June 27, 2017 Show with Nathan Pickowicz on “The Key to Revitalizing Post-Christian America”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth, listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 27th day of June 2017, and I'm very excited to have for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Nate Pikowitz.

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He is pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire, a writer for Entreating Favor and Servants of Grace, and he's the author of a number of books, including a book we are going to be discussing today,

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Reviving New England, The Key to Revitalizing Post -Christian America.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to, welcome you back, I'm sorry, welcoming you to the first, for the very first time ever, to Iron Sharpens Iron, Nate Pikowitz.

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Hey, thank you for having me on, I appreciate it. I guess since I was speaking to you off the air before the show started,

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I immediately went to welcoming you back. That's all right, that's okay. And I'm also excited to announce that,

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God willing, I will be attending the Fellowship Conference New England in Portland, Maine, where I will have an exhibitors booth to promote

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and God willing that is, and I'm looking forward to meeting our guest,

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Pastor Nate Pikowitz, in person. He is one of the speakers for this conference, and we'll be talking more about that conference later, but just to give you a little taste,

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Pastor Don Curran is one of the four speakers. He's the Eastern European Coordinator with HeartCry Missionary Society, which is the organization founded by Paul Washer.

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My dear friend Pastor Mack Tomlinson, who is pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and the author of a number of books, and I'm going to repeat my prayer request to you in the listening audience, to please pray that my brother

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John, my oldest brother, who is 72, I believe now, he lives 10 minutes away from Pastor Mack Tomlinson.

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He is not a believer, and Pastor Mack has contacted him, trying to invite him to lunch, and he has hemmed and hawed and delayed the meeting, and I just ask of you to pray that my brother

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John gives in and meets with Pastor Mack, because my brother John has critical stage emphysema, and he even knows that the

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Lord could take him any moment, although I don't know if he would phrase it that way, because he's not a believer, but I appreciate your prayers on that regard.

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And also speaking at the conference, the Fellowship Conference New England, is

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Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, the sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, who has a radio station that airs this program,

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, every day in a pre -recorded fashion. And last but not least, our guest,

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Pastor Nate Pickowitz, that will be the 3rd through the 5th of August in Portland, Maine, and we'll give you more details about that later.

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But Pastor Nate Pickowitz, I would like you, before we get into any of the background of the church where you pastor, or even our topic at hand,

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I want our listeners to know what providential circumstances that our Sovereign Lord used in your life to draw you to Himself and save you, what kind of religious background were you raised in, if any, and describe that way that the

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Lord enabled you to discover His Gospel and to finally believe in His Gospel.

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Sure. I was raised in a Christian home. My parents both went to church, and it brought me with them, and I thought

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I was a believer at a younger age. I was baptized at age 13, and then my parents divorced when

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I was 13, and for the next 10 years, I just wandered around. I even had friends of mine in college that were praying for me, they were

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Christians, and they were praying that I would get saved. So I don't know if I was a false convert at a young age, or if I backslid,

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I'm not really sure exactly, but when I was about 23, I met my woman who is now my wife, and my father, who had wandered away and came back to the

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Lord and invited me to go to church with him. And at first, I wasn't super interested, neither was my, quote, girlfriend at the time, but we went, and she and I both heard the

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Gospel, and continued to hear the Gospel, and she was Roman Catholic, and professed her faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, and I was drawn back to the

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Lord. A lot of the things I'd already known as a kid, but now it became real to me. So I can't pinpoint an exact date during that time, but it was a process of coming back to the

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Lord from at least possibly cultural Christianity, at least going to church, I'm not really sure.

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But yeah, it was right around 2003, and we got active in that church, and then that church kind of sort of wandered away toward the secret sensitive movement, and we soon left and found our way into a

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Bible church, and that's where we grew the most, and really came to understand a lot in greater detail about how the

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Lord had saved us, what it meant to believe on Christ, His sacrificial death, propitiation, expiation, all those things, came to understand the

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Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ at a Bible church. So that's kind of some of my history right there.

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And when did you realize that you had received the call from God to become a pastor? You know,

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I think that was sort of a long period of time. It was right around 2009 that I really began to love the

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Word of God. I'd always kind of sort of read my Bible just as obligation, something

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I sort of had to do, but was never really in tune with what the Bible had to say.

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It was just a smaller discipline. But right around 2009, it was actually December of 2009, I started to really love the

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Word of God. I discovered the ministry of John MacArthur. I listened to, I don't know, how many hundreds of his sermons, and just began to learn my

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Bible, to study my Bible theology, and my love for the Word propelled me into desiring to teach other people what the

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Bible said. I began to do men's ministry, and somewhere shortly after that, people in my church, leadership in my church, discovered that I was interested in these things, and sort of brought me into different varying degrees of leadership.

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It was men's ministry, then worship ministry, and then leadership in the church, and from then on. So if I had to trace it back,

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I would say somewhere around 2009, and the desire really came from learning the

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Word of God, learning doctrine, and just understanding who God was, what

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He was doing, and my responsibility to obey Him and to walk in His precepts.

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Judging from your last name, the spelling of your last name, I'm going to guess you're Polish, am I correct?

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That's actually very good, because most people think I'm either Jewish, we do have some

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Austrian heritage, but most of my family does come from Poland, we think.

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We lost a lot of the records, I'm not really sure, but it's definitely not Irish, I'll tell you that. Well, my mother's side of the family are from Poland.

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My grandparents, who have long left this earth, long ago left this earth, they actually snuck out of Poland after the war and the

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Nazi occupation of Poland, and they wound up here in the

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United States, and my mother and her sisters were the first generation Americans from the family, and it's interesting that you mentioned

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Austria, because I have heard that my mother's father may have originally been from Austria before moving to Poland, but their name was

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Husak, H -U -S -A -K, but we whenever I see a fellow

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Pole, I like to extend my greetings, even though I don't speak a word of Polish, although I do love

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Polish food. And before we even go into the subject at hand today, well actually before we even do that,

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I'd like to have you tell our listeners about Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton, Ironworks, New Hampshire, and I'm hoping

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I'm pronouncing Gilmanton correctly. That is correct, actually. I was born and raised in Gilmanton, Ironworks.

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There is a Gilmanton, but there's also a Gilmanton, Ironworks. They're two halves of the same town.

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They have different zip codes and everything. I don't know why, it's just stubborn northern pride,

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I suppose. I'm not really sure why we have two different town names. I grew up here. We always knew, living here as church -going people, that we didn't want to stay in town.

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There wasn't much gospel witness in town, so we'd always go away. We'd travel a half hour to find a Bible church.

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So when the time came to look at ministry opportunities, the church I was serving at, the idea came up about church planting.

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Now I'd never pastored a church before, I'd never planted a church before, but it just seemed like this was the right thing to do.

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So I came back to the town I was raised in, and we planted a church there in 2013.

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I just began to minister there and try to recover the gospel and biblical teaching.

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I worked through biblical exposition at our church, working through the book of Colossians just a couple weeks ago.

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So just trying to return some of this ground over to gospel ministry, because there's been so much liberalism and so much of the

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UCC denomination has just ruled and reigned up here. So we're kind of an oddity in this area as a

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Bible church. But that was certainly the desire, to start a Bible church where nothing fancy, nothing flashy, people just get together, have fellowship, hear the gospel, learn the word of God, and hopefully by God's grace can continue to grow.

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So the Lord has worked mightily. We've seen him just do amazing things at the church and raise up leadership and work through discipleship and have opportunities to witness to people, and it's just been a real joy to be part of this ministry.

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Now, would you describe it as a Reformed church, a Reformed Baptist church? Is it confessional?

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Is it none of those? How would you describe it? I know that a lot of people don't like to use labels, but I'm just curious how you would describe it theologically.

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Sure. Well, we are an EFCA church plant, so the Evangelical Free Church of America.

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Now, a lot of streams can flow into the EFCA, but that's our background in terms of denominational affiliation.

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Generally speaking, I'm Reformed in my theology. I would say that in terms of theologically,

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I'm probably as close to the Master's Seminary. I could sign off on their statement without batting an eyelash.

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So that's the theology that I maintain, just because I think it's the correct theology, in my personal opinion.

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But it's not something that we advertise. I don't say this is a Reformed church or a Calvinistic church or anything like that, because most people up here

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I don't think really know what that means. And if they do know the terms, they oftentimes know

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Calvinist in a pejorative sense. They know Reformed theology is a bad thing, a lot of people, because I think it's just had a bad name in this area.

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And so, you know, I certainly am never going to shy away from it. I teach the scriptures as I believe that they're given.

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You can't teach through John chapter 6 without seeing the Lord drawing people to himself. It's just impossible.

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So I teach from that perspective, because I think it's correct. But I don't advertise it, just because we have people that are coming in that might not know what they believe.

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And I'd rather win them over to the Bible, I'd rather win them over to the Gospel than win them over to a theological system, even if I think that system is correct.

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And so I really try to focus on this is what the Bible says, this is what the Lord means to say in this passage, and my hope, my goal is that they would just come to love the

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Word of God and love the Lord himself, and over time see that there is an underpinning theological system that is here.

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But again, I really do desire to win them over to Christ, and that I believe that a right understanding of Scripture will necessitate right theology.

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But we are Baptistic, I was raised in a Baptist church, and so we believe in baptism,

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Believer's Baptism. But that's generally my theology, for the most part.

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And you mentioned Master's Seminary, for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with Master's Seminary, that is the seminary founded by John MacArthur, who is one of my modern -day heroes, and it was so nice to share some fellowship this past week.

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I was in New York City for a few days, two of those days, for the

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Foundations Conference, the conference run by Sermon Audio, and Phil Johnson was there,

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Executive Director of Grace to You, John MacArthur's television radio and literary ministry.

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And a dear friend of mine from Long Island, New York, Chris Pandolfi, who's a graduate of Master's Seminary, and I have, although I've never been to seminary,

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I've never even visited the campus of Master's Seminary, I have very high regard for the faculty there,

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I've interviewed some of the faculty, I've interviewed Dr. John MacArthur himself, I've interviewed Phil Johnson many times, and I look forward to interviewing more of the faculty from Master's Seminary in the future.

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And tell us about In Treating Favor and Servants of Grace, where you write occasional articles.

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Yeah, so, In Treating Favor, there's probably a longer story that would take up most of your program, but in essence, about two years ago

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I was contacted by Landon Chatman, who runs In Treating Favor, and he had been a blogger for, you know, a little bit online, and he contacted me and asked me if I wanted to write for him, and it immediately became a very good friendship, it became a blogging partnership, but it just transcended beyond that, we became very good friends,

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I talk to him just about every day when we're not too busy, but the goal of In Treating Favor is really to present biblical content, present articles that are edifying for the body, we don't do much in the way of polemics, if you will, we don't do much in terms of headlines, what's going on, it's really just trying to identify things that are going on in the

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Scriptures, you know, things that are pertaining to the Church, and sort of write from that perspective. And so, you know, right now

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I'm in the midst of restarting a series called the Best Book in the Bible series, and I go through and I offer up one book of the

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Bible and try to make a case for why that is the best book in the Bible. Now, there's 66 of them, everybody has a different opinion about which one they're looking at, and so the goal is really just to try to sell the reader on why each book is so valuable, and just display the magnificence of it.

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So my focus has been on biblical teaching with that site, and then another friend of mine,

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Dave Jenkins, has invited me to write for Servants in Grace, sadly I don't give him as much content as I'm sure he would like, but I've tried to maintain the same thing, just write biblical content, write theology, just write practical, theologically correct material as much as possible, it's going to be a help to the

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Church. So that's kind of my heartbeat, and then out of that I sort of discovered a love for writing, and that's kind of parlayed into writing other material as well.

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So they're both really great ministries, they're run by men I care deeply about, and I've met a lot of good friends through both of those ministries, and it's been a real joy to be part of those.

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Great, well I'm going to give our listeners our email address now, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Nate Pikowitz, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Before we go into the current topic that we are discussing today,

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Reviving New England, I want to give a little teaser to our audience about your new book coming out, it's not even in print yet, but Why We're Protestant, an

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Introduction to the Five Solos of the Reformation, if you could tell us a little about that, although the title is self -explanatory, perhaps you could tell us what would make this different than other books in the five solos, and the printing in the background artwork of your book cover, a very attractive book cover, but it's so microscopic

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I can't read it, is that the 95 Theses, or what is that? That is the 95

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Theses, and it's deliberately blurry because I want the title to stand out.

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Yeah, of course. That's the work of my friend Steve Melanson, he's a wonderful designer, he's been such a good friend to me to help me, he did the artwork for Reviving New England, he's done some work for Mike Avendroff, Justin Peters, he's done some great design work, so that's his cover, but yeah,

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Why We're Protestant, again, I'm in New England, there's a large percentage of Roman Catholic people up here, people of faith that are going to those churches, and there's a lot of people that have come out of Roman Catholicism that are attending

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Protestant churches, and there's a general sense in which there's a lot of people who are going to church, but might not really know what it means to be

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Protestant, what it means to be Catholic, the lines become so blurred. And over the last, you know, 50 or so years, the ecumenical movement has really pushed to sort of say, well, if everybody loves

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Jesus, it's all the same thing. And that sounds nice, it sounds wonderful that we can all hold hands and love the

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Lord, and that sounds great, but the bottom line is that, as you well know, there are major distinctives between these two theological views, and the

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Gospel itself is at stake. And so I sort of came up with the idea to do this,

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I was encouraged by the fact that it was the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, which in terms of Martin Luther's part of it, and I took the opportunity to teach through the five solas at my church.

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And again, I don't typically do that, I'm more of an expositor, Lectio Continua, going through books of the

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Bible, but I said, I want to stop and take six weeks and just teach the doctrinal distinctives of what the Reformation is, and show them, open up the

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Catholic Catechism and say, okay, this is what the Catechism teaches, this is what the Word of God says, and there's a problem in a lot of these cases.

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So be able to offer them an evaluation of theology, and offer them the five solas, and do it in such a way that was a little bit more palatable.

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When I was going through and doing research, there's a wonderful new series put out by Zondervan on the five solas, but it's five distinct books, and most people, at least in the pews, might not go out and buy five books on the solas.

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So I wanted to try to give them something that was a little bit more pared down, that really was an introduction that sort of whet their appetite, and I have a, at the end of the book

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I'm going to have a list of resources for them to go and find out more. But really to try to be a ministry that reclaims doctrinal truth.

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That was the whole point of the Reformation, was to reclaim the Bible and reclaim biblical doctrine.

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And so I think that we're going to have to contend for the faith in every single age, that's the whole point of Semper Reformanda, that we're always going to be reforming, always contending, and I feel like, you know, where I am with our church in New England, I mean, we need to be contending for the faith that's once delivered to all the saints.

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And so this is my hope, to be able to offer, at least on some level, a reaffirmation of what the

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Bible teaches about how a person comes to Christ, how they get saved, what is their authority, and it's the

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Word of God. That's my hope, is to be able to offer something for the person who's in the pews, who has questions about the differences, and try to reclaim the faith in that regard.

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Yeah, so when we get off the air after our interview today is over, I definitely want to schedule another interview with you on that book.

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So make sure that you hang on the line after our discussion is over for today. But for those of our listeners who keep hearing the phrase solos, and they don't know what our guest is talking about, that would be the watchwords of the

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Reformation, the pillars of the Reformation, that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, underneath the authority of the

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Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone. Did I miss any of the solos? I wasn't counting.

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Yeah, yeah. Sola Scriptura is Scripture alone. Sola Fide is faith alone. Sola Gratia is by grace alone.

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Sola Christus is in Christ alone, and so we dare glory to the glory of God alone. Absolutely right.

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And in our day and age, tragically, you will have evangelical churches trying to have an ecumenical relationship with Rome that is not based on truth, unfortunately.

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It's more based on emotion. And they will take the solos out. They will keep the watchwords, but remove the word alone.

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And when you remove the word alone, that turns a true gospel into a false gospel. That's right.

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The removal of that one word from all of those watchwords. It's interesting, because if you were to read,

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R .C. Sproul has a book that was published in 1995 called Faith Alone. It's a wonderful book, a classic book.

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And he deals with, at that time, in 1993, they had the Evangelicals and Catholics Together movement.

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It was an initiative to try to break down the walls and sort of get on the same page.

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And he talks about the two of those issues, and he says, but the main thing is that Sola Fide, in faith alone, was never really talked about.

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Because Roman Catholic theology believes in grace, believes in faith, believes in Christ, but not in grace, faith, and Christ alone.

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And it's a huge distinctive, and it's something that we cannot gloss over. That was

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Dr. Sproul's point. I think that needs to be the main point of contention, that it's not going to be

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Jesus Christ and something else. It's not the grace of God and something else. We have to get that right.

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The Bible's very clear about the origination of our salvation.

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The authority of the scripture is crystal clear, and we just can't afford to miss that. Well, today we are discussing a different theme, although I'm sure it is connected, obviously,

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Reviving New England, the Key to Revitalizing Post -Christian America, which is the first book by our guest,

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Nate Pikowitz. And I want to read a couple or a few of the accolades that have been written about this book by some folks that I have interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Mike Abendroth, who is a wonderful guest on this program, pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston, Massachusetts, and host of No Compromise Radio, he says, biblical crisp, fast -paced, all these words describe

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Nate's assessment of and remedy for America's spiritual tundra, commonly referred to as New England.

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Reviving New England is both a theological and historical primer written from the perspective of a passionate insider.

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As you read this book, you can feel Nate's heart burn for the salvation of souls and the

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Lord's glory in the veritable graveyard of Christianity. Whether you want the

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Lord to revive the hearts of people in New England or in your own hometown, reviving lays out the biblical elixir for God's honoring, for God honoring change.

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May Gilmanton, New Hampshire, be famous for three, for three things one day.

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And I have to put, it's quite obvious, I have to put my glasses on because I was struggling reading that.

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My old age is really creeping up on me faster than I care to admit.

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But another listener that I've had on this program who I really enjoy interviewing is

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Scott Christensen, and he says, Nate Pickowitz has provided an insightful diagnosis of what ills

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New England churches. He has also provided a potent antidote, revival, the sort of revival that took

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New England by storm in the mid -18th century, known as the Great Awakening. But this is no vain call without action.

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Pickowitz lays out a careful biblical and practical plan for spiritual revival.

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His remedies are needed not only in the unique environs of the

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Northeast, but all across the North American continent.

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The church desperately needs revival, and this book lays out the prescription for it.

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And last but not least, Todd Friel, who I've had on this program, really love

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Todd Friel. In fact, it was great to see Todd Friel just recently at the

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Foundations Conference in New York City. And Todd Friel, what a wonderful brother he is, and not only a very funny man, but a very biblically insightful man who

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I'm looking forward to having back on this program as frequently as I can.

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If Todd Friel, if his endorsement's on something, then you should take it seriously, although you should not always take

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Todd seriously. But Todd says, and I, let's see, wow,

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I am really out of it today. I just dropped my mouse here. I'm gonna have to get back to Todd's endorsement, because the computer just went to a different page.

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I was trying to grab my mouse here. Today is not my day, I guess. All right, that's okay.

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But what was the catalyst? I mean, obviously, you grew up in New England, and I'm sure that after you became a believer, that one of the catalysts for writing this book had to be that you knew of the rich Christian heritage of New England.

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You knew that this was the land of the Puritans, and that even the churches that those very

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Puritans founded, some of them, the buildings still exist and are being used.

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Tragically, the denominations, like you said earlier, the United Church of Christ, once before it became one of the most liberal and apostate denominations within what is known as Christendom, these churches once echoed with the thundering sermons of Puritans, and it's just totally amazing that this would happen.

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If you could just describe, in your own words, how the burden on your heart began for writing this book.

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Yeah, you actually hit it on the head. I mean, when I was looking to get into ministry, and I started to look around and meet other pastors and see other churches, and I'd go on to Google, and I would just look up the churches in the area.

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I mean, I would just go all over New Hampshire, and I would look for, you know, am

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I in ministry with doing the same ministry? I mean, is there other gospel preachers, other

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Bible preachers out there? And there were so many churches that really, at least from the outside looking in, had no desire to do gospel ministry, and it was what

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I suspected, because growing up here, that's what I saw as a kid. I mean, you just couldn't find a church that would teach you the

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Bible. It was such a rare thing. So as I was getting ready to plant and going around and fundraising and talking to ministries and pastors,

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I began to research the history, and just the stark contrast between the history that we have that's so rich, and I'm still reading and still learning, and it's just that the roots go so deep, it's amazing.

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I mean, we're the remnants of the Protestant Reformation, if you really think about it. I mean, this is the land of Edward, this is the land of Adoniram Judson, and this is the modern missionary movement that was birthed out of New England.

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So the roots are so deep, and then when you look at the landscape now, how far we've fallen, the contrast is so drastic, more so than any other place in the whole country.

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I mean, there are certainly other places in the United States that are depressed. I've gotten letters and emails from people all over the country telling me that, you know, that what

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I describe in the book is their hometown, and so I'm not ignorant of the fact that this exists in other places, but when you have six different states that are all in the same, you know, state of spiritual depression, it's not just a couple towns, it's a whole region that is just very dark, and a region that used to declare the bold truth of God.

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So it was depressing at first, but then I started to write to just look at the Bible and say, okay, what does

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God say is the prescription for biblical faithfulness? It's not a matter of revivalism trying to get people excited, it's a matter of what does

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God desire from people? Certainly that people would come to the knowledge of salvation, they would repent of their sin, they would trust in Him, but I started to look at what the

32:16

Bible teaches and look at the different revivals that are shown in the Scriptures, also in church history, and so the book really just was birthed out of looking at what the

32:27

Bible and church history had to say about revival. So that was really the impetus behind the book.

32:32

Great. We're going to be going to our first station break right now, and if anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

32:40

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

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USA. We already have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but if you'd like to join them, our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

32:59

Don't go away, God willing, but we'll be right back with Pastor Nate Pikowitz and more of Reviving New England.

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And please tune in to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio tomorrow to hear my interview with Pastor Bill Shishko, whose voice you just heard, host of A Visit to the

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Pastors' Study. Pastor Bill will be my guest tomorrow for both hours, 4 to 6 p .m.,

38:03

to address pastoral theology. So get your questions ready for Bill today and email them in tomorrow to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

38:14

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. By the way, now I have Todd Friel's endorsement for reviving

38:20

New England in front of me. Is New England forsaken? Certainly not. The land of the Puritans can be revived, and Nate Pikowitz beautifully shows us how.

38:30

Nate Pikowitz, if you've just tuned us in, is our guest today for both hours on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and we are discussing his book,

38:38

Reviving New England, and the subtitle of that book is The Key to Revitalizing Post -Christian

38:45

America. And once again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com

38:51

if you have a question for Pastor Nate Pikowitz. And were you saying something,

38:58

Pastor? What's that? I thought I heard you saying something, but I guess I was mistaken.

39:04

Maybe it was just some background noise. It's, we're having a thunderstorm right here at my house, so we might hear some background noise,

39:11

I'm sure. Yes, and I would find it quite odd that it was just your house having the thunderstorm.

39:19

You live on 1313 Mockingbird Lane, where the Munsters used to live. That's right.

39:27

But it is heartbreaking, isn't it, to know that New England, once so rich with the doctrines of grace, with Reformed theology, with biblical truth known for its

39:40

Puritan heritage, how that seemingly vanished. Can you give us some explanation how on earth that could possibly happen, and the

39:49

Ivy League schools along with them? Yeah, so for the most part, it seems to be a perfect storm.

39:56

You know, you have lots of different causes. When I was doing my research, because I asked the same question,

40:02

I'm like, how in the world did this go bad? So, so, so far, so far that a lot of it really came through, you know, liberalism coming into the seminaries and into the colleges.

40:12

I mean, every single institution that was founded for the purpose of gospel ministry,

40:18

Harvard, Yale, even Princeton in New Jersey, Brown University, all these schools that were founded for gospel ministry have all turned and embraced liberalism and have capitulated to higher criticism, and it really has begun through that.

40:36

But at the same time, you know, there is a sense in which when an area, when a region, when a nation turns their back against God, you know,

40:46

He's going to deliver them over to their own sin, and I believe there's a certain element of that as well, where, you know, people become so self -oriented, we turn away from the

40:54

Lord, and again, I'm not talking about some kind of, you know, nationalistic turning away or something like that, but when the churches themselves refuse to preach the

41:06

Word of God, refuse to preach the gospel, decide to adopt whatever cultural mandate is popular of the day, when you bring that into the

41:15

Church, and when the Church loses its light, then everything around it goes dark as well.

41:21

So, you know, again, I'm not looking to point historical fingers, but, you know, as soon as you depart from the

41:29

Word of God and you remove the Lord from your own pulpits, you're going to have this kind of decline.

41:37

We've seen it in Israel. It happened in Israel. It happened even in the Roman Empire, when, you know, cultural

41:43

Christianity finds its way in and everybody starts to capitulate to their own devices, then the

41:48

Church goes awry, and it went awry for a thousand years. So, you know, this is not unheard of.

41:54

It's just incredibly sad that we have such tradition and such heritage of faithful gospel ministry for hundreds of years and have turned away the last 75 or 100 years, and now we're just a flickering candle of the fire that used to be.

42:12

It seems that the first drop of poison that began to pollute the entire water system, if you will, of Puritanism, was the very slow and gradual toleration and then acceptance of Universalism.

42:30

Am I right about that? Yeah, I believe so. You know, I think that there's...

42:36

We had the Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, MBTS. They came through and did a tour of New England a couple weeks ago, and we were talking about that.

42:46

So I was able to talk with some of their historians, and it seems to be, you know, it seems that Universalism is finding its way in, but it was almost like this game where the newest trend of theological or even philosophical, you know, newness would come in and replace the former.

43:05

But, I mean, you know, even Edwards didn't go to Harvard because his dad thought at the time it was too liberal.

43:12

So this is the early 18th century, and Harvard's already going liberal. So, you know, we've always had this problem, which is why we're always having new institutions being founded.

43:23

That's the reason that Princeton was founded, because of all the liberalism, which is the reason that Westminster was founded, because of the liberalism that was founded at Princeton.

43:30

So we're always playing this cat -and -mouse game of trying to recover the

43:35

Gospel and trying to recover biblical doctrine, and it's just, it's gotten away from us.

43:40

And again, I don't want to blame just the seminaries, because, you know, I believe that pastors in the pulpits have abdicated their responsibilities.

43:48

I believe that churchgoers, believers, have turned away, and, you know, there is a sense in which, when something becomes cultural, you know,

43:56

Puritanism started to go downward in the 17th century, because they started to adopt the halfway covenant and try to get members into the church who weren't already saved, but hoping that just by being in the church they would get saved, and so they would adopt it that way.

44:11

So as soon as you dilute, you know, doctrines that pertain to regeneration and salvation, you're tampering with fire.

44:19

So again, I really do think it was a perfect storm of lots of different problems, you know, economic growth, everybody starts to become self -reliant, and they reject

44:29

God. So there's so many factors, and I'm still digging through and trying to figure out what caused what, and that's the best

44:40

I've got so far, but I seem to uncover something new every week that says, oh, that went wrong, oh, this went wrong over here.

44:47

My goodness, it's just, we can't pass the prize fast enough, it seems up here, you know?

44:54

So what do you mean in your book by the title, Oh Lord, Give Me New England?

45:00

What is meant by that very provocative phrase? Well, apart from just the fact that I would like God to give us back

45:08

New England, Jonathan Edwards, when he was in ministry, oftentimes it's reported that he would get down on his knees and he would pray and ask

45:18

God to give him New England. He would pray before his sermons, Lord, give me New England, oh

45:23

Lord, oh Lord, he would beat his chest and he would pray to God to give him New England. Because even in the 1700s, the 1720s and 30s, he could see that the culture was going away, that the

45:35

Church was going away, and he was contending to recover the Gospel. I mean, even in his own day,

45:41

I mean, Church attendance was at an all -time low, liberalism was starting to creep in, the Gospel was being lost, people were getting lost in their own waywardness, and he was pleading with God to give him

45:52

New England. And so, sort of on the heels of that, there's a lot of pastors,

45:57

I'm not the only one, there are a lot of faithful pastors who are hiding out in small towns and in their own churches, and they're praying for the same thing.

46:05

They're praying, Lord, give me New England. You know, it's a desire that God would return the

46:11

Gospel, that he would do a work up here and revive this region, revive the churches. So I think that's the plea of every

46:18

New England pastor who loves the Gospel, who loves the Lord and loves his Word, is to have

46:23

God give us back this region, give us back this land. Yes, in fact, the second chapter is titled,

46:33

Giving God His Pulpits Back. That seems like a very optimistic thought.

46:40

Obviously, we must firmly believe in the sovereignty of God and the power of prayer, because taking the pulpits back from those who centuries ago robbed them from the

46:53

Puritans and from those who were biblically -minded and God -centered and God -focused, either they were robbed from them or they were fortunately just given up.

47:06

But the thought of getting those pulpits back seems like a vision that only the most optimistic post -millennialists could ever dream would ever happen.

47:20

Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, a book like this, you know, it certainly is optimistic, because, you know, what choice do we have?

47:27

Either I have hope in God for him to do something, and again, one of the things that has been a sticking point is there is a vast difference between revival and revivalism, and I would encourage your listeners to pick up Ian Murray's book.

47:41

He actually has a book called Revival and Revivalism. Yes, it basically contrasts

47:47

Finney, a false revivalist, with Asahel Middleton, correct?

47:55

Yeah, that's part of the book for sure. He does go farther back even into the Puritans, but he makes a really keen point, and I quote it generously from him because all of his points are so good, but there's a huge distinction, and what

48:07

I'm calling for, what I'm pleading for, is not revivalism. It's not some kind of a man -made zeal that's going to just sort of rise up and cause things to happen.

48:17

This is an attempt to recover faithfulness in hopes that the

48:23

Lord is going to move. We're going to ask, we're going to pray, we're going to try to bear the fruits of repentance and bear the fruits of godliness, but in the end, the only way that anything is going to happen in the hearts of people is if God moves.

48:35

And so revival, true revival, when the Puritans would see a work of God, they would behold it and they would say, wow, this must be revival because God is working, instead of Finney's approach saying, oh, there are certain tactics that I can create revival.

48:50

No, we need to be asking the Lord to do what He's going to do, and if all of us ministers up here die and things don't happen, as long as we're faithful, what else can we do?

49:01

I mean, there are pastors who are leaving the region because it's difficult, or they're being driven out, and as long as we're given the blessing of having a pulpit to preach in, let's preach for it, let's go for it.

49:12

Why not? I mean, it's on the Lord to do it, and that's why I really believe that if God were to move up here, and I'm starting to see, even just in the last couple of years, things are starting to change,

49:23

I think, in small pockets, but if God were to move, and let's just say that an awakening kind of a thing in the pulpits, in the churches were to happen, because of the contrast of the deadness of this region, the rest of the nation would look up.

49:38

I mean, the Bible would look and say, what is going on up there? So again, I think that because of where we are, we're in the perfect position to return and become faithful to God again, because the whole country knows that it's bad up here.

49:53

So I'm optimistic, but why not chase faithfulness and chase godliness, and obey the

50:01

Lord in a way that has never been done in this generation, and honor the

50:06

Lord, dare to honor the Lord? I don't see why we wouldn't try to do that. And on the probability of returning the pulpits,

50:13

I mean, we planted a church, and so I didn't have to fight for anything, I just, we planted in the church,

50:18

I was able to preach the gospel and preach the Bible, and there's no issue, but I know other pastors who are in revitalization efforts, who are taking over churches that are dying, and the churches are so desperate to have somebody in the pulpit, they don't care who it is, and so a

50:35

Bible expositor will come in, stand up, and say, thus says the Lord, and preach the scriptures, and the several pastors who have gone in, and they've taken over once -liberal churches, and are preaching faithfully the

50:49

Word of God. So again, I don't think it's a wide -scale thing, but I know faithful pastors who are preaching the gospel in pulpits that have not had a gospel presence in 100 years.

51:00

So it is happening, and it's an amazing thing to see happen. Yeah, in fact, as you may be aware, there is a denomination that came out largely of pastors leaving the

51:15

United Church of Christ, UCC, the most liberal of the so -called

51:21

Christian denominations. I would think it'd be the most liberal, unless you want to count

51:26

Unitarian Universalists, but the Four C's denomination, which are the conservative

51:35

Bible -believing Congregationalists, was formed, I think, largely because of men leaving the

51:42

UCC. So you have a whole denomination of people returning, and sometimes returning the very congregations that were steeped in liberalism, but had a rich heritage and deep roots of Puritanism, having those congregations returned to their rightful place in a

52:03

God -honoring theological system with the Savoy Declaration, and so on.

52:09

That's also a joy to see. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, as I've written the book,

52:16

I do get letters and emails from people, and I've been hearing stories. I've been trying to meet pastors up here and, you know, be encouraged by them and try to be a blessing to them as well, but a lot of us are talking, and I keep on hearing stories about God moving in just amazing ways, things that are just beyond belief.

52:35

I know of a church that's a little bit south of me. They were a Universalist or Unitarian Church, a little liberal church.

52:42

They lost their pastor, and they all sat around and looked at each other and said, what do we do now? Well, if someone had the idea, well, let's just look in the

52:48

Bible and see what the Bible says about this, because we don't have any clue. So the whole church started to read their

52:53

Bible, realized that everything that they were taught and believed was wrong, and sought out to go and find them a

53:01

Bible teacher. They specifically wanted an expositor who was going to come to their church and teach them the Word of God, and so this church for the last 12 months or so has been on a search for a

53:10

Bible teacher to come into a formerly liberal church and teach them what the Word of God says. I have never heard of that before anywhere else.

53:17

Never heard of that. Wow. And by the way, these four C's, in case some of our listeners are wondering what that means, that's the

53:23

Conservative Congregational Christian Conference, and if you want to find out more about them, their website is cccusa .com.

53:34

cccusa .com. We're going to be going to a break right now, and we'll be taking some of your questions. We have a lot of people waiting to have their questions asked now, and if you want to join them, if we have time to take your question as well, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

53:47

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Nate Pikowitz in Reviving New England.

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We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Welcome back.

01:02:08

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour to go is

01:02:14

Nate Pickowitz, pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gillington, Ironworks, New Hampshire, writer for Intruding Favor and Servants of Grace, and author of a number of books, including

01:02:25

Reviving New England, The Key to Revitalizing Post -Christian America, which is our topic today.

01:02:32

If you have questions for our guest, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:02:39

Before I return to my discussion with Nate Pickowitz, I have some important announcements. One of the conferences coming up features our guest

01:02:47

Nate Pickowitz as a speaker, and this is the aforementioned Fellowship Conference New England, which is going to be held

01:02:55

August 3rd through the 5th at Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine.

01:03:01

And other than our guest today, Nate Pickowitz, the other speakers include Pastor Don Curran of Don Curran Ministries, and also of HeartCry Missionary Society, the organization founded by Paul Washer, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who is an author and pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and Pastor Jesse Barrington, the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

01:03:25

If you'd like to register for the Fellowship Conference New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

01:03:32

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, and we hope that you can make it to that conference no matter where you live.

01:03:40

And God willing, I will be there as well. I intend to be there and hope to be there. So I look forward to meeting you in person if you happen to be able to get there by God's grace.

01:03:52

It would be a joy to fellowship with many of the Iron Trip and Zion listeners out there.

01:03:58

Many that I have not yet met and many that I hope to meet for the first time. It's been such a pleasure going to these different Bible conferences and meeting so many of you that already listen to the show, and then meeting others of you who had never heard of the show and are excited to start listening.

01:04:16

So hopefully that will happen at the Fellowship Conference New England, August 3rd through the 5th at the

01:04:24

Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. Again, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

01:04:32

that's fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. After that, coming up in November from the 17th through the 18th, the

01:04:41

Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology is being held in Quakertown, Pennsylvania at the

01:04:47

Grace Bible Fellowship Church. Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

01:04:56

The theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe, a line from the classic Reformation hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.

01:05:06

And if you would like to join me at that conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

01:05:13

click on Events, and then click on Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology.

01:05:19

There's also quite a number of other events that the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals are hosting other than this specific conference.

01:05:27

But this happens to be the one that I, God willing, am attending and having an exhibitor's booth where I will be manning that booth during the two days of the conference.

01:05:37

That's November 17th through the 18th in Quakertown, Pennsylvania. Alliancenet .org, click on Events, then click on Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology.

01:05:46

And then last but not least, January 18th through the 20th, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia.

01:05:54

And the theme is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. Speakers include,

01:06:00

God willing, Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, H .P. Charles, Jr., Tim Chalies, Josh Bice, my dear friend of many years,

01:06:08

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Krueger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

01:06:19

If you would like to register for the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com,

01:06:27

and then click on G3 2018, and you can register there. And please, if you attend, please make it a point to greet me at the

01:06:36

Iron Sharpens Iron Exhibitor's Booth, which I intend to have there again at the G3 Conference.

01:06:43

Now I have to do something that I'm not comfortable doing, and that's asking you for money. My advertisers have urged me over the last several months, for the first time in the history of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, to make public appeals for donations and advertisers.

01:06:59

If you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to give to your local church, as you have always been giving, and above and beyond your ability to provide for your family, then

01:07:11

I would love to receive a gift of any amount that you care to give to help Iron Sharpens Iron Radio remain on the air.

01:07:19

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click on support, and there will be an address where you can make a check for any amount, where you can mail it to.

01:07:28

The address will be there, and you can make out the check of any amount to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:07:34

And if you would like to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:07:42

and put advertising in the subject line. And remember, please never, never, ever, ever siphon money out of the regular giving to your local church that you are accustomed to.

01:07:55

Never take food off of your family's dinner table if you're struggling to make ends meet. But if you are blessed above and beyond those things, then

01:08:02

I will very eagerly receive any gift that you have to give. The Lord commands that you provide for your church and your family.

01:08:11

He does not command that you support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. But if you can, without disturbing the giving to either your church or your home, if you can give to us, we would really appreciate it.

01:08:24

And our prayers are extended to you. My personal gratitude is extended toward you.

01:08:32

And very inadequately, I cannot come up with the words in the English language to thank all of you who have already been giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and some of you multiple times.

01:08:43

But I am praying that God blesses you in return in a very powerful and meaningful way.

01:08:49

We are now returning to our subject at hand, which is reviving New England, the key to revitalizing post -Christian

01:08:56

America, with our guest, Nate Pickowitz, pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Iron Works, New Hampshire.

01:09:03

And Nate, before we take the listener questions, I think it might be wise for you to contrast something that you mentioned earlier, and that would be a contrast between revival and revivalism.

01:09:16

When I was just at the Foundations Conference in New York City, the conference run by Sermon Audio, one of the highlights there was a remarkable young preacher named

01:09:32

Armin Tomassian. Armin Tomassian is a young man with extraordinary gifts.

01:09:38

And I tell my listeners, you heard it here first, that over the next 10 years, Armin Tomassian is going to be a globally known figure, especially amongst

01:09:48

Reformed Christians who care about what the Bible teaches and who love powerful preaching. This young man transported me back into time,

01:09:57

I think, during the Puritan era, listening to him preach. And if any of you, by the way, are looking for an excellent speaker for your own church or some kind of a parachurch organization that you're running, if you want to have a conference of some kind,

01:10:14

Armin Tomassian of Calgary Free Presbyterian Church in Canada is an excellent choice.

01:10:24

I heartily recommend him, and you can contact me for any information about him. But during that conference, he had brought up the fact that there are churches that will say, we are having revival tonight.

01:10:39

They think that they can manufacture on their own a meeting that would be adequately or correctly described as a revival.

01:10:50

And this is not something that man can manufacture, is it? No, it's not.

01:10:56

And I'm always kind of surprised when I hear about scheduled revivals. And there's even,

01:11:02

I get a flyer every year for a local revival in my area, and it comes in the mail, and I look at it, and they offer all kinds of things that they're expecting to happen.

01:11:13

And frankly, it baffles me. I understand why they do it, I understand the heritage of it, but it just, it doesn't make any sense.

01:11:21

Because if you understand that God is the one, that the Spirit of God is the one who regenerates, who seals us, he's the one who is striving with us.

01:11:30

I mean, in Galatians chapter 3, Paul specifically says, are you so foolish that you would, the work that's begun in you and the

01:11:37

Spirit, that you continue in the flesh? And it just seems to me like it's a flesh -born thing to try to manufacture something that's happening.

01:11:46

But beyond simply going to an event and experiencing, quote, revival, true revival is a revival of the heart.

01:11:54

It results in the fruit of the Spirit, which is things like patience and love and obedience and faithfulness and steadfastness, and all these things that characterize the

01:12:02

Christian life. If there was really revival happening, repentance would be on the rise. If revival was really happening, people would be turning over their lives to God on a regular basis, not just when they show up to church on Sunday or on some other day.

01:12:15

So if we want true revival, I believe it really does happen when we are abiding in Christ and we're obeying the

01:12:22

Lord and his commands to be sanctified and to be holy. I don't see how you can have revival any other way than that.

01:12:32

So, yeah, I mean, again, I understand the tradition of it, I understand where it comes from, but I don't,

01:12:38

I think it's man -made. I don't think it's, I don't think it's anything authentic. And, um... Go ahead,

01:12:45

I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was just going to say, aren't some of the marks of a genuine revival where either a church, a community, or even a nation is swept, it seems like miraculously swept, with a wave of repentance, and people returning to, on their knees, to cry out to God for forgiveness in mass, where there is cultural change, there is noticeable change going on that is lasting, that, where the theology is transformed from man -centered to God -centered, where pride and arrogance and apathy are transformed into fiery zeal and hunger for God.

01:13:36

Aren't these some of the marks of a true revival? Like, I've heard about the Welsh revival, when that swept through Wales, at least certain areas of Wales.

01:13:46

The coal mines were filled the next morning with the wheelbarrows, the shovels, the picks, and the other tools that had been stolen previously by the miners.

01:13:58

Because they were repenting of their sin of thievery, and so on. But if you could give a little bit of a better explanation than I just gave.

01:14:06

Well, no, I think that's right. I mean, in Jonathan Edwards' day, he wrote, distinguishing the marks of the work of the

01:14:15

Spirit of God. That was the point. And he based the book off of 1 John, chapter 4, and he specifically goes through and diagnoses,

01:14:23

I believe it's six different markers. But one of them certainly is a desire for biblical truth, a longing for repentance, a faithfulness, a love for the brethren.

01:14:33

I mean, people say that they can love God all day long, 1 John, chapter 1. But if they don't love their brother, then they're walking in darkness, and they're liars.

01:14:42

So we have to manifest true love for the body, we have to manifest a heart of repentance, we have to manifest a desire for the truth.

01:14:49

These are all markers. John MacArthur parroted the same thing. I don't want to say parrot, that's a terrible word, but he talked about the same thing in Strangefire, what is a true work of the

01:14:58

Spirit of God. So these are, you know, this is MacArthur, this is Edwards, but ultimately this is the word of God in 1

01:15:04

John, chapter 4, that talks about marks of true revival. If these things aren't happening, and I have a chapter in my book, the third chapter, is about repentance.

01:15:15

You know, we can't expect things to happen in the culture, in the world, in the churches if we don't start by examining ourselves first, if we don't have a heart that cries out and repents before God.

01:15:26

You know, in Psalm 51, David says, create in me a clean heart, O God, and then he says, and then

01:15:32

I'll teach transgressors their ways. The revival and the teaching and the ministry and all that stuff comes after a heart that is repentant over sin, an acknowledgement that you need to be forgiven, so there's so much that has to take place at the heart level.

01:15:48

So, you know, a repentant person should turn their back on their sin. There should be an acknowledgement of the lordship of Christ.

01:15:56

They should be turning in the things they've stolen, they should be confessing their sins and apologizing to people that they've hurt.

01:16:02

If that's not happening, no amount of sawdust or tents can do it. It has to be a work of God, it has to be in the heart.

01:16:10

So I think all the things that you were talking about are correct, and certainly the word of God has much to say about it.

01:16:16

Well, let's take some of our listener questions. We have a first -time questioner, Alan in Perryville, Arkansas.

01:16:24

He says, I pastor in the Bible Belt, and it seems that usually what happens on the

01:16:30

East Coast eventually finds its way to us. Perhaps we aren't the tundra yet, but it is the direction we seem to be heading.

01:16:38

What I notice is that the Bible seems to be appreciated in many places in the

01:16:45

South, but not prized, wholly trusted, or fully submitted to.

01:16:51

Would you agree that this is a familiar pattern that New England went through? So as we in the

01:16:56

Bible Belt are seemingly headed toward a spiritual climate similar to New England today, do you have any further suggestions for revitalization here?

01:17:05

And that was Pastor Alan in Perryville, Arkansas. Yeah, one pastor

01:17:11

I was talking to a few years ago had said to me, because I was making the comment and making the assumption that, you know, we've fallen off and, you know, things are so much better in other parts of the country, generally speaking, and he says, well, we're not, this is what he told me, we're not behind the rest of the

01:17:27

Church in America, we're actually ahead, where if the Church continues on this trend to apostatize,

01:17:33

New England is their future. And so if things in the Bible Belt, if people don't start preaching genuine gospel, if they don't stop with the tactics and the strategies and the man -made gimmicks, if they don't stop that and return to the

01:17:49

Lord and preach the Word of God and not man -made opinions, if they don't stop a lot of the foolishness that goes on in the churches,

01:17:57

New England is your future. It's just that simple, because that's what we've been through. And so in the book, and this is something

01:18:04

I believe in firmly, it really does begin with the preaching and the teaching. You know, I would encourage any pastor, any preacher, if you're on the fence about what to do, don't be creative, don't be, you know, innovative.

01:18:18

Certainly you can use God's gift to you and your personality, but go back and learn how to teach the

01:18:24

Word of God and trust Him. I mean, expository teaching is an act of trust.

01:18:29

You're looking out of the congregation and you're trusting that what you're going to deliver to them from the

01:18:34

Bible is the Word of God. As foolish as it might seem to the ears of man, you're trusting the

01:18:40

Lord's going to use His Word and He's going to work. And I'll tell you, I've seen it over and over again, where I preach something and I'm thinking, boy, that's going to go over terribly, and people respond, not to me, but to the

01:18:51

Word. And so I really believe the way forward is to return in the same way that Ezra and Nehemiah did, return to the

01:18:58

Word of God in the same way that Martin Luther and John Calvin, all the Reformers did, they returned to the Word of God and said, what does

01:19:04

God have to say about salvation, about the Church? So I believe that's the future. I think we need to stop being so addicted to personality and addicted to trends and addicted to tactics, and simply get back to the simple

01:19:18

Gospel Bible preaching that Christ has used for 20 centuries in His Church.

01:19:25

I think that's the solution, at least at the beginning. There's so much more that flows out of that. But I would say to this brother, if you're pastoring and you're preaching the

01:19:34

Word of God faithfully, keep on preaching faithfully. You know, in the end, faithfulness is where it's at.

01:19:41

It doesn't matter what the numbers look like. It doesn't matter what people say about you. You know, we preach for the glory of God.

01:19:48

We preach to honor Him, so keep on preaching the Word, and if you're struggling to get into that, learn how to preach the

01:19:54

Word. Go look up Stephen Lawson and learn how to preach from Stephen Lawson, and you'll be blessed.

01:20:01

Well, you'll also learn more about your question, or the answers to your question, by the book,

01:20:08

Reviving New England, the Key to Revitalizing Post -Christian America, because you've just won a free copy of it,

01:20:14

Pastor Allen. Please give us your full mailing address there in Arkansas, so that we can have

01:20:20

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship that out to you. CVBBS .com,

01:20:27

who sponsored this program and who ship out all the Bibles and books and DVDs and CDs and other things that our listeners win by submitting questions, so keep your eye open for a return address on the shipping label that says

01:20:43

CVBBS .com, and we thank you, Pastor Allen, for your question today.

01:20:48

We hope to receive many more in the future. We hope you keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and spreading the

01:20:54

Word about the program in Arkansas and beyond, and thanks to Pastor Nate Pikowitz for providing us with these copies of Reviving New England to give away today, and God bless your brother.

01:21:07

We do have another listener from Slovenia. Joe in Slovenia says,

01:21:14

Dear Brother Chris, roughly two years ago, I drove from Georgia North all the way to Canada.

01:21:20

Along the way, I was shocked to see many abandoned and dilapidated church buildings across much of upstate

01:21:27

New York and the North country, including Vermont. There seems to be an emphasis growing, even among some

01:21:35

Reformed churches, to slowly abandon the Gospel in favor of social justice activities.

01:21:41

Please ask Brother Nate, is this a particular problem among churches in New England?

01:21:48

Is social justice the modern -day equivalent to the false doctrine liberalism and materialism which crippled the church of previous generations in New England?

01:21:58

Thanks so much for focusing on New England, the cradle of our Reformed heritage in North America.

01:22:06

Yeah, so for the most part, we're seeing a lot of things going on, and certainly there is, you know, social justice bent.

01:22:13

There is a broad social Gospel in a lot of places where the church exists to provide goods and services for community.

01:22:24

We have a lot of community -based organizations, and again, I'm not decrying the need to help people in the community, but Jesus always had a meal and a message.

01:22:36

Amen. He didn't just provide for their needs without telling them how to get to heaven.

01:22:42

So we have to do the same thing. I mean, for churches to participate in giving out meals and food and services and whatever, that's wonderful.

01:22:50

That's part of our ministry to love people, but if we do it without the

01:22:55

Gospel, if we don't ever tell people why we're doing these things, then we've completely undermined our entire ministry.

01:23:02

And I think that is what's been happening, is that there's a lot of churches up here that are community groups that do a lot of good, and doing good is great.

01:23:10

That's wonderful. But you have to have the Gospel, and I think that's the biggest contention.

01:23:16

And what's happening is that when churches are jettisoning the Gospel, tying these two points together, by the way, but when they jettison the

01:23:23

Gospel, the whole life of the church goes down, and soon, after a couple generations, they close down.

01:23:30

And you do. When you drive to New England, you see all kinds of old, white church buildings that have been shut down.

01:23:36

They're either historical societies, they're museums, they're restaurants, they're bars, they're karate dojos.

01:23:42

You can't put any... There's no believers to stick in these buildings anymore. So we see all of this evidence of a once -faithful people, a once -faithful church that has walked away and favored something other than the

01:23:56

Gospel, and put something else in its place. And I think, again, for the church, we have to start by recovering.

01:24:02

Judgment begins at the house of God. We need to start by recovering the Gospel and returning to faithfulness.

01:24:08

And when you offer love and help and mercy to people, that's wonderful, but make sure that they understand why you're doing it.

01:24:15

Make sure that they understand the Gospel. This is only going to feed you for a short period of time.

01:24:21

Let me show you the living bread. You know, let me show you the living water. There's just so much more than just providing for people's social needs.

01:24:28

So it is a huge problem up here. Well, not a problem, but the jettison of the Gospel is a huge problem, and that's part of the reason why

01:24:36

I'm so adamant about a return to faithfulness, because we need the Gospel back. Yes, and it is a shame that there has been throughout history an either -or attitude with the church.

01:24:49

In other words, the church obviously should be first and foremost about bringing praise, honor, and glory to God and feeding

01:25:01

God's people with the Word and drawing the lost to Christ.

01:25:07

But we are not to abandon the physical needs of people or the social justice that needs to be a part of our message.

01:25:19

It's a tragedy, for instance, that Bible -believing

01:25:25

Christianity in America basically gave away the struggle for civil rights for minorities in this country to the liberals.

01:25:39

The liberals have been known to be champions of that, especially in the 20th century.

01:25:45

You have heroes of the faith like Wilberforce and others who were abolitionists, of course.

01:25:52

But in the 19th century and even the early 20th century, you have the liberals really leading the charge for racial equality, and you have

01:26:05

Roman Catholics leading the charge for the pro -life movement, where Bible -believing

01:26:12

Christians were largely silent for many decades in those areas. And it shouldn't be an either -or.

01:26:20

In fact, the gospel and the Word of God itself should be propelling Bible -believing

01:26:26

Christians and churches to overturn injustice and to do good to those in need, as we read in James's epistle that faith without works is dead.

01:26:43

So doesn't there need to be both things going on there? Absolutely. I mean, if you look at just the impact that the church has had on society over 20 centuries,

01:26:54

I mean, every single case, I mean, we've built hospitals, we've started institutions of higher learning, we have, even just through Geneva, I mean, the missions movement in Geneva was huge, the missions movement here, but we've sent out aid and money and ministry workers and health workers and doctors and hospitals.

01:27:12

So much good has come from believers who love the Lord dearly, who are working out the evidence of their faith by the fruit.

01:27:20

But the thing is, when you try to short -circuit the faith element and say, well,

01:27:25

I can do a bunch of good and I don't have to have the gospel, I can do a bunch of good and not have to have a close relationship with God, then all you're doing is you're just capitulating to moralism.

01:27:34

Anybody can be moral, but not everybody can be spirit -filled and born again. So Bible -believing

01:27:41

Christians, born -again believers, and again, that should be a redundancy, but we have to make that kind of a distinction nowadays.

01:27:48

Those who are truly saved and love Christ, we should be the most joyful of people, we should be the most giving of people, not the other way around.

01:27:56

It shouldn't be that we're having these things dictated to us by those who don't even know Christ. So there does need to be a recovery of that, for sure, but we just can't short -change the need for the gospel.

01:28:09

We have got to preach the Word of God and then also have the hands and feet of Christ and do like James says in chapter two, to take care of people when they have needs, for sure.

01:28:18

Yeah, and that is not to become the message feeding the poor and fighting for racial equality and opposing abortion.

01:28:25

That is not the message. The message is the gospel. The message is that sinners can be saved by a merciful, loving, and gracious Christ and that the only hope for eternal life is through his death, burial, and resurrection.

01:28:40

That is the message, but those who believe in that message should be automatically shining the light of Christ by demonstrating his compassion and mercy upon the world around us.

01:28:53

Amen, amen, that's right. And by the way, Joe in Slovenia, you have also won a free copy of Reviving New England, The Key to Revitalizing Post -Christian

01:29:02

America. So please, oh and we thank you, I should say, for providing for us an

01:29:07

American address where your daughter lives in Georgia, where we can send this book via our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

01:29:19

It is much less expensive for them to ship out books to the United States than it is to have them shipped overseas, so we thank you for the domestic address.

01:29:29

And by the way, I think I forgot to tell Pastor Alan just moments ago in Arkansas, Perryville, not only did you win

01:29:38

Nate Pickowitz's book, Reviving New England, but you also won a free

01:29:44

New American Standard Bible. I don't think I told you that, Pastor Alan, but since you're a first -time questioner, you also won a free

01:29:52

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, which that will be included in the package with Reviving New England.

01:30:00

So keep your eye open for that, and we thank you very much for joining us today for the first time on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

01:30:07

We're going to our final break now, Pastor Nate, and I'm going to,

01:30:14

I already emailed you, I forwarded you an email from our listener in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

01:30:22

Her name is Jenny, and she has three questions that she wants to ask, and they're all good questions, so I emailed them so you could look them over during our station break.

01:30:32

But I'll read you the first of the three now, and then we could have you answer all three when we return.

01:30:39

The contribution from the Congregationalist Jonathan Edwards in New England, among others, are inestimable during the 1700s and 1800s.

01:30:49

However, during this last century, there has been a much decline in interest in Reformed Protestantism.

01:30:54

What factors contributed to the decline of Reformed Protestantism in the past? And of course, we already mentioned some of them before.

01:31:02

We mentioned Universalism and other things. But if you could pick up where we left off when we return from our final break.

01:31:10

And if anybody else wants to join us, now is the time to do it, because we're rapidly running out of time. And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:31:18

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back. Are you a

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01:39:01

Welcome back. This is the conclusion of our two -hour interview today with our guest,

01:39:07

Nate Pikowitz, on the subject of reviving New England, the key to revitalizing post -Christian

01:39:14

America. If you'd like to join us now is the time to do it because we're running out of time rapidly. And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:39:22

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Pastor Nate, as I read to you before the break,

01:39:27

Jenny from Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, says the contribution from the Congregationalist Jonathan Edwards in New England, among others, are inestimable during the 1700s and 1800s.

01:39:39

However, during this last century, there has been much decline in interest in Reformed Protestantism.

01:39:45

What factors contributed to the decline of Reformed Protestantism in the past? Yeah, so there's always kind of been this tension between a view that would be more, we call it monergistic, so a one -way

01:40:02

God -centered and a synergistic view, which would be a two -way in the sense that we are contributing or helping in some way to secure our salvation.

01:40:13

So that's always been in tension, at least as far back as I can think of, even to Augustine.

01:40:19

But in our day and age, Edwards certainly was a Reformed theologian. He was fighting for the doctrines of grace.

01:40:27

It wasn't really, at least in this country, until we start to see Charles Finney preaching revivalism.

01:40:33

Finney himself was ordained as a Presbyterian, but walked away from his confession, walked away from his denomination, and began to teach a more man -centered view of salvation, where you could create the right kinds of means, you could create an environment where someone could respond on their own volition to the

01:40:51

Lord. And so a lot of what we see in terms of the degradation of Reformed theology in the burned -over district, which is upstate

01:40:59

New York, New England, New Jersey, beyond, south, really came under Finney's influence, and it hasn't stopped since.

01:41:07

So that's certainly one aspect of it. But I think at our core, human beings, we're stubborn, we're prideful.

01:41:15

We want to think it's us. When a person comes to faith in Christ, there is a sense in which you say,

01:41:21

I believe. We're encouraged in the scriptures to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. And so I can understand the excitement and the desire to stake your claim and say,

01:41:30

I believe, okay? That's a wonderful thing. That's always the most joyous day in a person's life, and you can declare,

01:41:37

I believe in Christ. But the real question is theologically, yes, you've made a profession, you believe in Christ, but why do you believe in Christ?

01:41:46

And theologically, the Bible, I believe, teaches that it is the Spirit of God who works. God says in Ezekiel, that I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart afresh.

01:41:55

God is the one who's working. He's the one who's reviving dead hearts. But we see the influence of Finney very strongly.

01:42:01

And so I really believe that the key, I'm going to kind of respond to your second question very quickly here, is what do we do to revive

01:42:08

Protestantism, a reformed Protestantism? I believe we just do what the Reformers do and teach the scriptures.

01:42:15

I think we work through the Bible and say, this is what the word of God says. And I believe naturally, the reason that the

01:42:20

Reformers were reformed is because they taught the Bible. I mean, Martin Luther was a Calvinist before Calvin was even a

01:42:27

Christian. You know, so there is a sense in which when you study the scriptures and you look at it, you know, with a very clear view, you see these doctrines leap off the page at you.

01:42:40

So I believe that the way forward is to just teach the scriptures as they are in context.

01:42:47

And if the Lord sees fit to move in a person's heart where they understand the scriptures that way,

01:42:52

I don't know how you can get out of Romans 9 without it. I don't know how to get out of Ephesians chapter one, Ephesians chapter two. I don't know how you get to those texts and say,

01:43:00

I'm the one doing this. I don't understand that. But again, I believe God has to grant that.

01:43:06

And God is the one who's moving in people's understanding in such a way. And with all that said,

01:43:12

I just want to make one last comment that anybody who affirms that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, when you preach the saving gospel, even if the theological underpinnings are different, like Paul says, if Christ is preached, then

01:43:26

I'm going to rejoice. So I want to see the gospel preached, whether that's by an Arminian preacher or a

01:43:32

Calvinist preacher. In the end, we do want the gospel preached. But the question is, how do we understand salvation?

01:43:39

But I'm going to rejoice with anybody who preaches the gospel faithfully. Amen. And going to the last part of the third question that Jenny has, what do you find encouraging and discouraging in these difficult times concerning seminary students willing to pick up the mantle?

01:43:59

Yeah, I mean, ministry is always going to be challenging. I mean, there's discouragement no matter where you are.

01:44:05

You could be in, you know, the heart of a major city and having things going really well. You could be out in the middle of the sticks having a tough time.

01:44:12

There's always going to be discouragement in the ministry. And most of it, I believe, is tied to preachers and pastors being tired, feeling discouraged because, you know, ministry is challenging.

01:44:24

I mean, people have problems. Our own hearts are sinful. I mean, my heart is terribly sinful, if I'm honest with myself.

01:44:30

And so that is always going to be a discouragement. But in ministry, I find it's encouraging to meet like -minded brothers that were pastors who are preaching the gospel, who are committed to teaching the

01:44:41

Word of God. I just met with a pastor today for lunch, a pastor down in Jaffray, a man named

01:44:46

Jordan Moody, who was pastoring down there. And we were able to sit and talk to each other and encourage each other in the faith.

01:44:53

And I think when, you know, when believers gather together and you're able to have a common love for Christ and a common reverence for the

01:45:01

Word of God, I think that brings incredible unity. So I think that part of the problem is that we get so set on isolating ourselves.

01:45:11

And when I'm by myself for long periods of time in ministry, I get discouraged. When I'm sharpened by other people, then

01:45:18

I get encouraged. And so I think that's certainly a way forward. Darrell Bock Well, thank you,

01:45:23

Jenny and Ben Salem, Pennsylvania. And you have won a free copy of the book we have been discussing,

01:45:29

Reviving New England, The Key to Revitalizing Post -Christian America. So please make sure we have your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com

01:45:39

can ship that out to you at no cost to you or to Iron Trump and Zion Radio. And again, we thank

01:45:45

Pastor Nate Pickowitz for providing copies of his book today. We have

01:45:51

RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, I have heard that it is very difficult for outspoken evangelical

01:46:01

Christians to adopt in Massachusetts. In fact, pastors I have heard have even the worst time because of the liberalism, or should

01:46:10

I say the leftist totalitarianism that seems to have taken over the culture in Massachusetts.

01:46:18

Has this been as bad in New Hampshire? And do you see any light at the end of the tunnel for things like this being reversed?

01:46:27

Yeah, that's a great question. Sadly, I'm not really as familiar with a lot of the legislation and adoption practices.

01:46:34

I know that it's difficult in a lot of states. But I mean, Massachusetts, as wonderful as that state is,

01:46:40

Massachusetts is one of the more liberal states in New England. And I mean, even when you look at it on a governmental level, a national level, a lot of the more liberal senators and politicians are from the

01:46:55

Northeast and certainly from Massachusetts. They generally speaking don't have much love for Christianity on a governmental level.

01:47:04

Other states at least sort of have an affinity and realize that there's value in having churches and churches there.

01:47:10

But Massachusetts has been more difficult, certainly. So I'm not surprised to hear that.

01:47:18

We do have a lot of friends and family who have adopted and have their own different challenges. But again, this is what happens, you know, when the church turns away from God and the culture turns away and doesn't embrace at least the common grace of God that is available through the preaching of the

01:47:36

Word of God in the churches. When the church loses its light, everything else around it goes dark. So that's what happened.

01:47:43

I mean, if we had vibrant Christian witnesses more so in Massachusetts, I think things would be slightly different.

01:47:50

There would be more members of churches in legislative bodies. And I think there's just a dearth of them.

01:47:56

There's not as many. But I'm encouraged to hear that there are more church plants happening in Boston.

01:48:02

You know, I am starting to meet a lot of faithful pastors and churches that are springing up.

01:48:08

And our good friend Mike Abendroth is just outside Boston. So, you know, whenever I start to get a little bit downtrodden about Massachusetts, I think about Brother Mike.

01:48:18

Yeah, you know. And I think also of my friend Mark Lukens, who sponsors this program.

01:48:24

Providence Baptist Church there in Massachusetts has been a good friend of Iron Sharpens Iron for quite a long time.

01:48:33

And so, in fact, I hope that he can come to the Fellowship Conference New England.

01:48:39

And his son, Stephen, is also on fire for the doctrines of grace as well. Amen. I'd love to meet him.

01:48:46

Well, thank you, RJ. You have also won a free copy of the book, Reviving New England, The Key to Revitalizing Post -Christian

01:48:54

America. And please make sure that we have your full mailing address so that can be shipped out to you.

01:49:00

Compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com. And we have

01:49:06

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, don't you think it would be a good approach if we who are in conservative

01:49:15

Bible -believing evangelical and reformed churches, if we begin to make more of a vested effort to reach out to liberal mainline pastors, no matter how repulsive their theology and teaching may be in an effort to evangelize with the biblical gospel, we seem to very often look at these people, both men and women in these liberal pulpits, as impossible projects that will never come to Christ, and we forget the wickedness out of which we were saved ourselves.

01:49:53

Don't you think this might be a good approach to take? Yeah, actually,

01:49:58

I think it's a wonderful point. You know, I've made friends with some pastors who

01:50:05

I don't see eye -to -eye with biblically. I've met some pastors who have told me to my face that they don't want to preach the gospel, they refuse to preach the gospel if there's some other way, and I think that it's possible to still have some sort of amiable friendship and you can still pray for them and try to be an encouragement in some way, but I think it's important to recognize that the mission that we're doing is going to be markedly different.

01:50:31

You know, we're not going to, as a church, get in and do ministry with them, but I think you can still, you know, be a blessing to them, pray for them, you know, certainly find ways to bring the gospel to them.

01:50:44

I mean, my heart is, I recognize that there's not going to be as many pastors and churches in New England that think the way that I do about what the

01:50:52

Bible says, and certainly with the sentiments in my book, but I'm praying for them. I'm hoping that they, if they're deceived and they're not saved, that they would get saved, that they would come to the knowledge of salvation and that they would turn things around, or if they're just discouraged and weak and they're afraid of preaching the gospel because they're afraid of what the church might do, that they would turn around and they'd become bold and they would preach the

01:51:14

Word of God and trust Him. So, you know, I don't believe that any sinner is beyond salvation, and I don't think we need to treat them as second -class citizens, but I think it is important to note that we can't be ecumenical and say, well, you know, they don't have the gospel, so therefore we can go and be in ministry with them.

01:51:33

I think you have to make a noticeable, there's a demarcation there, there's a different ministry going on, but yeah,

01:51:42

I mean, they're part of the mission, too. I think we need to love them and care for them in any way we can, but be faithful to the

01:51:49

Lord and never, never not preach the gospel to spread the feelings. Right, and I don't even think our guest was intending to imply that we have

01:51:59

Christian fellowship with these people, but I think it's an excellent idea that we start having more zealous efforts to reach out to them with love, because they are in the mission field, and if they become saved, all these lost people that they have in their own congregations who may have an open ear by God's grace and mercy to what they have to say after their rebirth and so on.

01:52:25

And in fact, look at Abraham Kuyper, one of the heroes of the Reformed faith. He became a born -again

01:52:31

Christian while a pastor. He was already a pastor, and a member of his church, an elderly lady, rebuked him and challenged him and gave him the gospel in love, and he converted.

01:52:45

Amen. That's awesome. And by the way, B .B., you have also won a free copy of the book that we are discussing,

01:52:54

Reviving New England, The Key to Revitalizing Post -Christian America. Please make sure we have your full mailing address.

01:53:00

And now we have a question from a mutual friend of both of ours, Pastor Mack Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

01:53:08

What three books would you most recommend for readers newly interested in revival?

01:53:14

And I can't help but chuckle because who would ask a question like that other than Mack Tomlinson, or should

01:53:20

I say more than Mack Tomlinson, a man who lives and breathes good Christian books?

01:53:26

But if you could answer Mack's question. Yeah, well,

01:53:32

I've already alluded to one of them, but I think it bears mentioning again. Ian Murray has written actually two books that were very helpful.

01:53:40

One is called Revival and Revivalism. That's a wonderful book. And there's another book he wrote on revival called

01:53:46

Pentecost Today, and it's a question mark, and he discusses a case for biblical revival.

01:53:52

And I would say another more kind of older work is, you know, go back and read Edwards. I think reading, there's actually a

01:54:00

Banner of Truth edition of Edwards on revival. That's also very good.

01:54:05

The Distinguishing Marks of the Work of the Spirit of God. You know, these are all biblically based, you know, just Bible -centric, you know, expositions of what revival is.

01:54:17

And it's interesting to note that Jonathan Edwards, when he was diagnosing what was going on, because the accusation came, well, everything that's going on in your town is just fake.

01:54:26

It's all emotionalism. Well, Edwards studied it for a few months before giving his answer and really wanted to see, okay, are these people really changing?

01:54:34

Is this really making a difference in their life day to day, or is this just emotion? And when he sat down to pen his response, he was able to say, no, based on what

01:54:43

I've witnessed in these people, they're different people. They're changed. This must be revival. So the work of Edwards is always good.

01:54:50

But for modern day, I mean, Ian Murray, it's certainly a passion of his to write on this topic.

01:54:56

So I know those are books that our brother Mac has already read and probably has them memorized.

01:55:02

But for our listening audience, it's a fantastic book to read. Amen. And let's not forget

01:55:08

The Puritan Hope by Ian Murray. Yes. Excellent book.

01:55:14

And thanks, Pastor Mac. And I look forward to interviewing you also again in the near future on Iron Trump and Zion Radio to further promote the

01:55:23

Fellowship Conference New England coming up this August 3rd through the 5th. Thank you for contributing the excellent question to our program,

01:55:31

Pastor Mac, and keep praying for my brother John and keep reaching out to him with the love of Christ.

01:55:37

And hopefully one of these days soon, his heart will be broken by the Lord and he will accept your invitation to lunch and even more so will bend his knee to Christ in repentance.

01:55:49

I'd like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, Pastor Nate, before we run out of time.

01:55:58

Yeah, if I could summarize just one thing, I think it would just be to quote scripture and say, preach the word in season and out of season.

01:56:08

I'll be ready to reprove, rebuke, exhort with complete patience and teaching. So I think that's really our call as pastors and preachers.

01:56:16

It's simply to preach the word of God. It's the word of God. It's living and active, sharper than any two -edged sword.

01:56:22

I think if anything's going to happen in any church, in any pulpit, in any nation, it's going to be when the word of God is preached and when his voice is clearly heard.

01:56:31

And so if nothing else ever comes from anything I've ever done or written, I would want it to be that people should preach the word and let

01:56:39

God be God. So preach the word of God. Amen. And one quick question

01:56:46

I think we have time for. Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island. Do you think it's a good idea when evangelical congregations do not have their own buildings to seek out the liberal mainline churches to rent their facilities and form friendships with the pastors and those in leadership there that some breakthrough might be made for the gospel?

01:57:09

Yeah, I think it's happening in a lot of cases. I think entering into some of those relationships, again, making sure that the mission is very clear, that you cannot deviate from your mission of preaching the gospel and winning people to Christ and making disciples.

01:57:27

I think that needs to be happening. But I think in a lot of cases, I know tons and tons of churches that are using facilities and buildings they're renting from all over the place to just try to get in.

01:57:39

And I think it can be a viable thing, but I think every church needs to make the decision on their own, and they need to make sure that there's no possibility of mission drift, of getting away from the gospel.

01:57:51

I think every leadership team needs to make that decision for themselves, and every church has to do what they think is right before God.

01:57:58

Yeah, I know that some people almost have a superstitious attitude towards the building, and they do not want to have their worship services in a building that's typically used by an apostate or liberal church.

01:58:11

But I think that you could stretch that too far. I mean, a building is a building, as long as you are not having any kind of open ecumenical relationships with these people.

01:58:22

I think that the best building that you could get for the right price, as long as it's not overtly something that's going to bring reproach upon the body of Christ, I think that's fine.

01:58:34

But I want to make sure everybody has your contact information, Pastor Nate. I know that your church website is

01:58:41

HarvestBibleGilmanton .org, HarvestBibleGilmanton, G -I -L -M -A -N -T -O -N dot org.

01:58:49

Any other contact information you care to give? Yeah, I mean, I'm on Twitter. I mean, you can follow me on Twitter at Nate Pickowitz.

01:58:58

It's always good to connect on there. And I also have a public ministry page on Facebook.

01:59:04

It's Nate Pickowitz. You can just find that on Facebook. I'm there, so they can find me anywhere, really, online.

01:59:12

So, yeah. Great, and don't forget about the Fellowship Conference New England coming up August 3rd through the 5th, where Nate and other speakers will be on the roster.

01:59:23

And that website is FellowshipConferenceNewEngland .com, FellowshipConferenceNewEngland .com. Thank you so much,

01:59:29

Pastor Nate. And if you could hang on the line, I want to schedule you for an interview on your book,

01:59:34

Why We're Protestants. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate it. Thank you. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater