analyze the lyrics you might

not be especially concerned but young people and others in the church do know

the source of this music and it is a conduit to uh what

you might even call a pilgrimage to bethel church because everywhere you look you meet people who

hope one day to be able to visit that church or will come back and say they have and they want to go back and they want to study

in their in their institute.

And for many of them an entry point is through this music which is actually being

used all over the christian world across denominations uh not only in the

u .s but uh globally.

So a person has to ask and i'd say a youth pastor or a music minister in a church

do i want to run the risk of sort of encouraging our

people indirectly inadvertently to explore this uh this movement for

themselves and maybe be drawn in because we use the music.

Or would i rather poke around and find other things that are equally uh edifying

so that we don't take that chance and i've heard of people who were using the

music for those purposes learned about its relationship to a ministry like bethel and

have decided no longer will they do so thank you so much carrie in.

Manteca california for your excellent questions and comments and not only have you won a free

copy of the book we are addressing a new apostolic reformation a biblical response to

a worldwide movement.

Since you are a first -time questioner you also have received a brand new new american standard bible

so please make sure that we have your full mailing address in manteca california and we'll have cvbbs .com

ship those out to you as soon as possible.

We're going to our midway station break right now.

This is a longer break than normal because grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida

requires that we take a 12 -minute break between our two -hour segment.

So i hope you be patient.

I hope you will be patient with us as we go to these commercials and take this

time also to write some questions.

We also have a number of you already waiting to have your questions asked and answered and we'll get to as many of you as

time will allow.

But if you'd like to join them and get online our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back god willing with doug givett and holly pivick to discuss a new apostolic reformation

right after these messages from our sponsors

one sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day so i'm urging you all from now on to exclusively

use batterydepot .com for all your battery needs at batterydepot .com.

They're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script.

They're sticking it to the man.

In other words they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory

of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new dependable and affordable.

Ordering from batterydepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries you

can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones cell phones radios pcs

laptops tablets baby monitors hearing aids smoke detectors credit card

readers digital cameras electronic cigarettes gps's mp3 players

watches or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries.

Go to batterydepot .com next day shipping.

Available all products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month

warranties call 866 -403 -3768 that's

866 -403 -3768.

Or go to batterydepot .com.

That's batterydepot .com.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto.

Reading the man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com that's solid

-ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you

can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio.

Every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions

coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young

people who need jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following christ.

Long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in

need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer.

Donate pray or all of the above.

For details call long island youth for

christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333

or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

Linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook.

Long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and

together.

Hi.

I'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be.

Call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599

-9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

That's linbrookbaptist .org.

Iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by harvey cedars a year -round bible conference and retreat

center.

Nestled on the jersey shore harvey cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to

400.

For generations christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at harvey cedars.

Each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about god's word.

An additional 9 000 come annually to harvey cedars as families couples

singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries.

90 miles from new york city 70 miles from philly and 95 miles from

wilmington and easily accessible.

Scores of notable christian groups frequently plan conferences at harvey cedars like the

navigators intervarsity christian fellowship campus crusade and the alliance of

confessing evangelicals.

Find harvey cedars on facebook or at hc bible .org hc

bible .org.

Call 609 -494 -5689 609

-494 -5689.

Harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives.

Are you a christian looking to align your faith and finances then you'll want to check out thriving financial.

We're not your typical financial services provider.

We're a not -for -profit fortune organization that helps our nearly 2 .4 million members be wise

with money.

We provide guidance that reflects your values so you can protect what matters most.

We help members live generously and strengthen the communities where they live work and worship.

Learn more about the thriving story by contacting me mike gallagher financial

consultant at 717 -254 -6433

again 717 -254 -6433.

We know we were made for so much more than

lending faith finances and generosity.

That's the thriving story.

Chef exclusive catering is in south central pennsylvania.

Chef exclusives goals to provide a dining experience that is sure to please any palate.

Chef damian white of chef exclusive is a graduate of the renowned johnson and wales university with a degree in

culinary arts and applied science.

Chef exclusive catering's event center is newly designed with elegance and style and is available for

small office gatherings bridal showers engagement parties and rehearsal dinners.

Critics and guests alike acknowledge chef exclusives commitment to exceeding even the highest

expectations.

I know of their quality firsthand since.

Chef exclusive catered by most recent iron sharpens iron radio pastor's luncheon.

For details call 717 -388 -3000 that's 717

-388 -3000 or visit chef exclusive .com.

That's chef exclusive .com.

Hi.

I'm pastor bill shishko inviting.

You to tune into a visit to the pastor's study.

Every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio

www .wlie540am .com we

bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with

your questions.

Our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull.

Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's.

Because everyone needs a pastor welcome back.

Before we return to our discussion with doug givett and holly pivock on

a new apostolic reformation a biblical response to a worldwide movement we have some important announcements

to make.

First of all the upcoming g3 conference that is returning

to atlanta georgia from january 17th through the 20th and

i am so excited that i'll be heading out there to atlanta god willing to man an iron

sharpens iron radio exhibitors booth once again and meet many more of you who are either

already listeners to iron sharpens iron radio as i did last time met so many people for the very first

time from all over the world who have been listening for years to iron trip design radio.

But also i've been meeting uh people that are discovering for the first time the program and getting a chance

to also interview people that i have interviewed before but never met face to face doing

on -site remote interviews and i'm just looking forward to it so much.

On the 17th of january the conference begins with an exclusively spanish -speaking

edition of the conference in the daytime but in the evening at 7 p .m

on the 17th of january dr james r white will be debating a muslim apologist and i'll be getting you more

details on the name and topic of that muslim apologist and the area

that they are debating on.

Then from the 18th through the 20th the conference will be

exclusively in english and the speakers include stephen lawson vody

baucom phil johnson keith getty hb charles jr tim challis josh bice

james white tom askew anthony mathenia michael kruger david miller paul trip todd friel derrick thomas

martha peace justin peters and stephen nichols.

It seems that there are new uh speakers joining the roster here.

Very excited about that uh the theme is knowing god a biblical understanding of

discipleship.

And if you're wondering what the g3 stands for in the g3 conference that's grace gospel and glory.

If you would like to register for the g3 conference go to g3 conference .com g3 conference .com and

please please please mention that you heard about the conference from chris arnzen on iron trip and zion radio.

You can also register for an exhibitors booth if you have a business or a ministry that you would like

to promote just like i am doing with iron trip and zion i would love to be uh right near some

of my listeners if they are manning exhibitors booths.

So i look forward to hearing good news about that as well.

And now i have to do what i consider to be my most uncomfortable task during iron

trip and zion radio.

And that's beg you for money.

Uh especially is uncomfortable because of the fact there are so many charlatans out there even

like those we are discussing today uh televangelists and uh phony

fake uh faith healers and all kinds of people who promise all kinds of

things uh by uh the donations that you send in.

Well that obviously makes it more uncomfortable for people like me to ask you for money but i

am going to make no miraculous claims in regard to your donation the only thing your donation is going to do

is god willing it will help us keep uh on the air.

It will help us remain on the air.

And if you love the program if you love the guests and topics that we have here on iron trip and zion radio and you don't want this program

to disappear from the airwaves please go to iron trip and zion radio .com click on

support.

You will be given a mailing address where you can mail a check made payable to iron trip and zion radio for any amount that you can

afford.

And please always remember that i never want anybody siphoning money out of the regular giving

to their local church that you are accustomed to giving them.

Uh please don't do that.

And please don't take food off of your family's dinner table if you're struggling to make ends meet.

But if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands because those are

commands of scripture to provide for your family and your church.

Providing for iron trip and zion radio is not a command of god at all.

But if you don't want us to go away and you love the program please if you can afford to do so

without sacrificing anything in regard to the two commands of scripture that i'd mentioned and please send us

a check and send them as often as you can.

If you don't want us to go away.

And if you want to advertise with us just send me an email to chris arnson at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n

-z -e -n at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line whether it's your church your parachurch

organization your business your professional practice.

If you're a lawyer a doctor a dentist a chiropractor perhaps it's just a special event you're having as long

as whatever it is your advertising uh does not militate against the theology expressed on iron trap and zion radio.

We would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we surely could use the advertising dollars.

So send those emails to chris arnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

And that's also the mailing address or email address i should say to ask questions of our guests doug guyvet

and holly privik.

Uh and once again that email is chris arnson at gmail .com

chris arnson at gmail .com.

And we have a couple of more uh we have a few more actually uh

questions from our listeners we have.

David in ada ohio is the nar as money hungry as

the word of faith is that's kind of interesting on the heels of my plea for donations um

please give us some examples of the heavy -handed and authoritarian ways of this group.

Thank you.

So there's two questions for you about the money hungry attitudes and uh

also the heavy -handed authoritarianism that you you touched on but you didn't really give us i guess

too many specific examples of that.

So if you could right well as far as money goes um.

What what leaders in the nar will say is it takes money to uh to bring god's

kingdom to earth to build god's kingdom.

That that takes money.

So they're very unapologetic about that.

And and will and also they they they as the teachings that have been restored to the church i mentioned

one of those teachings it would say is the prosperity gospel that god wants his people to be blessed he wants his people to

be financially prosperous.

So they would not see it as shameful uh that their leaders have nice houses and a lot of money

and um and beyond that though they would say that the purpose of god

blessing his people with money is ultimately so they can build his kingdom.

Um so it's money with a purpose is what they would say.

Um so does that.

Does that adequately address the uh i will mention the apostolic networks.

Um uh apostolic networks are networks of churches and organizations that are governed by a single

apostle or a group of apostles.

One of the largest apostolic networks is harvest international ministry.

It's governed by apostle chaon and a team of um apostles

and prophets who work under him and they govern 25 000 churches and organizations in

like 55 nations something like that and each church is expected to to

give financially to chaon's network to support it um for their participation.

So so there obviously is a lot of money um you know that is uh going

to the apostles in this movement.

Now they would say in their defense that they're using this money to build god's kingdom that that takes money to do.

Um and then as far as the heavy -handed i'm sorry were.

You going to ask something.

Oh uh well before you get to the heavy -handed authoritarianism uh again because you did mention it before.

But uh the uh obviously there's nothing wrong with

a congregation wanting their pastors uh to live in nice homes.

There's a difference between a nice home and a lavish uh lifestyle that suits

royalty.

While there are people uh you know uh on the on the border of

of starving in the congregation um you know that there is a line that is

crossed when you have wasteful and really ridiculously lavish

lifestyles are the people in leadership uh in that latter category of just you know living

ridiculously lavish lifestyles i would say that.

That some have noted that the leaders in this movement uh many of them don't seem to be of

flaunting money in the way that you would see.

You know maybe benny hann or some of these uh prosperity gospel televangelists do

um so they're not.

They're not known for for flaunting money in that way.

Although i have um i have run across statements by certain narleaders where they

it did seem to be boasting about the amount of money they have.

And and and they're nice homes um and again that would fit into their framework.

For for god wanting his people to be.

Blessed now you could point.

They also produce materials.

Uh bethel church has ministries on

their campus there that also raise money for them.

And people might be a little surprised by the amounts that are taken in.

That doesn't mean that we can ascribe to them ulterior

motives or some sort of.

But it is it is noteworthy.

I think it was in 2013 their uh

school of supernatural ministry had about 1900 students almost 2000 students

and they took in seven million dollars in tuition.

That's my understanding.

Anyway now sort of thing that could be documented.

But again it doesn't follow from that that the money is being abused.

But it does indicate that the movement is being pretty well

supported financially by people who are involved.

And uh now the authoritarian uh the examples of authoritarian

control you uh already mentioned about uh i don't know if you would

call it arranged marriages but you seem to be hinting at the fact that they very often are

uh receiving in.

And of course they are receiving according to what they are saying or in their own minds receiving

revelation but sometimes these revelations involve who people are to marry and all those kinds of things what.

Give us some more examples of how they are in a an authoritarian fashion in a heavy -handed fashion

ruling the.

Congregation beneath them.

Right.

So so it's important to understand um how prophets are are viewed in this

movement.

Bill hammond.

He's very highly regarded in this movement.

He's often featured in charisma magazine as one of the most esteemed prophets alive today

he's very respected and um he says in his books uh like apostles prophets in the

coming moves of god that it is almost impossible for individuals to humble themselves under

god without humbling themselves in submission and relationship to christ delegated

representatives of him to his church.

And he goes on to say in in his books that to reject the words of a prophet is to reject

god.

And so you really have to get into the mindset and to understand that um to receive

prophets is to receive blessing from god.

To accept the nar prophet you will receive actual blessing from god in forms of financial

blessing um good health good relationships.

And if you reject the prophets you're rejecting god you will be outside of his blessing.

And so when you get into that mindset um then you can see that in these church

settings when people receive prophetic words from a prophet they really they there's

high pressure uh on them to to accept those words.

And one example a specific example i can think of is a couple i've i uh know

of who um every time they make a they're a business couple they're they're high up in

business in their community.

And every time they need to make a business decision they will fly a prophet from another state

to their state and to receive revelation from him about what they should do.

And um and so or and several people in the same community

follow this particular prophet and so they will if they're uh need advice for their

marriage business decisions whatever it is they will actually fly this prophet to them to

to consult him before they make any moves.

And this is uh this is very common actually and so um it plays out in all kinds of ways.

I mean i you know another young lady i know would tell me that you know she would see

prophetic words about um what she needs why she hasn't found a spouse and what

she needs to do to start doing in order to find a spouse.

And and these kind of prophecies really put people in bondage.

Uh one man shared that he was afraid his son lived in a he and his wife were separated his son lived in a

faraway state but prophets kept telling him that if he stayed where he was that he

would end up with really influential ministry like uh impacting thousands of people.

And now in hindsight he realizes what a mistake that was.

It kept him from moving back to be with his young son living near him as he should have been because he

was afraid of missing out on god's will which he thought he was supposed to stay where he was in that location.

So there's all kinds of uh uh fall out from.

Prophetic words people have received like these.

And uh let's see here.

Um oh oh.

By the way i forgot to tell david that you have also won a free copy

of the book a new apostolic reformation and so make sure that we have your full mailing address there in aida

ohio and we'll have cvbbs .com ship that out to you at no cost.

To you or to iron trap and radio.

And once again we thank weaver book company for providing us these three copies of the book.

We have casey in canapolis north carolina and casey

has a couple of questions.

First casey asks how can reformed charismatics

join in denouncing the craziness and bizarre doctrines of the nar.

Uh well i don't even know if my guests today are theologically reformed.

As i am i'm a reformed baptist.

I'm not a charismatic but i'm a reformed baptist.

And apparently our listener casey is a reformed charismatic or

theologically calvinistic charismatic.

But if you want to just make it a general question how can charismatics that are more in the mainstream

of evangelical christianity join in in denouncing the craziness and bizarre doctrines of

the nar.

Do you want to start with this one.

Okay.

Sure.

Yeah i think that the question can be put more generally because this is a concern uh for

anyone uh regardless of denomination or

orientation.

That's uh historically or his nar and the

movement and its teachings and its practices are making inroads into the churches across

denominations and in non -denominational churches not just charismatic churches or

pentecostal churches.

And of course this is happening in various ways and for various reasons but in our books we that

you can uh identify the emergence of nar

tendencies in your own congregation.

There are ways that you can um pick up an awareness of the

intrusion of nar ideas at a very basic level even

before it grows into a major movement in your church.

And we've also given some specific suggestions to pastors and parents who

want to respond graciously and gracefully to people they know and their

families or their congregations uh that are able to this or

participating in this movement.

Now maybe holly would like to speak to some of those specifics and say what sorts of things.

That we've recommended for this right.

Well we really do.

Um you know as you mentioned we really do encourage pastors to um learn about this movement and and

to uh educate people about it from the pulpit.

I really believe that if um that was happening more often on this movement um would not

be able to grow as big as it is it has.

Um uh we developed a resource a study guide um to go with our we have a

smaller book called god's super apostles which is a more it's a shorter version of of a new

apostolic reformation and we we developed a study guide to go along with this book.

And we really are urging people in churches and small groups and sunday school classes and just to gather

and and use the study guide to help educate other people larger

groups in their churches about this movement.

Um and so uh those are.

And then and then talking with uh children or young people who might be being drawn to the more young people high

schoolers college -age students who are so often drawn to to this movement.

Um it's uh really important to when you talk with them to um

be very gentle and not get too worked up.

Um one thing that that we found is unfortunately the leaders in this movement will often um

kind of vilify the critics of this movement and and say that the critics of this movement are just mean

-spirited and um and uh lack the holy spirit

and and these kind of things.

And so if if we respond with gentleness and um grace

and um then then i think that the young people will will be more

likely to listen to our concerns than if we just um maybe get overly

alarmed when they start getting drawn into these teachings.

Um those are a few things.

There's one other.

Shorter resource that we've provided.

I think that study guide that holly just mentioned uh could be really valuable to somebody like casey and

and others who have this concern.

Uh we have heard from pat have asked us if if we

have any information that they could circulate in their church and uh one in particular

asked us if we had drafted anything that could be distributed to the elders or the deacons of the

church and then um provide a point of departure for

discussion in the congregation.

And so we didn't have anything like that until we were asked to append

to the paper and we came up with something and sent it to them.

And now holly's made that available at her blog her website.

And holly is there.

Is there some other place they need to turn to be able to get.

Their hands on that short document no they can um they can go to the

blog and if they have trouble finding it uh just contact me through my blog and i would be happy to

send a copy of that um position paper and um i we've had

other organizations even some large organizations contact us and and are

considering adopting something like um that position paper because they've seen the influx of nar

teachings um into their their own organizations so i think that.

Would be a really good thing for people to take a look at.

And finally uh casey asks are you working on any uh

documentaries or dvd seminars.

Uh and things on youtube we've

we've talked a lot about.

It uh do you have anything to say there.

Doug.

Well and not only have we talked about it but.

We've had people that we don't really know approach us about doing some sort of

production along these lines and i think we both uh would be a little reluctant

to partner up with people that we don't know much about.

I teach at biola university in talbot school of theology and we have uh film students and a

production center and it's possible that we could um connect up with people

through them or and and do this but there's a cost

involved.

We wouldn't want to do anything that that wasn't really of quality.

And uh we have been praying that we would um that god would bless this effort to get

the word out by other means too.

So in various uh you know through various media like your show chris on the

radio and and even television if that might happen.

You know it's something that's crossed our radar but not something we've actually put together

yet.

I think um it's more realistic at this moment if we

could develop a like a weekend seminar that

might be presented at a church where they really wanted to focus and hunker down and deal

with these issues and could be a resource for that.

So those are really two different things we thought about doing something on media but also

doing something um through some seminar conference work as it might fit into our schedules.

All right.

Well thank you casey and uh guess what.

You have also won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today a new apostolic reformation.

Compliments of weaver book company and also compliments of cvbbs .com.

We'll be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or iron turbines iron radio so please

make sure we have your full mailing address in canapolis north carolina.

We're going to our final station break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air i would do so right away because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside of the good old usa don't go away.

God willing we will be right back.

Right after these messages from our sponsors

paul wrote to.

The church at galatia.

For am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man.

If i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ.

Hi.

I'm mark lukins pastor of providence baptist church.

We are a reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689.

We are in nofolk massachusetts.

We strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either.

We believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be

vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and

love.

If you live near norfolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528

-5750 or go to our website to email listen to past sermons worship songs or watch

our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma

.org that's providence baptist church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Have you been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio.

We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you.

There are four ways you can help.

First do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on iron sharpens

iron radio.

Second whenever possible purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise

and then let them know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio.

Thirdly you can also donate to iron sharpens iron radio by going to our website at iron sharpens

ironradio .com and click support at the top of the page.

But most importantly keep iron sharpens iron radio in your prayers.

We hope that iron sharpens iron radio blesses you for many years to come.

Hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune

into a visit to the pastor's study.

Every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio

www .wlie540am .com we

bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with

your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull.

Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study.

Because everyone.

Needs it.

Charles heddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads.

Will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com that's solid

-ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you

can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio and my

apologies to pastor bill shishko.

For cutting off accidentally the end of his ad and those last comments

everyone needs a pastor.

And that's certainly true.

Please tune into his program every saturday from 12 noon

to 1 pm eastern time on

wlie540am .com anywhere in the world via live streaming.

And bill shishko is certainly a brilliant man a dear friend and brother in christ.

And the program a visit to the pastor study is well worth your time.

I heartily recommend it without any risk of exaggeration or

flattery.

It is a wonderful program.

And bill shishko is a biblically faithful and dear brother in christ.

So please tune in every saturday 12 noon to 1 pm on

wlie540am .com live streaming all over the world.

You can also tune in to 540 am on the radio dial if you live anywhere in the new york

tri -state area and even parts of pennsylvania massachusetts and rhode island.

So it has quite a large coverage area during the daylight hours.

And of course please remember solid solid ground christian books during the holiday season.

Solid -ground -books .com is their website solid -ground -books .com

uh they had experienced quite a bit of a sales slump when they relocated from alabama to

florida.

I'm not sure if that was just a coincidence but uh please consider them during your holiday

shopping.

And in fact even when you order from cvbbs .com cvbbs

.com uh which is a book distributor and sponsor of iron trip and design radio you can order solid

ground christian books from cvbbs .com because solid ground christian books is a publisher

whereas cvbbs .com is not.

They are just a book distributor.

So you can even call cvbbs .com at 800 -656 -0231 800

-656 -0231 and ask them about the uh inventory

that they have of solid ground christian book titles.

Or you could even before you call them you can go to solid -ground -books .com make a list of the books that you

want from solid ground christian books.

And then you can order them from cvbbs .com and kill two birds with one stone making both of

our book related advertisers happy.

Well uh we are now back to our discussion on a new apostolic reformation

a biblical response to a worldwide movement with our guests doug givett and holly pivock.

And uh if you'd like to join us on the air before we run out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And we have a christian in suffolk county

long island new york who asks does this movement

discourage members from using medicine and seeking the medical aid of

physicians doctors and hospitals like some other cults do who believe in miraculous

healing.

In our day and age what i would say about that is um

from what i've seen people in this movement are usually encouraged

um to use medical aid and to um and faith and

so uh the i it's um how individual

people um take these teachings can play out differently.

But um but some people they'll say that it's left up to the individuals

sometimes to decide um that they they should have faith that god will heal them.

And of course making negative confessions is um is seen as very dangerous in this

movement.

If you say i'm sick i have cancer um something like that then um you

that makes it so that you can't be healed and so.

But at the same time people in this movement um do often go to doctors

and and are encouraged to to pursue medical treatment as well.

So there's i don't know how to explain it other than there's sometimes a real schizophrenia in in

this movement.

And i've seen this in people i know in my own life um who've been caught up in these teachings where they

could be um suffering from cancer but at the same time they feel like they can't

even acknowledge that they have cancer because by acknowledging that they have cancer that's making a negative

confession and and god won't heal them because that's a lack of faith.

And so i hope that uh let me just say too

that some i know may have um i think a an

unusual expectation maybe an unrealistic expectation that they will be healed.

These would be people who are getting medical aid but they are also praying and expecting

really to be healed.

Um thinking that this is a decision that god will make

uh and will do so without actually revealing to you what his intentions are in advance.

So um i've seen that as well.

Thank you so much christian.

Uh please make sure you give us your full mailing address there in suffolk county long island new york because you have also

won a free copy of the book a new apostolic reformation and that will be shipped out to you by

cvbbs .com as soon as possible.

We have bb in cumberland county pennsylvania.

Who wants to know is this movement primarily made up of

believers in that theology and system of religion who plant their own

churches or are they more involved in infiltrating existing congregations who do not

already share their which seems to be what the apostle paul was warning timothy

about in the new testament.

Um from what i i know that uh a criticism i have heard of this movement

is that that they do seem to gain many of their um people

just from taking them from other more conservative churches.

And i do think there's a lot of truth to that that what you have a lot of times is you have people that grew up in more

conservative say a baptist church or something like that and um.

And then they discovered nar teachings and suddenly the idea that uh they could become

miracle workers and bring god's kingdom to earth these teachings were very exciting made their faith feel

alive and and so they got drawn into the nar movement.

Um in that way and that's a very common testimony of people in this movement.

Um but i do know of people who are caught up in these teachings as well

who do serve as missionaries and in third world countries and that kind

of thing too.

And you know it's it's uh i think it's true that both are happening.

There are church plants and then there is infiltration which is actually a pretty good

word.

But the word infiltrate um also suggests that it's happening sort of

under the radar um and under the noses.

And then they get kind of caught off guard by it when it grows and that

does happen.

But it's also true that some of the nar leaders will host large

events and they'll invite churches to come and participate.

And it'll be an event that's supposed to be edifying.

There'll be some good um christian teaching involved.

And uh you know pastors will encourage their people to go.

It looks innocuous looks like a safe thing to do and they might go.

And then um something has spawned there that they didn't expect.

Another thing that'll happen is that people in the churches might try to persuade leadership

to invite somebody to come and speak.

It might be a bill johnson or somebody else that's a pretty significant figure in the

movement and uh and then and then the seed is planted that way and then

they're on track to

redding california uh into bethel church and then um want to bring

back what they've learned and bring back their zeal and the enthusiasm and try to see it realized in their own churches

and bring other people into that same spirit of things and bring

them if they reach the bethel church and experience

firsthand some of these same things so the root in churches it could be a new

church plant.

It can be infiltration or

it can be fully understood.

Thank you.

Bb in cumberland county you have also won a free copy of a new apostolic.

Reformation.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address.

In cumberland county pennsylvania.

We have john and bangor main who says uh does the

new apostolic reformation adhere to some of the more blasphemous

notions that word of faith adherents are known for such as jesus

christ becoming a demonic entity on the cross jesus christ becoming the first

born again man in hell and that jesus christ performed his

miracles and conducted his ministry on earth.

As a hundred percent man but not as deity.

So the teaching that jesus um conducted his miracles a

hundred percent as man relying on the power of the holy spirit and did not access uh divine his

divine his deity to do that that is uh teaching uh that's very common in

the movement.

It's uh promoted by bill johnson at bethel reading.

And um in my understanding you know he's made some statements that that people have

understood as as that he didn't believe jesus was god that he actually gave up his

deity when he came to earth and um and then you know maybe regained it after

he he died and rose again but um but in my understanding of bill johnson's

teachings when he when he clarified them more um he seems to believe that

jesus was a hundred percent divine when he was on earth a hundred percent deity and fully god's holy

man.

But that he did not.

He chose not to access his divine powers uh when he was on earth.

So he could set a pattern for all other people to learn to work miracles like he did in the power of the

holy spirit.

And as far as the other word of faith teachings um the nar again has um has

all of these teachings word of faith prosperity gospel all of these other teachings they see as lost truths that have been restored

to the church.

So um i i'm sure that you could find people within the nar who who hold to

those particular um word of faith uh tenets um but i'm sure not

all do.

Well thank you john and bangor main make sure you give us your full mailing address because you've also won a free copy of a new apostolic

reformation.

Compliments of our friends at weaver book company.

And we have susan margaret in dauphin county pennsylvania.

And susan margaret says do these congregations that

adhere to the nar heresy openly identify themselves

as a new apostolic reformation congregation in their literature in their signage etc

or are they more cunning and secretive about this.

I'd say definitely not it would be very.

Unusual to find a church that had the words new apostolic reformation up on their their sign in front of the

church or even on their website perhaps um so the way that you you know that

a church is part of the nar.

Sometimes you have to dig a little deeper because they may have fairly standard statements of faith on their their website they

often do.

But um if they promote the idea that there are present -day governing offices of

apostle and prophet and that's the biblical correct biblical church government uh

then that's a ministry known as fivefold or teaching on a fivefold ministry that's a buzzword you can look

for.

Um so you need to you need to pay attention and be alert for specific nar

practices like um like sozo um which is a which is

kind of a counseling type of nar counseling session that's really popular in churches now

or um 24 -7 prayer rooms being established or healing rooms or the practice of treasure

hunting which is a particular nar form of evangelism that's popular in this movement

you need to be on the lookout for their use of words like apostolic or prophetic.

Of course apostles or prophets uh you know if you see these things these are clues that you may need to dig a

little bit deeper and in that uh of course if they promote um bill johnson bethel

reading like fickle the international house of prayer uh some of these big nar

organizations and leaders those can be clues to that a church may have uh be caught up in nar

teachings.

I'd like to jump in here on this as well.

Uh you know if you think that you can just ask the question in your

organization part of the new apostolic reformation it's most likely they'll

say no.

And sometimes they'll say what what are you talking about.

I don't even know what that's supposed to be.

You could go to bethel church ready and ask that question and somebody and and and be

told by a leader there.

Um who knows what the new apostolic reformation really is.

But we're not affiliated officially with any group like that.

And so you might walk away and think oh well then what's going on here.

They're not part of that at all.

And this is a this is a problem.

This is a problem for people who don't have time to do a lot of research and and study because

the only way you can really know is if you know more about the movement and you know

other questions that you can ask so that you can get a description of what they're doing and

not just a label.

So this is one of the reasons why we've done two books we've got one that documents in a

very thorough way by quoting all their sources the things that we say

and the arguments that we make.

And then we have a shorter book that is really intended for people who have less time

to devote to that kind of close study but it would educate them to the more specific

things you'd want to know so that you could be discerning and be able to tell um what

is really going on even if they.

Deny that they're nar.

Thank you susan.

Margaret make sure you have or give us i should say your full mailing address in dalton county

pennsylvania because you've also won a free copy of the new apostolic reformation.

Uh we have ronald in eastern suffolk county long island new york.

Who wants to know.

Are there a significant number of people who have discovered while in the nar

that this is indeed a dangerous and heretical organization who have left and who have

maintained a biblically solid theology

afterwards.

Also i know that it is quite frequent sadly that people who have been burned by cults

and abusive churches abandon christianity and religion altogether.

Can you discuss both instances with regard to nar.

I would say um i've i've.

Come across many people who have who have left nar uh teachings and

churches and and do now have a very sound theology.

And um you can find testimonials like that from people all over the internet um

and just people i've i've personally no one encountered.

Um i did want to make one clarification.

We would not refer to the nar as a single organizational entity.

The nar isn't a single organization.

It's it's a movement made up of of churches and organizations that believe

that there are present -day governing offices of apostle and prophet.

And so it's not a single organizational entity.

Which is one reason it makes this movement so hard to pin down is because um you can't just go

online and find a website and have a list of all of the participating leaders in in churches

it really is that they're united by this this defining belief.

In the offices of apostle and yeah just like the word of fit oh

go ahead.

I'm sorry holly were you.

No no go ahead.

Doug i was going to speak to this question about people who might um actually

leave the church and leave the faith because uh getting burned or becoming disillusion uh

through their experience with an nar church and uh that does happen and

it's one reason why i became very interested and involved in research and

study of this and i use um one of our books as a course book for a

class that i teach at uh the seminary uh in christian apologetics because i think of

this as an apologetics issue and i see it on more than one level uh there are people

knowledge of the gospel of jesus christ and they need to be reasonable in holding the beliefs that they do.

And it's very easy to be lured into a movement like this that

understates the value or even denies really the value of critical thinking when you

decide what you're going to believe.

The second is that there are people who become disillusioned.

They become um they you know they they make decisions and things go sour because

they've received some some sort of uh word from a prophet and they just want to walk away

and rather than finding another church doctrine and a faithful to

christ and a loving community they might just wash wash their hands of christianity altogether and move on in

their lives.

And then the third is the media and the broader culture.

You know how it is with the media chris uh the secular media they see something that's

as these this and a lot of people are

talking about it.

There's a lot of buzz around it and so they and

consequently people who are paying attention to the media are hearing about this movement and

oftentimes in the secular media it's just being ridiculed at the same time that it's being

associated with what christians in general believe and so we need to be wary about that.

As apologists we need to be helping others realize that this is not the church

historic christianity and uh it's not.

It's not the authentic it doesn't reflect the authentic experience of the spirit of god in the life

of the church but that's just not as well known in the secular world because

attention there is is drawn to it gravitates to

well i want to make.

Sure that you each have about two minutes to uh speak uninterrupted

to give a summary of what you each most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Go ahead doug you can start.

I have of course several concerns but they can be summarized in terms of uh

just a handful of key words.

One is i i believe that this movement um brings with it dissension

now.

This is ironic because people like ourselves who try to open the

scriptures and make clear what god teaches about such things used of

being divisive and causing dissension in the church and being over you

know maybe accused of these things by people who are themselves

operating in this in this way.

And uh so that's that's one concern that i have that it is truly divisive.

And another is it's deceptive.

Either passages of scripture interpreted in a very

sketchy fashion ignored and doctrines or

teachings are presented that are coming out of their own prophetic tradition but can't be grounded in scripture at

all.

Or if you try to reason with them from scripture just

ignore what you have to say.

Rather than entering into the details of close study of what the scriptures teach we emphasize

this in the example of the bereans.

They're looking to study the scriptures to see if what they were hearing even from

god's own.

So those are two things i'm concerned

about would be the divisiveness and and the deception.

And before.

You give your own summary holly.

We have joey in clifton new jersey who says are people in the nar movement self -aware

of themselves as a movement.

Do they actively promote themselves as a movement or are they simply more simply he used

the word simply twice.

There they're simply.

More zealous for their own gospel.

You know i would say that many people in the movement are not aware that it's a movement for sure.

Um i i know that from talking with people they they are sometimes surprised to learn they're part of a movement

um.

But some are aware that it's a movement uh the ones that um keep up more with these

with these type of things um so i would i would say both.

Both is true.

All right.

Joey.

Uh thank you so much and give us your address because you've won the last copy of the book that we are addressing the new apostolic reformation.

And if you could holly now summarize what you most want our listeners to know before we go off the air.

Sure and right before i just wanted to mention the movement being divisive and i on my blog

i get contacted by people all the time whose families have been really um harmed

by this movement children and spouses are divided over over these teachings.

Um many churches split over this movement you know it's the apostles way or the highway um and so

these teachings are inherently divisive and and it's brought a lot a lot of destruction.

But but my my thing i really wanted to mention is nar.

Uh nar is an undoing of the protestant reformation principle of sola scriptura.

And this despite the fact that nar leaders frequently try to portray their movement as an outworking of the

protestant reformation um but they teach that their new revelations are necessary if the church is

going to finish the great commission which they've basically redefined as bringing heaven to earth.

Um yet protestants you know as you know i've historically believed that scripture is sufficient and it contains every teaching

the church needs for its belief and practice uh from 2nd timothy 3 15 through 17.

And that just that's something that really um concerns me is

is the attack on the principle of sola scriptura.

And and going along with that uh there's an nar translation of the bible i don't know if you've heard of it but it's called the passion

translation.

It's very popular being used in many churches promoted by many nar leaders

including bill johnson and shaon and it's produced by an apostle named brian simmons who claims christ visited

him personally commissioned him to write this new translation and yet he lacks the

credentials and skills required to produce a reliable translation of the bible.

It just basically takes uh verses and rewords them.

So it it makes it sound like they support nar teachings and um and very

troubled uh by the popularity of this nar bible and i i think it's something that should be on

people's radar.

Well i know that your website or.

Your blog is spirit of error .org spirit of error .org

and i want to thank you both for being on the program.

Uh doug do you have any contact information that you care to give.

Well i can do.

Through biola university and if anybody wants to be in touch with

me then they can contact me at the general phone number there

or through the office of the department

of law and the website.

Is biola .edu b -i -o -l -a .edu.

I want to thank you both for being on the program.

I look forward to returning to the program at some point in the future.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than

you are a sinner.