August 5, 2020 Show with Darrell Bernard Harrison & Virgil Walker on “A Christian Response to ‘Black Lives Matter’ & the Woke Movement”

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this fifth day of August, 2020.

I'm thrilled to have both a returning guest and a first -time guest, but this is the first time that they are both on together, and we're going to be discussing one of the most controversial issues in the media today.

I'm speaking of Darrell Bernard Harrison, who is the Dean of Social Media at the

Bible Teaching Ministry of Dr. John MacArthur. Grace to you. And we also have joining us

Virgil Walker, Discipleship Pastor at Westside Church in Omaha, Nebraska, who is co -host with Darrell Bernard Harrison of the

Just Thinking Podcast, and today we are going to be addressing a

Christian response to Black Lives Matter and the woke movement, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Darrell Bernard Harrison, and to welcome for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Virgil Walker.

Hey, thanks for having us, man. Hey, let me give our listeners our email address right away in the event that they have questions that they want to ask for themselves.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your pastor or the majority of folks in your church over something that you want to ask.

Perhaps you're a pastor yourself, you disagree with your elders, you disagree with your denomination, and you'd rather not draw attention to your identity.

I understand that very much and I will grant your request to remain anonymous. It may be just that you vehemently disagree with our guests and you want to remain anonymous.

Whatever the issue is, as long as it's personal and private, we will grant your request to remain anonymous.

But please, if it's just a general question on the issues we're discussing, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Well, before I go into your summaries of your personal testimonies, which is what we do on this show as a tradition when we are interviewing guests for the first time,

Darrell has been on this show before, but the last time he was on, it was a very brief interview and we did not have time to address his personal testimony,

I don't believe, anyway. So we will have them give their personal testimonies in a moment, starting with Virgil.

And before we do that, please, Darrell, tell us what you do as Dean of Social Media at the

Bible Teaching Ministry of Grace to You, the ministry of John MacArthur.

Be glad to, Chris. Thanks again for having me back on your program, brother. Yeah, so I've been here at Grace to You for about 19 months.

My wife, Melissa, and I moved here from Atlanta in January of 2019 for an opportunity, by God's grace, to come here on staff at Grace to You.

And my role as Dean of Social Media, I basically manage all the strategy and implementation of the social media strategies for the ministry.

Those strategies center on the purpose statement of Grace to You, which essentially is to make

John MacArthur's teaching resources available to as many people as we can all over the world.

So we leverage various social media platforms to help us accomplish that goal, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and the like.

So my responsibility is to make sure that everything we do on those platforms aligns completely with our purpose statement.

So that's essentially what I do here primarily at Grace to You in a nutshell.

And if anybody wants more information about Grace to You, go to gty .org,

gty .org. And now, Virgil, you, as I said before,

Virgil Walker is the Discipleship Pastor at Westside Church in Omaha, Nebraska.

Why don't you tell us about Westside Church? Westside Church is a

Southern Baptist -affiliated church here in Omaha, Nebraska. It is the largest of those churches here in our kind of geography here in Nebraska.

I provide—I'm the Associate Pastor of Discipleship. I'm a Discipleship Pastor. I provide oversight for all of our theological education and training.

Pre -COVID, we had about 90 -some -odd life groups, discipleship groups that were—that span three campuses.

And since COVID, as you can imagine with the slow nature of people getting back into churches and such, that number has waned a bit.

But we're still in the process of just theologically educating, training, and discipling, equipping the

Saints for the work of ministry. I've been there for—gosh, this is going to be my sixth year.

And, man, I've enjoyed the ministry there, both in teaching and also having opportunities from time to time to preach the

Word from the platform as well. Well, praise God. And if you want to look up more information about West Side Church of Omaha, Nebraska, go to wchurch .tv,

wchurch .tv. And as I just mentioned before, we are going to have our two guests today give a summary of their salvation testimony.

And we're going to start with Virgil Walker. If you could describe for us the kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Lord raised up in your life in His sovereignty that drew you to Himself and saved you.

Yeah, an incredible story, man, of just God's grace. In my life,

I grew up, both parents very heavily involved in Pentecostal circles, very heavily involved in kind of black church settings.

And in those settings, I think there was a classical gospel call that involved that type of setting, followed by, of course, all the other aspects, secondary issues related to, you know, gifts of the

Spirit and all of that that were a part of kind of my upbringing. But I didn't come to faith in Christ, so that wasn't part of my childhood.

I didn't come to faith in Christ until high school. And that was through a dear brother who, a friend of mine, a high school buddy by the name of John Lindsay.

John Lindsay came back. We were friends freshman year, sophomore year.

He was a year ahead of me. He was a junior, and he had come back that summer just serious about faith, fired up about what

God was doing in his life, and had told me that he had come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, no more this kind of game -playing, half -church -playing kind of experience, that he was really a truly heart conversion, that there was going to be a transformed life lived out on a regular, consistent basis.

And sure enough, I thought when he told me that, I thought, surely this is something that's going to start one day and be done tomorrow, or at least done next week, or I'll give him about a month and we'll see how this goes.

Three months into our new semester, he was probably more fired up and excited about his faith than ever before, and really had started engaging other friends of ours in what

I would later learn was apologetics. He'd be talking about his faith at lunchtime, having his

Bible there, very serious about faith, answering any questions to all comers about what he believed and why he believed it.

And this blew me away. This was the first time I'd ever seen an example of someone who was serious about faith, who was a young person and really all -in.

He would take me to different Bible studies that he was a part of, and it was there that I got a chance to really, that God, I believe, providentially opened my ears to what the

Gospel truly meant, where I learned that I was a sinner, that I was in need of a

Savior. And it would be the providential act of God sovereignly just saving me by His grace, through faith in Him that I would eventually bow the knee, repent of my sin, and place my full faith in Jesus Christ.

And so shortly thereafter, I would get baptized, and then John, my dear friend, also discipled me and did a fantastic job.

He and I began encouraging other students at our school to start a

Bible study with us. And it would be in that space that, over the course of the time, we'd have more than 100 students who would end up coming to a regular, consistent

Bible study, packing out the library of our school during that time. So we got a chance to kind of see an upsurge in people seriously committing their lives to Christ and then walking that faith out in real time.

So that's how I came to faith in Christ. Well, praise God. And now,

Darrell Bernard Harrison, it's your turn to give a summary of your salvation testimony. Yes, I'm a native of Atlanta.

I grew up in one of, arguably, perhaps the materially speaking poorest area of the city, on the west side of the city.

I grew up in housing projects. As a matter of fact, all of my childhood and into young adulthood, until I graduated high school, we lived in public housing all my life.

Like Virgil, I grew up with both parents. My father passed away in 2002.

My mother and sister still live in Atlanta. I also lost an older brother as well.

But growing up, my mother, I like to say, my mother wore the spiritual pants in the family. She was a heavy disciplinarian.

She was committed to having us and my two, having myself and my two siblings in church on Sunday mornings,

Sunday nights, Wednesday nights. Actually was raised in a small house church. It literally was a house on a very narrow street on the southeast side of the city.

It was Rankin Street. The name of the church was called the Universal House of Prayer.

We just kind of called it the House of Prayer for short. And theologically speaking, it was a combination of, believe it or not,

Chris, it was literally a combination of both Roman Catholicism with evangelical

Pentecostalism mixed together. Wow. The church was pastored by a woman.

Her name was Mary Boronia Walton. Mary V. Walton. My mother loved this woman.

She absolutely loved her. Ms. Walton was married to a

Catholic priest. So I can vaguely remember, you know, attending services at the prayer house, sitting in one of the pews, and off to my left would be men with white collars.

I mean, they're dressed in all the priestly garb, whereas Ms. Walton, she actually had the title of Archbishop.

So that was her title in the church. And so this is where the Catholicity, the Roman Catholicity of the worship experience comes in.

So Archbishop Walton, as we called her, she would sit in this very ornate wooden chair where your pulpit normally would go.

I remember the church was red carpeting everywhere, red carpeting on the floors, red carpeting on the pews.

And at the end of every worship service, everyone in the congregation literally would get in line and walk up to Archbishop Walton and kiss the ring.

She had a red signet ring with a brass cloth on it.

I remember to this day that she wore on her right hand, that we would have to grab her hand and actually kiss it as if she was a queen or something like that.

So that was my earliest experience with church. But growing up in the historical black church tradition,

I didn't hear many theological terms. As a matter of fact, I didn't even hear the word theology growing up, never.

I can't remember hearing the word theology ever growing up until I graduated high school, went into the military nine days after I graduated high school, and I come out of the military and I go back, not to the prayer house, however, but it was another historically black church that was on my father's side of the family.

His family went there for decades. So I joined that church because I knew people there. But one

Sunday it all of a sudden hit me. I wasn't going anywhere. And I didn't go back after that Sunday.

After that epiphany kind of hit me, I was just really convicted that, yeah, I'm kind of going here by rote because my parents are here, my siblings are here, my relatives are here.

But I wasn't learning a single thing. So I left that church called Chapel Hill Missionary Baptist Church on Northside Drive in Atlanta.

My mother's sister still goes there to this day. But I left Chapel Hill and ended up joining

First Baptist Church of Atlanta where Dr. Charles Stanley is still the senior pastor there.

And it was while I was at First Baptist Atlanta that I first heard someone preach from a translation of the

Bible that wasn't the King James. I'd always struggled to really latch on to reading the

Bible in the King James translation, but I heard Dr. Stanley read from the New American Standard for the first time, and I was like, wow,

I can understand what he's saying. So I visited First Baptist Church of Atlanta, and as most good

Southern Baptist churches will do, you'll sign a visitor's card, and then a few days later, a couple from the orchestra, a married couple who played in the orchestra at First Baptist Atlanta came and visited me at my apartment.

And I remember to this day it was a cold February evening. They came and visited me, and they took me down the

Roman's Road of Salvation. So I never had salvation explained to me in a way that I needed to respond to it.

So growing up as a child, you know, we just went to church because you're supposed to go to church. You know, and my parents did the best they could, you know, to teach me and my siblings about God, about who

Jesus was, the Holy Spirit. But I've never been confronted with the fact that I'm a sinner, that I was an enemy of God, okay, until that evening in my apartment.

And it was that night that I recognized that I was a sinner, that I was an enemy of God, and that I was on my way to hell, that God's wrath, as it states in John 3, verse 36, was upon me right in that very moment, that going to church does not save me, that being a good person does not save me, that doing nice things does not save me.

So it was that evening in February, I think it might have been 93 or 94, that Christ convicted me of my sin and regenerated me.

Well, praise God. Love hearing the stories of how our Lord has drawn people to himself and saved them.

Now, I would love for you, and we could start with Darrell this time, I'd love for you to both describe the

Just Thinking podcast that you co -host. Wow. How do we describe the

Just Thinking podcast? Wow. Let me begin by describing it, give a little history.

The Just Thinking podcast has been in, I guess, reality now for a little over two years, maybe about two and a half years.

We actually launched our first episode in December of 2017. The Just Thinking podcast is a very expositional, exegetical, long -form podcast.

By long -form, I mean we are not the norm in terms of 15 minutes, 20 minutes episodes, as far as length goes.

The topics that we tackle, we exposit them through the Scriptures in detail, in great depth.

So an average episode for us may last an hour to hour and a half. We do have certain topics, however, that due to the nature of the topic itself, sometimes we have episodes that go past two hours, two and a half hours all along.

But the Just Thinking podcast, it is just that. Our mission is to apply biblical truth to the social, political, theological, and cultural issues that are facing the

Church and individual Christians in the world. So I like to say that the Just Thinking podcast is not for everyone.

It is not for everyone. But by God's grace, we've grown to where just recently, just a couple days ago,

Chris, as a matter of fact, we surpassed one million downloads. We've surpassed, wow, downloads.

We have, as a matter of fact, just a couple episodes ago, we produced our 100th episode.

And coming up here in a couple days, well, a little more than a couple days, August 19th, we plan to, by God's grace, more willingly release our 102nd episode that's got to do with the topic that we're going to be discussing with you today.

So again, in short, I'll let Virgil add whatever he wants. But the Just Thinking podcast is just that.

If you don't want to apply your brain cells, our podcast is not for you.

Well, one would have to think that if somebody doesn't want to apply their brain cells to learn more about their

Lord and about the scriptures that our Lord has breathed out, I think that we would have to question somebody's salvation.

But Virgil, if you could, start with your own description. Yeah, I would only add it's two brothers in the

Lord having an absolute blast. And both of us just kind of jaw dropped at the response by those who are fans of the show.

Neither Del nor I, as we embarked upon this endeavor, had the idea that we would be celebrating a 100th episode or more than a million downloads or that we would be at times ranked the number one

Christian podcast or the number four Christian podcast in the weeks just previous to this one.

And we're overwhelmed by the response. And at the end of the day, it's just two brothers who get on a microphone and pull up kind of the issues of the day and try to push them very methodically, very theologically through a biblical lens.

And so we're having a great time doing it. We have an incredible cast of people that all volunteer behind the scenes to help us do what we do.

And it's amazing to see how God has used the platform and has used our voices with regard to what

Del just mentioned, which are the political, theological, cultural, social issues of the day.

And that's been an absolute blast. I've been alongside this brother now for two years, and there are times when it feels like it was just yesterday from a standpoint of the fun that we have doing it.

There are times when it feels like we've been together forever from just a standpoint of us having a finger on the pulse of what the other one is thinking.

And so it's an absolute joy. Praise God. And if anybody wants to find out more about the

Just Thinking podcast, go to JustThinking .me, JustThinking .me,

and you can find out more about the podcast and the blog and everything else that you need to know about Darrell Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker.

Well, today, as I've already announced, we are going to be addressing a very controversial theme on Iron Sharpens Iron radio, a

Christian response to Black Lives Matter and the woke movement. And our guests today, if you didn't know already, they are both black brothers in Christ.

And although I don't think that is required when someone is addressing subjects like this,

I know that a lot of people out there think it is, that a white person, especially alone, should never dare to address issues like these.

But I don't agree with that. But I do think that it may give an insight into these matters from a perspective that you very rarely hear in the media, especially from a

Christian perspective and a black perspective simultaneously. There are conservative pundits in the media who happen to be black who have been addressing this.

But I have very rarely heard theologically sound, committed men in the

Christian faith address this. So, first of all, the

Black Lives Matter movement. Perhaps we could start with Darrell. What do you know about the origins of this movement?

All I know is that I think that the name is a product of genius.

And I don't mean that because I admire this organization, being a Marxist and dangerous organization, and favor in promoting not only violence but homosexuality and the murder of unborn children.

But what I mean by that is, it's one of those situations where, as they typically try to do in the media, is corner people to get them to say that they don't believe in Black Lives Matter, so it sounds like they're saying something racist.

It's as if a cult had started called Jesus is

Lord, and to get Christians to somehow denounce Jesus is Lord, because that's a wonderful statement and a true statement.

But if you could, Darrell, start with what you know about the origins of this group. Yeah, I'll be glad to,

Chris. I mean, I'll just take it from the Black Lives Matter's website. At blacklivesmatter .com,

on their website, the first sentence there is that the organization was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin's murderer.

Now, I think within that first sentence is something that really should be concerning to most professing

Christians, if not all professing Christians. And here's what I mean by that. Again, hashtag blacklivesmatter.

I'm reading verbatim from the blacklivesmatter website at blacklivesmatter .com. Black Lives Matter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin's murderer.

Now, what concerns me initially there is that the impetus for founding this organization was not that the trial of Trayvon Martin's killer,

George Zimmerman, was improper, that it was illegal, that it violated any parameters or ethics in terms of constitutionality of the trial.

No, what the founders of Black Lives Matter were disappointed with was that George Zimmerman was acquitted.

Okay, it says it right here in black and white on their website. So, the impetus, the motive for founding this organization to begin with was very subjective because the founders were indignant that someone who they wanted found guilty for killing

Trayvon Martin was found not guilty. So, when you ask me what do

I know about the organization, well, that's the first thing that comes to mind is the impetus upon which the organization was founded.

Okay, so, what I would say to your listeners initially here, Chris, is that, especially to believers, professional believers, never think, okay, never think that Black Lives Matter as an organization was founded upon some innocuous or innocent hashtag.

Okay, it's just amazing how a hashtag has become so divisive within the body of Christ when it wasn't really about that at all.

When you read the hashtag, and I agree with you, Chris, the hashtag itself, brilliant.

Okay, now what's brilliant about it in a sad kind of way is that as it relates to the church, most

Christians are not going to take the time to research and study, well, what's intrinsically involved here with this hashtag?

What is this hashtag really advocating? What is this hashtag really saying?

When you drill down throughout this organization, I cannot think of a more unbiblical, ungodly, unchristian, unscriptural,

I could go on and on, organization that exists in my lifetime.

I can't recall one. Wow, that's saying a lot. That is saying a lot, and I don't say that flippantly.

I don't say that loosely. But again, for an organization like this to say in its own words that it was founded in response to the acquittal of someone, okay, now your feelings about the outcome of a trial doesn't mean guilt or innocence either way, okay?

But as believers, okay, as Christians, we are to leave the outcome of some situations to God, but I think it says a lot about the founders of this organization that they selectively, okay, they selectively were indignant about the outcome of this trial as opposed to starting a

Black Lives Matter or whatever organization you want to name it, starting a similar organization over the acquittal of somebody who was black who killed somebody black.

Now, if that had happened, I'd give a little more credence and credibility to the organization, but no, their indignance was so subjective in this situation that they were so angry that someone was acquitted that they founded this organization in response.

In fact, we have to go to our first break right now. We'll have you pick up where you left off, and we'll also have Virgil chime in.

If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our two guests today for the entirety of the show are

Darrell Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, who are co -hosts of the Just Thinking podcast.

We are discussing a Christian response to Black Lives Matter and the woke movement, and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

if you have a question of your own. Darrell, I don't know if there's anything that you failed to say when

I had to cut you off for the station break, but if you want to pick up where you left off, and then we'll have Virgil chime in with his own comments about the

Black Lives Matter movement. No, Chris. Actually, your break was a good stopping point for me, so I'll just go ahead and hand it over to Virgil to see if he wants to add anything.

Okay, Virgil. Is Virgil there? Oh, wow.

Yes. Can you hear me now? Yes, I can hear you now. Good, good. I think, again, most of what—I love what

Darrell started with, which is going—I appreciate the fact that one of the things that we do on Just Thinking is we want to go to the original resources and allow them to speak about what they believe and why, and so Darrell referenced the

BlackLivesMatter .com website where we can run into the three co -founders, Patrisse Cullors, I believe is how you say her last name,

Alicia Garza, and Opal Tometi. These three women, they've admitted at one point or another during the course of an interview that they are trained

Marxists, and so when we get back to kind of what Darrell shared in the very first sentence of the reason for an organization like this being founded, their presupposition is that Black Lives Matter on the basis of or as a response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin's murder, and again, what we have here is a hashtag anthropology, right?

This is an ideology around the basis of life mattering only as a response to what one found unfavorable.

They found an unfavorable outcome in the trial, and as a result, therefore,

Black lives then do matter, and here is how they matter. Their ideology doesn't have an idea around or justification for lives mattering apart from a response to something that has happened to them, and so that's in and of itself problematic.

You guys also mentioned the language that's used and how smart it is for them to identify

Black Lives Matter, because the people that they're speaking to, their audience, primarily

Americans who identify from a Judeo -Christian worldview, have presuppositions as to why

Black lives should matter. Those who founded the organization don't hold to those same presuppositions.

Theirs is on the basis of the ideological overthrow of systems, and I know we'll get into that at some point, but the only reason

Black lives really matter to them is in that they enable these issues around Trayvon Martin, around George Floyd, enable them to use this situation, this circumstance, as a reason, as a catalyst to overthrow systems.

That's what's in view here. It's not the idea that Black lives matter on the basis of these image -bearers of God who have distinct value, dignity, and worth, as we believe from a

Judeo -Christian worldview. These lives matter only insofar as we're able to use them to advance an ideological disposition around a

Marxian, a self -admitted Marxian idea around oppressed and oppressor groups for the purpose of advancing their cause.

And so, in and of itself, that's why I love what Daryl did, and starting with the very first sentence, and pausing to ask questions, because there's assumptive language in everything that you're going to read in their statement.

The assumptions that we make are that those who are writing these ideas are operating from the same

Judeo -Christian worldview that we're operating by, and so of course lives matter on that basis.

But when you look at what they're stating from their particular worldview, those lives only matter insofar as they're able to be used to advance a particular political cause.

Now, is not homosexuality also a part of the agenda to promote this way of living, if you could call it that?

And one of the reasons why that is fascinating is because for most of my life as a

Christian, I have observed what seems to be the majority of black folks in the community, whether they are truly regenerate or part of the cultural black church, which tends to even vote predominantly liberal, even those that were known in New York City where I used to live on Long Island, New York, and was keeping up very regularly on the goings -on in New York and New York City when the same -sex marriage bills were about to be passed.

And there was a great outcry from the black community against this, even from those that were known

Democrat individuals, known to be even activists for Democratic political candidates, and yet they drew the line in the sand and said, this is not where we are going any further.

We oppose this. We think it's wrong. We believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

So to me it's interesting that this would be a part of this agenda, because historically, and maybe you guys can chime in and give more clarification, it seems that the homosexual agenda has never really been a strong part of black culture, even the liberal aspects of it.

Well, yeah, Chris, you're actually right about that. So historically, in terms of black ecclesiology, one could argue that the biblical doctrine around homosexuality, lesbianism, male -to -male, female -to -female sexual relationships has been the line that professing black

Christians historically would not cross. That was until Barack Obama came into office.

Yes, there were certain black voices, black ministerial voices, black ecclesiastical voices, that came out vociferously against legalizing same -sex marriage.

But those voices were so few and far between that I doubt that many people even knew that those voices existed.

What you have with Black Lives Matter, again, on their website again,

BlackLivesMatter .com, on their What We Believe page, their objectives are blatantly not only homosexual, but transgender.

So they have a focus here, for instance, one of their police statements reads as follows, quote,

We are self -reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift black trans folk, comma, especially black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans -antagonistic violence, unquote.

Another statement of belief from the BlackLivesMatter .com website is as follows, quote,

We foster a queer -affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual, parenthetically, unless he or she or they disclose otherwise, unquote.

So again, Black Lives Matter makes no secret of where they stand in terms of embracing and prospering and promoting not only a homosexual agenda, but a transgender agenda that specifically normalizes that type of behavior within their worldview.

And again, all of this under the umbrella of a hashtag that Black Lives Matter.

And Virgil, do you have anything to add to that? Yeah, from the very front page of their website, they say that, quote,

We affirm the lives of black queer and trans folk, disabled folk, undocumented folk, folk with records, women, and all black lives along the gender spectrum.

Our network centers those who have been marginalized within black liberation movements.

And again, all of this on the basis of most of what they've shared here are mutable issues.

I mean, this isn't the basis to formulate who man is and what he is about and why he is here.

It's all of these on the basis of they're establishing lives mattering on the basis of issues rather than on the basis of the nature of how

God created man. But again, what's ingenious about the hashtag is that they recognize that their audience, for the most part, are

Judeo -Christian Americans who, when they hear Black Lives Matter, are operating from a presupposition regarding the

Imago Dei that men are created in the image of God and have distinct value, dignity, and worth.

What they don't do is they don't establish that worth on the basis of anything immutable.

They establish it on the basis of these ideas of queerness, of transness, these ideas of issues of being undocumented, living along a gender spectrum, all of these ideas that are fluid and vacuous.

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. This is the longer -than -normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program twice daily, they are bound by the

FCC to localize their program or their programming to Lake City, Florida, and that would include

Iron Trip and Zion Radio, which airs in their morning drive slot in a pre -recorded format and then again in the evening.

And while they air their own public service announcements and other local things in the middle of our show, we air our globally heard commercials.

So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can to further ensure that you will be able to patronize them more frequently and successfully.

That way, our advertisers may be more inclined to stick around and remain as our advertisers, which means, subsequently,

God willing, we will remain on the air for a longer future because we absolutely rely upon our advertisers to exist.

So please write down as much of the information as you can and respond to our advertisers as often as you can and also send in questions to Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker on Black Lives Matter and the woke movement.

And again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.

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He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness and the beauty in what

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Thank you. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the

Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? Uh, you know,

I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years. We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air, so I don't have to brag about myself.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Before I return to Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, we have some announcements to make that we hope that you will take seriously and make note of.

First of all, tomorrow, we have back on the program someone who

I have loved to interview, Dr. Ron McKinney. He is pastor of Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia, and he is going to be discussing the doctrine of adoption tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

On Friday, we've got Adam Dooley returning for Part 2 of a discussion we began on Monday with him.

He is discussing his new book, Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts.

There was so much that we only scratched the surface in discussing that we wanted to have Adam back for Part 2 this

Friday. Also, folks, I hope as many of you as possible join me on Friday and Saturday, August 28th and 29th for a conference where I will be manning an

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor's booth. And that conference is a conference of the

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors titled The Basics of Biblical Counseling.

This is going to be held at High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, which is a suburb of Scarsdale, I'm sorry,

Scranton, Pennsylvania. Scranton, Pennsylvania. Scarsdale is in New York. Sorry about that.

But High Point Baptist Church is the host of this event. And the speaker, the keynote speaker, who

I'm sure you're going to benefit from immensely, is Dale Johnson.

And he is the Executive Director of ACBC, also known as the

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. And the lecturers that will be included at this event are

The Need for Biblical Counseling, The Definition and Goal of Biblical Counseling, Progressive Sanctification, Qualifications of a

Biblical Counselor, Secular and Integration Theories, and What Makes Biblical Counseling Biblical.

There will also be a Q &A with the audience conducted by Dale Johnson. If you want more details on registering, go to biblicalcounseling .com

forward slash Scranton dash PA dash training. That's biblicalcounseling .com

forward slash Scranton S -C -R -A -N -T -O -N dash PA dash training.

You can also find out more about the venue where it's being held, High Point Baptist Church at highpointbaptist .church

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Those two things are commands of God in the scriptures to provide for your church and your family. Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God, but if you're financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, and you love the show, and you don't want it to disappear, and perhaps you even have extra money that you've been saving because during this quarantining that's been going on, you haven't been going out fine dining, you haven't been going to concerts, you haven't been going to your favorite sporting events, you haven't even been going to Bible conferences, you haven't been going to the movies or playhouses and theaters to see theatrical performances, and many other things that involve money, and you've been saving that money, well,

I would be more than happy to take some of that money off your hands, and I would love it if you would begin supporting us if you've never begun to do so before, or if you have already been a loyal and faithful sponsor of the show, or benefactor, please continue to donate, and for those of you able to, please increase your giving because we are in such urgent need.

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Also, if you are not a member of a local bible -believing church, you're having a hard time finding one near you,

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet earth. I've helped many people find churches near where they live that they didn't even know existed.

I may be able to help you find a church or someone that you love who is currently without a solid, biblically faithful church home.

So send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

That's also the email address to send in a question to Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker on a

Christian response to Black Lives Matter and the woke movement. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com Before I go to any listener questions, there are some folks eagerly waiting for you to answer their questions.

Before I do that, let's get more involved into the broader category of the woke movement.

One of the things that disturbs me greatly, Daryl and Virgil, and I'm sure it disturbs both of you as well, is that I have interviewed men on this program who nine years ago, which is not a very long time, would have stood in radical opposition to the things being stated as an agenda of the woke movement.

And now they are leaders of at least the woke movement in theologically conservative and reformed circles.

It's astonishing to me how they could be speaking and defending and advocating zealously things that are 180 degrees different from what they stood for nine years ago.

And on top of that, I haven't heard any real admission that there has been a radical departure from their former views.

It seems to be expected of us to think that this is what they always believed. But if you could, either one that wants to start, define the woke movement and tell me about your own reaction to what

I just said. Hey Chris, this is Daryl. I'll go ahead and take a stab at that first and then I'll transition over to Virgil.

I think you can really define the woke movement rather with one word, and that word is pragmatism.

The entire woke movement is basically just an offshoot. It's just a social gospel, the social justice gospel by another name.

It's by another catchy, pithy, sort of culturally induced phrase to call it, the woke movement, woke theology.

But it's the same old regurgitated social gospel that began to penetrate the evangelical church in the early 1920s.

There's really nothing new about this. If I were to say one thing about the woke movement is that it's being embraced by many evangelical leaders, the names who all your listeners will probably recognize if I were to mention some of them, but it's been embraced under the fallacy that the gospel somehow, and Christianity somehow, the objective of those are to create some sort of egalitarian society where everything is equitable, everything is equal, primarily materially speaking.

Okay, so the woke movement has as its objective to be aware.

Okay, so that's what the word woke means. I'm aware. I'm not asleep to what's going on socially, culturally, and politically in the culture, especially as it relates to how black people are treated in America.

So that's basically a superficial definition, a surface of what the woke movement is.

It is an awareness of perceived injustices. Okay, and I emphasize the word perceived.

Perceived injustices by structures, institutions, people in authority, a level of authority against black people and then leveraging those perceived injustices to benefit either in terms of monetary reparations, favorable laws, favorable policies either in public or private, and one way that Black Lives Matter is benefiting from the woke movement is that there are dozens of corporations who are bending over backwards to donate money to these organizations.

Just a couple of examples will be Lululemon, Amazon, Spank, companies like Square Enix, the

Ritz Corporation, Warner Records, Gatorade. I could go on and on and on.

These companies have donated hundreds of thousands to tens of millions and committed to donating hundreds of thousands or tens of millions of dollars to Black Lives Matter under the hypothesis that there is an orchestrated, organized effort to deliberately treat black

Americans unjustly. Okay? I think Virgil alluded to this earlier and I'll let him elaborate on that.

On the Black Lives Matter website, on their What We Believe page, the very last sentence reads this.

Quote, We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagement with one another.

Unquote. Now, I don't know about you, Chris, and I can't speak for Virgil, but when

I think about Black Lives Matter, I don't think about Black Lives Matter as the organization and the word peace in the same sentence.

I just don't. Their definition of justice, Black Lives Matter's definition of justice couldn't be more subjective.

Their definition of justice is outcome -based, okay? So when there's a situation of dispute, such as was the case with Trayvon Martin in 2013 and more recently with George Floyd, and that situation is still being adjudicated, but their definition of justice is the outcome favorable to me.

If it's favorable to me, then that's justice. If it's unfavorable to me, as it was in the case of Trayvon Martin, where George Zimmerman was acquitted, where they wanted to see a guilty verdict, then that is injustice.

So that's a bottom line there. So this whole woke movement is nothing objective about it.

It is very subjective, it is situational, it is circumstantial, and with terms such as justice, liberation, and equity all defined with an asterisk.

We need to definitely read between the lines. I don't know if Virgil has anything to add to that. Again, I think you summed it up incredibly well.

You've got, you know, really what woke -ism, woke -church, woke -theology, is really kind of the third wave of this whole social gospel.

You know, it started in the late 1700s, and then by the point that Daryl made, the 1820s, probably the first two or three decades of the 1800s, you begin to see this social gospel that began to kind of permeate the culture, the idea of fixing social ills, dealing with crime, dealing with unemployment, dealing with all of these social, temporal issues that those who were advocating these ideas wanted to see made right.

Rather than desiring to see, rather than those who held this social gospel, rather than seeing sin dealt with in the lives of individuals, they wanted to see society dealt with as a collective, and so it was easier for them to segregate a society into collective groups of haves and have -nots, into collective groups of oppressed and oppressor, and again, that language comes straight out of Marxian ideology.

So this whole idea of woke gospel, of woke -ism, is the

Church's attempt at something that's been tried over and over and over again, and has absolutely failed, and I think our thought process is we sprinkle a little

Christian -ese over the top of it, and that it somehow begins to work when, again, these ideas have been tried historically, have failed historically, and to the brilliant point that Daryl made, have really never resulted in the peace that they claim they're trying to apprehend to begin with.

It has brought nothing but death and devastation and separation and division, and it continues to do so to this day.

Now, explain, and you may continue if you like, Virgil, or Bernard, Daryl, Bernard, Harrison, you can pick it up as well.

Explain the exact use of the term woke in regard to this movement.

I'll briefly say the idea is awakening. It's the idea of coming awake or being awakened to your oppression, being awakened to the inequities that are believed to be structural or systemic rather than personal and individualized.

It's the idea behind being seen not as an individual person, but as part of a collective group for the purpose of leveraging advantage, currying favor from the status of victimhood.

So you actually benefit on the basis of how much of a victim status you actually hold within the culture.

It's a backward idea, but that's what... And so being woke is awakened, being awakened.

It's an urban colloquialism. Being woke, I'm woke. It's that colloquialism that just identifies

I'm now awakened to my current condition in the culture. Yeah, and Chris, I would just add when you look at the whole woke movement, especially within evangelicalism, what you're really looking at is a

Marxian eschatology, okay? A Marxian eschatology wherein the

Church, it is gullibility, and I say gullibility in part because it has been so willing to embrace

Black Lives Matter as an organization without even knowing what that organization stands for.

That organization stands for a Marxian eschatology. Now, I don't say that in the sense that Black Lives Matters is in any shape, way, or form an ecclesiastical entity.

They're about as far away from that as you can get, but in terms of their objective, their objective is no different than the social gospel in that they want to deconstruct systems and structures using the very language of Karl Marx, okay?

Karl Marx, his entire agenda was about deconstructing systems and structures and taking away from those who have and redistributing it to those who have not solely on the basis that there have not.

Okay, so there's nothing objective, nothing biblical about what

Black Lives Matter is doing in that regard. Not to mention, again, like I said earlier, there is nothing in the gospel, nothing in the totality of Scripture that tells us that an objective of Christianity as it relates to specifically out -fulfilling the

Great Commission, so to speak, there is nothing inherent to the Great Commission that we're supposed to go about our

Christian duty to make society materially equitable.

That, in another way, what you're trying to do there is try to create heaven on earth, but what people don't realize is that even in heaven, not everything is going to be equal, but they're trying to recreate that, trying to create that sort of misnomer, that eschatological misnomer here on earth through the subjective premise of justice, but again, their definition of justice is predicated upon outcomes.

This is why, again, I pointed out at the very beginning, the first sentence on the Black Lives Matter website is that they were inspired to form the

Black Lives Matter organization because they were unhappy that someone was acquitted. That's justice.

Let me add to something that Daryl just shared. I love what he said because Black Lives Matter is far from an ecclesiastical organization.

At the same time, there is a very definitive orthopraxy about what they do.

There very much is a religious element to the behavior of the organization.

You're witnessing this in the NBA and the MLB, everyone needing to bow their knee to the idea that Black Lives Matter, every organization,

Daryl mentioned it earlier in the episode, every organization needing to step up and pay tribute in some financial form in an effort to pay their tithes, if you will, to the organization so that they can be seen as adequately woke, as having bent the knee to the systemic racism of the historic past, whether they were a part of it or not, whether they were a beneficiary of it or not.

Everyone has to step up, and there's right behavior, and if you neglect those right behaviors, if you neglect the orthopraxy, if you will, of the

Black Lives Matter movement, you're ostracized. You're canceled. You've got a cancel culture that will descend upon you enough to make sure that you align yourself rightly with the orthopraxy of Black Lives Matter.

And if you could, even explain further that cancel culture phrase we keep hearing in the media.

It's the idea that if you don't do as, you know,

Black Lives Matters believes, you're over. It's over for you.

Or, if you step out of line of the tribalistic view that Black Lives Matter holds, you could be canceled.

There are soccer players who've lost contracts on the basis of their wives having said the wrong thing about Black Lives Matter.

Coming outside of the lines, outside of the boundaries of what Black Lives Matter dictates needs to be done.

And the problem with that is, this is an ever -moving target on a daily basis.

Every morning you wake up, there's a brand new article afoot that tells you what the orthopraxy of Black Lives Matter now is.

Rutgers, for example, has decided that they're going to participate in something they're calling critical grammar.

Critical grammar. And it's an effort to make sure that no one feels obligated to attach themselves to common grammar.

Now, while those who are within the halls of Rutgers have said that we've never made the claim that correct grammar was racist, they may not have made that claim, but they indeed suggest the idea that there's a different standard now attached if you come from a minority population or a historically marginalized group of people, that you can identify with critical grammar rather than correct grammar.

And again, all of these are ideas on the basis of having to bend the knee, bow the knee, to this ever -moving target that is established by those who advocate for Black Lives Matter.

And again, if you don't bow the knee to the orthodoxy of this particular practice, you will find yourself canceled.

And we have a listener, Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, who has a question.

He asks, in your opinion, why have some of the prominent voices within black conservatism, even black reformed theological circles, have come to embrace this woke movement seemingly in absolute and utter contradiction to their former positions?

It mystifies me. I have no idea what they have to gain by doing this.

Yeah, I'll respond to that question and I'll let Virgil add if he would like. I think what we're finding in some of those situations with some of those individuals, and I won't mention any names, but I've got somewhat of an idea maybe of some of the names that the individual who posed that question may have in mind.

And I think what we're finding out is that we've got a group of cultural Christians out there, and I don't mean that just by label.

I'm talking about that their allegiances and their loyalty is first to their culture. First to their cultural experience, to their cultural epistemology, whereby that takes precedent over the authoritative, objective, immutable truth of Scripture.

And I think that's what we're finding, that within this concept of wokeism, the latest resurrection or latest wave of the social gospel that's penetrating the evangelical churches, especially churches in urban centers, urban cities like where I'm from, like in Atlanta.

I don't know, Chris, if you watched any of the funeral of John Lewis, which was held at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta just last week.

You heard Reverend Raphael G. Warnock, just absolutely uninhibited, egregious black liberation theology.

And then behind him came Barack Obama. So I think we've got within the

Protestant church here in America, we've got individuals who are black who are professing to be reformed, but they embrace, at least to some degree, a paradigm that can only be described as liberation theology.

And Black Lives Matter has served as a doorway, an entryway for folks to, under the guise of that hashtag, under the guise of that hashtag, the

Black Lives Matter, to demonstrate the type of theology that they really adhere to, and in many cases, that theology is shaded, it is tempered, and it is colored with the black liberation theology that was preached by James Cone back in the 70s.

So I understand exactly where the questioner is coming from. That is a reality. He or she who asks that question is not off the mark at all.

Matter of fact, they're spot on. That is their reality. Even within Reformed circles, and within Reformed theology, would be the last place that you would think that that sort of world view would actually take hold.

But it is there, it is present, and it is growing, I'm afraid. We have to get to our final break right now.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the last two breaks. So send in a question if you have any intention to do so now.

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Welcome back this is Chris Arnzen and this is the last segment of our interview today with Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker on Black Lives Matter and the woke movement and we do have a listener in Queens New York named

Johnny who has a question. Let's see here. What would you say is driving the earnestness of the woke church in quotes to be in solidarity with Black Lives Matter?

Are they turning a blind eye to the wicked ideology of this anti -biblical Marxist queer affirming nuclear family dismantling group just to be considered anti -racist?

Virgil, I'll let you take that one. Yeah, I'll kind of, I'll pick up where that question left off.

In fact it was a, the previous question on the back end of that and it ties into this particular question as well.

I think what your previous questioner had asked or had made the claim in their question, they said you know this folks advocating for this ideology who are reformed, you know, black and have sound theology.

His response was that there's no benefit in this, that those men who are advocating for that, there's no benefit to them in that regard.

And that was the only part of the questioner's response that I disagree with.

And what I mean by that is, and it ties into this question as well, is there's great benefit unfortunately in the current cultural milieu that we're in for people to find themselves as victims or to define themselves rather as victims.

There's great political power, there's great, I mean we've been talking about the fact that corporations are now lining up for the purpose of advocating for Black Lives Matter and all of the things that they raise as a standard for their operating procedure.

So there is great benefit. There is tremendous benefit. There's cultural benefit, there's social benefit, there's political benefit, and identifying in all of these spaces and places.

And Del mentioned earlier to this particular question that, you know, the ideas that are being promoted didn't start yesterday.

No one woke up, you know, yesterday, the day before, or even at the point at which

George Floyd died and became an advocate for this. This is something that has been a part of an ongoing process in black churches primarily, in black culture.

If you want to talk about something systemically, I'd argue that the idea of liberation theology, of black liberation theology, is something that has permeated black culture for a long time and can be seen and evidenced by the manner in which we vote politically.

Every four years, the Democratic Party identifies what a great victim we are, gets us all riled up about issues around race, and we, in knee -jerk fashion, kind of reflexively vote for a democratic platform, a democratic ticket that has done nothing but created additional poverty and problems in black communities at large.

But again, this is part of what's preached in black culture. When you've got a culture where 90 % of folks, 93 % of folks, are voting for one

Democratic Party in particular, what you're identifying there is a systemic ideological, political, and social infusion of education that has caused them to do that.

And so, to the questions particularly, this is not new. These ideas are not new.

They've been a part of black culture for quite some time, and there's something that black pastors and preachers, unfortunately, have preached in their pulpits, have been a part of what they've taught rather than...

And you can go all the way back to the very beginning of this interview when Daryl talked particularly about his upbringing.

There was never a time when he was actually taught theology. We are being taught biblical worldview and made to understand the distinctions behind those, and if we were, it would allow us to separate ourselves from what we're currently seeing in the culture, which is pragmatism.

And Chris, if I could just add one thing to what Virgil just did a brilliant job articulating there.

When you understand that the, quote -unquote, black church in America, the hermeneutic of the black church historically has been a hermeneutic of suffrage, okay?

It's been a hermeneutic of suffrage, it's been a hermeneutic of liberation, it's been a hermeneutic of temporal equality.

And what I mean by that is that in the pulpits of black churches historically, the messages and sermons that have been preached have always centered around some type of material freedom, material sociopolitical freedom, sociopolitical equality, material equality whereby, you know, economically, you know, we're going to be free one day, we're going to be liberated from the disadvantages that we have in this country.

So when you consider that historical hermeneutic, it's easy to understand why so many within the black church, within black ecclesiology, why they just come out in such droves and attach themselves, they present themselves to a movement like Black Lives Matter because Black Lives Matter is, though they couldn't be more distant from any sort of ecclesiastical entity at all, they,

Black Lives Matter's messages about liberation, freedom, and justice resonate with that historical hermeneutic that many of these

Christians, black Christians, have grown up hearing generationally. So we have to take this back to decades ago, not just 2013 when

Trayvon Martin was killed, or 2012 when Trayvon Martin was killed, and 2013 when George Zimmerman was acquitted.

Okay, we have John in Bangor, Maine who says, is a part of the reason that the word woke is used when it comes to white people who become woke is that they are allegedly awakened to the fact that they are racists, even if they have never really uttered or practiced anything that can tangibly identified as racism.

Yeah, that's a great question. Go ahead, do you think? I'll just say briefly, all of that is attached to a larger ideological, a deal called

Critical Race Theory, where everything systemically is racist, and Del and I spent some time talking about this.

I know we're short on time, so I won't be very long. Del and I talked about this particular issue on our podcast, episodes regarding whiteness, and most recently we did kind of an exegetical review of white culture in light of some of the infographics that are out there about whiteness, and all that, and again, the whole premise behind the idea of whiteness is that it is not blackness, and so these ideas, these words are sociocultural constructs that are absolutely meaningless, but they're filled with meaning on the basis and through the lens of Critical Race Theory.

I'll stop there and let Daryl add on whatever he needs to. Yeah, in all this conversation about white fragility and white racism and white supremacy, what's not being talked about is the intra -ethnic racism that exists in America, and what

I mean by intra -ethnic racism, that is the prejudicial attitudes and biases that black people have towards other black people.

That is the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about, but as it relates to the question that was asked, what

I would encourage white people to stop doing is when you hear terms just thrown out there like fragility and woe and racist, stop accepting them as reality, as if they were objective terms that can be proven.

There's an agenda behind these labels, and I would encourage especially my white brothers and sisters to educate yourselves on the origin and genesis of where these terms originated, as opposed to just accepting them as reality, which puts you in a position of defense, and once they have you in a position of defending yourself, you've already lost.

Yeah, I mean, I'm seeing popping up all over the community where I live, on the front lawns of families that are white, signs that are in favor of and promoting

Black Lives Matter, and I mean, are these people actually, you wonder, are you a

Marxist? Why are you even having a sign like that on your lawn? I mean, I can't help but wonder if some of them at least think that's going to protect them if a riot were to break out here, but fear really drives a lot of things,

I think. In fact, we have another listener, an anonymous listener who says, it seems to me that this

Black Lives Matter and woke movement are no less racist than the KKK, the only difference is the target.

That person is absolutely correct. They're absolutely correct. There is no difference.

The difference, the socio -cultural milieu that we're in right now, and unfortunately the evangelical church is helping to facilitate this milieu, is that even in these disparate instances where a

George Floyd has been killed, a Michael Brown has been killed, an Ahmaud Arbery has been killed, organizations like Black Lives Matter know, they're not dumb, they're not stupid, they know that they can leverage these occasions and these instances as infrequently as they occur, they know that they can still leverage them to their advantage because there are people out there who for no other reason don't want to be labeled as racist, don't want to be labeled as being connected to a positive hashtag, quote unquote, so they just sort of buy in by default.

And Black Lives Matter is monetizing that fear. It's exactly what they're doing.

They're monetizing that fear. Yeah, it's a scary thing when multitudes of people can legitimize the racial bigotry and hatred towards a specific group just because they happen to be white.

And this absolute nonsense that a black person cannot be guilty of racism because they don't have any power and authority, well first of all there are many, there are multitudes of black people who have power and authority.

There are many black people who are millionaires. I mean, but as my friend

Dr. Robert J. Cameron, who is now in heaven with the Lord, black OPC pastor, he said racism is a sin problem, not a skin problem.

And it's interesting, he wrote a book on racism in the church called Last Pew on the

Left, and a major Christian publisher, very, very well -known

Christian publisher, rejected his manuscript and said to him, this is the finest unsolicited manuscript we've ever received, but we cannot publish it because we do not feel comfortable charging the black church along with the white with racism, which is what

Dr. Cameron did. He included everybody of every color in this problem. But we are now out of time, and I would love to have you guys back on the show.

In fact, if you could hold on the line so I could see if we could get our schedules matched together for another interview.

I want to thank you for being on the program. I want to remind our listeners that if you want to learn more about the

Just Thinking podcast, go to JustThinking .me, JustThinking .me. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater