Cultish: Was Christianity a Mushroom Fertility Cult? Pt. 2

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Don't you think that there's certain things that maybe God put here for us to consume, to change your perspective, to allow you to reach new levels of consciousness, don't you think it's entirely possible that some of these things that are here, and I know you haven't experienced them, but they might literally have been put there by God.

01:38

And there's some evidence to say that a lot of the texts from the Bible, that in particular, there was a,

01:44

I think it was the university of Tel Aviv somewhere in, in Jerusalem or these scholars were, they were trying to decipher what it meant when

01:55

Moses encountered the burning bush. And they believe that it may have been the Acacia tree, which is very rich in dimethyl tryptamine, which is a psychedelic substance that actually that the brain produces.

02:06

And it's very common in plants. And they think that this might have been when he met God and God was a burning bush, that this might have been some crude translation of them being involved in some sort of a psychedelic experience.

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Now, it sounds outlandish, unless you've had that psychedelic experience. And when you have, you very well could think that you were in a conversation with God.

02:29

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cultish. This is part two of our conversation with Wes Huff. We are talking about the sacred mushroom and the cross, all things trying to figure out is the

02:41

Bible some sort of secret, secret, subtle textbook about taking psycho psychedelic mushrooms in regards to fertility cults.

02:50

Been a fascinating conversation so far. Andrew Sousa, if Andrew is having some trouble with his wife,

02:56

I up in his super secret headquarters, not sure if there's some sort of EMP going off up there in Utah or he's somehow there's some sort of cabal that's suppressing him, that's out to not let us get our side of the story out.

03:08

But regardless, one of us is left standing. So I'm here right now, solo with Wes Huff. Welcome back, my friend.

03:17

Yeah, good to be here. The lizard people seem to think that we're less of a threat. Yes, Andrew is. I know.

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I know. Somehow we got another cuff, but unfortunately it looks like that whoever that one lady saw on that airplane a couple weeks ago, those people, those people apparently have shut down Andrew's Wi -Fi.

03:34

So hopefully we will get him back on the grid. But yeah, I played that clip just because even while what he's mentioning may not be necessarily

03:43

John Marco Allegro, it follows sort of a general line of thinking about the normalization of psychedelics and how can we now utilize this in regards to biblical interpretation and those sort of things you're starting to hear a whole lot more.

03:59

And a lot of times, whether you have a friend, family member, colleague, you're having this question, even like, is it

04:06

OK to be a Christian and take psychedelics? And in that Joe Rogan, in that conversation, he's talking about Ben Shapiro's, one of his

04:11

Ben Shapiro's appearances on that on his podcast. And he's and he's bringing up something that a lot of people bring up.

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So I'm very curious. So let's just jump into that, because it is sort of in line with Allegro's sort of line of thinking, the story of Moses at the burning bush and what he's mentioning about this group, this group of religious scholars in Tel Aviv.

04:33

Like, what's the line of argumentation? Is there anything tangible? Where are they getting this from? How would where would we even begin with something like that?

04:43

Yeah, well, the argument is basically that the acacia tree, which is a particular tree or bush that exists, has a has a.

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A what's the word I'm looking for, has a chemical component that exists within it that when it's broken down, turns into DMT, which is a hallucinogenic compound.

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So the chemical compound that exists within the acacia tree, if it is consumed via smoking, could at particular at a particular circumstance release

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DMT, which would cause a hallucinogenic experience. And so based on this, the now

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I haven't actually taken a look at the study that Joe Rogan is referring to, but but I am aware of the argument that the acacia tree exists in the

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Sinai Peninsula, whereas the the argument is that the classical place where Jesus encountered the burning bush is supposed to have been somewhere in that region.

05:53

Right. And therefore, that based on that, that if the bush was burning that and DMT was being released, that that was the experience that Moses therefore had.

06:07

Yeah. And it's interesting to me that similar to what we're talking about with Marco Allegro and the the hallucinogenic mushroom and and the cross argument, it's still in some ways a natural materialistic explanation for supernatural events.

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It's trying to reason around the supernatural world by saying there must be a naturalistic explanation.

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And that naturalistic explanation is chemistry. Yeah. We understand that there are certain compounds that exist that can do things to our brain chemistry.

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And Joe Rogan is by no means a natural materialist. He does believe that there's something else out there.

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But at a certain point in time, when you're relying on the fact that there needs to be a kind of natural materialistic explanation for that to be triggered, you're still operating on a natural materialistic explanation.

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You're ruling out that there is a, say, a divine authority who is operating in communicating in the natural world.

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And so we're told that in Exodus chapter three, when

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Moses encounters the burning bush, that what is actually happening is that there is a burning acacia bush and the burning acacia bush is releasing

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DMT. And that DMT is having a chemistry effect on Moses's brain, which is.

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Artificially. Making him have an experience of thinking he is communicating with God now, aside from everything else that happens in the book of Exodus, which also relies on that God communicating with with Moses and operating within the natural world with Moses, does this actually add up?

08:14

Well, I don't think it does. It's still speculative. It's still jumping to a conclusion in saying, well, it's assuming that there must be a hallucinogenic explanation.

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And so where would we find that hallucinogenic explanation? Yeah, well, I can understand that as a natural materialistic explanation, but it's still a confirmation bias because that's not what the biblical text says.

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The biblical text doesn't tell us what kind of bush it is. And in fact, if you look into traditional Tanianic Judaism in terms of the

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Talmud and the Midrash that exists, they have a completely different explanation.

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They describe it as a thorn bush, which the acacia bush is not. So traditional

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Judaism doesn't adhere to it being an acacia bush. In fact,

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I worked in 2011 in Jordan for a summer.

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I was I was out working in a at a tuberculosis clinic out there. Yeah. And I was told very, very emphatically that the the salt bushes that grew in the desert.

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Well, that was actually what the the burning bush was. It was a it was a salt bush, which is another common bush that exists throughout

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Jordan and the Sinai Peninsula. So it's not like this is the only explanation or even the most reasonable explanation.

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There are other explanations as to what this bush could actually be. I think people like Joe Rogan now, once again, like I said,

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I haven't looked at the study that he's referring to. So I would have to look into that and see exactly what they're referring to.

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But the acacia bush is one of a number of options that exist within the framework of what could have been the bush that was burning.

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But I think that's almost missing the point because the text doesn't say that it was the bush that was talking.

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It says that it was God that was talking from the bush. Yeah. Yeah.

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I mean, it says the angel of the Lord was standing in the burning bush and also says that the bush is never consumed.

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So I would assume that no carbon or matter from the bush is being burned by the fire.

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So the acacia, if it even was, none of that matter is actually, you know, changing.

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So you wouldn't be inhaling smoke from it. This is like a miracle that we're witnessing, not necessarily some weird hallucinogenic trip.

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Speak from Moses. Yeah. Speaking of miracles, you're back, Andrew. I know. Yeah. West was worried a moment ago.

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He said that maybe the lizard people were worried about what you're saying. And somehow we got under the radar. But you got you got suppressed.

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So it's good to have you back. Jerry. No, we are the lizard. Yes. Yes. We have that picture.

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That's classic. That's classic. Yeah. And so we're just bringing in the whole story of like Mount Sinai.

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You were you in a team. I'm not sure when you connected, but we were talking about Mount Sinai with Joe Rogan said in regards to that being

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Moses and the burning bush being a psychedelic experience. Like one of the things that he is reiterating and you can give me your thoughts, too.

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Was the fact that there's sort of this assumption and maybe this is connected to Allegro, like presuppositionally, do they believe in?

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I don't know. What do you think about this, Andrew? I'm gonna set you up for this. But it seems that Allegro and his assertions and assumptions and sometimes when people make these things, trying to explain the supernatural, it's like they understand that's there.

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There's something tangible there in regards to supernatural experiences that the Bible is talking about, Old and New Testament.

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But it can't. How do you explain that in a supernatural experience? So it seems that they're utilizing all of the psychoactive substances to say the only way anybody can even write this down as a witness and testimony and people to have it be legitimate would have to be through some sort of psychoactive experience, not necessarily actually experiencing the supernatural.

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He correlates it with Old Testament experience. He correlates that with Jesus of Nazareth. He correlates that with the

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Apostle Paul's experience being caught up in the third heaven. What do you think about that? And let me know what questions you have for Wes in regards to that.

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Yeah, I think it's a weird form of a naturalistic explanation. It seems that man always has the problem with the fact that God condescends to make himself known to us.

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I think it's an anthropology issue that we're that. No, that's that's not happening. It's more of man who has to make the connection through specific objects to reach and contact a higher level of consciousness or being.

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We have an issue as of people, number one, with the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Right. Like God himself took on flesh.

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John one 18 says no one has ever seen God, the father, except the unique and only son, the monogamous theos, who has made him known.

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And people don't like that in their sinful nature. They think that they need to do

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X, Y or Z in order to achieve some level of insight or secret knowledge.

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And I think that that's typically one of the explanations. But what I find so interesting from that presupposition, really, that men have to poison their brains with natural materials in order to receive some immaterial revelation of who

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God is. I think in itself, it's a it's a walking contradiction because the search for higher knowledge outside of the flesh should not rely on fleshly means.

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With like some form of internal consistency for like a Gnosticism or something like that, what do you think about that,

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Wes? Yeah, I think you put it very articulately, I, I would

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I would agree with that, I think that. What people like Joe Rogan are articulating is,

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I think, the natural outcome of wanting to be at the center of.

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Revelation, history, you know, it's easier to think that while Moses was experiencing this and he is this, he's the focus, he's the one who's breathing in the

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DMT from the Saccasia Bush. And then he is the focus. And that that is actually communicating the the what proceeds with revelation history, with the exodus.

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But that's not what scripture is talking about. I mean, this is one of my frustrations with Jordan Peterson when he talks about the

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Old Testament, is that he I've never heard someone talk about the Old Testament more and fail to realize that God is the main character.

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It's not us. Right. And I think that the same sort of thing is going on in that I don't blame someone like Jordan Peterson or someone like Joe Rogan for wanting to put humanity as the main character because our natural inclination is to want to do that because we will choose an egotistical, self -centered perspective 100 percent of the time, apart from the self revelatory picture of who

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God is and how he is operating in the world. Yeah. You know, God didn't choose Moses because he was such a great man.

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God chose Moses despite Moses. And that's how God chooses all of us.

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God chooses us despite ourselves. And so you can understand why we would want to find these types of explanations for these supernatural events, which seem bigger than life.

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You know, God communicating to humanity through a bush. Well, there's obviously has to be some sort of explanation there.

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Well, what about this chemical explanation, which we can derive from these hallucinogenic compounds that we at this point in history know about?

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Well. OK, but what if God actually did communicate? Yeah. What if it was actually

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God? What if it was, as you just said, Andrew, the angel of the

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Lord, who I would actually argue is Jesus. Amen. In the bush, communicating to Moses, the pre -incarnate

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Jesus, you know, the monogamous, they asked the one and only God who's in the bosom of the father, who exegetes, who makes the

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God, who makes God the father known. What if that's who's communicating to Moses? Well, that completely changes things.

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And so I think in one sense, I can understand someone like Joe Rogan wanting humanity to be the arbiter of that divine revelation.

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But ultimately, the spirit is the one who communicates that. No, no, this is

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God. This is God communicating to his people. And in this instance, revealing his name Yahweh, I am.

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Who who should they say is the God who sends me? Well, I am who I am sends me.

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Well, this is a this is a big moment. And and I think it's it's it's easy to want to obfuscate to say that this is this is a man centered.

17:23

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Talk to you later, guys. Do you think when it comes to John Marco Allegro, do you know what his worldview was?

18:52

I mean, when I was reading through, listening through all of that in the last over the weekend at one point seven speed,

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Andrew still doesn't understand how I listen to audible books that fast. But when I was listening through that, like I was generally really wondering, like, what does he give any acknowledgment whatsoever to the supernatural?

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Because it seemed that he was just utilizing the mushroom, this mushroom, that for everything.

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Like, do you know what his underlying presupposition was? Was he's a materialist or was he kind of did he give some credit precedence to the unknown in regards to the immaterial?

19:28

Like there is a spiritual realm or what? Do you have any knowledge of that? What are your thoughts on that, Wes? Yeah, I know he was.

19:36

I'm just trying to look now on the on the back of the book. I know he was an ordained minister at one point, but he had completely abandoned the historical faith, obviously, by the time he wrote the

19:52

Sacred Mushroom of the Cross. I think he was Anglican, but I could be wrong about that Methodist.

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Yeah. Yeah. This is that after the war, he had begun training for the

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Methodist ministry, but found that he was more interested in Hebrew and Greek. So he at least pursued that to a certain degree.

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I know he is from the UK, and lived in London. But I don't

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I don't know if he ever had a substantial belief. He obviously went off into a very left field in terms of not left politically, but left in terms of like a little bit looney tunes.

20:35

And and even his his his contemporaries kind of pointed that out is that he wasn't just articulating a liberal point of view.

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He wasn't just articulating a skeptical point of view. He was really going off and publishing things that even the skeptical world of scholarship was saying, we're we're not on board with this.

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So he was he was a little bit a little bit out there in terms of his his his worldview perspective.

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And he might have had some semblance of a a believing perspective.

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But obviously, he never truly. Understand that understood that rather or took that to heart.

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What would did you ever see Exodus, God and kings? Christian bail is Moses. Yes, I I don't think

21:34

I watched it, but I remember it coming out. OK, Andrew, did you see it? I never saw that.

21:40

OK. Oh, you know what I did? Yeah, I did. Now that I think about it, because I remember God. Appearing as a child.

21:46

Yes, as a boy. Yes. But yeah, so just just very quickly where I'm going with this is that Ridley Scott, when he directed that, and I think even for him,

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I believe Ridley Scott's an atheist, but he like tried to articulate all of the plagues in Egypt as all coming about by naturalistic means, not necessarily like this is what

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God did. So it almost seems that sometimes there is this sort of presupposition that miracles can't contradict science or that there's something underlining.

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You have to be able to explain what happened without it being supernatural, just taking what the biblical text says at face value.

22:26

There's underlying presuppositions that causes people to alter their message. And so while Ridley Scott and John Mark Allegro have, from my understanding, like very different worldviews, like they're they're coming to a point where they're changing, where Ridley Scott's coming to because he said he got a whole plethora of scholarship to make sure he gave an accurate portrayal, a proper portrayal of Exodus.

22:48

And after I'm watching him, I'm like, what? Watching with my wife, like, what did we do? What are we watching? Like, what is actually happening here?

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There is an underlying portrayal where with both of them, where my presuppositions between the material and the immaterial, like I have to somehow either explain it away where the plagues are by naturalistic means, or in the case with John Mark Allegro, where I have to look at the biblical text where literally everything that's supernatural somehow is tied into some sort of psychedelic experience, whether it's in Isaiah, the

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New Testament, like whatever it is, and also correlate it with some sort of symbolism in relation to fertility cults where, you know, maybe we could talk about this.

23:31

That's when you look at how the New Testament formulated, that is the quintessential opposite of all the different religions at that time who are doing those sorts of things.

23:42

So it's like if that was the case, like how there's so many areas which the New Testament is off,

23:48

I mean, all all the calls for like holiness and to set yourself apart from a crooked and perverse generation, all the all the all the admonitions that Paul gives away to sustain from sexual immorality.

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Like, how does that work within like this is written by an apostle who's trying to work together some sort of fertility cult off of taking mushrooms.

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I mean, it just it just baffles me how he is really coming to these conclusions or people are really who have read this and believe this are really really thinking through to the logical conclusions of where this really ends up, you know what

24:28

I mean? Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying. And I think this plays into publications like the book that we referred to earlier, the immortality key.

24:40

Yeah, but it refers to these Greco -Roman cults which had a hallucinogenic compounds within their their wine ceremonies.

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And so the argument is that we've done sort of chemical analysis on particular wine jars, and we found that religions that are related to Bacchus, the wine god, or a few others, that there were there was more going on than just alcohol within the ceremonies that were related to these these religious institutions.

25:16

And the problem I find with those types of arguments is that there's enough truth in them that when people look them up, they'll find the details there that they they kind of brush over than the broad, overarching conclusions that are made.

25:31

There are hallucinogenic compounds that are found in wine jars within Greco -Roman antiquity.

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And there are even hallucinogenic compounds that were found in particular vessels that were used within, say, the early

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Lord's Supper that were used in particular areas in Greece and Rome and Turkey.

25:54

That's completely aside from whether that was the original intention or purpose of something like the

26:02

Lord's Supper. If there happens to be hallucinogenic compounds in the wine that you're using in the second or third century, that has nothing to do with the

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Lord instituting the Lord's Supper at the Passover in the first century.

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Those are completely unrelated events. And this is also aside from the fact that what

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I think a lot of those theories miss is the emphasis within both the

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New Testament and the early church of being sober. Drunkenness is unanimously a negative thing, which is not true in a lot of the

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Greco -Roman religious cultic practices. Drunkenness was regularly participated within both festivals and and, you know, the sexual orgies that happened within particular cults.

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Those were commonplace. And what set Christianity apart is that they would not participate in those. In fact, some of the earliest critiques of Christianity is that they were a atheistic because they denied the gods existed because they only believed in one

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God, the one true God, and B, that they were antisocial, that they would not participate in the social events that were just, you know, the regular goings on of the society, but that they were because they were inherently religious in nature.

27:28

Christians wouldn't participate in them. And so when we look at these things and and and we read these pieces of literature like the immortality key and they're talking about the

27:40

Lord's Supper and they're maybe making some connections with some things that are going on in the Old Testament and saying, well, this is a this is just a straight line that's drawn across.

27:49

You know, it starts with people like Moses and the burning bush. But then this these hallucinogenic experiences are are experienced right across the board, right up until the

27:59

Lord's Supper when they're participating in ritualistic ceremonies that include hallucinogenic compounds.

28:06

Well, it misses the fact that sobriety sits at the center of Christian practice and ministry and being sober minded, being aware of what's going on so that you can be both a clear example to the community and be an effective example as a follower of Christ, as an ambassador of Christ, as as an arbiter of who

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God is. It really kind of misses that point.

28:42

So it cherry picks just enough truth and saying that these sorts of things can be found in Greco -Roman society and in fact, can be found in some isolated cases of, say, vessels that are found in particular locations in in this one location or that one location that may have had hallucinogenic compounds that were taken from the vessels that were used for the

29:09

Lord's Supper. And then it explicates that and draws a broad brush across.

29:15

OK, well, this has to do with all of early Christianity and therefore this is what's really going on.

29:22

Yeah, it's drawing from these Bacchus and Dionysus cults. And I think that's just at minimum.

29:29

It's it's it's silly. Yeah. And at most it's making too much of too little.

29:34

Yeah. So a question in regards to that. So in the

29:39

New Testament, specifically, the word is used pharmacheia in Galatians talks about the deeds of the flesh.

29:45

Right. Now, how would Christians in the first century, from what you know, just understanding first century

29:51

Christian history, how would they would have interpreted that when they hear the word pharmacheia?

29:57

New Testament's written in Greek at that time. This is pre pharmaceuticals. This is pre anesthesia.

30:04

This is pre a lot of what we are looking at in our in our time. I mean, obviously, you had groups that were into taking psychoactive substances and all that.

30:11

But how how would in a first century audience like what was pharmacheia to them? How would Christians would have interpreted, implied that from your perspective?

30:21

I mean, Paul talks about that, right? He talks about the the acts of the flesh.

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They're obvious sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. And so no matter what's going on, it's it's a negative.

30:35

So it's framed within the understanding that this. Uh. Whatever is going on is is not something that should be participated within.

30:48

And and so is that what you're referring to? Yeah. Yeah. Am I? Yeah. So it's it's framed it framed in a negative.

30:56

And I think, you know, we can speculate as to what what exactly going on in and do, you know, those etymological breakdowns of what pharmacheia could have meant.

31:06

But Paul is still framing it in a negative. He's framing it in it as a context to something that the

31:11

Galatian community shouldn't be participating in. Right. And Andrew, give me your thoughts.

31:18

But it just seems that John Marco Lagos whole argument seems to kind of like fall is a house of cards because you're essentially arguing that this group founded on pharmacheia.

31:29

One of the primary things that was really taught when it first started in the first century was not to do pharmacheia.

31:36

So we're going to do pharmacheia not to do it or that this is a work of the flesh. Seems to be rather counterintuitive.

31:43

What are your thoughts on that, Andrew? Yeah. What I think of is what we're talking about is walking in the spirit.

31:53

Right. In terms of what the Bible says about that is in order to live a life of the fruits of the spirit, we must actually be indwelt by the

32:03

Holy Spirit, meaning that it's fully a work of God done through the incarnation, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, where I can emanate the fruits of the spirit.

32:11

But what happens is there's people who want to walk according to the spirit, but they do these things through fleshly means and they don't get fruit from the spirit.

32:22

Right. Like gentleness, patience, peace, self -control. Instead, they're exhibiting maybe sexual morality or they're then twisting the text to try to justify a sin behavior.

32:36

Right. Because those who walk according to the flesh are not able to walk according to the spirit. They cannot please

32:41

God. So what we see with, let's say, pharmacheia or using objects such as LSD or mushrooms,

32:53

DMT, all of these things is the fleshly man trying to gain some type of attribute, some type of knowledge that is only hidden in Christ.

33:04

And God warns us of those things because they're not in themselves true.

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Like Paul states in Colossians that all wisdom and treasures of knowledge are hidden in Christ for a very specific reason.

33:18

And right after that, he says, be thankful in your salvation. And then right after he says to be thankful in your salvation, he says, do not fall prey to empty philosophy, deceit, elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

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And he reminds you that in Christ, he was filled with all of the deity, right?

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And then he says, you have been filled in him who is the head of all rule and authority. So we as Christians are told that we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, Ephesians chapter one.

33:50

And in that, we don't need to use other fleshly means to try to obtain some type of knowledge that God's revealed to us in his word already.

33:59

I think what we see happening from the crowd that is really wanting to get some other worldly type of knowledge is not that they're walking according to the spirit and actually gaining real knowledge.

34:13

They're actually just walking according to the flesh and they're falling prey to elemental spirits of the world. And they're living in delusion and they are walking in sin and they're just trying to justify it.

34:23

Like that's my personal thought. No, that's good.

34:29

That's good, man. What did you have any thoughts on like Mark Allegro's worldview or just any questions you have for Wes regarding this?

34:39

Yeah, with John Mark Allegro's worldview, Wes, he says he was an agnostic.

34:44

Um, how, how does that make any sense with regards to the truth claims that he's bringing in the sacred mushroom in the cross?

34:53

Is he being consistent there? Yeah, that's a good question.

34:58

I mean, I think, um, he's attempting to find truth, but he's missing the point pretty broadly and he's almost doing what you see the ancient agnostics doing in that they're, they're trying to find the truth in, in some sort of secret explanation that sits behind the reality of what's actually going on.

35:28

You know, it's, it's not just that, that Jesus is God. It's that, that there's this secret knowledge that actually you're

35:35

God. And so you can unlock this with the secret knowledge. This is a common theme throughout the Gnostic gospels.

35:40

And I think that in some ways, maybe John Mark Allegro, although this is just me explicating is, is, is drawing from that in a modern materialistic explanation.

35:54

He's just including this psychedelic substance explanation into the whole narrative of it.

36:01

But it's still an attempt of humanity trying to find an explanation that is anything other than what

36:11

God has actually communicated through his word. You know, Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life.

36:17

And the Gnostics say, no, actually, that's not the whole story. Actually, there's a, the

36:23

Jesus isn't just the way, the truth, and the life. You are the way, the truth, and the life. You just need to unlock it when you realize that there's the secret knowledge that enlightens you.

36:30

And John Mark Allegro, in turn, kind of has this secret knowledge that through these psychedelic substances, through these, the secret code of etymological words, you can actually figure out what everyone else is missing.

36:51

That this whole world religion, the largest world religion in the world. I mean, if you include, you know, everybody is missing the point.

37:01

And actually, you know, the secrets, you know, the secret that it actually has to do with these hallucinogenic mushrooms.

37:08

And so I think that that puts, once again, that puts us at the center. That puts us in an advantageous place where we can know what's truly going on.

37:17

And that makes us in a place of expertise and hierarchy.

37:29

And I think that that is, that's very seductive to the world.

37:35

Because it makes me an arbiter of truth. When in reality, the communication of scripture is that, no, you're not enough.

37:45

You can't think your way into the kingdom of God. It's not about secret knowledge.

37:51

It's not about what you can accomplish and figure out through your intellectual expertise.

38:02

It's about what Christ has done on the cross and how that saves you as a sinner who is in the depths of brokenness.

38:12

And so in terms of Marco Allegra's worldview, I think even though he had this upbringing or this background in some sort of form of Christianity, he either completely missed the point or he didn't want to see it.

38:30

Because what he ended up communicating through his published work was just another version, just another recasting of an ancient form of Gnosticism that he actually had the secret knowledge that it was through understanding all of these things and all of these codes and all of these etymological roots into the

38:54

Semitic language and Sumerian. And then that will unlock the truth.

39:02

And, you know, ultimately, unfortunately, it's a sad ending because I don't know if Marco Allegra ever came to the truth, capital

39:14

T truth. But certainly if his published works are any indication, he seemed to be pretty off base on that.

39:25

Yeah. Have you, like in your field, in your work, in your ministry, I mean, a big part of it is just the scholarship.

39:33

Your parents were also missionaries. You've done mission work as well, too. Like, have you had time where you've spoken with people who were into the new age and have come out of it?

39:43

Yeah, definitely. Especially here in Toronto, there's a lot of people who are involved in the new age.

39:49

It seems, I think actually, you know, we talk a lot about the fact that we're a post -Christian culture.

39:55

Yes. I think actually North America is a post -secular culture. I think that we've realized that the fruits of the new atheism, which actually wasn't very new, have, you know, they've fallen off the tree and their seeds have been planted and they've grown a tree, which is realized that telling people that you're a product of time plus matter plus chance doesn't really give you any hope.

40:17

And so people have abandoned Dawkins and Dennett and Harris, and they've looked to individuals who actually point them towards something that communicates that there is something more, whether that's, you know, the

40:35

Joe Rogans of the world, which I think this has a large part to do with why they're so popular. I think people realize that there's more out there.

40:43

Yeah. You know, it's not, you can't just die and then your body goes into the ground and you grow into a tree and that's it.

40:50

Yeah. I think we realize that that makes life pretty empty. And so I deal a lot with people who are, at least in some capacity, this kind of very meaningless statement of spiritual, but not religious.

41:09

But what they really mean is that they're grabbing bits and parts of new age and bits of Christianity that they like, or bits of Buddhism that they like, but then leaving out a lot that actually holds those things together.

41:52

It's an after show commentary where we get to say all of the things that they won't let us. On top of that, you get all of the other training on apologyistudios .com.

42:01

Come be one of us, head over to thecultistshow .com or follow the link in the show notes and click the join button.

42:08

Directly support the work of this ministry as the mission is completely funded by you, our listener. No, I mentioned that just because I think in part one, you mentioned that you were, you've done work just kind of on college campuses or just sort of doing that sort of outreach and having conversing with students and then bringing up these sort of argumentations of John Marco Allegro.

42:27

Now, while Allegro might have just used that to explain away the supernatural components, it does seem to be maybe you get to testify with the students that you've interacted with.

42:36

I've seen that anyone that I've ever interacted with who's open to the idea or has experimented with psychedelics without getting too sensational.

42:46

There is a component of people who have experimented where they put their mind into an altered state of consciousness, and they end up getting in contact with something on the other side.

42:57

People like Russell Brand have talked about it, people like Aubrey Marcus. Things that honestly are spiritually dangerous and things that ultimately, which is interesting, that the way they end up getting free from that when they get in contact with those things is to call out to the name of Jesus.

43:12

It does seem that regardless that there is like the spiritual component where I've even talked and minister to people who are in the new age who are actively experimenting with ayahuasca and different type of substances or psilocybin mushrooms who are saying they're getting in contact with things.

43:34

And I've actually been able to utilize that as a chance to actually bring up the gospel talking about they're actually trying to find in that what they're ultimately trying to find in God.

43:43

It's interesting too, Wes, and I'll let you comment on this, is that we're mentioning about Moses and the burning bush, how they are trying to think all this was was a psychedelic experience.

43:54

I think there's actually a good correlation there when reality, as we were talking about earlier, that wasn't just some sort of DMT, mind altering, you know, your neurons are firing one way versus another by way of a substance outside of yourself.

44:08

Moses is interacting with Yahweh, the I am like that's who is interacting with.

44:13

And it seems that people are trying to also find in these substances which can only be found in the

44:21

I am. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I would agree.

44:26

I'm not a natural materialist. I believe there is a spiritual world, and I'm totally open to the fact that these substances can open us up to something that exists outside of the natural materialistic world that we live in, because I do think that there are beings that exist outside of our kind of conscious world that we understand.

44:50

And I think there's a there's a danger in that. And I, you know, I have people in my church who have come to faith through experiences where exactly what you just communicated,

45:02

Jeremy, of going through psychedelic experiences and trying to find the answers through there and ultimately realizing that there's a danger there and exactly what you said, crying out in the name of Jesus and then being released.

45:18

And I think that there's there's a lot of truth in that. You know, I think that I don't discount these stories of people who have these hallucinogenic experiences.

45:28

I think there's something to that. I believe in a spiritual world that often crosses over with the material world because I am a

45:38

Bible believing Christian. And there are examples of that in Scripture.

45:44

There was a crossover in the temple where the Shekinah, the glory of the

45:52

Lord, was crossing over in the Holy of Holies. That's a reality. Now, that doesn't mean that what we're dealing with when we have these hallucinogenic experiences are enlightened.

46:06

I think they're more often than not demonic. And I think we need to be very wary and careful of those because, you know, the

46:15

Satan and the demons are not fools.

46:21

They've been at this a lot longer than we have. And they know that if they can distract us from understanding and pursuing the truth, they're going to do that.

46:31

So sometimes that will look like, you know, the Dawkins and convincing us that the spiritual world doesn't exist.

46:41

But sometimes it's convincing us that the spiritual world does exist and pursuing that in a very like down the rabbit hole way.

46:50

And so I think we need to be careful one way or the other because the spiritual world is certainly reality.

46:56

And I think that there are these substances, which I'm totally open to opening up doors into those realities.

47:03

I just think we need to be very, very careful with what we're doing, whether that's new age or whether that's the occult or whether it's through psychedelic and hallucinogenic compounds.

47:14

These are all avenues that we as Christians should be aware are opening up avenues to spiritual forces that we believe exist but are not going to be profitable for leading us to what is truth.

47:32

But it will ultimately be distractions that the enemy uses. No, that's no,

47:39

I would definitely reciprocate that. You know, really viewing the world through the lens.

47:45

I like to say it through the lens of the incarnation. And any of these topics, people tend to pendulum swing towards one side towards the total naturalistic side versus all of a sudden pendulum swing just towards the materialistic side.

47:59

You know, you could see that with John Marco Allegro or somebody, for example, the Gnostic who goes to the other side and just says, hey, there's nothing all the materials bad.

48:07

And there's this over emphasis on the spiritual. So definitely utilizing through that lens. And it's good to just have real awareness of where the world is right now in relation to neo -paganism and us being a post -Christian society with all that.

48:21

Andrew, do you have any other thoughts or questions as we wrap up the second part of this conversation with Wes on John Marco Allegro?

48:27

It just reminds me of Proverbs 35 through 6. It says every word of God proves true. He is like a shield unto them who put their faith in him.

48:34

Add thou not unto these words lest he rebuke you and thou shalt be found a liar. The reason why Christians aren't and should not go after hallucinogenics to try to understand

48:44

God more is because we believe that the word of God is what we need to know

48:49

God because it's his will revealed to us. And that's a protection for us. And I praise

48:55

God for that. But in order to believe that it is truly the word of God, it takes an act of God.

49:01

And us Christians looking around the world today and seeing what people are trying to do, hurting themselves, poisoning their bodies and their minds to try to get a spiritual connection to God, we should weep for them.

49:15

We should weep for them. They don't have to sacrifice themselves in any form of the matter, you know, poison themselves.

49:23

No, Jesus Christ was the sacrifice for us. None of those things will give you a connection to God.

49:28

None of those things will bridge the gap. None of those things will give you any type of knowledge that's going to keep you alive after death.

49:35

The reality is, is that it took the blood of the God, man, Jesus Christ to cover our sins because we have defied a holy

49:42

God. The blood of Jesus Christ is what covers me and protects me. And through faith in him and him alone, not me poisoning my own body, me not opening myself up to possible spirits and elemental principles of the world.

49:56

No, the God, man, Jesus Christ, I am protected in him. I'm hidden in Christ and with Christ.

50:05

And I praise Jesus for that. And that's the call for anyone who may have just stumbled upon this, you know, looking up the sacred mushroom, even on like Apple podcast or something like, man,

50:14

I've been listening to these Christians now for two episodes. Well, the call for you is to repent and believe in Jesus Christ and with him and submitting to him, you can renew your mind through his word.

50:25

He promises us that in his in his word that's revealed for us. You don't have to ruin yourself in order to do that.

50:31

You just have to put your faith in Jesus Christ. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, on top of that, just piggybacking off that, unlike what we talked about in our previous episodes with the

50:43

Gnostic Gospels, unlike with the conspiracy theories around Constantine, unlike Marco Legro and the sacred mushroom in the cross, man, there is such a plethora of evidence pointing directly to the historical reliability of the claims of Jesus.

50:58

We don't have to go into conjecture. We don't have to go into conspiracy. The evidence is there. And it's just a mountain of evidence pointing to the scriptures being true, being written by individuals who are there or by communicating with people who were there.

51:14

Jesus said the things that he said that are recorded in the gospel. And so we don't have to run to grand conspiracy theories about hallucinogenic compounds or sacred cults or cover ups or this person wanting to impose their authority on what is actually true.

51:40

We can go directly to the evidence. The evidence communicates, no, this is true.

51:45

This is what these people actually saw. Jesus claimed to be God.

51:51

He made those audacious claims and claims to be God himself, predicted his own death and resurrection.

51:57

And then he did it. And people who have people who rise from the dead have more credibility and authority than people who don't rise from the dead.

52:04

And so that speaks volumes. Now, that's good. And that's a good way to wrap up.

52:10

I definitely appreciate you make the time again, West, coming to us from Toronto, Canada. Lastly, if people want to get in contact with you and find out what you're all about and what else you have out there, where can people find you at?

52:23

The easiest way would be WesleyHuff .com, W -E -S -L -E -Y -H -U -F -F .com or ApologeticsCanada .com.

52:31

Those are the two sites that would summarize where you would find the podcast, the videos, the infographics, all the fun stuff that you'd want to know about what

52:41

I'm getting up to. Awesome. Sounds good. All right. Well, all that being said, we will talk to you all next time on Cultish where we enter into the game of the cults.

52:49

Talk to you all next week or talk to you all soon. What's up, everybody? It's the Super Sleuth here, letting you know that you can go to ShopCultish .com

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53:02

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53:08

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