Episode 32: A Change of Heart

To the Ruled Church podcast. This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased. He is honored, and I get the glory. And by the way, it's even better, because you see that building in Perryville, Arkansas?

You see that one in Pechote, Mexico? Do you see that one in Tuxla, Guterres, down there in Chiapas? That building has my son's name on it. The church is not a democracy, it's a monarchy. Christ is king.

You can't be Christian without a local church.

You can't do anything better than to bend your knee and bow your heart, turn from your sin and repentance, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and join up with a good Bible-believing church, and spend your life serving Jesus in a local, visible congregation.

Christmas Music and the Countdown to the Conference

299.

299.

Days till Christmas.

Oh, days till Christmas.

By the time people listen to this,.

They won't be, it'll be even less than that, but here we are, March 1st. We are, the first threshold of getting excited about Christmas is getting under that 300 mark.

Are you ready?

Yeah, Sunday morning, I was driving to church, and I just put on a Sovereign Grace, you know, just a playlist, listening to music on my way into church, and one of the songs I played was one of the Christmas songs and I was like, it's February, and I'm listening to a Christmas song.

Yeah, I usually try to wait till March before I start listening to Christmas music. You don't want to be too early. That'd be radical, so March onward. Welcome to the Rural Church Podcast, episode 32.

I'm Allen Nelson, pastor of Perryville Second Baptist Church, in Perryville, Arkansas. With me is my friend and brother in the Lord and co-labor in the ministry, Eddie Ragsdale. Say hello, Eddie.

Hey, hello, everyone.

It's a good day, might be a stormy, actually, they kind of backed off the storms a little bit.

Yeah, I think it's supposed to be stormy tomorrow, maybe a little bit more tomorrow.

Yeah, March, as they say, in like a lion, so we're getting ready in real time. Of course, it's already over by the time people listen to this. We're getting ready in real time for the conference to be this weekend.

Looking forward to that. But today, on today's episode, we're going to talk about a change of heart, understanding regeneration and why it matters. Why are we talking about that, Eddie?

Well, because there's this guy that likes to write books.

Why Write Books and Podcasts for the Church

Well, we got to, the process is just about complete now. Free Grace Press is publishing this book, A Change of Heart. It's my third book, my second with Free Grace Press. One, I ended up self-publishing.

That was a lot of fun, actually, but a little bit different take there. But yeah, A Change of Heart, The Doctrine of Regeneration. So we thought we would do an episode of Eddie and I talking about it.

Eddie read it probably, was it almost two years ago?

Yeah, it's been about two years ago. I think it was the summer of 21, I guess, when you sent it to me when I remember reading it. Yeah, yeah. So, hey, let me jump in here. I want to ask you, and I want to talk about the book, but I do want to ask you a couple of quick questions about authorship in general.

So, and I don't know if we've had this conversation before, I may be having a little bit of deja vu, but kind of talk a little bit about your process in, now that you've written three books, at this point, would you say you've kind of got a process of how you go from idea to finished product?

Well, this latest book was different than the first two. The first one was, you know, From Death to Life, How Salvation Works. And it was really just something on my heart about laying out the ordo salutis, as it were, for the lay person, you know?

And that was because someone asked me one time, and it's like, I hear you saying, you know, you don't get saved by praying a prayer. Well, how does it work then? And that made me realize I hadn't been teaching well positively on it.

So I wrote a blog post and it was really long. And then I was like, you know what? I think these are good chapter headings. So I kind of went that route. The second book was from a sermon I was asked to preach on the holiness of God.

And I was just, all my study and time and the preaching of that sermon, I was just like, there's so much here. And that turned into a book.

But this book, let me stop you right there. Did you, because I remember I was at the conference where you preached that sermon that became the second book. Did you later teach through that as a series?

Did you take what was in that sermon and make it a teaching series or a sermon series before it became a book?

Yes.

And so maybe I'm getting the process down, but what happened with this one is it was COVID and Wednesday nights we weren't meeting. And so I was like, you know what? I'd like to teach on a doctrine. I was like, how about the doctrine of regeneration?

And almost immediately as I began working on the series, I was like, you know what? I'm going to turn this into a book, which made it a little bit easier on the front end to be like, okay, here's some things to think through.

And so as I was getting ready for that Wednesday night series, I was also in my mind thinking these will be good chapters for a book. And so I taught, but because at the end of the day, the reason I wrote the book is because we really don't understand this doctrine, number one.

I'm talking about evangelicalism as a whole. And number two, it's so important to so many things.

You know, along that same line, a question that comes to mind, and I guess this is a question kind of for both of us, because it's not just about writing books, but here we are publishing a podcast. You know, I write a blog each week.

I know that you've written prolifically on many blogs. And so someone might say, there's so much content out there. Why do we need to add to it? Why do we need to add to it? I mean, there's more books, there's more good books, there's more good podcasts, there's more good content, both that person can listen to and read than any person could ever, could listen to and read.

So why do we continue to add to it?

Stewarding Gifts and Using Technology for the Church

Yeah.

What do you think?

And even Ecclesiastes says of making many books, there is no end and much study is a weariness of the flesh. So I think there's some wisdom there and even the question that you asked, there's some wisdom.

And I think the answer is this. If you are writing or podcasting to build a platform, that's problematic. But if you are just trying to steward well, the influence that you have and use the technology, like for example, you write your blog by and large, so your church folks will read it.

My blog is 100 for Marshall First Baptist Church. I mean, I know a few other people, I don't know how many people even read it, maybe five people, but I know some people in my church read it and that's why I write it, the complete reason why I write it.

And the reason that we do this podcast is kind of twofold. One, when we weren't podcasting, man, there might be a couple of weeks go by, a few weeks go by, we didn't even talk to each other.

Yeah, yeah, that's the, for you and I, if nobody listens to this, we still get the benefit of the conversation.

I know Michelle Leslie listens to it, so shout out to her. She was really encouraged by a couple of our episodes, one on the prayer meetings for sure. And then, oh yeah, then the one on the conferences.

So that was encouraging. But the other thing is we also, like I send this to our church folks or encourage people to listen, like it's just another opportunity and to use technology. Like in the history of Christianity, Christians have used technology well for, and technology can be evil, but also, well, it can't be evil, but it can be used for evil, but they've used it well for the furtherance of the message of Christ.

And so that's what we try to do. I think there are some wrong motivations for doing these things. But when it comes down to writing books, I think that what I came down to is, for my church family and for my children, and perhaps for their children, I want people to know what the truth is.

And so when you put something down in writing, it stays there longer. But I think it's important. I think God communicated in writing. And so Christians are writers and readers. You know, we love to do that.

It doesn't take away from what Solomon says about, you know, don't be weird, you know, that you can just try to crank out books just to do it, but you can also try to be a help. And that's what I'm trying to do.

People often say to me, I'm just giving you feedback. People often say to me about the books, oh man, how do you write so easy to understand? You know, like, number one, I'm an Arkansan, right? So, and number two, I pastor in the rural church, you know?

And let me just tell you, I'm not saying rural church folks are dumb. I'm not saying that at all. But what I'm saying is, we like to, the folks in our churches like to hear things plainly taught. And that's what I try to do in the books.

In the preaching, hopefully, and in writing.

And, you know, I think along that same line, there's an advantage to the fact that you might could go find a book, you know, written by, you know, Paul Washer or somebody on the same subject that an individual that you know personally, you could hand them that book and they're not gonna read it.

Whereas you hand them a book you wrote and it's gonna be like, I feel like I need to read this because Alan wrote it.

That's right, even people in my town, you know?

Right.

Yeah, that's a good word. And not that I wouldn't, maybe even a part of me be like, I'd rather you read the Paul Washer book, you know? But this will maybe get you in and then maybe it'll actually interest you in reading, you know?

Yeah.

So, and it is, I think it, especially for you, if the Lord has given us a talent, a skill, an ability for something, we ought to be stewarding it well, like you were saying. And, you know, you even think about Matthew chapter five, Jesus talks about, you know, not letting your light shine, you know, hiding it under a bushel.

In a way, if a person has a particular way that God has gifted them, not everybody has the skill to be an author. But if you do, then use it for the Lord. In the same way that we would say, you know, I was teaching on evangelism yesterday and we were talking about the work of an evangelist being actually to equip others to share the gospel.

And if you're skilled at that, if the Lord has made you especially skilled at equipping other people to share the gospel, then you ought to be about that work. Whatever the Lord has given us to do, we ought to be using that well for Him.

The Difference Between From Death to Life and A Change of Heart

So now kind of moving to thinking about this book, A Change of Heart. On the surface, this is my first thought that leads to a question. On the surface, a person might remember your first book, From Death to Life, How Salvation Works.

And then they might look at this one and say, A Change of Heart about regeneration and say, so what's the difference?

Yeah, very good. I think that's an excellent question. And you know where I got the title, A Change of Heart, was from a chapter in From Death to Life. And that's because hopefully it signals to some readers that this is taking that chapter and expanding it.

And so now instead of one chapter, basically I dealt with one main chapter on regeneration in From Death to Life. And what I'm doing in this book is a whole book, you know, 60 ,000 words. The all of From Death to Life was about 40 ,000 words.

This book's about 60 ,000 words just on the doctrine of regeneration. And so exploring, it's a deep dive in this chapter on the necessity of regeneration and what it looks like. And so I think these books are great companions.

Actually, I think that, you know, if someone were to read From Death to Life, I'm like, man, I wanna study more about regeneration. This'd be good. And maybe I could do that with almost every chapter, you know, justification and sanctification, all those things.

But this is what's literally on my heart, you know, and what I want people to understand. Because I think this is the key. As James White says, this is the dividing line of what separates Christianity in many ways of monergism or synergism, you know, what is regeneration and how does it happen and why does it matter?

And I could have spent a lot more than I did. In fact, I did, it was over 100 ,000 words, but then you get into editing process and they're like, well, cut out, because I had some sermons at the end. You know, I don't know if you got that manuscript or not, but I had some sermons at the end of like Spurgeon.

So I cut that out. And then it was down to like 80 ,000 words. And then it was like, well, cut this out, cut this out, take this chapter out. So now it's, now the final product is into about 60 ,000 words.

Oh, wow. Oh, wow. So what is, if you were gonna put the book into, like, I'm not trying to get you to, you know, tell somebody this is the book, so you don't need to buy it or read it, of course. But if you wanted to put it into a thesis to encourage somebody to read the book, I mean, we've already talked about it.

It's about regeneration, but what's the main thesis about regeneration that you're wanting the reader to walk away with, thinking about from the book?

Really, really, what is a Christian? You know, first of all, because we dive into John 3, 3, Jesus, you know, answers that to Nicodemus, you must be born again. A Christian is someone who has been transformed, who has been given a new heart.

And of course, that only pushes the question back a little further. What does it mean to have a new heart? And so what we do is we, you know, through biblical exploration, you know, looking at the doctrine of regeneration, looking at, you know, careful exegesis, even a brief survey of church history, looking at how one understands Jesus's words regarding the necessity of the new birth really matters.

And then how it's impossible to separate the doctrine of regeneration from the other great truths of the Christian faith. So how we understand regeneration affects how we understand the Bible and the Holy Spirit and evangelism and the local church, and even the ordinances of baptism and the Lord's Supper.

They're all tied closely to one's understanding of regeneration. And so really the idea, if I've answered your question, is what is a Christian? Christian is someone who's had a change of heart. Okay, what is that then?

Why do we need it? How does it happen? And then why does it matter? In a nutshell.

Who Should Read a Book on Regeneration?

Right, right. So what is kind of the audience? Would you be saying this is a good book to hand to a new Christian? Or even, would you say this, that you think this is a good book to hand to a unconverted person?

Or would you wanna hand this to a new Christian to help them understand what has happened?

Yeah, I think, I hope, I hope that every person could be benefited. Like I hope in one sense, not that it's scholarly, but I hope that in one sense, you could hand it to a seminary student. They could do work with it, and then all the way down to a person, to a child, to one of my children.

Obviously it's written at a higher level than that, and they might kinda struggle a little bit depending on their reading level and such. But the idea is I try to write for a wide audience. And so I think that the new Christian would be encouraged by what has happened to them as they think through it.

I think that the seasoned Christian would be able to be encouraged and benefit and praise God as they think through this doctrine. I hope that it encourages people in evangelism. You know, like one of the things I try to hammer is like, don't talk to me about being a Calvinist and loving monergistic regeneration if you don't evangelize.

And then of course, I do think, and you mentioned this, I do think that it would be a good book to hand to someone that you might think is a false believer, you know? It may not be the best book per se for an atheist, but if there's someone trying to understand Christianity or if there's someone who is maybe a nominal Christian, then I think that it would be a good read for them too.

Although, I mean, even the atheists, you know, I mean, it lays out the core tenet of regeneration and why that matters so much. And, you know, regeneration, if you think about it, is really, the way that we understand it is an exclusively Christian doctrine.

That's right.

You know, you must be born again. There has to be a transformation that takes place in your life. And of course, we say that only happens by the sovereign and efficacious grace of God.

Regeneration, Monergism, and the New Birth

That's right. So I have a question, and this may be kind of a strange question, but thinking about bibliography outside of the Bible itself, what was the most helpful source that you think you used or read in thinking through this book and preparing and writing?

You know, the encouragement, there was so much encouragement from those who've gone before us. Dr. Mark Coppinger is funny. He's, I'll read you what he said. He said, he said he started grouping the theologians I used alphabetically.

To see if everything, every letter was covered.

So he says, pretty close to include this sampling. And this is his words. Augustine and Askell, Beakey, Burkoff, Bavinck, Bunyan, and Botner, Calvin, Carson, and Cyprian, Dagg, Edwards, Flavel, Grudem, Hodge, Judson, Keech, Luther, MacArthur, Nettles, Owen, Packer, Reisinger, Sproul, Tertullian, Vaughn, and for W, Wesley, Whitfield, Watson, and Washer.

And so I tried to draw from a lot of people who've gone before us. I really liked Benjamin Keech on some things, some of his writings, but some of the guys like Bavinck and Burkoff, some of the classic guys were really helpful.

I mean, all these guys, and what's interesting is some of these guys, like for example, the Presbyterians, it's so surprising how they're so good on this, and then they miss it when it comes to who's included in the new covenant.

Yeah, that's right, that's right.

So it was, but anyway, I tried to draw from a lot, and let me just say this, afterwards, like I've been reading more and more, John Owen's volume three, which I use that some, but the third volume of his works on the Holy Spirit, man, that's so good.

Like I would encourage any pastor, you know, if you're like, man, I'd like something to read from Owen, I can't afford his whole works, we'll start Bob volume three. It's so good, it's so encouraging.

He thinks through and helpful. So Owen was big, but also I like some of the, I searched through the document when I was done just to see, but I quoted Keech one more time than Sproul, so that means I keep my Baptist card, right?

But Sproul, obviously, Dr. Sproul was helpful. You know, all these guys really try to draw on a, to show that there might be some disagreements about some things between these various brothers, but this idea of regeneration is largely agreed upon.

You know, and early on, what I'm talking about in the reform camp, obviously it's agreed upon, but early on, you know, you deal with Augustine and Pelagius, and the argument between them really sets the stage for centuries even, you know, and that is, can a person just do what God says?

Can they just reach down in their own strength, pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and do what God says? And of course, Pelagius was like, yeah. And Augustine was like, no. You know, and then how this plays out later, and you have, you know, John Wesley who messes this up, you know, tries to maybe kind of find a common ground.

And then really you have Finney, and we're really dealing with the ramifications of Charles Finney in our world today. And so all this comes together as we explore, you know, the doctrine of regeneration.

I was listening last night to a conversation on the Conversations with a Calvinist podcast. And, you know, I won't say it well, one of the people on there was saying that they believe that the person without any outside, you know, efficacious grace or, and without, you know, this sovereign action of God, that the individual still can, they have the ability to believe, to choose the good.

But I don't believe what, but in Pelagianism, I'm like, well, that is Pelagianism. That is exactly what that is. Just because you say you don't want the label, that still is what Pelagianism is. Yeah.

That view that people have the ability in and of themselves out of sovereign action of God.

It's really interesting too. It's like these guys, you know, the latent flowers and stuff, you know, that's like.

Well, that's who it was.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

But what I'm saying is like, it's like, have you not read these guys? Have you not read these guys? Like Owen, even. And like, even Owen's very strong on the idea of, he starts talking about like, why do we preach the gospel to unbelievers?

And one of the things he says is because they do have a responsibility to believe. And once they even have an ability, but it's that that ability is so, it's that, and I don't know, some guys actually disagree between the natural moral ability and all that, not trying to get into all that.

But really the point is, they don't believe because they won't believe.

That's right. They don't want to.

Yeah.

And it's, you know, just like the idea of, you put the salad in front of the buzzard and you say, could he want to eat the salad? Well, I mean, you know, I get, yeah, but he's not going to.

Right.

Because of his nature, you know? And so the idea is our nature needs to be changed.

I would tell everybody listening, if you have, and that, you use that illustration in both books, from death to life and change of heart. And I would tell everybody, you need to read, you need to read both books, but you really need to make sure and read that.

I've used that illustration ever since reading from death to life. Brother, I've used that illustration countless number of times because it is so helpful in helping people to see just the reality of, if you want Christ, you can have him, but unless God changes your heart, you won't want him.

The issue is you won't want him.

Sure, put the rancid possum or the fresh Caesar salad in front of the buzzard. It's like, come to the salad, come to the salad, come to the salad. No, he's going to choose the possum, which represents the sin.

Or you take the, you know, the young girl, three-year-old girl, and you say, eat the broccoli. She doesn't want it. You know, you could force her to eat it, but you can't force her to love it.

That's right.

And that's the idea here is our desires need to be changed. And that's what, yeah, go ahead.

And then practically, we look in our churches today and we say, why do we see such a weak love for the local church, such a weak commitment to the Lord's day? Why do we see that? Well, because we've got a bunch of people in churches who are being made to eat the broccoli.

They don't love it.

Yeah, that's right.

No, they don't love Christ. They don't have new hearts. And they just know this is something they're supposed to do. And the idea that I don't need it, that the thing that should draw me to the church isn't the command, but the privilege of being with God's people and the love that I have for God's people and for the Lord's day and for the Lord's worship and for the Lord's word.

All those things ought to be compelling to the heart that's been changed, but they're instead a stench of death to death for the heart that hasn't been changed for those that are perishing, Paul says.

So yeah, it's, you know, even thinking about that, you know, Paul says there in 2 Corinthians, you know, the very same aroma is it's an aroma that he says is death to death for those who are perishing.

Baptism, the New Covenant, and Regenerated Believers

Yeah.

I was listening to a Paul Washer sermon one time, I actually put this in the book, but he was telling the story of a friend who asked the late Arnold Dallimore. The friend said, Dr. Dallimore, since the Puritans didn't give invitations, how did they know someone was saved?

And Dallimore responded with, that's easy because their life changed.

That's right.

And they continued to come to church. And so that's the idea of regeneration is total. It is a total change.

Yeah.

So, you know, one other thing I would throw in, you've mentioned John Owen a couple of times in thinking about, you mentioned the issue our Presbyterian brothers have when it comes to understanding regeneration, but not understanding who ought to rightly be included in the new covenant.

And I'll tell you, you know, I'm studying, I'm auditing class at Grace Bible Theological Seminary this semester on covenant theology. And that's one thing that has really stood out to me is that John Owen was almost a Baptist.

I mean, except for his practice, his theology was, you know, almost completely affirming of everything, you know, as far as both regeneration, even seeing the believers in the new covenant, it was really his practice.

Yeah.

You know, that was the difference.

Yeah, listen to this quote. The immersion in water of the persons of those who are baptized is set forth as their burial with Christ in his grave because of sin. And they're being raised again out of the water in the resurrection with Christ and is rising again from the dead because of their justification.

Do you know who said that?

I do not.

James Bannerman. Do you know who that is?

You should.

I do not.

Well, I think it might be mentioned, is it in that class? Maybe it's a different class, but, oh, it's a different class on the church. But James Bannerman wrote a book called The Church of Christ. It's a classic work, recommended work, great work.

But James Bannerman is a Presbyterian.

Oh.

Listen to Louis Burkhoff. They who accepted Christ by faith were to be baptized in the name of the triune God as a sign and seal the fact they'd entered into a new relation to God and as such were obliged to live according to the laws of the kingdom of God.

Okay, this is Bannerman and Burkhoff. So John Spilsbury, he's a 17th century Baptist. He says, to baptize infants makes the holy ordinance of God a line sign. So his argument is that infants cannot participate in all the things that the ordinance of baptism signifies.

Things like, he says, regeneration and spiritual new birth, a dying and bearing with Christ in respect of sin and a rising with him in a new life to God and a confirmation of faith in the death and resurrection of Christ and a free admission of sin by the same.

All right, so the idea here is the Baptists understand, and this is one of the things I deal with in the book. Some of that I was reading just from the book, but the Baptist understands the connection between the doctrine of regeneration and the ordinance of baptism.

These things actually go together. Not that baptism causes regeneration. Of course, it's not what we're saying, but it's the idea that baptism is only for those who have been regenerated.

Right.

And in the Bible, we always see it. We always see them together and we always see them in that order.

Well, that's what, yeah. And why I read those quotes from Bannerman and Burkoff is like those quotes I read, they're right. They're right. They may not be great, but they're inconsistent in the application of that.

So basically the book's broken up into three parts. Part one is just kind of a little bit of an introduction, why we need this book. Part two is what is regeneration? And that walks through the necessity of regeneration, why we need to be born again, the sovereignty of regeneration, how it is that we're born again, the totality of regeneration, what happens when we're born again.

And by the way, in sum, it changes everything.

Yeah.

Depravity is total and so is regeneration. Again, and just like depravity, regeneration doesn't mean that we're as holy as we need to be, but it does mean that everything in us, I'm talking about in a sanctified level, but it does mean that everything in us is now touched by the sovereignty of God and regeneration, our thoughts, our actions, our affections, everything.

And then finally, I talk about the longevity and that is there's no such thing as those born again who then become unborn again.

That's right.

And then part three talks about, okay, why does it matter then? Why does it matter if we get this right? So that's it, brother. And you have to read the book again when it comes out.

Dedication, Gratitude, and Closing Blessings

Oh, I can't, yeah, I can't wait because I know that since I read that version a couple of years ago, that you've made some changes and editing and those things.

I've had some big help, but so many people to thank, I need to thank Deborah Howard. She's edited all three of my books. I need to thank the folks at Free Grace Press. They are amazing. And I need to thank my family.

They're always patient with me. Sometimes it requires me coming up here late nights and stuff like that. But the book I dedicated to is, or who I dedicated the book to, dedicated to the Saints of Perryville Second Baptist Church is one of the greatest joys of my life to be your pastor.

Thank you for your love for Christ and his doctrine and for your eagerness to grow in the Lord. I've only grown in my love and appreciation for the local church over the last couple of years and particularly over the last few months and the things that we've been through.

And so I'm grateful. And I'm grateful above all, obviously to the grace of God and his work in my own life and the ability to write. And so hopefully there'll be a few people out there who read this book and are benefited in it.

And it helps their theology.

It helps their walk with Christ.

Maybe even people would become converted, some through reading.

Yep, yep.

Amen.

That's right. That's good. That's good.

Well, I think that episode number 32.

That's right.

Keep those Christmas trees up.

That's right.

Thank you guys for joining us this week on The Real Church Podcast.

Say goodbye, Eddie.

We'll see you guys next week.

If you really believe the church is the building, the church is the house, the church is what God's doing. This is his work. If we really believe what Ephesians says, we are the hoemos, the masterpiece of God.

How are you gonna respond?