A Provisionist and a Calvinist Discuss Evangelism (A Conversation with Leighton Flowers)

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00:00

If you only talk to people who agree with you, then there's a good chance you might start to think that you are always right.

00:08

Well, today I'm going to be talking with someone who doesn't often agree with me, but I'm glad to have him on the show.

00:14

And guys, we have Dr.

00:16

Leighton Flowers with us.

00:18

Conversations with a Calvinist begins right now.

00:39

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

00:41

My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist and I am excited and I am honored to welcome my new friend, Leighton Flowers.

00:51

Leighton, thank you for joining me on the show today.

00:54

It's my honor, Keith.

00:55

Thanks for having me on.

00:56

Absolutely.

00:57

And if you're unfamiliar with Dr.

00:59

Flowers, then you're probably not a Calvinist because he is the man behind Soteriology 101, one of the most well-known voices in the Calvinism versus Provisionism debate, and he is probably one of the most well-known critics of the positions that I hold, and many people have wondered why, if that is the case, I would invite him to come on my program.

01:28

And so I wanted to start today by sort of answering that question and talking about what brought this all about.

01:36

About three weeks ago now, I was leaving church on a Sunday evening.

01:41

We have an academy class that we teach on Sunday evening, and I was leaving the church and my phone began to blow up.

01:48

I started seeing buzzing in my lap as my phone sits on my knee.

01:52

I looked down at a stoplight.

01:55

I didn't look down while driving.

01:56

I looked down at a stoplight and I noticed that all my friends were sending me messages saying, hey, you're on Soteriology 101.

02:04

And if you don't know what that is, again, that is Leighton's website where he critiques Calvinists and Calvinistic teaching, and I pulled up the video and there it was, Leighton was talking about a recent podcast that I was on with Jay Antello, which is called The Reformed Rican, and I had talked about the five points of Calvinism, given my understanding of those, and Leighton gave a response to the first two, and I listened to the whole thing.

02:38

I prayed about it.

02:39

I said, should I respond to this? And I had two options.

02:43

I could either make my own video and post it and let people watch it, or I could reach out to him.

02:48

So the next thing that I did was I just sent him, well, actually I tweeted you, didn't I? I tweeted.

02:54

I said, I don't know how to get ahold of you.

02:56

And you just tweeted me back and said, I'm right here.

02:58

Like, like send me a message.

03:00

So, um, he was very gracious to respond to my tweet and he was willing to come on the show.

03:06

And one of the things that, or two things that were, that he mentioned in that critique, one was that, um, he said he didn't hear any, hear, hear any new arguments and, um, the, the, the honest reality of that is true.

03:22

We don't hear a lot of new arguments because these same arguments have been going on for about 500 years.

03:27

Now I will say, I do think Leighton, you bring up, you do introduce some new arguments from your side because you don't give the classical Arminian approach.

03:36

You take a provisionist approach.

03:38

So it is a little different than what many of us are used to.

03:42

If we're dealing with Wesleyans or people like that, can you tell us the basic difference between you and a classical Arminian? And I know you probably need a lot of time for that.

03:51

So if you could give it to us, just, just, uh, if I said, what's a, what's the difference between a provisionist and Arminian? Yeah.

03:57

Um, and anybody who listens to my program knows I have a tendency to be a little long winded.

04:01

Um, so I'll try, I'll try to keep it brief.

04:04

Keith, just cut me off if I don't.

04:05

But, um, basically it starts, it's a starting point.

04:08

Uh, the, the Augustinian grid, uh, of the last 500 year debate has really been on this whole concept of starting with T and that is the concept of total depravity.

04:19

Meaning you're morally, you're not physically, but morally incapable of responding positively to the gospel unless you were unilaterally picked and effectually changed in, in a way to make you, uh, respond positively on Calvinism or on Arminianism, what they would say, unless you were perveniently graced in such a way as to bring you back to a point where you have the freedom, uh, of the will to accept or reject the gospel.

04:43

We, we just kinda, we, we kinda step off that Augustinian grid and we, we adopt a more pre-Augustinian view of anthropology, uh, which is, is more that, that yes, we're fallen.

04:54

Yes.

04:55

We need a savior.

04:56

Uh, yes, we are all sin and fall short of the glory of God, but that doesn't mean we've lost our ability to respond to the call to be reconciled by God, that he sends a sufficient message to all people that, that people are able to respond to the truth and revelation that he's made known.

05:11

And therefore you're held responsible to that revelation.

05:14

And so we kind of remove ourselves from that Augustinian grid, which does cause some angst, obviously for people who are in that, that grid or that way of thinking, that seems like it's, it's off of orthodoxy or it's not, um, you know, it's, it's Pelagian or semi Pelagian at best, or those kinds of arguments.

05:31

And so we, we answer those kinds of charges.

05:33

I understand why people make those kinds of charges.

05:35

Back when I was a Calvinist for 10 years, I would have said the same thing about provisionism, uh, had it existed back then.

05:40

But, um, the, the term provisionism, by the way, I know it's a new label, but it really is just, it's not meant to be an ism.

05:47

It's meant to just say, we believe God provides.

05:49

Yes.

05:49

People are sinners.

05:50

Yes.

05:50

People are depraved.

05:51

Yes.

05:51

People are enemies of God.

05:52

Yes.

05:52

They're hostile, but God provides for all of those people.

05:55

And he provides in such a way as that anyone can respond positively to the truth that he's made known to us.

06:01

And so that's really what provisionism is all about.

06:04

It's not new.

06:05

As far as we can tell, we, like I said, it's really more based upon, uh, more of a first, second, third century reading of the original authors versus, uh, you know, the reading that came, uh, you know, post Augustine's influence.

06:19

Several years ago, there was a group within this, within Southern Baptist life who used the term traditionalist.

06:25

Was that the same, same group? Yeah.

06:28

In fact, my book, um, the Potter's Promise that that's even titled with the, the, the, a biblical defense of the traditional sociology, which is talking about a traditional Southern Baptist perspective.

06:39

Um, and a lot of Calvinists rightly so, especially from the founders ministry of the Southern Baptist convention really didn't like that because the original, many of the original founders of the Southern Baptist convention were Calvinist.

06:50

And that's just a fact of the matter.

06:52

Now, when, when Southern Baptist became very popular and big was in the forties and fifties under more of a whosoever will provisionist quote unquote type of theology, uh, but the founders ministry is really trying to restore Southern Baptist back to its Calvinistic roots.

07:09

Um, and, and I was defending what would be, I guess, more popularly among those of us who hold to it within the Southern Baptist convention of a more traditional, not meaning it's the way it necessarily started, but it's almost like when you say I go to the traditional worship service, it's not saying that your worship service is exactly the way it was back in 1850.

07:26

It means the worship service, your grandparents and your great grandparents would have been more accustomed to.

07:32

And this is the same kind of thing that I think most people mean when they talk about a traditional Southern Baptist theology.

07:38

Okay.

07:38

And that's important because I, I have talked about that in our own church when I teach on church history, because we do hold to a historic Baptist confession.

07:47

We don't hold to the 1689.

07:49

We actually hold to the 1646, which is the second edition of the first confession, which is really weird.

07:54

Cause I could, you know what all that's about.

07:57

So anyway, we, we hold to the 1646 and we, you know, we point out the fact that this, this was the, this was the ancestor of the Southern Baptist convention.

08:05

Cause 1689 would of course go on to producing the things like the Philadelphia confession, things like that.

08:13

So, so from a traditional perspective, if you want to, if you make traditional mean from the beginning, then you would agree that there was a Calvinist beginning.

08:21

You would just say that.

08:22

Oh yeah.

08:22

Yeah.

08:22

Southern Baptist, Southern Baptists were definitely more Calvinistic in the beginning.

08:27

The, the, the original, you know, fledgling group of pastors that got together were almost exclusively Calvinist from my understanding.

08:34

Sure.

08:34

And, uh, so that, that was, uh, I'm glad you explained sort of the difference of where you are and you, you mentioned Pelagius.

08:42

I didn't, I just want to make that clear.

08:44

Well, it's a well-known, it's a kind of well-known boogeyman kind of a label thrown out there.

08:49

And I understand, again, I understand why we're accused of that.

08:52

I think when you understand the historical use of that term, however, it becomes pretty clear that we don't hold to what's popularly known as Pelagianism or even semi-Pelagianism and, uh, Dr.

09:04

Adam Harwood, Dr.

09:05

Allen, uh, David Allen from, uh, originally from Southwestern when he wrote the article and Dr.

09:11

Harwood from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, both written articles explaining historically why a traditional Southern Baptist wouldn't fall within that category of even semi-Pelagian, much less Pelagian.

09:22

Gotcha.

09:22

And you mentioned a book on your show when you were, uh, when I was listening, uh, about, I think it was a lady who wrote a book on Pelagius giving some more, uh, uh, original sources.

09:33

Yeah.

09:33

I'm actually interested, uh, in, in that only because I do want to represent the, uh, any side that I present, I want to represent fairly and I think we all should.

09:44

Yeah.

09:44

And what she's, and she's from more of this academic scholarly world.

09:48

She's not even in the Baptist world at all.

09:49

I don't even think she even knows what Baptist believe in particular.

09:53

Um, and so she's really writing from just a purely historical perspective, studying the actual writings of Pelagius and realizing that even Augustine admitted that he, uh, that he accused Pelagius of beliefs that he did not actually hold to, uh, Augustine actually comes out and confesses, well, okay.

10:11

It's, it's true that Pelagius didn't believe these things, but they're still heresies.

10:14

So we need to condemn them is basically, he confesses that three different in three different writings, in fact.

10:20

And so what she's coming out and just showing is that what is known as Pelagianism today wasn't actually taught at least by Pelagius himself, though it may have been taught by, you know, other people during that time, but it was not taught by Pelagius.

10:33

Okay.

10:33

Well, fair enough.

10:34

I look forward to reading it and getting that information.

10:36

I appreciate you, uh, you putting that out there.

10:38

Uh, you also mentioned on Soteriology 101 on the video that I was watching, um, that you do other things.

10:46

And, uh, that, that was something that I was, I was actually glad to hear because I want to say you are very prolific in your distribution of videos.

10:56

You, you, and even responding to somebody like me who is, you know, I don't have a name in the world, you know, I'm just, you know, people know me as the funny Calvinist, because I make funny videos, you know, and you're responding to me, which I wasn't upset about.

11:09

Like I said, I just wanted to know, should I respond? How should I respond? And I was thankful, you know, that I had the opportunity to talk to you and have this conversation, but you, you mentioned you do other things.

11:19

So what are those other things? Yeah.

11:22

Despite what some Calvinists may think, I wasn't born in, in 2015, uh, when that's when the podcast started, um, actually end of 2014.

11:30

Um, I, I was working for Texas Baptist, just like I am now in the field of evangelism and apologetics.

11:36

Uh, back then I was actually youth evangelism director and now I'm the evangelism director, but, um, working in the same field, still doing the same kinds of, of conferences and trainings that I did back then, uh, haven't lessened up on that, maybe even actually increased since that time, uh, in my evangelism and apologetic training and ministries and the work that I do, it'd be almost like if, if one of your listeners, Keith had a, you know, uh, an affinity for golf and you started your own page on the fundamentals of golf, and then people started showing up because it became more and more popular instead.

12:07

Why do you only talk about golf? Is golf all you ever do? And that that's kind of the way I feel sometimes when people critique the way in which we're doing sociology 101.

12:15

The reason I created its own page is because this is a hot button topic that oftentimes can overrun and, and, and kind of become the focus of any page.

12:25

And I don't want that on my personal Facebook page.

12:28

I don't want that on my evangelism and apologetic ministry pages.

12:31

I created it separately.

12:32

In fact, when that bleeds over into those pages, I usually delete and sometimes even have to block people who keep making everything about the, the sociology debate, because I created a page so that it could stay as an intramural intervarsity, uh, you know, uh, discussion over here.

12:49

And sometimes I can understand it gets the impression, this is all ever talks about, and this is all he ever does.

12:56

And he's just only focused on this one.

12:58

I have a lot of contributors helping out.

12:59

A lot of people repost stuff.

13:01

Caleb is re re uh, producing videos from old content weekly.

13:06

Um, there's some weeks I don't do anything, uh, with sociology 101.

13:10

And there's other weeks when I do two or three videos in one week because I have the time off or whatever.

13:14

And so, um, I understand the perception that this is just all I do or that I'm obsessed with this.

13:19

I get it because maybe that's all, you know, about me or that's all you're seeing, but I'm trying to be real clear to express that this is not the main thing.

13:28

This is not even the thing I spend the most time on in my life.

13:32

It's probably the least of the three jobs, four jobs, really four jobs that I have.

13:37

This is probably the least amount of time that I've spent on this one.

13:39

And the reason that I point that out, uh, Keith is I think this is important is that I really think that you can become obsessed with these kinds of discussions and debates to the point where it consumes your heart.

13:53

It consumes the way in which you treat other brothers.

13:55

It consumes the way in which you engage the text and you engage with church.

14:01

And that's not healthy.

14:02

And so I try, I'm trying to do better on the sociology pages to put more of the stuff out there that I'm doing over here and over here.

14:10

Um, you know, and sometimes I like to keep it focused on what it's supposed to be focused on, but at the same time, I can see that there's sometimes unhealthy balance that people aren't perceiving.

14:23

There's more to life than this discussion.

14:26

And you need to see that we're also doing other parts of ministry and life outside of sociology 101.

14:32

It's funny that you say that.

14:34

Cause we, you know, we have people visit our church and they, knowing that we're a reformed Calvinistic church, they'll come in and they'll listen to me preach for weeks and weeks and they're like, Hey, you haven't mentioned Calvinism.

14:43

I'm like, yeah, we, uh, cause I'm not, you know, it's, it's, it doesn't have to deal with whatever text I'm in.

14:49

And so they're like, yeah, but you're, you know, your, your shows conversation with the Calvinist.

14:53

I know that that name has a history and there's a reason why.

14:57

Uh, and I don't even think I shared that with you, but there was a local Baptist minister who called me a Calvinist in public.

15:04

And I just thought it was funny because I wasn't a title I was using, but it wasn't in accordance with my theology.

15:10

So it just sort of became like, I guess I'm the, I guess I'm the neighborhood Calvinist and it sort of just became like a joke and it became the show.

15:17

And that's where it's at.

15:18

So it's not, you know, I have had people not want to come on the show because of the title.

15:21

So that is tough, but, but again, it does have a history and a meaning.

15:25

And I don't deny, obviously that I hold to that soteriology, but, um, the, the thing I wanted to, you, you, you drive to a good point and that leads me to the second thing I wanted to talk about.

15:36

And that is how you are perceived by Calvinists.

15:40

Um, I, I do think that there are those who perceive you as being somewhat vicious.

15:45

Now, I'm not saying that you are vicious.

15:47

I'm saying, I think you're perceived that way.

15:49

And then the conversation we had, you know, on the phone the other day, you sort of mentioned that, that you, you, that, that there's a, there's a, there's an online persona that people have of you that you, that you think is a little unfair, and I would say having talked to you, I think it is, that's probably very true.

16:05

So speak to that for just a minute.

16:07

Well, because, because I'm talking about a controversial issue, I'm going to have enemies, you know, I'm going to, and I say enemy in a, even in a friendly way, people who are going to disagree with me.

16:20

And so they are going to be looking for opportunities to point out those areas where I have fallen, you know, or I've messed up.

16:28

And so if, if I come across really, um, angry at a time, or I'm trying to really speak, uh, in a, in a strong tone, or, you know, maybe even I'm responding to somebody who's being really, really rude or mean to me, then they'll clip that out and put it on Twitter as if this is the way that I always respond to everybody, um, or, or something like that.

16:49

And so you can do that with anybody.

16:51

Uh, it's just like they do in politics where they grab the, the, every fumble, you know, and every misstep of a president and, and playing like he's a doofus and he's always making these mistakes all the time.

17:03

Um, you know, people, people do that to each other online, unfortunately.

17:07

And so, yeah, I would say our current president does a pretty good job of that on his own, not to be, I know we are to pray, we are to pray for him and we should pray for him, but, but he does gaffe quite a bit.

17:21

Yeah.

17:22

Right.

17:22

And even, and it even seems worse when you, when you clip all those things together and you put them in a one, uh, you know, thing and keep showing them over and over again, it's going to make it sound like that's all he does.

17:32

But, uh, you know, make gas.

17:34

And, and so that, that's the kind of thing that that's the one, I guess, downside of social media stuff is that you can, you can grab clips of people out of their context and make them pretty much sound or say what, like whatever you want them to.

17:49

And, and I think Christians should be at a higher level of discord than that.

17:53

Personally.

17:53

I don't think that's the way we should try to engage.

17:55

I think we should assume the best about our brothers and sisters in Christ and, and, and try to represent them as fairly as possible.

18:02

Dr.

18:02

Tim Stratton, who I work with at Trinity, um, he talks about still moaning, still manning your opponent versus straw manning your opponent.

18:09

Meaning, uh, look at the very best possible meaning of what they're saying versus tried to read something nefarious into their words.

18:17

Uh, those kinds of things.

18:19

And, and, and many people that are critiquing me online in a way have only heard about me through my opponents, um, or through clips they've that been, you know, purposely pulled out, uh, you know, reposted on Twitter versus actually going and listening to, or reading me for themselves like, like you have, and I think just as I think you found out, once you reach out and get to know me, you realize I'm a pretty average brother that loves the Lord, just like you do like joking.

18:47

Uh, I like making fun of myself and others and having a good time.

18:50

My best friend, two of my best friends in the world, uh, lean Calvinistically.

18:54

We, we joke and have fun with it all the time.

18:57

Um, you, you seem to me to have a lot of the same kind of spirit as my friends do that real life friends, meaning like my, my people that I actually hang out with who know the real latent flowers behind the scenes.

19:09

Um, you seem to have the same kind of spirit.

19:10

They do, um, jovial and, and have, have a good time, make fun of yourself as well as others, and, and don't treat people who disagree with you as if they're nefarious, sneaky snakes that are trying to, you know, uh, deceive the entire Christian race or something.

19:25

So, uh, that's, that's one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation because I think sometimes we need to lower the temperature in the room, so to speak, and, and realize, Hey, we're all human, we all make mistakes and, uh, we, we can learn to, to be gracious towards one another, even if we disagree over theological issues.

19:43

Amen.

19:43

And, and, and, and I, you've said it a few times, but I just, you know, to clarify you, you, you, you would say that a Calvinistic understanding person is still a brother in Christ or can be, I know you don't know, put somebody's heart, you don't know someone's heart, but you wouldn't say that that makes somebody unsaved.

20:00

Yeah, no, absolutely.

20:01

That, I mean, this is, I don't think I lost my salvation for 10 years when I adopted, you know, more of a tulip, uh, systematic way of understanding sociology.

20:09

I mean, and I know, and I don't think that my family members who are Calvinist and my best friends who are Calvinist have lost their salvation or don't, aren't really saved because they have a different way of interpreting these texts.

20:20

Um, I, I say that on so many broadcasts and so many programs, and it just baffles me when I see the accusation on Twitter and other places that paint me as if I believe that because someone's a Calvinist, I must believe they're unsaved.

20:34

I mean, I've talked about how much I admire MacArthur and Piper almost sometimes to, to the chagrin of my listeners.

20:41

I mean, where people, why, why do you talk so highly about Piper? I mean, you know, he's a heretic and all these kinds of things.

20:47

I, I still listen to, I, Tim Keller is one of my favorite pastors to download and listen to, to this day, I have just listened to two sermons of his in a, in a walk that I, I mean, I, I still listen to Calvinists and enjoy most, I'd say 95, maybe there's 5%, maybe five points I don't agree with.

21:05

Um, that, that, uh, that I would, I would contend with on some level, but for the most part, I, I really have a huge amount of respect for a lot of my Calvinistic friends and, and the pastors that, uh, lead in the Calvinistic, uh, resurgence.

21:18

Uh, there's a lot of, uh, a lot of respect there.

21:21

I, I cut my theological teeth on R.C.

21:23

Sproul, uh, listening to his little Ligonier tapes that were sent to me, uh, monthly and, um, and, and so, you know, I, I disagree with him now, but the reason I love and, and, you know, you know, love theology so much is largely because of the influence that R.C.

21:40

Sproul had on me.

21:41

And so I, I still can have a deep appreciation for him.

21:44

I can have a deep appreciation for the institutes of the Christian religion, which I've talked about.

21:47

I have a deep, um, appreciation for the writings of Augustine.

21:52

He was a genius.

21:53

I mean, so was Calvin.

21:55

Doesn't mean that I agree with everything they said, but I, I can, I can, uh, acknowledge the way in which the Holy Spirit used them as, as people throughout Christian history as a part of the great cloud of witnesses that have gone before us while acknowledging, I think they made errors on these points.

22:11

Um, and, and that's, uh, I think perfectly acceptable within the body of Christ to, to be able to still show admiration and respect or somebody while disagreeing with certain aspects of their theology.

22:24

Amen.

22:24

Amen.

22:25

Now, when I mentioned about people being vicious, I do think that there are people on both sides of this argument who do try to find ways to intentionally dig.

22:39

And you, you, you mentioned about like people going on your personal page and posting things.

22:44

And I, you know, I think that we, you and I both as, as maybe in this, in this, in this interview, representatives of both sides would repudiate that to repudiate the personal attacks, the, the, the, the ugly things.

22:57

And I did ask you beforehand if I could show this.

22:59

So I am going to show it with having asked your permission.

23:02

Cause I didn't want any, I didn't, I'm not a shock jock, you know, throw things out.

23:07

I always like to make sure my guests are well-treated, but this is an example of something that just happened to me a few days ago.

23:14

I was, uh, I was doing a funeral.

23:15

I said, I said about to preach the gospel to a grieving family.

23:18

They lost a son at 41 years.

23:20

May God be glorified.

23:22

And may we never forget that none of us are guaranteed another day.

23:26

Trust Christ today.

23:27

So I use this as an opportunity on Twitter to simply say, you know, he's 41 years old.

23:32

I'm 42.

23:32

I could die tomorrow.

23:33

And God, um, you know, God is, uh, I need to trust Christ today.

23:38

I don't need to put it off any longer.

23:40

If I, if I have been.

23:41

And the response, and I didn't put the person's name up.

23:44

Anybody can go to my Twitter if they want to find out who it was, but, but I didn't want to do that.

23:47

And he says, just tell them that it was God's will for their son to die.

23:50

That should cheer them right up.

23:52

Works every time, praise his name.

23:54

And I thought to myself, you know, that's one, I do believe in one sense that God numbers our days.

24:03

He fashions them before we are born.

24:05

I can, I can affirm that, but I don't have to walk into a funeral and hit somebody with that theological truth when I know they're grieving.

24:13

And, and maybe you see that differently.

24:14

Maybe you understand that text differently, but that's, but, but at the end of the day, that seemed like a cheap shot to me and do you agree with that? Or do you think.

24:22

Yeah, no, I agree.

24:23

I think especially funerals, you know, um, you know, using theologizing people in their pain, or I have it happen all the time where I'll post something about, Hey, I'm about to preach at so-and-so Baptist church, you know, pray for God to move.

24:36

And then somebody say, don't you already believe that God's going to move equally, no matter what you pray.

24:41

And I was like, okay, I mean, I'm not trying to get into a theological debate.

24:45

I'm just asking people to pray for, for me as I go to speak here.

24:49

Come on, let's not make this a theology debate.

24:51

Um, but I understand it.

24:53

It's social media, people who are sitting in their parents' basements, so to speak, and sometimes have nothing better to do, but to, uh, nitpick people in their everyday lives while they're trying to make an impact and a difference in the world.

25:06

Um, they're just going to do that.

25:07

And I'm not saying that everybody who makes, you know, snarky comments is necessarily, uh, relegated to their parents' basement, but you, you get my point.

25:15

Sometimes they act as, as one who's as mature as one who might be a teenager in the basement of their parents versus someone who's acting like a Christ follower and recognizing there's a right time and a right place, uh, to, to, to make comments.

25:30

And, and I think we probably all made errors along the way in doing that, where we, we fire off something.

25:35

We think is supposed to be tongue in cheek or funny or snarky, uh, to a friend or maybe, uh, you know, an opponent online and it ends up landing wrong, uh, or taken the wrong way.

25:46

And, and I've done that before where I've, uh, that sounded a lot more, you know, snarky or mean than I thought a minute, a minute to be kind of funny, kind of a joke and it, it came across wrong or they took it really badly.

25:58

And, um, and then I, then I regret having, having sent it at all.

26:01

I've had those moments before.

26:03

Uh, and so that, that's just a part of, I think, online engagement sometimes.

26:09

Well, I do appreciate, you know, our conversations in that you have mentioned that you, you, you, you spend a lot of time encouraging people on your side of the aisle to be gracious.

26:18

And I really do too.

26:20

You know, part of, part of even my funny videos that I make, I tease everybody and people know that part of my, part of my ministry is, um, I'm in the, I'm in the line of guys like Dennis Swanberg.

26:31

And I don't know if you remember him.

26:32

Dennis Swanberg was a Christian comedian.

26:34

I loved him.

26:35

He was called the minister of encouragement.

26:36

And I kind of liked that title.

26:38

I wish I could take up the mantle of minister of encouragement because I love that, that title.

26:42

And I do love to make people laugh.

26:44

And I do love to make people, um, you know, uh, to encourage people, even when I'm poking fun at them, uh, it is, you know, with a twinkle in the eye and, and, and, you know, uh, except for the United Methodists, maybe I am a little harder on them.

27:00

But yeah, well, uh, I still love them.

27:03

I just, I can't always get down with what they're doing.

27:06

Uh, for sure.

27:07

That's that's what we, we, as Southerners, we just say, well, bless their heart.

27:10

And that's right.

27:10

That's right.

27:11

That's right.

27:12

Bless their heart.

27:15

Well, speaking of funny stuff, you were willing to do a video with me.

27:19

And this is one of the little skits that I do and I'm going to play it.

27:22

It's only, uh, it's only a minute and a half.

27:24

I, for those who haven't seen it, and I don't know many who have seen it, cause I've gotten a lot of responses from this video, but, but just in case somebody hasn't seen it, cause I do want to talk about it for just a second.

27:33

I'm going to play it.

27:34

I'm going to pull it up here into the stream and let those at home.

27:37

And if you're listening to it, you'll still get the idea.

27:39

Oh.

27:40

And by the way, how this came about, um, when I first started talking to Leighton, he sent me his phone number and my wife immediately, when she saw that I had his number, my phone, she says, you got to prank call him.

27:51

If you have Leighton, you have.

27:52

And so we thought this would be a funny video to make.

27:56

I'll be ready to go in just a minute.

27:57

I just got something to do real quick.

27:59

You're right out.

28:01

Here we go.

28:06

Leighton.

28:11

Greetings, valued customer.

28:13

This is your wireless provider.

28:15

We're calling to test out your line.

28:17

Yeah, sounds good.

28:18

What can I do for you? Thank you.

28:19

I just need you to repeat a few phrases for me.

28:22

Uh, yeah, no problem.

28:23

Glad to help.

28:24

Okay.

28:24

Here's the first one.

28:25

The funny clown ran around.

28:28

Uh, okay.

28:30

The funny clown ran around.

28:34

Thank you, sir.

28:35

Now say this.

28:37

God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.

28:47

What? Sir, please just repeat the line.

28:51

No, I'm not going to say that.

28:52

Okay.

28:53

How about this? John Calvin is my homeboy.

28:56

Okay.

28:56

Who's this? Gotcha.

29:07

Yes.

29:07

Hello, sir.

29:08

Is your refrigerator running? Oh, if it is, do you want me to run and catch it? No, I want you to give glory to God because he's the one who ordained for it to run.

29:17

Who is this? Dr.

29:20

White.

29:21

Is that you again? Okay.

29:27

So real quick, uh, I got a text message from Dr.

29:31

White and he said, how did you get him to do that? That was his response.

29:36

What was shocking to me was some of the people that said it must be a lookalike because you know, like I would never do do that.

29:43

I was like, you guys think I'm just this horrible mean guy that would never like have fun with people.

29:48

I, I mean, I don't, people just, some people just don't know me, I guess.

29:52

Do you know who Nate Bargatze is the comedian? I've heard that name, but I don't, I don't, if I saw him, I remember him.

30:01

Why made this meme with a picture of you? And just to say this was the lookalike.

30:08

Oh, a little bit, a lot of people, you know, there's a guy on a British, some British, uh, cook off or something.

30:15

Somebody who says like, uh, like Hollywood, I think his name's Hollywood or something that everybody says I look like, and then there's this, some other guy that's on some other show that everybody says I look like.

30:24

So I don't, I guess I have one of those faces.

30:27

Absolutely.

30:28

Also, I do have a couple of quick things I want to show.

30:30

This is a, this is a meme that someone made because they said, oh, you're getting friendly with Layton flowers.

30:36

And so this was the meme, which was, you know, the, the, the, the alpha Omega would get mad because I'm looking at, you know, soteriology and I was like, nah, that's not right, but, but, and then of course the, the, when you, when I saw that I was on soteriology one-on-one, I made this one, which is, uh, you know, when you're excited to be the, the reason for soteriology one-on-one video, all right.

31:00

So, well, and I think, you know, you, you mentioned James White.

31:03

I mean, I see him do little boxing things with Michael Brown, you know, they're, they're joking with each other and making fun.

31:10

I mean, he's got his group of friends that he does that kind of thing with that, that disagree with him on, on theological issues.

31:15

And so, uh, and, and so I imagine James White has a good personality, uh, with a sense of humor with those kinds of things too, with the right people, you know, and sometimes if you get off the wrong foot with somebody, you end up, you know, becoming more, there's more animosity towards certain groups.

31:33

Of people, uh, versus others for whatever reason.

31:37

But, um, but I think in the right circumstances, the right situation, any two Christian brothers, I mean, if you're both regenerate sons of the living God, you should be able to find a common ground and an avenue to be able to, you know, to, to show respect and love for each other.

31:52

Uh, which I think is usually the case, especially when you get offline and you get in, in person, you actually have a conversation with people.

32:00

Uh, you're, you're able to kind of get past some of those differences.

32:04

Absolutely.

32:05

Now, before we move on to the next segment, I do have to do one more bit of housekeeping and that is, I have some crew members on the show who come on with me all the time.

32:15

Jake Korn, Rich Roden and Matthew Henson are called the CWAC crew.

32:19

CWAC is conversation with the Calvinist and, and Jake will kill me if I don't say this, because he has asked me several times, he has tag groups.

32:28

And I don't know if you know what a tag group is on Facebook, but that's where people will leave a little tag.

32:33

Like if they get into an argument, they'll just leave this tag and it, and it just tags back to a group.

32:38

And he told me that he wants you to be in his tag group.

32:40

And the tag group is called, um, we get it.

32:43

You get your soteriology from soteriology 101.

32:46

And, and, and so, yeah, cause that's like, like we get it.

32:49

That's, that's where you, that's where you, that's where you're coming from.

32:52

So he said, uh, he wants to formally invite you into his tag group because he thinks that would be great.

32:58

And now that I've said it, I have, I have met my requirement for Jake who asked me to, to say that to you.

33:05

So, yeah.

33:06

And, uh, and I understand some of the times the sentiment of people, but I think of many of the guys who are online defending their particular views, many of them messaged me about how, you know, Hey, I've held this for such a long time, or I believe this for so long.

33:21

And you finally kind of given a voice to some of the things I've already held to and believed.

33:25

And I think that's where most of, at least the more avid or, uh, prolific type of followers, uh, you know, are those who are advocating for my position.

33:36

And some of them disagree with me.

33:37

I mean, we, we may disagree on perseverance for example, or the concept of once saved, always saved, which by the way, I don't, I don't like that terminology either, but, um, we may different, uh, have different differences on what prevenient grace entails, um, for example.

33:51

Um, but we, we hold to some of the, the, the similar perspectives with regard to our disagreements with Calvinists.

33:57

And so, um, so lumping everybody in together, just like Calvinists don't like to be all lumped in together, uh, because they're not monolithic.

34:04

I think the same is probably true of the traditional Southern Baptists as well as, uh, the, you know, the, the typical provisionist online.

34:12

Sure.

34:12

I found this great quote.

34:13

This was a Spurgeon quote.

34:15

I'm going to throw up here on the screen and it just regarded his feelings about Wesleyans and I know you're not Wesleyan, so this is a bit of a, you know, difference, but I, but in earlier, when I asked you about Calvinists, if you thought they were Christians, I thought I, I want to also, I know, I know the quote you're about to use, and I actually used it in one of my blog articles as well, so yeah.

34:35

Okay.

34:35

So you're familiar.

34:36

Yeah.

34:37

He says, although upon doctrines of grace, our views differ from those avowed by Arminian Methodists.

34:42

We have usually found that on the great evangelical truths, we are in full agreement and we have been comforted by the belief that Wesleyans were solid upon the central doctrines.

34:54

And I wanted to share that because I know that as much as you're going to get some grief, probably for maybe coming on a show called Conversation with a Calvinist, or maybe there's going to be people who leave some comments for you.

35:05

There's going to be people on my side who say, why were you so nice? Why weren't you just, you know, why didn't you go for the throat? Why didn't you go for the jugular? And, and that was not my intention today.

35:13

My intention was to have a conversation about the areas where we may disagree, where we may agree, and to have people see that when I engaged you, it was a, it was actually not a negative experience.

35:28

It was, it was positive.

35:29

And even though we'll, we'll probably end still having many of the same disagreements that we began with, we can do that in a way that is God honoring.

35:38

And that's what I hope.

35:38

You won't, you won't be alone in that because I think at this point in the ministry of Sociology 101, the number one critique that I have on my side chat during live chats or in the, the, the, the chats under, underneath the comments underneath, the number one critique I get are from people who agree with me, who think I'm being too nice to Calvinists, who think I'm not being harsh enough and calling them out for being a heretic or all these kinds of things, that's the number one critique by far of all the critiques I get.

36:13

And so and, and by the way, there's a lot of comments that are automatically deleted because of language and all kinds of other stuff that people don't even know about, but you can't police everybody who claims to be a quote unquote follower of your, your beliefs.

36:28

And so some people claim to be a provisionist or traditional Southern Baptist or whatever it is who act the fool.

36:34

You know, they're not representative of me, um, even any more so than the fools out there under the name banner of Calvinist are representing you, Keith.

36:43

And so I think we, we, we should keep that in mind when we're having dialogues online with various people who may not be at the maturity level to be at the adult table and conversations with regard to, um, uh, you know, our disagreements, some people rather be at the children's table where there's food fights and, and I get it, food fights are kind of fun.

37:02

Um, and so, you know, it can be a lot more fun at the children's table sometimes, but I really do hope that these kinds of conversations with people like you, Keith can, can maybe rise a level, raise the level of discourse, uh, and, and not just assume that the person on the other side is a nefarious sneaky snake that's trying to deceive everybody, but that we just have, you know, uh, disagreements about how we understand certain passages of scripture and their honest disagreements.

37:29

Uh, we can still love each other and we can still worship with each other and agree with each other on most other things, but just, just, uh, disagree, uh, and even strongly disagree.

37:39

I mean, we can, I mean, neither one of us are weak about what we believe neither one of us are Namby Pamby about our, our stated belief systems.

37:47

Um, but that doesn't mean you can't be, uh, gracious towards the, uh, the other person, even when we're talking to atheists for goodness sake.

37:55

Um, even when I think of that, dr.

37:56

White's debates with Muslims, um, he shows them respect while he's doing it.

38:02

Um, how much more so should we do that for brothers and sisters in Christ? Uh, who have a different, you know, sociological view than we do.

38:09

And I think that's important.

38:11

Yeah.

38:11

And I, I mean, and as a reform guy, I spent a lot of my time with Presbyterians and we have an entirely different understanding of God's covenant in regard to our children and who belongs in the new covenant.

38:24

And yet even with that pretty substantial divide, we hold hands and do things together all the time.

38:31

So, yeah, I mean, uh, and, um, in fact, uh, that's, that's, that's something that is often, uh, uh, I like to point out to people, you know, I can go and I can go and worship in a Presbyterian church if I'm out of town and that's the church that's nearby and we can go, but I can also go to a Southern Baptist church that isn't Calvinistic and I can worship there too.

38:51

And I can enjoy, uh, being a part of God's people wherever they're at.

38:56

And, um, yeah.

38:57

All right.

38:58

Well, I want to, uh, move on now to our main topic because, uh, we've, we've had a good conversation now.

39:04

I've been going for about, well, we've been going for a good little while, but, uh, I do want, I, when you said in your, uh, video that you did other things, one of the things you said was that you are the director of evangelism for Texas Baptists.

39:19

Now, is that the Texas Baptist Association? What is that? Is that, what's Texas Baptist? Yeah.

39:24

Texas Baptist, it's also known as the Baptist General Convention of Texas.

39:27

Um, it is a denomination that oversees the work in, uh, Texas, Southern Baptist in Texas.

39:34

Um, now there are two conventions in Texas since the late 1990s, there was a split.

39:38

Um, and so there's two conventions where the original one that was there before and the larger of the two, if that helps people to know which one we are.

39:47

Um, but even, even Texas Baptist, because Texas is just a huge state, um, the size of Texas Baptist is almost half the size of the entire SBC, if that gives you any kind of indication of, of the size of, of Texas Baptist.

40:01

And so we're, and we do have people who are outside the state of Texas who are part of our GC2.

40:07

It's a great, uh, the great commandment, great commission, uh, called GC2, um, who are part of what we're doing and the missions that we do worldwide and the things that we do around the state of Texas as well as, uh, as around the world.

40:19

Um, and so, yeah, that's, that's been my main job even long before, uh, before ever starting this podcast and, and is really my passion.

40:28

It's, it's been my kind of the, the driving, you know, uh, theme of my life and ministry, uh, is evangelism.

40:36

And in even more recently in the last five, 10 years, uh, apologetics being added, uh, to that.

40:42

And so that, that's just a real, uh, huge part of the emphasis.

40:45

That's why we kind of laugh when, when people are accused us of accused me of being a, you know, the one string banjo, like this is the only, I even got my little one string banjo here.

40:53

Um, because my wife, when I was accused of saying that my wife goes, I wish you only had one string, have a little bit more time because I teach at Trinity.

41:02

Uh, I am the director of evangelism and apologetics.

41:04

Uh, you know, I have four children.

41:06

I do so many other things outside of sociology 101.

41:09

Um, and, and the, the, the time that I spend talking about Calvinism is usually limited to when I'm sitting in this seat, uh, you know, talking about, you know, in specific sociology 101 and confronting this particular issue.

41:23

Nice.

41:24

And, uh, I don't want to get into too, too much particular, but you said there was a split.

41:28

What the split didn't happen to deal with a van with a, with a Calvinism.

41:32

Did it? No, no, no, no.

41:33

It was, it was more of a moderate versus, uh, you know, the fundamentals conservative split, that kind of thing back in the conservative resurgence days.

41:41

I think the way that, that, that worked.

41:43

And, and I think more of the, the split in Texas was more about Texans being told to sign a document in Texans.

41:49

Don't like to be told to do anything.

41:51

And so a lot of, a lot of Texas Baptist refused to sign the document, even though theologically they may have agreed with much of what the document, if not all of what the document said, they just don't like to be credal and they don't like to be told to sign something.

42:03

And so I think some of the split happened because the convention as a whole, the big convention was trying to tell all the smaller conventions, here's what you have to do.

42:12

And Texas was just like, you can't tell me what to do.

42:15

So I think that's, I think that's a big part of why the split happened in the first place.

42:18

It's a power, you know, power struggle that those kinds of things happen.

42:22

Gotcha.

42:23

Well, a mutual friend, Andrew Rappaport, um, said that you really shine in the area of evangelism and he's a, and he's Calvinistic in his, uh, in his soteriology, but he said that I met him last week and he said that about you.

42:39

So that made me think that what we had decided to discuss, cause we had talked about that before, about this beforehand was really, you know, was really a good decision.

42:48

So, um, as a director of evangelism, um, are you, are you in charge of actually instructing people how to share the gospel? Or is that just, you're setting up events, crusades, things like that.

43:00

What is your, what do you do? Yeah, the answer to that is yes, all of the above.

43:04

And so there's, sometimes there's individual churches who ask us and I say us, you have a staff, there's eight people on my, on my team, uh, the evangelism team there for Texas Baptist.

43:14

And so one of us may go to a church to do individual training.

43:17

Um, I'm often called in to do something like that.

43:20

Um, we also coordinate events, the unapologetic conference.

43:23

In fact, we just had in St.

43:24

Marcos had about five, 600 people in attendance there.

43:28

I work with Eric Hernandez, who's our lead apologist in coordinating those.

43:32

Um, uh, we had the statewide evangelism conference in San Antonio, uh, with over a thousand, uh, registrants there.

43:38

Um, that's where, uh, Dr.

43:40

Tony Evans spoke as our keynote speaker, along with Shane Pruitt from NAM and many other, uh, great, great apologist and evangelist.

43:47

Was this the, was that the recent, cause I saw a clip from Tony Evans recently where he, he was really coming strong on, uh, uh, Oh goodness.

43:56

I don't remember this.

43:57

I didn't mean to interrupt you.

43:58

I'm sorry, but I saw a really good clip from him recently.

44:00

It may have been that event.

44:01

I'm not sure if it was or not, but yeah, he, he did a great job for us there in San Antonio.

44:06

Um, and we're looking to be back in San Antonio and, uh, in January of next year.

44:11

Uh, it looks like we might get Steven Curtis Chapman.

44:13

We're still working on that as a, as one of our, not only song leaders, but also just communicators, uh, with, you know, sharing your faith through music.

44:21

And, um, and so, uh, those are the kinds of event things that we coordinate.

44:25

Uh, there's also individual trainings, uh, where we'll go into a church and sometimes we'll do a two or three day seminar on evangelism training.

44:33

Uh, very rarely does the topic of sociology even come up in those kinds of trainings, occasionally because of what I do, a church will contact me and have me come speak directly on that topic.

44:43

But I, I kind of pick and choose, uh, you know, when, when and where I do that, just because that's not really my full-time job.

44:49

And so, um, when I'm available and you know, if it works within my schedule, I'll go do things like that.

44:54

But usually when I'm traveling, especially in Texas, it has to do with training and evangelism and apologetics specifically.

45:01

Gotcha.

45:01

All right.

45:02

So, so I want you to pretend for a moment, I'm, I'm, I'm your student and I want you to tell me how you would teach me.

45:09

Let's say I'm, I'm in your seminar and I know that, I know we don't have time for you to get the whole seminar, but if you were going to say, because I cut my teeth when I was in seminary, there was a TV show called The Way of the Master and Ray Comfort was probably the most influential person in my life for, for several years.

45:27

I would watch his show.

45:29

I would devour his material.

45:30

I've listened to Hell's Best Kept Secret, you know, dozens of times.

45:33

That's his sermon that sort of put him on the map.

45:36

And, um, I, that, my method, if you, if you went out with me evangelizing, you would probably hear Ray, everything short of a New Zealand accent, you would probably hear, uh, coming from me.

45:48

So, um, w w w w my question would be, are, are, are you way different from that? And if so, what are, Yeah, we're, matter of fact, we, we would, we're resourcers.

45:59

You need to talk about denominational workers.

46:01

Um, we're, we're, we're one of those that you, you know, uh, beg, borrow, steal.

46:05

You don't have to be the big wheel.

46:06

In other words, you find the resources that are available for the individual churches that best suit them.

46:11

And one of the things we're, we're kind of known for saying is, you know, when we present all the different tools, like my favorite one verse evangelism, there's three circles, there's the bridge to life.

46:21

There's, I mean, the ABCs of evangelism, the, the, the way of the master, uh, you know, model is another great model.

46:29

Um, all of those, uh, are great.

46:31

We always ask the question, which one is the best? The one you use is what we say that the one you you're willing to use.

46:38

And so everybody has a different personality.

46:40

Everybody connects, you know, differently with different methodology and way in which they connect.

46:46

Uh, learning to share your own testimony is a big part of our training, teaching people how to just have a conversation, a conversation starters, uh, for example.

46:55

Um, uh, even with my own children, I taught them the, the, the acronym firm, F I R M that you always give a firm handshake and you look somebody in the eye to show respect.

47:06

So firm handshake, you look them in the eye and the F stands for family.

47:09

So a lot of people would like to talk about their families.

47:11

So asking about their families, asking them about the eye, their interests, their people's favorite topic is usually themselves.

47:18

And so you ask them what they're interested in.

47:20

If they have hobbies, this, you know, if they play sports or something like that, then you can talk about their relationships, you know, especially if you're talking to someone who's older, they're going to love to talk about their children or their grandchildren.

47:30

Um, you know, you're talking about people who are in relationships as a young adult, you know, are you dating anybody, those kinds of things you can get people talking.

47:37

And by getting people talking, those conversations begin to grow from those conversations.

47:42

And so you, you get to the end and that's when the, the, the, the last question comes in, may I ask you a question? Um, and because you've earned the right to be heard, you're, you're turning that conversation, which is just a casual conversation into a gospel conversation.

47:57

May I ask you a question? And it could be something as simple as, do you believe there's life after Or the conversation may be, may I ask you a question? Do you believe, um, do you believe that Jesus was the son of God? Or where do you go to church even? It could be something as, as non-confrontational as that.

48:17

Do you, do you attend church anywhere in the area? And you're turning a normal conversation into a gospel conversation.

48:24

And a lot of our training just starts there because it's amazing, especially younger generations, uh, haven't, haven't learned just how to have casual conversations with people in order to, to introduce the gospel or to, to be a witness.

48:37

And so that's how that would start.

48:39

And then it's teaching them tools.

48:40

Like we, we've talked about one verse of angelism, uh, which is the Roman 6.23 and walking them through how you would take somebody through the gospel.

48:47

Uh, Roman 6.23 is just a great one because it has kind of the bad news.

48:51

First, the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus, our Lord.

48:56

Walk through how, uh, each one of those words is so important to understand that the meaning behind it and the gospel, what is a wage, something you earn, what is sin, separation from God because of our own wrongdoing, we've all sinned, the way of the master stuff is really good there because it takes you through how you help you get somebody lost before you get them saved.

49:16

You know, that concept of making sure people see the need before you tell them the solution to that need.

49:22

Um, so all those things are, are really a part of our training for individual personal evangelism.

49:27

There's also, you know, mass evangelism training because churches are oftentimes learning how to put on events for themselves because regardless of what some people say, I still think event evangelism works.

49:38

Uh, I think Jesus did event evangelism.

49:40

I think we can be a part of event evangelism.

49:43

Um, and so, uh, there's all kinds of ways, um, to, to win people to, to Christ or to introduce them to the gospel.

49:51

And, and we like to capitalize on, you know, all the means that are available, um, to, to try to help people to be introduced to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

49:59

Obviously in a healthy way.

50:01

Um, we're, we're not promoting manipulation and those kinds of things.

50:04

In fact, we, uh, I speak out pretty vehemently against people who try to manipulate people, uh, in, in gospel proclamation and, and through evangelism.

50:13

Um, but instead, you know, using, uh, proper biblical methodologies to introduce people to Christ.

50:20

And so, and there's, there's three pieces of evangelism.

50:22

We often talk about presence and this would, this would be like being there, you know, meeting their need, just like Jesus, when he goes into their towns or synagogues or villages, healing their need, uh, healing, uh, every disease and sickness.

50:34

So he's, he's present with them in their place and he's meeting their needs.

50:38

He's showing that he loves them.

50:40

That which all goes back to the show them how much they don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care kind of mentality.

50:46

You, you show them that you're present.

50:47

You're there for them.

50:48

It's not just a sales pitch.

50:50

I'm not just here to sell you something and then I'm taking off, but I'm present.

50:54

I'm there for you.

50:56

And then the proclamation.

50:58

In other words, it's not enough just to feed the hungry or to be there with the medical team.

51:03

You need to proclaim the truth.

51:04

You need to tell them who sent you, why you're there, and you need to proclaim the clear, uh, clear and unadulterated word of God.

51:13

You need to make it plain to them, make it, make it where it's simply understood.

51:17

Leave them with a new Testament, leave them with a track, something that they can take with them when they leave that place.

51:23

And then finally per persuasion, which is where apologetics comes in.

51:27

We have really good reasons for why we believe what we believe, helping people to know those things.

51:32

I think is, is really helps drive the roots down deep and for, for people to understand that not only we're not only going to say, well, you should believe in Jesus, but here's why you should believe in Jesus.

51:43

Uh, here's evidence of his resurrection.

51:45

Here's things we know from even extra biblical sources that validate what we're saying and what the Bible says.

51:53

And, and this sometimes helps people get over the hurdles that may be keeping them from the faith by understanding that persuasion, in fact, uh, persuasion is mentioned almost three times more often than the word predestination in the Bible, and yet it gets a fraction of the attention.

52:07

And so I really do think that we as brothers and sisters in Christ evangelists need to talk more about persuasion, because that is a part of what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, to persuade people to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God.

52:22

Yeah.

52:22

And I want to be clear as a Calvinist, I don't disagree with that because just, just a few weeks ago I was preaching in Colossians where Paul, you know, talks about the danger of persuasive speech.

52:32

And I said, but that doesn't mean all persuasive speech is bad.

52:35

He's talking about the vain philosophers, the deceitful teachers that use persuasive speech to lead you in a wrong path.

52:42

I said, but as evangelists, we are to persuade men.

52:46

That's the, the, the call of, of, of the evangelist is to go and to give a persuasive reason for the belief in Christ.

52:52

And for anybody who would maybe listening to this and say, well, well, but don't you believe God's going to elect who he's going to elect? But we, we would argue, and I know you would disagree with some of this terminology, but we would argue that apologetics and those things are means that God uses to, to draw people to himself.

53:07

So obviously persuasive speech is, is a big part of that.

53:10

Now, I do have a question in regard to your, you talked about event evangelism and you said manipulation.

53:18

I've, we've actually, my family and I have recently seen that sort of firsthand, sort of what we thought was more sort of a manipulative tactic.

53:25

And I don't want to get into it because it's a local thing that happened and I'm not certainly here to, you know, throw anybody under the bus.

53:31

But why do you think that the manipulation is, is the way that it is in churches? And I know you may not have a great answer for this.

53:42

I'm sorry if it sounds like a weird question, but, but, but do you think that it, that, that it is because we have cheapened the gospel and made it into a product to be sold? Is that, maybe I'm leading the question there.

53:54

Yeah, I think so.

53:55

I think sometimes people get the wrong impression to say, well, if, if, you know, if we make the gospel sound too hard, if we make, if we make following Christ sound, you know, unappealing, then the young people just aren't going to want to have anything to do with it.

54:09

And so we need to make it, we need to soft sell it.

54:12

We need to make it sound really something desirable.

54:16

And, and we just need to leave out the wrath part.

54:18

We need to leave out the sin part.

54:20

We need to leave out the stuff that could cause people discomfort.

54:23

And let's just talk about the health, wealth, prosperity part of, of the gospel and the good, you know, salvation part of it.

54:30

And let's just leave out all the, the negative side of, of the, you know, the teaching of scripture.

54:37

And, and the problem is, is that it's, it's not only calling people to a false way of understanding what the gospel is all about, it's also, it's, it's setting them up for disillusionment because if you promise people, you know, all this, you know, you're going to always be happy and, and everything's just pure goodness and no problems at all.

54:56

And when the Bible never says that the Bible says actually quite the opposite, you know, you will suffer for my sake.

55:02

If you follow me, take up your cross.

55:04

And the truth of the matter is Keith, at least a bit of my experience that young people are looking for someone who is preaching a message that's worth dying for, why live for something that's not worth dying for.

55:16

And so you're actually doing just the opposite that you think you're doing by self-selling the gospel, because young people are looking for something that's real and that will actually cost them something.

55:26

And that's what they're going to, that's what they're going to give their lives for.

55:28

They're going to give their lives to follow this.

55:30

It's, it's those people who try to self-sell it and make it sound like just something that you tag onto your life that are actually doing damage to the gospel and future, you know, potential converts, because you're converting them, uh, you know, to a false way of understanding who Christ is and what the gospel calls us to.

55:48

Um, and, and so I think this is why, you know, you know, we as provisionists, those who are not Calvinist, sometimes we're, we're the ones who are the quietest about calling manipulative means out.

56:00

The Calvinist are doing a lot better job calling out, you know, means of manipulation.

56:04

And I think we should be a lot louder calling it out because we actually have a view that, that you could possibly deter people from getting into heaven because of the manipulation you, you, you, you use.

56:15

Whereas a Calvinist would say, obviously everyone who's been elected before the foundations of the world is going to be saved regardless of what manipulation may be used.

56:22

And so if anybody should be sounding the alarm, it should be provisionist and those on the Arminian side, because we actually believe those manipulative means may cause damage to a person's eternal security.

56:33

And so I say we should be sounding the alarm even louder than the Calvinist are, but the Calvinist are doing a better job about sounding that alarm to call people to, uh, preach a full gospel truth, which means you've got to talk about the wages of sin is death before you talk about the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus, our Lord.

56:54

And if you leave off that first sentence and just jump into the second sentence and people are like, okay, what is it I'm being saved from? What, what, what does that even, what are you even talking about? Um, I don't even need to be saved because they don't even know what sin is because sin and wrath aren't even talked about.

57:07

And I think that's dangerous.

57:09

And I think that that can actually lead to false converts and, and, you know, more of a country club type of mentality within the church that that needs to be called out.

57:18

A.W.

57:18

Tozer was very well known for calling that kind of thing out, which is one of the reasons I think a lot of Calvinists like A.W.

57:24

Tozer.

57:25

Um, even though he, he sides more of our, with us on sociology, um, he was really good about calling out that kind of secularizing of the church to the point where it be, you can't distinguish it from the world.

57:38

Um, and, and I, and I think Calvinist have done a better job at calling that out than many people on our side of the aisle.

57:44

It's one of the reasons I was drawn to John MacArthur back.

57:47

I matter of fact, the book that won me into Calvinism was called ashamed of the gospel by John MacArthur, and it was on the pragmatism of the local church.

57:55

And I still happen to agree with John MacArthur on a lot of the points he made about the pragmatism issue.

58:01

Um, while now obviously disagreeing with the Calvinism side of it, but, um, there's a lot of common ground, I think there.

58:08

Sure.

58:09

And, and there is one other, uh, uh, evangelism, as you said, as you were speaking, it made me think of a question because this is something I've learned from, um, like listening to Ray Comfort, but also, um, guys like, I don't even know if you know him, do you know Tony Miano? He's a open air preacher.

58:27

He's, he's a, he's a, uh, a friend.

58:29

I've known him for years.

58:30

And, um, he talks about some of the dangers of what they call friendship evangelism and what are your thoughts about, do you, do you know what he means by that and do you, do you kind of get the idea? I mean, I don't know what he's specifically addressing, so I'd have to probably hear him in context, but sometimes people emphasize so much relational evangelism and to the, to the neglect of any kind of just proclamation, uh, you know, you know, and so they're, they're, they're so high on the, you've got to become their best friend before you even broach the subject.

59:00

And that's not always the case.

59:01

I mean, obviously the apostles didn't always become best buddies with everybody they proclaim the truth to.

59:06

There were times where Peter proclaimed to the 3000 to the thousands when he had an opportunity to proclaim.

59:11

Um, and, and, and, and so too, I'm not a, I'm not an either or type of person.

59:16

I'm a both and.

59:17

There, there needs to be friendship, relational type of personal evangelism where you're investing in the lives of people close to you, neighbors, uh, coworkers, um, family members, people you're with the, the, that needs to be a relational type of evangelism.

59:32

But if you're a, an evangelist by trade, and that's been your call in ministry and you're doing street evangelism or door-to-door evangelism or then evangelism, then your model is going to be different with, with regard to people you're, uh, you're just meeting or that you're drawing together, you know, uh, with some kind of an event.

59:49

And so, um, it's, it's not an either or in my book, it's a both and.

59:54

Yeah.

59:54

And I think one of the things that they, I'm sure you would agree with this is that the, the, one of the dangers is that we, we become friends with our neighbors and then we're afraid to share the gospel because we don't want to mess up the friendship.

01:00:05

So, yeah, you know, cause it's like, who's the hardest person to share the gospel with, right, is your family and friends.

01:00:11

And it's like, so, and the point I think Tony makes well is he says, you know, when he, when he meets people, he tries to, to make that, even if he knows he's going to enter into a relationship with them, whether they're a neighbor or whatever, he tries to be very upfront with his faith and make sure that people know that that's who he is in the beginning so that he doesn't feel like he's having to sneak that in a year later at a barbecue where they're trying to figure it out.

01:00:34

So that was what I meant by the friendship, uh, evangelism and, and, and, um, but, but good thoughts, good points.

01:00:40

Now, one other thing, and then we're going to, I want to, I want to give kind of a teaser, we're going to begin to wrap this up soon and we're actually going to do a second episode, which I'm super excited.

01:00:49

I'm thankful that Leighton has given us the time because we're going to actually talk more about some of our distinctions between our views.

01:00:55

And we're going to listen to some questions from some pastors of a local, uh, or of a conference I went to.

01:01:01

I had each one film a single question for Leighton and we're going to let him answer those questions.

01:01:05

And then I may respond a little bit and interact a little bit with that, but we're going to do that on a second episode.

01:01:10

So just know that this episode will end soon, but then we're going to have another one coming out in just a few days.

01:01:15

So, uh, last thing you mentioned apologetics.

01:01:18

I love apologetics.

01:01:20

I, I, I really credit, um, just early men in my life, in my Christian walk, I got saved when I was 19 who were willing to challenge me on the worldly thinking and, and point me to scripture and, and answer questions that I had about things like age of the earth and all those things, which we all, you know, everybody wrestles with.

01:01:40

And, and I ended up doing my master's thesis on science and the Bible.

01:01:44

And what does the Bible have to say about, uh, biology, cosmology and, um, and geology, that was my, my thesis.

01:01:53

So, so this has been on my heart for a long time.

01:01:55

Uh, but I would find myself now probably more in the camp of the presuppositional side, even though when I teach apologetics in our academy, I teach all three schools, I talk about the evidentialist, I talk about the classical and I talk about the presuppositional and, um, uh, when you do apologetics and when you teach apologetics, do you have a method that you approach it from and why did, why is that the method for you? Yeah.

01:02:22

I mean, I'm more of a classical approach, uh, apologist, um, as is Eric Hernandez, our lead apologist for Texas Baptist.

01:02:29

However, um, we're, we're pretty known for saying we like to use all the tools in the tool belt, so to speak.

01:02:37

Um, and so it's not an either or, uh, for us, it's, it's a both and, uh, approach.

01:02:42

Um, but you know, and I, I just want to say this in our unapologetic conference, I'll name three names, uh, Dan Wallace.

01:02:50

Um, who's a new Testament scholar, you know, XG many people are aware of, uh, Greg Kokel, another well-known apologist, um, and Jay Warner Wallace, all of them lean, I'd say lean Calvinistically, because in my conversations with them, some of them have a little bit differing views, but depending on who you talk to, all of them would consider themselves Calvinist to some degree.

01:03:11

Um, but all were keynote speakers at our unapologetic conferences.

01:03:14

And so, in other words, um, we, we are able to work together as Texas Baptist for the sake of, uh, training and apologetics, even with people who have a different sociological belief than we do.

01:03:27

Um, and so, uh, I'm, I'm just pointing that out because I think sometimes people get the impression because of the dichotomies that are set up online between the differing views that somehow, you know, Calvinist could not be, or would not be good apologists and are good evangelists for that sake, but for that, for that, for, you know, for that matter.

01:03:46

And that's just not been my experience.

01:03:49

Some of the, some of the best evangelists and some of the best apologists that I know, Jay Warner Wallace is right up there at the top of the list for, for me as one of the, uh, the, the presenters that I've been recommending more recently in his person of interest, um, book and in presentation, which if you haven't seen it, wow, it is just incredible.

01:04:08

But, um, but he, he leans more Calvinistically.

01:04:11

Um, and so when people get the mindset or the idea that, that, uh, you know, because somebody holds two different sociology, then therefore they can't be good at X, Y, Z, because somehow it doesn't fit for me.

01:04:22

I mean, I get that argument.

01:04:24

I understand where people are coming from, who are making those kinds of, of, of arguments.

01:04:28

I mean, usually the number one question people ask when they're introduced to Calvinism is, well, then what's the purpose in evangelizing or what's the purpose in apologetics? And, and I understand that, that mindset.

01:04:38

Um, but, but despite how you logically, you know, make that work, uh, within your own mind, there's a lot of Calvinists who are very good apologist and very good evangelists.

01:04:49

And, um, and I think people need to hear that, know that.

01:04:53

Amen.

01:04:54

So last question, and then we're going to begin to, we're going to wrap this up and move to recording the second, the second episode.

01:05:01

Uh, you and I are on the street corner.

01:05:03

We're sharing the gospel.

01:05:04

Is there anything that you think that you would say that I wouldn't say or vice versa? As a Calvinist and an Arminian, where, where would be the, where would be the lines where we would be different? Well, because Calvinism isn't monolithic, um, there are different heights and levels of Calvinism, the different ways in which they define it.

01:05:25

Um, I'm more of an Armeraldian, uh, you know, Bruce Ware type of a Calvinist would be perfectly fine with saying, you know, Christ died for you.

01:05:34

And he would say that to everybody, Christ died for every one of you.

01:05:37

Um, whereas a, maybe a higher five point Calvinist, like, you know, maybe James white, for example, might not want to come right out and say that Christ died for you, but that if you believe then Christ died for you, um, or they would might word it in a different way.

01:05:51

Um, and so that, that might be the only noticeable difference.

01:05:54

I think for the most part, everything else that we would say and how we would say it would be very similar.

01:06:00

Uh, David Allen is kind of known for kind of a tongue in cheek saying that Calvinists have the same vocabulary, but a different dictionary.

01:06:07

Um, and so a lot of the same exact words and verbiage that we would use as, as traditional Southern Baptist or provisionist even, um, might sound exactly the same as a Calvinist who's, you know, bringing, uh, you know, an appeal to the Um, but we might have a little different nuanced meaning behind the words that we're using.

01:06:27

Um, and so that's one of the reasons I think that we can't get along because a lot of the presentation of the things that we're doing, uh, externally sound very much the same, but we may have different meanings behind that, which is not necessarily insignificant.

01:06:40

I think that, uh, you and white and other Calvinists, uh, very strongly disagree with our views on particular issues.

01:06:49

Even though you may be willing to worship with us or call us brothers and the, and the feeling is mutual.

01:06:54

There, there are some things we really think are points worth discussing.

01:06:58

Otherwise I wouldn't have started sociology 101 if I didn't think there were points worth discussing.

01:07:02

Um, but at the same time does not mean that we can't show respect to each other and still love each other for the greater good.

01:07:08

Yeah, absolutely.

01:07:10

Well, I know, uh, one of my elders, uh, brother Mike, uh, is a tremendous evangelist, he goes and does open air preaching.

01:07:17

He goes and we, we both go out and hand out tracks together.

01:07:20

We, every, every year at, um, the, the Northeast Florida fair, which was this huge fair, we, we set up a booth and for 10 days we take church members out there.

01:07:29

We share the gospel.

01:07:29

We hand out tracks and tracks is a big thing that I, I really believe in is giving someone something to take with them so that they have a way to contact you and things like that.

01:07:37

Um, he would, he would say, you know, that the use of the law is very important.

01:07:41

And I agree with that.

01:07:42

I would say that helping people understand their sin, which is what you said earlier.

01:07:46

Um, I, and, and that's where I think sometimes there is, um, some would say, well, we, we don't, we don't really need to, we don't really need to focus so much on their sin.

01:07:57

And I, and, and again, that's not a Calvinism or Arminianism thing.

01:08:00

I think that's just ultimately, uh, people afraid to go out and say that all men are sinners and need to be saved, uh, as, as an issue, but the other, uh, I mean, uh, you may, you may not feel like you should say it, but I'll say it.

01:08:13

It's, it's more of those who are on the free will side of, of the, the aisle who are more likely to neglect talking about the wrath and the law and sin.

01:08:23

That's just, that's just a fact of the matter.

01:08:25

Uh, just like in Calvinists have to admit, yes, on the Calvinist side, they're, they're the tendency for some to become hyper or for some to become, you know, anti-evangelistic or maybe a little bit, uh, you know, egotistical in their, you know, newfound faith and kind of become a cage stager in that way.

01:08:41

That can happen on both sides, by the way, I've already talked about that, but, um, but, but both sides can admit there are ditches that if you take things too far, or if you, uh, hyper focus on one particular aspect of something that you can go too far.

01:08:55

And so we should be aware of those tendencies and call them out from those in our camp, so to speak.

01:09:02

Absolutely.

01:09:02

And I appreciate the video you made recently, a cage stage provisionist.

01:09:06

I thought that was very, very funny because everybody talks about cage stage Calvinism.

01:09:10

So, so that was great.

01:09:11

They're out there for sure.

01:09:14

And, and I've had experiences with hyper Calvinist.

01:09:16

I've had people come up to me at the fair and say, they'll look at the name of our church, sovereign grace, and they'll say, well, you're Calvinist.

01:09:23

And I said, yes.

01:09:24

And they'll say, well, we are too.

01:09:25

Why are you here? And I said, well, I'm here to share the gospel.

01:09:29

Why are you doing that? And I said, well, what do you mean? Well, we don't have to do that.

01:09:32

God, God's going to save that person or he's not going to save it regardless of your participation.

01:09:37

And I just, um, I said, you're not a Calvinist, man.

01:09:40

I'd say, you're not, you're not, you, you, you can call yourself whatever you want, but that's not historic Calvinism.

01:09:46

That's not fair to us.

01:09:47

And, and, and you're using your, you've co-opted a title that really isn't fair.

01:09:52

So that, that's my thought on that.

01:09:54

Yeah.

01:09:55

So, all right.

01:09:56

Well, uh, I appreciate you being on this part of the episode and I appreciate you being willing to talk about your evangelism and the things that you do.

01:10:04

And, uh, we're going to, we're going to get ready to sign off now, but before we do, in case somebody only watches this episode and they don't get a chance to watch the second episode, I want to give you a moment to close us out with simply saying how someone, if someone wants to get ahold of you, if somebody wants to see what you have and I'm not, and I would never tell somebody don't go see, I would never say, don't do that.

01:10:23

That's because that's not fair.

01:10:24

Right? I, I, when people ask me about Calvinism, I often tell them to read for Calvinism and against Calvinism, which is by Michael Horton and, uh, who is it? Roger Olson.

01:10:34

Roger Olson.

01:10:35

So, so at least trying to give them a balanced perspective, I know you might not agree with Roger Olson on everything he said, but at least, at least I'm saying here, look at, look at these two things.

01:10:45

So how do people get ahold of you and look at you? Well, on that note, first, I will say in all my presentations, when I'm traveling and I speak on Calvinism issues, I always say, Hey guys, it's only fair for you to learn Calvinism from an actual Calvinist.

01:10:59

And I recommend Chosen by God by R.C.

01:11:01

Sproul, just because it's an easy layman level, a way of understanding TULIP, uh, the TULIP systematic before I start my broadcast.

01:11:10

And so, or start my, my presentation.

01:11:12

And so, uh, I appreciate you saying that because it's something that I've advocated for.

01:11:16

And then I go on to say, therefore, it's only fair for you to learn provisionism from an actual provisionist.

01:11:21

And so sometimes we get into our echo chambers and we only listen to what, uh, others tell us about their, uh, the opponent and that that's never a fair or good way of, of learning.

01:11:31

It's not good, good way of doing education, which is one of the reasons that Trinity, where I teach, we, we assign James White's books and my books for the sociology courses, because I want people not to be just indoctrinated, but educated, understand the differing perspectives.

01:11:45

Um, but with that said, uh, those can find me if you want to just Google my name, everything on sociology, usually it's the first page, but, um, but sociology101.com is the main website, uh, YouTube, as you already mentioned, there are broadcasts that come out each, each week, uh, on different topics, uh, around the sociological issues, sometimes confronting different, uh, forms of, uh, you know, Arminianism sometimes confronting different forms of Calvinistic sociology.

01:12:12

Um, I was a Calvinist myself for 10 years.

01:12:15

I came out of Calvinism and I wrote my dissertation before my, my, my doctor worked there at new Orleans on this topic.

01:12:22

And so that's one of the reasons that I started this broadcast, because this was a field of study for me.

01:12:26

And, uh, and it was making this material available for people.

01:12:30

Um, I, I, I am actually very fine with people disagreeing with me.

01:12:35

I really doesn't bother me.

01:12:36

If people disagree with me, as long as you can say, I understand before you say I disagree.

01:12:42

Very few times in my experience, have people at least taken the time to understand where somebody is coming from before they launch into a discourse of disagreement.

01:12:53

And, and I think that should happen on both sides of the aisle, by the way.

01:12:56

Um, and we're all guilty of it.

01:12:58

Sometimes if I'm talking to a guy who self-proclaims as a Calvinist, sometimes I assume that he's the same kind of Calvinist as James White is, or the same kind of Calvinist as John Piper is.

01:13:08

And after talking to him, I find out this is not, this is more of a Greg Koukl kind of a Calvinist.

01:13:13

If you listen to my stuff on Greg Koukl, Greg Koukl affirms libertarian freewill and has a totally different philosophical underpinning for his Calvinism than does, you know, someone like, uh, you know, Jonathan Edwards.

01:13:24

Um, and so it takes time to get to know who you're talking to.

01:13:28

And sometimes it's easier just to fire off your, your kind of your, your pre program statements and arguments.

01:13:34

And instead of really hearing somebody out and trying to get to know what they believe before you, you fire off your, your pat answers.

01:13:41

And so I would just encourage your listeners to, to kind of go and listen for yourself, get to know somebody else's arguments, um, disagree with me.

01:13:50

All you would like.

01:13:51

I actually welcome disagreement.

01:13:52

I enjoy actually being challenged.

01:13:55

Um, but try to at least listen before you disagree is all I ask.

01:14:00

Amen.

01:14:00

Well, thank you again, Leighton for being on this part of the program.

01:14:03

Look forward to talking to you in just another minute and everyone who's listening to this.

01:14:07

I want to thank you again for being a part of conversations with a Calvinist today, and I do want to mention that I am part of the truth and love network.

01:14:13

So go to that website, go look up truth and love network.

01:14:16

You'll find some other great podcasters there.

01:14:18

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01:14:24

We have a ton of funny and comical information, our videos, as well as good informational and educational videos as well.

01:14:32

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01:14:38

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01:14:45

You can find me at your Calvinist on Twitter, and I appreciate you listening and being a part of the program today.

01:14:52

Thank you for listening to conversations with a Calvinist.

01:14:54

My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.

01:14:57

May God bless you.